60 Minutes: Reverend Canon White says: The situation is clearly worse in Iraq now for Christians
By Logan Murphy Saturday Dec 01, 2007 9:25pm
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Scott Pelley's disturbing report on 60 Minutes shows just one angle of the carnage that continues in Iraq despite the surge -- the cleansing of Iraqi Christians. Pelley interviews Andrew White, a minister who suffers from Multiple Sclerosis and runs one of the few remaining Christian churches left in the country. Transcript:
The situation now is clearly worse” than under Saddam, White replied.
"There’s no comparison between Iraq now and then," he told Pelley. "Things are the most difficult they have ever been for Christians. Probably ever in history. They’ve never known it like now."
"Wait a minute, Christians have been here for 2,000 years," Pelley remarked.
"Yes," White said.
"And it’s now the worst it has ever been," Pelley replied.
White is forced to hold his services underground (you won't see many adult males as they have all been killed or driven from the country) and risks his life every day to help his parishioners and says life for Iraqi Christians is infinitely worse now than under Saddam. Many Christians who are lucky enough to make it out of the country alive end up in Syrian ghettos, still fearing for their lives and with little hope for the future.
The Bush administration and our liberal media tell us the surge in Iraq is working, but the world knows that is a lie. The surge may be helping with security in some parts of the country, but it has come with immeasurable costs to the people of Iraq in the form of ethnic cleansing and a humanitarian crisis for many millions of people, that should anger and sicken us all. Of course, the plight of Iraqi Christians are just part of this appalling tragedy. Iraqis of all faiths are still being slaughtered and driven from their homes and country daily, by a civil war we allowed to happen and continues to rage on, uninterrupted by the surge.
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!so sad!
Well, finally, the media is covering the story. I started reading on the Christian blogs over 6 months ago.
What Saddam protected George W. Bush could not.
Our Dear Leader inaction.
-GSD
I wonder how the Jews there are making out.
barbara @ 2:
Ditto. I feel ashamed for actions I couldn't prevent, no matter how hard I tried, & dammit, I tried hard. Your actions supposedly on behalf of us all damn you, BushCo, there's no mistaking it...
The BA won't let religion or human suffering of any kind get in the way of its profit margins. They'll kill babies to get their pay.
Man, these are some kind of brave people. I hope their courageous appearance on 60 Minutes doesn't get more of them killed.
Many thanx George W. Bush [asshole of the ages]
On top of every other outrage the Bush gang have perpetrated, failure to provide security in an occupied country is called a WAR CRIME.
These guys don't care about people. They are totally committed to corporate profit and greed. Take a look at Michael Moore's short history of our "involvement" in other countries. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UVetMKcWhA Bush and these guys don't care about religion any more than how they can use it to control people and get their way through the use of it. I'm sick of this crap. I hope more people will start speaking freely, including myself, about the obvious crimes and criminal nature of these people in control of our government. It would be cool if we could rid our government of these A-holes. Many crimes have been committed. Osama is not being pursued. Iraqi oil is being pursued. Our military bases and embassy there make it obvious to those willing to admit it. Our Press has failed us. Let's do what we can do to turn this awful tide. Peace.
Christians in America need to follow the example of fellow theologian Dr. David Ray Griffin and start telling the truth about our very Un-Christian Gov't and Actions. Damn it. The suffering.
Bookem Danno @ 8:
Not to mention that unprovoked invasion and occupation of another country on a gaggle of lying pretexts is considered in 'BAD TASTE'.
Let's call a spade a spade.
I have been watching this from Europe for years and then watching it from the perspective of the news here in the United States.
Anyone here ever heard of Bethlehem?
Anyone here remember the Palestians who holed up in the main church in Bethlehem while under the Israeli gun? Probably not because that was on Euro television.
Everyone calls it the Holy Land but everyone misses the point that this includes CHRISTIANS.
I have always found it beyond shocking that any mentioning of the Holy Land or Iraqi, Lebanese or Syrian Christians just gets the boot when it comes to reporting the news.
Bullshit.
Could it be that the reason christians in Iraq are having a 'bad time' is because the nation they live in has been invaded, assaulted, and is being destroyed, and it's native citizens massacred, by a 'Christian Nation', based on pretexts of lies, and without provocation?
They should consider converting to reality, or rationality.
re the question about iraqui jews above-they were a large community until the establishment of israel caused an upsurge of antisemitism and almost all of them fled to israel-minus their belongings and wealth. israel has assimilated almost all the jews who were driven out of arab lands-unlike the palestinians who have not been granted citizenship in arab lands where they have resided for sixty years,
Bush, that avowed Christian has never stood up for Christianity in the middle east where it's home remains.
