Top UN Torture Investigator: Decision Not to Prosecute Violates International Law
Is there any other legitimate legal position to take on this? I'd be curious to hear the arguments:
VIENNA (AP) — An Austrian newspaper quotes the U.N.'s top torture investigator as saying President Barack Obama's decision not to prosecute CIA operatives who used questionable interrogation practices violates international law.
Manfred Nowak is quoted in Der Standard as saying the United States has committed itself under the U.N. Convention against Torture to make torture a crime and to prosecute those suspected of engaging in it.
Obama assured CIA operatives on Thursday they would not be prosecuted for their rough interrogation tactics of terror suspects under the former Bush administration.
Nowak also says in the newspaper interview published Saturday that a comprehensive independent investigation is needed, and that it is important to compensate victims.
Thank you for reminding President Obama of what his legal obligations are. As Americans, we must remember our nation signed the U.N. treaty against torture. But if Obama does not plan to prosecute the torturers and those who authorized these crimes, perhaps the U.N. can prosecute.
Until the congress grows a spine* the legal restrictions on the president are exactly zero. That is the lesson of the Bush presidency.
*chance of that is infinitesimal, unless congress is controlled by republicans and the president is a dem.
it is a sad day for america when the president of the united states is more then willing to let the crimes of the bush cheny cut throuts slither off scott free with all the blood and misery they caused ,and to hear obama say, when thier is more then enough proof of these crimes [ i have seen no evidence of any crimes that have been commited by the bush cheny administration] if justice is blind then so is obama !
... Obama has botched it here. By choosing to obstruct justice in promising that CIA operates will not be prosecuted for their complicit and complacent roles in the Bush/Cheney torturelitarian "Waterboard 'Em For Jebus" regime, you can forget everything Grover Norquist said about government small enough to drown it in a tub -- Obama has effectively boiled and dumbed down our entire concept of justice to something small enough to fit on a cutesy-assed MySpace comment: "Never Regret Anything That Ever Made You Smile!"
Is that the kind of country you want when it comes to justice -- people getting off on sorts of nefarious low and high crimes and misdemeanors imaginable just because he or she was grinnin' like Terri Schaivo all hopped up shrooms?!? "Ahhh beez smilin' y'honor!"
When Jeffrey Dahmer sprinkled parsley over the boiled head of the Cambodian teenager, should he have got a pass just because he was smiling like Julia Childs after a 5th of cooking sherry?!? Going "bork! bork! bork!" like the Swedish Chef?!?
When Lyndie England was made famous by those Abu Ghraib cameras, should she have walked just because she was grinning like a shithouse rat while following orders?!? Should the FBI have called off the sting on Sen. Jefferson just because he sported a Joker-esque rictus while stuffing $90k large in that office freezer?!?
When the pedophiles within the Department of Homeland Security got busted, perhaps they should've gotten off scott free just because fondling children made them happy, and gave 'em a nice wide smile (amongst other things)?!?
What's the point of clamping down on AIG executives and crooked banker cretins since it become apparent that they were smiling all the way to the bank at the same time they were completely ripping it off and destroying our economy in the process not to mention smiling like hell when they signed their Obama campaign contribution checks?!?
If this is the sort of CHANGE President Obama always intended to bring to Washington, then why should he bother pretending to pretend anymore?!? Instead of having everyone I mentoned tried, convicted, and crammed so far and deep into a federal prison that the wardens will have to feed them with slingshots, why don't he just sign an $800-billlon no-bid powerball welfare check to Halliburton or KBR to bulldoze all the prisons, award everyone with the Nobel peace price or The Publisher's Clearing House ... and do so with a big shit-eating smile. So that he won't ever have to regret it, either.
News such as this makes me think, "I've seen it all in this nation," only to realize that tomorrow's headlines are guaranteed to top it. I fully expect the front page of The WaPo to have a picture of both Bush and Obama grinning ear to ear with the headline: "POLITICIANS WIPE OWN ASS WITH CONSTITUTION - RECEIVE KEYS TO WHITE HOUSE!" because it might as well now ...
Treason trials now, we can't, we won't, how could we be damned
Dick Cheney needs to be in solitary ASAP and the Bush/CIA cleansed of every single person that knew ,saw or did TORTURE starting Monday.
And who has a copy of the porno torture tapes? Somebody does to CYA.
Just like these guys:
Charles Taylor Jr. , who was tapped by his father (ex-Liberian President Charles Taylor) to command an anti-terrorist unit, was sentenced to 97 years in prison in a landmark torture case that grew out of a U.S. investigation.
