Hardball: The Assault On Free Speech In America
On Tuesday's Hardball, Joe Conason from The New York Observer and Medea Benjamin, co-founder of Code Pink had a lot to say about Monday's controversial tasering of a University of Florida student and go in depth about the state of free speech, or lack thereof, in America today. The discussion of free speech zones and political expression took an interesting turn when Benjamin claimed to have been pulled out out of a Hillary Clinton rally for wearing a shirt that read "Troops. Home. Now."
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Benjamin: "I got pulled out of a Hillary Clinton rally for wearing this shirt."
Matthews: "No."
Benjamin: "Yes."
Matthews: "Pulled out of the rally --
Benjamin: "Pulled out of the rally."
Matthews: "Who were the pullers?"
Benjamin: "She has goons, just like the Republicans have goons and they drag you out of there and they say, no signs other than the signs that we hand to you. The Republicans and the Democrats do the same thing."
8)
Good for Hardball for having this discussion. Next they should address the abuse of the Taser by cops in this country.
there's no difference between bush and hillary. just watch and see if she gets elected.
of course they do the same things.
they both answer to the same polls, handlers and corporations.
DUH-Shit.
As much of a boob as Andrew Sullivan is, he said that Hillary reminded him of Nixon. The secrecy and all that. When was the last time most politicians hobknobbed with the unwashed masses? Even most of the campaign appearances are limited to donors or those that volunteer.
NOW HERE’S THE KIND OF ‘FREE SPEECH’ THAT SHOULD BE TASERED
I saw that and it is ridiculous that anyone - including the present administration and future wanna-bes - try to control the voices (and clothing) of their supporters
“The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies – one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left – is a foolish idea. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can throw the rascals out at any election without leading to any profound or extensive shifts in policy. The policies that are vital and necessary for America are no longer subjects of significant disagreement, but are disputable only in detail, procedure, priority, or method.”
Carroll Quigley, Tragedy & Hope
wait, the dems have goons and are just as bad as the republicans? who woulda thunk it?
This all reminds me of the line from The Clash's "Know Your Rights" when the brilliant Joe Strummer wrote-- You have the right to free speech. Just as long as you're not dumb enough to actually try it!
Of course both parties do it. It's called "staying on message," and it's sui generis to any political strategy. If a protestor disrupts the party, that takes the politico off message.
Considering that Rev. Lennox Yearwood was tackled for wearing a button saying "I love the people of Iraq" at the Petraeus hearing... I'm not surprised.
I saw something like this yesterday on the NBC Evening News. They mentioned Sally Field being bleeped out at the Emmies, and the tasering in Florida, but then had to insert a story no one heard of, of a man trying to give a pro-war speech at the lectern of an anti-war demonstration.
On top of that the male anchor asked the female anchor what she thought, and she responded like maybe the kid who got tasered had it coming.
The idea of tasers armed cops were sold in Dallas as the last non-lethal way of diffusing a situation since choke holds were killing people, and cops only use guns to kill. They were never intended to become just another way of taking someone down.
Apparently the only difference between Hillary and Bush is that she, uh, has a bush.
Rejoice America! At last, all your decisions will be made FOR you.
"Tasering people because they're obnoxious."
I've watched several versions of that video by now, and the guy just didn't seem that "obnoxious" to me. Excited, maybe. But never rude... at least not in any of the footage I saw.
Come to think of it, rushheads, and malkinkins have been making death threats against Hillary, so she does have a security detail. However, that's not like local party officals misrepresenting themselves as security or police pulling dissenters out of boosh's rallies.
It appears that Hillary is as much of a narcissistic control freak as Our Dear Leader. How refreshing!
Seriously, Hillary is the ultimate beltway insider. Same tactics. Same results. Same big money. Same beholdin'.
ysbaddaden @ 17:
HRC has Secret Service protection for the rest of her life, being married to an ex-President.
Are they going by this Code Pink's word alone? How does she know these are Hillary "goon squad" and not counter demonstrators?
Also, was she tasered or any way roughed up? If not that almost makes it almost irrelevant.
Sounds to me like she's trying to make Code Pink more relevant and edgier-seeming instead of the auntie-war comelatelies.
“She has goons, just like the Republicans have goons and they drag you out of there and they say, no signs other than the signs that we hand to you. The Republicans and the Democrats do the same thing.”
VERY sad, if true.
20 Joe Klein’s conscience
They've amped it somehow since the threats.
That Hillary has goons that remove people from rallies is an extremely promising and happy sign.
Next, I hope she loses the general election, but takes office anyway. Then I want her to go on to direct the most corrupt and incompetent administration in the country's history. I want her to conduct her affairs with a secretiveness and a maliciousness that shocks even her most ardent supporters. And when she starts having her political enemies "disappear" to secret CIA prisons I'm going to get out my checkbook for her reelection campaign.
Pinochet's America
I smell GOP agents provocateur.
Rusty, the first quarter of the show yesterday was about tasers and the event in Gainsville. No one supported what was done to the student and they questioned what was happening in our country. It was a positive and good discussion.
Did they have "goons" when Bill used to speak at gatherings?
Rollo Tomassi @ 15:
Freedom of choice... is what you got.
Freedom from choice... is what you want.
Democans & Republicrats.
Two sides of the same coin.
No matter which side you choose, the result is the same; politicians are all corporate puppets, bought and sold a dozen over or more, and they're taking money out of the public's pockets and putting it into their own.
Even when you think you're selecting the lesser of two evils, you're still choosing evil.
Swashbuckler @ 22:
why would you doubt what she said?
I knew we were losing the right to free speech.
I didn't know that people were now being banned from traveling to certain public places. I think we can expect to see more restrictions on this front. There is talk of restricting visits to Federal Property like National Parks, IRS offices and Federal Courtrooms to people who have valid passports. If that passes. We can expect that passports will become restricted also.