Why is that?
The fact that 'Minister' White is alive, and able to do a 60 Minute show, is testimony that the Iraq society is much more civilized, and compassionate, than the so-called 'christian' nation that attacked them.
Preacher Boob @ 15:
Not.
The Christian communities all over the world are routinely ignored. We say we are Christians but we do not behave in that manner by any stretch of the means.
Pat Robertson spends all day, every day recruiting money from his viewers to help Russian Jews trying to immigrate to Israel.
Why is that?
Imagine what would happen to, and in, US Muslim mosques, if the Muslims were somehow able to invade, attack, and dominate the US as the US is doing in Iraq.
Talk about 'Blood on the Rugs'! The CrazyChristianFundamentalistEvangelicalBornAgainBoobRapturistZionists would finally be able to let loose their pent-up, 'god'-given, 'Good Book'-authorized, blood-lust, in honor of 'The Prince of Peace', their 'savior'.
They'd have contests to see who could collect the most Muslim Ears, or Scalps, those 'devout' christians would.
E.T. @ 16:
What's the significance of the 'Not'?
You have to decide what is more important, these people and their religion or the oil. I think we all know the answer to that one.
Preacher Boob @ 17:
I see what you are saying but in that case let's just chuck the entire farce of being a Christian nation in the first place.
It wasn't true then and it most certainly isn't true now. God help the real believers because they are being sold down the river in ghastly amounts of blood. And they mail in money to do so.
It's a crime against humanity which certainly was never the intention of Jesus Christ or any of those who beleive and want to practice The Good Book.
From GSD: "What Saddam protected George W. Bush could not."
Or would not. This is grist for the Fundy mill. They can be counted on to make the most of this and turn it into a call for another Crusade. After all, persecution of Christians by Muslims in the Holy Land was the excuse for the First Crusade.
The pajamas medians, Clear Channelites and Foxies claim to be Christians but they are waving the pom poms for the persecution they have aided against people of their faith
Preacher Boob,
Apologies. I misread your comment.
E.T. @ 14:
The cost benefit study they did on them did not turn out with a positive cash flow.
Let's see, according to this summary, what's happening to Iraq now is much worse than what happened under Saddam. And what's happening in the US now is much worse than what was happening when Saddam was alive.
Hmmm. A rational, logical conclusion would be that what Bush has done has resulted in a much worse situation than what Saddam did.
Therefore, Bush is much worse, much more 'Evil' than Saddam'.
That's Bush's legacy, and should be engraved on his tombstone. (Or a plain wooden plaque, whatever's customary for the grave of an executed Impeachee)
In essence, Bush is responsible for murdered Christians.
Since Bush isn't going to heaven ... he might as well be Excommunicated!
bmw 528 @ 24:
Sadly...RIGHT ON.
Can Americans PLEASE STOP LOOKING SO FUCKING STUPID to the rest of the world?
Everything in the name of Christianity is so easily dissected, I cringe. And so should every citizen.
Anyone who is well traveled just dies a thousand deaths at this kind of totally obvious propaganda.
True acclaimed Christians would just shrink in shame..or one would hope.
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the Iriaqi Christian faction had control of any oil. Oh, they don't. I see. So who gives a fuck?
See how things really work now?
ET. there are many in this country that are neither stupid or naive. The bush adminstration stole two elections, and has violated many laws in this country, including wiretapping all citizens without warrents.
They control the media because a few corporations run the "news" devisions.
we are now no different than Nazi Germany... they had the S..S....we have Homeland Security.....
only 30 percent of the population support Bush..the rest of us are truly scared about it, and it is easy to be intimidated....
So no 70 percent are not stupid....
E.T. @ 28:
Hey E.T. to stop looking stupid they would have to stop being stupid. That's difficult when the leader of the country believes the world is 4000 years old and that a grey bearded man in the sky tells him to kill hundreds of thousands of people. This is one really fucked up place dude.
But before I get all down on how moronic, lazy and gullible the average American is, why don't we look at Christianity in Europe for the last 2000 years. Hmmmm.. not a very pretty picture, was it? Europeans kind of fucked over the entire world and spread their own version of insanity to the world. Made people kneel down in front of an idol. Stole all their wealth, raped the women, killed the men, enslaved the children. And that's just what they did outside of Europe. We could go on for days about the burning, the whipping, the Iron Maidens, the forced confessions and then the obligatory execution by some drunk guy with an ax.
