Looks Like They're Getting Ready to Dump Adult Coverage For Pre-Existing Conditions
AmericaBLOG's John Aravosis seems to have discovered a disturbing pattern. I really, really hope he's wrong -- but I wonder:
A day after former Obama campaign manager David Plouffe is elevated to a more senior adviser status at the White House and the DNC, Plouffe pens an op ed in the Washington Post in which he seems to suggest that much of President Obama's promise to ban pre-existing conditions is now being jettisoned. Plouffe wrote in the op ed, which was certainly cleared with the White House, if not written by them:
Parents won't have to worry their children will be denied coverage just because they have a preexisting condition.
Their children? The original promise - even the bad Senate bill - protects everyone, of any age, from being denied coverage because of pre-existing conditions. Now it's just children?
And before anyone argues that Plouffe was simply using children as an example - that the legislation could still cover everyone - look at what else happened in the last two days. CBS News reported that the pre-existing conditions promise was now looking unlikely. But even worse, the NYT talked to folks on the Hill and health policy experts, and they were told the compromise package might just protect kids under the age of 19 from being denied for pre-existing conditions. No one else.
It would sure be one hell of a coincidence if Plouffe, on behalf of the White House, is now talking about kids being protected from pre-existing conditions when the growing chatter in town is that only kids may now be protected from pre-existing conditions - that the rest of us are about to get tossed under the Martha Coakley bus.
As Joe noted the other day, the pre-existing conditions promise, for "all Americans," was the top item on the Obama transition's health care reform page. So, in an effort to appease the masses, they're now considering gutting the one provision that everyone likes, the one provision that defines the legislation.
Can you find any reason to support the HCR package after this? I've wanted it killed for months.
Epic Failure/ Collapse
Yet another clause written for and by the health insurance companies?
More CHANGE we can believe in?
IF there was some change, we could believe in it.
And more is still to come.
Does Obama really want me to join the Tea Party movement? Because that's where this is heading. . . .
CYA !
That and impeach Obama is the stupidest things I've seen here in a long time.
You do that. You go teabaggin. But make no mistake, don't bitch about what you find when you get there. Yeah, we should have elected McCain and Palin. Yeah, that would've been f*ckin smart.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
I agree that's stupid. Obama hasn't done anything wrong. Of course, that's because hasn't done ANYTHING AT ALL! Face it, he's useless.
It was a joke.
I'll obviously have to join whatever the liberal netroots version of the tea party is. . . when we get a bill that has nothing but a few emergency medical centers from VT. . .medicaid coverage in Nebraska. . . . . and a consumer mandate to buy private insurance nationwide even if it sucks.
You write me when we get there OK Mudshark? I'd love to know how you feel then.
A disturbing pattern, do you mean perhaps like promising something really, really important, and then not delivering?
Gee, I hadn't noticed…
I will watch for that pattern.
(/snark)
How many ways is there to say FISA, let me see…
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
to remain...
will be the mandatory purchase clause....
You got it
A new massive forced customer profit source fueled by direct government money.
to quadruple the rates on anyone they choose.
one correction. It's not government money, it's taxpayers money. About the only thing that I can think of that the gov does to earn money is deliver mail, and that is not for profit.
For the love of God, why, why, why, why?
They don't read, they don't care and they are ready to believe always whatever FOXNEWS, Beck and the like say about the Government. Take for example the Tea Baggers, expression used by FOXNEWS (Don't they know that this is actually a "sex act") to describe people disgusted by Obama's politics. They showed up to some meetings carrying weapons. I’m still wondering why.
They don't have the slightest idea what health care is all about. I know that when illness strike you or your family, that could simply be the end. I know of well off friends with great jobs, or millionaires, who once they got sick they eventually got fired, or lost their fortune simply because they couldn't attend his own business anymore, and in less than five years they lost everything. Steve Jobs, Apple' CEO could be one of few lucky ones who simply took off from his job to get some cure. The Republicans, as long as they are healthy, they don't give a shit about the health program. We have seem that in the last 12 months. Does anybody remember senator Specter who, together with Bush, was against stem cell research, but the minute he was diagnosed with cancer he turned against Bush. It’s all selfish human behavior. Sure, they can spend 1.3 billion dollars in the Iraq war, but health care? Fuck no. Why should we spend that kind of money on the "heroes, and patriots" who fought in Iraq and Aghanistan, and come home wounded or mentally fucked up, and now we have to "take care of them". Fucked that!
And that’s exactly the Republican mentality that they have been displaying. And what are we Democrats doing? Just talking shit as usual. There is nothing else better to do. They are so obvious is simply nauseating. I remember when the new GI bill was being negotiated in Congress and McCain was opposing it. When he was asked the reason about his opposition, he was so honest. He said: “ They get that money, and then they get out of the Army and go to college.” I feel like saying to him: “That’s why it is called the GI bill dumb ass senile motherfucker!”
Obama has been doing what he can. People are not helping him. I feel sorry for him.
I live on the northern side of our border. I have one of those"pre-exsisting conditions" that would limit my options in America. I have celiac disease and in Canada there is NO PROBLEM in getting care. It leaves me shaking my head when I see how the republicans are taking ppl to the cleaners over healthcare, saying it is a socialist/commie plot to ruin america. If universal healthcare is so bad why does the US not have it and the rest of what we call the first world have some form of it
I was there with you Mike. If I had a time machine I'd set it for July 1978 and peddle the 8 miles to the Rainbow Bridge and a new start in Canada. If I'd also had a chrystal ball,of course.
had a massive stroke, came a breath away from dieing and was in intensive care for about three weeks, then moved to a moderate 24 hour care hospital where he stayed for another month.
