Obama Tells World's Muslims: 'This Cycle of Suspicion and Discord Must End'
I'm really heartened by the speech Obama just gave in Cairo. (It's encouraging that Obama consulted with American religious leaders as the speech was being formulated.) Now, let's see whether Israel responds in a positive vein.
CAIRO, June 4 --President Obama asked Thursday for a "new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world" in a speech that urged Islamic nations to embrace democracy, women's rights, religious tolerance and the right of Israel to co-exist with an independent Palestinian state.
In an address designed to change perceptions of the United States in the Arab Middle East and beyond, Obama reviewed the troubled historical legacy between Islam and the rest of the world, from colonialism through the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and the uncertainty surrounding cultural and economic globalization.
"So long as our relationship is defined by our differences, we will empower those who sow hatred rather than peace, and who promote conflict rather than the cooperation that can help all of our people achieve justice and prosperity," Obama told an audience of hundreds gathered in a domed hall at Cairo University. "This cycle of suspicion and discord must end."
Yeah, that and the invasions and detentions! But I digress.
Obama's speech, carried live by many networks around the world, marks his latest outreach to Islam since taking office on a pledge to reach out more directly to U.S. rivals. Drawing at times on his father's Islamic heritage and his own childhood in Indonesia, the third most-populous Muslim nation, Obama condemned religious intolerance and bigotry across nations, and warned that "a small but potent minority of Muslims" have used those tensions to promote religious violence.
The speech at times had the feel of a history lesson as Obama listed the accomplishments of Muslims in America and the contributions Islamic culture has contributed to civilization over the centuries. He also sought to share the blame for the ruptured relationship, even as he sharply criticized Islamist extremism and called the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, "not opinions to be debated" but "facts to be dealt with."
"I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear," he said. "But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America . Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire."
Obama used far stronger and more specific language than his previous remarks on some of the most contested issues in the Muslim world, including the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Although he urged Arab nations to do more to achieve peace with Israel, Obama also spoke passionately about what he called the Palestinian right to a state.
"America's strong bonds with Israel are well known. This bond is unbreakable," Obama said. It is based upon cultural and historical ties, and the recognition that the aspiration for a Jewish homeland is rooted in a tragic history that cannot be denied."
Citing the destruction of six million Jews in the Nazi Holocaust, Obama said that "threatening Israeli with destruction, or repeating vile stereotypes about Jews, is deeply wrong."
At the same time, he said, "it is also undeniable that the Palestinian people -- Muslims and Christians -- have suffered in pursuit of a homeland . . . They endure the daily humiliations -- large and small -- that come with occupation. So let there be no doubt: the situation for the Palestinian people is intolerable. America will not turn our backs on the legitimate Palestinian aspiration for dignity, opportunity, and a state of their own."
The audience, which had stayed silent while Obama described the U.S.-Israel relationship, anti-Semitism and the legacy of the Holocaust, broke into warm applause.
Where Israel gets all the arable land and the water, and the Palestinians are crowded into walled ghettos? This is what Israel has been pursuing all along.
I would only support it if they were to divide the country right across the middle, and directly through the Dome of the Rock. Or better yet, make the D of the R a neutral space under NEITHER sides control.
Otherwise, it's just more of the same.
Israel needs to grow up and stop acting like the Nazis did.
And, before you start jumping on me as an anti-Semite, I'm mostly Jewish. But I do not support Israel.
I completely agree with you, and since our President has eyes to see and ears to hear, he knows that Israel is completely culpable in their criminal behavior towards the Palestinians. However, he has to tread carefully with his rhetoric. Make no mistake about it, though, he carries a big stick.
As for the speech, I thought it was glorious. What a breath of fresh air. I am so happy today.
A great deal of the farmland in Israel is due to their world-famous irrigation techniques, which are currently being exported to places like China and Africa. (Google "israel irrigation" for more information)
Having settlers expand colonies is bullshit, especially when Israel is perfectly cognizant of the implications for Palestinian negotiations. That being said, if Israel was able to irrigate previously unfarmable land to allow it to be farmed, how are they obligated to specifically split those areas?
The Likud party is a bunch of serious crazies, and I hope that someone more moderate gets into the peace process over there, but if you would remember Godwin's Law, there's no reason to bring the Nazis into the argument. Systematic destruction of the Palestinians hasn't been, nor will be, the purpose of the Israeli government. Geez. If I got money every time I heard someone compare *any* atrocities of any kind to the Nazis....
I hope there's also the understanding that neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians are *ever* going to give the entire story or honest news, much in the way the Democrats and Republicans in the USA frame debates to specifically benefit their point of view. The solution is somewhere between "divide everything in two, just like good ol' Solomon would have done" and "winner takes all."
