IBM Offers to Move Laid-off Workers to India
See, I'm a little confused. Because for years, big companies like IBM have insisted there were so few talented IT workers in the U.S., they had to import them from India. And yet now we have so many, we can send them to India! Isn't that funny?
If I were a suspicious sort (and God knows, I'm not), I'd wonder if this isn't really a way to keep experienced American workers while artificially suppressing their wages. And of course, I'd also have to wonder: If you're offered one of these jobs and you decline, are you then ineligible to collect unemployment compensation? Because that already happens with big companies in the U.S.
Isn't this new personal responsibility thing fun? Who knew we'd get to see the world at company expense?
The climate is warm, there's no shortage of exotic food, and the cost of living is rock bottom. That's IBM (NYSE: IBM)'s pitch to the laid-off American workers it's offering to place in India. The catch: Wages in the country are pennies-on-the-dollar compared to U.S. salaries.
Under a program called Project Match, IBM will help workers laid off from domestic sites obtain travel and visa assistance for countries in which Big Blue has openings. Mostly that's developing markets like India, China, and Brazil.
"IBM has established Project Match to help you locate potential job opportunities in growth markets where your skills are in demand," IBM says in an internal notice on the initiative. "Should you accept a position in one of these countries, IBM offers financial assistance to offset moving costs, provides immigration support, such as visa assistance, and other support to help ease the transition of an international move."
The document states that the program is limited to "satisfactory performers who have been notified of separation from IBM U.S. or Canada and are willing to work on local terms and conditions." The latter indicates that workers will be paid according to prevailing norms in the countries to which they relocate. In many cases, that could be substantially less than what they earned in North America.
IBM has laid off more than 4,000 workers in the United States since the beginning of January, according to an employee group. The company has confirmed layoffs but won't comment on specific numbers.
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Great analogy JudyLou! These tactics will only ruin what little is left of a once great company.
Ask employees to move to India after they've seen Slumdog. Maybe that's why their company's stock took a hit during the downturn.
Slumdog.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
But I've been to Delhi and I'd *never, ever* want to live & work there.
I would worry because some of their people were layoff and they ended up killing a business from Italy who worked for that company. I would think twice.
Southern Yankee
Or I'm certain corporate America would have enslaved the Martians and made them work for food.
ROFLMAO!
Oh shit, that was funny.
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
I'm waiting for the day we do discover Martians. Given what has been going on in corporate America, I think we might be the ones working for the Martians for food. LOL; I agree, a funny comment!
They won't quit until the United States is a third world nation.
were approaching that at warp speed.
to college and then Tech School. I learned my trade in electronics, electrical, and programming. I was told these were the "high tech jobs of the future". They just didn't tell me the jobs would be in India!
isn't that the truth. When I got laid off, I decided to go back to school for Computers. It's looking less promising every day. These rich bastards are trying to ship us all to third world countries so that they can have America to themselves. Turning this country into a third world country is apparently taking to long.
of needed work in THIS COUNTRY that cries out for the skilled trades. Our political and financial systems are in such a sad condition because since Reagan we've had MBAs and Wall Street suits setting our policies. And mostly, our trade policy SUCKS. We can't compete with 10 cents an hour labor. Until that changes, Ross Perot's "sucking sound" is getting louder.
I've been continuously employed as a programmer / analyst, then went the route as a consultant in the late 90s. I've missed the ups and downs that have happened since 2000, but I think my luck is finally going to end this year. I'm less worried because I've been prepared for this since about 2002, but it still doesn't make me feel great about it. I've had friends over this time period that have been out of work 12, 18, 24 months at a stretch.
At this rate it won't take to long and we will be there.
Southern Yankee
Wow! This is indeed bizarre. They will send their employees to India to work for peanuts but at least they will still have a job. Such a deal. Jesus that is so weird that snark just doesn't cover it. It's so easy to see through, the company will save a shit load in money and have the same quality worker. What evil genius came up with that plan?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
they may still have a job, but cui bono? It's an obvious attempt to drive down wages in the US. If they are hiring in India, why not the here? Obviously they need some work to be done, so they are hiring some people. So, why in India? This is just so bizarre. These guys won't be satisfied until the whole world becomes the cheap labor force that they want. Until then they will just continue to play one labor force against another.
IBM is sending American employees to India to work for their company there but for much less wages. They are trying to keep their quality labor but at shit for money wages.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I can imagine the three employees who have absolutely no family in the States considering the move, and I can see IBM paying more in legal fees than they'd owe in unemployment payments.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
The evil genius part was a snark.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Quit confusin' me, lady!