I'm not sure what European country you came from, but I'm quite sure it has a history soaked in blood and torture and ignorant subjugation to the state form of Christianity. You might think Americans would have learned from the thousands of years of European mistakes, but some things you have to learn the hard way.
Oh, BTW, I don't know what true acclaimed Christians you are talking about, but in my travels around this globe, real Christians are blood thirsty war mongers just like all the other humans regardless of religion.
Mission accomplished!
Neither side of the "Muslim/Christian" football game is going to be happy until everything is burned down over some deprecated, unevolved superstitions.
Looking forward to how the hate machine's gonna spin this...
Worst president in 2000 years?
susan g @ 13:
Eastern Jews, also known as, Mizrahi Jews, who immigrated from Arab countries and into Israel after 1948 were treated like scum by European Jews. They lived in tents, they were sprayed for lice when they got off the airplane and they spent the rest of their lives being treating like crap by the European Jews who immigrated to Israel.
Not much has changed in the last 60 or so years. When it comes to discrimination it's a live and well in Israel. Don't kid yourself and don't come lying to people on here thinking no one's up to snuff on what's really going on. The Mizrahi Jews are still a tier lower than Ashkenazi (European) Jews. The Mizrahi Jews have always been considered and still are just good enough for physical work and nothing more. I'd like to know if a mother from Northern Tel Aviv (Ashkenazi Jews) would let her daughter marry an Iraqi Jew from Petach Tikva. Assimilated? Yeah, sure. Next!
As for the Palestinians in Arab countries, why should these Arab countries give them citizenship? Your comparison is quiet ridiculous. Israel was marketed to Jews worldwide as a haven for Jewish people. Last time I checked the Arab countries didn't exactly establish themselves just so that they can absorb thousands of Palestinians refugees fleeing their homes in Palestine (later to be called Israel). And why should these Arab countries give them citizenship? They were citizens of Palestine, some still have passports that bear the name "Palestine" from way back before 1948. These people remain refugees because the Arab countries want Israel to take them back and give them back their homes. If they were granted citizenship they'll be sure to stay in whatever host country they're in.
Uberlame @ 32:
As a group Americans aren't blowing people up in the name of Jesus.
susan g @ 13:
What a load of crap. Sure Israel will assimilate you a citizen ONLY if you are jewish. Oh how generous of Israel. Unfortunately for Palestinians in the occupied territories, they were never given the option to get any citizenship, whether it's an Israeli citizenship or a Palestinian citizenship... but I thought Israel was so generous with their citizenship? BTW, Jordan has given citizenship to Palestinians, and the Queen of Jordan is Palestinian.
CD @ 35:
Bullshit! Have you listened to Hagee lately? And there are a couple of hundred thousand dead Iraqis who would like to dispute you, if they could.
JustSickOfIt @ 31:
You nailed it! Plus, in my experience, the humans without religion exhibit the most humanity.
is anyone happy that the surge was not a complete failure?
for the longest time i've read on this site over and over again about how the surge just was not working and now it appears it "did work" (rather, "didn't fail") and now people here are saying oh it was never [i]about[/i] the surge.
i mean, remember when bush invaded iraq because of wmds and then later said oh it was never about the wmds?
some people accuse the bushco of not caring at all for the iraqi people then suggest that every american troop should be withdrawn by tomorrow, as if that wouldn't result in turmoil for iraqis.
ultimately i would like to think everyone wants the best for iraq, but has different views of accomplishing it. there are lots of reasons to suspect the neocons are not in this camp, but i'm suspecting the left wing nuts are also more concerned with other things.
I am an Athiest. I firmly believe, however that people have a right to belive in God and follow whatever path they feel is right to do so. I am as oppossed to religious persecution as i am to political, racial and sexual persecution. The Priest in this story is not only a man of Faith, but appears to be a man of good sense and courage. He has my respect.
As for us, the United States of America, well, there really is no other way to say it. We suck!
Barrett D @ 39:
You pretend that the US is not responsible for this. It is. I don't get you. You seem to think the US is somehow protecting the Christians and the Muslims. They are not. What are you trying to say, anyway?
E.T. @ 11:
excuse me....but when have christians ever been persecuted by the israeli government or people?
what the fuck are you talking about??
why dont you head over to some wingnut site so you can rant and rave about the war on xmas
Barrett D says...is anyone happy that the surge was not a complete failure?
Sorry, but it is a failure. The surge was to give the Iraqi government time to get their shit together and sign that oil law. Didn't happen. Of course maybe it didn't happen because the dipshit in the WH refuses to put timelines on anything.
