Army Billing Vets For Damaged Equipment
By Logan Murphy Wednesday Jul 25, 2007 5:03pmVia WCBStv:
Servicemen and women who made huge sacrifices fighting in the war and now paying yet another price, even after coming home.
One soldier in particular is currently battling against a new "debt of service."
Brian Rodriguez is a fighter, an honorably discharged soldier who'd been deployed in Iraq.
"I was a combat engineer," Rodriguez said. "We deal with land mines, explosives."
He fought for his nation, only to return to his homeland and wage a fresh battle.
Former Army Specialist Rodriguez started getting bills for $700 for lost or damaged government property this summer. Although he was discharged some four years ago, bills recently arrived demanding payment, but giving no details on what or why -- nor do they offer a way to dispute the charges.
"For doing my job you're going to bill me?" Rodriguez said. Read more...
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were running out of time
http://youtube.com/watch?v=fCutvXccFlA
the serfdomship society part 28532752
This is incredible. In a war where how many billions of dollars instantly "disappeared". Or Halliburton literally torching equipment to receive more funds? This should be on every news channel.
Reminds me a little of the "good-ole days" where the mines required the miners to buy their own dynamite which of course they had to buy from the company store---"Sold my soul to the company store." This is probably another bureaucratic snafu but it would be right in keeping with the raw-deal capitalism so loved my this misadministration and its fellow-travelers.
If this is the case, can we send George a bill for the damage to the constitution?
So, where is all the money for the war being spent??? I would like to believe that the soldiers come first. This story is beyond pathetic! Who came up with this dumb ass idea to bill a soldier
for equipment especially during combat? Never ever heard of something so stupid.
Are you surprised? After all, we are Capitalists, are we not?
This is so sad and disgraceful. However, should we be surprised? These soldiers are in really bad shape (coming back to find jobs gone, divorces are rampant) yet this Administration could care less. Don't even get me started on the ones who are seriously maimed and in tough shape or the 25,000 normal ones who are now being diagnosed with "personality disorders."
This is important stuff as is the lying be these clowns like Gonzalez--yet, was it discussed in depth on "hardball"? O/T, my neighbor called and he was ripping because Wolfie and especially, Tweety were letting Tony Snowjob lie his ass off defending his bosses. Also, Tweety's drawers were in a big wedge over the Clinton/Obama spat (which is a creation of Matthews and his cohorts at NBC.
I asked him why he watched and he said no more. Can anybody tell me what Tweety's problem is? Why so much hatred?
With everything else percolating in DC he has to rail against Obama and Clinton. From what my friend said, naturally, Tweety gave Snowjob a pass and flattered him too.
I don't recall the name of the book. But this account is strikingly similar to one I once read of a German soldier, who was denied leave home from the Eastern Front because he'd lost his canteen (or some such piece of equipment). Got chewed out for it, too, and, as I said, denied a visit home. That's almost as bad as being hounded by a collection agency four years after being honorably discharged.
I hope someone in congress will follow the money. Who exactly would stand to reap how much profit should this GI pay up?
Is Haliburton spelled with one or two l's
They have to get the billions any way they can. Little steps.
Way to support the troops.
Doesn't this sound like those tales of executed Chinese dissident survivors being billed for the bullets?
SNAFU comes to mind... Situation Normal...All F-(ouled) Up.
FUCKING UNBELIEVEABLE !!!
this administration (bush/cheney/rove) is the lowest scum ever, to bill the very brave troops that are fighting in this illegal war for a fucking fascist president.
if this is going to happen, we should bill bush/cheney/rove and the entire bush administration for all the war costs, indictments and process for gop crimes. let them pay for their outrageous deception to get us into this war.
also, let's bill halliburton for all those bid awards they are overcharging us for.
Ok, bill the the soldiers for lost equipment after they get out. We'll bill Bush for loss of soldiers after he gets out!
