Poll: Most People Want Inquiry Into Bush Administration's Terror Tactics
Apparently not everyone is willing to "move on"...
WASHINGTON — Even as Americans struggle with two wars and an economy in tatters, a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll finds majorities in favor of investigating some of the thorniest unfinished business from the Bush administration: Whether its tactics in the "war on terror" broke the law.
Close to two-thirds of those surveyed said there should be investigations into allegations that the Bush team used torture to interrogate terrorism suspects and its program of wiretapping U.S. citizens without getting warrants. Almost four in 10 favor criminal investigations and about a quarter want investigations without criminal charges. One-third said they want nothing to be done.
Even more people want action on alleged attempts by the Bush team to use the Justice Department for political purposes. Four in 10 favored a criminal probe, three in 10 an independent panel, and 25% neither.
Get on the stick on this. The honeymoon is almost over.
"Secular humanism -- a fearless, realistic world view replete with doubt and scepticism that attempts to attain an unachievable state of equilibrium between and among the human qualities of reason, intuition, imagination, memory, ethics and common sense.
cheney basically admitted they authorized torture...
whats the hold up?
As soon as they do this any Gop willing to work with the democrats (what are there 3 or so?) will go back to party lines. Yes I know it's stupid and not a real reason to not serve justice, but that's politics.
I say forget the GOP they want to throw a tantrum because their party committed some of the worst offences in US history so be it. Bring them to justice Damn the feelings of the GOP.
But no Obama seems willing to become an accessorily to Bush and his cronies actives.
One could take a fucking poll on numerous single issues and get similar stats....get back in line.
Before the Inauguration I was ready to get an annulment before the marriage was even consumated!!!
Not that I'd want to get in bed with McCain either.
About the only candidate I could stomach a political "marriage and honeymoon" with would be Dennis Kucinich.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
about Mrs. Kucinich.
..or me three.
would be a dynamite First Lady. No offense to Michelle.
NOBODY 2012
Why should I trust a USA Today poll?
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
u dont think ppl want to investigate torture and the other war crimes of the bush years?
Number one - you answered a question with a question.
Number two - The USA Today polls are notoriously unreliable. Even if I am in error about that one needs to understand the wording of the questions to evaluate the poll.
Too many people think what is important is what the Corporate Media wants them to think is important, USA Today is in the front line of Corporate Media which has been doing their best to trivialize the matter. As I understand it.
In answer to your question, I don't know what people think. A meticulous and conscious poll might be interesting.
It wouldn't change the law or the treaties that we have entered into which stand as law.
War crimes must be investigated.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
ok cool...
but for the record i didnt answer a question i asked one.
so chiLLLL
BillO the Clown will think about this poll? He's been pretty vocal in speaking out against any inquiries. It will be "divisive" and tear the country apart, according to Billy the Bully.
The United States, at this point, is an oxy moron.
Just like the Civil war that was brewing back in 2000? Thank god bush won or this country would be split apart.
Seriosuly I can't believe they can keep up with the bs.
Most people want...
1. Universal healthcare...but according to leading democrats there is no political support for it. That means special interest isn't on board.
2. Bush in prison...wait for pigs to shit gold bricks.
3. The war(s) to end, now! That's why more troops are going to the "Stan"
4. Marijuana legal... but that would hurt organized crime and the money launderers.
5. Good paying jobs, but that would jeopadize the wealth machine of outsourcing and "fair trade". Hahahah!!
Bottom line, this is a Plutocracy, get rich or get screwed!!!
Those who want the Bush administration investigated and/or prosecuted need to be working on coalitions with well to do pigs since it will take affluent effluent to make it happen?
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
My point is, as long as "politicians for sale" and the mainstream
media set the agenda there will be no justice. But "American Idol"
trumps human rights activism.
Did you see where the South Carolina authorities are about to ARREST PHELPS???
That should go over like a lead balloon.
Boycott South Carolina if they arrest this guy for taking a bong rip.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
They are going to arrest the owner of the bong who was trying to sell it on Ebay. Selling a used bong is selling the resin which is against the law.
PHELPS just did not do the right thing. He should have started 2 wars,wire tap the American people then lied about on TV, should have told the news papers about a spy and sent people to places where they can get waterboarded. then the press would not care.
Dysfunctional governments are much like dysfunctional families. With a dysfunctional family, say in a case of incest-rape the family attempts to keep the violation secret. There is no healing until the violation is spoken of and the violation is acknowledged as a violation. In the case of what seems to be war crimes by our government there will be no healing in keeping the crimes "secret" and unacknowledged. Working to heal war crimes is moving forward.
