Ben Stein's Delusional Defense Of Senator Larry Craig
Former Nixon advisor, actor, TV game show host and comedian, Ben Stein appeared with FOXNews' Neil Cavuto and makes what is probably the most misguided, fact-free and delusional defense of Larry Craig we've found since the scandal broke earlier this week. Stein says Craig was railroaded, and that all he did was tap his foot. He repeatedly accuses the Minneapolis Police Department of using Gestapo tactics and aiding terrorists because they should be scouring the airport looking for terrorists, fervently states that gay sex isn't illegal because the SCOTUS says so and then claims the Executive Branch may have been involved in bringing Craig down to change the balance of power in D.C. WTF?
Download | play 
Download | play (thanks to Scarce for the video)
WTF?
Bueller...? Bueller...?
Gestapo?
Where was this asshole when they detained and tortured Jose Padila for three years?
So what qualifies someone to be an expert on Faux Noise? Ted Nugent, Ben Stein, Dennis Miller and the rest belong on an episode of The Love Boat. I mean, they must REALLY be desperate for some perspective here. I still feel sorry for Craig's wife.
Ben Stein is a decent game show host. He does a very good impression of a boring teacher. But he really should stick to entertainment.
wtf, Steins an imbecile! His old game show should have been Find Ben Steins Brain, no one still would have won.
Like the rest of the far right extremist Republican self-loathing repressed homosexual @$$holes, Mr. Stein is desperately afraid he'll be outed as well.
he's right. all craig did was tap his foot. thats not illegal. neither is asking someone for sex.
craig was railroaded by the hypocritical republican party to resign..meanwhile, david vitter is booking a hotel room in washington.
one supporter
and counting
heh...
Is what he says slandering the Minneapolis Police Department ?
[deleted - sorry, we're not giving that crap any hits.]
WTF in spades. The only way this makes sense is if Ben Stein (did you notice the “comeonnn!) is a closet case himself and has been or is afraid of getting caught.
The thing Craig did wrong, miss stein, is to be a total f...ing hypocrite; punish and restrict others when he does the same things.
Sad.
How can a guy who had a game show based on how smart he is say such completely STUPID, INSANE things?
I don't get it...
Ah.... you almost had me, but right there in your first line, you gave it away..... Ben Stein, COMEDIAN. Bueller? ..... Bueller? .....Bueller?
Have you ever taken anything this man has to say as worthwhile ?
The game show could have been "Ben Stein's Self-Respect". Except there would be nothing to win...
[deleted - save your blog whoring for open threads and stop misrepresenting the facts. If you're trying to get hits on your blog by starting something here, you've come to the wrong place.]
Perhaps he's not so wacko (on this issue). Any indication Craig was wavering on Iraq? That's what these guys appearently care about in the end-- a cash cow to create giant private equity funds for their friends.
If this was a Democrat would this guy say this? Hell, no!
He would not even care unless of course it made him laugh at the Democrat's stupidity.
Craig was given options: plead guilty or set up a court date. To suggest that Senator Craig is "simple folk" and did not understand his options is absurd. If this were true (it isn't) he should resign out of embarrasment of his ignorance of the most basic laws every American should know and understand. If you do not know this much about the law how can you be trusted to make laws? Isn't this what members of Congress (House and Senate) are elected to do?
Is this moron suggesting Craig is as stupid as he is? Or is he suggesting that we are as stupid as he wishes we were?
The outrage he pretends is an insult to people detained without charges and tortured without access to a lawyer.
Ben Stein (who i never even heard of until today) should go crawl back under his rock and never be consulted on a "NEWS" program ever again under any circumstances.
Is Ben Stein a libertarian or more of a typical right-winger? Just curious...
Angelo@16
I tend to agree with you. The problem is that the worst homophobes are almost always self-loathing closet cases themselves. That explains why Conservatives believe that sexuality is a matter of choice, not the way you are born. Because for them, it is.
deniz @ 19:
You are assuming he is intelligent enough to make a distinction. Use caution here.
Rufus Xavier Sasparilla @ 11:
Since when? Maybe I should remind you that CrooksAndLiars has regularly linked to Counterpunch articles. You haven't regarded them as "crap" before. It's not like it's the NRO. Was this an automated delete, or did someone actually take the trouble to read it? Are you taking the freeper route now? Please explain. Thank you.
Was Larry Craig soliciting gay sex? Given other reports of this in history, it seems likely. And given his hypocritical public persona, he got his just deserts in being exposed.
However, this supposed coded bathroom behavior (foot-tapping and hand gestures) seems to be an awfully thin reed to hang a prosecution on. "Gestapo tactics" may be an excessive term for this type of thing, but this does seem like police over-reaching. People who are otherwise civil libertarians shouldn't jump to applaud this type of thing when it harms those we don't like.
Given the fact that the Republican party encourages all sorts of excessive governmental intrusions, however, it's nice to see Republicans hoisted on their own petards.
(Incidentally, when Stein talks about the executive, I think he's talking about the Minnesota or Minneapolis executive branch, represented by the police department. Since Craig is a member of the federal legislature, this does seem a bit incoherent.)
...did someone have a "gestapo" talking point?
