November 05, 2007 10:30 PM
Open Thread
Today on the floor of the United States House of Representatives:
Open Thread below.
House Democrats on Tuesday narrowly managed to avert a bruising debate on a proposal to impeach Dick Cheney after Republicans, in a surprise maneuver, voted in favor of taking up the measure.
Republicans, changing course midway through a vote, tried to force Democrats into a debate on the resolution sponsored by longshot presidential candidate Dennis Kucinich...read on
And boy, the media silence is deafening.
Does this impeachment have a chance of working ?
i saw it and dennis is a poor reader. he messed it up and didn't sound coherent.
Kucinich talks with Tucker about the impeachment resolution he introduced today. Impeachment isn’t just an option when high crimes and misdemeanors are committed, it’s an obligation. Additionally, democracy isn’t just something that happens every four years, regardless of what Tucker thinks. Kudos congressman for crushing Tucker’s smug side-comments while dismantling his entire attack strategy in a cool and rational way. Kucinich was able to put him on the defensive like Stewart did on Crossfire. For those people who don’t think Kucinich could mop the floor with a Republican candidate if he won the nomination, send them this video.
The DNC will bury him.
I love you kuci!!
Make the democrats grow some balls please!
Any links to the vote...
why are people saying media silence?
I heard about it 3 times on CNN and read several articles on the internet.
Stop watching NBC for your news :D
I will applaud Dennis for trying.
Here's where you can reach the members of the Judiciary Committee:
http://judiciary.house.gov/CommitteeMembership.aspx
I recommend actual letters, not e-mail.
This has been killed - this will go to conyers and at most conyers will return it to the floor.
The republicans - who are responsible for sending it to the committee - did so to kill it.
Get over yourselves - the republican fascists run the executive, the legislature and the judiciary. They are in power.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/28469
Kucinich's Resolution Survives Tabling Attempt, Is Referred to Committee
4:41 The motion to send it to the Judiciary Committee passed with only about 5 Dems voting No and 3 Republicans voting Yes. Presumably the 86 Dems who voted No on tabling believed that to be enough to appease their constituents, while 5 Dems actually had integrity enough to put the Constitution ahead of Pelosi and Hoyer. There was no discussion of a time limit for the Judiciary Committee to report back (even though there are precedents for insisting on one with impeachment resolutions). This bill has, of course, ALREADY been in the Judiciary Committee for months, and that committee has done nothing with it.
You'd think if offense (rather than defense) ever entered Pelosi and Hoyer's heads, they'd want to put an hour of Cheney-bashing debate on TV. But they want at all costs to avoid impeachment, and you can't debate the substance of the charges against Cheney without making an obvious case for impeachment.
Roll call. These 5 Dems voted right: Filner, Kaptur, Kucinich, Waters, Towns.
Write the Judiciary Committee:
http://judiciary.house.gov/CommitteeMembership.aspx
Put pressure on them!
At least, it's introduced. Maybe there will be a groundswell for impeachment from the people.
Let's write to the Judiciary Committee and get them to hold hearings.
Well, guess who gets my vote?
Sit down, Hillary.
tr @ 3:
He can read better than the rest of the gutless members of congress who are unable to read the constitution and/or choose not to defend it from an administration that has perpetually abused/violated it.
ronpaulFTW @ 11:
You forget the Hoyers was selected as majority leader over Murtha. The reason is Hoyers is under control of the republicans and Murtha would have been trouble. Dont think democrats really selected Hoyers. Hoyers is vichey just like Lieberman.
ronpaulFTW @ 8:
CNN says the House voted to send it to committee, "effectively killing it." -- http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/. They even give more space to Perino criticizing the Democratic party for spending time on this "rather than focusing on health care for children and veterans." (what a bucking fitch)
I will applaud Dennis for trying.
He's not trying, he's succeeding.
Not in driving Dick Cheney from office. That won't happen.
But he's doing his duty. He's speaking the truth. He's bringing the particulars to the appropriate oversight body.
All this talk of impeachment being a "stunt" or a "distraction" or "off the table" because you can't secure a CONVICTION is the failure. It's the failure of our lawmakers of BOTH parties to do their constitutional duty, even if the system is rigged.
You could never convict a white man of killing a black man in the segregated South. The jury would never convict.
But that doesn't mean that an honorable district attorney should just throw up his hands and not TRY.
Today, the picture is very different in the South.
Now ask yourself, how different would the picture be if no one took up the lost cause of doing the right thing, even in the face of certain failure?
Standing up for what's right is inherent success.
My man. This was a day to remember.
This puts a glaring light on the MSM. Their lack of coverage on the Constitutional process and the will of the American people is both pathetic and shameful.
I agree with jasonS.
He's a politician doing his job and being honest.
People always bitch and say it doesnt happen but it does. Right there.
Oops, shame on the Democratic party - especially you Steny Hoyer and Nancy Pelosi. I don't know which Constitution you think you are protecting and defending.. You might want to check that again...
Honestly the DEMs deserve to lose again if they can't impeach bush and end the war.