The entire cost in mainland China for close to two months of hospitalization, $1000 yuan (about 120USD).
In the U.S. he would have died for sure. Thank god he's alright.
The right wing has the Tea Party Movement. What do we have?
telling us not to wet the bed.
you could show up at tea parties :D
there are already so many groups within the tea party movement that agree on hardly anything, noone would notice...
have that crazy lady at the mccain rally look.
Dead give away.
Sun, 01/24/2010 - 09:11 — NOT AMUSED
Decaffeinated caffeine.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
has been doing what he can to gut the health care bill. He gave away single payer, he discouraged "public option".
Don't feel sorry for him. He's going to try to spin this current steaming pile of shit into something good and he knows it isn't but it's what he wants. His mother must be rolling in her grave and very ashamed.
illustrates some strange and complicated psychological aspects of Obama's character, such as revenge against his parents, in particular his liberal mother. Obama's father abandoned him when he was 2, and at age 10 he went to live with his grandparents when his mother moved to Indonesia w/her new husband. He has broken every liberal promise he made during the campaign on healthcare - the public option, no mandates, no middleclass tax - and now he is even wants to take away the sole remaining positive element, the pre-existing condition clause.
And he is not yet finished punishing the average American; he is forming a "bipartisan" commission to address the "difficult" issue of budget balancing - right when we're in the midst of a major recession. From all appearances, he will use this commission as a cover - just like he used the Blue Dogs and Republicans as a cover in hcr to stick it to the middleclass - to stick it to the the elderly, poor, and disabled. "Conveniently", the commission will not be making its recommendations until after the 2010 elections. 40 progressive organizations are organizing against it:
Obama is a Republican trojan horse.
America Does Not Need An Undemocratic 'Deficit Commission'
But they ARE ignorant and sheep like for the most part.
Sheep like behavior is drilled into them from the earliest years by forced religion.
Because the corporations have managed to usurp the laws of our nation and make the lawmakers direct taxation to the poor and working class instead of the upper/rich classes; we are left with very little for schools. We must get to work, and the corporations MUST have infrastructure (roads, bridges, rails, ports, electricity) to sell their goods, those things get cared for first. But when it comes to human capital? It is cheap in the eyes of corporations. Note the description, "human capital".
We are not "human BEINGS". We are a digit in a book to be wiped out in a financial plan.
When oh when will we STOP buying from the corporations and just SIT IT OUT FOR A WHILE UNTIL THEY CRUMBLE? We can take it. Come on!
National Boycotts and General Strikes have never been achieved because we didn't have the means to speak to one another.....
before the Internet.
So really folks, it's all up to US.
like banks have to spend down to receive help when they get in a terminal position?.
Spend down for people until flat assed broke = Medicaid
Banks go broke = cash injection
Corporations are not people
then started to read the text and I came to "Parents won't have to worry about their children having a pre-existing condition." My gfirst thought was that this has to be Susies blog. I scrooled back up and sure as hell. Come on Susie, there hasn't been any discussion of dropping adults from the healthcare bill.
Ron, she backed it up with reports from CBS and the New York times. Doesn't sound like idle speculation. You know the insurers are guiding the legislation and that the last thing they want is to have to cover a patient that actually needs medical care.
but no actual confirmation from house or senate. Why didn't she just back it up from reports from Fox news? I will not click on every link just because it came from CBS or the NY Times either. She does this kind of blogging all the time.
I guess we'll know by tomorrow. But if you think like the insurance companies, the pre-existing condition is the most profitable way to discriminate and the most costly thing to allow blanket coverage on.
This health bill is about preserving the profits of the health insurance companies. Pre-existing conditions are a threat to that. It makes perfect sense that they would cut out that provision.
behind closed doors. when have you seen a public statement that told you they were fucking you. they do friday/weekend news dumps, half-truths and innuendos. have you missed the last year?
Some stuff you can't make up!
the worst source for news but so many are competing for second place, it's hard to determin which is second.
but fuxNoise is still blazing away in 1st place.
Some stuff you can't make up!
You should follow the links.
Her link to the purported CBS report is a link to Americablog which pastes up a report linked to but not sourced to CBS. Here is the money quote from that ink: "Obama has suggested shifting the focus to popular proposals such as banning denial of coverage to those with medical problems." No mention of only those 19 or below.
The NYT article money quote is this: "Lawmakers, Congressional aides and health policy experts said the package might plausibly include these elements:" MIGHT PLAUSIBLY and MIGHT PLAUSIBLY NOT.
But what about Mr. Pflouffe, you ask? Susie omits that she quotes a passage of his referring to elements of the current reform bill which go into effect THIS YEAR. The universal ban on prexisting conditions does not.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/01/22/opi...
Don't know if it's the one being referred to.
"Earlier this week, Obama had suggested shifting the focus to popular proposals like banning denial of coverage to those with medical problems. On Friday, he acknowledged that particular fix can't be done on its own because it would encourage people to put off getting insurance until they're sick, driving up premiums for everybody else. A comprehensive bill remains the best approach, the president suggested."
The link-link I followed only quoted Jay Rockefeller.
