Well, at least they aren't torturing for sport!

Impeachable, prosecutable, shameful.

So, did the CNN reporter/anchor/etc. actually follow-up the point with a question about how you can defend torture by saying we stop once the torture has worked? Because, albeit less harmful physically, the failure our the US media to do so is just as shameful as is the use of torture.

That's kinda like saying, "We stop killing them when they're dead."

And our Founding Fathers weep as they see what has happened to us...

Did we fight so that we wouldn't have to live under a tyranical king only to be stuck with living under a tyranical elected king? If so, we haven't accomplished much, have we?

They torture. The victim says anything to make the torture stop. When we hear what we want to hear--"information" that backs the policy--we stop.

How do we verify the "information"? We torture another victim.

I miss the USSR. When they were around, behaving like this, our leaders refused to torture at the very least to prove we were better than the USSR. Now, with no one else to be the "bad guys", Our Dear Leaders feel free to use all the Soviet's tricks.

I miss my country.

I kinda like the idea of breaking the law only until I get what I want, then I'll stop.

EMPY @ 9:

So if you really don't know what they are asking you, be prepared for the works.

That is the scary part. The less you know, the more you get tortured.

Happy Inquisition, everyone.

An Average Joe @ 3:

How many days till 1/20/09?

Way to many for me!!!

No,...what's really insane is that the american people actually condone this type of behavior! I can prove it quite easily---- absolutely no one is going to do a fucking thing about this therefore it will continue! Seriously,....check ourselves. Besides all of us finger-fucking our keyboards to death in righteous indignation what will actually be done? The sad inescapable truth is that if the american people really felt horrified and disgusted by the Bush regime atrocities something would have really already been done about this! Seriously. Nothing has been done and nothing will be done! Bush and Cheney will get away with it all! Sad fact but true. Look at Gonzo! He's out of the Whore House scott-free with complete and utter impunity. He'll never see the inside of a jail cell despite his obvious and heinous violations of the Constitution. All of these miserable sub-human pieces of shit in the Bush administration are never going to see a day in jail! They will actually be paid, in fact, on the lecture circuit---quite handsomely---by the very sheeple who keep them in power. Those of us who know are simply too few. And all the others simply don't care. So, other then venting, all our screaming and indignation will amount to jack shit! It's tiring actually.......

Blue Buddha @ 11:

the painful physical and psychological tactics, which are unlawful, are suspended when the detainees “becomes cooperative.” In other words, “We stop torturing when we get what we want out of the suspect.”

So Townsend basically defined what torture is with fancy words, and used it as a defense to use torture... and I bet every pundit and American will buy it. When all else fails, baffle 'em with bullshit.

In other words, if the president does it, it's not torture.

That smug bitch Perino, interpreting the Geneva convention. If we ever are fortunate enough to impeach these tyrants, no amnesty for you Dana.

She said that “we start with the least harsh measures first” and stop the progression “if someone becomes cooperative.”
Oh, right, right, it's only torture if they don't cooperate.
One can only hope that Dante was right about the levels of hell.

Another must see video.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/164.html

miss skeptic @ 29:

I just read a book about the Inquisition, and it was no different from what is being done today. Prisoners were not told what they were being charged with - they had to play some kind of sick guessing game as to who accused them and what was said or done. Then they threw them in prison for a few days so they could think about what crime was committed. If they still didn't guess right, they took them to the torture rooms. The poor prisoners would admit to anything to stop the torture. We haven't progressed much in 600 years.

The Pit and the Pendulum. Just don't get in the pit cause Cheney is swinging the pendulum.

If thr Reich wing was to admit to any of their misdeeds, they could be charged with war crimes or worse. They will deny, deny, deny because they could be executed or end up life in prison. Someone is going to slip up.

Sorta interested in knowing what the least harsh measures are.

pretty please tell us what we want to hear?

you're a very bad boy?

go sit in the corner?

Or sleep deprivation, inadequate food, and hypothermia?

Dhalgren, I don't think history will have to look too far back. No telescope needed on this one.

What kind of a sick fu*king mind can look at torturing human beings and say it's okay? Sounds like the mind of a criminal to me.

That was a chilling interview. Phrases such as "put them into the program" coming out of this automaton's maw like it was a part of doing normal everyday business was beyond sickening.

