Gay Activist Wins Hardball Debate with Preacher
By Susie Madrak Tuesday Dec 23, 2008 5:00pmMy friend Mike Rogers was simply awesome on Hardball yesterday. Just awesome.
Digby saw it, too. She wrote:
I saw something very interesting today on MSNBC. Barnicle, filling in for Matthews on Hardball, hosted Reverend Eugene Rivers, a well respected, uncontroversial African American preacher, and Mike Rogers, strident gay activist.
Loaded for bear, Rivers came out firing, very aggressively and derisively attacking the gay community for being intolerant and asserting that Warren is a thoroughly acceptable mainstream preacher. ("This is a pseudo-controversy that's been fabricated by the anti-religious left. Fact: Rick Warren is not a divisive figure, there's not one shred of empirical, statistical data to support this unfounded
claim.") That's obviously untrue, but that's not what made me take note of the interview.The problem was that Rogers took a very unusual tack and said that Rivers coming on the show to defend Warren shows how powerful the gay community is and that he was very happy to see Warren changing his web site just today (to hide his more outrageously homophobic content.) He characterized this as a big victory for gay rights. ("I compliment Rick Warren on seeing the error of his ways and changing his web site.") Rivers was agitated by this and seemed to be frustrated that the dialog wasn't taking the predicted path, rather sarcastically saying things like "well we're all happy now, I guess."
But the really interesting reaction came about when Rogers suggested that if Warren is to be seen as a man who builds bridges between the right and the left that he should quietly and without any kind of fanfare meet with leaders of the gay community and listen to their concerns. Rivers reacted very badly.
Go read the rest.
(From a different angle: on Warren's refusal to meet with several gay and lesbian couples (and kids) for a meal and conversation - after first agreeing to it. What a hypocrite.)
Let me put it this way: I know better than to think I'll win an argument with Michael. It's never happened, and it never will. Every conversation with Michael is dotted with his interjecting, "Can I tell you something?" and my muttering, "Like I could stop you?" He is, hands down, the most talented debater I've ever seen. (Scorpio. Naturally!)
He doesn't just answer the question, he's always ten steps ahead of his opponent. If we could only clone him, we'd never see liberals lose an argument again.
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Melissa Etheridge is friends with Rick Warren. He can't be much of a homophobe if he's friends with one.
That Melissa Etheridge is a homophobe (which is the way your post reads.)
And one more thing.
Rev. Warren should consider the fact that Jesus Christ, his Lord and Savior, was a man who never married, was supposedly a virgin until death and ran around with 12 other men his whole life.
Was Jesus gay?!
He might have been.
What better proof would we need historically? A man who never married or was with any women, never had any children (that we are historically aware of), and hung out with other guys his whole life.
Plus, he spent all his time doing very cool things, loving everyone and calling people out on their shit.
Sounds gay to me.
Just sayin'.
This country is not yet ready for that theory! Give it another 25 years...
:)
That's not a new theory, people have been saying it for about 30 years at least already. Christ comes from the Greek word Christos, the anointed one. This was applied to everyone who had been initiated into one of the Mystery Cults. By the time of the pseudo-historical Jesus it referred often to the Bacchanalians, and one of the charges the Romans levied against them was homosexuality and the rape of young boys, leading one to wonder what they were "annointed" with.
He's a zombie...
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/wick...
http://www.stumbleupon.com/toolbar/stumble.ph...
old joke that goes "How do you know that Jesus was (fill in the name of the ethnic group of your choice)?" "He was 33 years old, still lived at home, never learned how to be a carpenter like his father, hung around with a bunch of unemployed guys, and his mother thought he was God."
good point abbybwood!
and in the same vain, the hypocrisy of an old single white celibate (virginal?) guy without offspring from the Vatican claiming that gay folks are a threat to human ecology and the propagation of the species. Uh huh. What about me, a hetero married woman who will not have children...oh, that's right, my husband and I should be celibate since we're not procreating in this horribly over-populated world....
These supposed spiritual leaders are a disgrace to the species - go Mike Rogers!
have childerns? *Gasps mockingly*
Why do you hate little baby jebus and Amerka? ;)
Just when I think your posts have gotten saner...you come up with the most ignorant crap I've ever heard.
taken up drinking. Why not? Layed off, no money, it's "Christmas" AND the only news out there is NOT good news. But hey, the good news is...um....hmmm...I need a drink!
jokes somehow off-limits? Is there some irrational fear of offending this all-powerful deity with the fragile ego? Sorry, but I think that religions OF ALL DENOMINATIONS are a cancer on humanity. They have caused more death, hatred, and suffering than every other reason combined. Without the pre-scientific superstitions that we as a supposed intelligent species cling to, the real reasons for war, such as food, water, gold, land, oil or other natural resources would be plainly obvious-and far less tolerable. Once again, to quote George Carlin; "Keep Thy Religion To Thy Self."
