Obama Says No to More Auto Industry Bailout Money
By Susie Madrak Monday Mar 30, 2009 9:15amJohn Rich performs his new country song, "Shutting Detroit Down," which in the past two weeks is becoming a working-class anthem. Gee, I wonder why? Maybe the media bobbleheads can tell us where all this crazy, wacky populist rage is coming from...
Me, I'm just flabbergasted by today's news. All those things Obama's saying to Detroit, a city of working people left devastated, about sacrifice and restructuring - why isn't he saying them to Wall Street, too?
WASHINGTON -- President Barack Obama on Monday will reject requests for almost $22 billion in new taxpayer bailout money for General Motors Corp. and Chrysler, saying the car makers have failed to take steps to ensure their viability.
[...] A senior administration official, briefing reporters late Sunday night on the condition of anonymity in order to speak freely, said Obama will call for more sacrifice from carmakers, their investors and automotive unions.
Billionaire bankers (and their investors) walk away from the table with their pockets stuffed with taxpayer cash while members of the auto workers union are told they'll have to sacrifice even more - in this case, the Obama administration wants the companies to get rid of "old liabilities" - i.e. retiree pensions. (You know, while bankers complain about having to sell the house in the Hamptons.)
No, Obama's not talking about the insolvent banks. He's talking about Detroit. Could he make it any more obvious that the wealthy are a protected class?
"If they're not willing to make the changes and the restructurings that are necessary, then I'm not willing to have taxpayer money chase after bad money."
Funny, that's just how I feel about Citibank!
And what's all this crap about bringing the cost of wages in line with Japanese auto workers - whose government provides free health care? Why are workers the only ones expected to bear that burden? That's a right-wing meme if ever I heard one.
I'm not even arguing with the concept that deep cuts have to be made now to save the industry for later. For all I know, the union really is dragging their feet in negotiations. But how can the administration not see how it looks to the rest of the country?
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how did voting Republican for the last 30 years work out for all you auto union workers?
Hey...as you're walking off to the unemployment office, remember to wear your flag pins and shout USA USA USA.
I'm sure the majority of them voted for Obama.
and I'm sure they're still watching FOX Noise.
You reap what you sow.
Let's all wrap ourselves in the American flag and bust a union!! YAAAAAAY!
Ronnie Reagan...a TRUE American...USA! USA! USA!
GH Bush...old grampy...fightin' Sadam!! USA! USA! USA!!
GHW Bush...everyone's beer drinkin' buddy! Protected us AFTER 9/11...yaaay...he got that Sadam! He found those WMDs!! USA USA! Ohhh..he deregulated Wall Street and kept those liberals from takin over! Look at that market SOAR!! USA USA USA!!
You are an obnoxious jerk, spewing a 20 year old meme about the quality of American cars. They do build fuel efficient, quality built vehicles that people want. THE BANKS AREN'T GIVING LOANS, GET IT?! I have a 14 year old GMC pickup with high mileage and no problems (I have to carry lumber and tools, so save your self rightious crap about driving a full sized truck). My wife and stepson both own Saturn Auras, they are very high quality, fuel efficient vehicles. Obviously your blind hate for the American auto industry keeps you from accually trying one. If all they sold were hyrids they would have been out of business a long time ago. Your vaunted Toyota and Nissan started building full sized trucks because, whether you like it or not, that is what people wanted. Unfortunately they are not anywhere near as well built or fuel efficient as their American made counterparts. And if you think anybody but the upper eschelon get golden parachutes, you are ignorant. People like yourself obviously think auto workers are overpaid, shouldn't have health insurance or pensions, perhaps you should be over at 'Little Green Footballs' with the rest of the haters. Liberal And Proud indeed!
Youre correct. Unfortunately, buyers have long memories of American cars that rusted (1960's), ran poorly (1970's), had crappy quality (1980's), poor value (1990's). I know - my folks went from a Chevy to a Pontiac to a Ford to a Honda (2x). My daughter is now driving their last Honda.
Me? I've owned an American for about 3 years during the last 35 years. My ex- got it (a Cutlass) in the divorce!!!
first car: 1974 Ford Pinto. Died at 60k. Epic FAIL. Grade: F
second car: 1976 Pontiac Firebird. died at 70k Epic FAIL. Grade: D-
third car: 1972 Chevy Nova SS. *AWESOME*. except for the transmission. It needed too much TLC. Sold it at 85k Grade: A-
fourth car: 1964 Dodge Dart. Clunky, rusty, uncomfortable, plastic POS. ALWAYS STARTED. NEVER DIED. couldn't afford to patch the rust any more, so I gave it away at 130k. Grade: C+
fifth car: 1987 Toyota Tercel. Awesome. did major commuting for YEARS in this thing. Never failed in a serious way. finally died at (no, I'm not joking) 326k mi. grade: A
sixth car: 1989 Toyota Tercel wagon. Excellent. Had some nasty transmission issues for a while, but once fixed, lasted for a very long time, sold it at 160k mi to sister who drove it for another 55k mi. grade: B+
seventh car: 1991 Toyota Corolla. Excellent. Had some problem with the heating coil behind the dash - was expensive to fix. Otherwise NO problems outside the ordinary. bought it at 135k mi, sold it at 190k mi. Grade: A-
eighth car: 1997 Audi A4 1.8T. Bought new. Stunning. Incredible car. Had transmission issues, but under warranty, so no big deal. Otherwise, awesome. Sold it with 220k mi. Grade: A
ninth car: 2007 Toyota Prius. Bought new. Best car I have ever owned. Period. Grade A+.
In between, we would go on trips and rent american cars, and EVERY single time it was "eeewwwwwww!!!! this SUCKS!!!"
So, sorry, but American cars have sucked for so long and so badly, I don't trust them. Except for 72 Novas. They Kick Ass.
I'm sure they won't have to walk to the unemployment office.
They can hang glide on THEIR golden parachutes, just like Mr. Waggoner.
their fate was sealed under Reagan
but ulitmately...businesses have to make money and make products that people WANT. GM did neither. GM lived off of its financing arms, and believed it knew better than their customers which cars to push.
Both the union management and auto companies got in bed together to put together cushy deals for themselves, that were NOt based on economics.