As we slide down the peak oil slope, rationing of certain items like gasoline will likely depend on party affiliation.
We are becoming the USSR.
tasered are not non lethal. We had a man killed by a cop with a a taser this year in baltimore. That lethal force can be used in this situation is insane.
http://granitegrok.com/pix/question%20by%20Rockwell.jpg
imagine the man in this Norman Rockwell illustration being tasered. No one thinks this man is standing up because he agrees with government, the whole point of free speech is to express disagreement. Thats what makes
C'mon people. There's PLENTY of opportunities for free speech in America. Ya just gotta do it right...
(obligatory blogwhore: http://freewayblogger.blogspot.com )
Your right, ysbaddaden,
unless you've had you head cracked open, you have'nt been oppressed. And waterboarding is not torture, and neither are "stress "positions, in the nude, with electrodes on your nuts.
I am sure you can show us some quality oppression, huh??
Ys (21), those same thoughts ran through my mind. I would like a little more confirmation on what the code pink lady said. Has it happened to anyone else at a Hillary, or for that matter any of the other Dem candidates, gatherings?
Blue Buddha @ 12:
yep! goons in congress and the senate!
richard roe @ 29:
I think Michael Moore put it once: "You're choosing between the evil of two lessers."
I've been trying to tell you people for sometime now.
The Bush's and Clinton's are friends. Research Bill Clinton's involvement with BCCI, The Contra cocaine and Iran Contra. Mena Arkansa and Barry Seal.
Most of the Democrats and Most of the Republicans. Left foot Right foot and their agenda keeps on moving.
You just can't fit a round peg into a square hole.
We are all round pegs, don't you see?
What is wrong with my ears, Chris was defending free speech? I couldn't believe what I was hearing in this interview. He sounded like he was sincere too. Shit! Maybe he see Keith's ratings and is figuring something out.
Conyers? What did Code Pink lady say? Does Conyers really kick them out? I was not shocked about Hillary Clinton's goons. I am sick of this too! I posted yesterday;
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
I no longer recognize this country. Democracy and freedom are dead.
pissed off patricia @ 35:
If it happened to Medea Benjamin at a Hillary Clinton rally, I find it hard to believe there isn't video of it out there somewhere.
The assault on free speech isn't just in schools, but in public life. People who dare ask questions are "assumed" to be up to "no good." The problem is when a simple question is used, incorrectly, as the basis to "charge" someone with being up to "no good."
The real issue is that had there been no videotape, the security at the university would likely have lied about what happened; and misrepresented the events, putting the burden on the student to defend himself against false charges. America has turned into the land of baseless accusations and the shifting of burden of proof. This is a needed wakeup call: America's security institutions are not adequately overseen, and have mandates they are not competent to manage, handle, or properly perform. This leads to abuse. The end result is more abuse of innocent people and intrusions into their private lives. This was foreseeable: When US troops get deployed, there are fewer people stateside to competently backfil the police functions and lower level security requirements.
Thank you Congress and George Bush for your recklessness in mismanaging this Iraq war. Where is DOJ OPR on this investigation; and when will Congress broadly review the incompetence. Federal funding goes to local security through transportation and DHS/DOJ Grants. Congress has a role.
Rally Squads = Brown Shirts
We've heard and seen several examples of people being pulled from areas where bush was going to speak. The people who had bumper stickers on their car that the bush "goons" didn't approve of, the couple wearing the t-shirts that were pulled too. Hell Chris showed the handbook that told who they should get rid of before a bush speech. This code pink lady is the only case I've heard of where someone was told to leave a hillary speech. Are there others?
I went to a Clinton fundraising bash in NY (2006). Code Pink was there, positoned at the corner and at the tail end of the queue (it wasnt very long). I chatted with them for a few minutes. Very idealistic, which is greatly to their credit but also a bit of a practical liability at times. I told them I agreed with their principles but I was supporting Clinton out of political pragmatism (I've given no money to her since--she's got quite enough!).
I was inside the venue when Clinton arrived. Her security detail was very small (two guys--maybe three)--smaller than I expected for a wealthy Senator/former Fisrt Lady. There was one uniform cop, who did nothing but watch. No press evident. Code Pink was not hassled there (that I saw).
Venue/location may have a lot to do with the behaviour of security and police. I could have walked into that venue with a gun--there was no patting-down or metal detectors at all. I don't doubt that Medea Benjamin has been hassled by security sometime or sometimes, but here use of "goons" and her drawing an equivalency with the Republican m.o. strikes me as a stretch.
Still, the issue is there, and Code Pink is there fighting the good fight for a universal and vital principle.
I went to a Kerry rally before the last election. While Bush was requiring loyalty oaths, anyone was let into the Kerry rally.
I don't want to think that Hillary Clinton is copying Bush's tactics.
It seems more and more our dear leaders don't want any unpleasantness - like being forced to hear out their public on issues.
The police need to be reminded over and over again that dissent is an American right. And all too often, those who have the strongest views on issues and act on those views are our children. Too often it seems like the police in their riot squad gear feel disappointed if they can't crack some heads and have to push people around to stir up some excitement.
Face it people, we are NOT free.
"Keeping slaves," they argued, "required accomodation, food, medicine, hospitalization..." In effect a kept slave necessitates similar expense and treatment accorded to the best 'yoked' animals in our business stables and pastures. The employed serf ('wage-slave') can be dismissed at will, works for a pittance under duress, feeds and clothes his family, will happily pay us three times for a mortgaged house over a generation, and will be totally dependent upon the 'Owners of Capital' for his continued mutual survival."
Please God not Hillary. She meets with Murdoch and Bill Clinton spends more time riding around in a golf cart with Bush 41 then Bush 41's own sons do. That should tell you something right there.