The later version you found confirms Obama sees the connection, not that he is paring back who the pre existing condition applies to.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
It just doesn't make sense to me that they would drop something that most likely is agreeable to both parties. I'm gonna keep my bloomers untwisted until I know exactly what is going on and not just what some interpret or think or suggest or translate.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
why stop. they do not listen to us. they tell us to shut up and take whatever because it's the best they can get without 60 votes.
Some stuff you can't make up!
for bloomers at a different Bloomer Shoppe than the poster.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
the maneuver is a play we have seen before.
They don't have the guts to just announce that they are dropping yet another protection of citizens from the bill.
So they manufacture communications that lead people to believe the case at hand. Then they bring up a bunch of reps on the talking head shows to "discuss" it and ever so slowly and slightly, while telling us they are fighting for the specific clause and/or protection, in the end say they tried, but whew, it was just too politically difficult to keep.
Meaning they were too damn afraid to put their backside on the line to fight for something that we as citizens deserve.
They protect themselves and that is that.
As I have said before, they do not listen.
They run on promise and deliver on next to nothing, believing that if we get a slice of the whole loaf, we will continue to be happy about it as good voting slaves should.
As evidenced in Mass, it seems the only way to get them to raise their head from the legislative pillow is to set the house on fire.
So that is what we are prepared to do....and yet they still aren't listening...so in November, every Dem should go down to defeat.
They will finally realize that we are the majority and we want progressive change. We will then campaign behind average, normal Americans without a silver spoon and fat bank account.
It's the last idea I have about seating people who have lived through this American nightmare.
So we'll fight through the next decade of conservative dealings...they certainly won't look much different than they do now with a Dem majority...and then we come back and make radical...yes, Glenn Beck, I said radical, change in the makeup of our elected representatives.
So grab your saddle and hang on. This is going to get messy.
totally shot . . The Great Plouffe will save them!
LOL right sure he will
"throw the bums out" campaign (and vote for us) is going to work again!
It does every time.
maybe it is really time to revolt before this country sinks any deeper into the shit.
everything they do plays to the insurance companies against the people. Its going beyond exasperating to disgusting.
AKP&D Message and Media . . .named after its four original partners: David Axelrod, John Kupper, David Plouffe, and John Del Cecato.
The "Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse"
This is beyond incredible. Just when you think Obama can't be any worse he proves you wrong.
Is there any gutter of corrution and weakness so low that the Obama Administration won't wallow in it? He just can't shit on the public enough while eating buckets of special interest shit.
This guy is a fucking nightmare! And this after another of his bullshit speeches about fighting for the people! How fucking stupid do they think people are?!
If there are any leaders left in the herd of sheep that is today's Democratic Party now is the time for them to be heard. Someone has to step up and call this son-of-a-bitch out on his coporate, Wall Street, pick your monied special interst bootlicking.
time to stick a fork in it.
Say hello to a new Republican majority in 2010. If Obama makes this move, he will become the first lame duck president in his second year in the history of America. This guy is stunning in his weakness as a leader. But let me say this, I told you so! I saw this coming in 2008 and said so at the time, and was attacked by other commenters on many blogs. I am completely disgusted in the continual weak kneed attitude of not only this president, but the entire democratic leadership. So the election of Scott Brown means we now have a new president, well at least you'd think so listening the spineless Democrats and the mainstream media. And for those who think Hillary would've been better (I'm talking about you Lynn Samuels), give it a rest. Remember her husband Bill is a big a part of the mess America is in as any republican. It's not credible to think she would have come into office and totally discredited her husbands presidency by disavowing his policies, which either her or Obama will have to do to bring America back from the precipice of complete failure. We need to find another strong candidate (Howard Dean) to take Obama out in the 2012 elections, because the Supreme Court is still at stake. As we have seen with the ruling this week, we can't afford to let a republican replace the seats of John Paul Stevens, and Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and ensure the complete and total transformation of America to Nazi Facism.
pass the house anyway.
And adopt a new political strategy---now!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ELleCQvew&fe...
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
So if the mandatory buy in is still there, but they can deny you coverage anyway, that part doesn't make sense and I doubt they would force someone to buy and then not give them coverage. That's where is starts to sound like an Onion story. Not enough details.
If they drop the pre-existing conditions protection, they're also backing off on the mandate. We'll see.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
It only makes sense that they are getting blowback about the mandatory buy in and the only way to take out the mandatory buy in is to take out the mandatory coverage of preexisting conditions. You see, they are related. You have to balance them both out. This is another reason why single payer is the best way to go.
The single payer system is a mandate too. Everyone is covered, aren't they? There's a difference in who's paying, and a lot more efficiency.
Unfortunately, the messiah took single payer "off the table" upon taking up health reform. That necessarily required an insurance mandate instead, in order to allow the pre-existing conditions aspect to work.
Very true. The difference is how you say it. With single payer everybody would be paying just as with the mandatory buy in. And obviously by definition single payer would cover the preexisting deal. I don't think Obama should have taken single payer off the table (duh). As pols show, people want single payer. And now he is getting the worst of both worlds. The right wing idiot Tea Baggers are saying he is a socialist and the the left wing are so angry that they are voting against him.
your money until you make a claim, then deny your claim because you had a PEC.
You doubt they would force someone to buy in and then not give them coverage.
Oh, OK then...I must have missed the compassionate insurance company convention. My bad.