There's going to be an accounting... a reckoning... but sadly, it's the innocent public who sat and looked the other way (or worse, cheerleaded with their ignorance) idly while this all happened (it's been years - there's no excuse anymore so can the American public-at-large even be referred to as innocents anymore... when the next attack comes?) who will pay - not the policy makers - they never do.

Ron @ 28:

Another must see video.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/164.html

That is a good video but it does not convince me to vote for Ron Paul. He would remove funding from everything including public education if he had his way.

Dhalgren @ 31:

History will look back and ask why we didn't protest or impeach.

We have protested. We voted for people who we expected would impeach. They have not impeached and our protests have been ignored by the Corporate Media.

Besides, history requires human beings to write it. Will there be any after we start the nuclear war?

Rendition - illegal
Torture - illegal
Aggressive war - illegal
Guantanamo - illegal
Suspending Habeas Corpus - illegal
Using mercenary forces - illegal

And everyone knows that this has been going on. But no one does anything about it. This isn't a new revelation, this is just additional confirmation of something everyone that has been paying attention already knew. But, it will disappear just like all the rest because people in this country have a two second attention span. And there is no question that, unless they have been completely asleep, the people in Congress know all of this. They must not have that much of a problem with it. A large portion of country doesn't have that much of a problem with it. What does that say about us as a nation?

xoites defends Constitution @ 40:

Ron @ 28:

Another must see video.

http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/164.html

That is a good video but it does not convince me to vote for Ron Paul. He would remove funding from everything including public education if he had his way.

I wouldn't vote for him either. I just wanted to point out what they have planned for the future.

Zenrage @ 47:

navyswan @ 44:

What does that say about us as a nation?

It says were too dependent on the current quality of life to surrender it to the hardship and effort associated with revolution.

No, I think it means we are morally bankrupt pussies.

navyswan @ 48:

Zenrage @ 47:

navyswan @ 44:

What does that say about us as a nation?

It says were too dependent on the current quality of life to surrender it to the hardship and effort associated with revolution.

No, I think it means we are morally bankrupt pussies.

Nope. I know you are not and i know i am not. There must be another explanation.

The Corporate Media
A Compliant Congress
A Right Wing Judiciary
A Megolomaniacal President
A nation divided by race, culture, class, economics, religion and distracted by Brittney Spears And OJ Simpson.

Zenrage @ 47:

navyswan @ 44:

What does that say about us as a nation?

It says were too dependent on the current quality of life to surrender it to the hardship and effort associated with revolution.

...or even organized protest. The American Idol-class is too fat and happy at the moment.

Thanks to the Repukes, though, we're headed in the right direction.

"In other words, “We stop torturing when we get what we want out of the suspect.”

That statement in itself should prove that torture is ineffective. I'd bet that every legitimate terrorist group out there knows as well.  If you give an agency something they want they will stop the torture as soon as they get it. So, you just provide a convincing lie when you have had enough which then will lead that agency on a wild goose chase. Other suspects could do the same which will lead that agency to even more wild goose chases. Now of course, when that agency finds out that they are lies the repercussions will be severe but that to is well known and expected.  If this happens enough times, the agencies case(s) will be so full of pieced together inaccuracies that they will be onto something totally wrong.  Heck they taught the same methods to us in the service.  All factual knowledge that you are allowed to give are name, rank, and serial number.  Beyond that, you give the enemy wrong information or lies.  John McCain, above anyone else should know that this is the case.
 

I bet if they canceled American Idol we would hear more of an uproar than this torture story is getting.

torture me once shame on you...torture me twice,shame on me.

xoites defends Constitution @ 59:

Democrats Demand Interrogation Memos

WH has already refused.

MN USA @ 43:

There is no justification for torture.

Everyone who agrees should inundate their representatives with phone calls and emails regardless of their party or political persuasion. If you are outraged, they need to know.

For months--hmmm, by now it's years--I've been inundating my representatives (and everyone else's, the "leadership", and anyone on the other side who seems even slightly sensible, plus the Democratic party's so-called organization) with increasingly-strident emails, letters, phone calls, petitions, and even a few brief in-person conversations. I've gotten responses from a number of them, but no results. My frustration level is incredible, but I'm stymied. Guess it's time to find the pitchfork and head for the streets, which we'd better do before Blackwater starts patrolling them.

