Report: Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer in December
A rather pertinent fact that seems to have been left out of the official story:
WASHINGTON, Jan 9 (IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.
The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.
The Hamas officials insisted that Israel not be allowed to close or reduce commercial traffic through border crossings for political purposes, as it had done during the six-month lull, according to the source. They asked Suleiman, who had served as mediator between Israel and Hamas in negotiating the original six-month Gaza ceasefire last spring, to "put pressure" on Israel to take that the ceasefire proposal seriously.
Suleiman said he could not pressure Israel but could only make the suggestion to Israeli officials. It could not be learned, however, whether Israel explicitly rejected the Hamas proposal or simply refused to respond to Egypt.
The readiness of Hamas to return to the ceasefire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Centre, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the ceasefire that had been in effect up to early November "if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza".
What are the chances that this extremely pertinent news item will make it onto the Sunday Morning talk shows? Since it is not advantageous to the Israelis, probably slim to none.
Now that's funny!
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
Extremely pertinent is exactly right. I'll be surprised if I hear anything more about it anywhere except here. Truly disappointing, but that's our complicit and lazy MSM for you.
"We will find fulfillment not in the goods that we have, but in the good we can do for each other."
Robert F. Kennedy
who also won't go out of their way to mention this little tidbit
That slipped through the cracks a few years ago.
But it is still TOTALLY PERTINENT to this conversation.
Watch this brief video and those of you who may not understand why the Palestinian people loathe the Israelis will begin to understand:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QJaPZLNLBu8
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I was searching for that video a few days ago. Thanks for posting it.
This Israeli human rights organization has been collecting eye witness testimony from Palestinians in Gaza:
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp
and our complicit media eats it right up. We really need to do away with armies. Entirely, on a world wide basis. All they do is turn young men and woman into animals. Killing with absolutely no qualms. When they are taken to task for it, "well, it was a mistake, we accidently fired a dozen tank rounds into that families house. We thought it was a training ground for terrorists". It's truly sickening. It happens again and again all over the world. We humans are truly barbaric.
The only ones I've ever seen get close to balanced is John Stewart and Olbermann when he had Leverett on, she didn't make it to Rachels show.
http://www.americanhummus.com/2009/01/10/keit...
That re-asserts Israel's right to defend itself.
Now even if you are extremely pro-Israeli, why does the United States need to pass such a measure?
Oh yeah here's why.
http://www.wrmea.com/archives/November_2008/p...
...and the ability to control vast resources from which to make more money is the real reason behind these never ending battles between ethnic groups around the world. They're just proxy wars for the big guys; the Palestinians, Israelis, Darfurians, Iraqis, etc., who are dying are just pawns - as well as US soldiers.
It's the big money guys in the background, the Zionists and other corporatists in Europe and the US, the Russians, and the Chinese who foment these little problems so they can further their global ambitions. Nothing changes - just a different group being exploited.
"Those who do not understand when enough is enough, can never have enough."
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Enough is never enough. They want it all. They want to be in total control of everything. We are just pawns in their games.
They just want to kill them all.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/...
Iran
What is your conceptual, continuity?
The writer fails to understand a basic issue: Hamas wishes to import vast amounts of weapons into the Gaza strip. So they have, and will always, be willing to a cease-fire which open borders, to allow them to arm themselves. Later, when they have long-range missiles and other armaments, they will break the cease-fire.
Israel was, and is, willing to cease fire given some measure of control of what comes over the border. This can be the Palestinian Authority, the Egyptians, the international community - anything.
What Israel is not ready for is a cease-fire to allow Hamas to re-equip themselves, only to return to the cycle of violence in another few months against a better-equipped enemy.
And don't forget: While Israel has signed and is willing to accept the two-state solution, the Hamas (unlike the PA) is constantly saying it is only looking for the destruction of Israel and is unwilling to negotiate any long-term peaceful solution.
I'm not claiming Israel is free of blame here. Far from it. But to state the Hamas was willing to accept a cease-fire while ignoring the terms under which it was willing to have this cease-fire is a grodd mis-understanding of the facts.
Your post is full of hatred for Palestinians.
Also
And don't forget: While Israel has signed and is willing to accept the two-state solution, the Hamas (unlike the PA) is constantly saying it is only looking for the destruction of Israel and is unwilling to negotiate any long-term peaceful solution.
Israel is clearly NOT interested in any solution where Palestinians get anything but a swift kick in the ass.
This is all about grabbing real estate that does not belong to them.
From the day the U.N., at the behest of the United States and Great Britain okayed the re-drawing of the map of Palestine to allow the Jews to have a "Homeland", the Israeli's have done nothing but grab more land and more land and more land and here are the maps to prove it:
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/map...
This is about genocide and stealing land from the indigenous population exactly the way we stole North America from the various Indian tribes who had lived here for thousands of years.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I love the arguments about the British Mandate helping Israel steal land from those poor arabs. I do agree that the British completely screwed up that entire region by creating a bunch of artificial countries that took no account of tribes or history. But to single out Israel is way off base.
First of all, it ignores the fact that there was a strong and growing Jewish presence in Palestine so it's not just a matter of stealing land from one group and giving it to somebody new (the way destroying Native American civilization was).
Second, as I mentioned above the Middle East is FULL of artificial countries. Essentially the British Mandate carved up the region and handed big chunks to families to did them favors, which is the source of many of the "royal" families there now. Then along with that they gave a piece to the Jews. So why single out the Jewish democracy as the big evil one and not all of the Arab dictatorships? I'll let you decide that for yourself.
"Palestine" used to consist of what is now Israel, the West Bank and Jordan. Why isn't anyone flipping out about the "Jordanian royal family" stealing all that land from the Palestinians? Why isn't Hamas targeting the Jordanian royal family in an effort to get their land back?
-Slightly irrelevant but fun historical fact:
The reason why that area is known as "Palestine" to begin with goes back to the Roman Empire. When the Israelites rebelled against Rome, they were cast out of their homeland. Then to LITERALLY add insult to injury, the Romans renamed Israel to Palestine "in honor" of the Philistines, who many of you probably know were biblical enemies of the Jews.