Management caved on demands in order to avoid strikes. Unions avoided strikes to avoid tapping their emergency cash slush funds.
This is what happens when crony capitalism is allowed to run rampant.
So am, I that you are so misinformed.
Until gas hit $4 a gallon what people said they wanted was gas guzzling SUVs. They were helped to develop this outlook by Madison Avenue which can sell anything except $4 gas for $1.
Beyond the gas crunch is the credit crunch which is the continuing issue. The vast credit bubble implosion affects everyone. All of the automakers sales, domestic and foreign are dropping like stones.
People are afraid to spend money if they have it, or can't get loans if they don't have it.
Show me some documentation for this assertion. Ron Gettelfinger makes $160k a year, not three times a line worker. This for a union of 460,000.
The Auto execs could make $20 mil, FOUR HUNDRED times a line worker. Explain to me how the union was in bed with the company.
Show some proof of this assertion against the union if you have any. If you don't, STFU.
If you have a boss, you need a union. When the unions go down the workers in this country will be working for what the Chinese are working for.
NOTHING
The union attempts to get a decent wage and conditions for its members, the workers. If the company can't agree to the terms then they shouldn't put it in a contract.
Then there is issue of health care insurance. This is where the US automakers are at the disadvantage. Go across the the Detroit river and they make the same car for $1000 less because Canada has national health. So does Japan.
Management agrees to what they can pay at the time. If they can't live with it they don't sign the contract.
If the Union membership can't live with the terms they strike. The atmosphere for strikes has been so hostile in this country against labor since Reagan that no one were dare bring a major strike.
Emergency cash slush funds!?!? If think there is something amiss with the UAW or its handling of members funds report them to the DOL.
You can obtain complete cash accounting online of any International or Local Union here.
What does labor have except the right to withhold their services.
Crony Capitalism between Washington and Detroit is ancient history.
After WWII the automakers, the tire companies and the oil companies set about repealing mass transportation. By the 50s they had developed enough support to have Eisenhower call for the interstate highway system.
This was the largest public works project in history. It tore up our major cities with the claim of national security to be able to evacuate them in case of attack.
It was done to enrich private developers in outlying areas and to sell cars and the sundries.
That was Crony Capitalism then. It created the infrastructure we have today which will be completely unsustainable after oil peaks. Oil may already have peaked.
Today the Crony Capitalism is between Washington and the Wall Street Bankers. The support for Detroit and manufacturing in general has been like one constant root canal.
Congress holds hearings and crucifies the auto executives. Fine, but where are the hearings for the hundreds of billions, trillions given the Bankers.
That is Crony Capitalism today. 50 billion for the car companies, TEN TRILLION for the Banksters.
ONE HUNDRED to ONE. The car companies get $1 dollar, the Banksters get $99.
Paulson's Plunder continues under Geithner's stewardship.
And you want to put this shit on the autoworkers and their union.
If you have a boss, you NEED a UNION.
If you're a worker and are anti-union, then you and your wife, kids, dogs, and bird can starve for all of me...
Swallow a bolus...
Earlier in the decade, the OPEC oil cartel rocked the United States economy with price increases. A second round of increases was launched in 1978, leading to a greater demand on the part of auto buyers for Japanese imports and a significant drop-off in the sale of U.S.-made cars. The UAW joined forces with the Big Three to fend off the Japanese threat and offered wage concessions to improve competitiveness. Fraser even took a set on Chrysler's board of directors, ostensibly to serve as a watchdog, but when Chrysler cut employment by 57,000, closing ten plants, the UAW was complicit in the decisions, and the locals had no choice but to capitulate
http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histor...
YOU STFU.
I'll find more.
TRY reading, and leave emotionality out of it. You don't like history and the truth. That's tough. Grow up.
I'm the SON of a union laborer.
I've FORGOTTEN more than you'll ever know.
And I didn't use the GOOGLE to learn it.
Psuedo liberal and misinformed.
The union gave concessions, what is your point.
even YOU can understand this.
Why concede? Afraid of jobs or was union management too soft in their cushy executive offices.
The power of unions is in the STRIKE. Every laborer in the world...except in this pussy country understands that.
Union MANAGEMENT conceded. Read the sentence.
Unions were formed harshly in this country...and in every country. That is how it works. Heads were broken. The country brought to a standstill. That kind of power is all that unions have, and it is the only thing that corporate executives understand.
Misinformed. Read the history of the AFL-CIO.
Labor has only the sheer power of their numbers.
Outlawing strikes in this country was, is and will always be ILLEGAL. Despite what Reagan said and cowed the country into accepting.
And we know how it was done...they call unions...COMMUNISTS...SOCIALISTS...UnAmerican.
And as far as your posts are concerned. I find them tiresome. You google something and then post volume upon volume of disjointed, unrelated events and circumstances...overwhelm the audience with volumes of bullshit...and then act smug because you view non reponses as acceptance of your bullshit.
And when you get a response you don't like, you respond with personal attacks and snide remarks.
I am a union member in Detroit. I am also on and off again union management in a union where the management makes almost nothing. Literally.
I know something about Labor Law and I know something about Labor History.
I often go by the Miller street underpass where Ford's goons beat in organizer's heads.
Rick Wagoner's executive secretary makes more than Gettelfinger does. Don't talk to me about cushy offices.
The membership ratify their agreements.
The membership ratify their agreements.
Yeah...been to union hall lately. It's called using mob psychology in order to achieve your ends.
What is your point?
Look up "wildcat strike", and try to remember the last time we had one in this country.
My point is simple. Union management has been cowed.
If they really wanted to change GM, then there should have been strikes in the '80s, '90s, and 2000s.
Rest assured, Waggoner would have been long gone. Rest assured that it would have gotten the attention of Washington way early in the game. Rest assured that GM would have CHANGED.
But NOOOO...the GOP wrapped itself in the flag and workers were distracted and/or villified. And what happened....anti labor laws approved, court cases lost and jobs shipped overseas...labor destroyed...all without a fight.
Union management has been cowed by the hostility of Washington and the vitriol of the Corporate media.
The UAW doesn't design the cars. The members build them.
What is your point.
The Labor Relations Act of 1935 was the first and only victory for labor in this country.