I was typing so fast it should read "this is important stuff--as is the lying by these clowns. like Gonzalez. Sorry--my bad.
w.smith @ 12:
Quiet. don't give the Repugs any ideas.
Endsville @ 3:
What, we have a news channel in America? what channel is that so I can start watching...becuase I've seen all the channels that call themselves news and they don't deserve the title.
Insult to injury...no good deed goes unpunished??? The mind boggles at this latest.... If I was a vet in that particular boat?
I'd probably mark the mail return to sender with a short note to the originator of said extortion attempt...Two words and two words only would be my reply.. Starts with an F and ends in a U!
I don't think anyone needs a mensa type brain to figure it out...
Jebus, what next? Soldiers lose combat pay and start paying the government for the 'priviledge' of shipping off to Iraq to die???
SHIT, I should not have written that... Probably some rightwing bean counter ratfuck moron trying to figure out how to make kind of scam work right now....Even as I type these words.....JD
How about gas for the jeeps?
Wouldn't it be better for all of us to find out WHY the charge was made BEFORE we came to a conclusion as to WHO the idiot(s) is/are in this case?
Congress passed this recover law ove a decade ago and -guess who-sign it into law. Now there are very good reasons for charging a soldier for something. If a soldier wrecked a vehicle and was found negligent, by law he SHOULD have to pay for that repair.
Since the soldier here in question has no idea why he is being charged and the government doesn't seem cooperative, by what leap of logic do any of us here come to a conclusion of any kind?
Captain Kangaroo @ 19:
I mean did this guy pitch in his fair share. Or maybe it was money for his uniform?
and I'm sorry, the swift-boat-assholes-for-lies were saying what about John Kerry again?
Miller Smith @ 20:
And maybe he hasn't paid his airfare to and from Iraq. At $700 he was getting a good deal so why should he complain. I'm sure if they would have just told him that it was for his airfare he would have understood.
Internet fees while in the green zone.
His share of the electric bill?
Is it any wonder we are referred to as The Great Satan or Raving Lunatics by the rest of the World at this point?
Captain Kangaroo @ 21:
I say we start charging these soldiers for the all expense paid trip to Iraq...it's got to be worth several $1000 just for the plane ride over, not to mention the top living accommodations they have, as a matter of fact did the soldiers pay for the meals Caci didn't serve them? I think we can balance the national debt on the backs of our soldiers...so let's go American...show your troops how much you love them!
Did he overnight in Germany on the way home? We have to have the facts before we can have an opinion.
Cab ride from the airport?
Oh right, bill the bario mexican. How much does Lt. Bond owe, (Senator Kit Bond's boy)? He was over there.
And BTW, with this logic, It would seem that John McCain owes a great big bill for losing his airplane decades ago! Now, with compounded interest at the republican rate, fees, fines and late charges....um....yeah.....should be equal to the national debt!
PAY UP YOU STUPID BASTARD!
Captain Kangaroo @ 25:
The Navy pays Cheneys Utility Bills. Remember that?
I suppose they payed for his bunker he had deepened and strengthened underneath the VIP Manison back in 01 and 02 also.
Did he dring the Real Thing instead of the generic?
Captain Kangaroo @ 28:
the facts are that Republicans hate American and do not support our soldiers...I'm not saying Dems are much better but at least they don't go around saying "We AND ONLY WE support the troops", no asshole you don't, you just have a clever bumper sticker.
I keep wondering how this administration could show themselves to be any more evil than what we've already seen.
This is freaking amazing.. I mean they'll go to any lengths to earn a buck for the rich elite who support them.
wow, just wow.
The Bush(league) Administration musta read Sun Tzu's Art of War.
Ol' Sunny boy said "Make war pay for war."
This is sick!!!
This needs to posted on recruiting office doors. In LARGE PRINT.