First off, back in the 1850s there were a handful of Jews in Palestine, British census documents put that number at less than 60,000, while the Palestinian Arab population was estimated at 750,000.
So why single out the Jewish democracy as the big evil one and not all of the Arab dictatorships? I'll let you decide that for yourself.
You've answered your own question. Israel defines itself as a Jewish democracy. A democracy for the Jewish people. Everyone else, as far as Israel is concerned, can go shoot the moon. If you'd read historical accounts of Israeli historians, no less, you'd know that Zionism excluded/excludes everyone who isn't Jewish. Therefore, the Arab Palestinian population in 1948 Palestine became refugees overnight, due to that very simple fact. Even today, where 20% of Israel's population are non-Jews, they are still considered and treated as second class citizens.
As for the dictatorships in the region you can thank Britain, France and Uncle Sam for that. Democracy is counter productive when you need to exploit another people's natural resources.
Here's what Bush thinks about dictatorships:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aD3xfT0c99g
Actually, I didn't answer my own question and neither did you.
All you did was list the arguments against the idea of a Jewish democracy, not why that's worse than an artificial Arab dictatorship that was carved out of a larger unified tribe (or that combined separate pieces of two tribes into one artificial nation). My question was specifically why would you single out one and not the other.
... the topic of this thread is the Isreli/Palestinian dispute.
How does the illegitimacy of many (often Israeli friendly) Arab dictatorships justify Israel's position?
Or is this just a distraction?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
...it illustrates the underlying hypocrisy in the anti-Israeli arguments. And the fact that you can't answer the question proves my point.
I answered your question, but you're here to score points, not make a valid argument.
No. You didn't.
And I'm not here to score points, but to make them. And maybe get you to see that the world isn't as black and white as you want it to be.
That's kind of an interesting comment from somebody who just accused me of having my brain stuck in first gear anyway, rather than answer a simple question or admit that he doesn't have all the answers (as I have done in regards to how best to handle the conflict itself).
As for being off topic, if conversations didn't move, to explore all the different sides of an issue, what's the point of having them? We might as well just post a bunch of links in all of our messages if that were the case. Besides, pointing out the underlying hypocrisy of a post is very much on topic of whatever the post is about.
.. contains fallacious logic.
Assumption:
You state that we think since Israel was artificially created it is "the big evil one".
Fact:
Since other states in the region were artificially created, and we do not single them out, then the assumption must be wrong.
Well, yes the assumption is wrong. But not because of the fact. For two reasons, both based on causation.
1 - The artificial beginnings do not in and of themselves directly cause evilness, so the existence of other artificially created states, both troubled and boring has no bearing.
2 - You stated a false assumption. We base our current dismay with Israel on its current actions, not its creation.
Israel is quite clear it makes its own choices now. Ergo, it is in charge of its destiny and responsible for its choices and the ramifications of them. Most Israelis I know seem well-educated, the nation is well-developed. I see no issues with their abilities to take self-responsibility.
As to your other point about native population similarities, I think I replied. I can document the Cherokee history with links if you like. But, yes they seem to have a slight native population problem on their hands.
... of many Arab dictatorships is admitted. So what?
How does that justify your position on any other level than Israelis=good and Arabs=bad?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Can you read Arabic? Did you read the charters yourself? Or did you read a translation provided by an Israeli orientalist or some "Middle East expert"?
I can't respond seriously to something that warrants ridicule. If you want a response I'll give you one:
Your clutch is stuck and your brain can't get into second gear.
Does that satisfy your needs?
Go read a history book or something before you come on here regurtutating talking points. Steretyoical zionist talking points.
Read up on post-Zionism while you're at it. You might learn a thing or two.
I gotta go. This has gone way off topic and leads to no productive conclusion.
that will come as a surprise to the christians and moslems who are citizens of the state, with full rights
yes...and keep leaving out the arab league war of 48...that is very important to do
How about full rights as human beings - for everyone without regard to race or religion?
But Israel has a math problem, and it always has. Israel wants to be viewed as a democracy, but it must also be ruled solely by Jews - regardless of demographics.
Since 1948, Israel has attempted to solve this problem with as much ethnic cleansing as it could possibly get away with. Under George W. Bush, a fellow war criminal, Israel has been able to get away with anything.
But he's on his way out, so we can try something radical - Let's let everyone vote! What a concept!
But it's not very likely that Palestinians living in the occupied territories would vote Likkud. Nor would the Palestinians still in refugee camps. So what to do?
Israel's current answer seems like all their previous answers - keep up the ethnic cleansing. Hey, it's not like they're slaughtering real people, they are "moslems" after all.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
in what is now Iraq, Syria, and Saudi Arabia. What about their lands being stolen from them after UN Res. 181? These Mizrahi Jews were there before the Ottoman Turk and before Balfour. There is much more to the history of the region than Balfour and Zionism.
"First of all, it ignores the fact that there was a strong and growing Jewish presence in Palestine so it's not just a matter of stealing land from one group and giving it to somebody new (the way destroying Native American civilization was)."
The Cherokee had peace and had integrated for 200 years with the Europeans, given them an even bigger percentage of the land than was held by Jewish peoples in Palestine during the Balfour era.
As a part-Cherokee, with my mother raised by someone from the era when the land was taken ... I am not buying this justification. There are striking parallels in how it started. Nothing the Cherokee did stopped the taking of the land in Georgia ... and Cherokee were even majority literate, Christian and integrated when it happened. They even had to negotiate their own passage to replacement land to avoid being exterminated on that trip. The ones not on reservations (like my family) had voluntarily fled. If you didn't voluntarily flee far enough, you still got penned in.
So, if someone sharing the land for a while makes it OK to shove the other all the way out later ... no .. you cannot sell that line to me. Did you mean something else?
But I do think it is more akin to apartheid, now.
But to be more accurate of an analogy, the Cherokee are more like the Jews after the Romans forcibly removing them from their homeland and before the founding of the state of modern state of Israel.
Now try to imagine some point in the near future when the Cherokee nation regroups and carves out ONE PIECE of Georgia to form their own country, the "New" Cherokee Nation. Then the people of Georgia begin complaining about how they were thrown out of "their homeland" and forming organizations seeking nothing less than the complete destruction of this New Cherokee Nation. And in so doing, they spend decades suicide bombing civilian Cherokee targets such as weddings and dance clubs. Then the New Cherokee Nation gives a piece of their country back to the Georgians, who then use it as a launching point to fire missiles at the New Cherokee Nation - even during a supposed cease-fire.