Remember that Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have religious artifacts in Jerusalem. Probably would be better off spinning it into its own state or something. No one is going to agree on *anything* in Jerusalem until everyone else is dead. That being said, I think Jerusalem was originally divided up in the initial Israel/Palestine two-state arrangement, and neither side was happy about it.
"We need breathing room!" - Hitler, 1938
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
sorry, doesnt really work that way
you are, or you arent
thats like saying one is mostly dead
so I suppose you're either all anti-semite or all pro-semite - no in between there either?
however, as one being jewish is as a result of either being born of a jewish mother or a full conversion...there is no such thing as being half or mostly jewish
your mother was either jewish, or she wasnt
and ya...you either hate jews or you dont
SNORE. Joe, I'm so tired of your comments in these threads. You see it all as black and white. I feel sorry for you.
"and ya...you either hate jews or you dont"
And this is just plain puerile and insulting.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
and it isnt purile or insulting
the reason you take it that way is a guilt reflex
so i feel sorry for you
Typical.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Preceding [All] labels... individuality supersedes!
PS. → → → "Blind faith turns you blind"
Study the symptoms not the virus...
... believe it or not, some people marry people of other ethnic or racial groups. And these people love each other very much, despite their obvious differences. In fact sometimes, when a man loves a his wife very much... they get together, and that is how mixed babies are born.
Now, some times those mixed babies, grow up and they fall in love with another person that may be different from them. In some cases, a mixed man... falls in love with another mixed woman... and then they also love each other very much. And that is how super mixed babies are made!
I figure now it was a good time to have "the talk" I hope I did not step in any parent's toes.
Next week we'll discuss math and percentages ;-)
missed "the talk". Me-raised Catholic, but obviously Jewish by birth, yet practising athiest--find it all amusing...
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
Are even now, flocking en masse to find out what Republicans think about it. Oh boy! More unadulterated and unchallenged hate stenography.
Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine
"Talk to Muslims? You have to bomb them and show them that America is tough. Yeah! USA! USA!"
Goldberg(s), Will, Rove, Robertson, Gingrich, Rushbo, Palin, McLame, et al will all push for more bombs, less talk. And Gergen, Freidman, Broder, Hiatt, Gregory et al will offer them platforms and echo chambers.
Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine
they will rant about how President is selling out America to the A-Rabs.
Of course, they will overlook the fact that on every trip to Saudi Arabia, GW Bush did everything but kneel down and suck off the Saudi King, on camera, at the steps of Air Force One.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
From the WhiteHouse Channel on YouTube:
President Obama Speaks to the Muslim World from Cairo, Egypt
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
I can't believe this speech OMG it is so good!!!
Did you catch the shot at Congeress? Last week 392 Congressmen signed a letter encouraging Obama to tone down his talk on Israel and make it more "Private".
From the speech....
"America will align our policies with those who pursue peace, and say in public what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and Arabs."
Pwned douchebag Congress for their AIPAC fellatio!!!
From Politico....
The pro-Israel lobby AIPAC last week got the signatures of 329 members of Congress, including key figures in both parties, on a letter calling on the administration to work “closely and privately” with Israel — in contrast to the current public pressure.
x
I know it's far below AIPAC's 329, but it's not insignificant. Interestingly, a main difference between the letters is AIPAC's desire to have everything as hush-hush as possible while J Street seemingly has no problem with public scrutiny and pressure.
Daylight is a great disinfectant.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I heard him say:
"America will align our policies with those who pursue peace, and say in public what we say in private to Israelis and Palestinians and Arabs."
.. but I didn't realize it was a direct swipe at those sneaky wimps in Congress.
It IS obviously a departure from the Bush years when Bush would make grand pronouncements in public and sneaky backroom deals with the Israelis.
Did you ALSO notice he called out the Egyptian government: "A governement that despite winning elections by large majorities still does not respect the rights of its peoples" or smthg like that.
AND he called out the French who, in "the name of Liberalism" have outlawed the wearing of the habib by Muslim women in the public schools.
Obama got right down into the real problems. AND quoted from all three Abrahamic religious scriptures. WooHoo!!
Maybe if the followers of these three religions will make a better effort to live out the aspirations of their founders .. just maybe .. we CAN have Peace on Earth!
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
there is no doubt, obama is a master orator. i think the title of 'the great communicator' needs to be handed off to pres Obama.
now.. when it comes to actual implementation of his rhetoric... well, that is a bit more problematic, but this thread is about his speech.
(note: i only read a partial transcript)
...thing you were. The rhetoric is great but it is only meaningful if followed up with action:
1. Get out of Iraq
2. Take action with Gitmo Detainees
3. Release the Abu Ghraib photos
4. Find a different solution in Afghanistan
If we're still in Iraq in 10 years, as has been stated by current military leadership, this speech will have had no meaning whatsoever.
