John McCain: Let's Stay In Iraq For "100 Years"!
By Nicole Belle Thursday Jan 03, 2008 11:01am
At a campaign stop in New Hampshire with booster Holy Joe Lieberman, Republican presidential contender John McCain shows that he has his finger on the pulse of the national mood (2/3 of New Hampshire citizens poll that they want the troops home now) by telling potential voters that he'd like to stay in Iraq for 100 years.
Q: President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years -- " (cut off by McCain)
McCain: "Make it a hundred."
Q: "Is that ..." (cut off)
McCain: "We've been in South Korea ... we've been in Japan for 60 years. We've been in South Korea 50 years or so. That would be fine with me. As long as Americans ..."
Q: [tries to say something]
McCain: "As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That's fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Qaeda is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day.
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FRUST!
This shithead WILL be the one the Repubs end up with. The Bushbase types won't suffer populism on their watch. Huckabee has violated the GOP code of pandering the peons and daring to speak against the Corporatocracy.
So it's this dipshit. And comments like this by McCain need to be framed and mounted on every blog out there to remind the American public just what another damn Republican President brings to the table.
Edwards 08!
WTF...McCain saying that "as long as Americans are not being injured or harmed
or wounded or killed" we can stay in Iraq for 100 years??? Does he not know
that each and every day our fine military personnel are in fact being "injured/harmed/wounded and killed in Iraq" What an idiot..
He's toast......
What a raving dork. Might as well relect Bush
It's ok with me if McCain goes to Iraq and stays for 100 years.
Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran! Double Guantanamo! 100 more years! The party of raving nut jobs. You would think it would be easy to trounce these morons this time, right?
and trillions more for the war profiteers
and working men and women butchered on both sides
it's an age old story
hillary and obama like it too
I agree with John...but only if I can get a double Gitmo on the side.
Capt. Bat Guano @ 7:
i hate when people call the right nut jobs or idiots or morons...they have an agenda
it is just morally and legally and fiscally bankrupt
it serves the higher powers and not us
bush and cheney are doing a great job...depending onj your persepctive
and people wonder why america is feared, despised, and hated by so many people around the world.
the GOP and a large segment of society (including a LOT of dems) really do not understand the nature of the world, how our economic and military imperialism has been the biggest reason for terrorist funding and activity. and all for what? american prosperity? no, only if you are in the top .1% of the population. no, for americans we have seen the might, influence and power of america hijacked (or re-hijacked) to cater to the interests of the market fundamentalists and the wargasm-crowd. and the result has been loss of jobs, loss of clout, weakening dollar, weakening influence, increased terrorism, hypocrisy, and global resentment.
the current neoliberal/neoconservative/market fundamentalism/imperialism has been a complete and utter failure.
mccain, true to form, has been left behind. if this were 1981 i think people would be more willing to listen to his imperialistic bullshit. but we have seen the results of these policies and we are worse off for them.
without a fundamental change from idiotic and irresponsible policies, like this 100 year joke, america's ailment might be terminal.
Just goes to prove that the most sane of the repub candidates is totally batshit crazy.
STOP THE PRESS!
Unfortunately the press has just been handed a gift, little Miss Wonderful is about to distract the public again, wonder what they don't want people to think about now?
Spears Taken in Ambulance After Standoff
McCAIN = The Manchurian Candidate???????
.
In other news today.....
Huckabee adviser acknowledges plan to go negative in South Carolina.
Ed Rollins miffed at Townhall blogger for eavesdropping
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Ed_Rollins_miffed_at_Townhall_blogger_0104...
Nice! That's going to come back to bite him.
CafeenMan @ 6:
He and his handfull of supporters.
It's not at all fine with me, and most Americans either.
It's obvious that he remembered to take his stupid pills
Lets hope this is the year that old, crusty, backward-ass, angry, greedy, conservative white men are buried for good in this country.
ROTFLOL oh yeah this makes sooo much sense .... l;eave them in a hostile region, where they are targets, is fine with him. . . . Just as long as no one get's hurt.