In this circumstance, you may feel that the New Cherokee Nation would still be wrong to retaliate against the Georgians, but it's still a much more accurate analogy to what's going on between Israel and Hamas.
What are you basing your assertion about Israel on? The majority of Israelis have always supported the two-state solution, but only if their security is guaranteed. And that's the problem. Why would they accept a "new" cease-fire agreement, when the Hamas has been firing missiles AT CIVILIAN TARGETS for the past 3.5 years since they left (as everyone wanted them to do) INCLUDING during the recent cease-fire?
Meanwhile, Hamas and Hezbolah have made their view of Israel very clear. Nothing less than the complete destruction of the state is acceptable to them. It's pretty obvious you've never actually read either the Hezbolah or Hamas charters because they're both pretty shocking documents. Especially the Hamas charter which reads like something a 9/11 conspiracy theorist would have written (seriously, it's full of Freemasons, Rotary Club, and Lions Club accusations. Those people are insane).
... of hundreds and hundreds of Palestinians improve Israel's security?
Are you saying Israel is doing this to lessen the violence?
Israel is well aware this monstrous behavior will provoke reprisals - in large part that is their intent. The continued violence works to Israel's advantage.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
For the record, I'm not saying that all of Israels actions are exactly how I would like to see them doing things. The entire situation over there is completely screwed up, and there are no pure good guys right now.
The part that pisses me off right now is this new narrative about how the Palestinians are these poor victims and the Israelis are just out to destroy everyone. For decades now Israel has been surrounded by enemies and subject to constant attacks within its own borders by organizations who have made no secret of wanting to completely annihilate them. I'd be curious to know how either of you would suggest handling that situation, but since you are lucky enough not to have any experience remotely related to that, there's no way you could really know.
At least I admit I don't know the best way out of this. But Israel sitting on their asses while they constantly get bombed isn't the answer either.
It's conventional military outclasses any combination of powers in the region. It is also a nuclear power and has enjoyed the protection of the world's only remaining superpower.
This very thread is about Israel's refusal to extend a cease fire, so the "constantly getting bombed" argument fails pretty miserably.
Also, this operation has been planned by the IDF for at least six months and is being launched in the waning days of Bush, the most pro-Israel President ever.
No, the "rocket attacks" were a predicted and desired pretense.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Yeah, I've heard that thing about operation being planned for 6 months a bunch of time, and it still doesn't hold water. There's a HUGE difference between strategically and tactically planning an invasion and politically planning to actually invade. Right now the Pentagon has very specific plans on how to invade just about any country in the world. The movie Wargames was a fable, but the idea of "wargaming" is very real.
And why doesn't "constantly getting bombed" fail as an argument? Are you telling me that if the U.S. had a ceasefire with Cuba DURING WHICH Cuba kept firing missiles at Miami, the U.S. would be fine with signing an extended cease-fire that gives Cuba ADDITIONAL concessions?
Cuba missile crisis doesn't even begin to compare to the Palestinian issue.
Cuba wasn't under an occupation for starters. I'm sure you can google the rest of the answers to your questions on your own.
Bye.
It was just an analogy, I wasn't referring to the Cuban Missile Crisis specifically, though I can see how you would read it that way. I meant Cuba (or whoever) TODAY. My mistake, and I apologize for the confusion.
Allow me restate my question:
Why doesn't "constantly getting bombed" fail as an argument? Are you telling me that if the U.S. had a ceasefire with
Cubathe island nation of Bartholemew DURING WHICHCubathe island nation of Bartholemew kept firing missiles at Miami, the U.S. would be fine with signing an extended cease-fire that givesCubathe island nation of Bartholemew ADDITIONAL concessions?Did you read the link? The IDF, embarrassed by their previous debacle in Lebanon, has been bragging about it.
Timing is everything. Necons are about to suffer a significant drop in power with the demise of Bush. Why now?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Yes you should invade them (Bag of Pigs) when trying to assassinate their leaders (CIA Events) fails .. after all it worked out so well for the US?
We got the Cuban Missile Crisis out of it! Go, go strategy! (end sarcasm)
Since you can make them,
My Fun Irrelevant Fact:
When I was a child, I was taught basic woodmanship, and how to shoot by the guy charged with assassinating Casto. I don't think he agreed with the assignment or methods. When I would hike up to his cabin to visit him, I was told to stay off the roads and watch for strange cars. The adults told me .. might be mafia. Took me 20 years, and a few released public documents, to understand why they told me that.
Perhaps you should have asked him about the wisdom of this road. I can't offer much, he died well over 30 years ago. But, he would have been drunk and responded to your inquiry with a string of profanities .. that much I do suspect.
I already stated in my response to Loom at Sun, 01/11/2009 - 12:08 that I wasn't saying anything whatsoever regarding the Cuban Missile Crisis, but simply using Cuba as an example TODAY. I also apologized for the confusion and restated my analogy as follows:
Why doesn't "constantly getting bombed" fail as an argument? Are you telling me that if the U.S. had a ceasefire with the island nation of Bartholemew DURING WHICH the island nation of Bartholemew kept firing missiles at Miami, the U.S. would be fine with signing an extended cease-fire that gives the island nation of Bartholemew ADDITIONAL concessions?
Now that it's been made clear (twice) that the bay of pigs and your friend in the cabin are equally irrelevant, I would love an answer to my question. Why does being bombed DURING A CEASEFIRE fail as an argument?
Again with the "surrounded by enemies" mantra?
There's a phrase in Hebrew for that. It's called "יורים ובוכים", "shooting and crying".
Let's see, Lebanon is controlled by the U.S.. No threat there. Hizbollah? Yes. They are 'manageable' so long as Israel withdraws from an occupied area known as the Shiba' Farms.
Syria: Israel bombed what it alleges was a nuclear reactor in norther Syria. Syria did not respond nor fire a single AA missile. Israel constantly violates Syrian airspace and the Syrians respond with verbal condemnations.