You got to read it all!! Huffpo has it!!
it is usually far easier than walking the walk.
I can't say I blame Obama for him doing just that, not that I am surprised anymore either. Disappointed yes, surprised not...
It is just part of the long honored American tradition of saying one thing and doing the other. We like to have it both ways. Maybe that is what made this country great. We are the worlds largest victimizer, but I dare finding other nation that plays the victim role as well as we do. There is a reason why the Oscars are given in the US of A baby!
Heck, bomb making and Hollywood are literally the last industries left in which we have a commanding world lead. If that doesn't say it all, I don't know what else would do it.
exactly, and the political establishment (not to mention the multinationals) are desperate to keep as many americans in the dark as possible about what is being down in our name.
leading to such wonders as:
-9/11 happened b/c "they hate us for our freedoms"
-the 1979 islamic revolution in iran is the starting point for the relations btwn iran america
-meh, the list is endless, really
"Words have meaning" Rush Limpball
But,We shall see
that when Bush Jr. had the opportunity--the invitation, in fact--to tour holy sites in many parts of the world, he simply declined, disinterested.
I guess the mini-fridges were better in his hotel room. Maybe he had a Playstation.
If the Muslim reaction his speech on tolerance is anything like the anti-choice people reaction to his speech on abortion, we're all screwed.
We can only wish.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
frrom the liberul media than from the middle east media.
It's a no-win situation here with the conservaturds. If the speech doesn't work Obama's a failure, and if the speech does work he's part of a Muslim conspiracy to overthrow us.
Meanwhile no one is paying attention the Talibaptists who are actually trying too.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
there plenty of negative comments here.
There's a lot of knee-jerk anti-religionists here
Not that portion of the anatomy that's my preference.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
by some religion apologists ;-)
In my experience, most atheist are highly educated. And they reached their views via education and reason. Hardly something that could be attributed to reflex or instinct-like behavior.
Esp. when we consider that the norm is to be religious and grow up in a religious environment from day 1. It takes a lot of effort to go against such momentum. Ergo, it is fantastically projective to accuse atheist or people who do not like religion of being driven by primal impulse.
But if you go for the epistemological tabula rasa concept, than despite some theoretical hardwiring in the hippocampus supposedly that drives a religious impulse, than one is born experientially cognitive.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...who were Marines and not college grads, please, speak english would ya?
Actually, I was gonna slip in a comma, and a seperate and more succinct comment about the same time you made your entry, thus preventing mine.
Missouri has the motto: The Show Me State.
But I never heard of Missouri being considered the height of erudition
Or is that Missoura?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...that would have made all the difference in the world!
It's Missoura if you live in the Western half of the state.
The Koreans can't pronounce it properly, so they call it "Misery", whcih always makes me chuckle. One of the teachers at my school is going to "Misery" this summer for teacher training, in English.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
However, equating the cognitive capabilities and processes of a new born (or child for that matter) with a fully grown human... it is a bit of a stretch.
In other words, most people are religious because they are indoctrinated (usually from a very early age). Whereas, a lot of people questioning religion are doing so after a long (and some times arduous) process, usually involving reason and knowledge. So to me, it is very very very intellectually disingenuous for the religious crowd to blame atheists or agnostics of "knee-jerk" behavior, you know that about "people in glass houses not being a good idea for them to throw stones around" and all that.
So you would fault the indoctrinated and not the indoctrinator?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Why do you think the religious consider faith such a test:
Faith is believing what you know ain't so.
Mark Twain
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
but I am not separating, in this case, the indoctrinated from the indoctrinators from my criticism. IMHO, it takes two to tango.
I was just pointing out that it was very projective to blame non-religious people of "knee-jerk" reactions. Since becoming an atheist usually involves far stronger exercising of logic and reason... than the other way around.
I just refuse to buy into the whole narrative that there are roving bands of dangerous atheist with nothing better to do than terrorizing the poor religious "minority" which is "oh, so oppressed" in this country. Or at least that is what whole "knee jerk" made an issue for me.
Does that make sense?
Well think of it this way, your picking up your thread of argument from my set up for a dirty joke.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
It felt weird, because I never took you for the religious type. You are too educated and smart, I think ;-)
I don't know what the hell (if I may use a religious term)I am. But I don't like simplistic assumptions of any kind.
I guess I like to play Devil's Advocate.
Why just the other day, on Youtube, I was arguing on this one religious thread that the glossolalia of the Pentecost was not speaking in tongues, but listening. And I loooove picking at their beliefs with compartive theology.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
A thought did occurr to me. I know religious impulses are symptomatic of the schitzophrenic, but what other forms of mental and developmental problems is it symptomatical?
I recall the case of Phineas Gage. His brain was injured, but he lost all sense of restraint, and went from being a proper sort of his period (church goer, well behaved) to one given to screaming obscenities like a Tourette patient.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
at a time had published a paper (with some medical colleagues) about a certain type of brain lesion.