The problem is, religion has entrenched it's pathetic being into everyone's lives, right up to the top of the political spectrum. Cuz, what works for bringin' in cash for the pulpit, works for the ol' patriotic people. Besides, society is getting older and afeared some invisible being will be mad for all their ills.......oh wait.....why did the priest cross the road? *insert own answer*....lol
My reply was not directed towards your post but to Liberalicious@17:54.
My apologies for the misunderstanding.
but I was hoping you had a punchline. Why did the priest cross the road? LOL...it's beer night!!
I posted my favorite religious joke on another blog, it was deleted.
gotta be politically correct and not offend any of the masses. We spend so much time "not offending" that nothing ever gets accomplished, and in the middle of the most severe recession probably ever, we focus on the silly and inane....wow..can't believe I typed that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf6wZFMWJeU
That comment was directed at CC not you....gotta watch where the indentations for replies are. I've no prob with any religious jokes. As for CC....well, we've had issues, but now I see we're both in the same boat. maybe to much alike...No money, job, etc here either. But drinking is not an option for me, I lived with an Alkie once...it wasn't fun. As for jesus=gay...you left out him running around with 12 unattached bguys, and a prostitute and f@g-h@g. :).
A drunk became Prez, so aim high. Can't screw things up any worse than they are now.
We've had loads of drunk Presidents, and a few druggies, maybe even a gay one once. Not equivicated those things mind you. But I've lost much of my Obama enthusiasm now. Partly for the Warren thing, but I felt that was just like Clinton long ago. Mostly, I'm beginning to think that his CHANGE iis really not much change at all.
I'm not crazy about this new posting format. Too much room for error, as you stated. I'm also on a state sponsored vacation-Unemployment. Good luck to all of us.
Believe me, that's why I'm a little reluctant to comment sometimes. I've been on permanent vacation for almost 2 years now, and about to run out of funds, in loads of medical debt I can't pay, and now all my credit cards are being cancelled, for the sheer reason I don't use them often. I guess they'd prefer I charge them to the max and then bail. I'm tempted sometime. My credit is excellent at least til now. I will tell ya tho, when it comes to pain and suffering, I'm right up there with Elizabeth Taylor...:) (watching Steel Magnolias, I know I'm a stereo type. :))
I hope things improve for you. And all of the rest of us too.
What's the difference between Jesus and a picture of Jesus?
Only takes one nail to hang a picture!
HA!
Take THAT fundies!
Happy HOLIDAYS you bible thumpin motherfuckers!
Why did the priest cross the road? That's where the little boys are.
I'm REALLY tired of religion or "religious" people saying whatever crap they want, not being able to prove or back any of it up, and any rebuttal being off limits. How cannot any sane and reasonable person not see the potential for humor in the Jesus premise above? Maybe it will make them feel better than I contend Jesus never existed (at least in the ridiculous form put forward by religious texts and religion, and he's certainly not the son of a virgin by a sky god) so you can't make a joke about him. Religulous made me feel better, but only for the 90 minutes I was watching it. Sorry for the rant. But, it's very frustrating to simply just be a human who doesn't use superstition to guide their life on this planet.
Uh, they're not friends.
Who else would know better about Hardballs than gay dudes?
Saddleback.
rivers is proof that the godplex has no boundaries. people of every hue are mindphucked.
brings in the cash like blaming the gays for all of the world's problems. To paraphrase the late, great, George Carlin: God is all powerful, all knowing, all caring, all seeing, all loving, all things to all people, but he's always broke; he just can't handle money.
And I repeat....
Ha!!!
God Bless George Carlin!!
Our species continues to slog onward and upward, despite our frequent and frustrating setbacks. I maintain the fervent hope that--during my brief, but never boring tenure on this planet--I will witness the universal peace and harmony envisioned by our spiritual selves.
has an end.
the song that never ends...
http://www.zutroy.com/stuff/neverend/
Me: Straight man disclaimer! ;) (yes, we have a ways to go)
I think this was a very good conversation. It was not the debate and spitting cat-fight that CnL made it out to be. (Love the website, but you guys do go for showmanship on occasion.)