Jordan: Jordan signed a peace treaty in the late 90s and the ruling Hashemite family has had good relations with Israel's founders and the British.
Saudi Arabia: Controlled by the U.S. and hasn't the military capability nor the will to attack Israel.
Egypt: Signed a peace treaty with Israel in the 70s and its own presidents is an Israeli/American puppet.
Would you like me to go on?
The only thing threatening Israel's existence is its own behavior. It keeps stepping on others toes, breaking their knees and then crying foul.
"At least I admit I don't know the best way out of this. But Israel sitting on their asses while they constantly get bombed isn't the answer either."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oZYqAeIdYk
Sometimes ... it works.
Your response to the question of how best to respond to bombs being fired at your country - even during a cease fire - is "let it be?" Wow.
You have never heard the phrase,
Killing them with kindness?
If your goal is "not to be the subject of rocket attacks", a valid and necessary thing, there may be other paths to that goal than current actions.
Or perhaps
"In your anger do not sin;
when you are on your beds,
search your hearts and be silent."
It is not the right to be angry that is the issue, it is what is done when angry.
It's clear from your post that you have more opinion than facts.
1. When Israel "withdrew" from Gaza in 2005, it continued to control the land crossings, the sea and airspace. No one was allowed in or out. When fishermen went out in their boats to fish, the Israeli nayy would ram their boats and shoot at them.
2. The ceasefire agreement that was brokered in the summer and was supposed to last for 6 months included provisions that called on Israel to lift the siege and on Hamas to stop firing rockets. Hamas stopped the rockets, but Israel continued the siege.
3. Hamas have accepted Israel's "existence" and borders within the pre-1967 line. That means that Hamas will agree to a peace deal with Israel if Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza. They have repeated the same over the last few days as well.
4. Drawing comparisons from so-called popular American culture (i.e. 9/11 conspiracies) to discredit an occupied people's grievances is rather low. Just because terms like "Zionism" and "imperialism" and "occupier" don't mesh with your binary world view of the conflict, doesn't mean they are not legitimate. If you talked to a political scientist or an economist or a sociologist there is a good chance they'd use the same terms as those 'scary paragraphs you read in those scary charters'.
If Hamas is willing to accept the pre-1967 border, why have they flatly refused to remove the parts about wanting to annihilate Israel from their charter? It's just a piece of paper right? That was one of the major sticking points with the PLO (now Fatah), and when they finally did remove it, that was the beginning of true negotiation between the sides.
As for the charter itself, I'm not sure you even read my post, let alone the actual charter. I'm not talking about general terms like imperialism and occupier. YOU brought those in, not me. I'm being very specific about what it says.
According to the Hamas charter:
1. Israel is following exactly the path laid out by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion - a document long proven to be a forgery. Their ultimate plan is to control everything between the Nile and Euphrates rivers (if that's the case, why did they give up the Sinai in exchange for peace with Egypt?)
2. The real forces behind Israel are the Freemasons, Rotary Club, Lions Club and other secret organizations who are responsible for the French Revolution, Communist Revolution, WWI, WWII, and tried to take over the world by replacing the League of Nations.
Find me a legitimate sociologist or economist who would use those same terms. I triple dog dare you. :)
.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
is in my post in reply to him.
.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
If Hamas is willing to accept the pre-1967 border, why have they flatly refused to remove the parts about wanting to annihilate Israel from their charter? It's just a piece of paper right?
They've left it there for symbolic reasons, explaining it as "one cannot forget his/her own history, but can move on".
That was one of the major sticking points with the PLO (now Fatah), and when they finally did remove it, that was the beginning of true negotiation between the sides.
True negotiations? You know what? I get tired of repeating the same thing to people like you who post the same propaganda over and over, but I'll do it again for the sake of this debate.
Fatah got nothing in return for recognizing Israel. They got swiss cheese-like territories, they're not allowed to control and Israel continued to build on Palestinian lands and demolish houses. So the argument that the only obstacle for peace is Hamas' recognition of Israel is flat out wrong.
When did Israel ever recognize the Palestinians' right to exist? Does Israel recognize their right to the West Bank and Gaza? If so, then why does it continue to build colonies in the West Bank? After all, according to international law, building settlements there is illegal.
Yes, I did nearly fall out of my chair laughing at the Rotary Club inclusions.
There is also the ... We need more art and artists article that ends in the statement that goes something like: And we are not kidding, since people who fight never joke. Art, yes. Article 19. Great Stuff.
Its in here .. go to 1988
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/mideast.asp
Also in here, all the ignored UN resolutions and Balfour text.
Should someone dig up the links on hudna offers from Hamas for this guy? Hezbollah has also been pretty clear, you stay out of Lebanon, they stay out of Israel. Even in this current situation they just bluster
"Don't even think about coming in here again right now"
(like Israel wants a two front war?)
"Those were not our missles."
(Ignore that, we're on it.)
I am reading more and more commentary that by Arafat ignoring the 2000 plan, and Israel ignoring all the presentations of the 2002 Saudi plan (both 2 state ones) ... and then adding this invasion to Lebanon, that a two state solution is probably out the window for at least a generations.
So, what should Israel do now?
Go for a secular constitutional democracy that treats everyone from the sea to the Jordan river as equal and guarantees everyone citizenship based on their place of birth rather than their (Jewish) religion.
I wanted to hear his answer. But since you did answer, I should repost this link for that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg
Perhaps you and I can make a bet. Who will be the first to make a true secular democracy ... Qatar (home to the ever evil state supported Al Jazeera) or Israel? Sadly, if either of us wins, it will likely be our grandchildren collecting on the bet.
A television network is EVIL??????? Is that like FOX is EVIL?
It doesn't come across in text well, I know. Al Jazeera is fine. And if you are curious about why I singled out Qatar, have you heard the Emir in interviews recently?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5yJNCQRSZQ
Right of return.
The people of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage." J.K. Galbraith
who were forced to flee their ancestral homes in 1948?
Fairly extensively. Posters comment on US news media is valid.
Xinhua comment from Hamas even after cease fire had expired.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-12/20/...
They clearly state what they are looking for.
Would you also please note that the initial rockets were NOT Hamas rockets (PFLP & Islamic Jihad)?