My eyes are bouncing around in my head trying to make sense of or try to understand that train of thought.
I'd expect better from someone who has fought in a war.
South Korea has a clearly-delineated border secured by thousands of US troops, backed up by a sympathetic defending army, and hundreds of thousands of mines to keep the sides apart. How is that model similar to Iraq?
Japan's military and government were beaten down and ultimately surrendered after massive sacrifice and expense. There was dissent among some of the population about whether to accept surrender, but there weren't dozens of religious factions looking for an opportunity to wipe out their competitors by civil war or ethnic cleansing. Again, how does he see this situation as proof that occupation will be peaceful?
Ok with me. The french and britiish have had permanent forts in the region off and on since biblical times. It might help to draw the terrorists out and improve communications with the good guys in the region if we maintained defendable spaces. Give our military something to do other than stay home and play war and just draw a paycheck and beef up the reume. Most of all it will provoke worthless shitheads that dont like us into throwing the first punch away from innocent american communities. Saving good well educated american lives. All and all poor folks will carry this burden for a long, long time. Ha Ha!
Check out the guy in the front row of the audience. When McCain says "100 years" he looks up at him in open-mouthed astonishment. I had the same "wtf" reaction. McCain needs a field sobriety test.
When you think about it, he sounds like a smart ass by saying that. It totally sounds like something bush might say to the press when he's making one of his wise assed off the cuff remarks.
And where does this idiot of a candidate John McCain expect to find the funds and troops to support his endless campaign. I doubt he has even thought of it. What a twit.
"That’s fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Qaeda is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day."
McCain is a fool if this is what he truly believes. However, I don't think this is what he truly believes - this is a convenient excuse, no more.
The reasons cited by Bin Laden himself for coming over and attacking NYC in the first place were that American had a presence in Saudi Arabia, wasn't it?
Doesn't the term "blowback" carry any meaning for Sen. McCain?
He's truly an idiot if he believes continuing the strategy that has proven to be dangerous to not only American lives but also the lives of those around the world (by association) is a good idea.
16 - I think the Iraqis might have a problem with that...
How many American troops do we have in japan and Korea, who many of them were put over there on false pretenses and how many of them are getting blown to bits everyday?
What! Cut and Run after 100 years!?!
Eric- yes - That's a perfect point to make. I don't, however, forsee any of the current Pres. candidates having the balls to make this point.
The American people don't believe in blowback. We're Americans, and we should be loved wherever we goosestep, all over the world because we're bringing freedom, goddamnit! And if you don't like it, we'll blow up your country and take your oil while we administer that freedom. God Bless America! Our God can beat up your god! Yee fucking haw.
Tell me again why we have bases in 160 countries?
How many American troops do we have in Japan and Korea? How many were put there on false pretenses? How many are getting blown to bits everyday?
Was what I meant to say.
Don't you just love how when liberals draw a parallel between Iraq and Vietnam, we're told the world isn't that simple, and there's no resemblance ... but then clowns like McCain come and tell us a long-term presence is Just Like Korea, or Just Like Japan.
As recent events reminded the public, we're technically still at war with Korea. When the Frat Boy-in-Chief failed to understand that, the two Korean leaders engaged in diplomacy on their own, recognizing that America and its current leadership are clueless, ineffectual, and don't really give a sh-t about either country.
Not only did Japan's surrender came after we dropped two nukes on them, it was amid the background of World War II, with the complexities that entails, not toppling Tojo and sprinkling some magic democracy dust on the place.
We need to be better served than with a one-size-fits-all foreign policy, and that means picking leaders who understand this. Sitting in Iraq for 10, 100, or even 1,000 years is simply Class-A Stupidity when set against the background of a religious conflict that has existed since Mohammed kicked the bucket in 618 A.D.
Question for Mr McCain; If Your neighbor from the other side of your block started parking his Lincoln Navigator in your driveway every day, would it bother you? Would you do anything about it? Now apply that logic to what you just said about US presence in other countries.
obviously no one cares that our entire gubmint budget is being funded by debt. how long are the countries of the world supposed to lend us money to hold them hostage?
