President Obama on Leahy's truth commission proposal: I'm "looking forward" but "no one is above the law"
By SilentPatriot Tuesday Feb 10, 2009 7:00am
As Cernig wrote about yesterday, Senator Leahy has come out and publicly called for a truth commission to investigate the potential crimes committed during the Bush years. At last night's press conference, HuffPo's Sam Stein (how cool is that?!) asked President Obama whether he had given Leahy's proposal any thought and whether he would rule out any future prosecutions of Bush administration officials.
Question: Thank you, Mr. President. Today, Sen. Patrick Leahy [D-Vermont] announced that he wants to set up a truth and reconciliation committee to investigate the misdeeds of the Bush administration. He said that, before you turn the page, you have to read the page first.
Do you agree with such a proposal? And are you willing to rule out right here and now any prosecution of Bush administration officials?
Obama: I haven't seen the proposals, so I don't want to express an opinion on something that I haven't seen.
My view is also that nobody's above the law and, if there are clear instances of wrongdoing, that people should be prosecuted just like any ordinary citizen.
But that, generally speaking, I'm more interested in looking forward than I am in looking backwards. I want to pull everybody together, including, by the way, the -- all the members of the intelligence community who have done things the right way and have been working hard to protect America and I think sometimes are painted with a broad brush without adequate information.
So I will take a look at Sen. Leahy's proposal, but my general orientation is to say let's get it right moving forward.
That's a pretty lukewarm response, sure -- and certainly not one that those of us interested in justice and upholding American values would like to hear -- but I found it pretty interesting that he wouldn't dismiss it out of hand.
There has been some vigorous debate across the blogosphere as to whether or not going after the Bushies is a good idea. I tend to agree with AL's thoughtful opinion and analysis. While they certainly deserve it, securing convictions would be extremely difficult and require a huge amount of political capital. Where do you stand? Should we focus on the problems of the here and now? Can we not move forward until we address those past sins? Is there a feasible third way? Share your thoughts below.
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We have to move forward no matter what and if the justice dept wants to look into what happened in the past, that's fine with me. Would I like to see just about every member of the bush administration in jail, hell yes. But do I want the Obama administration all tied up in that right now, no. The financial crisis trumps everything at this moment, but there will be time ahead to investigate what went on for the past eight years.
I tend to agree, so long as Obama doesn't merely look forward. The misdeeds of the Bush cabal can NOT be brushed under the rug.
...obama WON'T be all tied up investigating these crooks -it's why we have this thing called the justice department in the 1st place.
yes, the financial crisis takes precedence -but the financial crisis itself needs to be investigated.
when your economy, at it's core, is a pyramid scheme, the money masters at the top can screw you anytime they please -and i do strongly suspect the financial crisis was to some extent orchestrated to keep us thrown off and busy...
please don't tell me there's too much work to do -it makes you sound like a stereotypical lazy american.
(i hope that wasn't too harsh patricia -i'm overall a big fan of your comments.)
I agree, let the justice department investigate all of it with attorneys who put justice before party. Hey, I'm not lazy, just slow moving sometimes. ;)
That's what we have a justice department for. Obama shouldn't have to burn one dime of political capital for these criminals to be brought to justice. Obama can be completely above the fray the justice department does it's job. It's not Obama's job to control the justice department, although the Bush administration did leave that impression.
The more of these criminals that are prosecuted the more respect we will regain from the rest of the world as a country that respects the rule of law. That is most important.
There are still people in DOJ who may have been at very least complacent during the escalation to the current economic crisis and other misdeeds brought by the Bush Administration. Once Holder has an opportunity to cleanse DOJ, then we will be able to proceed with investigations.
Besides that, DOJ should be investigating these matters, even if Obama hasn't given a directive. If any lawlessness goes unpunished, it simply leaves the door open for any criminally minded individual that takes public office. It may be a defense in the future in regards to precedence as well. "These crimes were not investigated in some of the worst case scenario's, what makes my crimes worthy of investigation?" I for one do not want to hear this as a defense from anyone.
right you are pop obama cant chew gum and walk at the same time!
I'll bet he can handle his apostrophes though!
well well an educated boob lol
We need to go after them, ruthlessly. Otherwise we're saying "You aren't above the law, but if you break the law, no-one will ever hold you to account."
Absolutely, otherwise we are implicitly condoning their actions. I want my America back! No more torture, spying on our citizens and hiding behind a cloak a constitutional fluff!
This precedent is THE ONLY way this country can begin to move forward. If the people are not satisfied that "no one is above the law", then nothing Obama does will be placed on terra firma. The rule of law is the foundation of this democracy. Obama does not have a choice here. He will do what's expected of him and what is appropriate under the law and his oath of office.
...don't expect them to be grateful, to sing "kumbaya", play pattycakes and make nice.
letting them off the hook empowers them -they will regroup and dream up new crimes.
Again, Obama was masterful in his comments here. It must begin with the belief that we are innocent until "proven" guilty - which will be proven as congress and a special prosecutor accumulates their evidence.
They need to begin with Kuchich's 38 articles of impeachment and most of their work (dates, times, precise words, etc.) can begin. The research has been done by Dennis and is there in the public record.
It would not be "kosher" for a president to overstep his AG on this one so what Obama said was proper protocol; however, he does need to move quickly on this because most of his base wants to see the rule of law reinstated ALONG WITH appropriate punishment for those who broke the law.
Then he needs to use more direct language. The republicans are going to twist his words to temper down his rhetoric. We can't be giving them the rope to hang ourselves with because they have become masters at spinning lies out of the ether.
... is saying he won't be running around screaming for their heads, but if the public calls for a thorough investigation and accountability, he'll follow up as the law allows.
I think if the DOJ goes after them, fine. Do I want the President to get all tied up in this? I'm not so sure. However, the man is a constitutional scholar and I feel he can't back away from it totally. I think we need some solid proof of getting the country back on track, mending some diplomatic fences, and generally making the USA somewhere to be proud of. That way, we will have the majority of the public behind us when the case is made for prosecution.
