MN Bridge Collapse - "Public Anger Will Follow Our Sorrow"
By Logan Murphy Thursday Aug 02, 2007 5:02pm
Via Startribune.com: By Nick Coleman, Star Tribune
The cloud of dust above the Mississippi that rose after the Interstate 35W bridge collapsed Wednesday evening has dissipated. But there are other dark clouds still hanging over Minneapolis and Minnesota.
The cloud of dust above the Mississippi that rose after the Interstate 35W bridge collapsed Wednesday evening has dissipated. But there are other dark clouds still hanging over Minneapolis and Minnesota.The fear of falling is a primal one, along with the fear of being trapped or of drowning.
Minneapolis suffered a perfect storm of nightmares Wednesday evening, as anyone who couldn't sleep last night can tell you. Including the parents who clench their jaws and tighten their hands on the wheel every time they drive a carload of strapped-in kids across a steep chasm or a rushing river. Don't panic, you tell yourself. The people in charge of this know what they are doing. They make sure that the bridges stay standing. And if there were a problem, they would tell us. Wouldn't they?
(Read the rest of this story)
The death bridge was "structurally deficient," we now learn, and had a rating of just 50 percent, the threshold for replacement. But no one appears to have erred on the side of public safety. The errors were all the other way.
Would you drive your kids or let your spouse drive over a bridge that had a sign saying, "CAUTION: Fifty-Percent Bridge Ahead"?
No, you wouldn't. But there wasn't any warning on the Half Chance Bridge. There was nothing that told you that you might be sitting in your over-heated car, bumper to bumper, on a hot summer day, thinking of dinner with your wife or of going to see the Twins game or taking your kids for a walk to Dairy Queen later when, in a rumble and a roar, the world you knew would pancake into the river.
There isn't any bigger metaphor for a society in trouble than a bridge falling, its concrete lanes pointing brokenly at the sky, its crumpled cars pointing down at the deep waters where people disappeared.
Only this isn't a metaphor.
The focus at the moment is on the lives lost and injured and the heroic efforts of rescuers and first-responders - good Samaritans and uniformed public servants. Minnesotans can be proud of themselves, and of their emergency workers who answered the call. But when you have a tragedy on this scale, it isn't just concrete and steel that has failed us.
So far, we are told that it wasn't terrorists or tornados that brought the bridge down. But those assurances are not reassuring.
They are troubling.
If it wasn't an act of God or the hand of hate, and it proves not to be just a lousy accident - a girder mistakenly cut, a train that hit a support - then we are left to conclude that it was worse than any of those things, because it was more mundane and more insidious: This death and destruction was the result of incompetence or indifference.
In a word, it was avoidable.
That means it should never have happened. And that means that public anger will follow our sorrow as sure as night descended on the missing.
For half a dozen years, the motto of state government and particularly that of Gov. Tim Pawlenty has been No New Taxes. It's been popular with a lot of voters and it has mostly prevailed. So much so that Pawlenty vetoed a 5-cent gas tax increase - the first in 20 years - last spring and millions were lost that might have gone to road repair. And yes, it would have fallen even if the gas tax had gone through, because we are years behind a dangerous curve when it comes to the replacement of infrastructure that everyone but wingnuts in coonskin caps agree is one of the basic duties of government.
I'm not just pointing fingers at Pawlenty. The outrage here is not partisan. It is general.
Both political parties have tried to govern on the cheap, and both have dithered and dallied and spent public wealth on stadiums while scrimping on the basics.
How ironic is it that tonight's scheduled groundbreaking for a new Twins ballpark has been postponed? Even the stadium barkers realize it is in poor taste to celebrate the spending of half a billion on ballparks when your bridges are falling down. Perhaps this is a sign of shame. If so, it is welcome. Shame is overdue.
At the federal level, the parsimony is worse, and so is the negligence. A trillion spent in Iraq, while schools crumble, there aren't enough cops on the street and bridges decay while our leaders cross their fingers and ignore the rising chances of disaster.
And now, one has fallen, to our great sorrow, and people died losing a gamble they didn't even know they had taken. They believed someone was guarding the bridge.
We need a new slogan and we needed it yesterday:
"No More Collapses."
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Yeah, yeah, somebody's to blame.
Hannity is already claiming the media is playing this up and over hyping our [failing] infrastructure. Never fear, the reich-wingers always find a way to blame:
a) MSM
b) Clinton
c) liberals
d) all of the above.
I would jump it with my stunt bike.
When NOLA went underwater- I kept hearing the meme that people shouldn't live below sea level or on the coasts...
I have not yet heard that people shouldn't live on other sides of rivers.
Good luck to the folks upriver.
Hannity is the worst Republic whore on the planet.
The truth is, Republics HATE government investment in infrastructure, except in two cases:
1. If it brings home the bacon to their consituent contractors who can kick back to them, ala Stevens in Alaska.
2. Unless it's in Iraq, and Halliburton stock as a result goes through the roof for Viceroy Cheney's retirement fund...
How ironic is it that tonight’s scheduled groundbreaking for a new Twins ballpark has been postponed? Even the stadium barkers realize it is in poor taste to celebrate the spending of half a billion on ballparks when your bridges are falling down. Perhaps this is a sign of shame. If so, it is welcome. Shame is overdue.
Poignant statement.
They got the bridge they deserved, just like they got the Governor they deserved by voting for him. Since most people in a big city like Minneapolis weren't directly affected by the bridge catastrophe, you can bet they'll be paying more attention to pro sports games in town than the next round of budget cuts to infrastructure. Par for the course in modern America.
It's time for a revolution. These criminals in power will never do anything for the American people again if it doesn't involve increasing profits of the elite.
I am angry at all the taxpayer money spent to make it easier for people to drive their cars when it could have been spent on alternative transportation. It seems to me it is subsidizing the auto/oil industries to our detriment as we are now finding out.
Taxes are a good thing in the right hands. The hands of a responsible electorate. The dark years of 2003-2005 are over thank God. Promising to never raise taxes makes as much sense as promising never to mow your lawn to save gas. This is shameful.
You can bet that the pissed-off people of Minnesota won't let this shameful tragedy go quietly into the night. Please...let this serve, finally, as a wake-up call to those that have blindly (and foolishly) embraced the "no new taxes" mantra. This is what happens when you think government can get by on the cheap...when the tax burden is unfairly placed upon the middle class. Clamor...make noise...write letters....VOTE
Rachael Maddow (sp?) had a lot about this on her show yesterday, and I agree with her. This is a result of the Grover Norquist theory of government. Thanks to him and others with their "starve the beast" mantra, this is what we get. What we are seeing is the failure of government.
The answer is simple: we don't need less government, we need better government.
One example: don't set aside billions of dollars for a bridge to an unpopulated island in Alaska; split that money between maintenance on twenty bridges (OR F*CKING LEVEES) that are already here.
One Year Wonder @ 7:
This is so insensitive and ignorant, I can't even form a thought right now.
more then what if they didn't tell you it was unsafe, what if they knew and wanted it to fall anyway...wouldn't it be better to argue that we should privatize our roads when more and more problems like this arise? So since Reagan we have not invested in our own infrastructure, unless it was Missiles or other instruments of death. But roads? no way, we don't have the money for that!!!
as I always say it's just another example of how Republicans want to bring down America and ruin Americans.
One Year Wonder @ 7:
Err!, Minneapolis is pretty much as blue as you can get...... I live there/here. It's the outstate, ex-urban types who vote for the likes of Pawlenty (chosen pawn of the Taxpayers League). Plus, most of us urban types were/are vehemently opposed to the new Twins stadium that was forced upon us on the public dime without referendum. In other words, up yours!
Tommy @ 11:
agreed. You can bet that Tim Pawlenty, Norm Coleman and all the other MN republicans are very nervous.
Besides airbags, future cars may offer parachutes and flotation devices; seeing how starting costly wars seems to be trumping infrastructure repair.