Its revision in 1947 known commonly as the Taft Hartley act was the first big blow to labor.
Labor has never recovered.
I don't need to look it up, I know exactly what it is.
What is your point. The country is hostile to unions, to union members and to strikes.
You seem to be one of them.
No. I am not. I am the most pro union person on this blog.
I am disgusted with union management and with union workers who have forgotten HOW their union was formed, what it took...and what it takes to keep it.
No. Poor car design is the problem of management. Those problems were blamed on UNION CONTRACTS! Ohhh...we're inefficient...when the real issue was...management made SHITTY PRODUCTS.
If they actually RAN the company correctly, the union contracts aren't a problem...are they.
So...by conceding on union contracts...the union simply maintains the status quo.
Am I going too fast for you>?
Union management is defined by the Labor Management Reporting and Disclosure act of 1959 as amended.
Unions are democratic organizations.
Read the law and get back to me.
how's that law thing working out for you.
What...afraid you'll lose your job and go to prison if you break the law.
Oh well.
Seems to me, that that is happening anyway.
But gosh...it would be so Unamerican to go all European over this.
What the fuck are you talking about.
You are irrational.
The law is working fine for me. I always follow it to a 'T'.
29 USC chapter 7 describes Labor and Management relations. Chapter 11 describes the democratic nature of unions.
My hunch is you don't know the first thing about 29 USC.
You're disgusted with union management?!?!
Here you are showing your true colors.
If you are member of the particular union you vote the management out of office.
If you are not a member of the particular union, then why worry.
if union management was doing such a great job...why is the UAW in so much trouble?
Or are you happy with the status quo.
You quote rules and regulations...the tools of oppressor to keep you ill informed and under control.
One non sequitur after another.
The UAW is in trouble because the Companies are in trouble.
You fault them for caving, you fault them for not striking.
Just admit it, you are anti union.
Union representation in the private sector is below 10% of the workforce.
When the unions are gone the workers will be making what the Chinese workers are.
I have sacrificed in my own life to advance the cause of unions.
I quoted US labor law which is the law of the land. Some of it I would like to repeal.
I keep pushing for the repeal of 29 USC sec 164 (b) - the so called right to work provisions.
There are others but this is largely pointless discussion.
you make accusations at others...quote rules...but at the end of the day...other than saying you are "pro union"...you have no point.
I make precise points, you do not respond.
I quote labor law which is the law of the land.
You seem to know nothing about it.
29 USC chapter 11 defines union membership bill of rights. It governs bylaws, elections and union management financial responsibilities. It is a well written law and I am all for it.
29 USC chapter 7 is mixed bag, some of it I would like to repeal.
You do not respond to my specific points.
US Bankruptcy law is written so that Corporations can tear up their union contracts, screw their workers and shaft their bond holders.
I am not overly sympathetic to the bond holders but I would change the law as far as the unions go.
I make all of these points, you do not respond, instead you say I have no point.
Where is your debate. I will debate you point by point of US labor law, because that is the law unions must operate under. If you know nothing about the law admit it.
If you are anti union management, admit it.
We know the law.
You're point is you say you're powerless.
I say no you aren't.
You say..this is the law.
I say...ok...bend over and enjoy or do something to change it.
You say...this is the law.
It's not a government's job to bail out ANY industry. If they are too big to fail, then they need broken down into sizeable, workable, loosable businesses.
...different than ShitiBank in the "too big to fail" scenario.
Either failure would have bad effects on the economy but the overall attitude towards ShitiBank is "what ever you need".
the obamanauts would have to agree that Obama has made a fucking hash out of just about everything he's touched...
Look at what he's had to touch. When has a president ever been left with a bigger mess to clean up than him? Certainly no one since Roosevelt. It was Bush who royally and purposefully fucked up this country (while his robber baron friends rode away in golden chariots) in a way that we might never recover from.
There's been war waged on the working class for 30+ years. Obama has been in office for two months. We've had too many presidents and Congresses who thought they were sent to Washington to protect the interest of their wealthy and powerful friends and bribers, and a citizenry that was somehow duped into not only accepting that but fighting for it. If you've voted Republican anytime in the past 30 years, you're the one with the Kool-Aid mustache.
I don't agree with everything Obama has said and done, but I'm not ready to blame him for our ills... yet.
amen
The shit is now hitting the fan. President Obama is merely the messenger.
This didn't happen over nite. All these problems have taken 30 odd years to gestate.
Now they're being born...and the country has to live with the labor pains. Excuse the unintended pun.
And why can't this approach be applied to the banks?
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/26...
I'm not happy about this. I simply saw this coming...back in 1980.
I saw it when Reagan campaigned...I saw it when he broke the ATC union.
I was estranged from my family for years, a family of blue collar union workers, the classic Reagan Democrat, because I couldn't believe that they couldn't see it nor even listen to what I was saying.
I was called a "commie" by my own family.
This is all very personal for me, but the fact is...although I may emphathize with those caught in this mess...I don't sympathize.
I'm originally from Detroit and I saw this coming too. I have friends and relatives in the auto industry who didn't want to believe this could happen.
Reagan did more damage to this country than I think will be properly calculated for decades and decades to come. he was a real, genuine disaster. he just wasn't as overtly disastrous as GWB.
And in reality GWB didn't do anything his predecessors hadn't already done - illegal wars, war profiteering, torture, spying on US citizens, etc etc - GWB was just 100 times more in-your-face about it.
I figure GWB grew up seeing his dad and his dad's buddies doig all these things and just assumed it was OK, that it's part of being president and ruling the US and, of course, the rest of the world.
I'm from the rust belt, with union parents and grandparents, and I totally agree with you. This is a long time coming. Really, shoulda woulda listened to Carter.
I don't think Obama said outright no to a bailout. What I read was that he gave GM sixty days of working capital to restructure and Chrysler 30 days. At the end of those time periods a decision will be made concerning further help.
Chrysler needs to go under. I think they have had their hands out 3 times and there is no end in sight for their begging for money. The Chrysler management team has NEVER tried to become a viable entity. I feel sorry all those Chrysler workers, but I am tired as a tax payer of bailing out this company.