Kit Bond needs to be investigated and indicted for attempting to compromise Eric Holder to commit to doing something illegal with his asking for a promise to NOT hold Bush accountable.
Ironically, Kit Bond is Vice Chair of the Boxer's committee now; when he rubber stamped Bush's crimes, he was Chair of the committee - uh-oh! No damn wonder Kit is running scared like a convict who knows he's headed to jail.
Kit Bond's in a heap big trouble right now for soliciting to secure a promise which flies in the face of the rule of law in this country - asking a prosecutor to promise not to indict someone who is patently guilty.
Maybe his name will come in handy as he is asked to "Post BOND" soon?
i think the worst thing he could do right now is express a personal want to see anyone prosecuted.
rather he clearly implied that he would not obstruct or block such an investigation. thats all we need ask of him imo.
By their own admission, a congressman called the GOP the "Taliban". This guy needs his alzheimer's meds increased because he, for once, told the truth - something which we all know - that the GOP is, undoubtedly, our very own home-grown "enemy within". They've now admitted it.
So what to call this gang of thugs and obstructionistas? Grand Old Taliban (GOT thugs) or AOT (america's own taliban)?
CRIMINALS.
... are you out of your mind?
we're not going to hold crooks accountable, because it might be too much work to do?
it's like i said below on cernig's leahy thread: the best thing we can do is to collectively keep hammering obama over this "let's move forward" nonsense...
thank god the f.b.i. and the justice department didn't say "let's just move forward" here in illinois -they threw governor ryan in a paddy wagon for crimes he committed before he was even governor.
the more obama covers for the crooks in the federal government, the more everyone will start wondering if obama himself is as dirty as blagojevich, and obama will be a one term president...
but the even bigger issue is that if you let these crooks off the hook, they're going to regroup and do something far worse.
when ford pardoned all the crooks, he condemned my generation to the hell we find ourselves in today.
don't believe me?
google: KENNEDY ASSASSINATION, WATERGATE, IRAN-CONTRA, 9/11, ABU GHRAIB, etc., etc.
then look at the names of the players involved, and connect the dots.
so, no, silentpatriot, we're not going to play pattycakes and make nice anymore.
the truth is froggy they have allready been recycled into the obama administration!
Go ahead, name names...
buzz off sonny you bother me! kind of like a knat buzzing around a hounds behind!
Seriously, I want to hear some names. Are you telling me you don't have any?
well beings you know how to use apostraphys id assume youd know that the obamas adimistation just the clinton bunch recycled with a few repigs thrown in for good measure , i dont need to name them all you should recall them from memory, you know the guys who managed to starve thousands of iranian children with embargoes , who sold america out with nafta , who sent drones into iraq to kill civillians , who bombed imaginary wmd factorys in the desert, long before bush decided to murder millions need i go on or do you need a road map to identify the fashists in our government, ? if youd wanted the clinton government back in power why didnt yah just vote hillary in as president ? youd got bill in the bargain!
That way you can be clear, non-confrontational, and provide solid information for the millions of Americans that remain reliant on MSM for their news. I'd err on the side of more information then less.
cant help it if some wont listen!
Ok, I'm not super happy with some of the Obama appointments, but are you saying that:
(Hillary) Clinton, Geithner, Holder, Salazar, Vilsak, Gregg, Solis, LaHood, Shinseki, Napolitano, Duncan, etc. are somehow on the same evil fascist scale as the following Nixon/Reagan/Bush Sr. retreads that showed up in the Bushco administration?
Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Negroponte, Bolton, Norton, Snow, Feith, Bremer et al.
Cause I'm thinking that Obama's cabinet picks, while underwhelming, are nowhere near the same scale of evil as these jerks.
The president handled it fine and he didn't need to take a position one way or the other, or even say that it will be up to his DOJ, because the investigations Leahy's alluding to are congressional investigations (the commission in question would be established by Congress)... so Pres. Obama wouldn't have any say over it anyway. After all, this is an issue of checks and balances, specifically, the Legislative Branch checking the Executive Branch (albeit retroactively in the case of the Bush administration).
I was thinking the same thing last night. Leahy moves forward with his investigations while (seemingly) BO stays above the fray. A pretty good strategy.
If congress does not vigorously investigate this patent illegality, then it becomes complicit. What sort of message does that send to the world?
...is that obama KNOWS DAMN WELL these people are crooks, but can't proceed to prosecute until he's sure the american people have his back.
obama's also probably getting intense pressure from u.s. intelligence NOT to prosecute. even likable spooks like john mclaughlin are against prosecution -i saw him on c-span the other day.
and while i truly respect most of the hard-working people in u.s. intelligence, i think sometimes when people are inside that bubble, they can't see the forest for the trees...
Barak HUSSAIN Obama is eleeetist with his fancy sentancis and anzers. The reel answer is TAX CUTS! Why has nobody tried that yet.
I REALLY hope that was sarcasm...
He was usin' a whole bunch of them reeel bigg kollidgj wurds. Fancy schmantcy.
We'll try and convict the criminals in the Bush Administration, send them to prison ...
... and let them face the consequences of overcrowding in prisons because we've been shipping 'tax cuts' off to the rich instead of funding infrastructure (yes, boys and girls, police and prisons are infrastructure).
In the end what will make me feel better is the total failure and demise of the Republican Party. Prosecuting the Bush Admin full boar will do nothing but keep the Republican base strong and give them something to fight for. This is a very important thing to realize. They still have Rush, Hannity and about 30 other Republicans on the airwaves to help them. Plus, think of the money that will be spent. the Republicans spent 40 million trying to get Clinton, so how much do you think going after 20-30 people will be? And the American people don't want it, they are more concerned in the "here and now", not the past.
Believe me, I would love nothing better than to see Karl Rove in the slammer but I'd much rather put the money into other causes such as the economy.
There will be another day for justice. But right now we have to unfuck our economy.
And that unfu*king is going to take a hell of a lot of work by everyone right now.
That's going to take a lot of industrial-strength vaseline.