"you won’t see many adult males as they have all been killed or driven from the country"
4 Million displaced. Over 1 million dead. Gee, I wonder why the death toll is down.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 42:
uncle joe mccarthy i think you misunderstood his comment.
xoites defends Constitution @ 41:
You pretend that the US is not responsible for this. It is. I don't get you. You seem to think the US is somehow protecting the Christians and the Muslims. They are not. What are you trying to say, anyway?
i'm not pretending that. bush is very responsible. my post wasn't really directly related to this story. its just that there are indeed many problem in iraq that wouldn't be if bush didn't invade. but there are people here who would rather blame bush than actually help the iraqi people in their situation right now. i think that if iraq is indeed winnable, it ought to be from the ideas of center left america. i would like to see iraq a success but it would validate bush. obama and clinton were right to say that the troops would not be coming home as soon as they were prez. if indeed a peaceful iraq is possible, the left should be focusing on creating the ideas to do so, rather than focusing on bush's mistakes.
Preacher Boob @ 37:
Who's Hagee?
Barrett D @ 45:
i'm not pretending that. bush is very responsible. my post wasn't really directly related to this story. its just that there are indeed many problem in iraq that wouldn't be if bush didn't invade. but there are people here who would rather blame bush than actually help the iraqi people in their situation right now. i think that if iraq is indeed winnable, it ought to be from the ideas of center left america. i would like to see iraq a success but it would validate bush. obama and clinton were right to say that the troops would not be coming home as soon as they were prez. if indeed a peaceful iraq is possible, the left should be focusing on creating the ideas to do so, rather than focusing on bush's mistakes.
My problem with your opinion is the phrase, "...iraq is indeed winnable..."
Winning countries is for children playing Risk.
Barrett D @ 45:
i'm not pretending that. bush is very responsible. my post wasn't really directly related to this story. its just that there are indeed many problem in iraq that wouldn't be if bush didn't invade. but there are people here who would rather blame bush than actually help the iraqi people in their situation right now. i think that if iraq is indeed winnable, it ought to be from the ideas of center left america. i would like to see iraq a success but it would validate bush. obama and clinton were right to say that the troops would not be coming home as soon as they were prez. if indeed a peaceful iraq is possible, the left should be focusing on creating the ideas to do so, rather than focusing on bush's mistakes.
You think that our military is over there to make Iraq peaceful? We are there for business deals and oil. Do you understand that a million people have died for lies? Lies that were put out there so we could rape and pillage? We are staying not to insure "peace" but to insure our business investments. You then say, "if Iraq is winnable". Seriously? Define what it means to win an occupation.
Um. I don't see how this group of people being attacked, forced into hiding, driven away, and killed is any different or worse than the other million folks it happened to. Is the fact that they are Christians and (I assume) you are as well the reason why their lives (as I gather from the comments) are somehow worth more than others?
Tatarize @ 49:
There lives are not worth more than others.
With some luck though seeing this man interviewed will soften the hearts of some Republicans.
"winnable" - in the sense that iraq can form a stable democracy - one in which it can protect its own citizens. After the fall of saddam iraq needed 'breathing' room to figure out what kind of country it wanted to be. Islamic extremists didn't allow that to happen. now, if the surge is providing that little bit of breathing room then maybe iraq is 'winnable'. so really, now is the time for the left to be putting out their ideas for political reconciliation - since the republicans probably have no idea how to do that. (Eg, like getting other nations in the world to be co-operative). Maybe if the left were to show the world that iraq is not hopeless they could get it turned into a UN venture. Its clearly a US occupation with US interests. So whats your solution? What if it became an international occupation? I want to know, from your perspective how iraq can become a peaceful democracy. i'd rather spend time on such a discourse than tearing down bush at every corner.
Tatarize @ 49:
As stated above ( http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/12/02/60-minutes-reverend-canon-white... ) I am an Athiest. Pardon me if the lives of these people touch me just as dearly as the lives of any others.
What is your point? That people in this country, that people on this thread don't care unless the victims are Christians?
I disagree.
Barrett D @ 51:
You are full of shit. The only outcome that is truly "winnable" is a proxy state in Iraq that supplies the international oil cartel with lots of oil.