You've got to be kidding me..
http://www.uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=13594
"Another young Halliburton worker named James Logsdon told me about the burn pits. Burn pits are large dumps near military stations where they would burn equipment, trucks, trash, etc. If they ordered the wrong item, they'd throw it in the burn pit. If a tire blew on a piece of equipment, they'd throw the whole thing into the burn pit. They burn pits had so much equipment, they even gave them a nickname -- "Home Depot.""
They damn well better not be charging these soldiers for ANYTHING!!!
This reminds me of the COMPANY STORE of the pre labor union era when mine workers were charged for the tools they used, the tools they broke, the food they ate (ok, that seems fair) and everything the COMPANY could charge them for.
Sixteen Tons
Salmineo @ 30:
Who paid for McCain's shopping trip to Baghdad. I'm sure it was not McCain.
these bastards make me sick. Where the hell is the missing BILLIONS of out taxpayers money they "lost" in Iraq??? why don't they make Halliburtion pay for war equipment? where do they get off on charging our soliders for damaged war equipment??? did they do this in WWII??? I hate Bush put that in your pipe and smoke it repugs.
LongTooth @ 9:
2
"Since the soldier here in question has no idea why he is being charged and the government doesn’t seem cooperative, by what leap of logic do any of us here come to a conclusion of any kind"?
Maybe- just maybe- the answer lies in the fact that four years have passed, and the soldier in question has no idea why he is being charged, and the government doesn’t seem cooperative.
That is, if a person has concluded that something stinks to high heaven.
Jo @ 42:
We are letting our military off easy!
In China, the families of condemned prisoners are charge for the cost of the bullets used in the execution.
BJ @ 34:
At this rate I think we'll be spewing pea soup vomit if we're not careful. Of course they'll charge us for that also.
I thought we were paying for all of the damage in Iraq, not the actual troops. Wait until the wounded troops get their medical bills.
Captain Kangaroo @ 40:
Bill Bush for the whole damn war! His father for pulling out quick enough, and his mother for not smashing his head against a rock when she squated him out. (ok...is that over the top? Ask a dead soldiers mother).
This is like the wounded being billed for food served them while in the hospital, for wounds gotten in combat. This administration is disgusting.
Republicans support the troops, my ass.
http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/11/Worldandnation/Wounded_billed_for_ho.s...
http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=16858&archive=true
myiq2xu @ 35:
There is no blow too low for this bunch
Bush Co won't have to fork out ONE GOD DAMN DIME for this wreck of a quagmire.
The Taxpayers present and future are stuck with the debt.
Obviously the Buck does not stop with Bush. Its passed on to the poorest soldier. Common Capitalist practice. The rich must stay rich and the poor must stay poor.
My God my head is SPINNING IN PISSEDOFFEDNESS over this!
I'm snaping.....I'm friggen snapping!
Remember, this is the government of rotten bastards. How about billing Paul Bremer for the "lost" $9 billion.
"...and damaging police equipment."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwP06gsw6k8
Mr. Smith;
I think the part about the government not indicating what the billing relates too, or as you say 'doesn't seem cooperative' is pretty telling... And the main reason why I'm bitching about it. If they have a ligitimate reason for this charge, I know damned well that would be specified. The military may be inefficient in some ways, (at the top using last wars satategies in todays clusterfucks) but they damned sure like to make certain all the i's are dotted and t's crossed. If this former soldier did something to a piece of equipment outside the boundaries of normal usage and the military has hard evidence proving this, then they needed to specify that, especially four years later...
how the hell is anyone suppose to know what they are paying for?
Hell, buddy, under that kind of scenario the navy might trump up some charge against me too..with no evidence and nothing but a please remit pricetag.... And I've been out over twenty years now and my ship no longer even exists...(hacked up and sold for scrap metal last I heard).. Any vet could fall under the same vague bullshit... Jesus Miller, did you know that technically when you sign that piece of paper, you are actually saying, you agree to being a piece of government property yourself for the length of your enlistment? Do you know what that actually means?? That's why you got no goddamned rights as civilians understand them while serving... That's why service members fall under the UCMJ....It's the only legal structure to protect the interests of the military and the members thereof...