... the bit where someone in the Bush Administration said they'd be creating new realities, and while the press was reporting on THOSE, they'd be off elsewhere creating other new realities.
In frat boy speak, that's "We'll have a beer bash, vomit all over your living room, and while you're cleaning that up, we'll move to the kitchen and vomit all over THAT ..."
Both the economy and the issue of torture and illegal wiretaps are piles of vomit. We don't have the option to ignore one and just clean up the other.
Look, I truly want to see these criminals wearing lipstick while washing their cellmate's dirty drawers. But if Obama turns the economy around and Bush goes free...guess what? Obama's a success. If Bush goes to jail and most of us are unemployed...
"If Bush goes to jail and most of us are unemployed..."..the Republicans come back, Obama gets blamed for being vindictive, not forward thinking and not serving the best interests of the country. It seems to me there is a vendetta atmosphere which I can understand but we have to look ahead. The Democrats need to change the way the game is played. We need to be less petty. Part of the reason the Republicans lost was because of their bitterness. If we do the same thing we will go down the same path.
I'm am constantly nagged by the thought all the "elite," secret handshake, skull and bones member-types, who feel that they are above the laws of normal citzens WOULD BE RIGHT! Do money, power, and connections make people immune!? We need to draw a distinct, if symbollic, line. When we elected Obama, we announced that we wanted a contempletive, law-abiding government. STEP ONE!
it's not like we put obama in, now we can all just kick back and watch him knock these guys over like dominoes.
we have to remain engaged; it's a fluid and ever-evolving process...
STEP TWO is to get our story more or less straight, and organize like we did leading up to the election, except twice as hard.
because god knows the republicans have been doing a way better job mobilizing since the election than we have...
Simple answer. We are a country that embraces the rule of law and not the rule of man. When people violate our laws and international laws, it is not political to prosecute them. Saying otherwise is just political misdirection. Bill Clinton should not have lied about sex and that was officially addressed by prosecutors. Why are we the least bit shy about violations that have resulted in countless deaths and tortures? Mind boggling.
What you are saying is true, but the last thing Republicans need is a martyr.
Obama MUST protect and defend the Constitution as he has sworn to do. There is no option here.
Both bush and cheney have admitted in front of millions of people that they authorized the use of torture. It is a well known fact that they lied the US into a war. They allegedly threatened the UK if they divulged that the US was using extreme rendition on prisoners.
The entire bush administration needs to be investigated, indicted, convicted and sentenced for their participation in these crimes.
What the hell else do you need?
The rest of the world is watching and waiting to see what Obama does. Other countries already have contingency plans to prosecute if the US does not. The UN is even looking into prosecuting.
What the hell else do you need?
"Other countries already have contingency plans to prosecute if the US does not. The UN is even looking into prosecuting."
I'll believe THAT when I see it.
... leading Democrats view this as, "What will Republican voters think if we pursue legal proceedings? They'll say we're out for revenge!"
How about, "What will our constituents think if we don't pursue legal proceedings?"
We'll say you're complicit and vote your sorry asses out of office, top to bottom. Reid, Pelosi, Feinstein, the lot of you.
Bush would have said the same thing as Obama, just not as eloquent.
The state, and its operators, protect their own.
"That's a pretty lukewarm response, sure -- and certainly not one that those of us interested in justice and upholding American values would like to hear -- but I found it pretty interesting that he wouldn't dismiss it out of hand."
Good god man you are desperate to believe aren't you...politicians never dismiss anything out out hand, Bush would give you the exact same answer!
Face it! A corrupt oligarchy is NEVER EVER going to police itself. How naive do you have to be around here? There will never be any truth, only whitewash. When in the history of the planet was the bottom ever gotten to in any scandal? Wake up!
It's is all a fraud, from Main Street to Wall Street to Pennsylvania Ave. My name is Big John and I told you so.
He has left himself plenty of space to allow Leahy to move forward and to allow any prosecutions in the future, if that occurs. I believe that Cheney/Bush broke enough laws to make it fairly easy to find something prosecutable and provable. But, a great many Americans still don't understand how much damage they did to our Constitutional rights, and how much of our freedom is at risk under the right circumstances (say, a little civil unrest breaks out?).
I believe there would be a much better chance of convicting these creeps if we went back and completely investigated the occurrences on September 11, 2001. If Americans really knew for sure what the causes were for 9/11, what actually transpired and who was really responsible, then the notion that the rest of what Cheney/Bush did was for national security would dissolve - and the way would be cleared for indictments and prosecution.
Putting these jokers in jail will not fix the problem. Our system of checks and balances has a big gaping hole in it. Congress is absolutely powerless to stop a rogue administration and we all know it. Our Constitution needs to be amended. I think we need to give the governors of the states the ability to remove a President. Maybe a 75% vote of the governors and the administration is removed.
This shows the importance of increasing viable 3rd party (4th, 5th, and 6th for that matter) candidates in public office positions to challenge the RepubliCrats power stranglehold.
Which problem will not be fixed by prosecuting the Bush war criminals?
The system of checks and balances? There is nothing wrong with that system, the problem lies in the corrupted two party rule.
And would you say the same about a common criminal? "Putting these murderers and robbers in jail will not fix the problem."
And there is nothing wrong with the Constitution either, it just needs to be enforced. Impeaching presidents for political reasons remains a problem, but if the entire pile of manure is brought to light, the American public will do the right thing and get rid of these bozos.
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.
Exactly.
Nobody will ever accuse you of a suicidal moment.
Not prosecuting criminals condones their criminal actions.
Not prosecuting criminals says to future potential criminals that their actions will not be punished.
Not prosecuting criminals will simply lead to future crimes.
It's called being:
An Accessory After the Fact.
shout it from the rooftops.
it's like i said before, if obama's intent is to help these crooks get off the hook, obama will be a one term president. the public will naturally begin to wonder if he's as dirty as blagojevich. and it doesn't help keeping that slimeball "wormtongue" impersonator rahm emmanuel around...
that is a very good description of Rahm, Wormtongue. perfect.
i trust rahm emmanuel less than i trust karl rove -that's no lie.
sphinx posted a comment the other day about emmanuel supposedly being a dual citizen, and emmanuel's dad likely being in irgun.
that's fine, i suppose... for chief of staff to benjamin netanyahu.
but chief of staff to to the president of the u.s.a. -nope, don't trust him.