GalfromCal @ 40:
You haven't been watching Tweety in the past few months... his head asploded. One day, he's defending Bush, the next day he's back in the reality based community. But it's probably a good thing you haven't been watching him lately, because the way he's weaving back and forth, you'd need some Dramamine. :(
SAD
We have no candidate who will truly represent the people except possibly Edwards, and he's no sure thing.
Bush - Clinton - Bush - CLINTON????
Come on, lets break the pattern with an Edwards, an Obama, or Jim Webb.
If you really think that any of the front runner Dems will immediately stop the War, you're drinking blue Kool Aid.
We are being hustled.
Example: Clinton health-care plan. Give the insurance thieves a new profit center and they pretend to be against it. Then we pass a crummy bill and screw the people again. Here it comes!
We need Universal Health Care paid with TAX DOLLARS, not on the backs of business.
NO INSURANCE COMPANY PROFITS IN HEALTH CARE....PUT THEM BACK IN THE LIFE INSURANCE BUSINESS.
Holy hell!! That kid that got tasered did NOT have his free speech violated! Stop spinning it that you you retards! He violated the forum rules, was asked nicely to go, shooed the cops, they started escorting him (after his free speech was done), and then we know what happened.
Free speech is "what he said" not what he wasn't allowed to say after his time expired or after he was in cuffs and tazed. If anyone would be a candidate of silencing his free speech it was the tech who cut his mic or the moderator who made rules limiting his time speaking...but hardly the police.
You guys make me sad to be a liberal.
Where is it written that we have to elect politicians? Isn't there anyone in the private sector that we could find to break the political lock on the presidency?
Patthemokey @ 53:
Cheney's about to retire.
The new logo for the University of Florida
http://www.photopixels.com/portraits/images/Reddy%20Kilowatt.jpg
Patthemokey @ 53:
Blackwater has a number of well-qualified presidential-types.
Bholland @ 51:
I think that's called Windex.
Chris, it seems like your finally getting it and coming around to reporting on some very important issues we face.
Although I think Bush mastered the screening of political town halls with pre written queastions to the town hall people. It is fascist and Bush wanted to portray all the support and thought it would muzzle those that disagreed.
Remember Bush's Social Security campaign across the nation. Bush was paying people to show up and ask prepared questions. Odd enough Bush would have the prepared questions prepared answer. But it was seeen through and our media was failing us over that.
So when Democrats have crownd control goons as the Republicans. I suggest that the Republican payroll provides for Democratic distubances. Still no excuse for tasering someone.
Politicians better understand that they have been trying to over rule a nations people and going against the Nations will. Like removing civil rights in the name of freedom. America is no doubt angry and our politicians best confront this anger. Not order us away or muzzle us..............................
Weaseldog @ 31:
Chertoff gave the example of access to a national park when pitching the REAL-ID system a couple of weeks back, suggesting that if you didn't have a REAL-ID compliant ID (as a number of states are rightly questioning the effectiveness of the system), you would need a passport to enter a national park. (And U.S. passports now come with RFIDs, so they're already integrated into the surveillance state.)
But it's far more insidious than getting into Yellowstone National Park. They could use the REAL-ID excuse for any government service, state borders (especially with some states resisting the change), and we'll eventually have to show our IDs just to open our mouths (even in a 'free speech zone,' it's the ultimate goal of the surveillance state to know who is speaking out).
Mugsy @ 16:
Agreed. The real question here is -- Why can't six cops subdue an unarmed suspect who isn't posing a threat to them or himself without resorting to a taser? Isn't that kind of admitting that they are worthless as law enforcement officials?
This issue (and similar ones yet to come) may be what finally gets complacent college-age people off their ass and into the political fray.
Code Pink has the absolute right to a total F-ing embarassment to the left. As John Stewart said on his regular segment...You're Not Helping.
Al B Tross @ 34:
Are we discussing our personal lifestyles now?
ironchef @ 52:
Piffle.
I actually am shocked by this, although my wife isn't. Yeah, I know it is one of our taglines that Hillary is no different than Bush but my god -- this is pretty shocking. I had hoped that Bush was an abberation that we would get over.
As the clip says -- look at Iraq. That is practice for what is coming here. Consider that much of the "security" is being done by private armies like blackwater with no accountability to anybody other than the CEO and you can see what is coming.
I have always figured that we must nominate someone other than Hillary because she can not win -- and it is imperitive for a Democrat to win in order to restore our rights. However, if what the woman here alleges is true then I don't even think that I would want Hillary to win even if she could.
This is pretty depressing.
Simon White-Thatch Potentloins @ 60:
Yep. Those were shitty cops. They deserve to be fired, and probably sued.
Actually, this is becoming common place at events other than political rallies. I was in an auditorium with 500 people at an amatuer comedy night. Most of the performers were great but one sucked. I booed once, and the guard told me if I did it again I'd be asked to leave.
Total crowd control from start to finish.
We as Americans do not live in a "FREE" Country. Oh, you would like to think you do. As our civil liberties, free right to speech and peaceful protest, as our country is becoming a Dictatorship, we do nothing. As the rich become richer, the middle class slowly dwindling, our food supplies and trickets come from third world countries, our jobs are being outsourced, people are losing their homes by record numbers, as our economy is slowly deterioating, as our elected officials bankrupt our government, we do nothing.
I will not vote for Hilary Clinton, she is a goon. Look at her voting record and that will tell the story. You believe she will serve this country better than Bush? Think again!!!
Americans wake up!!! Lets stick together and get our country back before it is too late. Mark my word..if we don't do something now, to save democracy, the right wingers, the goons will be there to take our freedoms away.
OK, I think we all should stop saying that our country is GETTING worse day by day.
I say its time to say that fascism is here and now. For how worse does it have to get before we say we are fascist? We can't even wear certain T-Shirts anymore now?
