The White House defense for torture: UPDATED with video
By Steve Benen Thursday Oct 04, 2007 7:20am
(h/t Scarce)
The debate over U.S. torture policy erupted yesterday on the Hill, in the wake of yesterday’s NYT blockbuster, highlighting secret legal opinions from the Bush administration, which endorsed “the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.”
The president’s aides fanned out to deny, defend, and spin the revelations, but for my money, the most impressive argument came by way of Frances Fragos Townsend.
White House homeland security adviser Frances Fragos Townsend also dismissed objections to the CIA program yesterday, saying during an appearance on CNN that al-Qaeda members are trained to resist harsh interrogations. She said that “we start with the least harsh measures first” and stop the progression “if someone becomes cooperative.”
First, the notion of being trained to resist drownings has always seemed rather far-fetched. Unless al Qaeda has figured out a way to equip terrorists with gills, there isn’t much anyone can to prepare for waterboarding.
But it’s that second part that’s particularly noteworthy. As Townsend described it, on national television, the painful physical and psychological tactics, which are unlawful, are suspended when the detainees “becomes cooperative.” In other words, “We stop torturing when we get what we want out of the suspect.”
That’s not a defense for abuse; that’s insane.
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good morning. frist.
Well, at least they aren't torturing for sport!
How many days till 1/20/09?
Impeachable, prosecutable, shameful.
I just don't know what to say! I'm sickened by it all.
So, did the CNN reporter/anchor/etc. actually follow-up the point with a question about how you can defend torture by saying we stop once the torture has worked? Because, albeit less harmful physically, the failure our the US media to do so is just as shameful as is the use of torture.
“we start with the least harsh measures first” and stop the progression “if someone becomes cooperative.”
- Yeah, we stop when the prisoner start telling us what we suspect to hear. The Iraq war might have been started based on false information extracted through torture.
That's kinda like saying, "We stop killing them when they're dead."
So if you really don't know what they are asking you, be prepared for the works.
And our Founding Fathers weep as they see what has happened to us...
Did we fight so that we wouldn't have to live under a tyranical king only to be stuck with living under a tyranical elected king? If so, we haven't accomplished much, have we?
So Townsend basically defined what torture is with fancy words, and used it as a defense to use torture... and I bet every pundit and American will buy it. When all else fails, baffle 'em with bullshit.
They torture. The victim says anything to make the torture stop. When we hear what we want to hear--"information" that backs the policy--we stop.
How do we verify the "information"? We torture another victim.
I miss the USSR. When they were around, behaving like this, our leaders refused to torture at the very least to prove we were better than the USSR. Now, with no one else to be the "bad guys", Our Dear Leaders feel free to use all the Soviet's tricks.
I miss my country.
philcozz @ 6:
I saw part of that interview yesterday. It was Wolf Blitzer and he was not taking any excuses. Townsend kept saying, "The United States does not torture."
Because, of course, they have found compliant lawyers to define torture as anything other than what the US does.
Wolf kept pressing and i could not watch or listen to her lies so i turned it off.
I kinda like the idea of breaking the law only until I get what I want, then I'll stop.
Wouldn't you just love it if at the inauguration, whoever the democratic president elect is, after being sworn in, stepped up to
the podium for their speech and said the following:
My fellow Citizens, my first act as president is to arrest the former administration for crimes against humanity and turn them over to the world court. Officers please step forward and remove the criminals....................
EMPY @ 9:
That is the scary part. The less you know, the more you get tortured.
Happy Inquisition, everyone.
Seems to me her comments back up exactly what we suspect. She is saying in so many words that yes we do stuff to people to make them tell us what we want to hear. That stuff gets worse and worse until they say whatever we wanted them to say. Once they say it, we stop. We just don't call it "torture" because "torture" is something worse than what we do. All in all, they torture people but they don't call it that.
If you get caught robbing a bank, just say you weren't robbing the bank, you were just making a forceful withdrawal.
An Average Joe @ 3:
Way to many for me!!!
Do you think the chimp even remembers standing up in front of the country and practically swearing to gord that the US doesn't and wouldn't torture people?
Someone needs to read the "dumbed down dictionary" to him and teach the criminal git what word "Integrity" means and why he doesn't have any. Why he and his entire criminal party never will.
Then his lawyer needs to explain in detail what "Impeach" means. Hopefully they'll have plenty of time to do that while he's in jail.