Really? You trust Karl Rove over Emmanuel?
{ Deleted, Offensive. SiteMonitor}
i'd also add that if we intend to let the crooks off the hook simply because the scope of their misdeeds is so enormous it'll take too much time to prosecute...
... then what we are saying to future would-be crooks is that if you want to avoid capture, commit so much crime it overwhelms everyone.
f*cking brilliant, don't you think?
The fact you can put two brain cells together overwhelms me.
Dons, that was low and unwarranted. The rule of law should be the rule of law, no matter how hard or unpopular it would be to keep to it. That's the very basis of the Enlightenment and of the US.
"The word 'but' negates all that goes before it." Same politics, different decade. A bit disappointed I am.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYtlpG0hb38
The crimes need to be unearthed and exposed to sunlight more than we really need them in jail. Yes, it would be satisfying, but exposing the crimes is more important.
either the bush crimes are exposed and charges filed, or there is complicity in the cover-up.
this issue is bigger than obama and his presidency, by far. and he needs to do the right thing, yet his hedging on justice is a sign that he hopes the story peters out eventually.
Let us have a huge TRUTH RUG.
Then we have a huge TRUTH BROOM.
Then we take all of the TRUTH we can find such as:
People lied us into two wars of aggression, a crime against peace, the first war crime, from which all others flow.
People committed torture which is a war crime.
There are other truths we might as well get to them too.
Contractors have committed massive fraud in the 'Wars'.
The Banksters and the Rating Agencies have been committing massive fraud in our incinerated financial system for YEARS.
They have lost trillions and we are being bled dry making it up to them.
There is more pesky TRUTH but let's leave the list at that.
-----
Let us find ALL of this CRIMINAL TRUTH, take our TRUTH BROOM and SWEEP it under our TRUTH RUG.
That way we will know wherein the TRUTH lies, under our TRUTH RUG.
We can be happy and not worry. We can go back to watching our TVs.
There will still be ONE TRUTH that we will NOT be able to sweep under our RUG.
That TRUTH will be that WE, AS A NATION, ARE CORRUPT.
can we ask him if he's located the 2.5 trillion that went missing on 9/10/01?
Looking Ahead!
Leahy's "panel" will create a 'report' which will vindicate everybody, so why have the fuuking thing to begin with, since they'll not have any authority to do anything, anyway...
Let's stop worrying about the delicate feelings of the Republicans and start worrying about the rule of law.
Obama has to do nothing besides order an investigation. He can still concentrate on the economy, he has several agencies which will do the actual work. Frankly it's insulting to imply that he's incapable of doing more than one thing at a time.
When our dear Ms. Pelosi said impeachment was off the table that was a message sent to all the BushCo criminals that they were free to continue on their crime spree since nobody was going to do anything about it. By not criminally investigating (and I can't believe we're already down to "truth commissions") you're saying, "yup, you got away with it." I, for one, don't want ANY criminal to get away with it. If it's good enough for the methhead on the street, it's good enough for the meatheads on Wall Street.
No-one is above the law= they are not getting away with it.
Let's move on=I've got a million problems on my hands right now and my admininistration will not be JUST about bringing these fools to justice.
Why was Jeffrey Dahmer jailed? Why was O.J. Simpson prosecuted? Shouldn't the district attorneys have been "looking forward" instead of living in the past by trying to attain justice for criminal acts that had already happened?
I'm all for looking forward in political terms. I'm dead set against turning a blind eye to criminal acts committed by government officials.
If the new administration allows the politicization of the Justice Department, the revealing of a covert CIA agent's identity, the theft of elections, the use of torture, and numerous other misdeeds to go unpunished, what they've done is establish precedents that allow future administrations to continue committing crimes while hiding behind the cloak of "official duties." What would such precedents say in terms of "looking forward"
well, actually, they officially are declared dead in the mountains of afghanistan...
It's like they're the Fremen in those Afghan mountains.
next time anyone feeds us this "let's move forward" crap -remind them the f.b.i. just reopened the early 80's tylenol-poisoning case. and like i said before, remind them that gov. ryan of illinois got tossed in a paddy wagon for crimes committed nearly 2 decades ago, before he was even elected governor...
Surely we can walk straight and chew gum and the same time. Obama's comment that he is looking forward or anyone's concern about not wanting to irritate the right wing are just excuses for not protecting our Constitution.
We MUST prosecute ANYONE who breaks our laws. Our democracy depends on it.
obama seems to forget -these guys don't play nice, and they never will. they're the american taliban, just like pete sessions said. so, why negotiate with terrorists?
furthermore, the far right, dogmatic cabal at the heart of their movement has been in "cornered animal" mode since the day kennedy died.
I would be very dissappointed by this if I actually thought it would go any other way.
If this were just about George Bush getting a blow job I would say, hey let's move forward, no big deal.
But this is about an administration lying repeatedly and those lies resulted in INVADING another country for no apparent reason causing ongoing misery, destruction and death. Other issues: torture, rendition, illegal wiretapping, illegal politicization of governmental agencies etc., etc..
I mean, those are a bit more serious than illicit sex, right? If the Obama administration does not support and participate in, at the least, Congressional hearings Obama will have no right to proclaim to the rest of the world that America follows the rule of law. We will have have become a rogue nation. You can also bet that without some sort of investigations and punishment for their lawlessness the Republicans will go even further next time they are in power.
Pres. Obama is doing the smart thing and letting congress take the lead: so watch Leahy, Finegold, Waxman, Kucinich, Conyers, etc. haul the Bushies into the spotlight and hopefully to jail. Obama can then concentrate on the people's business and defer to congress and his AG for the convictions and exposing Bush misdeeds.
Perhaps he could make comments that would be supportive of this position.