They just want to take power themselves and what happens when they sneak in with all those powers and don't restore the constitution?
Clinton is a sellout and almost a neo-con herself.
As long as this bill is debated in the House Judiciary Committee or on the floor of the house it is a win for people who believe our constitution is being compromised and trashed by the very people who took an oath to protect it. It isn;t just Cheney and Bush, it's also the senators and congressmen who vote against the interests of the people in their district in favor of corporate interests becuase lobyist bought their vote.
Nobody wants to see Bush & Cheney IMPEACHED more than I do!
Please, a little reality here. You are not going to get 67% of the Senate to vote yes. They won't even vote to end the war, they're sure as hell not going to vote to remove the bastards!
anon @ 11:
It was the democrats who sent it to committee.
CNN says the House voted to send it to committee, “effectively killing it.”
The Democratically controlled House voted to send it to committee over the objections of the Republicans who wanted to see the issue hashed out on the floor.
What more evidence do you need that the Democrats have no intention, none, of standing up for what's right. They only intend to look for opportunities to win elections.
They've calculated, for whatever reason, that this is a losing proposition for them. That's all that matters.
Constitutional duty be damned.
Now, how does that make them different than the Republicans? What? Because they pander to different groups and therefore strategically recommend different policies?
Same rat, different hat.
Yes, but this deserves to be debated on the floor of the House, instead of being shuffled away behind closed doors in silence. The people of this country have been clamoring for some accountability for a long time now. This deserves to be debated and voted on. They better not try and go against the majority of America and just squelch it. It will be ALL their seats come November 2008. They are supposed to be the voice of the people of this country. It is time they remember it.
Manila Ryce @ 27:
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/
That isnt correct. Republicans crossed to vote it to committee.
It is not dead yet.
You are not going to get 67% of the Senate to vote yes.
So what? Conviction is not the point. Duty is the point.
There's no trick to doing what's right because you know you can win. It's doing what's right when you know you're going to LOSE that's noble.
It's not pointless to have an acquittal on the record. Years from now, history will judge us by how we stand up and be counted, not just on whether we prevail.
Have we become so intoxicated by the power game that we've forgotten what that power is supposed to be in service of?
The Democrats have us trapped into believing that they're always just the poor underdogs who never quite have enough votes to get things done.
It's a lie. It's a damned lie and it should be called out as such. They do have power.
And so do we.
Not. One. Dime.
God Bless Dennis Kucinich, a true leader that is rare in this day and age.
A man of priniciple and conviction. The shortage of such in government is why this country is done for. It would take many more like him to save it. I'm no longer hopeful, at least for the immediate future.
Next up - Articles of Impeachment against Pelosi and Hoyer.
I`m proud to have met Dennis in 2002 and 2003 while working on his campaign.For once I am Proud that I come from Ohio.Now it`s time to get rid of not only Cheney,But also Bush and his bootlicker Jean Schmidt.
You go Dennis.
The courage that this took on the part of Dennis Kucinich is impressive. We all say this is common sense and all, but when it comes down to reading this in front of the historic setting of Washington. It take courage.
Although Manila, your point is taken. The democrats are in fact not in favor of impeachment. True enough.
The Repubs are trying to embarrass Pelosi, but she could rise to the occasion and make this the Dems moment. If approval ratings is what they are worried about, then she had better realize this would shoot the approval ratings through the ceiling. They have a MUCH better chance of being re-elected if they do the work of the people. Of course, the corporate big money people might not be too happy.. but just WHO do they represent?
JasonS #20
I agree. Dennis is doing his job. He's one of a very few in office.
Truth has become fiction. IMO
wordpress is just as bad as haloscan!
Dennis Kucinich has more courage and conviction in his little finger than all of Congress put together. It is time for them to open their eyes and see what it looks like. He is not about "Kucinich", he is about the Constitution and this country. That is the way its supposed to be.
The Dems won't impeach, won't stop funding the war, give The Chimp everything dollar he wants, and OK a pro-torture Attorney General.
The US isn't worth the effort. It's not a country worth saving.
nwmuse @ 31:
Perhaps. But this statement http://judiciary.house.gov/newscenter.aspx?A=880 doesn't sound promising:
Does anyone think that the illegal eavesdropping that has been going on since before 9/11 could have netted some dirt on Pelosi and Hoyer,and a lot more Dems?That could be the reason Impeachment is off the table.Now It`s time for me to take off my tin foil hat and pick my wife up at the airport.
Dems prosecute the Repubs? Why the hell would you expect Yalies and Princetonians to prosecute each other.
JasonS @ 5:
No...
We will bury the DNC.
.
Manila Ryce @ 34:
I'm up for that!
WordPress Sucks!!
sully18 @ 44:
Bolton wasnt confirmed because he wouldnt provide documents he received from Condoleza Rice (in charge of NSA at the time) prior to 9/11 to the committee. Can you imagine what those documents were?
