60 Minutes: "Bombing Afghanistan"
By Nicole Belle Sunday Oct 28, 2007 5:02pm
Download | play 
Download | play (h/t Bill for videos)
CBS:
After six years, the liberation of Afghanistan has become a triumph without victory. The fighting is the greatest it has been since the beginning of the war and more civilians are dying. In fact, 60 Minutes was surprised to hear this: while the enemy has killed hundreds of civilians this year, a similar number of civilians have been killed by American forces. With relatively few troops there, the U.S. and NATO rely on air power. The number of civilians killed in air strikes has doubled.
60 Minutes wondered whether civilian deaths are undermining the effort to win the Afghan people.
You think? This is the part that stood out:
"There's this macabre kind of calculus that the military goes through on every air strike, where they try to figure out how many dead civilians is dead bad guy worth," says Marc Garlasco, who knows the calculus of civilian casualties as well as anyone.[..]
"Our number was 30. So, for example, Saddam Hussein. If you're gonna kill up to 29 people in a strike against Saddam Hussein, that's not a problem," Garlasco explains. "But once you hit that number 30, we actually had to go to either President Bush, or Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld."
Garlasco says, before the invasion of Iraq, he recommended 50 air strikes aimed at high-value targets -- Iraqi officials.
But he says none of the targets on the list were actually killed. Instead, he says, "a couple of hundred civilians at least" were killed.
The full video and transcripts are available on CBS's website.
Login or Register to post comments.
Winning/bombing their hearts and minds....one bomb at a time.
unconscionable... and outrageous!
Nothing like the mathematics of war (led by a man who couldn't pass high-school algebra).
"liberation" ? .............. what is this double speak rubbish ........
Find out what's going on from Mr Kent : http://skyreporter.com
"proportional" ....... Why does everyone wearing a US military uniform sound like a mindless brutal killer ........... oh wait a lot of them are .........
Our number was 30..
And 3839 since 3/19/03 and counting....
So who is this guy Marc Garlasco quoted above? If,as he say, HE recommended 50 bombing
and "none of the targets on the list were killed"(but instead civilians were), why in the
world would HE recommend/approve of the bombings. Is he some kind of idiot? He must be
working for the Defense/Pentagon since that would explain his irrational behavior.
To me the ultimate outrage is that President Hamid Karzai states at the end of this interview that he met privately with Bush and told him to roll back the air strikes and now he feels that he has to go through 60 minutes and U.S. television media because the President did not listen to his demand. Will the mainstream media ignore this too?
they only consider white lives to have meaning
Sounds to me like the US Government/Military Industrial Complex just needs a place to drop bombs so we can order more and give another $50bn to one of Cheney's pals.
Can you imagine the outrage if innocent bystanders killed in a American city were called "Collateral Damage"? Would we tolerate artillery or air strikes used on a house in an American neighborhood even if it was know as a fact that Osama Bin Laden was in that house? Would we trade even one innocent American life for Osama Bin Laden?
Why do we tolerate a formula that allows for a certain number innocent Afghani or Iraqi deaths in exchange for the deaths of X number of bad guys?
You know it's bad when Karzai, a former US Corporate guy who was installed by Bush-Cheney Ltd, would say "cool it with the bombs already!".
He's their man and he doesn't even like it -- either that or they don't want him to get killed by his own countrymen so they've assigned him an anti-Bush co stance to keep his cover.
right on! @ 2:
Yep. I have a good friend in military intelligence. He's fond of referring to himself as the "only liberal in the Marines," though the last time I hung out with him, he mentioned that more and more people in the military were rethinking their allegiances to conservative politicians.
He also mentioned that at the moment, the administration is trying to find a way simply to hand off the messes in Iraq and Afghanistan to local warlords, pull out, and credibly call it a victory. Unconscionable and outrageous were two of the words he used to describe the administration he has unfortunately had to work for. (He can't say that publicly, though.)
leftybydesign @ 7:
Completely.
Though they will attempt to vilify anyone who helps and country under siege to defend itself against an aggressor : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3277029.stm
As a total opposite of the the book "How to Make Friends and Influence People", a book
about our mistakes/errors in Afghan would appropriately be entitled "How to Bomb Civilians
and Make Enemies". Dumb ass way to wage a war.