What is interesting in that article in the light of the current negotiation is that Hamas does not trust Egypt. So, the chance Egypt can broker something Hamas, esp. after the ground invasion bloodiness and popular sentiment, can convince its people is a good agreement is probably very low.
So, if we'd read foreign media, we'd know that Israel is right that any Egyptian-brokered deal will likely not hold, and if other parties want peace, someone else better step up as mediator, fast.
They wouldn't tell you the truth about Israel, because then they'd have no money and would have to find real jobs.
Use your fingers and talk to experts who aren't obligated to cover the US's ass.
http://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-co...
http://heathlander.wordpress.com/2007/02/08/t...
If it is discussed anywhere other than Olbermann and Maddow....perhaps Morning Joe will bring it up....................
kidding, just kidding.
Israel/US/Abbas had to rush the plan because McCain lost the Election. Israel had to invade and kill as many Palestine people as possible before Obama took office. Even with the support of Law Makers, all know Obama will not go along with murdering woman/children. Joe Lieberman and Diane Feinstein will have alot of work to do in helping Israel now with Bush out of Office. Israel broke the UN settlement agreement done in 1948. Yes Israel was allowed to settle on Palestine land after the Jewish Holocaust. From that day to now Israel has planet cells in every positin of the USA for this day to wipe Palestine off the face of the earth. Now the UN is powerless as nothing was done when the US illegally invaded Iraq and killed 1 million people. israel felt it's now or never and they went for it. Greed and Evil have a way of coming back at you and now Israel can't use that old story of being the victims of the Nazi's or the chosen children of God. Now the World see Israel for who they really are TERRORIST. One good piece of news comes out of this Palestine Holocaust Massacre, Iran now has reason to develope a Nuclear Weapon to protect from an Israel invasion. At lease Israel has Nukes they can use if they choose.
ZIONISM SUCKS!
ISRAEL broke the cease fire on Nov the 4th. Coincidence?
They wanted to do it during the latest days of the Bush Neocon regime after McCain LOST to Obama.
Israel have to return to the 67 borders otherwise they won't have a long lasting peace!
Where is { Deleted, knock off the petty insults.SiteMonitor} ment TUBESOX = Uncle McCarthur?
No calling people out, or insults.
Yes, sadly he will go along with it....just as Bush did, just as Clinton did, just as Reagan did....face facts, the US government couldn't give a sh*t what happens to Palestinians or their children.
Just listen to what Leverett had to say about it on my link above, she said that we will be longing for the Bush years by the time it's over
When the world sees Hillary Clinton as a neo-con, you know it's not us Left wing extremists or sexism that forced us to not vote for her, and that Obama's selection means that we're in deeeep sh** for a long long time to come.
And, if you think tourism is coming back to your town,
Leverett also said she's actually taking Ken Pollock with her on her maiden voyage trip??
Hillary Clinton voted against the Dems and Obama, and with Lieberman and all of the Republicans to continue the use of cluster bombing innocent civilians.
Here we fu**ing go again.
"What Israel is not ready for is a cease-fire to allow Hamas to re-equip themselves, only to return to the cycle of violence in another few months against a better-equipped enemy.
And don't forget: While Israel has signed and is willing to accept the two-state solution, the Hamas (unlike the PA) is constantly saying it is only looking for the destruction of Israel and is unwilling to negotiate any long-term peaceful solution"
I have to say that I agree with that entirely, and that statement alone negates the whole point of this article.
C&L, I normally agree with you about everything, and Israel IS and always has gone way "overboard", but Hamas is dangerous and not to be trusted.
Israel is caught between a rock and a hard place - people in the Gaza strip are essentially kept in a human pen and not permitted to move around and come and go as they please - but if you don't have restrictions you WILL have a better equipped Hamas and more suicide bombings in Israeli buses, plazas and nightclubs.
What are they, animals? Restrictions? In a free and democratic Israel? Didn't know democratic states needed to restrict the former owners of the land they now sit on.
Bottom line: This entire fiasco is about land and the fact that these Palestinians didn't flee or walk away and leave their property of their own free will. That's what it's all about.
http://www.mystudydate.com/pg/blog/Martini/re...
Look at how much land the Palestinians now have, which is basically been narrowed down to concentration camps.
Perhaps the Jewish people should never have been able to park their asses in that region, displace people already there, and call themselves Israel back in the forties? I don't know.
Ahmadinejad is probably partially right when he says that the Holocaust was terrible but why did the Palestinians have to pay for it.
But where were the Jewish people to go after WW2 and the Holocaust? They had to have something of their own. What, were they going to filter back in to Germany and Poland after what happened to them there?
And now that they are there, and not going anywhere, they must be able to protect themselves. Open borders would be like suicide for many Israeli citizens. Tell me you see that.
Ended, the Jewish people wanted to go to the US, Canada and the west in general. They were not allowed to. Jewish leadership forced them to move to Palestine. Noam Chomsky states it better than I ever could.
Today, in the two hypothetical situations where ...
A) You dissolve Israel, and ask other countries to settle the current citizens. The US and most European Countries would be happy to have them. We already ask for more work visas for Israelis. We could have them permanently? Yes, please. The immediate Arab neighbors, no, they do not want them.
B) You dissolve all remaining Palestinian claims and territories, and ask other countries to settle the current stateless Palestinians. The US doesn't want them. A few European countries will take a handful, carefully screened. The neighboring Arab countries DO NOT WANT! Jordan has a million naturalized ones they'd like you to take off their hands now too.
Again, both situations are hypothetical. I'm calling for neither! But, I stand by the predicted reaction to the respective calls to resettle each set of peoples. Irony. Irony.
fact...the united states and other countries allowed very limited immigration post ww2
palestine was the only alternative for many jews, who had no homes to go to, or couldnt bear to return to a country that had assisted in their slaughter
the jewish agency did not force these people to migrate to palestine
That's the "Defense" you are proposing, like NAZIS did to the Jews In The Warsaw Ghetto.
"they must be able to protect themselves."
Breaking a Cease fire exactly on Nov the 4th and provoking HAMAS to an Scalation?
The whole world community supports UN 242.
But US and Israel.
I see it differently. You are looking at this whole thing with a borrowed set of eyes.