CoIntelPro @ 31:
According to McCain I guess we should and we should be using our tax dollars to pay for them to stay there for a 100 years. Especially the countries that have oil and other natural resources of value.
Fade @ 30:
Sigh. Yes, point taken...
Smart move for him. Why appear to waffle at the last moment? It would look weak. His opinions may be wrong but he's trying to ride the "sticks to his guns" platform.
What a senile old twat.
The Insanity of it All
Feb. 7,'03 Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to U.S. troops in Aviano, Italy: "It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."
March 16,'03 Vice President Cheney, on NBC's Meet the Press: "I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq, from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . (in) weeks rather than months."
March 27,'03 Bush, at a news conference with British Prime Minister Tony Blair, when asked how long the war would take: "However long it takes. That's the answer to your question and that's what you've got to know."
Six days, six weeks, six months, six years, six decades, forever and a day just remember armed robbery of a country takes time. Bush/Cheney knew what they were and are doing from the get go. Watch No End In Sight to see that this is working just as they planned.
Check this book out folks:
McCain: The Myth of a Maverick
by Matt Welch
Hardcover: 256 pages
Publisher: Palgrave Macmillan (October 16, 2007)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0230603963
ISBN-13: 978-0230603967
Book Description
John McCain is one of the most familiar, sympathetic, and overexposed figures in American politics, yet his concrete governing philosophy and actual track record have been left curiously unexamined, mostly because of the massive distractions in his official biography, but also because of his ingenious strategy of talking ad infinitum to each and every access-craving media person who happens by. The more he has spouted, the less journalists have bothered trying to see through the fog.McCain gives the voting public what it wants but can't find -- a flesh-and-bones political portrait of a man onto whom people are forever projecting their own ideological fantasies. It is a psychological key for decoding his allegedly 'maverick' actions, and the first realistic assessment of what a John McCain presidency may look like. McCain will quickly lay out in overlapping detail the root cause of the senator's worldview: his personal transformation from underachieving punk to war hawk uber-patriot, in which he used the "higher power" of American nationalism to save his life and soul. As McCain wrenches himself inside-out in pursuit of the prize that eluded him in 2000, McCain will look behind the war hero, behind the maverick reformer. Journalist and pundit Matt Welch brings to this project an investigative eye and a coolly analytical mindset to provide Republicans, Democrats and Independents a picture of the man in full before they enter the voting booth in 2008.
Review
"How the journalistic elite got taken for a ride on the Straight Talk Express is one of the revelatory sagas of modern-day Washington. Matt Welch has the audacity to think that John McCain's views matter, not only his legends, and he smokes out McCain with gusto. You don't have to follow him every inch of the way into libertarian politics--as I do not--to be dazzled by the light he casts on a telling tragedy of American politics."--Todd Gitlin, author of The Bulldozer and the Big Tent: Blind Republicans, Lame Democrats, and the Recovery of American Ideal
"The redoubtable Matt Welch does the unconscionable today: he writes an op-ed for the LA Times in which he examines John McCain’s actual views on the issues.... Hear hear.... [McCain’s] flip-flops get a lot of attention mainly because they’re easy to find and satisfying to point out. Actually looking past his occasionally “maverick” views is far more important." -- Kevin Drum, The Washington Monthly
the Republican/Corporate agenda is failing. ABOUT TIME!!! I wonder what they'll have in store for us now to "keep us all in line".
Keep your eye on these criminals. And Go Obama/Edwards.
Hate to be his press agent right about now:
"What the Senator meant to say while he had his foot in his mouth was ..."
Obviously McCain is talking about a peace time military presence. We should be honest that if they did manage to stabilize Iraq a peace time presence wouldn't be that far out to lunch. Unfortunately no one is thinking about "peace time" when they talk about withdrawing troops from Iraq. They're thinking about the front lines of a deadly and costly war where US presence is questionable.
He loves war too much. Maybe he needs a few more years of torture; in Gitmo.
Ehhh....Let's not instead..... McCain? Why don't you.... Ahhh fuck it, he's an old man who is hitting the wall... Go home John... Viet Nam is over... and so are you...