Given that the Democrats are fearful of looking weak on military matters, one approach is for them to call for large amounts of equipment and numbers of troops to be transferred to Afghanistan to bolster the fight against the Taliban there. They would just need to keeping harping on the fact that the resurgence of the Taliban in Afghanistan is a far larger threat to the U.S. than the civil war in Iraq.
Who on earth could be "wondering" whether civilian deaths are undermining the effort to win the Afghan people?
There is a big difference between war and murder. Afghanistan is definitely the latter and every American including, those posting here and myself, are murderers.
jr @ 8:
Bingo.
For comparison, there were 12 Columbine High School students killed in 1999 and the entire country knew about it and heard about it for years.
Tom Hartman said on his radio show that air strikes just don't belong in a counter-insurgency strategy. You make more enemies than you kill.
Lets call it what it is: war is institutionalized mass murder. And lets not forget, this war is being waged for profit.
Usama bin Forgotten @ 17:
Pretty much, just have to find a few more that realise that to do something about it now.
"Terrorism is the war of the poor.
War is terrorism of the rich."
Peter Ustinov
How many terrorists do you think have been created in the effort to kill a few others.
I tell you this. If had been my family who'd had their guts and brains blown out by the oh-so-brave heroes of 'freedumb', I'd be F#$KING PISSED OFF.
"Garlasco says, before the invasion of Iraq, he recommended 50 air strikes aimed at high-value targets — Iraqi officials"
Does this sound like a crime against humanitry or a war crime to anybody else !,
to deliberately target a government's civilian officials,
these are not armed forces personnel actively engaged in warfare on the battlefield.
"Terrorists can be defeated simply by not becoming terrified — that is, anything that enhances fear effectively gives in to them." - JOHN MUELLER Ohio State University
I'm sure that applies to the crap the media spins, as well as how dis-empowered the US people feeling against their government.
Someone liked to a report done by him in another thread, ideal reading for all.
"...6 years since since the liberation of Afghanistan,..."
So, 60 minutes wants to define "liberation" as: a foreign army invades a country and kills/removes locals from running their government. The foreign army installs a new set of locals friendly to Texas oil money, and then protects the new government with force which results in hundreds of locals killed every year. This is "liberation"?
I've had enough of this "liberal" media.
ferrofluid @ 21:
The goal was to eradicate anything that was remotely related to Saddam's regime. They wanted Saddam gone along with his bureaucrats, friends, and institutions. The only ones that were spared were the Iraqi national guard that was disbanded instead of being killed.
If tomorrow all the things were gone,
I’d worked for all my life.
And I had to start again,
with just my children and my wife.
I’d thank my lucky stars,
to be livin here today.
‘ Cause the flag still stands for freedom,
and they can’t take that away.
And I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘ Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.
From the lakes of Minnesota,
to the hills of Tennessee.
Across the plains of Texas,
From sea to shining sea.
From Detroit down to Houston,
and New York to L.A.
Well there's pride in every American heart,
and its time we stand and say.
That I’m proud to be an American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘ Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.
And I’m proud to be and American,
where at least I know I’m free.
And I wont forget the men who died,
who gave that right to me.
And I gladly stand up,
next to you and defend her still today.
‘ Cause there ain’t no doubt I love this land,
God bless the USA.
fuddled @ 23:
Quite, best burn it with collage, university, books, common sense etc ..........
I wonder what the proportional number will be here in Amerika when they unleash Blackwater to kill domestic (read liberal, Dems, non Rethuglicants) "terrorists".
Will white sometimes Christian domestics have a lower proportional number, say 10, or 20, because we are mostly not dark skinned Muslims?
They're pretty freewheeling with the Tasers right now.
“Our number was 30. So, for example, Saddam Hussein. If you’re gonna kill up to 29 people in a strike against Saddam Hussein, that’s not a problem,” Garlasco explains. “But once you hit that number 30, we actually had to go to either President Bush, or Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld.”
the epitomizing distinction between a military mindset and a police mindset... imposing control versus the enforcement of law and order... it's a short stretch to imagine if our police applied such "collateral damage" strategies in their jobs, we'd have the same form of perpetual chaos, violence, death and destruction... ya... let's let the military take over the drug warz, 'cause if they know one thing, they know war.
fuddled @ 23:
90% of them, enablers, cheerleaders, paid shills, paid liars of hideous crimes they are.