To get a real sense of just how corrupt the top Dems are, you need to realize that the GOP tried to actually help Kucinich push this through. There are two possible reasons for this, 1.) the GOP wants to tie up the Dems in a long, fruitless effort in the hopes of distracting them from pursuing any other agenda. I find this hard to believe given the fact that the Dems have proven so absurdly pliable on every issue without any added effort on the part of the GOP. Given Dana Perino's idiotic attempt to claim that the measure was a waste of time and a distraction from Bush's desire to save the poor widdle childwen, the GOP clearly was hoping to play the conflict out as a failing for the Dems one way or another. 2.)The GOP senses that the Dem base is thoroughly fed up with the Dems, particularly the leadership, and wanted to embarrass them before their constituents by forcing the Dems, not the GOP, to cut the legs out from under Kucinich.
If they were after #2, congradulations, mission accomplished. Seriously, the "not one red cent" movement needs some steam.
"What more evidence do you need that the Democrats have no intention,
none, of standing up for what’s right. They only intend to look for opportunities
to win elections.
They’ve calculated, for whatever reason, that this is a losing proposition for
them. That’s all that matters.
Constitutional duty be damned"
Well, we have taken names....we know who is now considered the 'domestic' enemies.
http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2007/roll1037.xml
noticably absent or abstaining from voting - boxer, feinstein, reid, specter, pelosi, lieberman and clinton...all in duhbya's and crooked dicks pockets, eh?
Your unexcusable inactions will be remembered on election day - Tuesday, November 4th, 2008.
GonzoD @ 47:
I totally agree with this statement.
As Cenk would say (and hear this in his voice) in this situation: "Ladies and Gentlemen, we got him."
Here's the he -
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/06/26/bernie-ward-smacks-down-wingnut...
Here's the Houston Chronicle article about his demise -
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/entertainment/5277902.html
JasonS Says:
You are not going to get 67% of the Senate to vote yes.
So what? Conviction is not the point. Duty is the point.
I understand that, however, once the media gets done with the story it will play as a Repug campaign slogan - "Dems waste taxpayers money & time"!
I know it shouldn't be that way, but i'm trying to be realistic.
i am and have been a democrat for over 40 yrs. i am ashamed of this group of spineless whussies that call themselves democrats. they are the majority in congress and still they let the bastard bullies push them around. WORSE, they are afraid to uphold the Constitiution of the United States because they might lose their prized postion if in fact they follow the law and protect our civil rights. there is only one party in this country of gutless morons. come the 2008 election, we should really look at replacing all the intringent corporate whores.
anon @ 30:
Wrong, Repukes crossed to stop it from being tabled, Dems sent it to committee with
the next 2 votes. Your brain is warped because you watch CNN too much.
What a lousy link, that CNN ticker is biased and wrong.
People that get their news from CNN deserve that trash for news.
That looked like something from Fox, CNN the people who support Glenn Beck,jeez.
It was not a loss for Dennis, people heard about this today.
Too bad that Pelosi has Conyers on a leash it will take some pressure.
All is not lost, we need to have some hearings now.
JasonS @ 28:
Every time you're tempted to say "Same rat..." think back on the state of the nation under Bill Clinton and the state of the nation after seven years of Republican rule. Maybe you can get up and leave, but most people can't and I'll take a Democrat any day. Stay home or vote for a sure loser and we'll have President Rudy.
Kids as young as 7 are suspected
of potential heart attacks. At least one contractor can be held liable. Republiscum governor in Ky. loses a seat. A think tank suggests we should *gasp* build alliances. Will Dubya actually do something about food poisoning?
trevjr @ 57:
There will be no hearings. Stop listening to Rhodes
Our "allies" in Turkey hate
free speech.
trevjr @ 57:
And by the way kid, shove that pissy attitude up your pink ass.
Whether this Bill goes anywhere or not, this is an Historic speech. You do not get to see them too often. This is certainly one which will be shown to people living in a future American democracy.
Just a small spark of justice seems blinding after all these year of reprehensible corruption.
I understand that, however, once the media gets done with the story it will play as a Repug campaign slogan
So what? Where in the oath of office does it say "uphold the constitution of the United States unless the media spin will benefit your political opponents?"
Duty is duty. Party loyalty or saving yourself embarrassment is not part of it.
If this is how the Democrats think, then they really are no better than the Republicans.
sully18 @ 44:
I have thought that all along. It makes perfect sense - and it worked very well for J. Edgar Hoover..
FreedomOfInformationAct @ 52:
This was a vote in Congress not the Senate.
A more pertinent question is where was Ron Paul on this issue?
OT
Read this article from the NY Times, and howl with laughter. A bunch of conservative authors are suing Regnery Publishing, the largest specialty publisher of right-wing books, alleging that they are being scammed out of their royalties:
CONSERVATIVE AUTHORS SUE PUBLISHER
By MOTOKO RICH
Published: November 7, 2007
New York Times
Five authors have sued the parent company of Regnery Publishing, a Washington imprint of conservative books, charging that the company deprives its writers of royalties by selling their books at a steep discount to book clubs and other organizations owned by the same parent company.