:P
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Hang in there. Life can be confusin' some times.
This was just such a weird story that snarks were coming from everywhere to be a part of it. Imagine what SNL could do with this story. The Onion?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
and lemme tell you, the charge rates for India base resources isn't that much cheaper than Australian resources (yes, that's where i am) so the margin for IBM must be very nice indeed.
In my book, they are evil morons. Employees will see through this latest, cruel plan.
But what will happen to those employees who "see through" this plan? They'll be in the US, without a job.
The US can benefit from bringing the bright, industrious and talented individuals of India here to help grow our economy.
They have so much to contribute.
Did you read the topic?
I'd like to see the import of brains and talent, not the export of it.
we have brains and talent
we have helped india grow its economy
india has the fastest growing middle class because of companies here outsourcing jobs there
dont you get it?
NAFTA and the WTO.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
that anybody in this country doesn't know someone who has been directly effected by NAFTA. I still resent the Clintons for this. I don't care if it would have passed anyway, Bill should have stood against it. The implications of it were obvious to anyone. The day it was signed was the day that this country ceased to be great.
That Hillary didn't come close to winning the Presidency!!!
I didn't vote for her.
I didn't realize Hillary signed NAFTA into law and that it was her fault ... you learn something new around here every day.
I didn't vote for her, though, because, as a Senator, she was too hawkish. Didn't like her healthcare plan either.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
that is not what I said. If you want to twist it though so that you can try to make me look stupid, then go ahead. I said, "I resent the Clintons for NAFTA." I do not trust them because of NAFTA. They sold us out by supporting NAFTA. It's just a couple of quotes up, check it out. I still wouldn't have voted for a republican over her, but I backed Obama from the get go.
I was replying to Orangutan's comment, not yours. You should really pay attention rather than get all defensive. Though you did say you resent the "Clintons" for it, and Hillary didn't have anything to do with it. And if you believe what some of her former aids have said, she was against NAFTA herself.
then my apologies.
I said that Hillary Clinton signed NAFTA, I will send you a check for $100.
It was a great thing that Hillary didn't come close to winning the Presidency because of NAFTA ... she had nothing to do with it. That was the point I was making.
put that up before seeing your other comment. Sorry, I was still on defense, for no reason as it turned out.
There are bigger fish to fry.
She's the friggin' Sec. of State!!
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Since most of Hillary peers from other countries will be men, I expect they'll enjoy her accomadations.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
We'll enjoy peace, if they'll get a piece.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://slashdot.org/firehose.pl?id=3260395&op...
Basically Sam Palmisano laying people off real quiet-like while he blathers on about creating jobs...oh, and can I have some of that bailout money too?
IBM...as evil as ever.
You must be really board if you're sipping from the fire hose.
nethead
/.#1563
And if you get there and just can't stand the place (highly likely), will Big Blue assist you with your move back? Will they?
you were forced to sell your house in a down-market. When you return, you'll be trying to buy a house with rupees?
You never know, with current trends the exchange rate might be phenomenal by that time.
They don't export much but services for an English speaking world that can't afford too many services any longer.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Someone mentioned this, this morning. If you are replying to someone's comment, perhaps begin your comment with @ followed by the name of the person you are replying to. That might clear up some of the confusion when there are several replies under one comment.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Did you mean to reply to something upthread? 8^D
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
No, it was just a suggestion for anyone who is commenting about a previous comment.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
It's bullsh*t, m*thaf...s
Intensely bothersome marketing.
I'd better move...
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
"satisfactory performers who have been notified of separation from IBM U.S. or Canada and are willing to work on local terms and conditions." But of course.
I wonder whose genius idea this was? For expatriate assignments from the US, India is considered a hardship area. For the most of us, this "offer" would be an insult. The only people who would seriously consider this would be Indian nationals who lost jobs here and would not mind going back.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
Somehow, I have a feeling even they would be insulted by the offer.
That is probably true. Imagine sending an US citizen over there with limited relocation assistance, no cultural training, no method of repatriation, no tax equalization assistance, no visa or work permit assistance---in other words nothing that they would offer a current employee on an expatriate assignment. Why it's hard enough to get current employees with full benefits to accept assignments over there, essentially they have to pony up a lot of money to bribe them into accepting.