Bollox Ref @ 15:
Thanks for conveying my thoughts. That comment just angered me because he doesn't know shit about MN at all.
They got the bridge they deserved, just like they got the Governor they deserved by voting for him.
Minneapolis residents did not vote for Tim Pawlenty. If it wasn't for Hennepin (MPLS) and Ramsey (St. Paul) counties, we would be almost as red as Utah.
Crumbling infrastructure at home, endless war abroad.
Lordplayer @ 19:
You forget St. Louis County.
Professor Farnsworth @ 13:
I agree, it's so ridiculous to think that the Voters shouldn't have a representative who's trustworthy, but since they voted wrong it's their fault...yeah, right, what about in the national race where we did vote correctly and got the wrong guy anyway, is that the voters fault too? c-mon, smarten up, we need to think before we speak, after all we are not republicans here.
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 22:
I totally agree. Because one votes a certain way, destruction and death are deserved
*not deserved.
I live in Minnesota and Pawlenty HAS tried to raise taxes. He calls them "Fees", like a health "fee" on cigaretts....
Pawlenty's "No New Taxes" shit only applies to his wealth BFF's, not the poor....
All stories about failing infrastructure should feature the crawl "BREAKING NEWS!"
I think we need to brng back a phrase that has long been missing from the American vernacular and those words are: "for the common good." In order for Americans to face the coming inflation and rising interest rates that are just around the corner due to the "global" economy... we need to focus on what is the best for the "common good" of the American people.
moniker @ 26:
Funny. Heh.
Professor Farnsworth @ 21:
My apologies to the intelligent people in St. Louis County. Sorry to leave you out! I actually don't know the numbers specifically of the last election, but you have to admit without the Twin Cities, Minnesota is the South without the accent and with more teeth.
We got the bridge we deserved? The thing was built in 1963 or so. At the time I'm sure they figured it was state of the art, and probably was. It was steel that failed, and up here, since 1963, they have probably poured TONS of salt all over that sucker every winter. That's what we use on the roads up here. With as much ice as we get, there realy isn't much choice. Salt eats steel. Just look at our old MN cars, rust buckets. Now, I ain't saying someone didn't screw up and that this couldn't have been prevented......
BUSH’S NEW STRATEGIC PLAN: ‘FIGHT THEM THERE, WHILE OUR INFRASTRUCTURE COLLAPSES HERE’
One Year Wonder @ 7:
Are you an idiot or just insensitive?
Have you ever visited Minneapolis? Do you know any Minnesotans? You have no idea what is happening here right now. Most, if not all, of us use 35W and have driven over the bridge countless times. First of all, it's a mistaken notion to say that most weren't directly affected, and furthermore it's insulting to insinuate that we would care more about a ballgame than repairing a tragedy that killed our neighbors. You can bet your pretty little behind that we'll pay attention to this.
Minnesota was actualy a very republican state back 75-100 years ago. Then public education caught on and ignorance started to fade. Seems like the better educated, the more democrat you tend to be. Not that there ain't smart republicans, it just that I have never met one.....
LibertyLover @ 27:
Just fer hyperbole's sake, maybe the "common good" dictactes that we revert back to (privately owned) ferry systems. I mean, why do we give people a free pass to cross rivers? Who really needs to, huh?
Yep, waitin' to see that argument from the 28%.
Sadly this tragedy shines light on the fact that in order to have safe roads & bridges, clean air and water and decent schools it takes money in the form of taxes. Yes, the money needs to be spend wisely, and the politicians who's job it is to parcel out the money need to be held accountable. But this constant refrain for the last several years of "no taxes" is coming back to bite us all. Everyone wants all of these things, but when the bill comes due, many don't want to pay it. This is a problem at every level of government from townships right up to Congress. It always seems that money can be found to fight endless wars, but when the safety of Americans is at stake right here at home, it's just too expensive.
fwacbar @ 33:
Michigan was, too, as was Wisconsin. But then the states that seceded from the Union were all Democratic states up until a few decades ago.
their is a way to hold the Minnesota governor accountable for vetoing the infrastructure funds....RECALL HIM! It was done in California and since there is a case to refer too, it should walk up all politicians who are against taxes that help build or other funds they seem to want to veto against the people who voted them in office.
So to all of those states who are mad at their politicians in office...RECALL THEM!
Thats the only way we will have accountability since we are unable to get it at the federal level....start with the local state and city governments.
RECALL them all!
I love this. Watching some of the pinheads making political hay about this before ALL THE BODIES ARE EVEN OUT OF THE FREAKIN' WATER!
Sick....
The thing is, they have been telling us for years that our bridges are in danger of collapse. It's just that no one's done anything about it.
What??
I thought the Market would keep that bridge up...
I guess falling bridges were in demand.
They're good for the economy...
Lordplayer @ 19:
Don't everybody forget the Iron Range. St Louis County is bluer than Ramsey County. It's all yer damn suburbs around the cities and farms to the South and Southwest that keep electing these bushies over and over. Michelle Bachman couldn't give a public speech in most Range cities.
Come on people. There is no money for infrastructure or other liberal socialist projects when there are EEvil brown people out there to kill, and the world's most costly military machine to feed! Heck, without all those billions going to prop up bomb/military corporate contracts, there would be no economy! Besides, there is no oil in Minneapolis or Minnesota, or New Orleans. Gotta get the priorities straight. You can't be the world's number 1 richest nation without a military to take it. What's a few deaths in the grand scheme of things?
1) This is bipartisan, Democrats ignore the basics just as much as republicans, look at the federal budget for the last 20 years....
2) Technically, it's all of our faults, you can't have a government by the people for the people and of the people, without implicitly blaming the people when it screws up. We, the average joe (or jane) citizens, certainly didn't do anything to make it worth while for the government to start funding our infrastructure, we didn't hold them accountable when they cut funding, quite the opposite when they raise taxes we get mad. Our society has created and nurtured this neglect from the bottom up. Everyone point a finger at yourself and ask, when was the last time you held your local government accountable for the state of its infrastructure? yeah.. me neither.
1oldmaid @ 37:
Do ya know if Minnesotans actually have provisions in their constitution that allow fer a recall?
Seems like bin Laden doesn't have to work very hard to destroy us anymore; he just puts together some home video in which he says "Boo!" every six months or so, and we take care of the rest. The Cheney Regime will spend all our cash on military hardware, paying off incompetent contractors, and looking for terrorists in all the wrong places, and meanwhile the country disintegrates around us.
The problem is that most states are facing exactly this same problem. Crumbling infrastructure, insufficient money, and then these well-funded outside foundations that come in at election time with astro-turfed ballot propositions that seem to succeed in draining more from the public coffers. Strange, how often Norquist is involved in these exercises. I've lived in two states, California and Oregon, where this has been the case.
Stalin's Crayon @ 41:
The Iron Range is solid blue no arguments there. It all goes down to a very basic issue. Republicans and the wealthy want the middle to believe firmly that vast wealth is a possibility to each and every American. So they start pointing out that the wealthy pay all the taxes and when you get wealthy you won't want to pay all these unfair taxes. The wealthy created the tech stock bubble and told you to buy or hold in 2000. Then the CNBCers told you that housing was solid in 04 05 06 and now, uh, well look at all the people who were led to believe that yes, they too can live like the wealthy.
When will the middle class realize that tax cuts will not lead you to vast personal wealth? You will never be rich. You may think so watching CNBC and listening to Cavuto, but IT WON'T HAPPEN. They are playing (preying is a better word) on your greed and laughing all the way to the bank. Get smart and vote for people who want to create a community that is safer by investing in our infrastructure. Vote blue.
Andy K @ 34:
I'm NOT a 28%er , my friend... perhaps I wasn't too clear... I want to see the infrastructure in the form of roads and wastewater treatment plants etc... THESE are the commons that we collectively own, for the common good. I hate the fact that we had spent so much more money in Iraq than supporting our own people...