Are we to expect the government/military to start in on the amputees and charge them for destruction of government property??? (I.E. loss of their limbs?) That's the sort of extreme bullshit indicated that this can lead to. Think not? Then explain to me how and why the military can, without a shred of evidence, or explanation of any kind, can just come back to a vet years later and start asking for money for nebulous charges of damaged equipment without any evidence to back up the charge??? What the fuck is that all about??? That ten year old law may or may not be a good one but I damned sure know the pols who bought into it back then were not expecting it to be used in this manner..... I just don't see this B.S. as being part of the big plan, regardless of who was president signing it into law...JD
If we can only get halliburton to subcontract the debt collection from the enemy we could then pass along their expenses to our soldiers as well. Do you know what our soldiers are doing to enemy bullets? The fuck them up! Those bullets cant be reused and the enemy would like to be compensated. And if the US government could tax these subcontracted credit collections we might be rolling in money.
VT Independent @ 53:
These bastards are turning bastardly faster than our system can get them out of office! What can we do? What precedent can we turn too?
I'm....I'm....friggen hearing voices....seeing dead patriots pass before my eyes.....Washington.....John Paul Jones.....Sargent York.....Dan Daily.....Ira Hays.....Walter Brennen.....
They beckon action.....[deleted - not so much]
This is SO familiar. They did this to me, 4 years ago. No, I am not a vet. The govt. did this to me then, and they obviously didn't steal enough money, so they have to go after others. Don't get me wrong -- they surely shouldn't do this to vets -- but they shouldn't do it to ANYONE.
I pay my taxes every year. Yet, in 2003, suddenly, they discovered that I didn't file "correctly" for 4 years -- way back to 1999. And, with the penalties and interest they tacked on, each year was between $800 and $3000. Meaning about $10,000 of "back taxes" I owe. So, I told them when I refiled, I would file as "Head of Household," which I didn't do for 3 of the 4 years I originally filed. "Oh no!" they said. "You can't do that -- the statute of limitation is 2 years!" Meaning, THEY can demand back taxes for ANY year, but when refiling, YOU can't use all the laws for your taxes in that year. What a scam!
below is the link that will be of assistance...or just query report of survey army in google
Persons entrusted with Government property are responsible for its proper use, care, custody, and safekeeping. AR 735-5, Policies and Procedures for Property Accountability, prescribes the accounting procedures when Army property is lost, damaged, or destroyed other than by fair wear and tear. It provides methods to obtain relief from property responsibility and accountability, and prescribes Army policy on such losses and financial liability.
Briefly, . . .
Commanders may initiate a report of survey whenever government property is lost or damaged. The appointing authority appoints a report of survey officer who is a disinterested officer or NCO (E-7 or above) to investigate the facts surrounding the loss. Upon completion of the investigation, the survey officer submits his findings and recommendations. If the survey officer recommends holding a military member or civilian employee liable for any amount of loss, the individual (respondent) has the right to examine the report of investigation and submit a rebuttal statement within 7 calendar days (more time allotted for a rebuttal if respondent is unavailable). A legal assistance attorney often assists the respondent prepare a rebuttal.
Army personnel are not absolute insurers of the Government property entrusted to them. Instead, their liability for loss or damage arises from their negligent or wrongful conduct regarding the property in their custody or use. The Report of Survey system is the most common way to administratively determine an individual's liability for damaged or lost property. When Army property is lost by causes other than fair wear and tear, relief from property responsibility can be obtained only under AR 735-5 procedures. (See AR 735-5, para 12-1c.) A DA Form 4697, Report of Survey, is often used to account for lost or damaged property and establish financial liability, if any.