Consider herr dubyah has been wrong or has lied on every issue over the last 7 years, it's safe to say his people are indeed involved in torturing.

patthemonkey @ 61:

This subject will be under the radar as soon as we start the next news cycle after the three day weekend. Maybe Brittney Spears will drive off a cliff or something and we can all forget about living in a country that allows slim to represent us to the world.

Will Paris Hilton be in the T-Bird with her?

The fact that any random repug minion can stand up at any time and spew an endless stream of misinformation, half truths and bold faced lies as easily as if they were reading a grocery list is infuriating beyond expression. Not to mention illegal in most cases. But it's Ok as long as you're a repug.
Not one of those political cardboard cutouts has a clue in regards to what they're actually talking about but they're all 100% certain it's the right, good, honest truth because it came from the shrub co. crime family and that's good enough for them.
Again. Another perfect parallel to Germany in the 30's and 40's.

You can't fly without pre-clearance, a dna sample and assurances from three reliable sources that you're not a fucking shoe bomber; it's ok for cops to tazer, beat and jail you indefinitely if you happen to be wearing a t-shirt they don't like but hey! American idol is on so who cares right?

Dean @ 69:

Democrats Demand Interrogation Memos

Ron Says:
WH has already refused.

Well by god, it's time for another sternly worded letter from Harry Reid and the Dems.

Just saying that they'll write a letter is enough.

so... Bush says the US doesn't torture...

so what did we need secret CIA black sites for?

2 + 2 = 5!

Torture - on both domestic and foreign soils = the bush 43 legacy!

xoites defends Constitution @ 59:

Democrats Demand Interrogation Memos

Demand? BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Carmikl @ 71:

What do you suppose "political willingness question" means? Willingness to break the law?

Triumph of the Will, no doubt.

But seriously, the same vague concept that Cheney invoked when they talked about the having the 'guts' for this fight, or having the 'will' to win.

It's the same question terrorists ask before they don a vest and go stand at the bus stop. Do they have the political will?

We have become the enemy.

TOWNSEND: Well, we know from the director of Central Intelligence that fewer than a hun -- there have been fewer than a hundred CIA detainees in any type of program. And less than a third of those have ever had -- used techniques against them.

I will say to you, though, that less than a third produced 8,500 intelligence reports on threat information. We don't even consider putting somebody into this program, the director of CIA doesn't, unless we think one of two things is a factor -- either they have information -- timely information about location of Al Qaeda leadership or they have information about an imminent or a real threat to the United States and our interests.

So where is the evidence of this? Were there arrests? Other than a few ridiculous wannabes, I don't remember any real bad guys doing the perp walk. I don't remember any stories about weapons caches or bomb factories. The Bush administration does not keep these things a secret. They hold news conferences about even the silliest bogus threats.

The sad thing is, most of the Dems now running will most likely continue this horrid, tragic policy.

Yeah repugs think a lot of suffering, disspare, hopelessness is a laugh riot. Remember when chimpy went to a vet hospital and compared his little boo-boo on his empty head to a vet who was maimed during his war?

These people are Christians? Yeah right.

TOWNSEND: Wolf, we adhere to the -- to the law. And the president has made clear his expectation that we will do that. No one has ever suggested that, say, Miranda or the Army field manual went to the limits that were legally permissible. The constitution does that, which is why we seek legal opinions from the office of legal counsel.

But we don't talk about the specific techniques...

BLITZER: Would it be...

TOWNSEND: ...because we know they train against those techniques that we know we use.

There is no such thing as secret torture techniques. First of all, it's not likely that the CIA has developed anything that hasn't been used by someone somewhere before. There's nothing new about waterboarding, it's just an updated version of witchdunking. Many of the techniques used now were probably used 2000 years ago.

Secondly, there are no secrets in a prison. If an inmate wasn't the actual victim of torture, he knows the details of what was done to another inmate. The only way to keep it a secret is to never ever let anyone go. Don't let them have visitors, especially attorneys. Don't let them write letters.

Legal representation for Guantanamo detainees must be a real nightmare for the Bush administration. It's more about keeping the attorneys quiet than the right to legal representation.