Wasn't it all acceptable in the Liberian struggles against terrorism?
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/255/story/59379.html
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
that our shit does indeed stink, just like everybody else's.
We can't continue going after people for the sand in their eyes, when we continue ignoring the industrial grade stainless steel beam firmly planted in our own retinas.
There is no other legitimate position to take. But legitimacy has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with our government.
Power is power. That's why the current government wants to move forward and never look back. There is no way the Obama administration will relinquish any of the power the Bush administration has gained for it.
[Deleted. Please don't blogwhore. You are welcome to link to a post on your site when it pertains to the post upon which you are commenting, or in Open Threads-Sitemonitor]
The United States has been pissing all over international law ever since it helped form the United Nations. So, that the U.S. is pissing over the Convention against Torture or other international law conventions should not be a surprise, but, rather, consistent with past (Bush) and present (Obama) administration practices.
The USA has a definite double-standard when it comes to following international law itself and then trying to point fingers at other nations for their violation of international law/conventions/treaties.
The latest chapter of the U.S. not adhering to international law is not new by any stretch of the definition.
I thought "following orders" as a defence was quashed by the Nuremburg Trials?
From: Glenn Greenwald: The Significance of Obama's Decision to Release the Torture Memos
While agreeing that Obama's decision not to prosecute CIA personnel who followed orders is totally wrong, Greenwald however states:
Not since JFK fired Allen Dulles as Director of the CIA for his involvement in Operation Northwoods has an American president stood up to the American Intelligence Community in so strong a move as releasing these memos.
Several commentators have noted that having released these memos the Obama administration will be more easily compelled to release even more incriminating evidence.
From: Reuters: Spanish judge keeps Guantanamo probe alive
Prosecutions could soon begin in Spain.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
I'd given up hope on this when the Spanish AG refused to prosecute.
Who knows, with a judicial lottery system maybe we'll get lucky and win the jackpot.
Did you write your congressional representatives?
Did you write a letter to your editor?
Did you write to the President at whitehouse.gov?
I did all of this.
Just WHAT did you do?
or support organizations like the ACLU and Media Matters, the anti-rightwing propoganda tool of the Progressive Community.
As a card carrying member of the AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTY UNION which brought a demand under the freedom of information act for these memos, just what part of holding our country to the principles espoused in the constitution do you find as propaganda or is your post propaganda?
that other than write, if you don't want to, is that you can support the ACLU or Media Matters, media matters is the "internet tool" that progressives can use to counteract conservative misinformation. I suppose you know that.
It is a useful, internet based site, that welcomes donations for membership, just like the ACLU. I am a member of both!
Cool
Peace
Terry
I think chicano2nd is saying that Media Matters is a tool of the Progressive Community to counter "rightwing propoganda."
I think you two are on the same side.
Edit: Nevermind, he/she cleared it up already.
I'm not going to say a word about semantics, connotation, or punctuation, but I also had to read it twice.
Peace. (I'm funnin' ya.)
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
sometimes its excitement. Sometimes its how people take things initially.
For damn sure, I am a far cry from perfect!
Peace too!
Congress, the WH, and the DOJ I've written to a number of times since Jan 21st on this issue. Working on an open letter to Holder for letters to the editor at local paper.
...if he continues to insist on no prosecutions for this CRIME he should be IMPEACHED for obstruction of justice or something.
If he refuses to investigate and where appropriate prosecute he himself will be guilty under both domestic and international law of facilitating torture.
He really has no choice but to uphold the laws he swore to protect when he took the oath of office.
Care to provide a link to back up that statement?
I will give you a clue though:
It is the same thing as helping a bank robber hide out from the cops.
What law do you think that is?
So you can't back up your statement. Okay
No, I'll not go running through legal books for your ignorant lazy butt. Clear?
You've got a connection, you've a browser, use your own time to go look it up.
I'll not spend precious moments of my life searching for and providing yet more links (out of the thousands I've already provided on various sites over the last 8 years for lazy people like you) just so you can try to play little word games and play the legal scholar.
I said it, you want to disprove it do it yourself.
Not really. You make a statement that Obama is complacent in the Bush administrations torture policies, yet you won't back it up with a link. Sounds like your talking out the side of your face. So tell me, how can we take you seriously. Hmmmm?
Failure to investigate and prosecute IS complacancy.
Fine, show me a link to the rule of law.
That's all I'm asking.