JD
Amitola @ 4:
Maybe, maybe not, but this sure means that Giuliani is toast. McCain is consolidating the crazy militarist vote in his camp, and that leaves Giuliani without much of a base. Who, at this point, is going to vote for Giuliani if McCain seems credible other than people made giddy by torture who can't bring themselves to vote for a Mormon? That may be a sizable number of Republicans, but it's not enough for Giuliani to win.
Not to defend McCain, but he's right, the USA has been in Korea and Japan for more than 50 years. And as CointelPro points out, we have bases in 160 countries. How many of the Major Brand Name Party Politicians are challenging this blatant Imperialism? Iraq and Afghanistan are just manifestations of the American Imperialist culture.
Don't just hate the player, hate the game.
Do we get credit for the 17 years we've already put in over there? If so, then "Mission 17% Accomplished!"
pissed off patricia @ 12:
They must be passing out really good drugs on Capitol Hill.
AndrewK @ 44:
A peacetime presence in Iraq is dependent on the Iraqis and their government, not McCain.
Truth is, it's '100 years or however long it takes us to suck their oil reserves dry and completely rape their economy'.
Okay. Just rape and run? Youve all had your fun? Even if it is a mistake we are still responsible for virtually destroying that country.
McCain: “As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That’s fine with me, I hope that would be fine with you, if we maintain a presence in a very volatile part of the world where Al Qaeda is training and equipping and recruiting and motivating people every single day."
This is exactly why the rest of the world hates America. Because you dont give a shit about anyone but yourself. McCain doesnt even mention democracy and what the Iraqi people want. (Hint: they want you to leave THEIR country asap because you've treated them like dirt).
Couldn't he run for president of Iraq?
That way, he can keep his eye on all those terrorists his party imported into the country.
A senelic dickhead and his senilic running mate.
Comparing Iraq to Japan, South Korea, Germany, etc. is simply obtuse and void of any intellectual substance.
AndrewK @ 44:
Yeah, but he was slow in figuring out what he was saying. He had to correct his statement to show that he wasn't agreeing with Bush after he said he as agreeing with Bush, but double Bush. In other words, two scoops of Bush with a cherry on top.
The Saudis have made it clear that they would be the logical choice to be the Arab owners of Iraq. Iran wants to have a long term presence in Iraq too.
And finally, even the Iraqis want a long term military presence in Iraq.
I guess we'll have to duke it out to see who gets ownership for the next 100 years.
brookstroy @ 22:
You should learn some history.
"The french and britiish have had permanent forts in the region off and on since biblical times." Permanent forts? No. European crusaders marched into the middle east periodically, but they achieved nothing. The point of the Crusades was pillage and plunder, under the pretense of defending Christianity. The Crusades failed in every way. They are proof that foreign intervention in the ME doesn't work.
European foreign policy since the collapse of the Ottoman Empire has been one sad failure after another. This is perhaps because European objectives were Imperialistic, anti-democratic and self-interested. The Brits tried and failed to control the oil supplies of Iraq and Iran. They cut a deal with France to divide up the region, but the people wouldn't have it.
Yup, the people. Them. They always get in the way. Isn't it annoying when you bring your brand of freedom to a bunch of ungrateful brown-skinned camel jockeys who think you just want another Empire of your very own? And why would they think any differently? History has proven them right.
There have always been seemingly excellent reasons to intervene in the Middle East. Controlling the sea lanes and land access to India; preventing the terrible Russian Tsars (and then the Soviets) from expanding to the South; protecting Jerusalem from the Muslim hordes; preventing the nasty Arabs from overrunning Israel; and then there's the biggest prize of all, oil.
It's all just an excuse for Empire. Nothing more.
Who benefits? The ideologues, the arms makers, the bureaucrats, the pundits and ass-lickers in the think-tanks, the military-industrial complex, the puppet regimes, the local warlords with offshore bank accounts.
Who pays? You do, along with the rest of the taxpayers. So do the people who mortgaged their houses to pay medical bills because the US is the only democracy without public health care, even though it spends $$trillions every year on aircraft carriers and hundreds of foreign bases.