McDuff @ 34:
man....if you want to rehash history...get it right
jews of the mideast and spain (and parts of france) are sphardim....
and while it is true that some european jews practiced prejudice against their sephardi brethren, it is also true that they practiced great compassion, as when they airlifted thousands from yemen
and i suggest you look at israel today before you make blanket statements
thanks to intermarriage between sphard and ashkenazi jew, there isnt really any discrimination left
yes, there are still problems in regards to jews from countries like ethiopia, but even that is improving
xoites defends Constitution @ 53:
so wtf do you want? you act as if i'm saying i think bush will be the one to make iraq this awesome place. i haven't implied that at all. i'm saying if you don't want iraq to be a proxy oil state then get your ideas out there so it won't be. certainly i believe you have the best intentions for the iraqi people so instead of tearing down bush why not support ideas to make sure iraq doesn't become a proxy state, but rather its own state?
the surge is indeed working, if the goal of the war was to create another radical islamic state
as bad as sadaam was...he was a secular leader
bush is a retarded leader
20 years from now, when iraq is causing problems for the world, our children will ask us, "why did you elect this man...and why didnt you impeach him when you had the chance?"
and we will hang our heads in shame
navyswan @ 48:
To you Navyswan i can only say thank you for your input. You have a unique perspective i can truly appreciate.
To all i must say good night.
Barrett D @ 55:
If you want Iraq to be its own state then we have to leave, but you are talking about some kind of "winnable" fantasy.
You are not making a whole lot of sense.
xoites defends Constitution @ 44:
if i did, then im sorry
but that news story was indeed greatly reported here in the states
and so too are the degradations of syrian, lebanese and other christians in the moslem world
funny how not one reporter or politician questioned the new iraqi constitution that granted no rights at all to the christian population of iraq
btw, the christians of iraq are nothing like christians in america...there beliefs are much closer to the coptic church...which makes them true christians and not the faux holy rolers we are faced with daily
uncle joe mccarthy @ 56:
20 years? Do you honestly think we are going to be here in 20 years?
As anyone who has actually
kept up with what is going in Iraq knows, the FACTS are that while the 60 Minutes report WAS TRUE MONTHS ago, it is NOT true now.
Neil C. Reinhardt
,,
To all the Christian right-wingers. You know who you are. You support war and death in the name of Jesus and George W. Bush.
How does this story grab you?
uncle joe mccarthy @ 56:
wouldn't it be great though if we didn't have to hang our heads in shame? if america elected competent people to solve iraq? i like to believe in people coming together for the greater good. is it not possible we could do so for iraq? i see most of you just think its utterly hopeless there. great to see just how positive the american left is.
Barrett D @ 63:
Let me tell you something. Your idea of a positive outcome and my idea of a positive outcome are completely different.
You want a compliant Iraq that feeds us oil for our Hummers. I want to see the US sending humanitarian aid to Iraq for two generations as reperations, much as Germany does for all the nations involved in World War II to this day.
xoites defends Constitution @ 58:
but that wouldn't happen. extreme factions in iraq would make it hell for the iraqi people, then indeed you would have an islamic state. with oil and power. american troops leaving would cause a rise of iraqi suffering.
Barrett D @ 65:
Oh dear God! We wouldn't want any Iraqi's to suffer now would we?
xoites defends Constitution @ 64:
no, i want to see religious violence come to end in iraq. i want them to be a free and educated people. if i ever get a car i will get a hybrid unless hydrogen cars are available, for now i take public transit. i'm some right winger here to defend anyone. i'm a leftist canadian who sees a positive iraqi future at the very least possible. and if the right in america does it for the wrong reasons instead of the left for the right reasons you can kiss any chance of free health care or fair minimum wage goodbye.
correction: i'm NOT some right winger *
Barrett D @ 65:
Sorry, i meant:
Oh dear God! We wouldn’t want to see an Iraqi Islamic State now would we?
Barrett D @ 63:
Wake the **** up! Do you think my ideas mean shit to the people in charge of this country? Do you think that Clinton or whoever the Dem front-runner turns out to be is going to be some liberal superhero that comes and saves the Iraqis from the mess our country started? Again, what is "winning?" I would like to know because the current definition of "winning" is that the Iraqi people do what the US says and gives us their oil and lets us build 14 military bases and a vatican-sized embassy in their country. No doubt to be used as a jumping point for further "adventures" in the region. What reason have I been given in the last seven years for me to be positive? I am a realist. The reality is that we have nothing good or redeeming in store for Iraq. In any case, will the "win" there that you speak of bring back the million dead Iraqis? Wake up! We are not leaving Iraq for a long time. They are now our client state and there is no "winning", just pillaging.
"a civil war we allowed to happen"
A civil war BUSHCO FOMENTED by every conceivable means.
I'd like someone to name one thing Bushco left out, other than nukes (and even then, destroying the country's health FOREVER by spreading nuclear materials).
Logan, this is not, was not "allowed to happen." It was CAUSED to happen.
"if the right in america does it for the wrong reasons instead of the left for the right reasons you can kiss any chance of free health care or fair minimum wage goodbye."