Torture Convention, Art. 4. Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law. The same shall apply to an attempt to commit torture and to an act by any person which constitutes complicity or participation in torture.
http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html
example:
FBI officials and medical personnel have been aware of CIA and military interrogators who have engaged in torture. Some were complicit.
Thank you, now was that so hard?
It was as usual a waste of my time for something you could have easily done for yourself if you weren't so lazy.
Well, sorry to put you out there, Chief, I hope you don't let it ruin your day.
I certainly found it entertaining.
While we are at it here is some more for you to chew on, just so you don't have to go putting yourself out by looking it up:
Convention Against Torture -- (signed by Reagan in 1988, ratified in 1994 by Senate):
Each State Party shall ensure that all acts of torture are offences under its criminal law (Article 4) . . . . The State Party in territory under whose jurisdiction a person alleged to have committed any offence referred to in article 4 is found, shall in the cases contemplated in article 5, if it does not extradite him, submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution.
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture. . . . An order from a superior officer or a public authority may not be invoked as a justification of torture.
Geneva Conventions, Article 146:
Each High Contracting Party shall be under the obligation to search for persons alleged to have committed, or to have ordered to be committed, such grave breaches, and shall bring such persons, regardless of their nationality, before its own courts.
Charter of the International Tribunal at Nuremberg, Article 8:
The fact that the Defendant acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior shall not free him from responsibility, but may be considered in mitigation of punishment if the Tribunal determines that justice so requires.
U.S. Constitution, Article VI:
[A]ll Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land.
What? All that and no links?
Just kidding, Just kidding
Funny funny, I like you already. ;)
What's not to like. Peace.
The word is "complicit".
Given that you can't spell (or use a spell checker) how exactly am I supposed to take you seriously?
And yes, failure to prosecute for war crimes makes the official in charge of doing so complicit in those crimes.
Go.
Look.
It.
Up.
Yourself.
Thanks for the correction. But seriously show me a link. You put it out there, back it up.
I'll give you a hint: It's title is Top UN Torture Investigator: Decision Not to Proscecute Violates International Law.
You might also want to Google "Accessory After the Fact"
Corruption favors the wealthy.
So, hyperlink it, Fiver
It's the body of this topic genius.
Sat, 04/18/2009 - 12:36 — Symes
________________________________
If he refuses to investigate and where appropriate prosecute he himself will be guilty under both domestic and international law of facilitating torture.
Show me a link where it says somewhere in the constitution, or the bill of rights, or U.S.code of laws, both federal and state or any court decision, supporting your statement and I'll believe you, honestly, I swear I will.
First entry.
As we already told you.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Great, appreciate it, thanks, buddy.
Have a nice day.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Hey Fiver, You seem a like a good sport, take care.
Are you sure you want to continue with this?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Hows this?
Good enough?
Corruption favors the wealthy.
BWAAAAAAAAHHHH! lol
The law that says international treaties are the HIGHEST law of the land.
To release the memos is a good first step in our national process of dealing with the unspeakable.
Not to prosecute what followed from the memos fails to enforce our own statutes and fails to meet obligations under treaty. The laws state that there are no acceptable excuses for torture.But most importantly, not to prosecute creates a horrific precedent. If these cases don't merit prosecution, then there are almost no human behaviors that do.
When I coached sports, I would tell my players that if the ref didn't call it, it was a part of the game. I fear for our presidency and out nation, if torture is now apart of the game. If that isn't criminal then nothing much else is either. Not to act makes all of our laws useless.
I assume that nothing should be prosecuted in the US. You could set it in a law case.
"You killed a guy."
"Well, killing is hardly something we as Americans prosecute for any longer."
"You're right, case dismissed!"
'The devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th, the New World Order was born on Sept 11th.' - Immortal Technique
Despite the president's declaration to protect the actual torturers, if congress could play a roll. What would stop congress (other than their spinelessness) from holding investigations/hearings?
Yeah, I know it won't happen.
Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer, Jay Rockefeller, Jane Harmon, and all the other Dems complicit in the "Bush Administration" crimes.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
This is why it will fall on the shoulders of the international community to investigate and prosecute everyone involved as well as anyone attempting to obstruct the course of justice.
I see the possibility of economic sanctions being levied against the US from the EU and other UN nations.
I also see the possibility here of the US losing it's veto power at the UN Assembly and being removed from UN Security council.
I don't see it. Bolton might just blow a few of the top floors off the U.N.. We know he wants to.
(He could use an airplane. Crazy bastard.)
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Yep.These people knew a lot more than they're letting on.