The arrogant jackass that dreamed this up should send him or herself over there on their stingy allowance to experience the folly of their offering.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
Eventually to get a job we're all going to move outside the USA to get jobs elsewhere, and then we won't have anything to do since the USA was the one buying all the company's stuff that had moved to another country to get cheaper wages. Jeez I can' twait till robots do everything for us, then we'll just argue about what to do with all our boredom. Hell, politicians will fight for ways to cure it. Everyone fund robots! (the nice friendly and attuned to human wants and needs kind)
went to Mexico a couple of months ago, they offered some of us jobs down there. The concept of going to Mexico(or India) to find work is almost impossible to wrap the mind around. Next thing you know, Mexico will be building a fence to keep us out and we'll have coyotes that we pay to sneak us across so that we can get our old jobs back at 1/8 of our previous wages.
If my employer wanted to move me down there, I'd jump at it. I'd let them pay all my moving expenses, set me up in a nice Villa somewhere, and get all settled in and legal with all my paperwork and stuff.
Then I'd retire.
My buddy has 25 years in at GM here in west MI, and he's half expecting that when they close the plant this year (they announced the closure a month or so before they asked us for a loan), they might move him to...........OHIO!
That's a cruel joke, imo.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
-- run drugs under government protection
-- make first-class implements of war
-- follow orders from #1 or #2
you could sell T-Shirts that joke about water-boarding like Rush Limbaugh is doing now.
I didn't mean to be exclusive.
As someone who got laid off from IBM in the 90's, I'm getting a kick out of this.
/too much FARK
-ammended- not 'laid off'...'restructured'.
are you thinking of going? I here that they have great Indian restaurants there.
Congratulations.
You're on Candid Camera.
Watch what you say here.
Just a warning.
when you are you.
You don't understand that I'm on your side.
Know your enemies.
And your friends.
There are a lot of countries that I might consider moving to, but India is not one of them. That country is so crowded and poor they don't need a bunch of Americans moving in on them.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
With IBM, Microsoft, Boeing, et. al. all shipping their work overseas so blatantly, I think we are getting closer and closer to having blood in the streets of the US unless some stringent protectionist policy is enacted.
Americans let them ship the manufacturing jobs overseas because we had the technical services jobs. When the tech jobs are gone, there will be no more America. The public will no longer stand for this. If it continues at this breakneck pace, you won't have to worry about Afghanistan or Iraq, because the fight will be on US soil.
This is not good for the large companies either, since there are some cultural constraints that make Indians crap at IT (like that ever present fear of admitting you don't understand something, not to mention their caste system). Eventually, these jobs will move to China, where innovation is squelched under the jackboot of their repressive government, then these companies will get destroyed by the innovators that start up in the vacuum they leave in the US.
Ooh Ooh! I wanna go to India. I've tasted their curry and it's delicious!
they send people to India to train their replacements! They don't actually offer them a job there.
[You're right it is off topic, and I don't want a totally unrelated thread starting up in this one. Save it for an open thread. Deleted-Sitemonitor]
Clearly Americans will be willing to the jobs the Indians are no longer willing to do.
Such BS...
I can vouch that this is 100% true. I just about fell off my chair when I saw the notice. Hey, if you have any questions about the program, why don't you email the IBM Project Match office with your question, or friendly comment or suggestion ! I am sure they are looking for bright ideas on how to implement this !
prjmatch@us.ibm.com
to Mexico?
I've worked for IBM before, over the intarnets when everything was still telnet and ftp.
Americans for the few jobs they and other hi-tech companies have available here, we can drastically cut back the number of H1B Visas that are being issued for foreign workers to come here and take US jobs??! (I think that's the correct # for those visas)
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Can Indian fakirs piss up a rope?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Thinking like this:
1) The U.S. is the greatest country on Earth.
2) But to retain our jobs at home and our quality of life, we need to keep costs low for Americans.
3) Hence, we need to outsource jobs to countries where we can pay employees less.
4) And when the economy sinks at home, because people don't have jobs and can't afford to buy things, we need to cut costs.
5) Therefore, we'll move the remaining employees to India where there are plenty of jobs and the quality of life is great.
Because the U.S. is the greatest country on Earth!
I hope these people don't take the company up on the idea. I have a friend that lives in a small town where the Ostor company is. They were going to close the plant down in that small town and move it to Mexico. They even made some of the employees go to Mexico to train some of these people. After awhile they started bring back business to this small town. I was told the people couldn't get it.
Southern Yankee
well, a laid off one.
I've worked closely with IBM.
they did a smart thing with China, and with India.
with China, they sold off their crappy hardware.
all the "THINK" line series are manufactured by Lenovo.
what they got, in return was - in a nutshell...
something like 10-15 years worth of first-pick consulting.
all consulting. infrastructure, business process, etc.
meanwhile, they secure a ton of top tier India programming co's.