WHOOSH!
Right over my head.
You lost me.
i already said what i consider 'winning'. please do not get caught up in semantics
I must sleep
Tomorrow work becons
If i had my druthers
I would be up for "seconds"
GNA!
Barrett D @ 73:
No, you spouted some fairy-tale bullshit. But, you did not define a tangible goal and what it means to win. Don't bother though, it is a moot point. I like how you ignored everything else you said. From the level of your naivety, I would say you are in your early 20's?
xoites defends Constitution @ 72:
i feel that if that iraq becomes a peaceful place under the neocons then they are validated and possibly you would see them winning more elections. and i don't think that would be good. but i do think a peaceful iraq is good. so if the left did it then it would be a good thing. but whatever! the lot of you don't seem to think anyone can do anything. so i give up, you win. bush is a monster, but please don't tell me that he doesn't give a shit about the iraqi people when "you" (anyone) don't either.
*I said*
Barrett,
Watch this clip:
The Shock Doctrine: The evil of “Disaster Capitalism"
Barrett D @ 76:
The solution you are looking for is not going to come from America. If you haven't figured out, the corporations own America. If you care so much, make your government do something. Why are you here whining to people who have absolutely no power to do anything and who do not and will not ever run this country? The UN should step in and push us out of there because we are not there for good.
Barrett D @ 51:
What a pile of horseshit.
Name one thing Bushco could have done FURTHER to dismantle Iraq. The did it all: pogroms, abductions, torture, setting white supremacists, mercenaries, and gang members loose on innocent civilians, failing to guard any of the materiel in the country, hiring completely unqualified cronies to run the country into the ground, failing at the reconstruction (= transfering reconstruction money to the CONSTRUCTION of US airbases), shipping pallets of $100 bills to Iraq and making them disappear into the hands of all sort of criminals (some theres, most ours), disbanding the country's security, allowing all looting, failing to guard the nuclear reserves, breaking every conceivable warcrime,
and committing OUTRIGHT genocide by a hundred other means.
Take your STUPID pile of prevarication from our tired eyes, you liar. If you think you can sell your illusions here, you are more than immoral -- you are delusional.
navyswan @ 78:
navyswan @ 78:
dude, i'm not saying i want iraq to be a capitalist lap dog. i never said that, i don't believe in trickle down economics. i already knew about chile's 9/11. did that happen under liberals? i acknowledge all of these problems. and you're telling me there are no solutions. thats defeatist. please don't fall into that god awful liberal stereotype.
Barrett D @ 76 "i feel that if that iraq becomes a peaceful place under the neocons then they are validated"
GFY. They violated every law of ours they could, smashed the UN Charter, and tried to destroy the Geneva Conventions as well.
Under your logic, if Hitler sufficiently destroyed Czechoslovakia that it became "peaceful," he wouldn't be a mass-murderer.
Guess again. Bushco will NEVER be validated, because GENOCIDE IS NOT LEGAL.
You're like the clown who killed his wife and raped her children, but bought them a lollipop afterward.
yeah i'm that clown alright.
you're like that other clown who watched that clown kille his wife and rape her children but who had the power to stop it but didn't.
i can make ridiculous metaphors too.
time for sleep, gnight all!
Hey Bartlett and All. Iraq is going swimmingly and the surge is working. Just take a look at this new twist in the saga of Iraq:
Third world warriors fight U.S. wars - for dollars a day
Barrett D @ 81:
I am not a "dude" for one. Go **** yourself, two. And three, my husbands in the military. I am a realist.
Bush has made it worse for Christians in America.
Ho what? That's right.
I relish the day this fool leaves office.
That I may draw comfort from my Methodist faith again.
Barrett D @ 83:
I didn't have the power to stop it, but I've put in over 600 hours of street protest, organized and carried forward a two year impeachment effort, and fought the vote-fraud installation (and, in CA, the governator installation) with the rest of my available time.
Go get some rest. The nightmares you support are keeping the rest of us up.
navyswan @ 70 "What reason have I been given in the last seven years for me to be positive? I am a realist. The reality is that we have nothing good or redeeming in store for Iraq."
However, you might want to read "The End of Iraq" by Galbraith. Published in 2006, it describes the loose federation that STILL could be the future of a sovereign Iraq, if we can stop the Pentagon insanity of those forward bases.
What sort of ship is your husband serving on?
navyswan @ 84 "Just take a look at this new twist in the saga of Iraq"
Thanks for the link. That's not "new," however.
Google Strydom and Iraq. Here let me:
http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=Strydom+Iraq&ie=UTF-...