In a suit filed in United States District Court in Washington yesterday, the authors Jerome R. Corsi, Bill Gertz, Lt. Col. Robert (Buzz) Patterson, Joel Mowbray and Richard Miniter state that Eagle Publishing, which owns Regnery, “orchestrates and participates in a fraudulent, deceptively concealed and self-dealing scheme to divert book sales away from retail outlets and to wholly owned subsidiary organizations within the Eagle conglomerate.” . . .
http://nytimes.com/2007/11/07/books/07cons.html?8dpc
anon @ 62:
Nothing about your information being wrong? Thought not.
Try posting correct information next time.
God bless you Dennis!!
THIS is the kind of man that we want for president!
The opposite of Dennis Kucinich is what you witnessed today as the congress of the corporations decided that torture is just fine!
Dennis, please start the "official" progressive party and run under that banner. We need and want a viable third party.
Maybe you can get up and leave, but most people can’t and I’ll take a Democrat any day.
Well, then, be satisfied with what you're getting because that's what the Democrats have to offer.
Just because half a bowl of porridge is better than a boot to the head doesn't mean I'm gonna settle for the goddamned porridge.
I obviously prefer the Dems to the Rethugs. So much so, in fact, that I'd rather walk away than watch them debase themselves any further. It's humiliating.
I love this country too much to support this kind of capitulation. This administration isn't just wrong or accidentally unpopular; they're criminals.
And anyone who doesn't have the courage to say so doesn't have the right to call themselves a leader.
And you can scare me with President Rudy the way Rudy tries to scare us with 9/11 every five minutes.
But I'd rather spend the next eight years fighting President Rudy than apologizing and rationalizing President Hillary's war on Iran, which she will be forced to start because, hey, the Republicans called her a bad name!
I wonder if the citizens of Maryland can impeach Hoyer? What does the citizenry do when they know the person they elected to represent them turns out to be a lackey for the opposition party? (And why is it that every time I see this man, I want to ask him to show me the best used car he has on his lot?) It warmed my heart to hear those words from Dennis, they have been long overdue. I hope Dennis has good security. Strong opposition to Republicans tend to lead to death.
I would LOVE to see someone start a "Progressive" party.
christian @ 1:
My thoughts exactly. They only report on what suits the corporate purpose.
73 JasonS
My feelings exactly.
BTW-has anyone else noticed that you cannot contact Hoyer via email unless you live in Maryland. Very convenient.
xoites defends Constitution @ 67:
"Mr. Speaker this resolution has the support of 22 members of the House..." and about 70% of the people in the country.
I am shutting down for tonight. FIrst though - congratulations C&L for you nomination to the 2007 Weblog Awards. You deserve it. :-)
79 trevjr
Thank you, but when i defend people who are correct i am only defending myself.
JasonS @ 73:
I don't think the country could take Rudy's next 2 Supreme Court picks, I will take Hillary's any day.
I agree that even if Cheney isn't impeached this is a good thing that Kucinich did. We should make a list of all the Dems that betray us on this one and GO AFTER THEIR JOBS! Hold special elections to remove these goons one by one, then bring them to trial for treason.
Yup,when you put it all in dialog like that then there is no doubt that this admistration criminally took the USA into war based on nothing more than their own agenda, hats off to you Mr Kuciinch. What's Pelosi/Clinton/Obama/Edwards saying?
Kucinich is the few of Congressional leaders, the brave and the honor that is the spirit of American trust that wants to ferrite out the truth. An impeachment would halt other processes as it should to investigate the spectrum of moral authority that deliberately violated the Constitution.
Cheney and Bush are a curse to America. Those that support this war, its corruption, and the torture exposed are pitiful, and disgusting. All this needs to be recorded in our time in history now, so, America never makes this mistake again.
Well, I'm glad somebody finally brought it up. It is appropriate that someone should.
However, I'm glad it will be tabled.
Impeaching him now, just makes it so that Bush can pardon him.
I WANT TO SEE THAT F'CKER IN PRISON. So I have to be patient, dang it. I would rather have justice in time, than a hasty travesty.
Still those above are right, it is important to get this on the record now. I also agree, that Dennis seemed about to fall asleep. WTF?! This IS his whole campaign! Shouldn't he have practiced reading it or had some coffee or something?
Yeesh.
"Does anyone think that the illegal eavesdropping that has been going on since before 9/11 could have netted some dirt on Pelosi and Hoyer,and a lot more Dems?That could be the reason Impeachment is off the table."
Absolutely!
I don’t think the country could take Rudy’s next 2 Supreme Court picks, I will take Hillary’s any day.
Agreed. If it's a choice between Hillary and Rudy, I'll take Hillary.
Fortunately, the field is more open than that.
I WANT TO SEE THAT F’CKER IN PRISON.
And what makes you think Bush will not issue a blanket pardon for everyone in the administration the night before he leaves?
Bush can pardon anyone at any time.
"84 Indigowatcher Says: I agree that even if Cheney isn’t impeached this is a good thing that Kucinich did. We should make a list of all the Dems that betray us on this one and GO AFTER THEIR JOBS! Hold special elections to remove these goons one by one, then bring them to trial for treason."