They are not stupid.
the Onion does not provide links to make it look like they did not make up the implausible.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
but the story did make you cry...
yet.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
of poor preventive healthcare, all our pre-existing conditions get dumped on medicare, after we've "gifted" all our money to our kids so we don't have to pay for any of it ourselves.
spineless!
they have a spine they are forging ahead against the people with the agenda the insurance companies handed them. Looks like they are doing a splendid job as well.
Are like salt on a wound... pre-existing to boot! ;)
What other entities can use "an act of god" and "pre-existing condition" as an an excuse to screw ya? Pharma makes stuff that fixes "pre-existing conditions" and Ins. makes stuff that doesn't... It's a cruel world out there.
Study the symptoms not the virus...
their useless H1N1 vaccine scam.
Plouffe might succeed in bamboozling the nervous suburban middle class.
They don't read, they don't care and they are ready to believe always whatever FOXNEWS, Beck and the like say about the Government. Take for example the Tea Baggers, expression used by FOXNEWS (Don't they know that this is actually a "sex act") to describe people disgusted by Obama's politics. They showed up to some meetings carrying weapons. I’m still wondering why.
They don't have the slightest idea what health care is all about. I know that when illness strike you or your family, that could simply be the end. I know of well off friends with great jobs, or millionaires, who once they got sick they eventually got fired, or lost their fortune simply because they couldn't attend his own business anymore, and in less than five years they lost everything. Steve Jobs, Apple' CEO could be one of few lucky ones who simply took off from his job to get some cure. The Republicans, as long as they are healthy, they don't give a shit about the health program. We have seem that in the last 12 months. Does anybody remember senator Specter who, together with Bush, was against stem cell research, but the minute he was diagnosed with cancer he turned against Bush. It’s all selfish human behavior. Sure, they can spend 1.3 billion dollars in the Iraq war, but health care? Fuck no. Why should we spend that kind of money on the "heroes, and patriots" who fought in Iraq and Aghanistan, and come home wounded or mentally fucked up, and now we have to "take care of them". Fucked that!
And that’s exactly the Republican mentality that they have been displaying. And what are we Democrats doing? Just talking shit as usual. There is nothing else better to do. They are so obvious is simply nauseating. I remember when the new GI bill was being negotiated in Congress and McCain was opposing it. When he was asked the reason about his opposition, he was so honest. He said: “ They get that money, and then they get out of the Army and go to college.” I feel like saying to him: “That’s why it is called the GI bill dumb ass senile motherfucker!”
Obama has been doing what he can. People are not helping him. I feel sorry for him.
I knew like many here did, that Obama was going to fail two days after the election; when he fired Dr. Dean, and put Rahm (DLC-R) in charge. He wasn't fooling us then, and he's not fooling us now.
Seems like the only person he has managed to fool, is himself.
Honestly, watching these morons destroy an anti-republican corporate fascists revolt by giving them corporate fascism, reminds me of the three stooges episode where the stooges try to fix the plumbing - it's just not as funny. In fact, it's not funny at all.
If I were a psychopath, I would join the republican party, and get in on the gravy train taking the Teabircher morons to the cleaners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMlPE1lV_5Y
I swear everybody forgot the chaos he brought upon this nation. Ask Massachussetts!
"It's Bushes Fault" . . rather then doing what needs to be done to energize this country and get all our problems solved.
Evet, if you have brain in your head you know that the economy is Bush's fault and it will be Bush's fault for many years. It is the gift that keeps on giving. Unless of course Obama will just flips that switch in his office that turns it around.
turning around instead of continueing bush's policies might be a good idea though?
Evet is afraid of switches. Flip one and the damn teevee may come on. As Ms. Madrak would say, we'll see.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
We all have a pre-existing condition, it's called the U.S. health-care system!
our pre-existing condition is being birthed as a human.
These bodies were made to fall apart, sometimes in a flash, and sometimes over several decades.
That is the crux of our human dilemma.
You know what, fuck all these guys, senators, reps, pres... all of them. I hope the whole health reform initiative goes down in fucking smoke and flames and the resulting anger generates a nice pitchfork and torch mob that bypasses Washington and heads straight for Connecticut, Insurance capital of the world.
“The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.” - Harlan Ellison
Apparently just got signed.
This kind of madness and craziness is not due to incompetence. It's by design. They know exactly what they are doing. Obama is a master of language. So he knows exactly what he's doing by having his right hand come out with a statement that talks about children having no pre-conditions. The omission for the rest of us is glaring and a sneaky way having to avoid directly telling people about the pre-condition fail.
This would definitely have to mean that the mandate is done. How do you fine someone for not buying insurance the industry won't sell them? Unless they're going to make us file a form with the IRS that proves we've been rejected by at least three insurance companies in order to not fine us.
Again, who wins? The insurance industry! They get customers forced to buy their product, and now that they can reject people for pre-existing conditions, they get only the cream of the crop -- the healthiest patience unlikely to require any payout.
Meet the new boss, more articulate and a better speech giver than the old boss, but just a corporatist.
. . . you forgot Big Med and their collection agencies.
If there is no mandate, but yet coverage for pre-existing conditions, then someone could carry on with no insurance, and only upon the onset of illness, purchase insurance whereupon they immediately start charging health care to the carrier. That won't work.
...I think a government mandate to buy a healthcare product from a private organization is wrong.
Some people talk about mandatory auto insurance, which requires us to buy insurance from private insurers. It's not the same thing. I can choose whether or not I want to drive. I can't choose whether or not to come into this world and maintain a heartbeat.