Several good articles, showing that Strydom got blown up in Jan 2003, which sent shockwaves through S. Africa -- since he was a rightwing deathsquad commando, barred by law after his trial and incarceration, from ever serving in arms again. Corpwatch has a good article:
http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=12061
Paul in LA @ 88:
Fortunately, none at the moment. But he is a surface guy, carriers. And my point about Iraq is that as long as we are still there, there is no hope, so I believe we agree.
Paul in LA @ 89:
Thanks for the link. I know that this is not new. That was just the newest story about it. I have been hearing about this for years. That and the slave labor used to build the embassy. Sickening.
G'night. Got to head to bed, it's 4 in the morning...
As a Christian and fellow Methodist may I say to George W. Bush, "Fuck you".
You're the worst president ever.
Lies, death, horror for all the world.
Don't lay that on me or our country.
uncle joe mccarthy @ 42:
Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them
Hey Uncle Joe McCarthy,
Why don't I pull up your old post lauding the bulldozing of Rachel Corrie? Shall we?
Just in case you missed it Joe.
Haaretz: Christians in Jerusalem want Jews to stop spitting on them
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=487412&contrassID=...
navyswan @ 91 "I have been hearing about this for years. That and the slave labor used to build the embassy. Sickening."
Truly. But there is some salve in realizing that they have been as egregious as possible because they intend to destroy our morale.
And it's not working.
Nuremberg showed that this country has the morality to put warcriminals to justice. The sooner we get to it, the better.
They got to really be lovin' that "new freedom" that dubya brought to them.
..and the sheep really believe that shit.
Well Bush did say "Success is not no violence".
That being said, Bush is a ******* idiot.
Barrett D @ 39:
This left wing nut cares about PEOPLE.
The Bush admin doesn't worship Christ, they worship Mammon.
CD @ 46:
If you are serious, Google John Hagee and CUFI, and laugh/cry your ass off. He is an insane, murderous 'christian', who has somehow found a flock of demented sheep, who celebrate the Prince Of Peace by doing what appears to be a modified Holy Roll, waving a Star of David in one hand, and an American flag in another, while pushing Armageddon as a 'Stairway to Heaven', for him and his group of psychos.
JustSickOfIt @ 31:
Don't give up on an entire religious culture because a few hundred million of them are blood thirsty war mongers.
Actually, and sadly, I know a small number of genuine Christians and, may God Bless them. But I also know they are exceptions to the unfortunate rule. The "ideas" of Christ are powerful and moving. Unfortunately, virtually all those who claim to be His followers are either anesthetized to the evil their fellows do, or they are themselves cheerleaders and perpetrators of evil.
Jeanette Rankin -- a name no longer well known but once denounced as anathema from American pulpits, voted against war with Japan on December 8, 1941. She is and should be remembered as a real American and, yes, Christian hero. Look here http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1007-01.htm for more about her and also about Barbara Lee, the lone "no" vote on 9/14/01 when the rest of the House showed their true mettle by giving our idiot President authority to do what he felt was necessary to retaliate for 9/11.
I'm amazed !! Simply Amazed at the fact that so many people are so outraged at the treatment of Christians in an Islamic nation, that was once secular under Saddam but now is blown to pieces by sectarian violence. What the hell did you know before this war started? Did you know about Iraq's history? Did you ever visit Iraq or any of the middle eastern countries? Did you even know where the hell it was on the map?
It only intensifies my sorrow to know that MILLIONS AND MILLIONS of people around the world tried to stop this insane invasion but were persecuted by these very pious Christians who were ignorant and drunk on the notion that THEY were the saviors of these people's "suffering" under Saddam. Or if not the holy Christians of this country and others, the "Patriots" who, in their ignorance, didn't know the difference between one middle eastern nation or the other...and didn't want to know!! These people and the Christians were one and the same!! They all spouted "God and Country" and to this very day, will do the same!! They will be willing and find righteous cause to support anyone who in the name of fighting something they have no clue about called "Islamic fascism" with the same vigor as they did with the invasion of a innocent country and it's precious people. Let the streets run with blood and the air fill with the screams of the dieing...it's for GOD and Country!! Yes! I'm talking about all those of you who, in this country, that call themselves Christian!!
E.T. @ 94:
The Jews can be just as racist and bigoted as any other people, they just think they are perfect, just like the "christian"right...
WOW!!!! How many Christians here in America can stick by their faith like that? Why aren't the Christians here in America are not outrage by this? Our borders should be opened for all in Iraq because of the war that WE and I mean all of us who we all allowed this president to invade that country. Anyone for the war should have to swap places with one refugee.