Geez. Knock that chip off your shoulder, if this is a war of words; we need to emphasize that to the American People that taxes are important to our way of life... or are you advocating differently? (I thought you knew where I stood on this...)
"Have you ever visited Minneapolis? Do you know any Minnesotans? You have no idea what is happening here right now."
Oh gawd, spare me the Cindy Sheehan style histrionics. My solution to the gawd awful Megamall and deteriorating public school system in the town where I grew up (Bloomington) ---- I moved far, far away.
This article is such MSM emo bullshit its not even funny enough to warrant Daily Show mocking. Coleman wants to raise public awareness about infrastructure? Fine. But do it without all the "its so and so's fault and definitely NOT MINE / rage against the policitcal machine" meme. I bet someone is really gonna step up and say "I messed up here and here, how can we fix this" now that Coleman's opened his fat mouth to sell some newspapers.
One Year Wonder @ 7:
You speak the truth my friend. Maybe we need to sexy up politics a little to make it seem more gamey to people, then they'd actually care.
I vote we make it like darts, where policies are put on a board and whatever's hit, that's the one we finance.
fwacbar @ 33:
It's hard to generalize about Minnesotans. We are the only state that ever had a Socialist Party governor. We're the state of Hubert Humphrey, Eugene McCarthy, Walter Mondale and Paul Wellstone. We're also the state of Norm Coleman, Tim Pawlenty and (shudder) Michelle Bachman. I think we're also the only state that's had a professional wrestler for a governor.
Delia @ 44:
Good post. Bush said yesterday immediately after expressing condolences for the MN victims that Dems want to spend $1300 more per second for the next five years with their budget proposals. BUT WHAT HE DIDN'T TELL YOU, IS THAT WE SPEND $4000 A SECOND IN IRAQ! I mean who needs exercise to get your heart rate up anymore?
Geez, when the terrists destroy something, they clamor to take credit for it.
So when are the Minnesota governor and Department of Transportation going to ask for recognition?
They got the bridge they deserved, just like they got the Governor they deserved by voting for him. Since most people in a big city like Minneapolis weren’t directly affected by the bridge catastrophe, you can bet they’ll be paying more attention to pro sports games in town than the next round of budget cuts to infrastructure. Par for the course in modern America.
You don't know shit, buddy.
Fact is, the governor barely squeaked into office with less than 50% of the vote, because we have three major parties here. Minneapolis is as blue as they come. Minneapolis put Keith Ellison in the House of Representatives. It didn't put that boob in the governor's mansion (we have Tim Penny and Mike Hatch to thank for that).
Fact is, everybody in the metro area was affected very directly by that collapse, and will be for the next two+ years. That was no little-bitty bridge over a river, that was THE route into and past the city from the north. 150,000 vehicles used that bridge every fucking day. There is NO other north/south route that can reasonably handle that volume of traffic here that wasn't already working that hard before the collapse. I can tell you for a fact that traffic patterns here have been affected metro-wide... that's at least a 50 mile radius.
Fact is, that's just traffic. Fuck traffic. Fact is, there hasn't been anything else on people's minds here. It's not that the bridge was any kind of landmark. It wasn't pretty; although it gave you an incredible view of the Minneapolis skyline when you crossed it. It's the fact that everybody crossed it. Everybody. The University of Minnesota is a few blocks away. So is the Dome. So is anything downtown. It wasn't some random freeway bridge that went down; it was Main Street, Minnesota.
Fact is, it literally could have been any of us on that bridge. I was on that bridge wednesday. So were a hundred and fifty thousand others.
So no. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Nick Coleman, on the other hand, nailed it.
This should have been taken care of YEARS AGO!
So I wonder if former Gov JESSE "THE BODY" VENTURA, ex Navy Seal, has committed suicide yet? Seems like the Honorable thing to do.
Oh I know we can forget that, the Military only talks about honor, they don't practice it.
Jesse Venture said he was a "social liberal, but fiscal conservative".
Somehow spending money to prevent dead people would seem "social liberal" to me, but what do I know, I don't rely on my military service for understanding responsibilities such as Honor.
John in St. Paul @ 52:
John,
I was pissed when I read his post too. But now I'm more pissed. Good post. If he's lumping Minneapolis residents with your typical big city residents, he's just plain f------ wrong.
ANY WAY YOU LOOK AT IT.....The Bridge fell because of lack of maintenance, because of lack of funding, because of lack of taxes, because lack of will in Washington to provide tax funded national infrastructure support, because of cheap ass republicans irresponsibly cutting taxes and wasting money on a war that THEY should never have started.
This blood is DIRECTLY on the hands of the republican party and their irresponsible behavior.
Period.
Somebody on a blog wrote that the Pantheon is still intact after how many (?) thousand years, but our man-made infrastructure can't survive 40 years without some innocent person dying an awful death.
Yeah, the problem must be too much regulation of corporations. Right. That's it.
Watching that security camera video of the bridge collapsing, it seemed so symbolic of America today. Everything is slowly falling apart, while Bush's super-rich cronies get richer. I see no good future for this country.
From the MN governor's website:
One has to wonder exactly what he does on the National Infrastructure Advisory Council? Choose the restaurant for the post-meeting dinner?
I visited the NIAC's website and I don't see much in the way of work addressing any infrastructure such as bridges, dams, and the like. Their publications all seem to be focused on hardening the Internet, information sharing, and intelligence. All with an emphasis on terrorism. Nothing much seems to be mentioned about the aging of infrastructure and how we ought to be dealing with that.
IMHO, NAIC is just another in a long line of major wastes of taxpayer's money.
I wonder if the one TRILLION dollars spent on infrastructure instead of Iraq might have prevented something like this.
Awesome so glad to see the post - I live in Mpls - I read Nick Coleman often (His brother is St. Paul's Mayor (no relation to our inept Senator- Norm Coleman)
We Minnesotans appreciate blutness , we are however, sometimes Shy scandinavians, Germans, & Irishman(yes we also have the most Somalians outside of Somalia)
This is the issue!! If we could just spend a fraction we spend in IRAQ DAILY,The US could fix every bridge & road, install new light rail, etc. STO PTHE WAR NOW !!
Dan - Veghead
we are told that it wasn’t terrorists or tornadoes that brought the bridge down.
Not true. The bridge was brought down by the worst terrorists of all, the "No New Taxes" terrorists, the most calloused, brutal, evil, uncaring, mass murdering terrorists in the world and the will continue blithely along the same path until we stop them.
"Fact is, there hasn’t been anything else on people’s minds here. It’s not that the bridge was any kind of landmark. It wasn’t pretty; although it gave you an incredible view of the Minneapolis skyline when you crossed it. It’s the fact that everybody crossed it. Everybody. The University of Minnesota is a few blocks away. So is the Dome. So is anything downtown. It wasn’t some random freeway bridge that went down; it was Main Street, Minnesota."
Lets take a stroll through the Star Trib Op Ed pages on their website to see how much the flagship paper of MSP / SP cares about all this.
Editorial: A needed boost for birth control
Editorial: Editorial short cuts (* something about ticket scalping for sporting events)
Bloghouse: On the campaign trail, a war of words over the words of war
From An Editorial: A culture of uncommon strength takes a blow
Letter of the day: Later LRT schedule really would help
---
Yah you betcha, lots there about infrastructure, where and what public spending is going to ect. Mebbe the Pioneer Press has better. Now that I've checked, it does. For a much better (its actually a NEWS article) take on this story go here http://www.twincities.com/opinion/ci_6528454?nclick_check=1
Keep banging your shoes on your tables, I'm sure it helps. People really want to take responsibility for this with you guys screaming bloody murder / it ain't MY fault now. But in one year's time when the next inspection is due, no one but a few news junkies is gonna remember any of this.