If this did go to court, I'm pretty sure the defense for bush, et al, would be that bush's attorney at the time told him everything he was doing was "legal". I'm not an attorney so I don't know how that would be met by the court.
Shows Yoo and Addington were simply catering the laws to meet the directive of Bush/Cheney. I would hope the courts could see right through it.
of those who authorized and/or committed torture in the name of the U.S. in the fight against a group of religious terrorists; and
Given the state of mind of many of those who believe that actions taken on behalf of their country by Bush administration officials were war crimes which cannot be satisfied by anthing short of prosecution, conviction, and punishment of those involved;
There is no action the Obama administration can take which will not enrage, much less satisfy, any person who is firmly in either of the two camps I describe above.
Obama inherited a bad economy. Would you have him concentrate on restoring the economic health of the country or prosecuting those who put us in the position we are in? He inherited a dysfunctional and immoral foreign policy. Would you rather him concentrate on putting our priorities in order abroad and restoring our moral conduct, or prosecuting those who put us in the position we are in.
If Obama were to adopt the prosecutorial priority in either domestic or foregin policy, he is likely to last one term, and leave both our foreign policy and domestic policy in much the same shape as when he inherited it.
If he adopts the first priority and puts our house in order we still have the option of dealing with what got us to this point. They cannot very well leave the country now, can they?
Truth be told, if we follow down the rabbit hole, we are likely to yield little of satisfaction.
that is the biggest load of crap.
If the Constitution isn't worth defending in court of Law, or if the Rule of Law is something that isn't worth pursuing, because it would distract from economic necessities,
then it sure isn't worth keeping at all then, and it sure isn't worth dying for in illegal - and fabricated - wars.
for reinforcing and missing my point. I knew you had it in you.
This is a matter for the courts to decide and it doesn't involve the President.
One of the biggest abuses of power carried out by the Bush Administration was to influence the Justice Department to carry out proscecutions. The Justice Department is supposed to act independently. It would be wrong/borderline a criminal act for Obama to get involved in this.
These people should be proscecuted; but, Obama needs to stay out of it; or else, it could taint the process.
You're presenting a false either/or choice. Why can't it be both?
Moreover, I think you know you're setting up a strawman.
_________ (Copy and Pasted from a bullfrog post...) _________
already we're being told we ought somehow not hold criminals accountable; that it's time for the nation to "heal".
let's see... how has that worked out so far...
KENNEDY ASSASSINATED: public told to accept warren commission report, even as the bodies of anyone with any pertinent info are piling up all over the country. public told no one in gov't had anything to do with it. public told it's best for the nation to "heal".(2003 ABC poll reveals 70% of americans do not believe warren commission report. this number has surely increased with the exponential advent of the internet.)
RESULT: criminals get off the hook; are allowed to regroup; public is denied truth. vietnam war escalates, 58,000 u.s. service men and women as well as untold countless vietnamese civilians die FOR NO GOOD REASON.
WATERGATE: many of the same characters suspected of being involved in dallas in '63, including e. howard hunt and richard nixon himself, turn up anew. this time they are caught stealing info from the democrats in d.c... public is told by nixon's successor, gerald ford that it's "time for the nation to heal", pardons nixon for crimes he never confesses to committing.
RESULT: criminals get off the hook; are allowed to regroup; public is denied the truth. americans never learn what the watergate burglars were after (rumored to be info about "that bay of pigs" thing), americans never learn what nixon knew and when he knew it. republicans lose presidential election in '76, reportedly work a backroom deal with iran to undermine carter, reagan voted into office.
IRAN-CONTRA: by the time this one comes up, these guys are really cocky. oliver north turns the proceedings into a circus, john poindexter taunts americans by lighting up a cigar in senate hearings.
RESULT: criminals get off the hook; are allowed to regroup; public is denied the truth. sure, some guys get a slap on the wrist, but h.w. later pardons the whole rogue's gallery, and no one ever learns what reagan knew, and when he knew it. republicans spend 140 million dollars of taxpayer money investighating whether or not h.w.'s successor got a b.j.; bush jr. elected in 2000.
9/11, IRAQ INVASION, ABANDONMENT OF THE GENEVA CONVENTIONS, ABANDONMENT OF HABEUS CORPUS, THE TRASHING OF THE CONSTITUTION: this one's still being written
RESULT: well, what's it gonna be?
i'll tell you what it might be: if obama is serious about letting these guys off the hook this time, he's condemning your kids to a fate worse than our own.
it is also worth noting that we are officially no longer a nation of laws, and that the jeffersonian democracy is officially dead.
(H/T to bullfrog)
.
President Obama said:
How do we differentiate between right and wrong if for not the ability to see what were the failings of one so as to compare the difference? If we didn't look at the past to make this comparison, what would we compare/contrast? Lastly, how does one change course if not for the information gained by reviewing the past?
.
"...members of the intelligence community who have done things the right way and have been working hard to protect America and I think sometimes are painted with a broad brush without adequate information."
Might that be a good reason to support a truth commission? The reason we paint members of the intelligence community with a "broad brush" is that we haven't had any information. Government officials, including a senator from Illinois, have been keeping important information from us. If you want us to form informed beliefs, edify us please!
What is this bunk about choosing between prosecutions and "moving forward"? There is no logical reason we can't do both. A special prosecutor and our criminal justice system address one problem as they were designed to do and Obama, and whoever else needed, do the "moving forward" part.
What part of our national system is over burdened? Can the media walk and chew gum? If not, so what? Are we really just limited by our national attention span? It seems to have been able to handle multiple national crises while still being strangely concerned with whichever attractive young white woman seems to have been missing at the time.
When we send that kid away for ten years for having some cocaine we don't seem to worry about "moving forward." Why can't our national system give torturers the same "justice" as the perpetrators of far less heinous crimes?
Can they think and write?
Yea for a minute there I thought I was on Politico.
I feel like we have a lot of new Bush defenders. It seems the only way to support Obama on this is to defend Bush. Talk about spin.