"To me, truth is not some vague, foggy notion. Truth is real. And,
at the same time, unreal. Fiction and fact and everything in between,
plus some things I can't remember, all rolled into one big "thing."
This is truth, to me. "
-Jack Handy
But shhh, we dont wanna tell ya what.
We wont tell you what it has to do with those events 8 years ago.
We wont tell you what other players in banking and business and media were involved.
We are just gonna hope it all goes away.
'The devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th, the New World Order was born on Sept 11th.' - Immortal Technique
Good news Mr. Obama, now YOU are known to the world as a criminal, just as EVERY OTHER PRESIDENT FROM NOW UNTIL THE END OF DAYS.
I am now removing my Obama sticker from my car. What a fucking joke.
"Decision Not to Prosecute Violates International Law"
Damn straight it does! And I told that bum Leahy that back when he first talked about his "get the torturers out of jail free commission".
the international community would hold the US responsible for its use of torture since apparently no one in the US will. I get the fact that Obama does not want to prosecute because that means that an ex-President, an ex-Vice President, a lot of law makers (both dems and repubs), and people at the CIA and in the military would be prosecuted and found guilty of either actual torture, aiding and abetting, or being complicit. Furthermore, even our current President and Vice President could possibly be found complicit of the crime by any investigation (both served in congress during the past 8 years). So, I gather that Obama is just covering his own ass and those that helped in him into power by not prosecuting.
But, I think it's a travesty that no one in the US is willing to uphold the LAW! Torture is wrong and should be prosecuted vehemently, not just because it is against our laws but because it is antithetical to the the core principles of the US.
On a last note...whatever happened to this whole idea that no person is above the law? Did it ever truly exist?
Edit: I think the main issue is that Obama knows that people on both sides of the aisle were complicit in this situation. If he actually prosecuted people, almost every big name in both parties that held office in the past 8 years would have their careers ended because of this. Neither party is clean on this issue. They all had a role in creating an environment that allowed and approved of torture.
Not a whitewash of the Bush administration's blood-soaked evil! There's no justice, there's just us.
its as plain as the nose on your face ! and was so dureing obamas time in the senate and later after he was elected that he was going along for the ride with palosi and ried on not holding bush responcible for these crimes , how anyone could not have seen it is beyond me, thiers only justice in this country for the little guys hanging justice and thats all , you get jail time politicians get off , both partys are just clones of each other, and one hand washes the others ass!
I agree. Time and time again, Obama had said that he intended on bringing the two sides of America together and so he does not want to make any bold moves that will rock the boat. Personally, I think this is cowardly.
This is not a political issue, this is about justice. There is no compromise, it is either just or not. And I doubt this will even achieve the superficial goal of bringing the country - it will just infuriate all the people that want torture abolished as well as all the people that demand more torture.
President Obama knows that there is a large pack of attack dogs waiting on the Right to accuse him of "partisan witch-hunting" if he appears to initiate any kind of prosecution or investigation. Yet he released the damning memos, without any further action. Could it be that he is waiting to be pressured into taking action, to pull the wings off the partisanship argument? If this is how it develops, won't it be fun and ironic, watching the likes of Cheney and Rove being lassoed by shrewd maneuvering?
While I see how if this scenario plays out as you say there would be a certain poetic justice to it all. But at this point in time, I only care about plain old regular justice.
And really, is "shrewd maneuvering" any less wrong now that a Democrat is employing it?
Hmm.. that is a good observation. Maybe he is letting the international community do the dirty work and he knows the rightwing will skewer him if he tries to seek justice.
I really think that Obama's pledge is to keep the CIA from internal revolt. The international actions may supersede and force the DOJs hand regardless. Several congressional activities are occuring very soon, and with enough subpoena and immunity, the truth will convict the major perps. Play your cards very closely to your vest. Be patient my little grasshopper.
Ref:
Jurist
[JURIST] US President Barack Obama on Thursday asserted his intention [statement] not to investigate individuals who used or authorized enhanced interrogation techniques the same day the Department of Justice (DOJ) [official website] released memos [JURIST report] outlining CIA use of these techniques. The president urged the country to look forward, rather than to the past, saying:
We have been through a dark and painful chapter in our history. But at a time of great challenges and disturbing disunity, nothing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past. Our national greatness is embedded in America’s ability to right its course in concert with our core values, and to move forward with confidence. That is why we must resist the forces that divide us, and instead come together on behalf of our common future.