Fuck this, we are fascist and its time to admit it. WE ARE A FASCIST NATION.
ironchef @ 52:
why are you calling people 'retards' for not agreeing with your non-liberal, authoritarian POV?
ironchef @ 52:
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
-- King George the XLIII
Since when does breaking the rules at a public forum justify the use of a taser?
I'd always thought the taser was a non-lethal alternative to having to draw your service pistol and park a couple in the subject's ten-ring, not a convenience for subduing a loud-mouthed college student.
By the way, if free speech is 'what you say' and not 'the manner in which you say it,' then I assume you like the idea of free speech zones?
Free speech is freedom of expression, not marching in a single-file line like a bunch of zombies. Your world would have anyone who dared to dance a step or two rather than trudge get tasered for their misbehavior.
I guess its a good thing the cops had a taser, otherwise they probably would have shot him!
I agree the kid was obnoxious and behaved like a self-important jerk, but as Donald Rumsfeld once said, "Freedom is untidy." I think there were other ways to handle him other than violence. Rachel Maddow said on Countdown yesterday that the cops should have been better trained to handle these kinds of people who are at every open political forum.
This is just something new we all have to get used to.
The taser is now a viable form of communication.
It can be used to communicate phrases like:
"Stop talking."
"Your time is up."
"I don't agree with you."
as well as many others.
Biggus Diggus @ 72:
And the thing is, these were university cops. You'd think that of all people they'd know how to handle a disruptive college kid safely and competently. But not so much.
and dozens of others saying the same thing.
So just don't vote - they're all the same.
Or find a third party that won't draw 1% of the total and vote for them. But wait - should they get elected, they be corrupted within months.
So - just don't bother to vote, American Idol is way more important, but don't tell anyone you're glued to it watch Simon trash someone for a cheap laugh. Or gnash your teeth over all the print that's wasted on Spears and Lohan.
But shriek about Hillary or Barack or John or Bill or anyone toi the left of Rudy and tell people they're all the same.
Then cry copious tears when Fred Thompson is installed by Scalia after another 50:50 election.
Will the left never learn? perfection is a myth.
Holy Heil!!
Hillary is running the most contrived calculated campaign ever. This should come as no surprise to anyone. I hope it backfires because she is the least likely Democrat to win the general election. The sooner the DEMs toss her to the curb and concentrate on someone that can win, the better. Hillary is the medias choice and the DLC/Beltway choice. The voters across this country want to win and they don't want Hillary.
Curtilingus @ 71:
That's what folks were saying yesterday. They said tasering him was better than putting a bullet through his head.
That is the choice if you break the forum rules. Tasering or execution.
Arizona @ 68:
Absolutely 100% spot on, Arizona!
The Republicans and the Democrats do the same thing???? NOoooooo. Reeeaallyy??
Medea Benjiman is an idiot. I had an email conversation with her about her lavish praise of Comrade Chavez, and well, I was not impressed. However, I do support her and Taze Bro in their right to free speech. Kerry once again shows backbone after the fact...
Freakaloin @ 3:
Sheesh, I thought the whole Naderite "not a dime's worth of difference" meme was dead and gone.
I'm no fan of Hillary (she's at the bottom of my list of preferred Democratic Presidential candidates), however if you think that Hillary would nominate mouth breathers like Sam Alito to the Supreme Court or appoint unqualified cronies like "Brownie" to important government posts, then I have a bridge in Brooklyn you can buy.
"Fair and Balanced" Dave @ 82:
My God, some of you guys have really short memories.
The abridgment of free speech in the United States is becoming a crisis, along with every other thing the regime of BushCo has touched.
It is no longer acceptable to be silent in comparing this atmosphere to the atmosphere that existed in Germany, when Hitler was grooming the populace for a dictatorship.
The free speech that the college student was engaging in happens and should continue to happen on college campuses across the country.
John Kerry walked away without a fight, and our country was put in the hands of a wannabe dictator.
We deserve an explanation...or history will repeat itself.
ironchef @ 52:
You just used the word "retard" in a conversation. Who cares what else you think?
"You just used the word “******” in a conversation. Who cares what else you think?"
You got that right.
Yet another reason to write in Kucinich!
RIP, Bill Hicks.
Actually, it's corporations that are in control, not government.
Frank Zappa said, "Politics is the entertainment branch of industry", and it's true. Government is the tail and Wall Street is the dog. So of course HRC and all the other Dem candidates for Preznit are all just part of the same corporate-backed farce.
But it's turning around. We in the grassroots are taking back the Democratic party, and there's definitely a difference between the parties. In a generation or so, we can win.
See, one party at least tries to make an attempt at looking like they're trying to do the right thing.
The other doesn't give a fuck.
I'll vote for, and support, the one that at least makes an effort at it.
By the way, if you think HRC is wrong and Benjamin is right, then don't bitch about Clinton, join Code Pink, show up to rallies and protests, write letters, send money, get involved. They're great people and they do great work (and they're not all women, IIRC, so guys can get involved too, if you don't mind wearing pink).
ironchef @ 52:
YOU make me sad to be a liberal. That kid was not a physical threat to anyone.
richard roe @ 29:
These are the exact words of RN.
That's why I voted for Ralph Nader. Democrats keep voting for Democrats(DINO), expecting different results. Yes, I know...he is unelectable...ONLY IF YOU KEEP VOTING FOR DINO'S LIKE Hillary.
THE WAR ON WAR!.
I relocated to this country in 2000 because I thought this country was wonderful
Like a diamond this country is still great, it is just in the wrong hands now.
America is a corporate capitalistic country and it is time to fire the management.
We must also realize there is more than two choices handed to us all.
Republican or Demorcrat - Red or Blue - Black or White
There are millions of choices each one of us can confirm.
We have hope though it is not through hope, love and charity.
The world is watching and we will all be judged on our actions, nothing less.
The majority of people all want the same thing, true freedom.
Freedom Of Speech, Freedom to live, Freedom to enjoy their children, Freedom to live in peace.