First off, it's not like "the Jewish people" up and left after the Holocaust in Europe and headed toward Palestine. The Holocaust, from a political perspective, paved the way for an easier acceptance by the international community for a new Jewish state.
The fact of the matter is that Hertzel in the 19th century was already calling for a Jewish state in Palestine. Zionism wasn't born out of the blue on a clear day after the Holocaust.
Look up the Balfour declaration. The British Lord Balfour agreed to give European Jews a piece of land in Palestine. Between 1920 and 1948, the British mandate in Palestine went on to help European Jewish agencies build governmental institutions and expand "colonies" further into Palestine.
Now, as far as opening borders go, it will not be a suicide. You're talking as if Hamas is the Japanese Imperial Army. In essence all they have is home made rockets that make more noise than damage.
Suicide? Look at your skewed perspective. Close to 900 Palestinians have been killed in the last 2 weeks. 4000 have been injured. About 50% of those are women and children. Today alone the Israeli army killed another 27 Palestinians. Yesterday they killed 3 Gaza-based journalists. The humanitarian aid has been stopped after Israeli tanks shot and killed two UN drivers, all the while only 13 Israelis have been killed since the 27th of Dec. 10 of whom are soldiers and you expect me to take you seriously when you say that opening the borders would be "suicide" for Israel.
Just out of curiosity, where do you get your information about what's going on? Or do you have a personal agenda you're trying to advance?
Chomsky and other intellectuals explains this fully. The only reason the existance of a state of Israel was even considered was that nobody wanted them. Racism was blatant. Chomsky himself, was continually beat up as a child in the US because of it. The Holocaust itself was only used as a convenient excuse by the Allies, to excuse their own crimes against humanity that occured including bombing innocent people in massive campaigns. They needed a bad guy, and the Holocaust justified their actions tremendously. But, after the war was over, nobody wanted the Jewish immigrants and it was perfect timing for Zionist leadership to offer another option. The rest they say, is history.
I think we're saying the same thing. I'm in total agreement with you.
But, it's also important to emphasize the fact that the Holocaust made it easier for the world community to overlook the concerns of the Palestinians, especially between 1945 - 1948.
the world ever gave a crap about the Palestinians, even now. The world's governments don't view them as people, but all terrorists. It's much easier to deal with disputes this way.
But how do you deal with a situation in which enough of them ARE potential terrorists - and you can't pinpoint which ones? How does Israel deal with that?
... just as they are doing right now. Israel loves the excuse.
Just as the Manifest Destiny folks loved the "fearsome savage."
Corruption favors the wealthy.
about what's going on? Or do you have a personal agenda you're trying to advance? I have always wondered how the pro-Israeli posters are always on the same page with the same facts and figures. Do a little more research and you will find the world's best propaganda dissemination network. The RNC has nothing on the Israelis.
Start here-
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Megaphone Desktop Tool
The Megaphone desktop tool is a Microsoft Windows application distributed by the World Union of Jewish Students and other pro-Israel organizations, through the Giyus.org website. Released on July 19, 2006, it delivers real-time alerts about key articles, videos, blogs, and surveys to subscribers so that they can voice their opinions and work together to support Israel on the public opinion front.
and in agreement with you that what Israel is doing is horrific and outrageous - but you must concede the fact if Israel opened the borders there would be suicide bombings in Israel.
Neither you nor I can say that for sure. But it's likely. On the one hand, Hamas has rejected suicide bombings a few years ago as a way of "resisting the occupation", on the other hand, what we've seen in the last two weeks could very well push people to do just that.
The only solution is to give Gazans something tangible, something they can "take to the bank" as it were. Let UN humanitarian aid in, stop the bombings, stop the shelling and invite them to the negotiations table. Showing good will, after killing so many Palestinians, will work wonders.
Gazans need to see that they've got more to lose by resorting to means X or Y or Z. If you've got nothing to lose, as many Gazans now do, then very little can stop you from voicing your discontent in violent ways.
The whole Israel / Palestinian thing is probably the worst, most bleak, most dire, most hopeless, most "solutionless" situation this world has ever seen throughout all of time.
Sadly through the current operation making it reality in self-fulfilling prophecy.
Yes, Hamas stopped suicide bombings before. But they aren't the only group in Gaza. So, there is the high emotions after the killings you mention.
Hamas really did try to behave like an elected body, govern and negotiate once it put itself in that position. Many Gazans will see this and say, "And look where it got them". So, many will chose to join more radical groups. As has been pointed out.
Hamas was quite willing to brutally police Gaza, even when preventing attacks by other groups on Israel. I suspect a combination of alpha-male like consolidation of power over Fatah and anyone else who won't accept them as in charge, and preparing for a negotiating base pragmatically.
When the bombings started, what was the first things taken out? Hamas' internal security. THESE were the guys sitting on the other more radical factions. These were also the guys rejecting Al-Qaeda. Hamas used to be able to say, "no suicide bombing" we have truce, and enforce it. Now? Hmmm.
Good point. Which reminds me of Alan Johnston, the BBC reporter who was kidnapped in Gaza by some stray faction. A few months later, Hamas were the ones found him, negotiated his release and freed him.
Timmy. What else can they do? They don't have an army. When the world is not seeing Israeli aggressions, Israel silently keeps herding these people into smaller and smaller places. How would you like it if your neighbour started doing that to you? Soon instead of owning your house, you are now confined to your bathroom with no food, and the water shut off? That's what is happening.
The United States has to leave Israel isolated and show them that they ABSOLUTELY MUST concede land and rights to the Palestinian people. Things probably won't change much as long as they have our government's backing. I hope the world is able to put pressure on us and get us to do what is right.
The United States needs to become an honest broker if it's truly interested in seeing peace in the region. The United States' backing of Israel's actions over the years shows that both countries are interested in giving the Palestinians the run around, the illusion that peace is possible, somewhere over the proverbial horizon.
The conditions the Palestinians currently live in, both in the West Bank and in Gaza are actually worse than they were before the so-called peace process started back in the early 90s. Rabin's assassination by a Jewish fundamentalist in 1996 didn't help either.