We are also bombing a lot more in Iraq now -- makes the surge numbers look prettier and also wisely follows the ol' Cambodian approach to winning over the populace: by killing lots more children, pregnant women and old folks from the air.
I'll bet that if the civilians are White, the magic number is a lot lower than 30.
The main problem with collateral damage (besides killing innocent people) is the families of civilian casualties won't forget and won't forgive. And they won't forget for generations.
This will just breed even more terrorism.
Bush and his supporters say there hasn't been any terrorism since 9/11. Not true. Quite a number of the insurgents are actually Iraqis who are pissed that their family members have been killed or ticked off that we are occupying their country. And actually each IED attack on an American in Iraq can be considered a terrorist act in my book. It's revenge they are after and why come here to attack us when they can pick us off over there?
There weren't terrorists in Iraq gunning for Americans before we invaded but there sure are a hell of alot now.
We've invaded two Muslim countries and planning to invade another one. We back a country that invades Muslim countries (Isreal). Common sense tells you that this behavior is just going to breed more animosity towards the US. But the neo-cons lack any common sense.
Bush can't even defeat the Taliban?
fuddled @ 23:
I agree with you for the most part, but the Taliban were not native afghanis or "locals." They invaded from Pakistan with the support of the mujahadeen who were arabs mostly.
Permit me to say, that I think there was a point in the program where Afghan people, who were directly affected by American civilian deaths, due to American air raids, were exclaiming that the SOVIETS WERE MORE KIND TO THE AFGHAN PEOPLE THAN THE AMERICANS!
"We used to hate the Russians much more than Americans," the villager replied. "But now when we see all this happening, I am telling you Russians behave much better than the Americans."
Can't you see it people? These are your bombs paid for by your taxes. If there is to be an insurrection, let it be in a place that you may not be so familiar.. your own country.
Old Billy @ 34:
I'm not a scholar in the area by any means, but the majority were from a tribe that exists in an area of southern Afghanistan and Pakistan. The entire region's borders were made up by the Brits 100 years ago anyway. I only recommend the links at Wiki for convenience, and not for accuracy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durand_Line
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pashtunistan
Heya! Watch this in all its five parts.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9Ecd6361Ls
"History of Oil" describes poignantly, our proscribed dependence on 'Texas Tea, Black Gold, Bubblin' Crude, Oil that is.'
America has liberated the shit out of Afghanistan, and now they're all so grateful, they'd like to kill every one of us.
According to the report, the military officials in charge of the air war over Afghanistan and Iraq admit to aborting strikes on possible insurgents or terrorists to the tune of "thousands and thousands a month" because they don't meet their standards of certainty of "proportionality".
Hey, aren't the Clinton-haters constantly whining over that reputed (and highly questionable) 8 to 10 strikes on Osama bin Laden that were aborted under the Clinton administration?
LOL! So let's see if they continue to think all 8 to 10 of those possible strikes met the standards of certainty or "proportionality" on Clinton's watch while "thousands and thousands a month" are being aborted on Bush's watch!
I'm reminded of a quote from the Nam..."we had to destroy the village in order to save it".This same convoluted logic applies here. 29 innocents to get 1 "bad guy",that's acceptable?No,that's insane.
Let's replace war with fight.Now I don't know about the rest if you,but whenever I got into a fight (long ago) I brought my A game...I was gonna kick your ass,or at the very least,do my best to,and if I lost I'd go home and lick my wounds.
War,in my estimation,has become clouded with rules and protocol and a shit load of planning that ultimately defeats us.I mean,come on...we are fighting a bunch of rag tag shits whose only advantage are roadside bombs that any black wearing emo/goth fucktard can make in the privacy of their own woefully unsupervised by parents room,and while they are not kicking our asses they certainly aren't losing any ground.
If it wasn't so tragic,it would be laughable.The largest, most powerful military in the world stymied by a bunch of malcontents in UCLA sweatshirts and addidas running pants,equipped with shitty AK's and SKS's.