We must ban war and all who stand for it, the word war means business now.
We must have the WAR ON WAR to enable peace to prevail.
The war on war will bring us peace without prejudice.
- JJ
naschkatze @ 89:
Ironchef didn't say the cops acted appropriately. He said the kid's right to free speech wasn't violated. And he's right.
Arizona @ 68:
I agree. This may not be your Hitler's fascism, but we are definitely here for the amusement of the corporate-state profiteers. And thanks to our corporate-state profiteers (M-I-C complex if you will), we are also the following:
1. A highly immoral nation.
2. A tremendously pliable and gullible nation.
3. A nation defined by war and violence.
We're not the only bad guys in the world, but we are leading the pack.
P.S. and lest I be remiss, organized religion provides an incredible helping hand in all of the above.
Fellow Democrats,
If Senator Clinton wins the Democratic nomination,
the Green Party candidate, whoever it is, will win my vote.
I've had enough of this war.
~ Dave,
9/11WTC Survivor
I have said it before, and I will keep saying it again.
PUBLIC SAFETY reason rules !!!!!
Why aren't I allowed to protest ? Public safety is paramount to everything else.
Why couldn't I voice a dissent in the discussion ? Public safety.
Why couldn't I wear that shirt (with an opposing message) ? Public safety !
Why couldn't I distribute this anti-war flyers ? Public safety !!
Why couldn't I sell this beautiful pins with anti-war slogans ? Public safety !!!
Public safety. Public safety !! Public safety !!!! Period.
It's in the handbooks of cops (public safety is paramount and must be enforced).
Rusty Shackleford @ 92:
There's a big difference between shutting off the kid's mic and tackling him / tasering him. And, since he was still asking questions when the cops started to hustle him off, his free speech was definitely infringed.
Closing your eyes and pretending nothing's wrong doesn't make it so.
"This is what I'm good at. I like meeting people, my fellow citizens, I like interfacing with them." --George W. Bush, Sept. 8, 2000
http://bagnewsnotes.typepad.com/bagnews/images/Bush-Motorcade-Policeman.jpg
stop talking about hillary and obama
they are not who you think they are
why cant we hear more about Kucinich and Gravel ?
why cant both dems and repubs have mass debate together?
why cant the audience ask unrehearsed questions?
why are there policeman standing at the mics?
Are you happy with your comformed lame zionist and CFR supported politicians (professional liars) whether from dems or repubs..get with it people...follow the fuckin money..and why not, youre PAYING FOR IT!
Shadowgm @ 96:
No it wasn't. He did not have the right to talk as long as he wanted to. He didn't have the right to ask ANY questions. The organizers of the event could just as well have had no Q&A session. Would everybody's rights have then been violated?
The cops were definitely in the wrong to taser the kid. They didn't violate his right to free speech though.
Christopher Hunter @ 19:
Hard to argue with the truth of that one.
*
Is this one of the rights that we are sending our sons and daughters to go and die for? This is what America has become? If we do not rise up as a nation with one voice we are all going to be living in a police state. The sad thing is most Amreicans are too dumbed down with thir zoloft and prozac to give a crap.
WAKE UP AMERICA BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE!
These are God given rights that are being taken away by our government. sad, very sad!
[...] the obvious restrictions on free speech have been loud and frequent. Yesterday, on Hardball, host Chris Matthews discusses 1st Amendment restrictions with Joe Conason and Media Benjamin and all three agree that our civil liberties are at risk and [...]
Trittydi @ 100:
And she will be our nxt president. Bush, a Clinton, a Bush and a Clinton. Anyone see a pattern here? Good cop bad cop all on the same team.
Rusty Shackleford @ 99:
They did punish him for attempting to say what he wanted in a public place.
The cops practiced free speech too, what they said with their actions is, "If you don't mind being tasered after, say anything you want."
Democrats are no better than the Republicans. If anyone thinks the democrats are going to save us, you are living in a fantasy land. The next president will most likely be Democrat. A Democrat who will be inheriting an imperial presidency all tied up in nice little package courtesy of the WarPigs Cheney and Bush. Will this next president relinquish all the unconstitutional and extraordinary powers that has been collected into the Executive Branch? I highly doubt it. Our country is so very screwed, and it's going to stay that way for a long time to come. Unless more people start reminding our elected officials that they work for US and that this is OUR country.
Fanon @ 85:
I care what he thinks and I happen to agree with him. The "victim" was actively resisting arrest & deserved what he got. Don't make a martyr out of this one, it won't fly...
My Democratic Senator, Maria Cantwell, had her goons threaten me with arrest when I staged a silent protest of her long-standing support for the Iraq War at an event she held with Barack Obama last year.
Dems are NO DIFFERENT from Republicans. Especially when they are unrepentant warmongers.
As if most Americans couldn't see this on their own, we all know Hillary is a tragically flawed individual. We've seen her up close and personal for 8 very long years. She has now become the person who confuses experience with pillow talk. Her middle name is Ambition. She's an overeducated over achiever, who feels it's her right to be president. Funny thing is, she can't convince me that she has any more or less right than anybody else running.
Does it really surprise anybody that she has goons to do her dirty work? We must not allow her to advance in her blind ambition. She's dangerous.
I don't know how far this situation will go, but it seems to combine three different areas of law, the right to assemble, the right to speech, and the classic "not yelling fire" in a theatre. If questions were allowed, and he asked his question and was awaiting an answer versus the security of the place. John Kerry had a right to not answer, but since he was willing the police inserted themselves unnecessarily. This wasn't even a case of someone yelling, "You suck," but once he eventually got to the question it was of a distinctive political nature, why didn't Kerry challenge the 2004 election results?
Once the kid started rambling they could have cut off his mike, and because the event was almost over and they were down to their last questions, Kerry could've left the stage, and the audience could've started leaving. But once the freak show started it was like Hitler wrote in Mein Kampf of people watching a beating but not getting involved, like it was some form of entertainment. It's indicative that a majority of the students took offense at what happened.