I think just getting them out of office would be enough.
"83 trevjr Says:
I don’t think the country could take Rudy’s next 2 Supreme Court picks, I will take Hillary’s any day."
70% of the people in the country agree with Kucinich but refuse to vote for him because he can't win. This is not democracy folks. This is "Mediaocracy." Wake up and vote your conscience!
AWESOME!!! OUR MAN WITH PRESIDENTIAL TIMBER....T I M B E R
Not quite gone yet..
The most important piece here - more so than the pardon problem - is the precedent that is being set. This has to be remedied before the next president takes the oath (if that actually happens...) What makes you think that the next president is going to hand over all the powers that Bush/Cheney has grabbed? What makes you think this imbalance of the branches of government won't continue and expand further? There is a real danger here.
Watch Bill Moyers Journal interview with John Nichols and Bruce Fein (Constitutional scholar). This was the BEST argument I have heard on this yet for the imperative need for IMPEACHMENT for Bush AND Cheney. There is also a transcript.
This is about restoring the integrity to our Constitution, our laws, and the balance of government. It would also go a LONG ways towards restoring faith in our form of government and our laws with the American people.
Good night.
Chris -
> ... impeach Hoyer? ...
I'm with you on that. As soon as we impeach Cheney, we should then go after Bush and Hoyer.
In other news today...
"A school superintendent’s decision to suspend, and perhaps expel, about two dozen students who took part in a protest against the Iraq war at a suburban high school..."
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/07/us/07protest.html?ref=us
"an eighth-grader in Mascoutah, Ill., finished a second after-school detention today. That was her punishment for hugging friends..."
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/11/teen-gets-deten.html
Don't forget to stop by the recruiting booth on your way to Algebra to sign up for the Iraq War!
If Dennis is speaking for 70% of the country, why isn't he higher in the polls? The media is telling you who you will vote for. The same media that covered up all the bush and cheney lies and misdeeds and fed you the war rhetoric. To all who are saying they won't vote for Dennis "because he can't win" you are letting them lead you over the cliff again. Don't fall for it!!!! Do you NEED the media to tell you who to vote for or can you think for yourself?
I keep hearing the crap about the dems not doing this or that because of the election or because it will make them look weak. They are letting more troops and Iraqi cilivilians die while they wait it out. They are cowards. Dennis Kucinich is running for President of the United States and he is NOT afraid to speak the truth. Which would you prefer?
Just when I was really missing the likes of Paul Wellstone, in comes Dennis K to save the day. Paul Wellstone would not have put up with all the crap that these spineless, gutless dems in congress have put up with so far. As the song asks: Where have all the good men gone?
The Washington Post has a thoroughly dismissive article on this.
What's with all this defeatist chickenshit? It's better to at least make an effort to get rid of Cheney and Bush that it is to whimper and cower in fear that they might call you a bad name. I've got news for for you "but we don't have the voooooootes" bedwetters: The Republitards are going to call you pussies and traitors anyway. So you might as well at least try to stick it to them -especially when it's the right thing to do. Silence equals consent. Every member of the House who does not vote to impeach has endorsed the crimes of the Cheney-Bush Junta. Failure to impeach will be presented by the Republitards (and construed by the average person) as proof that the Democrats approved of torture, illegal wiretapping and all the other crimes. After all, if the Junta really did commit crimes and atrocities, why didn't the Democrats (majorities in both houses) even TRY to stop them? It's put up or shut up time.
Most importantly of all, I think our elected officials need to be put on the record: Do you support the despotic acts of Cheney and Bush, or do you want to remove these tyrants from office?
Text of resolution on Thomas: H. RES. 333 -- Impeaching Richard B. Cheney, Vice President of the United States, for high crimes and misdemeanors.
Regarding the question of privilege used by kucinich. House rules say: "If the question [of privilege] is raised by any other Member, consideration of it is deferred until a time and place within the next two legislative days that the Speaker designates in the legislative schedule. When that time arrives, the Speaker then decides whether the resolution raises a valid question of privilege."
Should we expect a statement from Pelosi within 2 days?
I keep hearing the crap about the dems not doing this or that because of the election or because it will make them look weak.
Yeah, as opposed to the way they look now, right? This is actually the most vile of the DNC talking points: "Oh, we can't do anything so long as the Republicans have any power."
Which means they need one-party rule to get anything done, right? Hmmm...how does that usually end up working out?
Dennis Kucinich is running for President of the United States and he is NOT afraid to speak the truth. Which would you prefer?
Asked another way, if you're unwilling to vote for a candidate who speaks the truth, on what basis do you place any trust in the candidate you DO vote for?
"Failure to impeach will be presented by the Republitards (and construed by the average person) as proof that the Democrats approved of torture, illegal wiretapping and all the other crimes."
Call me average, i am indeed construing all over the fucking place!
GOD BLESS DENNIS KUCINICH!!
At least he did something.
Congressman Kucinich is a representative that we can only hope our representative could be. Ohio is lucky and should be honored to have him represent them. He stood up for the AMERICAN people the law abiding people who believe and respect our CONSTITUTION.