Pathetic.
If we had gone in full bore and fully committed in Afghanistan and didn't have the Iraq debacle looming over us,our guys and gals would all be home now.
I'm reminded of another nam quote...this one from full metal jacket.
Animal Mother:"Freedom?Flush out your head gear new guy,if I'm gonna die for a word,my word is poontang".
Bush blew it from the get-go,simple as that.
Do you remember "Shock N Awe?" That was supposed to be the first strike on Baghdad... the one that would be so surgical and effective that the enemy would lay down their arms in shock... and stand in awe of the power of the United States... then BE GRATEFUL that we had come to liberate them from Saddam. Remember?
The BUNKER-BUSTER reign of terror that started this whole mess was aimed at an underground bunker complex inside Baghdad where Saddam was supposed to be hiding. The bombs hit the correct coordinates... but there was a problem. THERE WAS NO GODDAMNED BUNKER THERE! Just a quiet neighborhood full of houses and families, and INNOCENT CIVILIANS!
So Rumsfeld's Shoch N Awe did exactly that... it SHOCKED all those innocent civilians that survived into an active militant counter-insurgency... and it AWED the American people with absolute drop-jawed wonder at the STUPID INCOMPETANCE of Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld.
And now... YEARS LATER... you better not EVER suggest that innocent civilians are killed by our faultless GLORIOUS men and women in uniform, because we're the good guys, and we kill TERRISTS.
God bless Amerika. What a fucking mess this administration has made of our country and the world. I just hate those guys so much.
Apparently this calculus doesn't apply when actually trying to take out Osama bin Laden.
U.S. forces in Afghanistan a couple of years ago had airplanes (and special forces personnel) in the air on their way to raid a suspected bin Laden site in western Pakistan, but the mission was scrubbed at the last minute on someone's orders from the Pentagon (Rumsfeld's?).
Just a few months ago, U.S. intelligence indicated, at least with a 75 percent probability, that bin Laden was in a convoy south of Tora Bora inside Iraq, but this mission was also scrubbed.
These two incidences make a person think that the Bush administration doesn't want to capture or kill Osama bin Laden, but want him to remain on the loose, so he can release even more politically-timed messages that seem to have helped the Republicans since 9/11.
But remember, our forces could have gotten bin Laden and the head Taliban mullah at Tora Bora almost six years ago, if top Bush administration officials, and Rumsfeld at the Pentagon, had responded to the urgent request for more personnel from special forces commanders on the ground in Iraq, who were trying to encircle Tora Bora and cut off any escape routes. Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld blew off this urgent request, and bin Laden and the head Taliban mullah fled across the mountains into Pakistan.
The top levels of the Bush administration are filled with criminals, many of whom are criminally insane, and should be institutionalized, for the safety of our own nation's children.
The President of Afghanistan has to ask Bush to stop bombing his country. Now I wonder how the people of Afghanistan feel about having a President that has to ask the US and not tell them. Don't look for Bush/Cheney to stop bombing Afghanistan until that country gets a real President and not a puppet of the Bush Administration.
Karzai worked for the US Carly Group and was given the job of President of Afghanistan by the Bush Administration and first day on the job he had to sign rights to drill for oil to the US.
Mr. The Oracle and Jackie might be on to something. Meet 'The Carlyle Group'
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2001/11/bushfiles41.html
Yikes!
nothing like not having control, eh? Makes ya think of the Bird Influenza, which has been predicted to kill 80,000,000 people world wide. Nothing like not having control. 80 Million. Got vaccine? Ask yer doctor if life is right for you.
This kind of math is pretty standard stuff for war planners. It's not the kind of thing that we civilians may want to hear but it is the reality of the world. In WWII we destroyed whole cities either to shut down production or to send a message.
I mean, what number of civilians should the military pick? Zero? Then the enemy will just hide in the population and never be touched. I dont see how you could fight any war with rules like those.
.
That people are paid to examine the question, "How many dead bodies to the center of a tootsie pop," form of questioning is scary enough.
That those people put such a value on life, it makes me have to ask, "How much do they value their life? Why can't I devalue their life like they do others?"