If people got tazered everytime they asked questions and hogged the floor, the bulk of our Congress would be laying on the floor twitching.
MeII @ 106:
He could serve five years in prison if convicted of the felony he is charged with.
We'll like see a lot more of this in the future and people agreeing that folks like him need to go to prison.
The media need to grill her and every other candidate on this issue.
Shadowgm @ 96:
MeII @ 106:
Ok, my poor "retard" comment aside, I'm still right. The cops did not infringe any speech. This kid was under rules, he violated them. The cops, as agents to enforce the rules, "removed him from further violation" of said rules. The officers have every right to subdue someone escaping them or being combative. It has NOTHING to do with free speech oppression..the kid was going into custody and RESISTED..that's all that matters here.
Try doing a little research and notice that the kid actually ran to the microphone, not being in the auditorium seated like other students who had questions. When a sitting Senator visits an auditorium like he did, there are alot of security risks..this is why the police followed him to the mic..he ran into the auditorium! yet the police waited patiently for him to ask his question following the alloted time any student has to ask questions. The kid obviously abused this rule, the female officer politely and patiently tapped him on the back and told him the time was up..the asshole kid "shooed" the officer away. Patiently after another 30 seconds or so, the cop finally approached the kid to escort him away from the mic. The kid did not continue to have his right to free speech any longer. When the kid became combative, inciting a riot as charged (by yelling for help, attempting to stay in the room when he almost broke free from the cops near the exit before he got thrown down), they put him to the floor and attempted to cuff him. Resisting further and not following commands that he was given to stop resisting, they police tazed him rightfully and legally. Not that tazing him helped (he was still an asshole afterwards drumming up attention..which was his intention to begin with), they finally got him to stand up. And yes, he is required to stand up when commanded to do so..any protester or unlawful citizen is..and can legally be tazed if they do not comply.
Again, as in the other thread TRY LEARNING LAWS before you pretend to know them and spin this into a freedom of speech issue. Just because you don't like tazing, doesn't mean we live in a police state and that cops are evil minions of george bush! lol I don't like tazing either, but it's almost non-lethal and doesn't even hurt as much as it looks bad..having been tazed myself for a training.
Rusty Shackleford @ 99:
Sorry, when you have an open microphone and a Q&A session, you are making an implied offer to the community to engage in dialogue, and therefore, free speech becomes an issue.
While the converse, a speech with no Q&A, offers no opportunity for dialogue, neither does it strip any member of the audience of their First Amendment rights, as there is no fair expectation that anyone other than the speaker would have an opportunity to address the crowd.
The right to free speech must be interpreted broadly, not sold cheaply as you would have it. Meyer neither posed an immediate threat to the audience nor to the officers restraining him. There was no inherent danger from his questions other than the possible discomfiture of Senator Kerry, who is free to answer or not answer as he sees fit.
How we treat people like Andrew Meyer is indicative of the health of our democracy. Right now, democracy is being hustled to the floor and shot with a taser for no good reason.
I want to address the issue of overuse of the word "fascism." We do not live in a fascist country, even if we are governed by people with fascist character traits, and lust for fascism. There is a difference! Please see the movie The Lives of Others for a glimpse into the reality of fascism. It scared the bejeezus out of me, and it is based on truth and reality.
Like a couple other posters who have commented on this thread, I, too, want to see some corroborating evidence rather than accept Ms. Benjamin's word for what happened at the H. Clinton event. Also, Matthews will take any position at all which allows him to demonstrate his antagonism towards H. Clinton, so he gets no accolade from me for "defending free speech." I was a supporter of Code Pink until they tarnished the solemn hearing of Valerie Plame with the antics of one of their members, (like someone clowning around during a wedding ceremony.) Now I take what they say with a very big grain of salt.
I'm sure Code Pink has it on their agenda to do everything they can, within the law, to make sure Ms. Clinton is not the nominee. Therefore, I reserve judgment until I hear both sides, and hopefully witnesses are available to discuss their perception of this expulsion by "goons."
The political atmosphere is so poisoned already, I dread how it will be by November of next year. :(
ironchef @ 112:
Breaking the rules of the forum, gets you charged with a felony. By disturbing the peace he could get up to five years in prison.
Think about that when you're in public.
Shadowgm @ 113:
Wrong. His first ammendment rights let him say the words he said, not the time frame he was given to say them in. He went beyond the time limit to exercise his free speech. Get it right. not to mention that idiot was just rambling off question after question after question..Kerry even said "let me answer one question at a time."
His "free speech" was not infringed. Get over it.
Weaseldog @ 115:
Wrong. Breaking the rules of the forum get you escorted away from forum privileges. Resisting police officers doing their job gets you the charges he qualified for and the felony he may suffer from.
ironchef @ 116:
Exactly. They let him talk, then tasered him. Now he may spend five years in prison.
But he did get to say his piece.
I'm sure that like him, any one of us will be allowed to speak before we are tasered and arrested, then put on trial for endangering the public.
ironchef @ 117:
No, they were arresting him for breaking the rules of the forum.
He did resist arrest, but they were arresting on felony charges.
You can't be arrested for resisting arrest, before you're told you are under arrest.
The charge against him is a felony count of disturbing the peace.
Weaseldog @ 118:
lol, what level of basic reading comprehension do you lack? There are TWO different things that happened.
ONE> He used his time. He did not leave the mic when asked to nicely..probably repeatedly. He HAD to be removed.
TWO> During his removal, he broke seperate laws not having ANYTHING to do with forum rules, free speech, or the types of questions or quantity of questions he was asking the Senator. The laws he broke in resisting the police, inciting a riot, whatever stemmed from HIS BEHAVIOR AFTER the forum rules were violated and after he was rightfully removed from the mic.