Americans invest into IBM. awesome...
meanwhile, India programmers have to code upgrade DB2 for a huge variety of industries. Chinese hardware manufacturers have to keep popping out firmware updates.
IBM moved a bunch of execs to China in 2005/2006. they have big plans to outsource software architecture to India. so. they need Americans in India so India investments don't let all those American investors down, and so no dumb Americans get confused by a different culture of project managers and operations people.
its no conspiracy, its just business.
watch the same Indians and Chinese undercut them in the services area, and without expensive HW to go along to justify their markups... I am going to get a kick out of seeing IBM disappear during my life time. They came close in the 80s... maybe this time is a charm. Which may be the karma they deserve for all the horrendous crap products from big blue I have had to endure during my professional career.
Although IBM is very good at living off the public tit though...
It seemed obvious to me that when one pitted the labor market against cheap foreign labor, that the standard of living would be reduced. Ross Perot famously warned about the sucking sound of departing American jobs. Now, IBM wants Americans to depart along with their jobs.
I think the problem here is that free trade has been adapted as an ideology. Ideologues tend to ignore the data that contradicts their theory, but the trade deficits speak for themselves. We have, to an extent, been able to use the Nasdaq bubble, and then later on, the real estate bubble, along with unsustainable consumer borrowing to counteract the effect of not making anything anymore.
I see a lot of articles in the foreign press like this one, where we are given a false choice of either continuing with free trade, or returning to Hoover style protectionism of the 1930s. Actually, we need to return to the policies of the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Free trade rewards countries who don't permit their workers to join unions, rewards countries that don't provide health care for their workers, and reward those who have lax environmental standards. It seemed to me that trade agreements should have been more selective.
Anyway, I've read elsewhere that our "Buy American" provisions of the stimulus plan may violate our trade agreements. The whole idea of deficit spending is to create a Keynesian multiplier effect, that especially works at the point of manufacture. If we can't spend money that the Treasury is going into debt for, in America, we have waived too much of our sovereignty.
While I don't agree with most of what this dude says, I think his points on free trade (but not tax policy) more than not, hit the mark.
“Up through World War II, we followed the Hamiltonian idea that America must remain economically independent of the world in order to remain politically independent.
But this generation decided that was yesterday's bromide and we must march bravely forward into a Global Economy, where we all depend on one another.
American companies morphed into "global companies" and moved plants and factories to Mexico, Asia, China and India, and we began buying more cheaply from abroad what we used to make at home: shoes, clothes, bikes, cars, radios, TVs, planes, computers. ...
The Last Superpower is unable to defend its borders, protect its currency, win its wars or balance its budget. Medicare and Social Security are headed for the cliff with unfunded liabilities in the tens of trillions of dollars. ...
What the Greatest Generation handed down to us — the richest, most powerful, most self-sufficient republic in history, with the highest standard of living any nation had ever achieved — the baby boomers, oblivious and self-indulgent to the end, have frittered away.”
Instead of being self-sufficient, we have handed Communist China an economic nuke, with their $1.2T in cash and $400B in treasury securities.
Welcome to Fascism!!! We have been a Fascist Kountry for years...and I have been talking about it. I was only called a kook. Who the hell are the kooks now? Amerikans are pussies, cowards, and idiots.
.
Good luck trying to support your wife and kids earning a salary which is a fraction of what it is here in the States. Oh, by the way, is IBM going to provide security for American workers since I'm sure the locals are going to be less than happy to see your Yankee face after you've taken their jobs. On the other hand, I'm trying to imagine me, with my NY dialect, working in a call center there. Yep, I can see it now: "Yeah, dis is Jugdesh, stop bustin' my freakin' balls and tell me whaddya want!"
If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders.
George Carlin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
I use to work with several IT professionals (programmers, database, analysts, etc.) and they are out of work. Not because of the downturn, but because their employers hire Indian contractors. See for yourself.
is play along with the fools at IBM.
Say sure I would love to move to India go ahead and do everything they want you to do spend every last penny they give you to move and at the last minute say I changed my mind!
Ans just refuse to go at least you get something out of it.
What you need is revenge on these people!
Maybe we should go jihadi on all these scum in American big business and the government and especially the republican party!
I'm very much a liberal and am very skeptical about anything a big corporation does, but please! Have I accidentally logged into Lou Dobbs or Glenn Back? I see two very scary threads here. The first is many of you sound like Eugene Fama trying to prove stimulus plans don't work or second Glenn Beck waiting for the army of Mexicans! We have to be better than this!