The worst part about this is it costs alot (in terms of our reputation throughout the world and wasted time and resources following BS torture induced leads) and has no benefits. It just doesn't work. Torture causes people to make stuff up - to say whatever the interragator wants to hear.

I think the real problem here is the insular attitude of the people in charge. Psychology has known for a long time that torture deson't work.It's not outrageous to assume that this administration simply didn't consult with any experts that might tell them something that they don't want to hear: that there's a mountain of evidence that torture doesn't work, and very little indicating that it does. They already know, just like everything else. No matter what science it is, there's an administration official who ignorantly pushes it aside.

What do they do to make it up to the ones where they are mistaken?

If someone has a heart attack, chokes to death, or dies of shock, is that ok, because the torture is ok?

So they torture first then become their friends. I see how this would make sense to repugs. Torturing doesn't make sense to me, but torturing humans before its known if they have viable intel is just plain sadism. From beginning to the end it's sadism. Who are these people who do this shit? Let alone over and over again.

BLITZER: That's what John McCain, who himself was tortured when he was a POW in Vietnam, he says that, if the United States uses these harsh interrogation techniques, then others will be encouraged to follow suit.

TOWNSEND: John McCain was tortured. We do not torture. And the fact is no matter how we treat detainees, Al Qaeda, when they capture our soldiers in uniform, will still torture and behead them. How we treat detainees is not going affect that.

This is just a ridiculous answer by Frances Townsend and Wolf shouldn't have let her get away with it. We are not worried about how al-Qaeda will treat American captives. We're worried about how countries like Syria, Iran or other potential enemies to be named later, might use our definition of torture to justify their treatment of Americans.

BLITZER: That's what John McCain, who himself was tortured when he was a POW in Vietnam, he says that, if the United States uses these harsh interrogation techniques, then others will be encouraged to follow suit.

TOWNSEND: John McCain was tortured. We do not torture. And the fact is no matter how we treat detainees, Al Qaeda, when they capture our soldiers in uniform, will still torture and behead them. How we treat detainees is not going affect that.

Frances, no one believes you. Richard Speck has more credibility than you do.

"al-Qaeda members are trained to resist harsh interrogations"

Does that hold true for innocent people accidentally identified as al-Qaeda members?

His comments were disturbing and his justifications pathetic.

So, what the White House is saying is that much like the missle gap we had during the Cold war, we now have a torture gap in the "War on Terror" (copyright 2001)! So, are we training our soldiers to resist torture in case they get in the hands of the enemy? If so, how is that progressing? I'd like to see a progress report on our countertorture resistance methods. I bet our boys are heads and shoulders (literally) above the resistance curve! viva la resistance!

Only the Pentagon can be this bat shit crazy.

The article misses, I think, an important point. How would anyone know who is Al Queda or not?? If only Al Queda is trained; what about the folks that are detained that aren't? How many were detained prior to "supposedly" Al Queda arriving?

Anyone can be presumed to be Al Queda by commiting an act; but were they officially trained by actual Al Queda?

Carmikl @ 67:

White House homeland security adviser Frances Fragos Townsend also dismissed objections to the CIA program yesterday, saying during an appearance on CNN that al-Qaeda members are trained to resist harsh interrogations. She said that “we start with the least harsh measures first” and stop the progression “if someone becomes cooperative.”

Of course, there is always the possibility that the person who is being tortured knows absolutely nothing. Imagine the horror of being tortured, and the only way to stop the torture is to disclose information that you know nothing about. Not only that, but the torture is going to get progressively worse until you start talking.

The only way out is to lie, and the lie confirms your guilt. Later when you try to deny your guilt, you'll get the old, "were you lying then or are you lying now". So now that they've established that you're a liar, it's very difficult to get anyone to believe you. And now that you know what their torture techniques are, they'll never let you go anyway, because those techniques are a "Secret".

That is why evidence gained through torture is not admissible in legal courts. That is why the WH had to get rid of Habeas Corpus, that is why they had to illegally rendition people to countries that torture, and that is why they created the criminal military tribunals that allow us to hold people indefinitely and allow testimony from people who were tortured. It is all part of the big plan. All of these things go together.