They call themselves patriots because they give their life for the Nation. That would be true, IF they placed a value on life. But no, they tend to throw it around like rag dolls on a fire.
.
We may not understand these mathematical "gymnastics" (!!!) the military is using (and they are utter rubbish-- number crunching to validate murder)
But we certainly do understand the "gynmastics" the Bush administration is using to tell us war is good.
This is a comment to me from over at YouTube: "We all gotta drive. There will always be wars. Pray and seek guidance for your troubled LIFE."
This is what we're fightin' against folks.
Sorry if double post, but the last time I posted this it did not show.
Karzai is a puppet of the US government and is virtually powerless in Afghanistan.
He runs the virtual government and has control of the armed forces.
Afghanistan is run by the Clans and their word is law.
Remember Karzai is the guy they put in before the 'elections' and now, surprisingly, is president.
If Karzai wants something done, he goes to the Clans. He needs the Clans in order to fake a government and the Clans want to keep their power.
Thus the trade off between poppy fields and Karzai becoming President.
You get your people to vote for me and I will keep the US off your backs.
The war in Afghanistan was done to replace one government with another.
If people were liberated doing so, great, but we won't let that stop us.
What I find strange is how ignorant people are and worse their desire to stay that way.
On Maher you often get the people babbling about Afghanistan or Iraq or stuff and I often wonder if they read the WH's *American view on the world* pamphlet.
Fact is, the US knew Osama was in Afghanistan because the Taliban told them. They wanted him out because it hurt the *positive* (yeah you read right) relations with the US. But Osama was a hero because he fought the Russians (when terrorism is OK) so they could not just throw him out without facing possible rebellion and facing Osama themselves. ( I would love to see how the US would spin that one. Then again, we are talking about the spin-meisters)
They told the US to come and get him and the US did nothing.
The US were really friendly with the Taliban and delegations were invited to the US. The Oil comps were interested in a gas pipeline through Afghanistan.
Among the hypocrite actions was people in the US defending the Taliban's way of life, only a few months later to denounce them as barbarians.
Quick trivia question: What action by the Taliban outraged the world?
Similar with Iraq or the Sunni/Shiite problems.
'frank @ # 50"
Frank. Thanks.
As for the Pentagon's bombing strategies. In WW Two the British bombed Germany by night and the Ameiicans by day. I knew someone who was in Germany at that time . He was Polish but ended up in Germany working in some factory. He told me that when the British came at night everyone knew more or less where they stood as the British tended to stick to bombing industrial targets. But when the Americans came by day everyone ran for the hills as American bombs were dropping everywhere.
'Old Billy @ #34'
" Taliban were not native Afghans or locals"
The Taliban are/were Sunni/Pashtuns from southern Afhganistan and western Pakistan.
Omar Muhhamad the Taliban leader is Pashtun from the Hotal tribe and Ghilzan clan.
Karzai is also Sunni/Pashtun from another tribe/clan.
They do not get along although Karzai supported the Taliban at the beginning. Karzai has to watch where he goes in Afghanistan . There have been assination attempts.
Most of Pakistan is Shite Muslim.
The Taliban had Al Queda types supporting them but they are locals. Southern Afghanistan/Pakistan is the wild wild west times ten.
This area of the world has a every interesting history but its best if outsiders kept out , especially western countries. Thier track record has not been good.
SCHRODINGER”S CAT @ 51 :
Regarless who came, the people in Germany ran when the bombers came because they also targeted civilians.
It was called 'moral bombings' but the goal was to destroy as much as possible.
First candles were dropped to mark the targets and then fire bombs.
Every town and city was bombed without regard.
Success was measured in how much living space was destroyed.
Often those numbers reached 90%.
Check wikipedia for more information.
Day raids by the Americans were often of strategic value (Schweinfurt f.i.).
What you are probably referring to are the low flying attacks by US forces that would attack anything and often also attacked civilians.
USA is a sick nation... even civilians, knowing they are civilians, got a value! 30 civilians no problems... its worth it. Wonder if USA would apply the same rules if needed to attack fellow americans in US cities.
Stuff happens. USA came along and messed up your country. Such is life.
Say the same when someone else comes by and messes up the US.
I doubt you will.
Login or Register to post comments.