Basically people who got injured in that area, either became extremely religious or totally atheist... right after the accident. In many cases reversing their original state, i.e. religious people became atheist, and atheists became religious.
So there may well be some evolutionary relationship with the development of religion. Maybe religion allowed humans to achieve a very early sense of purpose, and thus allowed a shortcut to allow the human brain to give a sense of the individual having a certain place in the world. Thus freeing the brain to pursue other aspects of cognition that would be more beneficial to comply with evolution... at that specific time and place.
After all, religion is an almost ideal method for social and personal control. So it could be argued that even with its destructive nature, religion has an overall positive effect due to the two aspects I described before.
There is also the risk, that said positive side effect may place our species in a local maxima, and thus hindering the overall evolutionary process. I.e. it may have been a catalyst for evolution/survival at some point, but then it became a hindering once the "process that generated religion" was facing possible extinction once its work was "done"
I've read a paper where a professor was arguing that religion aided evolution, by causing us to perform irrational acts that ended up aiding us. He argued that a rational fighter would fight until the threat is gone, or until the fight turned against them upon which they would run (fight/flight) response. The religious fighter would irrationally fight on for a heavenly award, or the belief they were magically protected, and often won the day through a combination of skill, strategy and luck.
J J Bachofen suggested there was an evolution of religion/ethics and morals as we establish principles (gods) far above us, attempt to emulate them, and we we get too successful at emulating them, start fearing that outcome, and pushing that ideal further out, and then work toward that point.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
However, I didn't fully understand the last 4 lines in your post.
Do humans distance themselves from the original god-like aspects they wanted to attain at the beginning once they get close enough, and then create a new god-like goal and refocus on that? Or do they completely reject god once they match the supposedly divine initial capabilities?
I meant to say when we, otherwise it sounds like a first-grade potty humor.
Bachofen suggested they refocus on new god-like goals.
The problem was with his theory is that he seemed (not clear) to consider Christianitiy the most advanced form of religion, although Muslim, Bahai and my favorite Rastafarian came later.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Thanks.
If you're interested in the title of the book it's Myth, Religion and Mother Rights (I think he co-wrote it).
Religion is like the Norse God Loki, who as a trickster-god of the type known the world over, plays pranks, sometimes malicious ones, to initiate action, to help his friends achieve fame and fortune, but can also bring ruin and destruction.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I am busy with RL atm (kids are home from school) but here's a great link to a lecture about the origins of religion...basically religion uses what makes us human...not that religion is part of what makes us human.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg
Speaking in tongues...that one drives me crazy.
As someone raised Catholic who read the Bible intensely at 15 before burning out, waking up and walking away from all things religious, I hear people who think they are speaking in tongues shouting "shambalala" and such nonsense. If I interpret it correctly, the Apostles spoke in tongues, mean all who heard them understood their words, regardless of what language the LISTENER spoke. It wasn't some childish gibberish that no one understands.
And yet...this concept of divinely inspired gibberish is a mainstay of truly holy fundamentalists in this country.
According to the Rituale Romanum glossolalia is one of the evidences for demonic possession.
But even then it had to be a recognizable language that the subject never before had shown any knowledge.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.themagickalreview.org/enochian/mss/
More recently the influence of ritual possession common to the Voudun, Colombe and others have been channeled in smaller Christian churches like the "Holy-Rollers," to the Pentacostal and the Charismatics and now even the most mainstream.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Thu, 06/04/2009 - 11:48 — Tyler Durden
As Stretch Dude said to Clobber Girl, "I will use my powers...to ANNOY people!"
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Actually it would be closer to an Argumentum ad Ignorantiam, however, I always like the Lockian je ne sais quoi?
Yours would be an appeal to novelty.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I've always wondered how long religion would retain it's stranglehold on our planet if it weren't for indoctrination of our youth, literally from birth.
If, for example religion wasn't allowed to make it's case until after a person graduates from High School, I wonder how many would actually choose to subcribe to it (any religion)?
It would be at best a tertiary compensation.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
or speech giving qualities. He is a master orator, period. That however, is only part of what makes a good statesman.
That being said, some of us are a bit disappointed with the fact that his great rhetoric has been meet, usually, with little to not action from his part.
I think that is a valid criticism. Obama is not the captain of our debate team, he is our president. If anything, it is very painful to be disappointed. Alas... c'est la vie.
The silver lining in all this is that Obama is such a welcome change from the previous monkey boy... esp. due to Bush's lifelong battle with the English language. In that respect, I am glad he is representing this country. No doubt about it.
Why am I seeing Scientology ads here???? I find it very offensive!