This is an AMERICAN issue not a political party issue. For those who have forgotten to see the distiguishable differences should look carefully what the ramifications would be not just for today but for the future EXPANDED power and open potential ABUSES of the executive branch AND the diminishing effects of our civil liberties. You can choose your destiny today or you can leave it up to others. (others meaning, the media; and elected officials that will decide what is best for you even if it means sacrificing you or your children to support their personal agenda) That my fellow AMERICANS is the free will that you will be giving up.
It is evident today that the Democrats and political manuevering is far more important than YOUR CALL as a PEOPLE to bring law and order back to our way of governance.
"Congressman Kucinich is a representative that we can only hope our representative could be. Ohio is lucky and should be honored to have him represent them. He stood up for the AMERICAN people the law abiding people who believe and respect our CONSTITUTION."
I believe he should be representing us all, in the White House. I also firmly believe he is electable.
Did anyone else notice that at Dennis' start people were talking in the background, kinda ignoring him? Then when they started to get a whif of just how serious his charges were there was not only dead silence but the people who had been standing behind him scurried in apparent terror to be associated with him and his motion well out of camera range. Truly sad, we really do not have any representative government anymore. The millionaires from both parties are beholden to their corporate and elite skull & crossbones college frat buddies and don't give a damn about the nation. Both parties need to be tanked the way of the Whigs and we need new representative government. Cripes look at Italy, they even have porn stars in government, ironically enough at least they're honest...
Finally - a hero.
Ian@106
WE can stand behind Kucinich, at the polls!
As far as porn stars in our government goes, we have not yet seen the next Republican scandal.
You go DK!
Hang 'em high
JasonS @ 90:
I don't think he can pardon someone that has not been accused of a crime yet. It isn't some sort of superpower. Only if charges are filed can Cheney be pardoned of those charges. At least that's how I understand it.
So I'm happy that they will wait to file criminal charges (impeachment... whatever. He's a criminal, I don't want him to retire, I want him to be brought to justice) until the day Bush steps down.
That will be a happy day -- Democratic president, and Cheney taken in to custody.
"Powered by WordPress"
"Power" is not the word i would use...
I don’t think he can pardon someone that has not been accused of a crime yet. It isn’t some sort of superpower. Only if charges are filed can Cheney be pardoned of those charges.
Remind me of the charges that were filed against Richard Nixon?
I’m happy that they will wait to file criminal charges (impeachment… whatever.)
Impeachment is not a criminal conviction. It's removal from office.
McLir @ 98:
No surprise, there.
To quote Chris Matthews:
"Well, The Washington Post is not the liberal newspaper it was, Congressman, let me tell you. I have been reading it for years and it is a neocon newspaper"
Once again, that was coming from Chris Matthews
JasonS @ 113:
I know. That's why I said I could care less about it. What early retirement for Dick? Who cares? Just a formality for boyscouts like Kucinich (bless his heart, though).
It is the crimes I'm interested in, and those will be filed in court. He will be indicted, soon after Bush steps down and loses the power of the pardon.
The corporate media silence on this matter should be shocking to all citizens.
The next time anybody wants to talk about conspiracy theories, that person need only point to corporate media as proof that big corporations bury the real news and promote bullshit/propaganda from one end of the USA to the other.
WHAT the hell was wrong with Robert Redford on the Larry King show promoting his new political thriller . He acted as if somebody took a pair of scissors and neutered him . First he was asked about The Medal of Freedom Medal or medal for jumping over a cliff or something and how he got along with bush when he got the medal and the intellectual giant Larry King asked in his gravelly voice " was he nice to you " good gawd , no he spit on him for being a Che loving lefty pinko . Redford replied , " art should be above politics " strange because for the obvious reason, there is a lot of political art , from talented people thatcombine both issues and politics . POLITICAL ART REDFORD, GET IT ? i don't expect him turn down the medal which would have been a braver and more noble thing to do, but don't cop out with a lame excuse .
However that wasn't the only strange thing, when King asked did Al Gore deserve the Noble prize he tighten up , mumble " he deserved a lot of credit " but "didn't know what the criteria was " are you fukn kidding me . He refused to answer . Gutless wonder and looks like we don't need to look for Robert Redford for political courage or leadership , he's AWOL .
The first thing that came to mind was a quote from George Orwell , " In the times of deceit , telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act "
JasonS @ 112:
Was that ever tested in court? Is the word "blanket" in the constitution? What does blanket mean? Common sense says the word "pardon" can only apply to a charge or conviction.
"Pre-pardon of unspecified nature" just doesn't make any sense. I really don't think it exists.
Dick is so dirty, no matter what Bush says on the pardon (which if he issues it will be a sort of victory in itself) there will always be SOMETHING outside of the specific language of the pardon that we will get him on.
If he has to hang for tax evasion or mail fraud, so be it.
Prepare for the onslaught of UFO jokes, his further ridicule and marginalization in the MSM, and the general kowtowing to corporate war profiteering powers. And the hit men...