We also won't have time to prosecute any wall street villains, corporate cons, or the former department of treasury that funneled money to their former companies.
I think some people are forgetting an important point that has been thrown around on this blog before: Congressional and Senate members may themselves be guilty if they were informed about the torture program. Their behavior is beginning to prove that theory.
Nothing to see here people just move along.
Bush appears to have covered himself with the Democratic leadership. What did Pelosi and Reid know and when did they know it?
Why did the Democratic leadership stall or stop congressional investigations? Why was impeachment really "off the table"?
Was the Democratic leadership aware of "enhanced interrogation"? They're complicity should not be protected by "national secrecy," yet that is the excuse. Again.
This is where progressives need to help out Obama. People who care about exposing the abuses of BushCo need to start flooding their elected officials in boxes with e mails demanding investigation and justice. They can light up the Congressional switchboards with impassioned pleas for truth and justice. This should be the number one net roots cause. We can quickly take the partisanship out of any backlash Obama will get from the Rescumlicans. Obama will be able to say its the will of the people to see that BushCo crimes are investigated and prosecuted and never repeated again. Only exposure will enable safeguards to be put in place and help to re define what Bush and Cheney have un defined. Perhaps Leahy would be smart to formulate a web site where folks can go and express their outrage over the capital crimes committed, in Americas name, during Bushes reign of terror.
The Obama administration is still refusing to hand over information on the people who were renditioned and who are being held, based upon security concerns. Same argument as Cheney.
Obama better be careful, he is starting to look dishonest.
This is what we mean when we say, you and your whitehouse better get out of the way!
"That's a pretty lukewarm response, sure -- and certainly not one that those of us interested in justice and upholding American values would like to hear -- but I found it pretty interesting that he wouldn't dismiss it out of hand." ...
Would that have been your reaction last summer or fall?
I think not.
but this is a question of whether we uphold the law or not. How did "looking forward, not backward" work for the Russians? At least the Germans were forced to come face to face with their crimes, it has taught them humility. That's what we need as well.
Quit playing politics with matters of this scale. If Obama is worried about spending political capital in the US, what does he think his pussyfooting does to political capital abroad?
He can forget all of his grandiose ideas about being a player in international politics. People like Mugabe, etc. will simply laugh at him and point to Guantanamo, torture and letting the criminals get away.
Letting the Bushites off scot free is not an option.
Actually, it is the ONLY "option."
There's no way the Dims are gonna let there be a full and complete accounting of the Bushevik abuses. Wouldn't be prudent...
Besides, no jury in the country would convict people who claimed that they were 'just pertektin' the cunchry.' You couldn't empanel a jury which would not contain at least one person who would defend the Bushies to the very end...
There's only one way the Busheviks will ever pay for their crimes...
True until proven otherwise. We all know they broke myriad laws. Do something about it, Obama.
Truth commission? Sheeit. That's what self-acknowledged banana republics do. That's what South Africa did to avoid civil war. Is that what people are afraid of?
Might as well appointed himself the Truth Czar of the Department of the Homeland.
"And what will you do with the truth when you get it Mr. Czar?"
"Nothing. Oh, wait. I'll right a book. Just like the 911 commission. Yea that's the ticket. Then I'll sell it to the American people "The truth about the worst thing ever, funded by your tax dollars, on sale for $29.95."
politics is not about right and wrong.
We know intuitively that the law was broken. But the economy, and a good portion of the country is broken too.
Politically, this simply is not a battle worth fighting. It will bog down the Administration, and poison the atmosphere completely.
The more expedient way is to change policy, and if the right wing balks...well...I'm sure we have evidence alllll over the place that the Administration broke the law. If that evidence leaks out...oh welllll...sucks to be the GOP.
Taking the "moral crusade" route isn't going to get you anywhere. Instead, you play HARDBALL.
T-Errible huh!
If bad things were done to bad people then to damn bad...if they were done on foriegn soil then even better!
I am not naive enough to think that bad people will play fair. You should not give a bad person the courtesy to have the first punch. and yes I voted for O'Bama. His presence and the civil manner in which he acts will bring respect from good men, but also gives bad men an opening to exploit. (Dangerous) They care nothing about goodness and decency. So the way your Repug frenimies handled the situation is more than likely the best way to do it. In simpler terms as not to confuse the more enlightened among you I dont care if they broke the law in pursuit of the enemy. Maybe someone would just like to get even when the best thing for everybody is just to forgive and forget and life goes on. And so will the war, ok.
When you look at how the Thugs and CheneyBushCo acted, I'd say lesson learned, but all I see you do here is giving it lip service.
You still think the same bad people have been telling you the truth about the bullshit they agitated for and got us into, so I guess, you are still having a hard time coming to grips with that. What you are REALLY saying is: "I am not naive enough to think...bad people will play fair, but I believe that the bad people who ran this country into the ground told me the truth."
"They care nothing about goodness and decency" perfectly describes the assholes who made up shit about other countries so the could enrich themselves and have turned this country into a Romanesque nightmare (as in the fall of the Empire), ie the Thugs, aided and abetted by the spineless 'Yes, dear' Democrats.
What are you doing taking my words out of context and reconfiguring the statement to suit you personal tastes?
What you said is simply that. changing the context. Mute point. Your point being... yeah do it again [Deleted. Name calling of another poster. Not allowed-Sitemonitor].
Dude. Like I say in my other post to you, not too bright. Use a dictionary. I do know what you mean, but you apparently don't. Not worth any more of my time...
'Mute point" hahahahahahahaha!
Retreat is the better part of valor, could be. See Ya!
The ball is in the DOJ's court. Holder decides if he's going to appoint a special prosecuter.
The correct process is to investigate, then charge, then prosecute, convict, sentence and imprison.
We need to start at the beginning.
Holder has a lot of work to do, but he's only been in office like three days, right?
Yeah thats right since when did DOJ enforce international treaties? Seriously tell me I would truly like to know where yo came up with that? Thanks.
Mistertroy.
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land."
So, since the beginning, really.