For the record, I moved to Hyderabad, India almost 2 ½ years ago from Seattle and I am very happy here. I find many of the India cracks to be extremely offensive. A very good friend of mine makes $25,000 a year as a French professor here, and yes she's Indian. Most of the guys I work with earn about $30k a year and salary expectations are 25% raises for the best employees. Our head of HR makes $60k and our former COO made $80k before he quit to run an NGO. Note a significant trend in these numbers. The top people here make 4 or 5 times the working guys, not 100 times. Tax rates here make high salaries silly like the US used to do. I have a cook and someone who comes in and cleans and the company has a car and driver to share. But, they don't live in slums. They all have cell phones and motor bikes and tv and even cable. This is the maid and driver. OK, most of you would not want to live in their house, but it's a hell of a lot better than was here 20 years ago.
People in India are happy. They made huge political changes that threw the country into an era of prosperity. They have free schooling for as long as you can pass the exams. They have low interest loans much better than our college loans. They have FAR more disposable income than we do. I make 4x what they do and they all have better cameras or laptops or bikes or whatever. India made this happen, not NAFTA. They aren't even part of NA! India made it happen by having improved literacy while we debate evolution! India did it while we think trickle down might be neat. They did it while we let our infrastructure collapse. Imagine what will happen when they get their corruption problems fixed! Man you'll be pissed at the jobs they will gobble up! They do this all with both arms and one leg tied behind their back because they drive after it like the US used to.
Don't blame India for America's mess. America did it all by itself. Imagine you and your next door neighbor are unemployed. He gets a job that you wanted to get. Do you blame discrimination? Do you complain that he would work for 10% less than you asked for? Or do you congratulate him and ask him to watch out for any openings?
You all would quote Krugman against a neocon who opposed Obama's stimulus plan. Would you then attack him for his support of free trade? It's what he won his Nobel on, and he is in favor of it. I study and use a lot of economics. I'm not an expert by any stretch, but I know that we are not in a zero sum game. India can succeed and not hurt us. America is failing because of America and not because of India. America coasted for 40 years and said government is bad and greed is good, but we have come to the end of the buffet we created in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. And now we blame other nations for not waiting till we get our act together? We should have all been building for the future. Not acting like crabs in a pot.
I'm very disappointed today in liberal America. Are we really only a mirror to the right? Can't we discuss IBM's policy without trashing my new home or wishing it never had an economic opportunity? I leave you with this. A nasty secret of outsourcing, and the company I work for has abandoned outsourcing because of this fact, only saves a few % and all of that is due to US tax code.
And I lied. One more factoid. Hyderabad recycles 98% of its garbage. Can any of your cities beat that?
Typical IBM tactics, once a highly respected and secure place to work. No one should be confused. This is just another in a long history now of not taking care of employees, even the best ones. The only kind of person who should work for this company is a young male who will get a few years of experience and company training and LEAVE!
There are 8 million American Workers out of work and each day tens of thousands of workers being laid off. During the Bush regime, approx. 4 million jobs were outsourced, the highest in history.
Levi Strauss, Dell, Microsoft, B of A, Direct T.v. Capital One, just to mention a few, these are American Companies that got their start here in America. We have to address why all these companies are outsourcing and to stop it. Companies here in America can bring foreign workers into America to work for less wages. While 8 million workers are not working and it takes 6 mos to get a job, and about 1/3 of the people have to relocate why on earth is this allowed?
I know several people who worked in India and they said never again. This is not the American Dream, to work in a foreign country.
Where have all the American jobs gone?
Gone to China, India and Taiwan.
When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn.
Where have all our savings gone?
Gone to live on because we don't have a job
When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn.
Where has my house gone?
Gone to foreclosure because I don't have a job.
When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn.
Where has my health gone?
Gone down because eating food contaminated from Mexico, China and Hondurus.
When will we ever learn, when will we ever learn.
The last one out of America, please turn off the light.
OK, so IBM offers to take care of some laid-off workers...granted moving to India isn't exactly the greatest, but it's better than NOTHING, which is what most laid-off workers are going to get! Yet all y'all can do is bitch about it. Sure, wages there will be low, but Living Expenses are low also! As someone who is planning on retiring in Uruguay because I can't afford to retire here in my own country, I don't see why this is such a goddamn big problem.
right? Who do they sell their homes to? For how much? Where do the kids go to school? Friends? Family? Living expenses are low in Lagos, Nigeria too. There's lots of ads on Monster but I doubt they'll be a mass migration there.
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