He is not facing 5 years of prison for asking a question ya goob. Take a breath and let reality sink in.
ironchef @ 117:
Ooops sorry, I understand you now.
You're saying he deserves five years in prison, because what he did is as bad involuntary manslaughter, or armed robbery, because he endangered the lives of the public while disturbing the peace.
Rusty Shackleford @ 99:
So,
Talking over the pre-determined time limit at a public rally, during an open mic Q&A with a Senator IS grounds for a good beat down and tazering?
GREEN PARTY ANYONE?????
Clinton's welfare reform bill, which was signed on Aug. 22, 1996, obliterated the nation's social safety net. It threw 6 million people, many of them single parents, off of the welfare rolls within three years. It dumped them onto the streets without child care, rent subsidies and continued Medicaid coverage. Families were plunged into crisis, struggling to survive on multiple jobs that paid $6 or $7 an hour, or less than $15,000 a year.
But these were the lucky ones. In some states, half of those dropped from the welfare rolls could not find work. Clinton slashed Medicare by $115 billion over a five-year period and cut $25 billion in Medicaid funding. The booming and overcrowded prison system handled the influx of the poor, as well as our abandoned mentally ill.
The growing desperation provided a pool of broken people willing to work for low wages and without unions or benefits. And while Clinton was busy selling out the poor, he lowered the capital gains tax from 28 percent to 20 percent, a reduction that permitted the wealthiest 1 percent of the population to derive 80 percent of the tax savings. Clinton, like George W. Bush, also provided lavish government funding for his corporate backers, including in 1998 a $200-billion highway and transportation package for the big construction companies and a $17-billion increase in the military budget.
This was the largest increase in military spending since the end of the Cold War. Corporations, flush with government aid, saw their taxes dwindle. Amway, for example, had its taxes cut during the Clinton years by an estimated $280 million. The Clinton and Bush administrations, through tax breaks and corporate bailouts, have squandered billions of our tax dollars on corporate welfare.
I'm with what Bholland Says:
We need Universal Health Care paid with TAX DOLLARS, not on the backs of business. NO INSURANCE COMPANY PROFITS IN HEALTH CARE….PUT THEM BACK IN THE LIFE INSURANCE BUSINESS.
GREEN PARTY ANYONE?????
Free speech, what is that? With all these losers on this site giving their approval of goon tactics, we don't have a chance. They rally behind tax cuts for the rich, torture of anyone the govt wants, wiretapping and wearing shirts at political rallies. This country has worked hard for the last 20 years creating idiots and they have been successful. Unfortunately, the idiots don't' know the brown shirts will get them too. Hopeless.
Weaseldog @ 121:
lol, dumbass. please stop typing your spin. and please don't procreate.
ironchef @ 120:
You're not keeping up with the story.
He's out on bail on a felony charge. He has been arrested on a felony violation that will haunt him for the rest of his life. There are many occupations now closed to him forever, even if the charges are dropped.
You should keep up with the story if you're going to argue it.
ironchef @ 125:
You're behind on the story. There is more to it, than what you seem to know.
Swashbuckler @ 22:
its true... and always has been. wake up.
.
Where was the moderator? Were the police the moderator running the show?
What cause did the police have to physically remove this young man?
What exactly was the threat he posed?
Where was the riot?
From my opinion, the actions of the police caused the "major" disturbance.
Or was it the act of asking THREE QUESTIONS that happened to disturd the sensabilities of some people present?
Is it Heil Bush...
or
Long live George?
.
I'm away from my legal texts, but there was a case I believe during the Korean war, where someone was publically denouncing Truman and the war, and somebody told a cop to shut the speaker up or he was going to punch him. So the cops arrested the speaker.
The Supreme Court said in that case it wasn't the cops job to "protect the public" but to protect the speaker.
So often now at political rallies and such, you'll see a phalanx of cops supposedly there to protect the protesters.
Shadowgm @ 113:
An "implied offer"? That's contract language. We're talking constitutional rights. If you want to talk like a lawyer, at least get your terms right.
There is a potential free speech issue. But in order to win this one you'd have to convince people that the school's time restrictions on questioners was unreasonable, or that the restrictions weren't content-neutral. There's no evidence of either being the case.
This kid had an opportunity. He blew it by breaking the rules.
Listen junior, don't go mistaking me for some whole other body. I'm a proud member of the ACLU and a HUGE advocate of free speech. That's exactly why I think it's important to separate the wheat from the chaff. You start yelling "free speech!" every time some loudmouth doesn't get to act like an idiot, and pretty soon people stop paying attention to REAL violations.
The cops used excessive force and that's a problem. It's the ONLY problem.
ironchef @ 117:
Heavy handedness is just that. Public forums are passionate. I am creeped out to the core at these justifications for Jackbooting free expression by both dems & repukes.
Now I am totally freaked out by this gov't altogether.
By the way, in case you haven't heard yet, this is really enjoyable:
The senate has reached Cloture on whether or not Habeaus Corpus applies to u.s. citizens?????!!!!!!
Anybody got a shovel to start tunneling outa here?
ironchef @ 112:
Gee, that's so reassuring. It's almost non-lethal and really doesn't hurt that bad. (A reporter at our station got shot by a taser as part of a story on police training, and it knocked his ass out of a chair.)
Unless you are an officer of the court or an actual police officer in the jurisdiction where Andrew Meyer got tasered, what you know of the law is not a universal truth. (To wit, O.J. Simpson is facing a charge of kidnapping because issuing instructions to a person while they are at gunpoint - whether or not you are the person holding the gun - qualifies as kidnapping in Las Vegas.)
Also, it is my understanding that Kerry gave the go-ahead for Meyer to ask one last question, even though the queue had been cut off. To me, that is an explicit offer, no different from answering Mike Wallace when he stops by to ask a question. If you engage the person and say anything other than 'get off my property,' or expressly deny them permission to record you, the conversation is implied, and you can't take them to court.