So now, the the number of Palestinians who believed that there is a chance for peace with Israel and a chance for a Palestinian state has diminished. Yet, Israel keeps blaming the victim for the misery, blaming the Palestinians for the occupation. It's like neo-con dogma, up is down, the sky is green.
Paging all brokers now!
I don't see either the US or Egypt as viable brokers, certainly not in the short run. A cease fire, maybe. Peace would take someone both sides trusted.
Perhaps it will take something even bigger than this to happen for the world - and even the United States - to say enough is fucking enough already.
It's too bad it has to get to that point though.
truly amazing
contain shrapnel.
Many many Jewish people DID stay in Germany and Poland after WWII. Why wouldn't they? It's where they were from.
who tried to return to poland? they were slaughtered
they also found their homes and belongings stolen by the poles
same with the german jews
germany has paid reperations....poland never has
Thanks for telling me my parents weren't from the region. There is more to Jewry than the Ashkenaz.
But then, the Ashkenaz has always found us Brown Jews "quaint" and "folksy". "Superstitious" and "illiterate" Try being a non-Ashkenaz running for office in Israel.
dont tell me my perception of sephardim...thank you very much
For the excellent map of the shrinking Palestine.
A picture truly paints a thousand words.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_dai...
nobody is concerned about Israel being able to resupply it's weapons arsenal because the U.S. will happily do that for them.
Bringing them in from Greece.
Israel simply won't allow any Palestinian government on their borders.
Al Jazeera & Xinhua both reported this at the time it happened.
Qatar 1, China 1, US 0
Its the medialypics, Middle Eastern competition.
The Emir of Qatar gave an unusually blistering speech calling for an immediate Arab-brokered cease-fire and condemning Israel. They are one of the US's strongest allies in the region, and the only one willing and happy to host our troops.
Speech here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VINgrbYLH4s
Why is it the apologist for Israel are always claiming Hamas or Hezbollah are importing "massive amounts of weapons". Other than a bunch of crappy rockets I don't see a lot of fire power on their side. Israel says that dozens of rockets are fired everyday, but so far I think there has been only 1 death attributable to these, more than likely, homemade devises. And of course we are now close to a thousand men, women and children Palestinians killed and many more injured.
During the 2006 Lebanon/Israeli conflict it was stated that Hezbollah fired around 4,000 rockets into Israel killing 40 or so Israeli. While you have to feel for those deaths you can't say that the rockets are quite effective. And of course the retaliation killed thousands of Lebanese and destroyed many parts of Lebanon.
Just one vicious circle jerk.
Israel NEVER retaliates in a proportional manner - they go way overboard.
But are the they provokers / antagonizers of all of this?
It's all so ugly and hopeless.
What exactly is the purpose of your question? The article above explains clearly how Israel provoked and antagonized. Now, you're asking if they really did so? Yes. It is all so ugly. That's what happens when a state behaves as if its above the law, especially international law.
Take a few minutes to read this article written by an Israeli professor teaching at Oxford. It'll open your eyes.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/g...
Focusing only on Israels missteps perhaps though.
Though looking at this through only that side brings an interesting conclusion. Since 1967, Israel has had complete control over the Palestinian refugees in their territories.
Complete control and absolute power, to use as they chose.
What's that old saw about absolute power again?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdY1M1yrfjU
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I love musical saws.
She took part in the demonstration in Toronto calling for the immediate ceasefire of this genocide being committed by Israel.
Good for her!! It's good to see younger people standing up for justice against oppression.
#1) Israel shattered the ceasefire on Nov 4, while the US media was wrapped up in the US elections (great timing by the Zionists) by bombing tunnels in & out of Gaza, killing numerous Palestinians.
#2) The Israelis bombed those tunnels with bunker-busters (GU-39s, I recall) just recently supplied by the US.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Yep, the Israeli's said the Nov. 4th armed incursion wasn't a breach of the cease fire since they called a "Cease Fire Time Out".
I didn't know you could do that past Kindergarten!
and why is this report full of holes?
hamas did not cease all rocket attacks...they reduced them
and on nov 4, israel bombed a tunnel that was being built into israel...a clear violation of the cease fire
Until you clarify what you meant by accusing me of
"taking the words of Palestinians" in the previous thread.
http://crooksandliars.com/cernig/israel-gaza-shooting-itself-foot#comment-975908
You do realize how incredibly racist that sounds. If you substituted the words Palestinians with any other principle in this dispute it may qualify as hate speech.
I have not flagged that response as offensive, as I have repeatedly given you the benefit of doubt and would like to hear your clarification of it before flagging it for moderation. Perhaps you did not mean it like it sounded.
Are not going to be happy until they get that big rock back under that gold dome...bet on it
Ooh, Disneyland for Muslims, screaming kids and all
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_UH3XXx3ZAI
Pure genocide, and our Government helps them do it.
Government + the Federal Reserve = organized crime
Um, excuse me but aren’t we supposed to be in fear of a major terrorist attack somewhere in the US? If Israel keeps this up, this major terrorist attack won’t be occurring in the US, but in Israel instead.
I fear, due to the overwhelming influence Israel has on practically ALL U.S. legislators, the United States HAS BECOME ISRAEL!!!
Think about the power AIPAC has over even President-elect Obama! He has remained silent on this genocidal war of aggression, this "Shock and Awe" over-kill Israel is perpetrating against an occupied territory! He appears to be COWERING in fear of the power Israel has over him. Listen to the one-sided speech he, Hillary, Biden and many others have made at various AIPAC meetings! I believe it was Biden who declared, "I am a Zionist!!"
People don't seem to realize that the Orthodox Jews have built ERUVS all over the United States. There is even an Eruv around the White House, the Congressional buildings and even around the freakin' Supreme Court!!
Hello!!!
Google an excellent article written by Scott Ritter over at Commondreams maybe a year ago. He called it out as it is. When he ended the article he said, "Why don't we just raise the Israeli flag here and get it over with?"
And if you're not hip to what an "ERUV" is, just YouTube "Westhampton Beach New York Eruv Meeting" and you'll get a real eye-opening lesson into what's going down right here in the United States of Israel.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Rachel Maddows show had a female Middle East scholar within the last few weeks-(can't find the transcript)that reported not only that Hamas wanted top go back but that it was the American government - Bush and the Congressional sheep - who told Israel not to renew it.