These two made their points... I'd say the only argument here was the fact that Rivers and Rogers agreed in principal... but neither was willing to quite go all the way and agree that they agreed ;)
it won
Not in the courts, which is where it counts. Prop 8 is illegal in that it TAKES AWAY rights from a protected class of people. You cannot take away rights under the United States Constitution.
I love the fact that two guests can have a reasonable discussion without resorting to namecalling or screaming at each other.
And in the end, they actually can agree with each other!
Is political discourse in this country finally changing?
I don't see any statistical, empirical date that proves bats are birds, Pi is 3, and the entire cosmos was created in the space of one week. But I'm sure Eugene Rivers would have no problem teaching that to my child in a science classroom since it is in his precious Bible.
truly scary look at Bible literalists, check out "Wretched" with Todd Friel. Dangerous, brainwashed, zealots.
In my observation, it's the religious left who are most deeply offended by the Warren choice -- the anti-religious left are still wondering why there's an invocation in the first place.
It's really a shame that the gay community has to make everything about sex. It is one reason why men have a difficult time showing emotions toward other men: someone will think they are gay.
Men can have love for one another without having sexual feeling involved. Men can work together without having sexual feelings involved.
Get your mind out of the sewer for a change.
Hmmmmm...you might want to deal with your repressionistic crap first before laying it on another entire group. I guess you believe heteros are pure as the driven snow? Might want to try look around the Internet before spouting off judgements.
Mike Rogers is brilliant. Melissa Ethridge is a traitor. The difference is in capitulating without qualifying past indiscretions. Rivers, Sharpton and most of the black religious leadership are just pathetic clones of the same cloth. Christian conservatives be they black or white are not voting for the interests of the gay community; indeed, they inherently and regligiously vote against our interests.
It is becoming more evident that while the gay community has been an ardent support of black Democrats in local, state and federal elections; this has to change. Gay support of black candidate must be more readily discerned; don't give your votes away to an enemy of your community. They will come back and do things like choose a gay racist unapologetic pastor to participate in their inaguration. Watch as more black preachers speak in the same voice as Warren. The black vote in California was primarily responsible for the success of Prop 8. They must be seen as much a detractor of gay community rights as are other conservative religious voters.
“Hello.”
“Hello.”
“We haven’t been introduced I’m Bob B Quackenbush, how do you do.”
“I am quite well, and I am Mike Rogers strident gay activist.”
“Oh yes you brought the Crab Cakes. Their very good too.”
“Thank you, the secret is to sauté them in fresh Ginger.”
“I find myself using a lot of Ginger lately; it seems to go well with everything.”
“Yes it does. It was nice to meet you.”
“The pleasure was mine Mr. Rogers.”
HUH?
I was having fun with the term “strident, gay activist” used in describing Rogers. The term is pure spin and I wanted to use it derisively in order for it to be seen for what it is. The story as presented is an example of “appealing to emotion” since the idea of someone besting another in an argument that has no structure, or limit other than time restrains is in fact not an argument but a presentation of platitudes and isn’t of significant importance, at least to me since I have my own arguments on the subject. Also, I like to tell people about the use of Ginger.
Anyone who believes in astrology should not be given a grain of salt when writing about anything. Superstition and anti-intellectualism go hand in hand, hence Rick Warren. A person's birthday has NOTHING to do with their behavior/personality; if it did, identical twins would be identical in terms of their fates, their lives, and their personalities. Stop being ignorant, or give Rick Warren props for believing what he wants to believe. You can't have both.
Mike Rogers was awesome in that! At first...I thought the preacher was the gay one. That tie... Those glasses!
Before the announcement/request of Warren too attend, what happened? He allegedly took improper action with regard too Prop 8 and called people names?
I believe that those actions are negative, though that's just me.
How many people have you heard, call a preacher man, pedophiles and the like?
Since the announcement/request of Warren too attend, what has happened? He still feels the same, though he did alter his website and the name calling still exists. Why do you think he edited his website? By editing the site, is it good or bad?
I live in CT, I think we got it right along with MA and NY is not far behind. It is a civil right and will be recognized in time as others were. The frustration is understandable as is the bigotry.
Being an atheist I believe there are far more loving religious people then negative religious people, as well, the same can be said for GLB individuals. I'd prefer rational discussion vs alienation and childish name calling. I say the gentleman on the left was more rational on this issue then the guy on the right and that's funny as well, cuz the right usually is wrong. :-P He appeared to have a chip on his shoulder, granted it may be justified, but his we won, we won attitude did not sit well with me. I say if you want respect, give it! Did you see how Barack Obama ended his Weekly Radio Address last weekend? As an atheist I found it comforting toward the end, his remarks were to "US" as a whole and not any one particular faith or group. Merry Christmas, too those who enjoy these words, Happy Holidays, too those who enjoy these words and may Peace be with you, too those who enjoy those words...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=falR8JzvhlA
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.