I feel sorry for the workers in Detroit BUT the auto industry has never accepted the challenge to build fuel efficient cars and cars that would outlast their monthly payments. Toyota and Honda hit the market with cars that lasted and were cheap in terms in gas. Did the auto industry pay attention NO. When they finally smartened up, the foreign auto industry was big.
Chrysler was fried years ago...when Daimler got out.
They've been owned essentially by a venture capital firm, that's been trying to sell them for at least two years.
No takers.
There is no business there. It's DONE. Been DONE. They should have been liquidated at MINIMUM 18 months ago.
But I bet Jeeps will be on sale at bargain basement prices real soon!
They didn't want to hear the truth back in the seventies, so they hitched their wagon to Ronnie Feelgood and went on their merry way.
as for the banking bailouts, they were MEANT to help everyone, not just a few overpaid execs. Now we're back to "No body could have foreseen" that they would keep the money for themselves.
that the Republican Party was never concerned with the best interests of the common working man.
here's an idea!
Let's put Ronnie Reagan on Mt. Rushmore! USA USA!
No no...let's put him on the $10 bill! USA USA USA!!
I remember when the $10 bill was worth $10.
will get to wipe my ass before it goes back into circulation...
$20 is the new $5
and I agree with your points. We sort of heard you the first 10 times :-)
I support digging up the SOB's corpse and installing it in a public toilet in the middle of the national mall. We could even have a counter on how many visitors and give away prizes for the millionth user etc.
But yeah, repubs sure do seem obsessed with him don't they? I remember one time they wanted to put his mug on the dime.
I refuse to call the airport in Washington, D.C. "Reagan National." Just not going to do it. I felt the same way when I lived in Orange Country and I had to speak of "John Wayne Airport." Yuck.
where's George? I really feel like having a beer with him.
I want to hear his golden tongue waxing poetic about the wonders of the free market!
I'm sure glad we got that Saddam fella! He was gonna destroy 'Murica.
And thank goodness teh gays ain't marryin', that coulda taken down the country!!
and the flag burnin! Thank goodness...we stopped the flag burning! The liberals were destroyin' the country.
I'd love to have a beer...hit Georgie in the head.
and the mind fungas grows and grows its allmost like it was planted by dwarfs from the planet of uranus!
We must protect the blastocyts...and encourage the adoption of snow flake babies.
They're America's future!!!!
I understand the rage and the seeming unfairness and back-tracking on President Obama's part, but you have to remember a couple of things.
1. The villagers are running out of patience on these bail-outs and the GOP and most of the media are driving this.
2. Obama has a substantial agenda to get through that will only be possible with the support of the villagers.
3. The main difference between the auto and the banking industry is that only one of these can cause the collapse of the entire economy.
4. You have to make choices and you just can not please all of the people all of the time.
Personally, I think it is way early to start throwing our President under the buss. Let's see what he has accomplished a year or two from now and until then, I think he has earned a little trust and space to operate.
Especially No. 3. Kicking the props out from under the banks would probably skunk the entire economy.
you have totally misconstrued the issue here. I voted for Barack Obama because I voted for CHANGE. I voted for Barack because I wanted a change from the Bushes, a change from Clinton, and a Change from Reagan.
1. The villagers are running out of patience, They are running out of patience with Obama and the Dems playing snuggle snuggle here is some cash with the bankers. We want the people who caused this mess to FAIL and be liquidated, not proped up with taxpayer cash. Honest to christ if Obama can't see that bailing out the autoworkers will be percieved differently then bailing out wall street and the bankers then I really have no clue who else to vote for.
2. Right now I am kind of scared of the "Obama agenda" and I am a life long democrat. I am a teacher and all I see is Obama completely missing the boat on a G.W. scale when it comes to education. When will we learn that what happens in our society affects what happens in our schools? The answer is we won't. We won't not because its hard, we won't because we don't want to confront that our failing schools is a direct result of our failing society. Its a direct result of broken up families, and families that have to work 4 and 5 jobs to take care of the children. Parents are so wrapped up in working that many can't raise their children. Whose to blame for this? Not just the teachers or that "evil" unions, its every damn one in our society whose to blame for our educational system. Don't tell me about agenda please, don't try to sell me on an agenda until you are dealing with reality.
3. Bull excrement. Complete and utter bull excrement. The difference between the auto industry and the banking industry is that these people in washington are complicit in the income redistribution machine that is known as Wall Street. The reason why we have money for wall street and not for main street (those poor UAW workers and their families in the automobile industry) is a question of lobbies and money for campaigns.
4. While I understand the concept of you can't please all the people all of the time, you can live up to your campaign promises. Barack promised that every day he would be focused on making life better for the working family. This isn't what we have seen from Barack. In fact in most every big decision, he has made it better for the big insurance execs and banking execs as well as their co conspirators the high thieves of wall street. Its time to really get angry and demand Barack start acting like the democrat we put into office. If he doesn't want to act like one its time to find a replacement for him in the next election. We need the Barack that does what he promised. The Barack that looks out for our families for main street and stops Kow towing to these damn wall street insurance execs and the big bankers. Its time to let Citi bank die. Its time to allow any bank who can't find the capital die. Its time to control their deaths so as to minimize the impact on families. Its time for Barack to start acting like a democrat and start looking a lot less like the damn neo conartists we voted the hell out of office.
"1. The villagers are running out of patience on these bail-outs and the GOP and most of the media are driving this."
Obama has the bully pulpit. He has elected to, or is content with the villagers and the GOP driving the message.
Throwing the last of real american manufacturing under the bus is something I would have expected out of McCain.
Obama is encouraging GM to claim bankruptcy so they may shed all of their promises to workers.
His tepid support for the new union laws being proposed speaks volumes to me also.
Hopefully he'll work out, but at this point I feel like I've been had.
3. The main difference between the auto and the banking industry is that only one of these can cause the collapse of the entire economy.
____________________________________
Only one of these HAS caused the collapse of the entire economy. TWICE! It's time to do a Ma Bell-style bustup of these "too big to fail" banks and financial institutions. I don't so much fear that we won't get out of these financial straits (eventually), I fear that we won't have learned our lessons and fixed it so that this can't happen again.