LibertyLover @ 46:
No, LL, I'm withya 100%. I was merely playin' Devil's advocate- or Ayn Rand's.
Sorry if I was fuzzy there.
Robert Lockwood Mills @ 56:
I see your point, however there is no need to use a straw man argument.
The partenon does not have to support the loads of a bridge, esp one carrying such a volume of traffic.
The problem is fairly simple, and it is the big white elephant in our collective living rooms: Americans for the most part are a bunch of selfish assholes. Nothing will come out of this tragedy, let me repeat that again: NOTHING. I am sure there will be some sort of pony and dog show so that people can go to bed a sleep with the illusion that the system works. But as long as it does not affect their bottom line, i.e. personal wealth. Americans could care two shits about this bridge, look at Katrina... to this day no one gives for the most part a flying fuck about the death toll, and last I checked the people responsible for the clusterfuck that was the federal emergency response are either still in charge or promoted.
This country was found on taxes, actually lack of. The whole American revolution was about one thing: not having to pay taxes unless you have to. The Constitution, democracy, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is fluff added later by the American collective to feel good about the fact that the founders of this country were a bunch of wealthy land owners who for the most part were cool with the concept of slavery even when most European nations were renouncing to it. Same goes for the civil war, slavery had shit to do with the decision of the North to preserve the union... the stream of revenue lost by the secession of the Southern states was a much more important factor.
Heck, both Kore and Vietnam were stopped only when the fiscal pressure needed to keep the war going was becoming too much for the taste of the average American taxpayer. Anti war demonstrations, hippies burning their enlistment cards and the evening news bringing VietNam to the table every night cast had diddly squat of an effect.
Money is what this country is all about. That is why we have a "for profit" health system, that is why we let veterans rot on the streets, that is why Indian reservations have worse infant mortality rates than a lot of 3rd world countries, that is why on a per capita basis we spend more on foreign aid than every other industrialized nation. Fuck, we are net debtors, we owe more money than any other nation on earth... and we are even too stingy to give money that is not ours. We spend more on pet food than on providing medical support to 3rd world nations.
See those are our priorities, there are good people here no doubt. But for the most part Americans seem to equate going to the movies to watch a movie about how awful our health care system is to actually doing something.
A nation of selfish sheeple, too stupid to even know how to make money... and that is fucking sad. I don't mind us being text book example of worshipers of usury, but as a whole we are just not that good at money making. Heck on a per capita basis we owe more than $30K and that is just based on Federal debt obligations....
I meant that on a per capita basis we donate less to foreign aid that most industrialized nations.
Robert Lockwood Mills @ 56:
Kind of an apples/oranges argument there.
The Pantheon is made of unreinforced concrete, yes, but it doesn't , and has never been subject to, hundreds of thousands of pounds of traffic bearin' down on it. The Acropolis of Athens(or at least the Parthenon), built 500
years earlier would probably still be standin' if it hadn't been servin' as an Ottoman ammo dump in 1867 when it was shelled by the Venetians. And check out those still-standin' Pyramids in Egypt, which predate both.
If ya wanna compare modern bridges to any of the architecture of antiquity, I'd suggest the Colossus of Rhodes, a metal structure that, in the end, couldn't withstand the numerous earthquakes of the Mediterranean basin.
Andy K @ 66:
Whoops- typo! The Parthenon was destroyed in 1687.
Our infrastructure is doing GREAT ! This is happenning right now in NYC. The four Brooklyn neighborhoods are predominantly black, lower income. It's is pretty hot here today, with 'real-feel' of 101 peak, and high humidity. The American A/C units have relatively low capacity to treat the "latent heat" (the humidity related loads), partly a result of the natural psychrometric process, partly 'savings'(higher profits).
This is the same Con Edison that gave us the steam pipe geyser lately. Some bldgs around GCT are still closed, nobody knows when will open.
http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/con-edison-reduces-voltage-...
August 3, 2007, 6:36 pm
Con Edison Reduces Voltage in Brooklyn
By Sewell Chan
At 6:30 p.m., Consolidated Edison called on all customers in four Brooklyn neighborhoods — Crown Heights, Flatbush, East Flatbush and Ocean Hill-Brownsville — to “discontinue their use of non-essential electrical appliances and devices until problems on electrical equipment can be resolved.”
The utility said it had reduced voltage by 5 percent “as a precaution” in an area bounded by Fulton Street, New York Avenue, Clarendon Road and Alabama Avenue.
The area is served by an underground electrical network, called the Crown Heights network. Three of the 16 feeders in the network failed this afternoon — at 1:36 p.m., 4:09 p.m., and 4:47 p.m. — according to Michael S. Clendenin, a Con Edison
spokesman. In response, the utility reduced voltage by 5 percent — an amount that should not be noticeable to regular customers — and asked large businesses to conserve power this afternoon.
At 7:11 p.m., the Metropolitan Transportation Authority announced that trains on the Nos. 3 and 4 subway lines were running with 5- to 10-minute delays “due to signal problems caused by low voltage in the Crown Heights area.”
Normally, each underground network is designed so that up to three feeders can be out of service without any interruption in the power supply. Con Edison has work crews out trying to restore the feeders, Mr. Clendenin said.
In a statement, Con Edison noted that no power failure had occurred but added, “The utility is experiencing difficulties in this area and customer cooperation will help ensure uninterrupted electric service.”
Appeals for conservation are infrequent. Con Edison urged its customers in East Midtown to shut off nonessential appliances — like washers, dryers and air conditioners — the day after the steam pipe explosion on July 18.
35 is the new 86.
Lordplayer @ 29:
No problem, I understand why we get forgotten because WE ARE so far up north. And I do agree, the more west you go in MN, the hickier it gets. Which is fucked, these people are all farmers, and they vote for a party that works against them.
Stalin's Crayon @ 41:
No she could not. Here on the Range, we are strong DFL. 70% of us voted for Kerry in 2004. Strong strong strong blue. Why? We are laborers. THE MINES. The Republican party are against unions and workers. And WE KNOW to not vote for them.
...paul wellstone was a god up here.
Andy K @ 64:
Sorry Andy, lack of sleep will do that to a person... After re-reading your comment I have egg on my face... :) (blush)
and when haliburton gets the no bid contract to build that bridge will the people get it then , doubtfully, 2 plus 2 seldom equals 4 anymore, as long as the bridge is back and the populace is happy to be back in thier own little comfort zone with a twelve pack watching the filthy rich role models on tv
MeMyselfAndI @ 64-
This country was found on taxes, actually lack of. The whole American revolution was about one thing: not having to pay taxes unless you have to. The Constitution, democracy, liberty and the pursuit of happiness is fluff added later by the American collective to feel good about the fact that the founders of this country were a bunch of wealthy land owners who for the most part were cool with the concept of slavery even when most European nations were renouncing to it. Same goes for the civil war, slavery had shit to do with the decision of the North to preserve the union… the stream of revenue lost by the secession of the Southern states was a much more important factor.
Well, that's boilin' it down so far that it melts.
Yeah, ya could say it was about taxation, but it was really about representation. Franklin made trips to London to lobby MP's fer American seats in Parliament in the decades leadin' up to the Revolution(which one could also call the Second English Civil War). Along with taxation there were issues of trade monopolies granted by the Crown to favorites(John Hancock, trader, was considered a smuggler because he circumvented the legal monopolies), and the control over lands(the Crown didn't just grant charters fer colonies, it also awarded vast tracts of lands in the Colonies to its favorites- ever wonder why George Washington took up the profession of surveyor? Do ya know how much land he bought up on the cheap followin' the Revolution?).
And to add a fine point to yer Civil War reasonin'- plantation owners spent roughly the same amount of $$ on their slaves as they would have if the labor were paid free men. So why didn't the plantation class voluntarily manumit their slaves? The 3/5 clause counted slaves as part of the populations of the slave states when it came time to draw up Congressional districts. This clause over-represented the slave ownin' class. This was the reason fer the Missouri Compromise, Bloody Kansas and the Civil War itself. Fair and equal representation allows for a level economic playin' field.