I'm happy to trade the pre-existing conditions thing if they lose the mandate business. But if they don't lose the mandate business, it would be horribly wrong.
According to CBS news regarding preexisting conditions, Obama "acknowledged that particular fix can't be done on its own because it would encourage people to put off getting insurance until they're sick..."
People can't put off buying insurance now, if there is a mandate.
Myself, I'd rather have the mandate. I am assuming now that I'll never live to see the day where the country adapts universal coverage.
preexisting conditions aren't the problem. the way it is set up in the american system is a problem.
once you are accepted into a policy, the insurance company shouldn't be able to retroactively dump you. if they missed something, they haven't done THEIR due diligence and it's their fault.
but there really is no reason why an insurance company that never had a relationship with you, should all of a sudden pay your cancer treatment because you decide to give them a couple of hundred dollars tomorrow.
it won't work either, unless there is a 100% mandate, because then people just wait until they're seriously sick. and if there's a mandate, it will reduce quality, as people will change from the cheapest to the most expensive plan once they get sick and insurance companies are forced to take anyone.
so if you want to cover preexisting conditions, that's really the job of the insurance company your were insured with when the condition was discovered.
or in the case of children and possibly the uninsured, the taxpayer's.
to have a march on Washington. We must vent our anger in person, not just on blogs. I feel this is why HCR has gone so horribly wrong. We, the people that voted these people in actually expected them to remember us after Nov 4. We mistakenly believed with one vote our work was done, and they wouldn't forget about us when the big bags of money from special interests started showing up on the doorstep. We should be the ones marching, protesting, walking the halls of the Capitol, not the teabaggers. But who has gotten more of what they want, us or the teabaggers? We should take a page from their playbook and show Washington the faces of the people who are so disappointed in them. I can't understand how we are eager to march in protest to wars because of unnecessary deaths, but no march to protest the thousands of deaths of our fellow citizens due to an ineffectual health care system. Imagine how many have died and will die while we bitch on blogs. Now is the time to ACT! Let's start planning a March For Life on DC. MoveON, dailyKOS, and all the others need to mobilize their members, plus we need to get the word out to anyone else who wants to speak for the thousands of dead who cannot speak for themselves. I am fired up and ready to go, but I don't know if this is what Obama had in mind.
You read my mind.... People are fearful of crazies so they get ALL the press/attention. One thing is for sure-Blogging your beliefs is ineffective compared to boots on the ground and cameras in your face. Who got ALL the attention in August?
Medical Care is UNAFFORDABLE!! If it was affordable the Insurance rackets would be out of business! You would pay your Doctor directly and the Insurance Mob wouldn't see ONE GOD DAMN CENT.
reason that is unaffordable is because of insurance. Especially for preventative care and standard(non catastrophic)illnesses. People don't care how much it costs because they don't have to pay directly. So they don't shop around and there is no real competition.
My family Dr. is about $90 just to walk into their office and be seen for maybe 5 minutes. My pets vet is $35 and he spends way more time in the room.
For my daughters vaccination total cost for one visit was I think about $140, for my dog $45.
DVMs go to school for as long as MDs, and it costs as much and there are actually fewer schools for it so it's harder to get into them.
Or look at elective procedures such as Lasix. Costs are coming down, and technology is improving. Why? Could it because insurance doesn't cover it, so people actually have to pay directly and it's in their best interest to shop around?
If insurance companies would reduce pre-existing coverage to children 5 and under only, then they could increase profits even more and spend the extra money on their crackerjack leadership. {snark}
Let’s just stop wasting time and get to it, the only thing that can stay in the bill is the mandatory sign up making it mandatory that you must buy healthcare. Rest of the bill can go in the shredder. Obama has failed at this healthcare from the start and about the only thing, he seems to support is this and the GOP is right. What happened to that great speech but some president early last year outlining what healthcare should be? It has all been trashed. Let us just give in to the GOP, they now have that super minority that has all the power, and pass a healthcare bill that supports the health industry, that is what all the politicians are for.
you still buy into the story that this is a fight between the democrats and the republicans?
I only see democrats fighting.
the minority is running a news channel, that's all.
Good one.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I talked to a friend yesterday who's friend's son fell, took a chunk out of his cheek and had to go to the emergency room.
The bill for four stitches was $12,000.
This has gotten way out of control. What good is coverage if hospitals are willing to charge 30 times what the procedure is worth?
went to the hospital to have 1 stent put in when the insurance company paid for it the bill was close to 100 grand. the second time when medicaid paid for 2 stents the bill was 12 grand.
The first time I was treated pretty good.
They couldn't wait to throw me out the second time.
I got some bills once, and later on EOB's from the insurance company, and it was quite clear that the uninsured pay 3 to 4 times what a insurance carrier pays.
In my case, the care was "in-network", which meant simplified billing. I explained that I met my co-pay, and the billing arrangements meant in an "in-network" situation, that the hospital and Blue Cross sort their differences out themselves, without involving me. All patient amounts owing were zero'ed out.
the prices for american health care are insanity. I happen to know the prices for a specific operation in some countries.
US around 40000$
costa rica doctor who mostly treats US patients: 16000$
germany: 8000 euro
these are all prices of a private contract, without insurance.
http://www.truthout.org/article/us-employers-...
Free Trade meets health care.
"After going overseas to outsource everything from manufacturing to customer services, American businesses - pressed by rising healthcare costs - are looking offshore for medical benefits as well.