If an Army member, military or civilian, loses Goverment property and that individual's unit commander or supervisor thinks the loss resulted from neglect or misconduct, the commander or supervisor may prepare a statement of charges (DD Form 362, Statement of Charges for Government Property Lost, Damaged, or Destroyed) and present it to the individual. Any individual who responsible for lost or damaged property may prepare a statement of charges listing the names of others who were responsible for the loss or damage. A statement of charges is used only if liability is admitted, and the charge does not exceed the monthly basic pay of the person being charged. By signing a statement of charges, individuals authorize the colection of the amount of the charge from their pay. Sometimes, instead of a Statement of Charges, a Cash Collection Voucher (DD Form 1131) is used when the responsible individual volunteers to pay the value of the loss.
Read about the Army Report of Survey system, policy, and procedures in AR 735-5.
Survey officers may find DA Pamphlet 735-5, Survey Officer's Guide, informative, especially when conducting a report of survey investigation the first time.
In addition, present and former Army personnel may appeal a finding of financial liability on a report of survey to the Army Board for Correction of Military Records.
Appealing a finding of liability. Respondents have at least two chances to appeal a finding of liability. First, upon notification of liability by the approving authority, the respondent may submit a request for reconsideration within 30 calendar days. If the approving authority denies reconsideration, he or she must forward the request for reconsideration to the appeal authority, the next higher commander above the approving authority. The appeal authority then considers the appeal.
Legal Assistance personnel often advise individuals against whom report of survey officers recommend financial liability prepare statements, or appeal the liability decision, or apply for remission of indebtedness.
https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/JAGCNETInternet/Homepages/AC/Legal%20Assist...
Shell5960w @ 58:
I'm sorry for your loss, but this is not the IRS....its the the Department of Defense. IMO, they don't have the right to bill citizens for anything....ever. (see 4th amendment)
Uh oh word wrap bug. Better get your server guys on it.
#59
The Extended Link is the culprit most likely.
Edit #59 and remove the link.
This will sure help the recruitment efforts. So they'll have to up the reenlistment bonuses, increase pay, and further lower entry standards.
Impeach Bush!
Bush supports the troops. That's why he takes Discover and AMEX.
IMPEACH.
It's the republican way. Bush's new "better" Army. The rancid, putrid corruption of the republican party seeps into every crevice of our society. It goes after the weakest most vulnerable people, and in such a way as it leaves no way to dispute what their lies claim.
The entire, let me repeat, THE ENTIRE REPUBLICAN PARTY is thoroughly, disgustingly, corrupted, through and through.
This makes me want to vomit. With all of the waste and pork doled out to contractors how dare the government screw over its soldiers like that. Anybody know where one of those pallets of cash is? I think one needs to be set aside for the troops.
I'm so pissed off about this!
When are W and Cheney gonna pony up?
dadams @ 13:
How about billing the Bush & Cheney families for all this shit. They are nothing more than war profiteers & criminals to begin with. Now wouldn't that be sweet.
What can I say that hasn't already been said? The Army can't explain to him why he owes $700. They can't explain why this hasn't ever come up before.
It stinks to high heaven. The Army should be required to do their homework when billing people or suck it down. If a REAL BUSINESS operated in this fashion they'd be sued out of existence after their first year. Can you imagine getting bills from your former employer for . . . nothing in particular? What would you do? You'd contest it in court, right?
About 8 months after I got out of the Army I got a bill for over a grand too. And just like the article says, there's no way to dispute it. I didn't pay it right away because I couldn't; they got very nasty about it and ended up taking my tax return. You gotta love Uncle Sam...NOT.
Moral of the story:
When you fight for the Empire, you become the Empire's bitch.
Now shut up and pay your bill!
Freedom isn't free!
This is not the first time. Remember about a year or more ago a soldier was wounded in Iraq. He threw himself in front of a IED to protect his fellows.
Then he was flown to German for emergency surgery to save his life. He leg was damaged and he limped. Well they flew him back to Texas
his home was in New York tho. Then before he was fully re-cuperated the army took two of his pay checks to pay for
the equipment he left in Iraq. How in the hell was the guy supposed to take his equipment to Germany with him?