Rove ignoring congressional supoenas (is illegal)! Using Federal DA's for political purpose (is illegal). Outing CIA agents (is illegal). Torture is illegal! Inciting war without reason (is illegal) Billions of American tax dollars Missing (could be something illegal). Missing White House emails (could be illegal)....No, moving on is to investigate. If we are a nation of law, then these laws need to be exercised. The country is "torn up" already. We let Nixon go and this is what we have: depression, 2 imcomplete wars. We have a Department of Justice for a reason.....If Flush, Slant-Hannity, Billo the Clown and others are against it, then something STINKS! Let Obama do his job and let the DoJ do it's job.
If roughly 70% want at least an investigation, then conversely about 65% do not currently favor prosecution. The problem is that the middle ground, an investigation, will seriously piss off those who want prosecution, because they really want imprisonment, and it will seriously piss off those who believe torture was actually doing "those people" a favor. And those who say they want an investigation probably don't care that much about then issue when you really get down to it.
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
.....in any given community, is it right to have a survey wether or not the crime should be investigated, the perps indicted, charged and eventually prosecuted?
Just do it.
.....in any given community, is it right to have a survey wether or not the crime should be investigated, the perps indicted, charged and eventually prosecuted?
Just do it.
I did not conduct or post about the survey. I'm just commenting. If I had done a survey I would have asked a question like the one in my comment below.
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
Fair enough
All laws are based upon some form of common consensus. If everybody decided to walk through the streets naked and have sex in public places; it would be legal as it has been in past civilizations.
There were only a couple of dozen pirates in the White House the past eight years. The laws they have broken are still in effect. There is no reason to ask you or me what we think. Crimes are alleged to have happened. Get on with it, plain and simple.
And a lot of people don't trust Patrick Leahy to do his immunity thing and reconciliation commission. He is trying to whitewash the real crimes and go after the wiretapping and rendition. Which are big, but not an excuse to ignore the worse ones like war crimes and true investigations, etc.
more than a lot of Senators, but I think this commission is a bad idea. Giving people immunity to tell us about crimes we already know they committed makes no sense. Holder should just start the investigations and get on with it.
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Wait about a year before the investigation begins; that way it is all over the headlines for the mid-term elections.
and if you believe the CIA killed Kennedy or was involved in 9/11.
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
The CIA was involved in those two, and many many more tragic events: Oklahoma City, WTC '93, USS Cole etc. etc.
Are you conflating the three?
Not to mention, two are ("conspiracy") theories and war crimes investigation would be, in principle, an investigation into whether laws were broken by the previous administration.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
WTC, the first episode, OK City and WTC the sequel, yes.
How much evidence, circumstantial or otherwize, do you need to call for another investigation of this? The Kean Zelikow commission was a white-wash. Nothing more, nothing less.
Not looking into 9/11 with regards to possible war crimes, is like not investigating both cars in a head on collision
But yes, I am MORE than willing to listen to theories (that's why I put 'conspiracy' in quotes. A lot of people don't think investigating CIA involvement is tinfoil hat territory) and evidence implicating the CIA in these tragic events, including the ones you added.
In the meantime, I don't understand why I have to raise my hand for all three of ricky's examples at once. So, if I raise my hand for "Obama investigates", I am trapped into asserting the CIA was involved with 9/11 in the same breath. Not that I rule it out, necessarily, but the point is not to, well, conflate the two.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
responsible for killing Kennedy and/or taking down the towers
on 9/11, then you think a) Obama is or should be suicidal,
b) already on the CIA payroll, or c) really is the Messiah.
In addition you should not be posting, just raising your hand in the privacy of your home with the blinds closed.
"The deal has to be negotiated in the real world, not on some idealized Aristotelian plane. We understand that. A 100-percent deal may be impossible."
Famous "Reality Based" Commentator
Actually, the one thing that worries me about Obama is that if he is all that he claims to be and makes the changes he wants, and that benefit the unwashed masses rather than the tycoons, is that his life in in peril. Or has nothing to worry about. Or is immortal.
So! Point taken, now that I am more clear on what you meant.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
So what? After 8 years of burying their heads in the sand and popping up long enough to defend the Pooflinger and his handlers, frankly, I don't care what they think when it comes to this subject.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
After yesterday's disgusting finger-waggling and tongue-lashing of bank executives - all of whom still walked out the door free men with millions of dollars in corporate bonuses at the day's end, I'm thinking we'll see another Jedi hand-waving act.
The smirking chimp and the heartless gimp (ow! my back! ow!) are going to ride off into the sunset without paying any price, criminal or political.
This is what irritates me about the democratic party. they want to be NICE and they want to be CIVIL. and ive said over and over that some of these GOPs need to be made to sit in a corner and think about what theyve done.
the reason why nancy pelosi's numbers are so poor can be linked to one thing...she insists on taking investigations and impeachment 'off the table'. she needs to stop this.
its like getting your ass kicked by a playground bully and then your mother forcing you to invite him to your birthday party. so now the bully kicks your ass and eats your cake. except this time the cake really IS a lie.
if you do the crime, you should be ready to do the time...thats the way it works
Why Pelosi was re-elected??