Just to get the point across do you suppose they could treat him to the hospitality at guantanamo?
No,...what's really insane is that the american people actually condone this type of behavior! I can prove it quite easily---- absolutely no one is going to do a fucking thing about this therefore it will continue! Seriously,....check ourselves. Besides all of us finger-fucking our keyboards to death in righteous indignation what will actually be done? The sad inescapable truth is that if the american people really felt horrified and disgusted by the Bush regime atrocities something would have really already been done about this! Seriously. Nothing has been done and nothing will be done! Bush and Cheney will get away with it all! Sad fact but true. Look at Gonzo! He's out of the Whore House scott-free with complete and utter impunity. He'll never see the inside of a jail cell despite his obvious and heinous violations of the Constitution. All of these miserable sub-human pieces of shit in the Bush administration are never going to see a day in jail! They will actually be paid, in fact, on the lecture circuit---quite handsomely---by the very sheeple who keep them in power. Those of us who know are simply too few. And all the others simply don't care. So, other then venting, all our screaming and indignation will amount to jack shit! It's tiring actually.......
pissed off patricia @ 17:
That is exactly what she is saying, but there must be a secret rule that you have to answer every question about torture with, "The United States does not torture." After you say that you can go ahead and explain how we do it.
Blue Buddha @ 11:
In other words, if the president does it, it's not torture.
They probably do anything except something that would leave a lasting mark or scar on the detainee. Can't leave signs or evidence.
That smug bitch Perino, interpreting the Geneva convention. If we ever are fortunate enough to impeach these tyrants, no amnesty for you Dana.
Of course, everyone who is tortured is obviously guilty. Just ask John Wayne Gacy or Japanese interrogators in WWII.
Oh wait, never mind.
She said that “we start with the least harsh measures first” and stop the progression “if someone becomes cooperative.”
Oh, right, right, it's only torture if they don't cooperate.
One can only hope that Dante was right about the levels of hell.
Shakespeare: "A rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet."
Bush: "If we use the same techniques that the Nazis used, but we call it 'forceful interrogation' - it isn't 'torture!'"
Me: "Equine-derived organic fertilizer remains horse shit, regardless of the verbiage used."
Another must see video.
http://www.brasschecktv.com/page/164.html
I just read a book about the Inquisition, and it was no different from what is being done today. Prisoners were not told what they were being charged with - they had to play some kind of sick guessing game as to who accused them and what was said or done. Then they threw them in prison for a few days so they could think about what crime was committed. If they still didn't guess right, they took them to the torture rooms. The poor prisoners would admit to anything to stop the torture. We haven't progressed much in 600 years.
miss skeptic @ 29:
The Pit and the Pendulum. Just don't get in the pit cause Cheney is swinging the pendulum.
History will look back and ask why we didn't protest or impeach.
If thr Reich wing was to admit to any of their misdeeds, they could be charged with war crimes or worse. They will deny, deny, deny because they could be executed or end up life in prison. Someone is going to slip up.
Our Navy Seals are taught to resist torture in SERES, but I don't think that there would be anyone in the administration cheering if they were being tortured by a foreign entity. What morally bankrupt fucks.
Sorta interested in knowing what the least harsh measures are.
pretty please tell us what we want to hear?
you're a very bad boy?
go sit in the corner?
Or sleep deprivation, inadequate food, and hypothermia?
from Glenn Greenwald in Salon dot com October 4...
...It has long been known that we are torturing, holding detainees in secret prisons beyond the reach of law and civilization, sending detainees to the worst human rights abusers to be tortured, and subjecting them ourselves to all sorts of treatment which both our own laws and the treaties to which we are a party plainly prohibit. None of this is new.
And we have decided, collectively as a country, to do nothing about that. Quite the contrary, with regard to most of the revelations of lawbreaking and abuse, our political elite almost in unison has declared that such behavior is understandable, if not justifiable.
...All of these subversive and grotesque policies -- the Yoo/Addington theories of the imperial presidency, torture, rendition, illegal surveillance, black sites -- began as secret, illegal Bush administration policies. But the more they are revealed, and the more we do nothing about them, the more they become our own.