F Pelosi.
New Jersey hates terminally ill people. Oil is now $98.
He will be indicted, soon after Bush steps down and loses the power of the pardon.
No, he really won't. Bush can pre-emptively pardon him the way Ford pardoned Nixon. No charges need be filed for a pardon.
But suppose you are right. To whom will you turn to take on the case?
What will stop the Republicans from arguing (effectively, I might add) that the prosecution is just a cheap political stunt? That the Democrats didn't have the honor to argue their case on the House floor and are now hiding behind their lackeys in the justice department?
And what will stop President Hillary from ordering the AG to drop all investigations, lest the Democrats be hurt in the next election?
“Pre-pardon of unspecified nature” just doesn’t make any sense. I really don’t think it exists.
What crime had Richard Nixion been indicted for or convicted of?
I fall victim to it myself a lot, but pessimism isn't going to win our country back. It's optimism. When you get pessimistic you better turn that into I'm mad as hell and not going to take it anymore strength. If you're not outraged your not paying attention. JasonS spoke a lot of wisdom at the beginning of this blog. Now is not the time to give up and cry or sink into hopelessness. It's time to act and to do the right thing. And to fight with hope, and courage. Like Dennis Kucinich did. Regardless of the outcome. It's the way you fight.
From Article II, Section 2 of the US Constitution:
"The President...shall have power to Grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offenses against the United States."
Says nothing about formal charges, convictions, appeals or any other qualifications. Just "pardons for offenses" (excluding impeachment.)
Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon for any and all crimes committed in the furtherance of the Watergate scandal.
Nixon had not been convicted or even impeached by Congress. He had been charged with no crime. He had not stood trial nor been convicted.
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 115:
Totally. I also want to see Rove's "comeback" in an orange jump suit. We can't forget that *sshole.
Hopefully, the staffers haven't incinerated all the hard-drives.
Dick is a Killer
Is there some sort of congressional equivalent of "double jeapordy" when it comes to impeachment? If the Dems try to impeach Cheney and fail, are they no longer able to attempt to impeach him again?
I really can't understand why this played out the way it did. I believed that the reason stated for why Pelosi didn't try to impeach Bush/Cheney was because they "didn't have the votes." Yet, here the republicans were actually willing to move it to debate.
There must be something I'm missing here, because it appears as though the Democratic leadership has completely failed us today.
Gotta admire the man's cojones.
JasonS @ 122:
Well, I'm not a lawyer. But I'll believe that a president can just say, "I absolve you of all sins, my son" like some sort of divine king when I see the Supreme Court agree. A "pardon" that does not address a crime, is no "pardon". It is about time the exact limits of that are defined, in my view.
Or if this has already happened, please link.
Who cares? The Republicans argue everything is a cheap political stunt. Pass a bill, advocate for your constituency "OUTRAGE, cheap political stunt, blah blah boogie blah!!11 OUTRAGE!" So what? We needn't live our lives by the obnoxious noises of the insane.
Again, why care? The republicans have shown the country that they are completely morally bankrupt, and will cry wolf as often as they have breath in their bodies. So let them -- they will anyway!
I'm surprised ANYONE hasn't learned that lesson yet. The republicans WILL cheat, steal, throw dirt in your face, rig the race -- NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO. You really can't see that? So just do the right thing anyway. The people are ready for that.
Of all the Democrats, Hillary might attempt that, yes. So let her. Congress must still yield to their constituency, and will have even more power in 2008 to bring to whomever is in office (Edwards, hopefully). Look how Feinstein is suffering already for similar thinking.
In any case, if he accepts the pardon, he is definitively admitting guilt (according to legal types). If he is guilty but pardoned, then worse case scenario he spends the rest of his life in a senate chamber testifying to the crimes he has admitted guilt to. HE may somehow be then immune, but if he does not cooperate with Congress to uncover the details and other guilty parties, he will be held in contempt and jailed anyway.
Again, no lawyer here. But IF somehow all of that fails (which I really doubt) the power of the Presidential pardon ONLY extends to federal law. Not State law. Again Dick as GOT to be so dirty there must be many state laws that would apply.
Yes, and again that was NEVER TESTED to my knowledge. I don't see anything in there about a "blanket" either. This time, should that happen, it will be. Ultimately there are limits to executive power defined by the reason of humankind in the constitution. Let's see what the Supreme Court has to say about it.
This court has already surprised all of us by slamming presidential overreach at least once already.
Feel free to correct me.
The biggest problem with the Democratic Leadership's approach to "moving on" with these criminals is that they are leaving the door open for them to return after the next Democratic government is ousted.... and that won't be very long. Hold on to your wallets because any financial recovery you might achieve in the next decade will be destroyed in the following one.
Oh yes... by then you will be too old to make up for that loss again.
welcome to the crooked truth... America is a lie.
Every minute spent on impeachment is not only a minute spent on the single most important issue this country has faced, it is also a minute not used to further the Bush agenda.
Impeach Bush/Cheney; primary Pelosi.
Dennis the menace -- hell yeah!