On the other hand, Obama should be acting now to reverse the precedent of extended executive power.
I don't know where he can start on that. Any suggestions?
By the way, what did you all think of Obama cutting off Helen Thomas when she was trying to talk about Israel's nukes?
It just confirms what everyone already knows.
Much as I admire Helen, it's time for her to retire. When you hear her ask the President is there are any countries in the Middle East with nukes....well, it's time to hang 'em up.
Ship 'em off to someplace thrilling for an extended rendition -- to, say, the International Criminal Court. Maybe they could be convinced they were going to a dinner in their honour.
{ Deleted, All Caps. SiteMonitor.}
If the ICC would allow evidence gained by enhanced interrogation techniques used on Bush/Cheney. I wonder if Egypt and all the other nations of torture would like to get their hands on these guys?
Now there are only a couple things that I've been frustrated by in Obama's admin so far, but check out how he gets smeared in this article.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090210/ap_on_go_...
Ri-damn-diculous.
Let's look at the "down side" of prosecuting Bush and Cheney and the lot...
1) It would be embarrassing to the former administration officials? GOOD- THEY DESERVE TO BE EMBARRASSED!
2) It would be expensive...well, considering how much we are spending to try to revive the economic mess they left us, this is small potatoes, and would provide employment for court stenographers, news cameramen, etc.
3) They might never be convicted....If these guys aren't convicted, somebody ain't doing their job!
Prosecuting thm would send a message to the entire world...THAT AMERICA DOES NOT EXCUSE CRIMINALS, regardless of who they are, how rich or connected or what offices they held. Right now our image in the rest of the world is in the shit-pit...a great deal of hich was caused by these bums...this would certainly do worlds of good to regain the respect of other nations.
Of course, they can always escape to the "ranch" in Paraguay.....
{Deleted, advocating violence. SiteMonitor}
{ Deleted, All Caps. Commenting policy. SiteMonitor}
Leahy's proposal is nothing more then a smoke screen for letting the criminals go. He wants to avoid any prosecutions and prosecutions of the worst crimes committed in America IS what is needed!
If you want to be a country that turns a blind eye to US state torture and one that protects criminals from sadistic war crimes then by all means ignore the crimes. First you defeated Saddam and then you became him. Hell whats a few sliced up genitials. USA! USA!
right ! go team go!its fourth and ten we only have two more countrys to subjugate! afganistan and iran! our lives will be soooo much better when the bush plan ends in victory! rah rah
Hey... I cannot believe that laws imposed by an international treaty are punishible in an American courtroom. As long as our boys did not loot, rape, and plunder then there is more than likely, no clear violation, and you should rememeber what I say because the same rules do not apply the same to aggressive known participants as they do to common citizenry I am pretty sure of that and I hope you have read and understand this. Furthermore I think your acqusations are fictional and only exist in your moronic brains. Shall we call Interpol, and tell them how you manipulate american minds?(I think they more than likely know)You are so anxious to punish your own and embrace the enemy (hell you even let them into our colleges). So then you should not feel insulted when your neighbor calls you an idiot. Sorry I cannot sympathize with you or all of the misery you will witness because of your beliefs. How will people like you sur vive with no government to protect you, even though you may not deserve what they do for you and the chances they take when something goes wrong.
it is against our own laws to break treaties...It's the law. So it doesn't matter what you believe.
And they did...rape, loot and plunder, murdered and tortured. All armies do. Some of these assholes are so off the hook, they rape women from their own side, with impunity. And usually, the victim is punished for it. That's how fucked up we are.
The entire aggression against Afghanistan and Iraq were illegal acts and the only purpose they have served is to enrich a few sociopathic asshole war profiteers while killing and maiming hundreds of thousands of people in both countries, emptying our coffers, and sacrificing and maiming tens of thousands of soldiers, who were duped into to believing the same bullshit you apparently do.
Not too bright, are you?
where, show me. I am supposed to take your word for that huh. Maybe if I was foolish. I do not believe that the occurences you speak of happened as much as you are wanting me to belive.(rape, looting and pluder at leats not by ours) These things are going to happen but can you hold world leaders accountable for individual actions of soldiers in the military in which they serve? Boy your going to put a lot of people behind bars arnt you? Of course you have to have criminals so that you can justify law enforcements paychecks dont you? These aggressive acts... you are generlizing there are you speaking of the war or indvidual actions of inadequate soldiers fighting the war? War is bad but dictators are worse whether 1 or 1million. that is the democrat in you seeking a way to punish someone that may have personally offended YOU!
But you did say the entire actions so therfore your a pacifist arguing with someone of differnt orientation. No I am not a troublemaker but someone that bloodies me will not go unscathed sorry. You say just let them run over us? That is OK? This is what I get out of your argument. You just do not have the stomach for war is all nothing else. And I am supposed to defend people such as YOU? No way.
YOU truly flatter youself.
SOMEBODY needs to step up and start the investigations. Leahy? Wexler? Conyers? ANYBODY.
Show us there is still justice in America. Please....
Long time lurker, first time poster.
I wonder how many of the people here who favor such measures against the Bush administration, particularly those who use the (admirable!) mantra, "*No-one* is above the law" [Deleted. Sorry to bust into your first post, but you are off topic with your query. Feel free to launch it in an immigration thread, or an open thread. We have Open Threads every night at 8:30 pm Pacific time-Sitemonitor]
I'm getting so tired of this "looking forward and not looking back" saw. Obama's starting to sound like Mark McGwire. By prosecuting the ones responsible for torture and breaking Constitutional laws, Obama would be telling the world that in the future (see, looking forward here) no administration will be able to violate laws the way the Bush administration has done.
I have to believe that he knows that but it's still annoying that he keeps this inane statement live.
I've a post over at Newshoggers I won't be submitting to C&L. I hope the mods forgive me a bit of blogwhoring but it's apposite to the topic. I'm hugely disappointed in those framing the choice as either/or and suggesting that therefore we need to "move forward" and give Bush crimes a free pass.
Here's what the debate boils down to in their framing:
Do you believe the Rule of Law or winning political horseraces is more important?