McCain is telling the military-industrial complex that he's their man. No more, no less.
Well we could start by withdrawing and closing down some of those 800 bases that we have in foreign countries. Might help in reducing that huge military budget that we have.
boy! i hope everyone in new hampshire--and every other state for that matter--hears this.
am i crazy or did the audience look at him like they think he is crazy?
that guy in the front row--check out his mouth:O
i take back my prediction that johnny walnuts will not get the nom. in new hamp. or anywhere else.
this needs to be replayed all over, over and over.
but who does that leave for n.h.? romney? i'm thinking really really low republican voter turnout.
Same old war mongering McCain. Living off his POW status he is considered acceptable by way of his service to this country. BIG FRIGIN DEAL! How many others have sacrificed for this country without recognition or security.
I am an Arizonian who is fed up with McCain not doing his job as our Senator. He has missed roughly 70% of votes this year. If I don't do my job I don't get paid...so why are we allowing this leach to receive his Senators pay?
Lets not forget the Keating Five Scandal. McCain is a crook pure and simple. It will be a sad day in America if he were to become our President. Just a sheep in BUSH clothing! An extension of what is wrong with this countries political arena.
I say to all Americans DO NOT VOTE FOR MCCAIN! I say to all Arizonians REMOVE HIM FROM THE SENATE SEAT THAT HE DISGRACES!
not not of course
Thats a message that'll resonate with the American populace. McCain and Jomentum promising war without end amen.
Annoyed Canuck @ 58:
[Deleted. Abusive-Sitemonitor]
We should stay until they throw candy and flowers at us, or 100 years, whichever comes first. Is St. McCain suggesting a timetable when he says we should stay for 100 years? If so, they'll just wait 100 years, then follow us here.
"As long as Americans are not being injured or harmed or wounded or killed. That’s fine with me."
Americans aren't being injured, harmed, wounded and killed? Hmph- guess I was wrong. Apparently I need to watch more Fox News!
Vicki Hampton @ 65:
Exactly, he's just talking about adding bases to another country with oil.
He doesn't remember that we're still fighting a war there. He is getting up there in years.
podhoretz is mcbain's ventriloquist, i mean top advisor so it doesn't surprise me what this
fucknard says
Let's not and say we did McPain.
They should have dumped this dude in Cambodia....
Looks like "charlie" really fucked him up....
LOL!!!
Vicki @ 65- lol... "Romney-supporting Freak?" Wow, Repubs ARE losing it, they don't even know when to blame us Liberals anymore...
Yes these morons will spend trillions supporting troops in all these countries We need to bring all these troops home. The expense is immense. The transporting of them burns fuel that doesn't need to be expended People in this country are hungry, need health care and education not to mention scores of other problems and we continue to piss money away feeding the military industrial complex
When will we ever get over this madness?
Another hundred years?How many more trillions of debt inducing dollars will that amount to?Imagine if you will,the sorry state of the American economy,infrastructure,and health care system in 100 blood soaked years.
we have a presence in the mideast already. we have a base in Suadi Arabia and are BFF's Israel are always willing to provide support as long as we do their dirty work for them.
Vicki Hampton @65
First step: there needs to be peace.
An ongoing police presence consisting of an endless battle against insurgents at the cost of mounting casualties that will eventually destroy our military is not 'peace keeping,' it's an occupation (and a badly run one).
Asked about the remark later by Mother Jones's David Corn, McCain reaffirmed it, "excitedly declaring that U.S. troops could be in Iraq for 'a thousand years' or 'a million years,' as far as he was concerned."
How long does he think their oil can last?
Weaseldog @ 77:
He must running on the "Biblical" calender..
FUCK JOHN MCCAIN.WE SHOULD HAVE LEFT IN VIETNAM.
Why doesn't this authoritarian ask the Japanese what they think of the US' presence there? Not that he'd care. Hopefully when these idiots drive the US economy into the ground the Chinese will try to do the same here. I'm sure McCain wouldn't mind, it's in the best interests of the Chinese to do so. No big deal. Just a few thousand Red Army troops in his neighborhood. I'm sure he'd have no problem with that.
pepper @ 80:
yeah the arrogance is stunning.