Our Democrats/Knesset members must have secretly made signs of support to both Bush and Israel. Our proof was the overwhelming signs of supplication they showed to Israel within hours of the opening of Congress. Something which happened after the massive assault over all of Lebanon, which had been pre-prepared for by our Congress doubling the arms shipments to Israel shortly before the " Hizb'allah kidnapped two soldiers story came about.
See a distinct pattern here of our Congressional Dems LYING and DECEIVING the public on Israel's behalf?
Even when Rice recently lied to the UN by claiming Hamas is in power in Gaza only because of a coup, did no one in America rush to tell the truth. The Bush Administration said the same thing about Lebanon. When in fact it was the US and Israeli intervention in both that forced, in Palestine's case, the hand of Hamas to stop the corrupt Fatah from kissing the Americans and Israelis asses.
But it all is overshadowed now, in my opinion - by Obama himself, who with all hopes and support of all those oppressed by a neocon/AIPAC run American government, the minute he wins his position as King of the Hill hands off his foreign credentials to the neocon Princess -Hillary Clinton.
His briefings and his silence indicate he must know of and approve of the truth of the US urging Israel to break the ceasefire.
HOW demeaning can that be, along with his golfing photos, to those Palestinin's crawling around the rubble, in the dark under the new bloodied boots of Israeli butchers?
Selfish and cowardly Democrats echo the selfish and cowardly Israelis. Both are shocked and label as extremists, insurgents and terrorist, all who don't fall to their knees on command when handed a few bucks.
Palestinians have more courage and integrity than all the American and Israeli governments combined.
http://www.iiss.org/publications/strategic-co...
... to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;
That whosoever would not seek the Lord God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."
2 Chronicles 15:12-13
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Technically .. Jews, Christians and Muslims all do really worship the same god.
But, I really think religion is not very central to this dispute (as others said its about who gets to live where). As in many conflicts, "God is on our side", Which side? Your own side of course. The other guy's god never counts (even if its the same one).
Christianity and Islam are Jewish sects.
not those that do not keep the jewish faith
Second Chronicles (immediately following the quoted passage at 15:16) tells of the fate of Maachah, the mother of Asa, the king. She built an idol, and for that, she was removed as queen. No death (for she was of Israel, and hence, a full human being).
Death for non-believers is a central tenet of the Torah. And Christianity. And Islam. Where do you think they came up with the idea?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
you arent...neither am i, but i do know that the only people god commanded be sent from the land and killed, were idol worshipers
i suggest you speak to any rabbi...of any sect...he will agree with that
I'm a recovering Catholic, but go figure. We had a lot of Bible tests and much of it stuck whether I liked it or not.
Still, it says what is says.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
again...you are neither a talmudic or torah scholar
your understanding of the text is therefore...invalid
funny, you dont talk about the passages in the koran that talk about killing jews, beating ones wife, marital rape...you dont talk at all about honor killings
wonder why that is?
I just eviscerated your adolescent and remarkably shallow biblical response by quoting a passage immediately following the one you disagreed with. (Ooooh, do you think we need a scholar for that?)
And this is invalid because I'm Catholic (recovering)? Because your opinion, based on a barely remembered chat with a rabbi, is valid? Because you're not Catholic?
Oh, and I made darn sure my response to your criticism also included Christianity and Islam. In fact, I believe my post specifically said: "And Christianity. And Islam." Was that not clear enough?
BTW, you really don't want to get into wife beating, rape (marital or not), or honor killings. While the Koran might have some horrible things to say on those topics, the Torah provides the bases. A barbaric document.
Finally, are you saying that I hate Jews, or bad-mouth Jews, because I'm Catholic (recovering)?
Because it sure sounded like that was what you were saying. Why are you so eager to pigeon-hole people? I know it makes collective attacks so much easier. But if that is all you have (and I've seen little else), maybe your underlying arguments are simply invalid.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Deuteronomy, a little Leviticus, would be about the area of the old laws (as pointed out common root is Torah for this and some of the Koran).
Illustrated Old Biblical Laws ... with Legos!
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/inde...
I really love those slide shows.
.... They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, ... to destroy the whole land."
Isaiah 13:3-5
Corruption favors the wealthy.
by other nations as the result of the people not keeping the torah
parts of isaiah are read every year on the 9th of ab, which marks the destruction of the first and second temples
Why is it whenever I hear the name Omar Suleiman, I think of this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpg-KIKD5gU
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/arti...
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
if this is true, and every indication says it is, then
israel IS A TERRORIST STATE with the US govt backing
them. this has to stop, genocide in gaza is not acceptable.
Without US funding, Israel will collapse--as it should. The support of Israel is of no benefit to the United States. We have nothing in common with that country built on land stolen from the Palestinians. Israel is a socialist, theocratic state that feeds on the world's guilt over the holocaust while it treats Palestinians as viciously as the Nazis treated Jews.
The holocaust was terrible, but it was more than two generations ago. It is over and so, too, Israel's ability to continue to feed on our collective guilt is over. To the United States as well as to every other nation in the world, Israel is only a source of trouble. It is time to end it.
If the US will cut off all support to Israel, the nations of the world will show us a new sense of respect, and our damaged relationships will begin to be repaired, especially with Middle Eastern nations--and that is definitely in our interest. As Billy Carter once famously said, "The Arabs are the ones with the oil, not Israel."
As for Jews in the United States who have so much regard and love for Israel that they willingly jeopardize the honor and security of the United States, let them move to the country they profess so much love for and fight for their Zionist beliefs there.
first, saying that hamas brought rocket attacks to a virtual standstill, still means that there were rocket attacks
second, on november 4, israel bombed a tunnel...killing one
hamas responded with rocket fire and that was when israel bombed the house, killing more terrorists
israels been taking plestenian land for more than 50 yrs... that itself is a terrorist act.. but still people try to turn a blind eye toward the israeli attrocities ..../ n right now too.. when the Gazans r goin through the worst humanitarian crisis.. the super powers especially America keeps lull about it!!!!
its hi time that we stand up against these double standards!!!... cut off all support to israel!!!!!!
I hate when the reply doesn't go where you expected ...
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