When they stop putting proven hacks like Kristol and Stein in front of microphones? I mean, how much credibility do these guys have left?
deniz @ 19:
Ben Stein did an op ed on CBS or NBC right after the Abu Ghraib torture scandal broke supporting the use of torture. He's a far right extremist. While I've heard people who claim to be Libertarian espousing such self-contradictory nonsense, he can hardly be classified as a true libertarian.
I think Angelo @16 and xoites @ 18 both make good points. Craig is the victim of homophobia he helped create and sustain, so there is some justice in his downfall. And of course you just know Stein wouldn't be defending Craig on Fox if Craig were a Dem. And ... just how freaking ridiculous is it for Stein to say Craig is, like Idahoans generally, simple folk and not wise to how the mean justice system works? Craig has a BA in poli sci and did some graduate studies, according to his official biography. And he's been a senator for years.That "simple folk" assertion is the easily the most risible part of Stein's remarks.
Craig pleaded guilty of a misdemeanor. He should not have been forced to resign. The voters should have been allowed to choose.
Stein's defense of Craig WAS pretty weird, and so was Pat Buchanan's, which I read in my local paper either yesterday or the day before. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that the executive branch may have been involved in bringing Craig down to change the balance of power in D.C. It's known that Bush was angry with Craig for joining with the Democrat filibuster against the permanent renewal of the Patriot Act. Bush referred to Craig recently at a meeting as "a goddamned traitor" and put the word out to the National Republican Senatorial Committee to recruit someone to run against Craig in 2008 (from Firedoglake).
How exactly did Craig's little legal problems end up in the public limelight after so many weeks, and how is it that it happened now, right before Labor Day weekend (slow news) and the return of legislators to Capitol Hill?
red eyes? dry eyes?
[deleted - see the commenting policy.]
I'm all for conservatives being rounded up and shut down in any way, but listen to the whiny policeman. There is, as far as I have heard, no good evidence of any wrong doing. Craig is probably a gay and a pedophile, but this incident is phony.
Oh good god, stop it, Ben! Jeez, what a little whiner.
If Ben Stein doesn't like these police actions, then why the hell is he a member of the political party which enjoys enforcing them?
I guess IOKIYAR and INOKIYNAR.
By the way, Ben Stein is the putz who is starring in a new piece ("Expelled") against Evolutionary science stating it is biased in research and its teaching in public schools, and that evolutionary scientists are persecuting the poor creationists. Needless to say, he has to twist reality to make it fit his persecution hypothesis.
http://stevereuland.blogspot.com/2007/08/expelled-no-intelligence-eviden...
His producers also lied about the name of the movie and its premise in getting people to interview for it.
Sounds like Ben has tapped his toes in a Twin Cities toilet.
http://www.crooksandliars.com
Oddly, I don't find that Stein is all that far off the mark. He was wrong about Trent Lott not deserving his fate, and probably wrong about the Executive Branch conspiracy theory (you can never tell with this White House), but otherwise, he made perfect sense: what Craig did SHOULDN'T have been a crime, the police WERE overreaching, the police DID have better things to do at the airport than set up stings in the men's room, and Craig WAS railroaded by his fellow Republicans. Even his Gestapo remarks had the ring of truth, if you remember that Hitler rounded up the gays as well as the Jews. Strip away the conservative veneer, and he was actually making a fairly liberal defense of Senator Craig.
23 Alawyer
I would be the last person to support the arrest of gay men trying to hook up in a public bathroom or bar or anywhere else. There may be an argument for entrapment, but if there was an argument why was it never made? What kind of Senator pleads guilty to something he is innocent of? That by definition is perjury. I have been arrested several times for civil disobiedience and every time i have plead guilty.
The judges involved always put me through the ringer.
"Do you understand you have the right to an atorney?"
"Do you understand the possible penalty for a guilty verdict?"
"Do you understand that if you enter a guilty plea you have no right to an appeal?"
Then the judge has the evidence against you aired, under oath, by the arresting officer.
You then MUST agree that what was said is the truth.
Then once again you are asked if you still want to plead guilty.
This takes several minutes, if you plead guilty and you ARE NOT guilty then you must be in a COMA!
He's just on to pimp his book....
Dude, this guy was peeking in the stall looking at that cop for quite a while too...
Damn....
I do agree that the police in the United States have alot better things to do than to police washrooms for homosexual activity. And the way the story was re-enacted it did look like to me to be entrapment.
But what do I know, I'm just a Canadian living in a country where no one really cares if youre a gay politician.
firehead @ 30:
Yes, we don't like criminals. If he had gone and rented a motel room he could do whatever he wants to whomever he wants, but he chose to do it in public.You repugs claim to support the police...until they catch one your elected perverts and then you throw them under the bus for doing their jobs.
What's delusional about Ben Stein's comments? Everybody's focusing on the hypocrisy of the Republican Party and the glee that some people have about a right-wing senator being taken down a notch. Yet if this had been a left-wing, Democratic senator, people on this site would have started screaming about gay rights and fascist police tactics. The fact is, Ben Stein is correct, the Senator did nothing illegal and his political beliefs and actions are (or should be) irrelevant to the discussion. What *is* relevant is that there is a general trend towards abusive police tactics in the U.S. There have been many posts on this site about police using questionable or illegal tactics on war protesters, whistleblowers, and the like, so, why is it all of a sudden not an issue when this pattern of abuse traps a GOP senator? At the end of the day, he's an American citizen, just like me and many of posters and commentators on this site and his rights were violated, which is something that should concern *all* of us, Republican, Democrat and independent alike.