One Year Wonder @ 48:
Well, it's true, given your comments here, you really don't know shit about a state you grew up in.
I'm just shocked that you, as a Minnesotan, would say that the state deserved this tragedy. Well, actually, I'm disgusted.
The US DOT reported that there are 70,000 bridges in the US that are defective.
If one of those failed each day, it would take almost 192 years to get rid of them all.
Looks like we're in for the long haul.
Maybe Toyota would consider offering parachutes as standard equipment on US models, as a public service.
LibertyLover @ 73:
Ah, it's nothin'.
Ya must be tired, LL. I thought ya'd know me a bit better. ;)
if we don't fix the bridges in iraq, then we will have to fix them here
Happy with our infrastructure?
Thank a Republican
I would like to see the study that rated this bridge at 50%, along with all the other bridges ratings. Anyone know of a link?
Dahgrostab'ph-r-i @ 14:
I don't know about wanting it to happen or not, but yesterday Tucker Carlson asked his guests about the benefits of privatizing bridges and roads. All I could think, as I turned him off, was how successful that's been for the patients at Walter Reed!
p.s. I'm a former M'apolis resident with 2 adult children and 2 grandchildren there still.
What a message do any terrorist group gets from this. I'm talking from Al-Qaeda (their foreign bad guys) to any Supremist group (our bad guys...and we have many).
Forget about planes to take this country down, just blow up about 25 major bridges (middle of the night) and where is the USA going to get the money (appatrently) to get them back up? It's all sapent on a military program to......do what? and to a country the size of California. And for what reason? What is the investment of $700 BILLION for again?
The only thing dummer than all this, is the lunatic is still in charge of the asylum!!
I don't think this is a problem specifically in Minnesota or has anything to do with the governor or politics. The feds say bridge inspections should be done every two years but in many states including Minnesota inspections are done every year. Plus many bridges are labled "defficient". It's a known fact that we have an aging interstate infrastructure. And it usually takes a disaster before someone takes it seriously.
The bridge could have been weakened while being resurfaced plus funneling a large amount of vehicles on just a couple lanes during the lane closure probably put more weight on a weakened section of the bridge.
I'm not a civil engineer but my point is that it probably isn't a political issue. Not Bush's fault, not Clinton's fault, not the Governor's fault. It's circumstances. An older bridge with a weak spot or fracture that may have been overlooked, ongoing repair work, and alot of traffic combined all at once to create a disaster.
Here in DC we have the Woodrow Wilson bridge which is currently being rebuilt over the Potomac River. It's going to be two six lane draw spans. It's actually the only Interstate draw bridge in the nation. The old bridge with 4 lanes was carefully monitored because it was handling traffic way beyond it's capacity. It was a terrible bottleneck in the DC area. I remember being on it stuck in traffic and feeling it shake as trucks whizzed by in the other direction. Inspectors would literally see concrete crumbling in places when heavy trucks went over the span. For years MD, DC, VA and the federal govt debated on who would pay for the new bridge and what the design should be. They talked about replacing the draw span with a tunnel, a higher bridge with no draw span or a higher bridge with a draw span that wouldn't need to open as much because it was higher. The ladder design was selected. The new bridge or actually set of 6 lane bridges is almost completed now and no one felt any sorrow when the old 4 land bridge was demolished.
After writing this I may take back some of what I said earlier. Maybe if that 35W bridge was crossing the Potomac in DC it may have gotten a little more scrutiny or maybe not. Who knows.
I think with our bridge it was obviously a source of contempt and people were worried it would come down if it wasn't replaced soon because it was handling traffic way beyond what it was designed for. And it was literally starting to come apart. It was an extreme case that needed to be corrected.
I think what can be learned from this is that we need to monitor more closely the bridges that aren't as extreme cases. Those are the ones where fractures and problems can easily be missed.
TDoff @ 77:
This isn't a funny situation, but you've cracked me up pretty good :) :) :)
I used to be high up in the WTC (above 80th floor, with 'window office') for maaany years - so many great jokes we've had about parachutes. Especially on the days the blimps/ planes were passing by our windows - all were friendly until 9/11.... Cannot quote the best, the SiteNanny would delete me..
Your choice of Toyota is smart, GM and others wouldn't do it - it wouldn't be patriotic, probably in violation of Patriot Act.
One wonders how long the memory of '35W bridge' will last - I doubt it will be with sheeple during the next election. Then, who are the fantastic dem candidates we could ask our neighbors to vote for ???
For now: from abcnews.com
20 Heavily Trafficked Bridges in Urgent Need of Repair: Is Yours on the List?
August 02, 2007 8:17 PM
A. Bahou, A. Hull, JR Santo & B. Wei Report:
Twenty heavily trafficked bridges "may need to be replaced" because they are structurally deficient, according to national bridge inspection data. These bridges scored a lower structural integrity rating than the I-35W bridge in Minnesota
before its collapse.
According to the 2006 National Bridge Inventory, the Minnesota bridge received a "50% sufficiency" rating. The Federal Highway Administration says any bridge with a rating of 50 percent or lower is considered "structurally deficient" and "may need to be replaced."
The Minnesota bridge carried an average of 180,000 commuters per day. An ABC News analysis of the National Bridge Inventory data reveal that at least 20 other bridges carrying more than 190,000 daily commuters are in even worse structural shape.
Half of the 20 bridges are located in New Jersey and California, including the famous San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge.
The New Jersey Route-21 Bridge over the I-80 corridor is the busiest, with more than 518,000 daily commuters and a 49 percent sufficiency rating. The lowest rated bridge is the Raritan River Smith Street Bridge in New Jersey which 208,000 commuters drive across daily. It earned a rating of only 20 percent.
The Federal Highway Administration's sufficiency rating serves only as a guideline and does not mean that a bridge is necessarily unsafe.
20 Most Deficient, Heavily-Trafficked Bridges (Source: 2006 National Bridge Inventory, Federal Highway Administration):
20.2%. New Jersey: Raritan River Smith St. Bridge over the Garden State Parkway. Daily commuter load of 208,000.
23.6%. New Jersey: Elizabeth River Bridge over the Garden State Parkway. Daily commuter load of 198,200.
27.2%. New Jersey: Port Reading Bridge over Grove Avenue. Daily commuter load of 191,530.
32%. New York: Lee Avenue Bridge (Section A) over Route I-278. Daily commuter load of 202,650.
32.1%. California: San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge (Ala-Oak) over I-80. Daily commuter load of 277,700.
32.1%. Hawaii: Kapalama Canal over Halona Street. Daily commuter load of 211,528.
34%. New York: Joralemon Street Bridge over Route I-278. Daily commuter load of 202,650.
35%. Illinois: Stewart Avenue Bridge over I-90. Daily commuter load of 238,500.
36%. Colorado: South Platte River Bridge over I-25ML. Daily commuter load of 208,353.
42.5%. Virginia: Boundary Channel Bridge over Shirley Memorial Highway. Daily commuter load of 210,993.
46.3%. Georgia: Banberry Road Bridge over I-75. Daily commuter load of 266,060.
46.3%. California: San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge (SF section) over I-80. Daily commuter load of 204,900.
46.3%. New Jersey: Elizabeth River Bridge over Garden State Parkway. Daily commuter load of 198,200.
47%. California: 5th Avenue Bridge over I-880. Daily commuter load of 240,000.
48%. California: Noakes Street Bridge over I-710. Daily commuter load of 240,000.
49%.New Jersey: Route-21 Bridge over I-280. Daily commuter load of 518,100.
49%. California: Bayshore Viaduct over Rte 101. Daily commuter load of 256,700.
49%. New York: Lee Avenue Bridge (Section C) over I-278. Daily commuter load of 202,650.