A growing number of employers that fund their own health insurance plans are looking into sending ailing employees abroad for surgeries that in the US cost tens of thousands of dollars more."
well, I already am. but that's not the point.
nobody talks about costs of US health care. and when obama does, he's talking about nonsense like electronic patient records. how is that going to cut prices for operations in half?
you example of india is extreme because of standards of living etc.
but it's not only that. countries with a standard of living close to the US have much lower prices.
Think of the increased profit that insurance company's universal access to electronic records means if pre-existing exclusions prevail. The insurance company low-paid reps will be scouring your records for any scintilla of information a provider may have recorded years earlier that gives the insurer an excuse to deny the claim.
From another website forum:
It's funny the view I take on digital records. I wonder how many lives could be saved in remote or expedient situations when pertinent data is available at the click of a mouse. The way people use the truth... I find interesting. Some people seem to be greedier than others, more athletic, more attractive, smarter...
The distance between "me first" and "us first" I find interesting. I might be a fool, but I think there is good in everyone.
The other day I was at the DMV getting a HAZMAT...(hazardous materials) endorsement put on my CDL...(Commercial Drivers license), and I asked a gentlemen whom was there with his young daughter... getting her first drivers license, if he knew of the the high courts ruling. He had not, and stated... he who holds the gold! He went on to claim that we are approaching end times and that he was a Jehovah's Witnesses. Fortunately the DMV called me to the counter about that time.
My Sister was a JW for awhile, though she was troubled when one of her good friends was allowed to bleed to death, because of some blood transfusion problem of that belief system... at least that's what I was told. What prompted this babel was the electronic medical records and I happened to notice an ambulance in NY one day, with some sort of satellite dish attached... while making deliveries for my job. I thought it was cool and assumed it was for transmitting data. I then envisioned an emergency on a congested roadway somewhere that would hamper the transfer to the hospital and thought it may help... when seconds matter. That's all I wanted to say. I often have a problem being concise. :-/
Study the symptoms not the virus...
could transfer medical information in cases just as you envisioned.
But the kicker is the JW, you lucked out just in time.
It's not Bush fault! It's the American's fault.
They let Florida fiasco take place. Complacency. That's the name of the game. A march in Washington to support Obama? Hell no! I'm too busy. My personal life is to intricate. I don't have time for my country. So many things to do. TV, games, travel etc. etc. And them BOOM, another Bush! And then we blog What happened? Nobody said nothing. Today's situation in America is Bush fault. We let it happened. The Republicans planned it. Bush is gone. So, let's drop it and stop whining about him.
Did anybody noticed what SCOTUS did a few days ago? Have anybody seen or heard people's outrage? No. Everybody is out to lunch. Chances are thet a great percentage of Americans do not know what a fuck happened. Just like they don't know the meaning health care on the long term. It's nation of dumb assess.
And that, sir, is the root of our problems.
I see a lot of wailing about the mandate. But what is "single payer"? Isn't it a mandate that everyone is covered by insurance, provided by the government on a self-insured basis? And that has to be paid for, presumably through taxes, which I would personally extend beyond payroll to include taxes on dividends and interest.
So this bill is pretty much what I expected from Obama, and matches the campaign rhetoric, after stripping away the abstract language. Essentially, he campaigned for universal coverage.
So, single payer is off the table, so that people won't go to hell for a flirtation with godless socialism. So, what's left? Is there an example anywhere in the world where people are covered for preexisting conditions at the same rate as healthy people without universal coverage? I don't know of any. If there is, then we need to copy it. Absent that, no mandate means ridding preexisting condition protections.
Gee, does this mean Sarah Palin can't blab on about death panels? Seems to me these are being created by the GOP.
"Respect for the rights of others is peace." --Benito Juarez
... those who have been opposing the mandate have effectively been opposing coverage for preexisting conditions.
This is how I see it.
(1.) We start from scratch and hope subsequent legislation gravitates us to a better situation.
or:
(2.) The House passes the Senate bill and we'll hope subsequent legislation gravitates us to a better situation.
My best guess is to go with #2. I think we'll wind up getting to a better situation than starting from scratch.
Americans getting what they've voted for the last 30 yrs. Congratulations, let the banners fly and the bells ring out.
The way I read it David was talking about provisions that immediately take effect. Ban on pre-existing illness for children has always been a part of the bill that would take immediate effect, the protection for adults would take effect in 2014.
wants to make with the damn facts.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
she does this kind of shit all the time.
... but, like many of the posts I've seen on health care, it misses the tie-in between the mandate and the coverage for preexisting conditions. One is something people like, and the other is what people hate.
That's too bad, because the mandate and coverage for preexisting conditions are joined at the hip.
between free lunch and free labor.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
He mentioned pre-existing conditions bans for children under 19 as one of the IMMEDIATE benefits of passing HCR. This is true. Harry Reid's manager's amendment included an exception to the 1/1/2014 effective date for children under 19.
Plouffe said nothing about future pre-existing conditions bans. Only that one of the immediate benefits was that children would not be excluded.
If I find out otherwise, rest assured I'll be calling for the bill to be killed. Pre-existing conditions have always been the battle line for insurers, and also for me.
Whats the point of having Health Care Reform if your not going to ban pre-existing conditions by the insurance companies and caps on out of pocket expenses so people don't go into bankruptcy because of a Health issue. Sixty percent of all bankruptcy is for Health related issues.