[Read our advertising FAQ-Sitemonitor]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=klu6gK_xEQ4&fe...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I sat and listened to every word of his speech this morning as he gave it. In my opinion it was a speech everyone in the world should hear. It was an adult speaking to other adults and saying things that have long needed to be said. I gotta tell ya, I was damned proud to hear that man introduced as the President of my country.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Not just for the "Muslim World" .. for the whole world.
Obama challenged EVERY person to reach for the highest aspirations of Islam, Judaism, Christianity, AND the universal aspirations of people everywhere.
For a moment I thought I was back in the Unitarian Church where I grew up, listening to a non-denominationsl sermon on how all the religious and non-religious people of the world could make ALL our lives better.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
"For a moment I thought I was back in the Unitarian Church where I grew up, listening to a non-denominationsl sermon on how all the religious and non-religious people of the world could make ALL our lives better."
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Lots of bullshit at the end regarding faith and religion and such.
"faith and religion and such" are what he was addressing. They are in some ways standing in the way of any sort of peace. He was appealing to each faith to stop fighting one another and work together for the betterment of all. How could he speak to people in that part of the world without addressing their faiths?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I'd rather he leave out the religious nonsense and instead appeal to people's reason and empathy.
Appealing to religious sentiments is something that the 'bad guys' can do too. The problem is Faith. Because with Faith, anything can be justified.
Look, I don't want to offend you...really, I don't. I understand what you're saying about reason and empathy. But not everyone feels exactly that way. As was stated above in the thread, many people are "trained" from birth to believe whatever they believe. (And, believe it or not, others come to their views about religion later in life--whether that be faith, atheism, agnosticism, apathy, or just plain confusion.)
The reason Obama included all the "religious nonsense" is because he recognizes an intractable fact: not everyone thinks it's nonsense. It guides how they live daily, or at least how they believe the world *should* work.
You don't believe what they believe, and they don't believe what I believe, and on and on. Obama's speech--particularly the piece at the end--was both an acknowledgement of that fact and a chance to say, "Look, we may not all believe the same stuff, and we may hold our own views deeply, but that's no reason we can't find common ground and treat each other respectfully to solve the issues we face."
If we can't put at least that much on the table, there's no way we'll ever find peace with each other--in our own country, let alone across the globe. To that end, what he said WAS an appeal to reason and empathy.
My $0.02.
Peace.
Because putting aside religious differences is as easy as Obama just talking about it.
Compare that to talking about our shared humanity or some such. Things we ALL share...not just the religious. (Which Obama did too, a little, in this speech).
Bottom line is that religion is divisive no matter how lofty Obama's rhetoric is.
It sure can be divisive--if it's permitted to be. Similar to the abortion "debate," though, people hold their religious beliefs deeply, and most won't change them. To disregard that makes finding some kind of common meeting place almost impossible.
In many parts of the world, people's religions are at the heart of their culture. Not addressing the fact that their religion guides their way of looking at the world would be to ignore their humanity, in their eyes.
I understand what you are saying and I know I am not the clearist writer out there but...
If one can appeal to someone's faith to do good acts then this in turn justifies another person appealing to someone's faith to do evil acts. Once you open that door you also open up it to the Osama bin Laden's and Pat Robertson's of the world.
So IMO less talk about faith and religion and more talk about humanity and shared values, etc. (again whiuch Obama did in this speech too)
Make people think doing what we want is their idea.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
...with my siblings and me. Maybe they should get a contracting gig with the US government?
I understand what you're saying. It can work both ways. My take: what Obama may have been trying to do today was what Lincoln called "appealing to the better angels of our nature."
If he openly acknowledges respect for a faith that plays a major part in the Middle East--a faith which many Americans fear, hate and fail to understand--he at least opens the door opposite to the one you're talking about.
I'm a HUGE believer in the separation of church and state. Huge. That ideal doesn't guide much of the world. Hell, take two people who say they believe it here in the U.S. and you'll get two different interpretations (sort of like you and I talking right now). This was Obama's opportunity to say to the Muslim world, "Look, there are misunderstandings between our cultures and our people. We can put those things aside." It was his opening to try to show people in the Middle East--and around the world--that the U.S. can do things differently than the demonization practiced by Bush's administration.
It's just me--take it for what that's worth--it may be worth little--but I don't believe he could have had a chance to impress his sincerity upon a religious culture without addressing their religion. In that respect, it was his attempt to derail the OBLs and Pat Robertsons of the world.
It's not "can be", it's must be" by it's very nature. You join or are raised under a set of beliefs that you hold the true path to god and heaven and whatever. Outsiders are wrong, misguided, infidels, damned, unsaved, evil - pick your word.
You've got different sects of Protestantism in the U.S. that are at odds.
It's like hearing W. tell Blair "Ya just gotta get Syria to tell Hezbollah to knock this shit off and that would solve it".