Karen @ 105:

As much as I abhor the whole idea of torture I have been told by my marine friends of their being trained for torture while at boot camp, including waterboarding, but we are talking here of marines from the 60's, not present day. To be fair, al Queda may not be so nice.

and...

Karen @ 105:

As much as I abhor the whole idea of torture I have been told by my marine friends of their being trained for torture while at boot camp, including waterboarding, but we are talking here of marines from the 60's, not present day. To be fair, al Queda may not be so nice.

And the Nazis tried for War Crimes were nice? Milosovich was nice? ''To be fair'' - yes. That means a person's level/lack of ''niceness'' has nothing to do with how we treat them.

I miss having a real media that reports the news, not just 2 sets of talking points: RNC & ReichWing. Without KO, there's not a single backbone out there. Just a bunch of cowering fools who don't remember how to do substantive follow-up. They act grateful, almost apologetic, when a Bushbot ''lets'' them try to ask another politely-couched lame question again.

Fortunately, it sounds like she confirmed some type of paper trail accompanying these torture episodes. Hopefully, some enterprising soul will decide at some point to pursue these documents, just to see what has actually been occurring.

The Viet Cong had their reasonings for torture; the Nazis had their reasonings for death camps and medical experiments; the Khmer Rouge had their reasons for killing children; everyone things that they're not only right, but exceptional, as well. The US is no different this time.

As a former USAF servicemember, I still have in my possession a copy of the Geneva Conventions on the Treatment of Prisoners of War. Several sections are devoted to torture and interrogation, including the rights of belligerents and non-belligerents. In essence, those whom are not wearing the uniform of a hostile army shall be treated no less than those who do wear a uniform. Determinations as to their actual status shall only be ascertained by a tribunal.

Torture is, (in my words) the intentional infliction of pain and suffering, including cruel and unusual punishment, in the hope of extracting valuable information. The only distinction from sadistic abuse and torture is theintelligible evidence extracted.

Abuse of prisoners is strictly and clearly prohibited, not restricted with exceptions. Interrogations of prisoners may be conducted, but torture can never be used.

If there is any clear and moral guiding set of words to understand why America is against torture, it is contained in our Bill of Rights under the 8th Amendment
"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted. "

That is our guiding principle regarding treatment of fellow human beings.

Frago-Townsend: "I mean, we clip their fingernails first... Then if we don't get cooperation, we pull them."

Couple of hundred years ago these folks would've been going from village to village burning "witches," completely oblivious to the fact that when a person's flesh is pulled from their bones with red-hot pinchers, they'll confess to just about anything.

Good God, I hate republicans!

Why does Townsend get so defensive when asked questions?

I have noticed a pattern of speech that Republicans use when talking. The preface a statement by saying
"Look..." or "The fact is...". There are others I've noticed but can't remember. Listen, and you will hear Perino or Rove using this pattern constantly. It's sort of a patronizing way of denigrating the questioner I think. "Look" = "If you would only see" = "You poor deluded fool"

Someone do a study on that. Thanks :)

Whenever I watch Townsend, I can't help but think that she/he is hiding a penis somewhere. Her/his neck is of a bodybuilder.

DR-TV @ 118:

Couple of hundred years ago these folks would've been going from village to village burning "witches," completely oblivious to the fact that when a person's flesh is pulled from their bones with red-hot pinchers, they'll confess to just about anything.

Good God, I hate republicans!

I wrote about this aspect of our administration's love of torture over a year ago.

So I'm not the only one that sees it this way?

SpankyTheMonkey @ 20:

No,...what's really insane is that the american people actually condone this type of behavior! I can prove it quite easily---- absolutely no one is going to do a fucking thing about this therefore it will continue! Seriously,....check ourselves. Besides all of us finger-fucking our keyboards to death in righteous indignation what will actually be done? The sad inescapable truth is that if the american people really felt horrified and disgusted by the Bush regime atrocities something would have really already been done about this! Seriously. Nothing has been done and nothing will be done! Bush and Cheney will get away with it all! Sad fact but true. Look at Gonzo! He's out of the Whore House scott-free with complete and utter impunity. He'll never see the inside of a jail cell despite his obvious and heinous violations of the Constitution. All of these miserable sub-human pieces of shit in the Bush administration are never going to see a day in jail! They will actually be paid, in fact, on the lecture circuit---quite handsomely---by the very sheeple who keep them in power. Those of us who know are simply too few. And all the others simply don't care. So, other then venting, all our screaming and indignation will amount to jack shit! It's tiring actually.......