...The current policies of the U.S. Government still include, in undiluted form, the Bush administration's theories of unlimited presidential power; the lawless powers of indefinite, due-process-free imprisonment even of U.S. citizens (as applied to Jose Padilla); the use of black sites; the asserted right to spy on Americans with no warrants or legal constraints. None of that has gone away. We just decided to accept it.
Dhalgren, I don't think history will have to look too far back. No telescope needed on this one.
What kind of a sick fu*king mind can look at torturing human beings and say it's okay? Sounds like the mind of a criminal to me.
In other words, we have determined that 2 + 2 = 5.
We apply harsh interrogation techniques, starting with the least harsh, and ask the suspect what 2 + 2 is.
He keeps saying 2 + 2 = 4. We know this isn't true, so we move on to harsher techniques.
Finally, the suspect screams that 2 + 2 = 5, confirming what we've known all along.
====
Notice that Townsend doesn't deny that we've been using these harsh techniques (including waterboarding), only repeating the assertion that we don't torture. Because the legal opinion says it ain't so.
Can one of the lawyers out there explain the difference between a legal opinion and actual law? I would think that the opinion lacks the force of law, and it's kind of a crap shoot if you pin your defense on that.
That was a chilling interview. Phrases such as "put them into the program" coming out of this automaton's maw like it was a part of doing normal everyday business was beyond sickening.
There's going to be an accounting... a reckoning... but sadly, it's the innocent public who sat and looked the other way (or worse, cheerleaded with their ignorance) idly while this all happened (it's been years - there's no excuse anymore so can the American public-at-large even be referred to as innocents anymore... when the next attack comes?) who will pay - not the policy makers - they never do.
Hide the salami
:D
Ron @ 28:
That is a good video but it does not convince me to vote for Ron Paul. He would remove funding from everything including public education if he had his way.
I bet I could take an acetylene torch, some rubber tubing and a hacksaw and make any loyal Bushie admit he was not only the second shooter on the grassy knoll, but also the queen of England.
Dhalgren @ 31:
We have protested. We voted for people who we expected would impeach. They have not impeached and our protests have been ignored by the Corporate Media.
Besides, history requires human beings to write it. Will there be any after we start the nuclear war?
There is no justification for torture.
Everyone who agrees should inundate their representatives with phone calls and emails regardless of their party or political persuasion. If you are outraged, they need to know.
Rendition - illegal
Torture - illegal
Aggressive war - illegal
Guantanamo - illegal
Suspending Habeas Corpus - illegal
Using mercenary forces - illegal
And everyone knows that this has been going on. But no one does anything about it. This isn't a new revelation, this is just additional confirmation of something everyone that has been paying attention already knew. But, it will disappear just like all the rest because people in this country have a two second attention span. And there is no question that, unless they have been completely asleep, the people in Congress know all of this. They must not have that much of a problem with it. A large portion of country doesn't have that much of a problem with it. What does that say about us as a nation?
Garlic, that video made me laugh out loud more than once. Thanks! I needed that as a break from all the heavy depressing news today. :-P
xoites defends Constitution @ 40:
I wouldn't vote for him either. I just wanted to point out what they have planned for the future.
navyswan @ 44:
It says were too dependent on the current quality of life to surrender it to the hardship and effort associated with revolution.
Zenrage @ 47:
No, I think it means we are morally bankrupt pussies.
Terrorists have gills?!?! WILL THEY STOP AT NOTHING?!
navyswan @ 48:
Nope. I know you are not and i know i am not. There must be another explanation.
The Corporate Media
A Compliant Congress
A Right Wing Judiciary
A Megolomaniacal President
A nation divided by race, culture, class, economics, religion and distracted by Brittney Spears And OJ Simpson.
So when do the impeachment trials begin? Wait, we have a spineless congress that may never do anything about the criminal element sent to Iraq, and into the executive, judicial, and legislative branches of the United States.
I guess that's what our country was built on. Seeing that American resources are running dry, the new America will be the middle east. Let me know when we can run out and claim land.
Zenrage @ 47:
...or even organized protest. The American Idol-class is too fat and happy at the moment.
Thanks to the Repukes, though, we're headed in the right direction.
RepubAnon @ 27:
"In other words, “We stop torturing when we get what we want out of the suspect.”