She's criminal slime.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I don't know about criminal slime, but I am as tired of the mealy-mouthed meanderings of she and Reid as I have been of republican mewling, bitchery and lies.
Ok, wait. There is no way anybody makes me nearly as sick as the average GOP politician, but anyway.
I dunno. She's "entrenched", right?
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
I think there should be an investigation is because the Republicans never learn. Years ago, I agreed with Gerald Ford that the country needed to move on and heal from the wounds of Watergate but instead of being grateful and learning from their mistakes the Republicans just figured they could get away with whatever they wanted. This has got to stop, they must be held accountable.
there are probably hundreds of issues where the law has been breached by the bush administration. it hurt like hell to open the paper on a daily basis and see the scandal de jour and to know in reality that they would skate. no consequences whatsoever. now the poll states the majority of the american people want the lawbreakers bought to justice. it matters not on which side of the aisle they reside. a lawbreaker is a lawbreaker. a nation without laws that are adhered to is hardly a nation. so whether it's a question of torture or suspension of habeas corpus, or not paying taxes, they must be made to pay. otherwise as the old adage goes, we might as well give them the keys because they are in fact driving the car. my thought: don't get too worked up over this, they will in fact continue to slide unscathed.
to talk in front of another 911 commission investigation panel, but this time under oath and live TV cameras, just like they did it to Clinton. Fuck, if they did to Clinton just for a deluxe blow job, which did not kill any American soldier or anybody else, or ruined the economy, then it can be done to Bush. Right afterwards, like the Italians did with Benito Mussolini, let's hang the asshole with a variable. Let's haging by the balls!
(Shit, I bet that would hurt)
I'm always thorny.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Please take a moment to fill out this poll for Congressman Wexler. Let him know what's most important to you. Thanks.
http://wexler.questionpro.com/
used in the war on terror ....there's no question (according to Turley) that they are war crimes according to treaties the US is party to....it's the so-called War itself that needs to be investigated.
Once Americans clearly understand that the whole thing is based upon LIES (OBL, WMD, 9/11, etc.), there will be no question that prosecutions should take place - not just for the torture and rendition of the few, but for the mass murder of hundreds of thousands.
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Just a reminder that government crime investigation is not something that's up to the President or Congress to instigate. This is the function of the Justice department. The Justice department is afraid to do it's job - it is also infiltrated with BushCo appointees.
Remember, the last eight years was a coo against the US by BushCo that nearly succeeded. Everything must be rebuilt from top to bottom before things can reach normalcy again. Starting with the DOJ.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
I received an e-mail front Senator Leahy's office today asking me to sign a petition to form a truth and reconciliation commission. I couldn't do it. instead, I sent him the following email:
"Senator Leahy,
I must respond to your request for my signature on your petition. You know I love you like a brother, right? So, don't take what I'm about to say in the wrong light....but you are screwing up with this idea. A truth commission is a poor and dangerous substitute for justice. And, it will fail to prevent the setting of precedents that legitimize the numerous points of outrageous criminality of our recent past, precedent s that can only enable atrocities of future would-be despots. The things that such a commission proposes to address were not mere "abuses". They were acts of treason. They were war crimes. They were crimes against humanity. They were crimes against the peace of the world. They were crimes against the Constitution. They were unforgivable crimes against the Honor of the Nation. They were crimes of the most irredeemable corruption. They were crimes against the People of the Nation. They were crimes against the People of the World.They were crimes against nature, against our own Earth. They were attempts to rule using applied malignant sociopathy as the ideal and operating model. And, they were committed by the Arch-Criminals, political or otherwise, of American history. More, they were conceived, orchestrated and executed by those who are without conscience and are devoid of any trace of remorse. Even more, they were committed by those who will remain without remorse or shame, regardless the graces bestowed upon them by a truth commission.
Even if these criminals were surrounded by my forgiveness, to such point that my forgiveness and absolution lay as close to them as the very blood in their veins, they could not be touched by it; their utter lack of remorse makes it impossible for them to be touched by mine or any other's forgiveness. Forgiveness is a thing that is powerless to break past the barrier of an absolute absence of remorse. From top to bottom, there is not a single person, soldier, civil servant, agent, political appointee or elected official who did not know better, as none of us has grown up in a moral or ethical vacuum. In the end, everybody made choices, most of them repeated choices. Because each had ample opportunity to choose otherwise, they are all culpable. Only justice can cure the ills they unleashed like a malignant cancer upon our society and upon the world. Do not lose sight of the fact that any justice that is visited upon these people is not for or against them. It is primarily for the sake and protection of our society, an investment in a more honorable future. Only secondarily would it be for the perpetrators, and therein, would have value only to the extent that justice can create the circumstances in which remorse can be discovered. It is a delusion to think that there can be any moving forward without obtaining justice, no matter how traumatic obtaining that justice will surely prove. And, it is utterly delusional to think that the rest of the world will ever bestow upon us the gift of their respect and trust should we fail to take the painful steps to procure justice..not, at least, as long as current memory lasts.