The argument that we "move forward" without prosecutions is just to say that the latter is more important. Should we throw out the Rule of Law because its "hard work" or because we think it might make us unpopular with lawbreakers? If you've any principles at all, the obvious answer should be "no."
The obvious next step is to say "we can have both", that observing the Rule of Law will win the political horseraces. After all, that's in large part what got Obama elected last Fall - the promise that he had principles. How much more electable and popular, therefore, would be proof of that promise?
Regards, C
Is really the best approach as AL put it:
"War crimes prosecutions would serve no useful purpose if they result in acquittals which are then spun by the Republicans and the media as vindication for the conduct itself. The goal here should not be maximal punishment, but maximal deterrence."
...and so would be more effective than inevitable high-level acquittals that prosecutions would generate.
So a Truth commission could deter future administrations.
Also, we owe the world community some reassurance to vow that our country will never again torture a prisoner and that we will in the future comply with international agreements, many of which the u.s. has been active in creating.
This last point is most important if we are to convince the world we have regained our credibility and seriously commit to Geneva Conventions. Conduct in war separates the goons from the greater dignities of humane restraints of conduct.
So Obama's implied desire to move forwardis a dangerous oversight in healing the deeply wounded global community and recover from our sense of despair, shame and embarrassment of the brutalities of the bush regime.
This gives other nations no clue this administration wouldn't be just as brutal behind the scenes as the bush nightmare...so they (and we) have no reason to believe O's admin won't fall back on the same bad habits, and so far as I know, he has NOT vowed to not use torture. That is a clear signal to Thugs next time to invade and pillage any country they wish, including THIS ONE.
It would be a HUGE missed opportunity if he prevents Leahy from his Truth committee approach when the benefits would be so profound.
Personally, if Obama does not follow this remedy I will have given up on seeing him as this self-implied deeply thinking person he seems to believe he is.
In addition, much as I trust Biden when he also said "move forward" (sweep it under the carpet) my opinion and warm feeling for the man fell off considerably.
You say do it again dear chap we will absorb any wounds you give us. That is what happens when your are not loyal to your countrymen and if they are like you then I may not be loyal. This fighting among us will end us. that simple.
You want the persecution of your fellow countrymen for imagined crimes, actions that were not even true torture, humorous, but not torture.
are dead inside.
yes
We can not let these criminals walk away from this. If we do, we only have ourselves to blame when it happens again. If the GOP ever gets into power again they will finish what Bush started. A decade ago I would have never believed that something like the Patriot act would be law in America.
We where labeled UN Americans because we wouldn't get board with that lunatics war plan, they blamed the people who had no voice for the housing crisis when Bush claimed credit for so many people owning their own homes under his leadership, every time he gave a statement he was followed out by republicans like they were a pack of hunting dogs yet during elections none of them would claim to be republicans( Cantor on Hardball).
I don't care if the repubs call me vindictive, petty, partisan, or all the other labels they come up with when they're out of favor. I want justice.
Forgiveness just aint in the cards this time.
I was able to attend the Eric Holder AG nomination hearings in D.C. a few days before the inauguration. I heard Holder say "no one is above the law" so many times I stopped counting.
Unless we witness those in the Bush administration who created and disseminated false WMD intelligence, send tens of thousands into Iraq base on lies, created an environment for a genocide to take place in Iraq, the Lancet reports that over a million of Iraqi people have died as a direct result of the invasion, 5 million refugees, outed Plame, undermined our Justice system etc.
The very least our Reps and the Obama administration owe those who needlessly died (both Iraqi people and Americans) in a war based on a "pack of lies" is to hold those guilty of these crimes accountable
As a nation if those responsible for these crimes are not held accountable we will witness once again that there are many people above the law and that we have several justice systems in this country and they are not just.
The Obama administration should follow the evidence and prosecute or continue to watch our nation rot from within.
Didn't I read recently somewhere that a homeless man was jailed for 15 years for stealing $100? Regardless, people are stuffed into jails for doing jacksh*t. It seems the bigger the crime, the lesser the penalty.
Honestly, it makes me feel sick to see Australia's Prime Miniature John Howard get the Freedom Award (or whatever it was called - the French Fries Award?)along with Britain's Tony B-liar - awarded and rewarded for killing millions of Iraqis and stealing their country, etc, etc, etc.
Morons, all of them. I would gladly see them thrown into the States worst jails with some handpicked boyfriends to serve them well like they've served the world.
Hmmmn, that feels better!
Looking ahead is his main point and of course many criminals have been ABOVE the law , Reagan was protected from an investigation by Lee Hamilton and Dick Cheney , Bush Sr. by Clinton etc etc etc and Obama has already given assurances , probably before even taking office ..don't worry george , there will be no investigation or charges brought against you ...
Obama will violate the constitution , by not holding those to account , for committing provable crimes . He's probably too busy preparing to escalate the OCCUPATION in Afghanistan , so morally he's no different than george bush .
You might feel better if you take a look at what AL link says and the difference between Leahy's very smart Truth commission approach and prosecution. The latter would take up so much time and evisceration by Thug lawyers they could end up looking vindicated in the end...a terrible outcome which would be used in the future as protocol for even more delicious war crimes.
Also you might go to youtube and search Jimmy Carter's interview on war crime prosecutions. Spot on honesty and realism.
That's how Lee Hamilton is always played out on these bogus whitewash (coverups) commissions.
Lee Hamilton must not be permitted within a 1000 miles of any investigative commission. Lee Hamilton may have been a democrat and lived in Indiana, but he's been a stooge for the right-wing coverups for years.
..these are delicate matters that must be meticulously and methodically moved like pieces of a chess game.
Jumping to the end game isn't how this one's gonna play out. Knights must be positioned just correctly. Bishops must be at the ready, Rooks securing all exits. We've only just begun to move the pawns.
Our opponents have already set roadblocks to our goals. Booby-traps lay to our left and right.
Storm the fucking Bush compound like it's Waco. Let the subpoenas flow like rainwater.
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