That statement in itself should prove that torture is ineffective. I'd bet that every legitimate terrorist group out there knows as well. If you give an agency something they want they will stop the torture as soon as they get it. So, you just provide a convincing lie when you have had enough which then will lead that agency on a wild goose chase. Other suspects could do the same which will lead that agency to even more wild goose chases. Now of course, when that agency finds out that they are lies the repercussions will be severe but that to is well known and expected. If this happens enough times, the agencies case(s) will be so full of pieced together inaccuracies that they will be onto something totally wrong. Heck they taught the same methods to us in the service. All factual knowledge that you are allowed to give are name, rank, and serial number. Beyond that, you give the enemy wrong information or lies. John McCain, above anyone else should know that this is the case.
Joe O. @ 54:
Even if the suspect is a terrorist and does give them information about other terrorists plans the information they give would probably be null and void after they confess. The other terrorists would likely know that one of theirs is missing and would more than likely change their plans.
I bet if they canceled American Idol we would hear more of an uproar than this torture story is getting.
pissed off patricia @ 56:
The only tv I saw it on was Countdown.
torture me once shame on you...torture me twice,shame on me.
Democrats Demand Interrogation Memos
xoites defends Constitution @ 59:
WH has already refused.
This subject will be under the radar as soon as we start the next news cycle after the three day weekend. Maybe Brittney Spears will drive off a cliff or something and we can all forget about living in a country that allows slim to represent us to the world.
MN USA @ 43:
For months--hmmm, by now it's years--I've been inundating my representatives (and everyone else's, the "leadership", and anyone on the other side who seems even slightly sensible, plus the Democratic party's so-called organization) with increasingly-strident emails, letters, phone calls, petitions, and even a few brief in-person conversations. I've gotten responses from a number of them, but no results. My frustration level is incredible, but I'm stymied. Guess it's time to find the pitchfork and head for the streets, which we'd better do before Blackwater starts patrolling them.
Straight up peeps:
The head ignoramuses were asleep at the switch six years ago, thinking more about how to the raid that fat old treasury surplus, I suspect, and a bunch of fanatical assholes gave us a bloody nose. Caught with their heads up their asses the ignoramuses have been overcompensating with the cheap, easy, and available (which torture, and rendition, and illegal spying are, sad to say) rather than doing the hard and patient works necessary to get it right. In the process they are sullying our reputation in a number of ways oh and violating laws both domestic and international. You couldn't have picked a worse bunch of ass clowns to be minding and running the store at this particular juncture in history if you tried. I keep waiting to wake up in front of the t.v. and realize it has all been some bad network drama. Path to nine one one anyone? Boo Yaaaa!!!!
Consider herr dubyah has been wrong or has lied on every issue over the last 7 years, it's safe to say his people are indeed involved in torturing.
the connies think torturing people that aren't white is okay because they think they are less than human
patthemonkey @ 61:
Will Paris Hilton be in the T-Bird with her?
Of course, there is always the possibility that the person who is being tortured knows absolutely nothing. Imagine the horror of being tortured, and the only way to stop the torture is to disclose information that you know nothing about. Not only that, but the torture is going to get progressively worse until you start talking.
The only way out is to lie, and the lie confirms your guilt. Later when you try to deny your guilt, you'll get the old, "were you lying then or are you lying now". So now that they've established that you're a liar, it's very difficult to get anyone to believe you. And now that you know what their torture techniques are, they'll never let you go anyway, because those techniques are a "Secret".
The fact that any random repug minion can stand up at any time and spew an endless stream of misinformation, half truths and bold faced lies as easily as if they were reading a grocery list is infuriating beyond expression. Not to mention illegal in most cases. But it's Ok as long as you're a repug.
Not one of those political cardboard cutouts has a clue in regards to what they're actually talking about but they're all 100% certain it's the right, good, honest truth because it came from the shrub co. crime family and that's good enough for them.
Again. Another perfect parallel to Germany in the 30's and 40's.
You can't fly without pre-clearance, a dna sample and assurances from three reliable sources that you're not a fucking shoe bomber; it's ok for cops to tazer, beat and jail you indefinitely if you happen to be wearing a t-shirt they don't like but hey! American idol is on so who cares right?
Democrats Demand Interrogation Memos
Ron Says:
WH has already refused.
Well by god, it's time for another sternly worded letter from Harry Reid and the Dems.
Dean @ 69:
Just saying that they'll write a letter is enough.
What do you suppose "political willingness question" means? Willingness to break the law?
so... Bush says the US doesn't torture...
so what did we need secret CIA black sites for?