"Albert Einstein"
[Deleted. Flamebait-Sitemonitor]
http://www.cynical-c.com/archives/bloggraphic...
http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc230/1_an...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LRIypcaIX4
Having said that, the posters who specfically point their fingers at the black community for prop 8 succeeding are making a bad situation worse with their blind rage.
too many of these so called evangelists believe that being gay is all about "sex" and not about "love". The thought of 2 guys or 2 women having sex freaks them out....when the whole time rational people understand it's a whole lot more about "love" then it is about "sex".
You can choose whom you have sex with....but you don't get to choose whom you love...love chooses YOU.
Why would anyone in this world today legislate or advocate against "love"?? Seems to me this world needs all the love it can get these days.
That's why a lot of Christian neuroses have to do with s-e-x. It's all of a piece (no pun intended).
I was against Prop 8. I'm for the State getting out of the marriage business altogether. Leave that to religion. The state should ONLY issue civil union contracts. Period.
Having set my political flag, I have to say I don't understand the headline of this article at all.
It was certainly an interesting discussion and kudos to both men for keeping it civil on Hardball, but how, exactly, did Rogers win? He made one absurd claim and stuck with it for ten minutes. Rogers' assertion is that Obama made a mistake by reaching out to Warren and that only the gay community's stubborn refusal to budge forced Warren to reevaluate his stance on gays. So Obama's ACTION accomplished nothing, but the pointed INACTION of a bunch of self-appointed "leaders" was the catalyst that changed Warren's heart. That's arrogant and ridiculous. These self-appointed "leaders" — these "movement Mugabe's" — make my temples throb. Whether it's Bill Donohue of the Catholic League, Mike Rogers of wherever-the-hell-he's-from or Al Sharpton, if I didn't vote for you, YOU'RE NOT MY LEADER.
And then Rogers smugly demands that Rick Warren meet with interest groups of Rogers' choosing in order to prove his good faith. What — the Gay leadership (which clearly isn't LEADING anywhere, according to Rogers) need do nothing to prove its good faith, but Warren has to agree to meet with them, on their turf, without preconditions? Why? Why would ANYONE agree to that?
So while I'm a huge fan of gay rights — and I wish Rogers had won — awarding the W to someone who clearly lost a debate doesn't help.
I noticed Rogers was called out for using "our community" suggesting that such language is exclusive, but did anyone notice how Reverend Eugene Rivers deliberately emphasized "WHITE" evangelical leader when talking about Warren. Especially right at the end of the clip.
I wonder why he would be so eager to distinguish white evangelicals from black evangelicals
He makes valid points, but he needs to be more concise. He goes on way to long in making his points. One of the ways the Right has beat up on us is the catch-phrases and pointed soundbites. Al Gore and John Kerry's long-windedness are excellent examples.
We need to be vary clear about something essential to the political arena: The Critique of Pure Reason DMS to 99.44% of Americans. It doesn't *matter* how overwhelmingly the facts are on our side....if the right is in control of the emotional content, the metaphors and frames of the debate, Jack and Jill Six-Pack will drink the right-wing Kool-Aid and smack their lips.
What Obama did (and the prior Democratic Prez nominees did not) was to use emotional frames and metaphors and project calm and hope.
To triumph the gays need to frame their debate in terms of G&L being "just like everybody else" and showcasing themselves as ordinary people with love and aspirations. Being strident and combative, no matter how triumphally logical, just gets you the gong.
Ooh, out-framed! Way to go.
Watch and learn. It's high time progs learned how to frame shit like this.
evangelical christianity requires a public renunciation of one's transgressions against g-d and mankind,leave aside sin itself.cleansing one's website,sweeping the nasties under the rug would not meet pastor rick's requirements if the positions were reversed.back in the late '50's warren's mentors on the christian right,publicly repudiated their historic support for jim crow schools in order to gain respectability and financial support from the general public.given the plain meaning of the words contained in the actual oath of office,how can warren have the moral authority to render this invocation-without a public statement renouncing homophobia ? without admitting that his homophobic diatribes distort and pervert the words and recorded deeds of jesus? if he doesn't apologize,we'll understand -"many are called,but few are chosen."
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