Since he received stipends for his wife he did not get to eat in the mess hall and he didn't have enough money to buy
food. He contacted Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer and they got him enough money to come home on. And by the way
after all the hoopla the army "forgave" him the rest of the money, but they did not refund the two months pay.
What a bunch of absolute assholes. But that's bushs bunch for you.
'
This is so ridiculous!
repugs' motto: Too bad soliders have only one life to give.
Welcome to the Ownership Society, Specialist Rodriguez. It's the age of privatized military operations, warfare for profit. And you're cutting into the bottom line.
The Armed Forces need a union.
If ever liberal and moderate Americans needed a reason to bullet vote Democratic - this is it. I'm not naive enough to think the Democrats are perfect, but they're certainly better than the Republicans. Protest voting or voting for the person or voting for a third party candidate who seems pure just won't cut it anymore. That's what left the 2000 election close enough so the Scalia court could appoint Dubya. The Republican Party must be so crushed - from dog catcher to President - that it will be forced to reassess itself and either disband or reform.
I'll bet this is not reported on Faux News. Actually, I'll bet the MSM ignores it too. Too complicated for them to understand.
Reminds me of the film Brazil, wherein ordinary citizens are billed for their interrogations.
This story is just effng embarrassing. We as a nation just look like total dumbasses. How much do you want to bet there are widows and parents of dead soldiers having to pay for lost or damaged equipment? How much do you want to bet Cheney ( the supreme chickenhawk, the ultimate wuzz) thought it was a great idea?
And by the way, Gonzalez had lost and damaged the justice department, what does he owe. Bush and Cheney have destroyed the constitutions. Are they going to be required to pay for the damage?
The Armed Forces need a union.
Even with this "there is no rock-bottom" administration, I would never think we would be typing those words in the United States of America.
Seriously, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?
Send the bills to Halliburton.
If the Army doesn't know what equipment they are billing for, how do they know the amount due on that which they don't know? As in, "You owe us $700 for something, we're not sure what, so we made a wild ass guess as to the amount." Would you pay such a bill? Would any court in the land order you to pay such a bill? I'd dispute such a bill in writing, registered mail, with the Department of Defense Inspector General asking him to direct the Army to pull their head out of their butt and write off the $700 as a combat loss of something, they know not what. Kids, not a good time to be in the King's army.
Oh, yes, also something in the Constitution about not being able to take your property (money) without due process. A BS bill is not due process. Tell collection company to screw off -- they cannot put adverse comment in your credit reports if you write them and tell them, in writing sent certified mail with return receipt, that the bill is in dispute (must be within 30 days of their billing to you). Don't take their phone calls -- tell them to put it in writing. They love to yell and scare people on the phone. Just don't take their calls. The government then has the option to sue you, but almost never happens -- they make their money from intimidation by the collection agencies. If they were to sue, no court would make you pay unless they could identify specifics as to equipment and costs and why the service member was responsible for equipment that was properly a combat loss. Plus, government is unlikely to sue because they don't want the adverse PR when Johnny comes marching home to the local courthouse where the government then tries to rob him. God, every soldier should be issued a rifle and a lawyer.
Ahhh, that would be a rifle to fight the enemy, and a lawyer to fight the government.
Send the bill to Halliburton....
ScrewNaziBush @ 82:
Great minds think alike...
I heard they are gonna try to recover the costs of Tillmans 3 bullets as well!
LibertyLover @ 86:
Oh hell no! don't you understand how their "no-bid" contract works? They submit their expenses to our government and are paid "cost-plus." So for every dollar in "cost" they get paid that "cost" plus a guaranteed X% profit. I'm guessing that X = 50.
So if we send Halliburton the bill, they end up making even more money!
I just dreamed that Bill Kristol was mugged for $700.
The mugger was never caught.
mistletoe @ 6:
DAMN!!! That bites the big one!! Sounds like turdblossom to me.
"What's the frequency Kenneth?"
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