He should stick to game shows and commercials, where he's actually semi-amusing. Anyone here about the new anti-evolution movie Stein is going to play the main character in? Should be a rollicking dumb time.
firehead @ 30:
Wrong. As usual.
We should all keep an eye on stein....after all the one that protests too much is usually the one who is involved what he protests about. Wouldn't it be nice to see this butthole caught in a tap three times if you want me in the bathroom.
This is Frankens good buddy ... back off buddy.
Is this Idiot for real?
Stein's defense of Craig is very suspicious. Very compassionate. Very much in denial. Could Stein be suffering the same problem as Craig? Supressed homosexual proclivities?
OK, It's official, Ben Stein is GAY! spread the word!
What is it with the wingnuts above who can't understand that the thing that is despicable about the event is not the homosexual trolling. It is the double standards Repubs have, and the hypocrisy and lies they use to condemn in others what they themselves have no compunction in practicing.
I mean it should be simple. I did not realize you had to be a rocket scientist to understand this.
Chris from Canada @ 39:
How would you like to send your kid into a public restroom and there are people in there screwing each others brains out. The problen isn't that he's gay it's that he broke the law. Yes the police do have better things to do, and they could do them if they didn't have to hang out in public toilets arresting repugnacan politicians.
I wonder how many bathrooms Ben Stein has cruised in.
Otay @ 49:
I forgot to add the most important thing: they have no compunction in making Draconian laws which they themselves have no plan to obey.
As Ben Stein himself would say in a monotone voice:
wow.
Ben like others has now allowed the world to know he's gay. Tucker Carlson talked so much he let it slip about himself now Ben is doing the same thing. I'm all for supporting a friend but these guys are giving to much information about themselves. Ben might go looking for that cute officer himself. Better hurry up I read the Officer is getting married in Oct.
firehead @ 30:
Yet another repub needing life explained to him because he apparently didn't get past the 5th grade. No liberal is saying being gay is wrong. They are saying that some idiot senator (who's been caught before but had it swept under the rug) that goes around writing and passing laws against gay people while exhibiting closeted gay tendencies deserves the same ire served to any other massive, divisive hypocrite like Ted Haggard, Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell.
Likewise, no liberal is claiming wrongdoing here (yet, let the facts play out), but we are just a little observant that Craig fell into a trap utterly by chance, and was not the victim of a massive nation-wide scheme by the police to entrap republican congressmen. It's also telling that Craig tried to throw his senatorial weight around after getting caught red-handed, and then plead guilty, and then claiming it was the heat of the moment that made him do it. Craig is phony, get over yourself and the insipid politcal opinions you've been fed, please.
As a frequent traveler, I'm much more freaked out about the possibility of a creep soliciting anonymous sex in a stall than I am of Al Qaeda. Airport bathrooms are already unpleasant places and I do everything I can to avoid number 2.
An undercover sting to stop this kind of behavior is a perfectly legitimate use of police resources. If Ben Stein is going to whine about Gestapo tactics, then how about mentioning the security lines at the airports. Confiscating bottled water, medicines, and uncompfortable body searches - thats the Gestapo reality at the airport.
ckerst @ 50:
How would you like to send your kid into a public restroom and there are people in there screwing each others brains out. The problen isn't that he's gay it's that he broke the law. Yes the police do have better things to do, and they could do them if they didn't have to hang out in public toilets arresting repugnacan politicians.
Since when does a democratic government arrest people for something they might have done in some hypothetical future? Do you really want our government going down that road more than they already have?
Stop focusing on the fact that he's a Republican senator. Focus on the fact that if law enforcement can do this travesty to him, what can they do to you?
The guy only hard two marbles left and he's lost them both...
I have nothing against anyone for being gay.
I do however find it repulsive to say someone is gay just because he may say wierd things. Ben may or may not be gay, but that is his business. I don't care. How can someone "officially" be gay? Is a license required? Do you have to take a test?
The issues around this entire incident tell me a lot about how screwed up this country is.
Oh c'mon. Let's be honest. When us men go into a public bathroom, moreover a stall, we are in and out as fast as possible. You know how it is in there. It's vile. Besides, no one makes eye contact, we jostle quickly around, wash our hands and bolt. All these things that Craig says he did in a stall: Wide stance, reaching down, etc., those are things that I have never done in a public restroom in my entire 37 years of living on this planet. If I drop something in a public bathroom that I really don't need: it stays on that floor, left behind. 'member that episode in Sienfeld? He walks into his appartment taking his belt off because it touched the floor of a bathroom saying, "Don't need THAT anymore!" and tosses it into the trash. Craig made it sound like he was moving in to that stall and getting cozy. *shudder*
Okay, and lets just say he accidentally touched another man's foot with his manly wide stance, he doesn't say "oh sorry, excuse me" and move his foot back. Sounded like a lingering foot to me.