These times are a true test of whether our government is capable of working in OUR best interests and not just the best interests of their corporate campaign donors. I'm skeptical. I'm also skeptical about whether our government has what it takes to tackle our long-term problems and start investing in a better America 10, 20, 50 years from now.
than rant.
why don't ya stop over at the FOX news blog...or Little Green Anuses.
I'm sure they're filled with fresh ideas...like eliminating unemployment, Social Security and lowering taxes on the rich.
your IQ level.
that's why I understand them so well.
Know your enemy.
"if she really wanted to make a point...she'd show us her tits."
And if she did, I know you would have seen them coming.
I would have.
Poor Monica, if only tits were brains.
tits on their brains or shit for brains.
well..."tits on their brains" isn't fatal if it's caught early.
As for shit for brains...leave Rush Limbaugh outta dis.
Ditto Beck. Mention marijuana legalization and the servers overload.
What is this folk singer arguing?
That the gov't should keep bailing out GM and Chrysler a 4th, 5th time? How long does it go on for?
Why did the Big 3 keep building SUV gas-guzzlers? Why didn't they innovate? Why didn't they have a few good low-mileage compacts that could have been ramped up for the North American market in case gas prices went up? Why was it left to Toyota to build the best-selling hybrid car?
The banks got bailed out for a good reason. They supply credit, without which the economy can't function. No credit, no GM. No investment. No growth. No credit = Deflation and Depression. That's why FDR briefly took over the banking system, created the FDIC and enacted Glass-Steagall in the 30s.
The whine about favoritism to bank CEOs is not quite accurate. More than 200 banks have been liquidated in the US since the credit crisis began. Throw in Bear Stearns, AIG and others. All these CEOs are gone. Liddy, the guy who runs AIG, is a gov't appointee.
Getting rid of Rick Waggoner means nothing. The guy ran GM through some of its best years, and market share went straight down. He failed. Obama is only doing what shareholders should have done ages ago.
The singer should be singing about single-payer health insurance and pension reform. Makes for a more boring song, but it might actually mean something.
"Gawwwd Blessss...hy..po...cri...syyyyyyy"!!!
HE is an exact representation of the major problem. Working class people that support/vote against their own economic interests.
"Rasin' McCain" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmKgITJejfg
'...while they're living it up on Wall Street in that New York City town' Can't you can almost hear him sneer as he says New York City?
Here he is on Glen Beck's show
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,510758,00...
Fuck Rich and the horse he rode in on.
John Rich is a no talent rude republican actively campaigned for John McCain. John cares as much about the working man and women of this country as the racist Sen. Bob Corker of Tn.
"The banks got bailed out for a good reason. They supply credit, without which the economy can't function. No credit, no GM. No investment. No growth. No credit = Deflation and Depression. That's why FDR briefly took over the banking system, created the FDIC and enacted Glass-Steagall in the 30s."
____________________________________________________
The banks got bailed out without ever having to sign on to supplying credit, without oversight, without a plan for solvency, and even without telling anyone what they did with the money. And they got 100 times more of it than the auto companies.
And it wasn't just banks that got bailed out. It was also investment firms and our biggest insurance company, which don't supply credit. In the case of AIG, they used a couple hundred billion taxpayer dollars to pay out on the insane bets made by (who else?) the other big recipients of major bailout dollars. Just a big cash-infused circle jerk, sponsored by you and me.
And now GM is going under in part because they can't get credit from these huge banks who were given our bailout money in order that they would extend credit to companies like GM. What suckers we are! Why are we not in the streets with pitchforks and torches?
Obama had a press conference this morning and announced his continuing but conditional support for the automakers, but not Rick Wagoner.
Here is Bloomberg.
Your post is incomplete and misleading.
I reacted just as angrily until I started reading the details, and now I rather agree with Obama et al.
like another suggested when I said this post was simplistic rant.
Like AIG and Citibank???
Didn't you see the article where the bankers were complaining about the rules changing after they got the money? I think the Chairman of Wells Fargo called the whole thing "asinine". Karma is coming for them soon, I feel it in my bones....
Did you read that some of them are scrambling to give back the money?
Of course the most corrupt (cough, AIG, CitiGroup) will still suck up Trillions, but the tap is being turned off albeit way too slowly.
we must avoid playing "the blame game"!
think so (in terms of whether this will blow up for Obama in a bad way). see - the country does not at all favor continued propping up of our failed auto industry. it ranks lower in polls as an expenditure than does bailing out the banks.
so, its pretty much a political consideration, one which Obama now uses to grab some room on the political right because 'hey, I took those unions down notch, didn't I?'
so Obama has called for restructuring, which GM clearly needs. in the finance world, some of you still think we're living in the Teddy Roosevelt era when government was winning this fight against big, big money. sorry to break it to you, but it lost, very badly, during the god damn Reagan era, and its never coming back unless everything falls apart. and nobody wants everything to fall all the way apart, so its not happening.
yes, those massive banks DO indeed get to move politicians, even Presidents, around like little pawns. sucks, but that's reality. Obama is no more the boss of those banks than I am the boss of the blog authors here. the government giving money to the banks doesn't weaken the banks' position. why? because for all of the people clamoring for nationalization, people don't seem to realize that if our govt. buys these banks we will own their massive debts. people say "why bail them out for $50 billion when you could buy them for $10". true, but not at all the point. buying a bank for $10 B does NOTHING to get rid of its debts! you still owe that money, you've just also spent $10 B to get the bank! I hope people figure this out one day...
I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with placing preconditions and requirements on the automotive industry, it's in dire need of a reboot.
But to pretend that the bank debts are real? Please, most of that is funny money not worth the paper it's printed on.
All hail the fuhrer?
Let me first say I voted for Obama as of course the lesser of two evils. And no I am not a Hillary Clinton supporter either. Why are progressives and liberals surprised at the moves Obama is making. He told you time and time again where his politics lay. He is Clinton redux, as his cabinet represents. And all that crap about where he got his campaign funds, really. I printed out his campign funds in July 2008 to show my family how financial institutions were fueling his campaign. Now don't get me wrong, he did have the largest number of small donations ever, but the majority of his funds came from wall street. No wonder he is standing by them through thick and thin. Auto industry must kiss the golden ring of Washington, while wall street, wing tips, private jets and all, saunter in and walk away with untold amounts of cash. I tried to warn people about Obama during the primary, but the new and glossy worked again, you know, like the newest I Phone. God help us!Once again we chose the lesser of two evils and are getting burned again. When will the American people ever learn. The candidate the media warns us against is probably the candidate we ought to be voting for. I hope John Edwards can recover from the personal mistake he made and run again in 2012. But then again, as long as candidates have to meet some religious, moral character standard, probably not. Guess those requirements don't apply to the immorality of choosing the rich and wealthy over working class people. Just say Christ and Jesus a few times and you're in!