I thinking Obama's got some freaking nerve or a delusion he's operating under - like a system of beliefs based on faith.
According to the Christian Sourcebook there are 20,000-30,000 Christian denominations, with 275 new churches formed every year, and these are all predominately Protestant and a result of their Sola Scriptura/Sola Fide doctrine.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I respect what you're saying, but you and I aren't going to agree on this one. Not all religious people are that intolerant. Some are, to be sure. But not all.
"You've got different sects of Protestantism in the U.S. that are at odds."
Think BIG! :-)
Study the symptoms not the virus...
Some people take their religion seriously.
And they should be respected for that.
The "Golden Rule" with which Obama closed his speech is universal. It's not just the foundation of all the world's great religions, it is ALSO the foundation of Secular Humanist ethics.
Do unto others as you would have them so unto you.
How can you argue with that?
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
The golden rule pre-dates religion and possibly even humanity itself. Obama could have gone this route but he didn't. That is my objection. He took an otherwise universal aspect of the human condidtion and mixed it up with religious talk.
What is "religious talk" and how did it harm the act of communicating in this instance?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
there is no god
religion is divisive
appeal to people's humanity instead
less talk, more action
and reply [debaser71]. Your speaking my language... and I still don't understand. Though I've noticed you've now expanded the individual speech, too include "more action".
If ya get a chance... what action(s) would you suggest? I believe I'll most likely admire them, as I've done in the past, but realistically speaking... well, that's why I'm puzzled. :-/ In any case hope your weekend is enjoyable.
CHOW...
Amended: "Truth does not require faith"
Study the symptoms not the virus...
and after 8 years of bush's cowboy ways...this reaching out is important....
however, it seems that he was attempting to show a moral equivalency between the holocaust and what has occured to the palestinians over the past 60 years
the events are not morally equivalent
More Matterfactually... "Two wrongs (fill in the blank)" in hindsight.
If we were all perfect... what reason would we have left, to live for?
Study the symptoms not the virus...
OMG! Look!! A REAL President!!!
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o51HgQAhWUg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoNVOH9ygNM&fe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFhRIhucgvE&fe...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I would rather have a bra thrown at my president than a shoe.
...have the bra thrown at me, but that's just nit-picking.
Wait. You're not really Tom Jones, are you? I think I saw your show in Vegas.
I'd rather have a bra thrown at me with the woman still attached. A well filled bra, I might add.
Yeah yeah...I know...so sue me...I'm a guy!
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
can make some serious damage. I am just saying...
For me, one of my favorite pass times is playing the "let's try to unhook the bra in the dar with only one hand" game. No need to throw the bra, or the woman, around.
;-)
That being said, if you are a real pimp. You get panties (thongs too) thrown at you...
Throw a bra at me I'd dodge faster that Bush dodged that shoe but throw a jock strap at me and I'd catch it like a dog catches a frisbee!
I'm with sixandseven.....:)
He has no intention of crossing our cleint state, Israel.
And he's a serial liar about . . .other matters.
It's all PR, people. Don't believe a word of it.
What was that you just dropped into the punch bowl?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
You want wait till he's been in office a few years before you make that call?
That's right. Don't go by the 20 or 30 broken promises to the people on the left who got him elected. We need a few years to look back and digest. Like W. always said, he'll wait to be judged by history...which is after we're all dead.
Too bad you can't get W back.
He wants the guy he voted for.
Can you name the 20 or 30 promises Obama has broken? We have the right spreading enough lies and smears about Obama, we don't need it from the left.
While you are at it to be fair be sure to list the promises Obama has kept. you can start with the nominating Sotomayor to the Supreme Court instead of someone "in the mold of Scalia or Thomas" like McCain would have done.
Maybe you would have been happier with McCain/Palin.
Yes, anyone who has an issue with Obama in these threads is really a trolling Republican. But let's give it a shot with a quick 6 that come to mind:
1. Renditions continue to foreign countries with torture history
2. War with Pakistan, sorry AfPak, is effectively here already
3. Hundreds of civilians dead in drone attacks
4. State Secrets defense still being used to throw out detainee lawsuits
5. Prolonged or Preventative Detention is now being discussed
6. Detainees in Bagram not legal persons, have no rights
With some time, I can continue typing out many more
7. Re-establishing Military Tribunals
It was an inspiring speech.
Its point was to inspire people to work together instead of blowing each other to pieces.
How can you fault that?
Got investments in the MIC you're trying to protect?
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Standing ovations and applause instead of stomping of burning American flags and chants of "Death to America"?
What a difference 8 years makes
What a difference four and a half months make. Can you imagine bush speaking there today? It wouldn't be pretty.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I remember when Clinton would speak at the UN he would get a standing ovation. When Bush spoke at the UN everyone sat with arms folded in pin drop silence with frowns on their faces. The whole world hates Republicans.