Obama's statement was met with criticism from several civil liberties and human rights groups. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) [advocacy website] called for an investigation [press release], saying, "When crimes have been committed, the American legal system demands accountability." Human Rights Watch (HRW) [advocacy website] also urged the administration to investigate those who authorized torture [press release]. The Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR) [advocacy website] expressed "deepest disappointments" [press release] in the administration's decision. The chairmen of both the Senate Judiciary Committee and the House Judiciary Committee [official websites] released statements [Senate statement; House statement] urging the administration to investigate those who authorized enhanced interrogation techniques.
Last week, House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers, Jr. (D-MI) released a final version of a report [JURIST report] calling on Attorney General Eric Holder to appoint a special prosecutor to determine whether any criminal laws were violated. In March, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D-VT) also called for an investigation [JURIST report] into Bush administration policies through the formation of a "truth commission."
One thing about criminal governments and when they are hiding things or covering up bad stuff.
They tend to get very nasty with critics and dissenters, we could see worse behaviour from the Obama gov, than we saw targeted against domestic dissent under Bushco.
There is that FEC ruling that attempts to make political documentaries illegal in breach of the 1st, with a five year sentence if they fall foul.
http://www.rcfp.org/newsitems/index.php?i=10059
Am I wrong in assuming that Obama has no actual say in the decision on whether or not to prosecute? He is the president, and as such the head of the executive branch, not the judiciary. Under the separation of powers in the US, it is not up to him to decide whether or not the toturers will be prosecuted. Correct?
... through the Dept. of Justice, prosecutes.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
And leather, ball gags and electrodes.
The almighty USA , biggest hypocrite on planet earth , is above the law don't you know that ? Ah yes , America the beautiful .
AP DIDN'T TRANSLATE ALL OF WHAT MANFRED NOWAK SAID...LEAVES OUT PUNISHING INDIVIDUAL TORTURERS AS WELL AS THOSE IN THE HEIRARCHY WHO ORDERED THE TORTURE
FROM YESTERDAY'S BERLINER ZEITUNG:
Wien - Der UN-Sonderberichterstatter für Folter, Manfred Nowak, hat den USA vorgeworfen, gegen das Völkerrecht zu verstoßen, sollten sie Folterer aus den Reihen des Geheimdienstes CIA nicht bestrafen. Vienna - The UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Manfred Nowak, has accused the United States of violating international law by not punishing torturers from the ranks of the secret CIA.
Im Völkervertragsrecht stehe klar, dass sich die Staaten verpflichten, Folterer strafrechtlich zu verfolgen, sagte Nowak in einem am Samstag veröffentlichten Interview der österreichischen Zeitung «Der Standard». The international treaty law is clear that countries undertake to prosecute torturers, Nowak said in an interview published on Saturday by the Austrian newspaper "Der Standard". US-Präsident Barack Obama hatte am Donnerstag erklärt, er wolle Mitarbeiter des US- Geheimdienstes CIA nicht für Folterverhöre von mutmaßlichen Terroristen vor Gericht zur Verantwortung ziehen. U.S. President Barack Obama on Thursday had said that he would not prosecute employees of the U.S. secret service CIA for their torture interrogations of suspected terrorists.
Das Wichtigste sei jetzt eine umfassende Untersuchung durch eine unabhängige Instanz, sagte Nowak. The most important thing is now a full investigation by an independent body, said Nowak. «Es ist ganz wichtig, dass die Opfer eine Entschädigung bekommen.» Dann gebe es noch die strafrechtliche Ebene. "It is very important that victims receive compensation." Then there was still the criminal level of the cases to pursue. Hier müsse man man sich anschauen, «gegen welche Individuen es klare Beweise gibt. Here we must look into and move "against individuals in which there is clear evidence. Das können einzelne Folterer sein oder auch jene in der Befehlshierarchie, die das angeordnet haben.» The individual torturers must be pursued as well as those in the command hierarchy, who have ordered the torture. "
as the latest in a long line of Presidents who are WAR CRIMINIALS!
Torture, immigration, illegal aliens and the ban on assault weapons, I think are the beginning of a long line of disappointments to come out of the Obama Administration. Yup, I think the honeymoon's over. I'm just relieved that Darth and Chimpy are out of White House and Republicans are no longer the majority. Now it's the Dems turn to mess things up, huh? As long as those who ordered torture be carried out, and those did the deed are running free and not held accountable, the stigma will forever be a dark cloud hanging over the United States. To add to this, what I think is a miscarriage of justice, Cheney, Bush, Rice, Rove and Rumsfeldt all are collecting cushy little pensions that come out of the Peoples pockets while they laugh all the way to bank.
Government + the Federal Reserve = organized crime
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