49%. Massachusetts: Cape Cod Canal over Route 28. Daily commuter load of 195,000.
50%. California: Metrolink over I-710. Daily commuter load of 235,440.
No...we won't soon forget up here. Yes...that bridge was "Main Street Minnesota". Traffic (which was already very congested) will be totally f*cked for a LONG time. Get it? Totally F*CKED for a LONG TIME. That's what will piss off even the most apathetic citizen.
And we'll want to blame someone for our woes. And it won't be hard to figure out who. Pawlenty is washed up as of right now. First, he hitched his wagon to McCain; then he vetoed transportation spending bills two years in a row. Yes, I realize he didn't make the bridge come down. But it's our nature to assign blame....and these lousy "no new taxes" yahoos deserve the blame. Any coward can cry about taxes.
Yeah let's blame someone, that'll solve EVERYTHING. Let's not ask questions, let's not try to take some responsibility for this, let's not accept that people get the governments they deserve, let's just ban baseball in MN, let's just get really pissed off because something real bad happened in our community and I don't wanna think about why it happened or if somehow collectively as a community we failed, I just wanna burn someone, something at the stake, I mean fuck it, who wants to know about torque and balanced forces in equilibrium, who wants to know what goes into a bridge inspection or if engineer training is good enough, why personally investigate and learn about any of this shit, I'm not responsible for any of it, that shits super boring, I just wanna feel good right now cause now I have to take 494 or 94 to get downtown to go to the uptown art fair.
Ok...sure...let's pause and learn about torque, and balanced forces, and equilibrium. You'll forgive me if I was under the impression that my tax dollars were paying someone else to worry about that...or that we were collecting enough tax dollars to hire enough engineers. Sorry if you don't like the blame game, but you might as well get used to it. It's gonna happen.
fwacbar @ 25:
Hello does this sound familiar ! ! Pawlenty is a ..Putz he barely won & this post says it all !! Wellstone Power forever !!
Dan - Veghead !
Nick Coleman should stop copying me. I've been writing damn near the same thing for the last couple days. Only my name for the new, half-billion dollar replacement bridge would be, "Maintenance Is Important."
Hell no, you ain't gonna take my money fer stuff like infastrucksher and for helpin' all them poor babies who don't go no inshorence. My taxes is fer war and stuff that keeps America great. An' it's my god-given right to drive whereever the hell I want, but you ain't gonna git me to pay for buildin' them roads and bridges and stuff and makin' sure they's safe. Hell no. Next yer gonna want take my money to pay people to check the food and baby toys and keep the big companies from dumpin' stuff in the air and rivers-- proof that you liberals hate America! All these goverment regulations are just trying to destroy the little man. Hell, if I keep my nose between the buttcheeks of them rich folk, they just might hand me a little of them billions and I can be rich too. Some day... so I'm defending them rich guys to the death... they's my kind of people... Speshly the rich ones that talk like me and I think I could have a beer with 'em.
Jay @ 38:
its kinda like the reoublicans useing 911 huh jay boy?
lol...you are such a mean bunny...
"You’ll forgive me if I was under the impression that my tax dollars were paying someone else to worry about that"
Please, don't do that. In all seriousness.
Privatization of our Interstate Highways is threatening us now more than ever. Pawlenty is already setting the wheels in motion to put tollways on our roads. This is the very reason he vetoed the 5cents gas tax and ignored the fact that our infrastructure needs an upgrade. This is not to say it is solely any one party's fault, but the way many Republican governors are choosing to correct these infrastructure issues will only complicate things. Common Good or Privatization? What will the citizens of this country choose?
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/01/highwaymen-2.html
All I can say to America's failing infrastructure is: Bring It On!
Let it all fall down! Maybe then bush will leave the country to his new resort/retreat/bunker in Argentina, cheney will get his ass over to Dubai, and rumsfeld will retire to his fenced in estate in the North East. 'Cause when commerce finally comes to a halt, they won't be able to collect any more tax dollars from me to continue supporting the occupation of Iraq and the bribing cost-plus contractors for election fund donations with the U.S. Treasury.
Here is a good bumper sticker slogan " BUILD BRIDGES NOT BOMBS"
in all seriousness, wtf is your point? Do you need to be informed about hydraulic systems in order to fly on a plane? or do you assume, when you buy your ticket, that someone is getting paid to take care of that plane for you? I don't need to be an engineer, nor a physics major, to assume (insist?) that our infrastructure is being looked after properly.
We have learned the hard way that it's not.
The simple fact is that in a free market economy it does not pay to put money into infrastructure. Wear it out, get full value, take the profit unless the lawsuits will be too big is the sick calculus that corporation and govt. alike uses. Plumbing and foundation isn't sexy, monuments and other facades, ballparks, bombs that go boom, space shuttle missions, new fighter bombers, and on and on consumes the interest of the public unless things really go bad. Then it is the outrage why the levies weren't reinforced, the bridges not fixed, the power grid not upgraded, the mass transit not implemented, the alternative less polluting power not brought online, etc. Short term, ill informed thinking is getting us exactly what have and this is just the start. If you consider people in the last 10+ years no longer drink tap water we are literally turning ourselves into a third world country as fast as we possibly can. Sad, and to think a red blooded flag waving right winger will argue that it is partisian with liberals making hay...incompetence, greed, lies, short sighted, uneducated thinking...that's not a left or right issue it is just plain wrong. American excellence appears to be on the endangered species list at times. Makes you wonder if a Minnesota bridge collapse will end up being the Katrina moment for the middle class?
“You’ll forgive me if I was under the impression that my tax dollars were paying someone else to worry about that”
This sounds a lot like what people were saying about invading Iraq right before we invaded it - "eh, Bush must know what he's doing, its the government, hell even Powell advocated it."
We're citizens of this country, our communities. Whatever happens, we're all at fault. That means we should take some responsibility for what goes on. That means learning for ourselves about the things that are problems and issues for us. Or you can stamp your foot and point fingers like Coleman, whatever suits you.
Someone asked about bridge inspections. A summary of a short ABC report.
1) Texas has the safest bridges and it has the most bridges in the country. Texas also requires that all inspectors be certified in a specific branch of civil engineering dealing with bridges.
2) Inspections around the country are often subcontracted out to private industry. (uh oh)
3) Inspection scores on the 1-10 scale are incredibly subjective and dangerously non-specific (they don't mean squat).
For those who think it's "sick" to pick apart the political implications of this, I just want to say...
The only thing that compounds a hideous tragedy more is discovering some detail that makes it clear that there was no reason for it to happen.
That, at the root, is what politics is about. The feelings it conjures up and the people with accountability. Not separate alliances.
This is yet another moment in which political discourse becomes one in the same as discourse about reality. The exact difference between those on the right and those on the left is that it is and will always be a fairy tale conversation about imaginary threats and senseless ideals on the right's end.
The things we're always talking about have to do with real life. so, I think it's okay to complain about the sheer neglect the infrastructure is facing because if mis-prioritized budget management.
Did anyone hear what laura said to the people during her visit?
The pine nut said (paraphrasing) there is a lot of good things that came out of it.
UN-freaking-believe.
I don't know if she meant to sound callas or she's so stupid that she doesn't realize she said it. Either way she remains a nut.
It was on Keith's show today.
You get what you pay for-and government and state contracts are typicaly awarded to the LOW BID. Hence this latest disaster. Look at the levees in NOLA, another slap in the face that cost American lives. Face it-our government doesn't give a rat's ass about us, so why the hell are we still paying their salaries?
REVOLUTION NOW!
Hastings here. Here's my letter to Pawlenty:
August 3, 2007
Governor Tim Pawlenty
130 State Capitol
75 Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Blvd.
St. Paul, MN 55155
Governor Pawlenty:
After the tragedy of our bridge collapsing into the Mississippi River on Wednesday I thought to myself,” How could such a terrible thing happen here?” I then decided to research any possible explanations I could find. I came across the following quotes that may help you in understanding what may be the underlying cause of our aging infrastructure.