Either way, Stein has no credibility anyway. Former Nixon speech writer, comic relief in an 80's classic movie, the name-sake on a game show in the 90's. Right, his outrage is so sincere.
buddhistMonkey @ 36:
Sorry monkey...
Sen. Craig: "I'm not gay" = I just plead guilty to soliciting strange men in a PUBLIC RESTROOM for sex and refuse counsel to charges waged against me because... I don't want the police man to reveal embarrassing facts?
Is it making sense yet?
And besides, Homeland security is a different law agency from the local police. The local police are NOT in charge of airport security, stop confusing the two and attempting to trump reality with FEAR.
Dear moderator,
Please contact me by email about the deletion of my comment. I think maybe your reaction was premature. Not only was my comment civil and respectful, the link was to a website with which you often agree. Could it be that you made a hasty decision, thinking wrongly that I was giving hits to a right-wing site? And finally, does that really matter? I hope you will not mind to take a small amount of your time to contact me. Thank you.
That's funny, I though Craig pleaded guilty. So how could he be railroaded?
Ben Stein pisses me off every time he speaks. Although, he should know something about gestapo tactics, since he and his party have supported these tactics for years. It's the conservative homophobia which has caused the push on the police to use these tactics to arrest gay people in conservative-controlled areas. So now, it's a case of blow-back, where it's nabbed one of their own, and butt-heads like Stein are appalled. If it had resulted in the arrest of some anonymous gay man, Stein would be the first to push for lynching him.
That being said, Stein is yet another conservative who wants to avoid the real issue of hypocrisy, in that Craig has been anti-gay for years, all the while denying his own homosexuality (or bisexuality).
If any railroading has occurred here, it has been done by conservatives. If Craig were a Democrat, he would not have to deny his gayness. He would be able to admit it and there would not have been a problem. He could have had his own private sexual relationships in the privacy of his own home without having to solicit partners in public restrooms.
By the way, I just want to emphasize; Ben Stein is an idiot.
Methinks the woman doth protest too much. Benny seems pretty emotional about this subject. Is he close personal friends with Lavatory Larry?
Funny as hell to see a reich-winger criticizing der Politzei.
Cops, like the military, tend to be conservative, not librul. Minnesota has a Repugnant governor too. Who are these Gestatz Polizei?
He goes off about the executive branch trying to intimidate legislators. Is he saying Chimpy set Craig up?
Benny has been hitting the medicinal reefer.
Just a quick ponder of the difference between how a politician can be when he doesn't have to worry about losing his job because he happens to love someone of the same sex. Scott Brison lives in a an extremely conservative area and yet I hear that it was a lovely wedding
Mike @ 4:
His wife knew what she was getting into when she married him. He was a guy who was shouting "I am not gay" when the first tickles about Mark Foley came to light long ago. He looked around his staff and saw a nice lady with 3 kids who was probably struggling to make it. So he married her. A marriage of convenience. Probably told her, in the privacy of the bedroom, that he was not highly sexed, so not to expect much. And being a nice and needy lady she accepted it. Yeah OK feel sorry.
One point that should not be missed. If this "argument" put forth by Ben Stein was made in a high school classroom his teacher would have failed him for lack of preparation, ignoring the facts and lack of logic.
Just wanted to make sure the below is read, as it illuminates Ben Stein's true character (that of a dissembling weasel for the religious right) :
Ben Stein is the putz who is starring in a new piece (”Expelled”) against Evolutionary science stating it is biased in research and its teaching in public schools, and that evolutionary scientists are persecuting the poor creationists. Needless to say, he has to twist reality to make it fit his persecution hypothesis.
http://stevereuland.blogspot.c.....ident.html
His producers also lied about the name of the movie and its premise in getting people to interview for it.
He is definitely not against the Draconian laws and desired laws of the religious right. He just pretends to be whatever is politically expedient for his cause and his own. If it were a Dem caught in the bathroom, he would have no problem stating something along the lines of:
What Ben would say if it were a Dem congressman:
In several counties across this nation, it is ILLEGAL to solicit sex in a public restroom.
For the defenders of Craig and Stein, remember the law trumps your argument. Change the laws, then plead your case. Until then, the laws were created to protect against unwanted sexual advances and harrasments...
Ahhhh...
Family values seem so, so... overrated at this stage.
I refuse to believe that denying anyone the ability to:
1) impose on your personal space
2) have or solicit sex in a PRIVATE space
... has anything to do with rights or homophobia.
People get this straight. Bathrooms are only CALLED public. For godsake THEY ARENT PUBLIC ... there is an undeniable expectation of privacy. I expect it ... no .... I DEMAND IT. And If I dont get it, I'm not going to:
1) Give someone a lecture
2) Pleade with them
3) Start a fight
... what I will do is CALL THE POLICE.
I have an expectation of privacy in a bathroom. STAYOUT. Keep your FEET OUT. Keep your SPYING EYES OUT. Keep your HANDS OUT.
How vulnerable are you with your pants around your ankles.
Are people nuts?