I so agree with your analysis. The majority of Americans are absolutely clueless to what is happening since they do not follow politics, and as such, believe everything in life is great. After all, the Administration is not torturing them directly so what do they care if foreigners are being tortured. Ask the average American about Britney Spears and they can recite all of Spear's life happenings but ask who is the AG that just left office and they are clueless.
The complete ignorance by many Americans of the current happenings within the corridors of the White House serves to embolden the current Administration to ignore U.S. laws.

She evades all questions. She has a monologue.

"are these techniques still being used?"

"I'm not going to talk about the operational...."

You just did, and the answer is yes.

To these idiots even consider the fact that people under torture will say whatever the hell you want them to say just to make you stop torturing them?

Shame is probably the only way I can describe my feelings when I hear/read information such as this.

The sooner Bush is taken to task for his crimes the sooner the world will be a peaceful place to live.

I don't feel shame, and I won't feel shame if some real lovers of freedom and democracy ask Belgium or Geneva Convention signatories and World Court countries to host the war crimes trials that will INCLUDE people like Townsend that aid and abet this criminal activity.

Problem is, Just wait, by December of 2008, either Bush will have declaired marshal law or these people including the MSM attack poodles like Townsend will be lined up in the airports ready to head for Dubai or whereever so they can live the rest of their precious little PR driven lives on the money they've raided out of the US Treasury and converted to something other than US$... heck even Canadian $ are doing better than US dollars at this point.

Meanwhile, don't forget that the Blackwater thugs will be flying in on the planes to quell the unionization effort that the average US citizen will suddenly discover is needed in order to make sure no-one is left behind as we go through massive wage adjustments in the context of mega inflation to handle the massive debt and trade deficit.

... that's assuming any of the money DOES come back into the country rather than just sit offshore until the silent invisible ones need to buy the next dictator into power.

There's that's the worst case ... at least that's worth talking about.

Don't they know Rambo never gave up info when they tortured him?

Although Jack on the TV series 24 hours was always able to force out the info to shut down the ticking time bomb in the hero's nick of time.

Her non admital is admission of torture used.

So why did dhe even agree to go on TV and talk about torture if she says she won't talk about it.

Is she playing coy with the American people. She works in the peoples house on the tax payers wages.
She best start doing the peoples work with us in mind....................

That clip made me feel bad physically. With the background prisoners and all, one gets pictures in the head head of these guys, innocent or not, going off to torture-camp...

Politically it's incredible that they even would put someone forward to try to defend this.

Fascist States of America @ 87:

"The sad thing is, most of the Dems now running will most likely continue this horrid, tragic policy."

I totally agree with this. I fear Hillary Clinton would become just the next abuser of everything Bush has paved the path for.

I plan to make a personal plea to John Amato after the next elections to continue to hold whatever party to account to start undoing all the damage Bush has done.

If not, I hope to see Crooks & Liars call wrong wrong, no matter the party or president.

It's not progress just because it might be our party doing the torturing or whatever else.

It's obvious you're new here.

Fran Townsend, President's George W Bush's homeland security adviser:

"The United States does not torture. Do we have a program? Yes we do. People who participate in that program are carefully trained with more than 250 hours of training," she said.

250 hours is just a little over six weeks. That isn't much of a training program. Most military training schools are 16 weeks long, and that's just bare bones training.

It seems like torture is being used to secure confessions of guilt from the detainees. That has nothing to do with national security and everything to do with circumventing the judicial process.

Every time the administration defends it's torture policy it talks about information gained, but those few ex-detainees who have been interviewed weren't asked for information, they were asked to confess their guilt. That's not protecting our country, that's perverting the course of justice. Perversion of the course of justice is a criminal offence.

The clip of our military leading hooded and shackled prisoners off a plane brought to mine old ciips of the Nazis herding people off cattle cars and into the camps. We will be vilified for decades to come with these clips. Our government has caused this country to be covered with a stain that will never wash away.