“Keeping a lid on taxes is not just good for the taxpayer. It's a powerful way to force government to be more accountable, set priorities and spend smarter. Let me repeat that: more accountable, set priorities and spend smarter - that's what we need to be about.“
- Gov. Tim Pawlenty - (quote courtesy of www.brainyquote.com)
“Gov. Tim Pawlenty’s transportation program, as outlined last week, resembles the house of sticks earnestly and hopefully assembled by the second little pig. It seemed an impressive structure to those not paying close attention, but, as you’ll recall, blew over quite easily once the big wind came.
Minnesota needs a stronger transportation foundation than the governor’s house of sticks. For years the state has allowed its infrastructure to erode, adding an update from time to time, but forging no solid commitment to build the road network that outstate Minnesota requires or, more critically, to anticipate the crushing needs of a metro area expected to grow to 4 million people by 2030.”
- Star Tribune, “State needs stronger transportation plan; Governor’s initiative
looks good to those not paying attention,” February 5, 2006.
"We will absolutely get to the bottom of this," Pawlenty said. "There were a lot of decisions made, a lot of judgment calls made, and they're all going to have to be critically reviewed."
- Gov. Tim Pawlenty-in reference to the I35W bridge collapse
14Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests,
15And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver.
16And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.
-Matthew 26:14-16;King James Version (KJV)
I hope your ideology was at least able to pay you 30 pieces of silver to betray us Governor. I can give you the results of a “critical review”; virtually bankrupting MNDOT by vetoing transportation budgets leads to horrible things happening to our state infrastructure.
I have enclosed $2.00 with this letter. This amount of money is the approximate amount I would have paid for one month in extra taxes at the gas pump to help properly fund Minnesota transportation needs.
I do not care what you do with this money, but allow me to make a suggestion. Why don’t you throw it in the trashcan? I am sure it will find good company in there, after all that’s where my safety as a citizen of Minnesota now resides.
Disgustedly,
xxxx
we had similar occurances during the mid 70's and into the 80's.
deja vu all over again for me folks...any other oldster out there remember the boarded up storefronts in almost every city and town, effed up social services and falling bridges?
i do.
It is so sad to say but this is not going to be the only tragic event we are shaken up with.
Because our elected officials are just not going to do their jobs and kick this ass hole out of the white house or attempt it at the very least, we are subject to more of this kind of crap.
American people need to understand that Bush has stripped funding in pretty much all of our federal agencies that are responsible for the safety and security of this country, to the point that none of them can do any of the jobs, required of them to keep the people in this country safe.
Many of them don't even get base funding to keep the operations afloat and this includes the operations in Iraq also. They are not funding anything but their own pockets.
When these incidents happen, they just hire more private contractors who are all waiting in the wings for these events to happen and the dollar signs start rolling.
They perform these surveys, at a cost of two or three million or more. All billed to American people and get all over C-Span spewing vermin and lie's about the results of their findings and move the hell on to the next victims.
You hear these nasty ass republicans everyday howling big government Dem's. These are the things that make us safe and secure and they have the audacity to keep this sick mantra going about how safe American people are under the leadership of this thug.
Even sadder is the fact that they know how unsafe they are making this country and they also know what the possibilities of American death and destruction will happen, but they don't give a dame and we see and hear this crap everyday with the thugs they have all over our airwaves telling us what a great man this fool is.
This is really sad how we have to watch our country go down the way it is going and eighteen months is a long time to have these cheap thugs running things and even worse is the thought that they are not going to leave period.
Hmm,
now with all the fancy terrorist plans about, I seriously wonder why they never try anything easy, like, oh, mix some fertilizer/diesel explosives in a truck, drive onto a bridge in the rush hour, and set it off.
You'll need about 1-2 guys to carry it out, its cheap, and even though explosion tend to go upwards, the odds for breaking down an old bridge should be far better than hijack a plane or blow it up with practically impossible ideas.
Makes you wonder, its so easy to actually do it, but all the plans you hear about, are extremely difficult plans, with people trying to hit the hardest places they can find, like military camps.
Rob @ 58:
As everyone on this site argues that more tax dollars would have made this better and whether the Republicans or Democrats are better bridge builders, I'm asking everyone to briefly scan the article at this website: whatdoesitmean.com/index1026.htm. According to the article, it's all our faults.
One Year Wonder @ 100:
Your argument is specious. Apples 'n' Oranges. Infrastructure maintenance has nothing to do with Iraq. Everyone should definitely have an opinion when we are about to enter into a war, I wholeheartedly agree. Hell, I also happen to think that more people should be interested in zoning issues and the like. However, it's highly unlikely that the majority of American (or Costa Rican or Tuvaluan or whatever) people are going to have either the background, time, or resources to examine every aspect of government with a fine-tooth comb. That's why we have civil engineers. And while we should definitely make sure that those people who are inspecting and repairing our infrastructure are competent and reliable (through certifications, peer review, etc.), the way to do that is not to have every Joe Schmoe walk up and ask a welder if he really knows what he's doing, and wouldn't it be better to do it this way, etc. It'd be ridiculous, and nothing would ever get done. Now, I'm glad that we have some people who are capable of asking important questions, but we really don't need everyone doing everything.
Also, I'd say you lost all your support on this board when you first said that we got the bridge we deserved. (I am a Minnesotan, as well.) That was in shockingly poor taste, and was extremely disrespectful, no matter if you think the American public is a bunch of little Eichmanns running around. Besides, a number of people have pointed out that the bridge was built in the 60's, long before most of us were of voting age. Just because we don't have IRV and so a Republican was able to squeak by and become governor a couple of years ago does not mean our lives are forfeit and we are the scum of the earth that you imply we are. You should apologize.
"Someone to blame". Well, there's alot to go around. From the previous posts I think they've all been covered: us, the people; the governor of MN; the Prez; and, of course Congress. And it's probably the last one who's most responsible, but it is hard to pin it on Congress because Congress is more of an idea, an institution, than a person. Difficult to lay blame on a group where the membership keeps changing. But, ultimately that's where it lies.
I now reside in Florida but for 30 years I lived and worked in Washington, D.C. as a graphic designer and art director for any number of companies. For years I produced those nasty, little PowerPoint presentations that we all have come to know and love for a wide range of businesses, associations, and government clients. You'd be surprised what crossed my desk.
Pertaining to this thread, I did a presentation for an organization (whose name I don't recall) which has as its priority watching where all those gas tax dollars you pay end up. Y'see, all of those taxes were meant to go to the national highway system and support our infrastructure. But somewhere along the way, Congress quietly (which it does frequently) changed the rules and those tax dollars flow into the "general fund" and Congress then decides how much of those tax dollars go to fix our highway (and bridge) infrastructure. And what Congress decides to spend is ALWAYS below projections based on intelligent research. At the time I was designing that presentation (mid-1990's) the allocated dollars for infrastructure maintenance was approximately
50% of revenues and had been falling for decades.
Its not a secret (but not common knowledge) our wonderful Congresses have, over the years, been very creative with our money and its allocation. Just as an aside, have you any idea which entity holds the largest share of our national debt? China? No. Japan? No. Any country? Well, yes. It's US! We buy our own debt! The Social Security Admin. holds 51% of our debt because Congress, in its "wisdom", decreed that the SSA could invest only in Treasury bonds (re: our debt) and nowhere else. Charming, right. I'll let you ponder the implications of that policy.
And, maybe, Congress really isn't at fault. It's not a House of Lords. The positions aren't handed down from father to son. WE put them there. WE said "do a good job, kiddies" and then we went out to dinner at Applebee's and came home and watched American Idol while texting on our cell phones. Whether you admit it or not, we do get the government we deserve. And, unfortunately we must live with the consequences of our actions.