From one of the sources you cite:
KLEWTV: Obama says automakers need 'drastic changes'
Obama's soul as well. George Carlin was right. This country was bought and sold years ago. Nobody cares for the working man anymore. Obama is not the one anymore.
it's ALWAYS been like this.
The only difference between the two parties WAS THIS...the Democrats would throw a crumb down to working people.
That doesn't happen anymore.
Both parties are hooked on corporate money. They are whores trying to elbow each other aside so they can suck some CEO's dick.
L and P, that is a good bottom line. Something that sometimes can only be learned over time/election cycles.
Now the crumbs go to the rich.
“All those things Obama's saying to Detroit, a city of working people left devastated, about sacrifice and restructuring - why isn't he saying them to Wall Street, too?”
According to Professor Tom Ferguson, Obama's corporate campaign donations were heavily concentrated in finance. Says the people who caused the problems are the primary backers of Obama.
It's also the reason Obama is opting to gouge the American people to the tune of $600B in health care by taking single payer off the table.
The CEO of AIG was forced to resign when we bailed them out as well as those of Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac. I would like to see all the failing companies be allowed to fail and break up since there should not be any company that is too big to fail. But let's keep this in perspective. GM needs to fail. It's a terrible company. It sucks for the workers but that's the way it is. Citibank should also be forced apart and I'm betting it will. We're just at the beginning of this thing.
is in the process of being dismantled.
You are the witnesses to the final fire sale of the 30 year hollowing out of America.
It all started when Ralph Nader baited GM and the big boys fell for it.
Uhmmm...because he's a corporatist?
He can kiss goodbye labor support in 2012.
Right!
Just who would you recommend they for FOR, then?
That's the Dims' eternal advantage: they can require the votes of the working class, and then they can turn around with a perfectly clear consicence and FUK THE WORKERSS IN THE ASS because, hey, are they gonna vote GOPuke?
I don't understand why Chapter 11 isn't an option for GM. Under Chapter 11, the company continues operations, and the workers continue working. It permits the company to jettison unaffordable debt.
It's almost like we're hearing either Chapter 7 or government bailout. I think they ought to go Chapter 11. After that, and GM's costs are restructured, then I would support federal assistance to keep the people in the auto businesses employed if needed.
As far as retire benefit programs, likely they would be eliminated. But I can't see asking the people at large to subsidize deluxe retirement packages that they themselves aren't getting.
And needless to say, we need single payer health insurance to lower health costs that are borne by many employers, such as GM. But, unfortunately, we have a corporate oligarchy that is out of control. I hope the G20 takes that into account later this week, and recognize that in dealing with Obama, they're dealing with the front man for the financial industry that caused the problems.
they'll go Chapter 11, which would eliminate all union contracts, then the company would do the right thing by the workers!
And the powers of the freeee market will be proven AGAIN!!!!
The unions are being told now by Obama to make concessions. What's the difference if the have to negotiate a new contract after Chapter 11? This country is living in fantasy land. We're the victims of a massive white collar ripoff, orchestrated by this corporate oligarchy, and people aren't going to take a hit? We're just going to borrow and borrow for perpetuity to ease the pain? We had a Nasdaq bubble, then a housing bubble, and now a borrowing bubble. Anyone think this borrowing bubble isn't going to burst, well, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale.
I give this federal borrowing bubble 1-3 years. China is already making noise. Then, I think the inflation tax will kick in, and any borrowing will carry a hefty interest rate.
It would be interesting if each posting would start with the kind of car, if any, you drive.
oh...I'm sorry. That's not a car.
Hmmm...
Hummer! Oh...wait...that could be a President too
Hmmm...let me see....
but how do youy afford to feed all those mules in today's economy?
we collect all those individuals who are not productive members of our society and turn them into a productive asset for our society.
It's all very efficient.
but i don't see how it gets you Borax wagon across Death Valley.
I quit driving in the early 90's.
I relied entirely on mass transit when I lived in the city.
I moved to the forest in 2000, 16 miles from town, and have everything delivered by UPS, USPS, or hire a local with a car.
I just bought me a nice big 2009 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited - voted Consumer Reports worst vehicle of 2009! GO ME!
my first car was a Corvair. Both tops on Nader's list, or, if you prefer, the title role players in Unsafe at Any Speed.
Do not worry. In a few weeks you will own the derivatives on your interest free loan and own the car outright.
You could forgive yourself your own debt, right?
due to power outages from a freak Spring snowstorm that proves that Al Gore is a fraud.
global warming does not mean you are not going to get freak snowstorms. Gawd, are the right wing nuts this freaking stupid? Why yes they are! Pick up a book and read every now and again.
bith of which have bee EXCELLENT vehicles.
The ZX-2 gets 40+ MPG at 75 MPH.
The F-250 gets around 23 hiway, 17 city...
cannot complain...
DODGE CARAVAN 2001 114,000 miles. Only one car. This is the record for years but I wanted to beat the previous record for miles 155,000.
This may be a mistake as I seem to be seeing a lot of new cars on the road which are obviously being bought recently at fire side sales.
Chapter 11 for GM as it would force them to restructure.My 17 year old son thinks that the way to go. Too many groups within the GM corporate culture ( which includes the unions ) are trying to protect their little kingdoms. The auto industry is way over capacity and has to cut back approx. 33 % so someone has to bite the bullet.
One of the fundamental differences between the attempts to bail out the financial services giants and the Auto companies is that the financial services companies, for the most part, are making money on day to day operations. GM was not even before the economy tanked.
For all the excessive risks that they took, they are still profitable. Given enough time, they could grow their way out of the current mess. By that time though, the economy would be in a shambles around them.