As much as I respect you, I feel compelled to point out that this proposal is little more than choosing the easy way out. We have done far too much of that already, and the harms that have accreted because of such choices run deep and dear. No more, Mr.Leahy. No more. No more.
I have an alternative idea or two. First, I can see truth and reconciliation for the lower level complicit, for example, enlisted ranks and lower level officers in the military. However, they must first be willing to turn the equivalent of State's Evidence. If they do so, and if they also sign a statement acknowledging that they have been participants in a great evil and that they repudiate their own acts, then....yes, grant them immunity. However, for both the architects of our disgrace and for those in leadership positions who were responsible for executing the policies and orders received from the highest levels, there must be accountability. There must be. Our own dead and maimed, the grieving, the 1.5(+) million dead innocents, the millions of maimed and displaced innocents, the uncountable number of people whose lives and peace have been destroyed, the uncountable millions of yet unborn who will have to shoulder the burden of paying for the works of the criminals, the billions of people in the world who are suffering or will be suffering as a consequence of the legion crimes that have been perpetrated by these smug and remorseless criminals demand and deserve justice. It would be a heinous crime in itself to obstruct that justice. Please do not consider such a path. Let justice work it's course. There can be no moving forward if that work is thwarted.
Second, if Congress and the new administration cannot see it's way to do that which every one who is not complicit in the crimes knows must be done, then at least honor the work that others like the International Criminal Court will be doing. When it comes time to provide evidence or to extradite these monsters to the Hague...do so. Do not obstruct the wider world's efforts to visit justice upon these people. Civilization cannot tolerate the crimes and atrocities that were perpetrated by these evil people through their malignant exercise of power. To allow their acts to in any way stand threatens the entire peace of the world going into the future. Please, if you who lead this nation by our consent cannot summon the moral courage to do the hard and painful work that must be done, at least summon the decency not to thwart those who have found the requisite resolve. Rejoin the the ICC. Do it to open the possibility of assisting those who are braver and who possess greater courage than we. Do it to repudiate the collective sociopathy and criminality of our recent past.
Mr. Leahy, the whole world is watching.
Best - Paul XXXXXXXXX"
He's a good guy...I hope he or somebody on his staff gets the message.
...to read again later.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
I doubt it will even be read by Leahy. Gotta try, though.
President Obama has said repeatedly that no one is above the law. This is a sign that Bush and his evil accomplices will be investigated and punished eventually. Don't take the moving forward BS too seriously, the main thing to give us hope is Holder will prosecute torture and beyond, as he already has given indication of in his grilling before congress. The war crime of attacking a country is the main offense, torture is down the line of true evil that came out of the Bush administration. I wish these discussions focused on the murder of over one million of our middle eastern brothers and sisters and less on the torture, but that is the opening we have for full war crimes hearings so I go along with this strategy. Republicans are criminals and they must never be allowed to rise from the ashes and continue their crimes against humanity.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
Well said.
70% of the country is now part of the far-left fringe. Right, Fox News? Right, Joe Scarborough? Right Chris "Big Yellow Head" Matthews?
How does it feel to be on the wrong side of history?
Lets investigate and prosecute Cheney before he dies of natural causes.
Getting the Country back on track economically is the most pressing issue right now and
I don't expect President Obama to make any forward moves on investigating
and prosecuting the BushCo Gang until things change for the better $$$$$.
However, I applaud the noise makers for keeping this important issue in the
news or at least on the internet. KUDOS AND DO NOT STOP.
Several European newspapers have had recent articles about taking on
the BushCo Gang. They may well beat us to it with the World Court. Friends!
As long as there are others making progress in bringing these criminals
to justice, I will be happy with the slow movement.
IT WILL BE DONE!
We need to concentrate on jobs, home ownership, healthcare, etc... but
keep the JUSTICE DREAM ALIVE AND ON TRACK TOO.
I agree with what you are saying. I don't know why pursuing one goal necessarily precludes pursuing the other. Far as I'm concerned, Obama should pursue all, full steam ahead.
Bush, Cheney, their henchmen and the bank ceos would be behind bars. What happened to our country?
NOBODY 2012
Mike.....you da damn SLOB of Bisbee
Ed Tarboosh
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