I'm sorry to said but President Obama let down the people who elected him and let the Conservative Democrats bring down Health Care and the Democratic Party. Obama needs to call out these Senators, even those that are in his own party.
... otherwise people will only get insurance upon onset of illness. And people have been telling their representatives to vote against the mandate. I don't think they have thought this through. I'm going to tell my rep to vote for the Senate plan.
I held in there for a long time with these bozos... but they keep chipping away everything of value in this bill. This is it. If, in fact, this means that the insurance companies will not be forced to accept people with pre-existing conditions, then there's nothing of value at all left. Dump it.
And dump the dems. I had high hopes, but the Democrats have proven to be fearful, ineffective and downright dangerous. Time to go.
... and people are saying, vote against the mandate. Insurance will be quite expensive if people can buy it only once they become ill. Hence, the need for the mandate, in order to facilitate the coverage for preexisting conditions.
I thought that the Senate bill was as bad as it could get. Why would they continue to gut that provision when trying to reconcile the two bills?
U.S. Representative Dennis Kucinich on health care:
http://www.youtube.com/russiatoday#p/u/15/69r...
I think he states a pretty good case what is wrong with the Senate bill. Where I disagree with Rep Kucinich is that the problems need to be fixed before passage of health reform, as opposed to subsequently, after passage of the Senate bill by the House. In particular, I don't see the Senate filibustering the lifting of anti-trust exemptions on the insurers.
I also don't think Mr. Kucinich adequately takes into account the amount of corporate corruption of our political processes.
From the Raw Story interview with former Cigna exec Wendell Potter:
“What they will be doing, what they can in the Senate bill, is charge people significantly more if they have certain health factors,” Potter said. “And it would be pretty much up to the industry to decide what those health factors are. You could have high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes. You could be overweight, have a history of tobacco use. There definitely would be a wide range of things that the insurance industry would be able to look at and determine whether or not to charge you more.”
http://rawstory.com/2010/01/whisteblower-reve...
Without pre-existing conditions what's left
Accidents
And child birthin's?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
They need to just kill this abomination... this monstrosity of a bill that has been "engineered" to protect the insurance industry and screw the working American. KILL IT!!!
Democrats: come back to it when you have the fucking stones to do it right.
Without the Democrats own constituencies supporting health reform, it will be dead. Then, when the Republicans are back in office, we'll have the McCain approach.
http://www.slate.com/id/2191699/
(McCain approach)
--edit: One thing you can take to the bank is, the Republicans won't be concerned about a 60 vote majority.
This whole thing has been about getting the mandate. THAT'S ALL. None of the other conditions will be met. It's been a boondoggle all along, just a way of getting everyone behind the idea of being forced to buy the insurance industry's shitty, life-threatening products.
It was NEVER about making health care better. It was only about getting more money for the vampire industry.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
No public option, no ban on pre-existing condition clauses... So what the fuck is left exactly -other than we're going to be required to have buy insurance, of course?
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
Obama's campaign promises--no pre-existing condition exclusions.
No mandatory insurance. Open meetings on health care. All broken.
In this town, the hospital billing dept is run by a man whose family stole a huge sum from mine. I tell everyone "Do not pay that bill". I will leave their insurance policy in the dust, pay the fines if I have to, go to prison and get excellent free healthcare if necessary. If you must be hospitalized, go to a facility whose management was in on this scam, and stiff them.
Taxation without representation? Damn truth--not an uninsured person anywhere in Congress. When we're the criminals, and not the rich and fraudulent Wall Street gang and insurers, might as well start the revolution. Make mine green tea, liberally steeped.
There is an odd statistic as why men don't go to the doctors as often as women. The obvious reasons are that men are too macho, or too busy, or don't think of the consequences, etc.
However, it has always been my reason I did not see a doctor often is because they would discover some malady or genetic defect in my body or family history and (before you can say Corn Flakes), I am the proud new owner of a "Pre-Existing Condition".
If the doctor only puts his stethescope to my heart or takes a blood pressure reading, my results are entered into the computer and registed, logged, archived and dated with a doctor's signature.
It now becomes the "insurance company's" property, through implicit and explicit agreements. They alone are the not only the owners of this information, but they are also the deciders (judge and jury) of the definitions of and applications, including prescriptions and generics, treatments and financial limitations and other terms, subject to change with or without notice.
I have not gone to a doctor regularly because I do not want to claim a defect in my records. I know the consequences. I have over 20 years experience working in the insurance industry.
U nailed it.
Yet another fine example of bold, decisive, clear-thinking leadership from our courageous President, Tiger Wuss.
Your fear of being an ineffectual one term president has led you to actually become an ineffectual one term president. I would have much rathered he went down swinging with some cajones then he would actually have a chance in 2012 but as it stands we seem so screwed. \
Maybe I'm being pessimistic but I don't see anyway out of this boondoggle unless Obama grows some balls and grows them fast.
The threat of corporations throwing around money has screwed us all already. We have no chance of getting a decent health bill thru congress. Only more corporate welfare bills are allowed to pass.
Republicans are liars and simply cannot be trusted.
... Impeach Obama?
I could see impeaching Bush because he deliberately misrepresented a national security threat which got the Iraq war started, and put the Afghanistan war on hold. Absent that, Afghanistan could be finished by now.
When asked for Obama's position during the campaign the following was returned: "Every American has the right to affordable, comprehensive and portable health coverage. My plan will guarantee coverage through partnerships among employers, private health plans, the federal government and states."