Two words to gays who want to hook up .... gay bar. Believe it or not, not everyone in a bathroom is gay.
ben stein is a terrible actor but as such he has a platform. in his reoccurring role as a teacher he embodies everything that the general public envisions is wrong with education. he is a stereotype who has never had any other kind of role other than playing someone as dry as dirt and with an intellect to match. consequently why should we listen to anything he has to say. please don't put him on c and l and give him any more publicity. dry as dirt with an intellect to match. an asshole who royalty needs his ass kicked.
Okay, and lets just say he accidentally touched another man’s foot with his manly wide stance, he doesn’t say “oh sorry, excuse me” and move his foot back. Sounded like a lingering foot to me.
_________________________________________________________________________________
How narrow can these stall be at this at this airport? How in the fucking hell can you actually touch the next stall neighbor foot with your own foot? Unless he was that desperate. I just feel sorry fot these type of human beings!
"Former Nixon Advisor" ...that should tell you everything you know about this prick Stein!
A couple of funny signs held by protestors over Sen. Craig
http://news.yahoo.com/photo/070901/480/5a279e50f9fd4ba0acd5c7f894a3bb54
Perhaps I spoke too soon. This is from a post at FDL:
Maybe Chimpy had something to do with this after all.
Max-1 @ 70:
You're thinking of the wrong family. When Republicans talk about "family values" they mean the Republican family!
no longer a proud american @ 72:
He isnt an actor. He is an economist to my knowledge. (He worked for Nixon)
Hey... look on the bright side: Fox labeled Craig as (R) and not (D) during this segment. :D
Guess you won't find gays in Al Qaeda...
[deleted]
Whether or not he committed the offense of which he is accused it remains true that Craig screwed the pooch by pleading, "Guilty." Even when one pleads to a lesser charge, the NCIC system carries the fact of both the original arrest charge and the conviction.
I'm getting my schadenfreude because I always thought he was a witch-hunting, gay-bashing scumbag from an area of the US known for this, and I am GLORIOUSLY amused that:
(1) A US Senator, who draws a very nice check from MY taxes and has a healtcare plan that I can never afford is too freaking dumb to fight a misdemeanor arrest that arises from a local police "setup"; and
(2) He's another deluded dipstick Wingnut who's been thrown under the bus by his fellow Brown Shirts.
Also, if my memory serves me correctly, isn't this the party that howled when gay sex was made legal by the Supreme Court? Isn't this also the party that persecutes gays and uses them as political scapegoat whenever they have to get the Clampetts out of church and into the voting booths? [deleted - we're not going there.]
Western @ 31:
How the hell is it phony? There are so many angles that "implicate" Craig in this:
- Staring through the stall door for TWO MINUTES in a PUBLIC restroom...Bob Allen anyone?
- The hand sweeping thing
- The foot tapping/touch (seriously, he's not a fat ass and it's not a workout; why do you need your feet spread 3.5' wide)
- Pleading guilty
- Saying to the press publicly he wanted it to go away
Why are you laying blame on the police officer for sounding "whiny"? Listen to the audio again; how does he sound whiny? How would you react if someone you (as an on-duty officer) caught red-handed lied and distorted about what you yourself witnessed them doing?
He was a Nixon advisor? Well jeez, that explains a lot.
See Ben, here's the thing. Say you and your family are flying off to Disneyland. You're waiting for the flight. Your son, Jimmy, little 7 year old Jimmy, has to pee. "Daddy, I gotta pee!" he says.
So you take him to the bathroom, so he can pee. After he's done, he hears something curious. He leans down to see, and in an unexpected bonus spectacular, he gets to watch Larry Craig gettin' funky.
See, it's a PUBLIC fucking bathroom.
But really, only a certain amount of privacy. Craig was counting on privacy. He expected it. But it IS a public bathroom. Public meaning limited privacy.
Ben Stein is proof that being rich can't cure Stupid.
Interesting. Has Ben been in any bathroom stalls lately????
The only people I see defending this type of behavior and claiming "gestapo tactics" are other closeted gay people. The outed gays I have seen commenting on this are even disgusted by this.
The policeman was in the bathroom because there had been complaints from citizens who had been harrassed or exposed to witnessing sex acts between men that they did not wish to see. Citizens have the right to go into public places and NOT have to see people engaged in sex acts like animals. What any adult gay or straight person does in the privacy of their own rooms, whether owned or rented, is their business and I don't think anyone should bother them, but for crying out loud, soliciting and engaging in sex in a public place is illegal for a reason. Having sex in a public toilet is like taking a crap in the middle of a restaurant.
If I am occupying a stall in a public restroom and a hand or a foot comes under the partition at me, someone is going to pull back a nub. I am in there for one purpose only. To do my business, wash my hands and get out of the damned bathroom.
BEN-GAY!
Ralph&David @ 88:
probably
The Republicans are kicking Craig out because it's politically safe for them to. If they kick him out, they can get the Republican gov of Idaho to appoint a new R senator and allow him time to entrench himself. Notice that they never called for Vitter's resignation, despite all their whining and crying when Clinton slept around. Why? Because they want to hold onto that seat, rather than letting the D gov of Louisiana appoint a D to the seat Vitter would have vacated.
It's all tactics, and no substance. Don't let the republicans fool you into thinking it's because they have a high moral standard. They're only doing this because it's expedient where the next election is concerned.