Tucker is such a schmuck.
> Impeachment is not a criminal conviction.
It's only an indictment. The Senate has to convict to be able to remove him from office.
> It’s removal from office.
Also, I don't think it's required to removed the convicted impeached from office. I think the minimum requirement is to censure the convicted impeached.
Democrat:
Perhaps we should do something?
Really tough democrat:
Too weak! I say we write a stern letter!
Democrat:
Yes, if enough people approve.
Really tough democrat:
We are elected by the people!
Democrat:
Are you suggesting we create laws not previously approved by the executive?
Really tough democrat:
That would be extreme. We should get approval of everyone.
Democrat:
Approval of everyone in the whole world?
Really tough democrat:
How about we get approval from other people like us AND the President.
Democrat:
Sounds good. See you at your reelection fund raiser!
The brave and honorable Mr. Kucinich reminded me today of the high-minded Jimmy Stewart in "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington": a solitary figure who isn't afraid to speak truth to power and to stand on unvarnished principle. The hell with the rest of that fetid swamp known as Washington, and the hell with Hoyer and Pelosi.
And ... thank you, Dennis.
They should have let it go through. Imagine the press coverage of this man with a 9% approval rating getting ripped from one end to the other for lying about an unpopular war.
I think dems missed the boat on this one. Big surprise!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=kbGVIdA3dx0
swarmofkillermonkeys Sez:
A “pardon” that does not address a crime, is no “pardon”. It is about time the exact limits of that are defined, in my view.
Or if this has already happened, please link.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_the_United_States_of_Ameri...
The president does not vacate criminal charges, he pardons actions...about which he has to be specific. But you do not, do not, absolutely do not have to wait for any jurisdiction to file a charge.
No one challenged the pardon of Richard Nixon, but no one believes it would have been overturned.
But supposing it could be overturneed, what makes you think the Democrats will suddenly rise up and chase Cheney et al. all the way to the Supreme Court? Of course the (Roberts) Supreme Court will uphold Bush's pardons. They'll do the same calculus they're doing now: it's a waste of time, don't have the votes, no need to try.
What you're right about, however, is that a pardon voids the fifth amendment. So, if it's hearings you want...if it's the truth you seek...then you want Cheney pardoned. You'll never hear anything like truth so long as any threat of indictment hangs over him.
I just find it so amusing that the majority of the Dems voted to table the impeachment resolution and the majority of Republicans voted against tabling it, then after the tabling (killing) motion failed, the Dems voted to send it off the floor and to a Committee where it will be held (killed). The Republicans voted to keep the impeachment alive. The Democrats voted to make it go away.
Too funny!
Of course DK is the type guy to have.
Ever from his time as Mayor of Clevo.
But do I read this right?
The GOP said go while the Dems pluked the vote?
Christ what a pile of crap.
Is Pelosi the dumbest Speaker ever?
Let's RECALL Feinstein!
Beau Jangles @ 143:
And replace her with Arnold?
Oh, to finally hear the truth spoken to the rotten and powerful House of Representatives.
Will it even make the evening news?
Will it be discussed two days from now?
So, there's a dangerous idea here and it's common among people who have submitted to abuse and betrayal: this idea that someday soon, when the tide is turned and the power game is in our favor, THEN we'll have our revenge...THEN will we crush the bastards who have done this to us!...THEN will we have justice!
Enough.
It is very, very unlikely that anyone above an "assistant to the assistant" level will see any formal charges or prison time and if that is the only thing that will satisfy you, I urge you to take a step back and look at what you are sacrificing in your battle against this windmill.
By abdicating our responsibilities to speak the truth NOW, we are destroying the constitution in order to save it.
Go Kuncinich!
Stanley Rosenthal @ 135:
Ok, so first you impeach; then you convict; then (if it's not too bad) you censure, or (if it's pretty bad) you remove from office, or (if it's absolutely horrendous):
Stanley Rosenthal @ 139:
We need to all email a copy of this to the fancy Miss. Nancy and just flood her email box
He is so right to do this if even for the purpose of educating the others whom act as if they don't understand the constitution.
It is not now and nor has it ever been an option for them to pick and choose, weather they want to do it or not and it just adds a stain to all of them whom shy away from this duty.
I am shame of them for not supporting this bill, even if they can't get support from the republicans whom are hell bent on embarrassing them.
I am a fighter from way back and I don't understand these people I put my trust and faith in to stand up for the constitution and all of the federal laws they swore to uphold.
They are just liars and that makes me sick to think I got behind these people. They figure we are backed up against the wall and have to support them at any cost and they are somewhat right as the lessor of evils, but they are wrong when they think this shit will be forgotten as we are going to pick their asses off, one by one until we get good honest people, who will stand up for the constitution and take their oath of office serious.
It is good that Congressman Kuccinich is standing up for this country, but sad that he will most likely be standing with very few that have the guts.
At this point, my fav. is still Kucinich. But I still haven't ruled out Dodd or Edwards. I would be most happy if any of those 3 we're to be the next President.
Comments are closed on this entry