There was either mistake or dishonesty in not recognizing, as Hillary did, that a mandate would be necessary in order to establish affordable insurance in the presence of preexisting conditions. Absent that, the effort was pretty much as I expected.
But they'd be f*ckin stupid for sayin it.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
surprise me one bit if this was next on their agenda, then it's f**king rich that progressives on Twitter are telling people like Jane Hamsher to "get the f**k out of our party," instead of realizing that Jane is right, this bill *is* going screw us all over.
I'm with Jane, mainly because I'm a walking pre-existing condition and I know it.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
I'm with you sweetie. But, there isn't a country on earth that covers preexisting conditions at affordable rates without simultaneously mandating universal coverage, whatever the means of payment. (That I'm aware of.)
But, as you can see in the posts here, there are some who say the hell with people with preexisting conditions, there should be no mandate.
will come out of this rotten little "adventure" in trying to get health care. There are just too many selfish people in this country.
"The greatest tyranny is censoring information in order to be better able to control people." - Cristina Saralegui
I don't think we're going to get anywhere. The only chance I see is to pass the Senate bill and then use that as the starting point for further reform. However, the prevailing view seems to be to start from scratch. Being an election year, I see that process disintegrating within a couple of months.
The GOp will regain strength and alot more seats come Nov.
Then, in 2012. They take back the WH. Their strategy worked. And is working.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
I felt somewhat like a horse's ass by relocating and taking a job paying half what I was formerly making, in order to lock in post-retirement welfare benefits and it looked possible that some decent health reform would take place.
But not feeling so stupid now, now that I have retiree health locked in. Of course, it does require the employer to remain in business, which I think will happen, but there are no guarantees.
I think pre-existing condition insurance denial is immoral on its face (excluding fraud, etc.) It's amazing that it has been allowed to go on for so long. I don't think anything that's been proffered so far rises to the level of "reform", but if this provision gets dropped, then it's clear: Barack Obama is a true, unadulterated liar, and/or, a feckless weakling who can't seem to find any ideological grounding.
...terrible president. Apart from some of the horrible decisions he's made regarding human/constitutional rights and his insane love affair with bipartisanship, Obama traffics in mixed messages. It is difficult to ever know what he means or what he stands for, because he always seems to be engaged in a word game. On the one hand he wants to keep the Left from open revolt, while on the other, he wants it clear that he's willing to trade away what ought to be non-negotiable.
Whether what Plouffe wrote means that the administration would be willing to toss out protection for pre-existing conditions is anyone's guess. And that, in itself, is a huge problem. That isn't the kind of issue a competent president should allow there to be any question about. Unfortunately, I have zero confidence in Obama. I don't trust him at all. And at a time when he should be showing strength and building trust, in the aftermath of the Massachusetts senate election, he's doing the opposite -- appearing weak and unreliable.
Even if Obama manages somehow to salvage something from the mess he has helped create, I would prefer to see him replaced in 2012. My problem is I won't vote for a Republican and I can't think of anyone in the Democratic Party who I would want and who would also run.
A pared down bill will not include mandated coverage. If everyone isn't required to have insurance but insurers are required to take everyone, the concern is adverse selection. People will just wait until they become ill and start incurring large bills. We know the insurers aren't going to absorb the increased costs. It will be passed on to those who are insured.
This isn't a huge issue for those who get group coverage through an employer since HIPAA has restrictions on denial for pre-existing conditions. Even though employers can restrict coverage for up to 12 months (18 if you don't enroll immediately) many employers don't restrict coverage. I never worked for an employer who didn't immediately cover pre-existing conditions. (here's HIPAA Q&A's that explain how it works -
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/faqs/faq_consumer_hip...)
This is a huge problem for who have to purchase private insurance.
Most pieces of the legislation are intertwined - remove one and others start to fall.
The really disgusting thing about accepting a pared down bill is that the Republicans will claim victory and say that the Democrats finally saw the light and came to their bipartisan bill.
Forget about supporting HCR. No one in there right mind would support
this Administration. This will be the last insult to Democrats and the
Final excuse for them to finally Ditch Obama once and for all.
Leaving the Door open for any Right Wing Crack-Pot aka."Sarah Palin"
to take the White House from what appears to be a President that makes
Clinton actually look Good.
I think (assuming that I take your opinion in good faith and you're not some RW troll) that I see where you're coming from, and I agree with you. I volunteered for Obama's campaign, I donated money (not much, I'm a student), and I convinced my entire immediate family to caucus for Obama in our district in Iowa. And I think I made a mistake. Obama the candidate appealed to the left of center crowd, that is why he won - but since winning he has acted like he was elected by a bunch of teabaggers. I never thought I'd understand the view of people who say F*** it and to hell with the Democrats, but I almost feel that way. Look at the record - healthcare? nothing will be accomplished. gay rights? Obama has set it back through his legal counsel's vicious defense of DOMA. Cap and Trade? Not a chance in hell it'll pass since according to Democratic math 41 > 59. At least with a Republican congress/president, I might get a fucking tax cut. Dems haven't done a damn thing yet. But I'm not just some repub troll, I'm just a venting and pissed off progressive. I will still vote straight ticket (D) 2010 because if I have to pick between a douche-bag and a turd sandwich, I'll vote for the douche-bag.
If this is true I will never, ever lift a finger for Obama again. If you can't get rid of pre-existing condition clauses then what good are you? Seriously?
This is what happens when lobbyists write bills.
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