The American auto makers had been losing money on almost every car they made for a number of years now. Giving them more money isn't going to turn them into profitable companies. Everybody who has a stake in their survival needs to make the sacrifices necessary to make these companies profitable.
Auto workers in Japan don't get free health care, they get government funded health care. Health Care that is paid for by their taxes. Even with almost 50million uninsured Americans, we pay far more per person for health care than the Japenese. Thats one of the biggest problems. Not who pays for health care, but how much it costs.
Because the American companies have contracted soo much over the past 10 - 15 years, they are having to support a large population of retirees on progressively smaller car sales.
They also need to get their major bond holders to right down a significant fraction of that debt (30% or more).
They need the manufacturing flexibility that comes with relaxed work rules.
And they need to correct the impression that American made cars are poorly made. That used to be true but both GM and Ford have largely addressed the quality issues and now, for the most part, produce quality to compete with the rest of the world. Chrysler is not there yet. But there is still a perception that American's can seem to build high quality cars. Taht perception has to change before the car companies can thrive again.
All of those are pretty straight forward things to fix.
Finding a way to get retiree costs, at least retiree health care costs, off their backs, is one of the keys to the long term survival of these companies.
And nobody seems to know how to do that.
Telling retirees that the rules of their retirement are going to change isn't fair. But if the companies go under, they will suffer as much or more. I don't know how many of the workers covered by GM or Chrysler's pension plans are currently getting more than the maximum they would be paid if the government had to take over their pension plans. I suspect that most do.
Its not a white vs blue thing.
Its the difference between people who already have a basically sound and profitable business model who took soem incredibly bad risks and lost and between two companies that don't currently have a viable business plan. That wouldn't make a profit even if American's bought 14 million cars next year.
Not white vs blue
“Finding a way to get retiree costs, at least retiree health care costs, off their backs, is one of the keys to the long term survival of these companies. And nobody seems to know how to do that.”
We know exactly how to do that, which is to copy what the Japanese and European countries are doing and adapt a single payer health system.
What we don't seem to be able to get a handle on is how to eliminate the corrupting influence of corporate campaign bribes so that the government stops being a government of the corporation and starts being a government of the people.
There was a fascinating study on Frontline last year about how 5 different capitalist countries achieved universal health care. Not everybody has a single payer system and the trade offs are neither simple or easy.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sicka...
That being said, one common thread in these 5 countries is that the health insurance companies in these countries are all non-profit.
Taking the profit motive out of the administration of what ever health care delivery system you have seems to be a consistent part of the solution.
So if health insurance agencies were set up to be non-profits, the result would be similar to single payer government health care?
They'd have to change more than that, of course, since right now, health insurance companies decide what treatments, surgeries, and drugs will be covered under their plans, etc.
But I doubt that the Obama administration is interested in restructuring private health care insurance companies and how they operate.
out of the equation.
But that's because they own his satchel-ass, bag and baggage...
Making money on a day to day basis. Hmmmm…
Bear Stearns leveraged 35 to 1, collapsed with distress sale to JPMorgan Chase in March '08. Federal Reserve $30 billion loan to JPMorgan to do the deal. Without proper authority according to some.
Merrill Lynch leveraged 40 to 1, collapsed with distress sale to BoA. Illegal section 382 pledge by Paulson for $140 billion tax writeoff windfall Sept '08. BoA $45 billion in bailout plus $108 billion bad debt backstop.
Lehman Brothers leveraged 35 to 1, bankrupt Sept '08.
Washington Mutual bankrupt.
Citigroup, heavy CDS exposure, $45 billion in bailout plus $301 billion bad debt backstop.
$10.5 trillion plus in bailout funds committed.
Given enough time and enough trillions in taxpayers money and the Banksters will be fine.
What planet do you live on?
There is a difference between investment gains or losses and operating business losses.
Its like the difference between your salary and the profits or losses you make on your stocks or mutual funds.
They made bad investments and are taking huges losses, some of which the US taxpayer is covering to keep these idiots afloat.
But, for the most part, the regular business operations of these institutions, especially the banks, were profitable
There is no question they were over leveraged. Taht is something that Geithner is attempting to address through regulation and resolution authority.
But the point remains, they made bad investments which swamped their otherwise profitable businesses
GM loses money on every car it is building right now.
We have committed over $10 trillion to the Banksters. They have off balance sheet accounting, it is verboten by FASB but they do it anyway.
The main insurance units of AIG were profitable but the Financial Services Unit wrote $440 billion in Credit Default Swaps, worth more than four times the book value of the entire company.
So far we have made good $180 billion of those. Way more than the company is worth.
To try to claim that they are profitable is like saying the Titanic was seaworthy except the hole in bow.
As for Geithner's talk of new regulation, it is smoke and mirrors as far as I am concerned.
-- Ronald Reagan 40th president of US (1911 - 2004)
Haven't heard ANYONE from the business sector OR the banks repeating that quote recently.
Wonder why?
Funny how "the government" in that quote doesn't include the military - vastly expanded by Reagan and the 2 Bushes.
Funny how that quote came to be even more "terrifying" by the time Katrina hit, because 25 years of Reagan-inspired privatization, graft and incompetence had turned FEMA into a nest of idiots and cronies.
Funny how the practice of conservative policies virtually guarantees that government can't do its job.
Funny how the government entitlement programs continued to grow under Reagan's followers, even as they cut taxes - making it impossible to pay for government, and adding to the colossal debt of future generations.
Hey, to them it's only applicable if the government wants to regulate them. Otherwise? Bailouts? No problem.
Decades after the Japanese were building fuel efficient cars that seemed to run forever Detroit was still building rust bucket gas hog clunkers with built in functional obsolescent designed to keep you a slave to their dealerships. It's unfortunate for all those workers the Big 3 didn't adapt but how much more money do we need to give them for them to throw down the toilet on a bad business model? Maybe Exxon/Mobil can bail em out since they made a shit load of money of those gas hogs.
Maybe Exxon/Mobile can bail em out since they made a shit load of money of those gas hogs.
Gee...isn't that a novel idea.
I guess "synergy" is a bad word when a company has to SPEND it's money.
--It is time for a reboot..
Honestly... The entire system has systemic problems in every way shape and form.