Not one shoe thrown.
Khruchev pounded his.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Ain't that the truth, I put my shoes back on too.
I'm increasingly struck by the similarity in language and tone of remarks from our domestic Obama haters and those of Osama bin Laden. Both seem to be about equally frightened by Obama.
I heard those very same words a few years ago. Circa 2003, they were all the rage...
Well, not exactly the same. No one knew who Obama was then, so Bush was used instead. But you know where I am going with this...
The more things change...
...but you can't talk your way out of a hotspot that you've acted yourself into. Wars of agression speak louder than words. Single-minded support for a government that is the epicenter of injustice in the Middle east doesn't help either. Behaving as an imperial colonial power that is intent upon exlpoiting the oil rich portion of the Muslim world doesn't help at all. There's going to need to be a major sea change in our policies towards the Middleeast and the Muslim world before the distrust and suspicion ends. And why should it be otherwise? When the real world walk matches the lofty talk, a lot of these problems will solve themselves.
unlike many here
why dont you emulate our president instead of spewing anti israel talking points?
Jewish lineage, I'll speak my conscience about Israel's behavior, and make no apologies about it.
guess that makes your opinion more important than mine
ancient it may be
but your fore fathers taught you nothing if you come up with things like "government that is the epicenter of injustice in the Middle east"
think you need to take a trip to all the wonderful arab countries and point out all the justice that is metted out there
name the one gay person that israel has put to death....you boob
Where did I claim my opinion is worth more than yours? I made mention of my ancsestry, because you implied that I am both an anti-Semite and an Israel hater. Simply because I made an offhand criticism? You had no rightor basis to make such an implied accusation And, FWIW, I'm not in a contest to out-Jew you or anybody else. If you will note, I did not speak of Jews, I was criticizing our own government's prior policies first and Israeli government policy second. There's a difference.
Neither, as I take it you are implying, am I defending the wrongs perpetrated by Arabs. If you think that everything Israel is doing is just, more power to you. If you think that Israel (independent of whether radical arab elements are willing to acknowledge Israels's right to exist, which is something they must universally do) can conduct what in reality amounts to slow but systematic ethnic cleansing and ghettoization of the occupied territories without there being negative repercussions, that's your business.
Here's a wisdom that my forefathers taught me: If you want peace, work for justice. Justice creates unity. Unity is the key that opens the door to peace. It is a beneficial cycle that empowers people of good will. Pervasive injustice creates lasting disunity. Lasting disunity creates and nourishes enduring hatreds. Eduring hatred spawns strife to which even the most beat down of peoples will eventually turn. Enduring injustice promises enduring strife in a vicious cycle that empowers only those of malign intent. I recognize the truth in this.
You said, "name the one gay person that israel has put to death....you boob". By what feat of logical gynmastics are you able to assume that by making note of wrongs committed by one party that I automatically support the wrongs committed by another? You assume too much. And name calling? Come on, Uncle Joe. I know you are smarter and better than that. Name calling, sneering sarcasm and taking liberal license with unjustified assumptions ill serves you.
The gist of what I said that seems to have provoked your attack was that a solution to the peace destroying problems in the Middle East cannot be a one way street. If the rightwing faction in Israel thinks that they are the only group in the Middle East that can never do any wrong, and so long as that group holds power while our own government unconditionally supports and protects they and their agenda, nothing of positive substance is going to happen. Words that bespeak high and worthy aspirations are somehow going to have to be translated into deeds.
In any event, I wish you well. Peace.
Four and a half months ago, there wasn't even "talk" in the direction of finding some sort of common ground, let along "walk."
You've gotta "walk" before you can run, as the saying goes. Today was a start. As Obama said on the teevee last night, don't expect the world from this speech. There's been a long history of animosity built up among different groups (the U.S., the Muslim world, Israel, among others) over time. One speech isn't going to change that.
It may help begin to ratchet down that animosity, though. We have to start somewhere. This was only that start.
...it's just that the walk has been a long time in coming.
"Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire."
What is that? A fucking joke?
America is now TEH definition of a self-interested empire, and pretty much has been since WWII.
I'm part of America.
And I'm certainly not part of "The American Empire."
Nor am I unaware of the evil that has been done in the name of the US.
Oh .. and if you're trying to date the origins of the American Empire, I'd go back to at least the Mexican-American War in the 1840's. The Civil War was about Empire. The "Indian Wars" were about empire. World War One was about Empire.
But America is NOT just about Empire.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
I'm part of America too. When I say America above, it's our government, administration, military, foreign policy, our effect on the rest of the world.
You and I are not an empire, but we live in one.
the rabid right will get over this amazing show of competence and diplomacy.
Assholes.
Obama hasn't done all I would have liked for him to do, but damn if he ain't STILL kickin ass and takin names.
Overall...I'm happy with this administration.