It's not the sex, it's the peering into the stall, over the divider.
no excuse for that.
Ben Stein = Typical right-wing "comedian". Not funny, boring and completely irrelevant. He could be Dennis Miller's father.
Exactly.
Max-1 @ 61:
No, Max, I'm afraid it isn't. The fact that Craig pled guilty is mostly irrelevant to the point Stein was trying to make, which is that Craig shouldn't have had to plead to anything, because what he did wasn't (or shouldn't have been) a crime. I tend to agree.
I'm not confusing the two, you are. What I said was: "...the police DID have better things to do at the airport than set up stings in the men’s room." It's a simple statement, really: nothing about Homeland Security, no attempts at trumping reality with fear, just my opinion that the police did have better things to do at the airport than set up stings in the men's room.
actually, billymon, he has been. Craig is from the Chenoweth wing of the Idaho party and Bush reportedly is seriously pissed off at him over it.
The improbable part, jmo, is asking anyone to believe that Ben Stein (who donated to Ralph Nader's presidential campaign in '04, facrynoutloud) is shocked, disturbed or offended by sleazy politics. He's the last diehard Nixon apologist.
Let's face it. Craig was a dimwit. If he did not really intend to proposition the cop for sex, all he had to do was state "Not Guilty". And the cop at that point would have nothing to prosecute him with. All he would have is inference.
After all, in my opinion there should not be a law to prosecute for what Craig did. I think even a public proposition, if it is discrete, should not be against the law - only public sex should be. Nevertheless, religious-right Repubs have been the ones making these laws, so how can I make the religious-right feel better about the stupid laws they have now subjected themselves to?
While Ben Stein is obviously taking Craigs' side in this for partisan reasons, I not willing to discount everything that Stein has to say. He isn't an idiot and I am willing to shed my hatred for republicans long enough to listen to an opposing oppinion. That said. I think I would be a little freaked out if someone did to me what Craig was accused of doing to the police officer. But then doesn't this call into question people who go to a bar to socialize and perhaps "pick up" a date? Maybe the laws need to be more refined so that this type of behavior in bathrooms remains illegal but you dont have police going out half cocked and ready to bust anyone who happens to tap their foot next to them.
oh, and [a number of people who got posts in while I was typing], Stein wasn't a Nixon advisor. His dad was. Stein was still a long-haired hippie back then.
railroaded, hell maybe the senator wanted to pull a train but he was far from railroaded.
but then again this is ben stein talking and we should take that into consideration, he has not proven to be the most astute judge of politics in america in a long time.
you just cant trust those hollywood repubes can you.
Just take a look at ben schtein......listen to his voice...and tell me he has all his marbles. I dare you. What a pathetic prick. "gestapo tactics"....lol. Give me a break.
buddhistMonkey @ 94:
Do you understand how our laws work or are you just playing stupid?
Will Everyone Please...Come out of the Closet. Congress is back in session in 36 hours.
typical wrong wing spin doctorin.........
Ben's an expert. Knows all about it. (like the part about comedian)
He's right though, gay sex is not illegal and it's wrong to equate the perversion of Craig with the normal gay lifestyle. This is not really about gay sex anyway. It's about a man who has been outspoken against gay people being a complete hypocrite. Karma is a bitch for Craig.
I wonder if Ben has spent any time in this same bathroom?
xoites defends Constitution @ 101:
Are you trying to make a point, or are you just being a jerk?
What entrapment? he solicited the cop.
julia @ 98:
Nope, he was. Well, he was a speech writer.
http://www.benstein.com/bio.html
MadMoll @ 107:
to add to my comment: did he just call the citizens of Idaho naive and stupid?
Re: #67
"His wife knew what she was getting into when she married him. He was a guy who was shouting “I am not gay” when the first tickles about Mark Foley came to light long ago. He looked around his staff and saw a nice lady with 3 kids who was probably struggling to make it. So he married her. A marriage of convenience. Probably told her, in the privacy of the bedroom, that he was not highly sexed, so not to expect much. And being a nice and needy lady she accepted it. Yeah OK feel sorry."
Good point but not Foley. He married after the page scandel in the '80's. Read Garry Studds the wingnuttia trope. He thought he needed a beard. Worked for 20 some odd years.
Russell Miller @ 5:
I thought he was very entertaining. Funniest thing he's done since Jimmy Kimball left his show.
Mr. Stein, isn't signing a false statement of guilt a crime, you know like perjury?
buddhistMonkey @ 106:
See 111 above.
Clear enough?
Damn Hollywood liberals and their bad moral values!
I mean except Ronald Reagan, Charlton Heston, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Bo Derek, Bruce Willis, Fred Thompson, Fred Grandy, Brittany Spears, Pennis Miller and Ben Stein.
-GSD
What do you expect from Ben Stein? I mean, really.
He's a shitty, one-note actor (dweeb teacher in 'Ferris Bueller' and 'Wonder Years' - his one role, repeated over and over), unfunny comedian, and wrote speeches for Nixon through the Watergate scandal. Enough said.