2 + 2 = 5!
So they're finally admitting that they do in fact torture.
“We stop torturing when we get what we want out of the suspect.”
"We stop torturing..."
let's run that back again...
"We stop torturing when..."
Mr. Bush, what the hell is this guy talking about? Aren't you going to fire him for suggesting that the U.S. tortures people?
Torture - on both domestic and foreign soils = the bush 43 legacy!
they only stopped long enough to get gonzalez confirmed - less than 30 days.
xoites defends Constitution @ 59:
Demand? BWAHAHAHAHAHA
philcozz @ 6:
So bringing someone to the point of death is less harmful physically?
Carmikl @ 71:
Triumph of the Will, no doubt.
But seriously, the same vague concept that Cheney invoked when they talked about the having the 'guts' for this fight, or having the 'will' to win.
It's the same question terrorists ask before they don a vest and go stand at the bus stop. Do they have the political will?
We have become the enemy.
miss skeptic @ 29:
funny thing about christians, everything they do is ok.
So where is the evidence of this? Were there arrests? Other than a few ridiculous wannabes, I don't remember any real bad guys doing the perp walk. I don't remember any stories about weapons caches or bomb factories. The Bush administration does not keep these things a secret. They hold news conferences about even the silliest bogus threats.
"We don't torture all of 'em, just the ones who won't play ball. What's wrong with that?"
These people are nucking futs!
jb
The sad thing is, most of the Dems now running will most likely continue this horrid, tragic policy.
It's people like Francis Townsend that make me hope there is a God and it gives a shit cause I am willing to bet she is a fine upstanding church attending person I can only hope that roast in her God's deepest HELL
Yeah repugs think a lot of suffering, disspare, hopelessness is a laugh riot. Remember when chimpy went to a vet hospital and compared his little boo-boo on his empty head to a vet who was maimed during his war?
These people are Christians? Yeah right.
Will Nancy be convicted of war crimes? Isn't taking impeachment off the table considered enabling?
I'm not sure if it means they've won or not but they have succeeded in making me live in fear. Not of terrorist, but of them. I don't fear for myself but for my grandchildren.
I'm calling Nancy again today and asking if she is ready for her war crimes trial.
There is no such thing as secret torture techniques. First of all, it's not likely that the CIA has developed anything that hasn't been used by someone somewhere before. There's nothing new about waterboarding, it's just an updated version of witchdunking. Many of the techniques used now were probably used 2000 years ago.
Secondly, there are no secrets in a prison. If an inmate wasn't the actual victim of torture, he knows the details of what was done to another inmate. The only way to keep it a secret is to never ever let anyone go. Don't let them have visitors, especially attorneys. Don't let them write letters.
Legal representation for Guantanamo detainees must be a real nightmare for the Bush administration. It's more about keeping the attorneys quiet than the right to legal representation.
"The sad thing is, most of the Dems now running will most likely continue this horrid, tragic policy."
I totally agree with this. I fear Hillary Clinton would become just the next abuser of everything Bush has paved the path for.
I plan to make a personal plea to John Amato after the next elections to continue to hold whatever party to account to start undoing all the damage Bush has done.
If not, I hope to see Crooks & Liars call wrong wrong, no matter the party or president.
It's not progress just because it might be our party doing the torturing or whatever else.
The worst part about this is it costs alot (in terms of our reputation throughout the world and wasted time and resources following BS torture induced leads) and has no benefits. It just doesn't work. Torture causes people to make stuff up - to say whatever the interragator wants to hear.
I think the real problem here is the insular attitude of the people in charge. Psychology has known for a long time that torture deson't work.It's not outrageous to assume that this administration simply didn't consult with any experts that might tell them something that they don't want to hear: that there's a mountain of evidence that torture doesn't work, and very little indicating that it does. They already know, just like everything else. No matter what science it is, there's an administration official who ignorantly pushes it aside.
Notice the President's sleight of hand. Geneva prohibits all abuse; but the President changes the focuse from abuse to whether something is or is not torture. Some torture is illegal. All torture is illegal. Some abuse is illegal. All abuse is illegal. However, some abuse is not torture.
Saying "we don't torture" doesn't address whether it is or is not abuse.
What do they do to make it up to the ones where they are mistaken?
If someone has a heart attack, chokes to death, or dies of shock, is that ok, because the torture is ok?