From the movie The American President: "America is advanced citizenship. You've really got to want it." I've never heard it expressed better.
Infrastructure: It may not be a sexy issue, but it is THE ISSUE.
The Minnesota Transportation Commissioner cut short the official trip to China she was on for God-knows-what-reason to tell reporters yesterday that "I don't want to hear anybody say I wanted this bridge to collapse!" Duh. Just like a head-up-her-ass Republican. But I believe her. When job #1 is tax cuts for billionaires and job #2 is seeing that nothing is spent for infrastructure, I can believe she _WAS_ fervently hoping, praying, that she would be "lucky" enough that nothing major crumbled under her watch. Unfortunately the luck ran out and now she gets to defend the "public service" of Republican administration based on hope, prayers, neglect, misplaced priorities and general stupidity.
To further demonstrate how seriously Republican Governor Pawlenty's administration takes infrastructure, Transportation Commissioner isn't even her full time job. They mashed it together with Lt. Governor to eliminate positions so when Molnau isn't kissing babies and attending funerals, she can dip a hand in infrastructure.
This could make the '08 Republican Convention _really_ interesting. I'm sure the secret service is concentrating planning on crowd control around the convention center in St. Paul. But now it is likely the bridge site will also be a major focus for protest. A hole that size demonstrates Republican priorities too clearly not to become one. Helicopter views of 100,000 people lining both sides of the cliffs and the remaining bridge anyone?
It's also going to make the Senate race interesting. I've never been one to believe that Coleman was an easy defeat and I've argued here and elsewhere that Franken couldn't win because he has serious vulnerabilities in the rural, exurban vote. But that was based on the techniques of petty politics. The seriousness of this tragedy blunts that weapon and shifts the balance greatly in the Democrat's favor. The irony is that Pawlenty's neglect may be Coleman's downfall. It was the RNC itself that told Pawlenty to run for Governor because they wanted Coleman for Senator.
If countless numbers of people have to be sacrificed upon the Alter of No Taxes, that's a sacrifice that rich GOPers are ever willing to make.
We're going to be seeing a lot more of this in the coming years. It's what happens when you perpetually vote the selfish ticket.
Paul @ 113:
Taxes have nothing to do with this. Read the article at: www.whatdoesitmean.com/index1026.htm. The gov will take any and all the money you give them but if they're evil it isn't going to prevent murder on a mass scale.
Thank you, Joel...this guy doesn't have a clue.
It's the economy, stupid!
For the amount of money it would have taken to repair the bridge, the folks who are getting the benefit of the US tax breaks and pocketing the dollars needed to repair the bridge could build about one hundred yachts to dock at Monaco and use for their monthly vacations.
Who in their right minds would want to deprive these tycoons and CEOs of much-needed rest and relaxation? After all, they're the ones whose purpose in life is to keep the rest of us gainfully employed.
Not to mention the yacht builders, their employees, their suppliers. Rebuilding that bridge instead of giving the tax breaks might have triggered a recession that would have caused all those people who were driving over the bridge to lose their jobs so they wouldn't have been driving over the bridge to go back and forth to work anyway.
Would that have been a good thing?
The solution to this problem is obvious.
The reason the bridge collapsed is because it was bumper-to-bumper with cars in a traffic jam, putting a great load on the structure.
The answers are:
1. Replace the bridge(s) with a ferry(s).
2. Put bridge-access traffic lights at each end of the bridge(s), allowing only one car at a time to cross. This would not only reduce the load, but the loss of life if the bridge(s) fails anyway.
3. Start a bridge(s)-crossing lottery, so that if one does perish in a bridge(s) collapse, one's heirs inherit bazillions of dollars. This would also reduce the bridge(s)-crossing reluctance-syndrome that is likely to result from the current incident.
4. Pass a Bridge(s)-Banning law.
Ain't no problem can't be solved.
One Year Wonder @ 7:
Wow. Thanks for illustrating how many incredibly wrong things can one put into a single paragraph. Speaking as one who lives less than a mile from the bridge, allow me to respond.
1) Minneapolis did not vote for Pawlenty. He was inflicted on us by suburban SUV drivers.
2) Ditto the Twins stadium 'deal.' Outstate Minnesota state representatives sure loved that. Their buddy Carl Pohlad's pockets get filled, and they get to just foist the cost off on Hennepin county without asking the residents. They used to call that taxation without representation.
3) While the Pawlenty/Molnau/Taxpayers League regime is not entirely to blame for this, they do epitomize the utter inability of Republicans to govern responsibly, particularly when it comes to transportation issues. This process began with Nixon, was popularized by Reagan, and was finally shoved up this country's arse by Bush.
4) The Minnesota polity is more informed and engaged than anywhere in the country. If you think this event is what we deserve, just wait till the next one comes your way, pal. Beware Karma.
Finally,
5) Come here and tell me most people in this city weren't affected by this disaster.
I just read on mpls startribune website of a consultant's report in 2006 had recommended the bridge needed steel plating reinforcement. The state of minnesota transportation dept (headed by Palwenty's Republican Lt. Governor, who was operating in dual roles to save the state money and not have a professional transportation dept head) decided not to follow that recommendation and instead elected the most "cost efficient" option. In another words, it appears to be all about saving money. Now it will cost as much as $500 million to replace the bridge plus the unquantified economic cost of 140,000 cars daily being re-routed thru side streets and the impact on local businesses and decreased quality of everyone's life. There needs to be accountability and not cute sidestepping comments by politicians.
TDoff: don't quit your day job, assuming you have one.
Tommy @ 120:
I dunno, Tommy...it was pretty funny, in a snarky & cynical kinda way.
The ironic thing about this incident, if irony is allowed, is now our bridges are falling and we're having explosions in downtown areas from decaying infrastructure, and no terrorists were necessary.
You cross the river with the bridge you have, not with the bridge you wish you had.
the statistics are that 25% of 590,000 bridges surveyed by the American Society of Engineers are deemed Structuraly deficient!
that is 23,600 bridges that we drive accross every day. and all of them are at risk of failing.
Is that a new Dark Age that i smell? the metaphor of a broken bridge is quite accurate. but in the near future, the metaphore will be an industrialized nation of the past. we will no longer have paved roads, or bridge, or hospitals, or ball parks.
Lordplayer @ 55:
From the big small town of St. Paul, well said. Thank you. And to all the Minnesotans posting here who know how the bridge collapse has affected not just we who live in the Twin Cities but the entire state, thank you, too. I didn't get the governor nor the Congress nor the president I deserve. NONE of us, even those who refuse to take off the blinders and recognize what the current regime has wrought on our nation, has the government we deserve. Nick Coleman nailed it; Rachel Maddow on Obermann nailed it, too: there are no Democratic or Republican bridges, levees in NOLA, or steam pipes under NYC for that matter.
U americans, and your neocon friends have been murdering people around the globe long before General Smedley Butler wrote War is a Racket. The evil that u folks are experiencing under the neocons is just proof that what comes around goes around. The conquest and occupation of Iraq cost 5 times the cost of bringing all bridges up to snuff. Flooding, draught, unemployment, nazi like swat teams, wicked bought and paid for corporate lobbyists as parliamentarians, enviromental rape, and on and on. Never mind.....and now breaking news about Paris Hilton. U idiots will bring us all down.
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I like your idea Zog. I think I will go into St. Paul tomorrow and put that sign on a bridge that is 49% OK that gets 70,000 cars a day. That one is covered with pigeon shit to so the inspectors can't see the cracks in the steel. The St. Paul bridge had a crack in it big enough to put your arm through. They fixed it with a weld. Pictures in todays Minneapolis Tribune. No money to fix our infrastructure but the day the I 35 bridge came down the politicians in Minneapolis had a ground breaking ceremony for a $500,000 baseball stadium paid for with taxpayer money. No bridge fix but, by God , we got our asses a new baseball stadium to sit in. How about that for priorities Zog?
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