The big giveaway for me in the Craig thing was something no one else, to my knowledge, commented on:
Whe Craig was in the stall making hand and foot signals to the undercover cop, HE RAN HIS FINGERS ALONG THE BOTTOM OF THE STALL DIVIDER.
I mean, who does that? Even clean men's rooms have piss-spray on the side of cubicles. Lots of guys stand-up pee in the stalls instead of using the urinals. In many bathrooms I've been in, the dividers are rusted from the corrosive pee-pee residue. I'd NEVER willingly touch the lower edge of the toilet dividers - especially if I were wearing a suit, as Craig was. If you do that, you are getting OLD PISS from STRANGERS on your HANDS.
YECCCHHHH.
Craig must have been desparate for some furtive man-nookie. Why else stroke the edge of the cubicle wall?
Pardon Larry Craig!
-GSD
Buckets full here today.
Police should enforce all of the laws. If there was a warning on a hookup site then it must be a regular place to hookup. Would be interesting to see all of Craig's internet activity to see if he hits the hookup sites. When people file complaints the police will usually check them out. 40 plus arrests at this hookup spot. The complaint must have been valid. After this much activity I will side with the cop that he knew what was happening.
Just like on predator, Craig knew when he was caught. He wanted out of there asap and for the least legal record. I am sure the people on predator would be a good source for feedback on this incident. No one can convince me that Craig was a victim. All of the talk about, if this was a democrat is hogwash.
As for being railroaded by his own party, this is crap. What do you expect them to do? There may still be some republicans with a brain that are really getting sick of the image of disgusting behavior that party members are doing. Last election scandal played a major role. I know that there are a lot of disgusting republicans but they still want to win. I think a lot of us can agree that there are more to come to the light. I am looking forward to it. Come on Larry Flint. Any time now. I think people who do these things are most likely to be scum in areas that count for the rest of us. I have thought that Americans are becoming to ghoulish these days. Isn't it nice to see that their lies about the war and other things are made irrelevant by their disgusting personal behavior?
You forgot Steven Baldwin. Why do conservative actors have less talent?
and 114, the kid from Growing Pains.
Swashbuckler @ 108:
Really? Wow.
I guess the hiring program for underemployed sons of was in place even back then.
MadMoll @ 107:
When Craig tapped his foot, the cop tapped back. There's a good chance that if the cop hadn't responded to Craig's "gay code," the incident wouldn't have progressed any farther than foot-tapping. Maybe that's not definitional entrapment, because the cop didn't initiate the foot-tapping, but it seems awfully close to me.
Now, if the cop hadn't tapped back, and Craig continued with the bumping shoes and the probing hand, then I'd say he was guilty of lewd — or at least unwanted — behavior. But the cop signaled him that that kind of behavior wasn't unwanted. In that context, the things that Craig did were no worse than a man in a bar who winks at a woman — who winks back at him — and then sends a drink over to her table.
ec1009 @ 119:
He's nuts!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4
Stein is correct in that since when is tapping your foot in the bathroom against the law? Since when can one get arrested for odd & strange behavior that did not include soliciting for sex?
What is up with the Republicans? I'm beginning to think that GOP means "Gay Old Perverts." It isn't really about homsexuality, it is about very strange sexual behavior for either straights or gays. Not a heck of a lot of people look for their next romantic adventure in a bathroom stall or with a teenage page. I don't think that any of my friends (gay or straight) are nearly as, um, "adventurous" as these ancient old geezers we call our Republican Congressmen.
Is it something in the air in Washington? That might explain a lot.
It's amazing this is the level of public discourse in America. I had no idea about Stein's politics when he was on "Win Ben Stein's Money". Since then, I've learned about his philistine attitudes, although he did write something in the NY Times maybe 8 months or a year ago about how unregulated capitalism might just hurt a couple of people.....but really, I think he drank a lot of Kool-Aid before he went on the air here.....because wow.....absolutely no nuance, no regulation....he is totally out-of-touch and bingeing on talking points and myths.....this is not 2001 Ben Stein and this is not Win Ben Stein's Money. Geez. And Cavuto doesn't press him one time. He could have talked about fellating Cavuto and then revealing publicly that Ann Coulter doesn't have just one, but two dicks.....and I don't think Cavuto would have blinked. Oooh, fair and balanced my friends, fair and balanced....
buddhistMonkey @ 121:
Nope!
Wrong again!
If a man drives up to an undercover policewoman and solicites sex it is not "entrapment."
You never even watched a cop show?
Since when is making a phone call against the law? It is if you are soliciting a prostitute. He apparently engaged in a well known pattern in a place that has already had 40 arrests for such behavior (also sticking his hand under the next guy's stall, etc.)
Now perhaps it should be OK for men to solicit each other in a restroom, but let's not pretend that he was doing anything else.
Swashbuckler @ 77:
Ahhh...
That's correct. It's all one big Party to them.
Doh!!!
buddhistMonkey @ 121:
By this definition, complaints by citizens of prostitution occurring on my corner and investigated buy a female officer dressed up like a hooker with a back up arresting squad is entrapment. Mom the dog ate my home work doesn't wash in the real world.
xoites defends Constitution @ 3:
xoites defends Constitution is my hero of the week. He?/she? nailed the problem with Stein's defense of Craig.