Re: Reverend Canon
Oh boo fucking hoo. The poor persecuted Christians*
It's worse over there for EVERYBODY you idiot, that's the entire point! Bullets and IED's don't care if you're Christian or Muslim. Starvation and disease don't care what god you follow or don't follow. That's why your deity didn't want you fighting wars in the first freaking place. Or did you forget that whole 'love thy enemy' and 'turn the other cheek' thing when you let Pope Bush invade?
* At least Christians in Iraq can truthfully claim to be persecuted unlike the whiny 'War on Christmas' assholes we have over here.
We've only been saying this for 2 or 3 years now . . . since the ethnic cleansing is complete, the media NOW pays attention?!
I'm not a Christian but I am in awe of Rev. Cannon Andrew White.
He is a brave man.
Fix Noise does the fake American Christians are being persecuted to death and diminishes where and when Christians are actually being persecuted . . .and they have NOT spent much time on this and that we've done this to the Christians in Iraq.
This adds to the charge and the feelings that the White American Evangelical Conservative Christians don't give fig about their brown Christian brothers. That charge is also leveled at them when they have said NOTHING and doing NOTHING about what has been happening to Palestinian Christians by the Israelis.
Many in this country don't even know that Hanan Aswari is a Palestinian Christian not Palestinian Muslim.
Lakeguy @ 105: The Jews can be just as racist and bigoted as any other people, they just think they are perfect, just like the “christian”right…
Nice generalization there, pal.
Glory glory hallelujah! Gory gory hell in Fallujah!
If you're Christian they will shoot'ya. Our troops are marching on.
Excellent reporting. Thanks for posting this story!
I'm glad 60 Minutes finally is bringing this to light now four years hence. It is difficult for me not to be bitter and angry having opposed the war before it started, having lost both my job because of my political activism and many friends. I wrote an article back in February 2003 on Iraq's Christian community, then the third largest in the Middle East (Egypt's Coptic Christian is the largest and Lebanon's Maronite Christian the second largest though in percentage terms the Palestinians have been the largest with about 1/3 of all Palestinians being Christian), and wondered then if the war would not be the seed of their undoing. Of Iraq's one and half million Christians, mostly living in the Sunni heartland and the Kurdish north, probably only a quarter of a million remain in Iraq. They represent 25% of all Iraqi refugees and I've read reports citing figures that perhaps as many 200,000 Arab Iraqi Christians have been systematically slaughtered. For the record, I am historian and I have this fascination with odd minorities the world over. One of my favorites are the few remaining Jews in Rangoon (Burma), a culture that has been there 1,500 years. The Iraqi Christian community was a thriving one, boasting a large commercial and professional class, Tarik Aziz a long-serving deputy to Saddam Hussein serving as Foreign Secretary, Deputy Premier was a Christian.
There is much commentary both in the mainstream press and the right-wind blogs that the surge is succeeding. I dispute that. Baghdad is as lawless now as it has been at any time in the past four years. But the kicker is a comment made in the segment by the Anglican vicar, "there isn't anybody left to kill." Baghdad has been remade both by American incompetence, ignorance and hubris as well as by the sheer hatred of Islamic sectarian violence. Whereas ethnic cleansing in the Balkans was largely forestalled, in Mesopotamia it has been a resounding success. Baghdad will never again be what it once was ethnically and I even have to wonder if Baghdad will enjoy a modicum of modern conveniences such as running water or electricity in the next decade.
There is a true story about President McKinley after the Spanish-American War in 1898 debating on whether or not to annex the Philippines. He stayed up all night praying before God answered him (hey at least it wasn't a phone call to Mike Huckabee) and saying to him that "Yes, annex the Philippines and make them a Christian nation." I love this story because it proves that there is no God, only delusional minds who hear imaginary voices, but also speaks volumes about the arrogance of American foreign policy. Spain having ruled the Philippines had already made the country 90% Catholic and I am pretty sure that if there is a God that God would count Catholics as Christians. But it is this uniquely American trait that is more insidious and it is prevalent without much afterthought throughout American society that somehow that US is better than other countries and that other countries cannot be "on the right path" unless they do things exactly as they are done in the US. The US has over 700 military bases and installations with personnel in over 130 countries around the world. At what point do Americans start to consider the world they have wrought? I am not quite sure when the rest of the world will openly rebel but I sure do hope it happens soon.
E.T. @ 14:
You think Bush is a Christian? Ha! I've known since 1999 that it's all b.s. A lot of people are still in the dark. Mostly the evangelical types. They should switch on their brains.
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