We should hold national forums of local area arenas and so forth... allow people to gather at convention areas... listen to other peoples ideas.. then take votes on them.
Then use that as a guide lines as to where and how we should rebuild..
Shut down GM.. Start building high speed rail... Start building Solar Panels (for the ROOF of EVERY SINGLE BUILDING)-- Start building Windmills, and River Turbines..
We need to have a 2 year pause.. a House cleaning if you will..
And when we are done we need to have a brand new house to go with our brand new mindset.
I wouldn't want GM shut down at a time that we're spending money on "shovel ready" projects. I think you risk throwing 2 million taxpayers out of work. Instead, GM needs to copy what their competitors are doing, from a cost structure viewpoint.
And, the country needs to have a health care system that is cost competitive with Japan's. Again, we need to copy that too.
I heard one economist say that less than a full employment economy is a real drag on deficits. My sense is that GM needs to restructure, not shut down.
Let's restructure!! How much should we give them? And we need to give them bonuses too! We can't let the best and the brightest leave! They are the saviors!
Ohhh...and if we'd only lowered their taxes!!
Gawwd...why oh WHY does Washington hate industry!!!!
No restructuring means, among other things, bailing out shareholders. I think the focus should be on the workers, not bailing out the bondholders, or shareholders.
In the end, however, I think that whatever it takes, those workers should remain employed. The best guarantee is self-sufficiency, not reliance on the government. If GM doesn't shed its debt, they're going to be right back at the government trough.
So, the question is, would Chapter 11, and the discharge of debt make GM stronger going forward, or weaker. I think stronger, and consequently keep more people employed.
You risk retraining 2 million tax payers to make products that we actually need.
GM should be shut down..
IF you want to reopen it with new management that are not idiotic greedy drunks.. then fine..
It should be called General Manufacturing..
It makes me laugh how resistant people are to shutting down that stupid company..
They have been doing it to themselves for years.. they have been screwing over their workers.. their customers.. their planet for years..
They are over.
Their factories are icons to wasted potential..
2 million unemployed taxpayers in less than a couple of months?
It will simply snowball a bad situation into a really really really bad situation.
we might get actual reform if we have people in the streets.
with gas prices dropping...they had so many good ideas in the pipeline..
like an Abrams Tank minivan knockoff.
new crossover models with 28 inch tires.
sideways opening moon roofs! such innovation!
Exactly..
Perhaps if they built those .. they could get the government to give out another $10,000.00 in tax credit to the consumers that purchase them..
That would fix everythin!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE0AmdwYWu8
Here is another side of John Rich:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVvz04aPDGA
"Populism" can be very good or it can be very DANGEROUS if misdirected. John Rich is a dyed-in-the-wool right-winger who fervently supports the very kind of people who conned him and the rest of our country into this situation in the first place. True as the song may be, Rich is only getting richer by selling the despair of the working class, all while tragically pointing them in precisely the WRONG direction.
John is a a**hole if there ever was one wouldn't buy anything he's got to sell!!!!!!!
What? Did you need the Google_Meister to fill you in on that one? Being the conspiracy theorist that I am, science fiction or not, there has to be something in the TV airwaves, water, or something to make people 'F**' news idiots / stepford people. People say to me now, 'omg, you were right about this..about that..' I still recall vividly the chinese coworker; 'You have propaganda in this country' Big smile on her face..
Liberal and Proud might consider a name change...
Quasi-Liberal and Misinformed maybe?
this from a part time poster.
Thanks for the advice. I'll give it all the consideration it merits.
True and you forgot obnoxious.
those fuckers fought tooth and nail against producing electric and hybrid cars
i feel for the workers...but all the managers should be fired
I'd buy that for a dollar!
I recall reading articles in Popular Mechanics 20 and 30 years ago claiming that automakers were using every trick in the book to prevent independents from developing alternate powered vehicles. Same was true of the oil companies for those experimenting with developing alternate fuels. Nobody had enough money to fight them in court.
Management was told by big oil keep building the big gas guzzlers and they believed them can make more profit with the bigger cars. Well looks like big oil and the auto industry got a big surprise.
Our hero BUSSSH won the war but lost the oil, but in reality we are the losers!!
Fire the management, and start retooling the factories to make more efficient, people mover sedans. Actually, they have already starting making huge leaps and bounds over the last couple of years, catching up with Japan's full efficiency.
We need to switch over to more public transportation. We need to at the very least double our commuter train capacity. People are already buying more efficient, car-pooling vehicles, and Detroit is getting there. I don't see what's wrong with giving them another bridge loan.
Wall Street on the other hand, well, those idiots are going to have to die off already. Get it through your heads! The wealth you've accumulated over the years WAS FAKE! Erase this fake wealth from the system, and tax the shit out of these assholes so that we can do these public works projects without increasing the nation's debt.
Anyone remember the EV1? GM killed it, and now GM is getting killed, or broken into parts I should say. 'bout time. Investors would be wise to stock up on F right about now.
AIG should have already been put in receivership, I think this is also a matter of time.
Way to early to be criticizing Obama as to what's transpired so far.
I agree completely, this is crap. I am not a fan of unions and am not in one. I don't have a pension, or anyone paying for my health care but me. I am a working, self employed person who makes less then just about all union employees in this country especially civil service and state employees, who's benefits and wages are killing many states budgets. HOWEVER……… I make way damn less than the rich fat cats we are bailing out in these banks and firms on Wall Street! As a matter of fact I make so much less than they do if they gave me half of a quarter of one of their year's earnings I could get by nicely for the rest of my life! And I am not that old!!!!
What is going on here? I know the auto industry has problems but why are we hesitating to give them money when we have already sold our souls to Wall Street and Bank of America? I'm an Independent, I voted for Obama but I am slowly losing my patience with him and his administration and frankly all of Congress.
I have snail mailed my Congressmen and emailed them and called them about this. I honestly do not think they care one damn bit. So much for representation and the Republic!
Media new is the cause of this. NO I am not a conspiracy freak. Just take some time to sit back and think on it. I'll give you a hint, this started about ten years ago in unrest. They run this country's interests and feed the masses endless streams of bullshit that we soak in and start to think it is important.
I am sharpening my pitchfork tonight! I am mad as hell and not going to take it anymore.
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