GSD @ 114:
.....and Gary Sinise and wackjob Johnny Malkovich...whose politics are truly incoherent....
"In that context, the things that Craig did were no worse than a man in a bar who winks at a woman — who winks back at him — and then sends a drink over to her table."
The behavior also included (he pled guilty so I don't have to allege) peeking into the restroom stall. Quite a bit different than winking at a woman at a bar.
Glinda @ 131:
S
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing as I was listening to him. All of a sudden he's concerned with the use of police resources........so of course that witch-hunt of Bill Clinton's penis must have been a great, great, waste of gub'mint resources, right? Right? Right? Hello? Is this thing on? And perhaps Stein will be pressing every day now for the capture of Osama Bin Laden? Right? Right? No? So......how about them Dodgers?
Glinda @ 131:
Thank you. Male (taken :) ) by the way.
GSD @ 114:
Yeah, the whole Hollywood Liberal thing is an utter absurdity.
Like Rupert Murdoch and the other sharks who own and run the entertainment/media companies are a bunch of lefty bleeding-heart socialists.
What bullshit.
I think that Ben Stein is trying out a new act.
Swashbuckler @ 122:
Thanks, Swashbuckler. I just spent, like, 10 minutes trying to figure out if the argument made in that vid was a joke or intended seriously. Serious, right? Man, Kirk Cameron and his ilk ARE nuts.
xoites defends Constitution @ 113:
Yes, your point was perfectly clear. It also had nothing to do with what I was saying.
For the record, too, I don’t need your snide tone or your insults. And if you’re going to call someone stupid, you damned sure better be able to figure out how to use the spelling checker (it’s “embarrassment,” “disobedience,” “attorney,” “weird,” and “submitted,” genius man).
Again the staff at C&L Show how they have the inside track on,,,,,everything. Thank goodness we have these guys?,,, who know everything about everything.
buddhistMonkey @ 138:
kant spel bud i kin think.
I never called you stupid i asked you if you were playing stupid.
Reading is fundamental.
this is hilarious!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=red+state+update+craig
Is that one of their "comedy bits" from the 1/2 hour news hour? Oh, wait, that show got cancelled cuz it sucked. Guess it's just always "good times" over at Fux.
Ben's not stupid. He knew he had no good argument to make, but he also knew that's not going to make a difference to your average Fox viewer. Spin doesn't have to be logical to be effective.
ghostofstanleyknowles @ 137:
Re: Ben Stein
Nobody ever said senile dementia was pretty. Nobody ever said Ben Stein was pretty, either.
buddhistMonkey @ 121:
There’s something to be said for this.
What’s the difference? A man sees a woman at a bar and sits across from her. He winks at her. She winks back. He moves closer and brushes her leg with his. He buys her a drink, she smiles and soon they end up leaving – AND HAVE SEX! Ok, what if the encounter was at a Burger King? Or an airport waiting area? Were these actions lewd and lascivious? Lecherous even? Probably not.
What if the same thing happens at the bar, but between two men? They exchange coded little signals, one responding to the other, and then they leave AND HAVE SEX! Is it worse if this exchange is made between two adult men at Burger King, or in the public men’s room at the airport? Even if neither actually engaged in sex, or exposed themselves in view of the public?
Think about exactly what took place. One guy, seeing another, thought he might like to have sex. He used his coded signals to ask. The other guy essentially said “Yes” and then he was arrested.
Now I’m not condoning any public sex acts, I’m not commenting on Craig’s homosexual proclivities, nor even on the hypocritical actions of Craig. I’m asking what this exchange hurt anyone? I tend to think that if someone sat in the men’s room stall next to mine and tapped his foot, I wouldn’t be raising mine up and down seductively. And if he brushed up against my foot, I would move it. Coded message….”no”. And most likely, it would stop there. Should the guy be arrested for these actions? Probably not.
And as a side note, I am really offended by the “Catch a Predator” shows. Not because these guys think they’re going to have sex with a 13 y/o girl, which is bad enough. I’m offended by the celebration of vigilante justice. It’s more important with these shows that they actually “catch” a predator, than stop the predation. They set up scenarios whereby they can film these men to sell commercial-time, instead of actually trying to stop the activity. There’s something just a perverse in these actions as with the guys who think they’re going to have sex with a 13 y/o.
Linda @ 28:
This is a very good comment. It makes me think that this whole thing wasn't an accident.
I think the guy, if gay, should be called on his hypocracy, but arrested for foot tapping... what's up with that? Maybe it WAS a sting... aimed directly at Craig.
[...] in February, but right now he’s building the excitement by making television appearances and demonstrating that he is a raving lunatic. Yeah, this is exactly the guy I want as the spokesman for Intelligent Design [...]
xoites defends Constitution @ 140:
Sorry for the misunderstanding. Just so there's no confusion on my side, when I asked if you were just being a jerk, what I really meant was, "you're being a jerk."
You still are.
I'm going out on a limb here and say that I agree that Craig was entrapped and railroaded. Because he dared to disagree with Little Boots.
These people currently In Charge are the f oulest of the foul, and they will stop at nothing - nothing - to maintain control of us all on behalf of their corporate overlords.
I'm thinking Crag got a raw deal.
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