So, let's be clear. If Senator Kerry allowed Meyer to come to the mike, and Meyer is tackled simply because he asked more than a single question, his free speech is being infringed.
Rusty Shackleford @ 131:
You said that Andrew deserved everything that happened to him.
That implies that you don't believe that excessive force was used. That he deserved to be tasered. That this is suitable punishment to for breaking the rules.
Had he died, I have to assume that your position would be no different, as the outcome of his deserved punishment hasn't been questioned.
Max-1 @ 122:
NO. It is not. And I never said it was.
Weaseldog @ 134:
The fuck I did. Pay attention.
Yes John Kerry asked the cops to let him continue and to let him stay.
But the cops had decided that his free speech time was up. They had let him speak, after they heard him, they decided it was time to get him out of there. So four cops held him down with his arms restrained, while a fifth held a gun on him and a sixth calmly walked up and tased him.
He was allowed to speak, but afterwards, he had to take his licks.
Rusty Shackleford @ 135:
I'm just keeping it honest.
Because that IS what happened.
Max-1 @ 138:
I'm aware.
In 1992, I and my wife took our son, then 9, to his first political rally - Bill and Hillary were arriving by jet at a secured site at
Lambert Airport in St. Louis. Bill was so hoarse from so many capaign stops that Hillary had to speak for him after he croaked out a few words of thanks for showing up.
Shortly after Hillary began speaking, my wife and I were rudely shoved aside by a flying pyramid of Washington University's Young Republican organization (the university disavowed their tactics). My wife was elbowed sharpley to one side as was I - our son was pushed to the other side of the jerks as they, wearing chicken masks, chanted slogans about Bill as a draft-dodger. My wife and I tried to get through to our son on the other side of the group but they were holding fast. My wife had ripped off the mask of one of the them and was grappling with him, I had the one in front of me by the belt and, for the first time in a very long time, was about to punch somebody out when a *very* tall, football player sized Secret Service man in a dark suit unintentionally stepped on my foot on his way to grab the offenders.
They were hauled off by the police and were *never* charged. The next night at the televised debate at the University between Bush Sr. and Clinton, I saw one of the creeps, the president of the young repubs, sitting next to Barbara Bush.
This was an invitation-only rally, but it wasn't that hard to get tickets. The Clintons were forcefully condemning the crashers while the melee was going on, though the agents got things under control in less than a minute. My son was roughed up a little but okay. If security hadn't come when it did, those kids would have had the crap kicked out of them.
NOT because they crashed the event, that stuff went on all the time and Dems did it to Repubs (remember the guy inthe chickensuit who used to stalk Bush, Sr.?) It was the violence that they used to break into the crowd that was the problem. These weren't crazed live-in-thier-mom's-basement right wingers, these were kids who probably all have jobs with the GoP now.
I know of two 70- year old sisters who were knocked to the ground by the hooligans. *None of us* got apologies from the GOP, the campus Republicans or the Bush campaign. I wrote an op-ed piece for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch which wasn't printed but was instead quoted at length by a local columnist who called for an inquiry. His column was picked up nationally.
And there it all died.
There is a difference between the US President giving national speeches and not allowing anyone in but his loyal party members and a political rally which is by invitation only and is intended to drum up support for the candidate.
I can't justify, if true, the experience of Code Pink at the Hillary rally but there are a lot of crazy people out there and I'm absolutely sure that they'll do worse things then rudeley knock people aside.
And I'm not talking about terrorists - I'm talking about Republican activists. In general, Democrats and liberals yell and hold up disrespectful or worse signs. The Repubs are a lot more aggressive.
Milo
Freakaloin @ 3:
yes, there is a difference. bush is a guy and hillary is a girl. hehehe
Cynic in Chgo @ 123:
Get
Republicans
Elected
Every
November
straight shooter is now yellow dog leaving the old name to Straight Shooter.
FWIW - I agree with my alter ego in his post on this subject. I trust ideologues of the left about as much as I trust ideologues of the right.
I voted Green once - it was a waste of time. In a parliamentary system, third parties work. In our system, once in a blue moon a third party will become ascendent and suddenly become half of the two party system. There is no more chance that will happen to the Greens than that it will happen to the Libertarians.
I will vote for whichever candidate wins the Democratic nomination, be that Hillary, Bill Richardson, Dennis Kucinich or a yellow dog.
Weaseldog @ 137:
\
Late in coming to this C&L thead, which I thought had to do w/a Hardball program, but
I see that it just saying again, repeating and being redundant of what was on another
C&L thead yesterday. Those of you who soooo strongly defend this guy seeking notarity/
attention, go to the 4 to 5 different videos and use your eyes and ears and you may be
able to much better understand the results of the actions as caused by Andrew.
It is irresponsible to for anyone to say, as Mr. Matthews says, that this kid was tasered because of his speach. That is flat out wrong. He was tasered because he did not comply with police officers. Should it have ever gotten to that point? Absolutely not, but lets be fair with our statements.
The assault is widespread. John Kerry is a poor role model. Click here to see another example of the assault on free speech in America.in sight.
I wish you all peace and a return of habeas corpus.
Pre-made signs is about the most retarded thing I've ever seen.
Hey guys... I didn't bring a comment to post. Can I hold one of yours?
Rusty Shackleford @ 131:
See the comments about Mike Wallace and the techniques of the ambush interview. Wallace and other 60 Minutes correspondents were sued more than once. "Implied offer" is applicable. You can't offer a kid the microphone and then hustle him off/taser him because you don't like HOW he asked his questions.
Well, they are both (all) americans, do you realy expect them to be diferent, come on!
...and Hillary is just a career bitch - what do you expect of her anyway!!!
doggiebobo, fuck off. change the channel, go to a site you wont be upset by.
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