Still PLENTY of room for improvement though.
to be discussing on today's shows. You betcha...
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
they are gonna be frommin all over themselves!
than "discuss"...
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
vocabulary of made up words as myself.
ricky's close, but no cigar.
it's gonna take quite a while to empty the dirty diaper pail that was the Bush Administration policies.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
L&P
No doubt at all.
Obama frustrates me.
See, some of the time he stands up and says incredible, open, hope-inducing things like in this speech. The kind of things that, had GWB done them on, say, September 15, 2001, the world would be a very, VERY different place today. The kind of things that make a great president.
Then other times he pulls stupid, backward crap like some of the recent attempts to legalize and increase in government secrecy and corporate ass-kissing.
It was easier when we had a president with the anti-Midas touch, where you could be pretty sure anything that left his mouth was either a lie or openly destructive. Now I'm left cheering for some things and being enraged by others.
Of course, the open political discourse in this country doesn't allow for such subtleties--either you're "with him" or "against him"--you can't disagree strongly with one policy and agree strongly with another without being some sort of closet conservative or "flip flopper".
Unrelated: "...Israelis and Palestinians and Arabs." I'm admittedly not very good at ethnogeography and history, but isn't Iran mostly Persian, and aren't they the ones that Israel is getting the most worked up about?
What you said describes to a T my frustration as well. It is the hidden punches that just disorient me the f*ck out!
In some senses it is easier to deal with the GOP, I always know that they are going to say AND do the completely incorrect/inappropriate thing from the perspective of a decent human. That is a certainty, that although despicable, can be commended by its straightforwardness...
However with Obama, he sometimes... most times even, he says the right thing, at the right time, with the right tone. It is just a perfect communicator in that matter. He acts the part of the good guy, and you know what. I think we needed that, we needed someone in power that could quickly erase the memory of the asshole we had been suffering (by choice so maybe there is really no excuse for our hasting) for the past 2 previous terms. And then... he f*cking pulls some crap, and it just gets so infuriating.
Most of the die hards that attribute some of our criticism to mere "hate" ignore (or want to ignore)... attitudes like yours and mine. We are frustrated BECAUSE WE WANT HIM TO SUCCEED. Not the other way around. People who care get frustrated, people who don't give a f*ck are simply ambivalent (or pragmatist which is the new rage nowadays)
but still cautiously optimistic.
previous administration, it was the fact that they jaded me for so long... at such personal level, and they sort of turned me into a pessimist.
And I hate them for that.
And probably that is why I get so easily frustrated with the new administration. I really, really want to be proven wrong regarding my pessimism. And when I don't see signs to the contrary. I am all like "WTF? Noooo, not you guys...."
I really, really, really want to buy into the whole PR of "Change" and what not, I want to stop being such a pessimistic asshole.
I'm with Sixandseven................:)
I watched Obama LIVE last night, and his speech was amazing. G.W. Bush he certainly is NOT!!!!!
His speech was inspiring and it needed to be said, and he said it so very eloquently.
Now, can he work against the entrenched mob of goons that inhabit Washington. You all know exactly who I mean. CIA, MIC, GOP, etc, etc..
I fear Dick Cheney sees himself as the rightful dictator of the USA. He thinks he is absolutely correct with his heavy-handed approach, and has the CIA in his back pocket, not to mention his own personal assassination squad and torture chambers. I think he can't stand not being at the controls any more, so he is on TV every day trying to sway the nation. He is one scary person.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
I'll put i dont know, 50 grand? on there being no change in fact more Palestinian land will disappear under Obama.
to admit his or her country's mistakes.
It takes courage and intelligence to call on other world leaders to admit their mistakes.
Excellent speech. Bravo, Mr. President, bravo!
No, it takes courage and intelligence to admit your mistakes *and stop there*.
I know we started multiple wars, supported the scum of the earth if it meant getting us cheaper oil and pretty much screwed over everyone to create our little empire.
But it's not like *you* don't have ghosts in your closet, huh?
So what if I killed 1 million people, you killed one and that makes us equal, right?
You've got to be kidding me..
What picture do we cast when we feel the need to compare ourselves to scum?
Oohhh we made 'mistakes'. BS!
Dialing a wrong number is a mistake.
Creating secret torture camps around the world is *not* a mistake.
Please let's drop this carebear 'everyone is just a child who is learning' crap and start taking responsibility.
And this I still do not see from the US gov.
Enough big words and pretty promises, little action.
I'm proud of my President for his speech today.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
But I wish his governance would live up more often to the standard set by his speech making and composure. I've been disappointed on numerous fronts...mis-managed bailouts, retaining Bush courts, increase of deficits and mismanagement of funds, weakness on torture, and others.
"The cycle of suspicion and discord must end", but we're still gonna bomb you back to the stone age.
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