HOW ABOUT NO MORE MONEY FOR ISRAEL,UNTIL 100 YEARS ARE UP.
Dementia... it is very sad.
I hate playing devil's avocate for McCain, but I think anyone who takes over from Bush faces the reality that we laid this turd of a war and we need to do something to clean it up.
I just saw "Charlie's War" and it's possible we never would have had 9-11 if we had stepped in to clean up the mess the Soviets made in Afganistan.
Until we get off our oil fix, we'll continue to be in the Middle East whether we like it not.
"improve communications with the good guys in the region"
This is a funny comment. Who are the "good guys"? Well, since you obviously lack any critical thinking skills, you'll simply accept what the government tells you. The government told people like you that the Shah was a good guy, unfortunately people like you didn't think critically about the "blowback" of us thinking of him as a good guy and Iranians reacted in '79. We were giving the Shah the means to make nukes and said that Iran had a justifiable reason for nuclear energy at the time. Now they're bad guys, because the government tells you they are, and can't. Saddam was a "good guy" when he was killing his own people with the weapons and bio agents the US gave him, he turned into a monster when he stopped killing his people with our weapons because he made the nobles in this country mad. The people who attacked the US on 9/11 were "good guys", still are indirectly, and wouldn't have had a fraction of the power if it weren't for US and British intelligence.
Outside of the ME, Colombia (with the worse human rights record in the Western Hemisphere) is full of "good guys" who receive tons of aid and weapons (the CIA is nice enough to look away as the groups the US supports in the region sell the majority of the drugs). The groups doing most of the killing in Haiti are "good guys" (with tons of funding from organizations in the US like the NED), the fact that they slaughter innocent people and removed a democratically elected government not withstanding. The groups in Venezuela who removed the democratically elected government, dissolved all branches of government and the constitution that the people voted on in a national referendum are "good guys". You, on the other hand, are a gullible idiot and I hope you visit the countries in which the US are supporting "good people". Go to a country in the ME and see with your own eyes what these wonderful people are doing with your tax dollars, you f$cking snake.
Breedin' & Warin' is fun! Let's get to sum Breedin' and Then sum Warin'! Then more Breedin' Then More Warin'! Cum on People! Get with the Repuglician Agenda! Breedin & Warin' Forever!!!1
We Americans would be outraged if Iraq or some other middle eastern country had a military base in Mexico or Central America. Why would the middle east act any differently if we set-up military installations in their region?
What stands out to me is his ill temper. This is his fundamental problem for McCain in an executive position. You cannot be petulant and impatient and instill confidence in your leadership ability at the same time.
Can you say TOTAL IDIOT ? This McCain-type mindset is so bassAckwards as to make ones head spin about like a turbine. Is it any wonder that the USA has such an aggressive history with folks like this running things? I hope I live to see the day where the USA will collectively pull its head out of its ass and begin to ask REAL QUESTIONS such as WHY so many wish harm upon this nation? Perhaps it just may be the unregulated corporate fascism that has been foisted upon nations run by equally greedy rulers?
A military solution is the first tell tail of a WEAK LEADER.
Vicki Hampton @ 65:
Peace keeping troops, huh?
Not quite. The United Nations has been putting together peacekeeping missions since it was founded in 1945. Some have been failures, like Rwanda in the early 90s. Many, many others have been major long-term successes. The US has never participated in a UN peacekeeping mission (other than perhaps Korea, which was officially a joint UN military action). There are some very valid reasons for this. As a superpower with vested interests all over the world, the US is better off avoiding most conflicts that require long-term police actions in foreign countries.
Also, the US military hates peacekeeping missions. So do most US voters (recent examples: Kosovo and Somalia). The US military's mission is to fight and win wars at the direction of the president, not to intervene in foreign civil conflicts.
The US forces in Germany, Japan and Korea are not peacekeepers. That's absurd - these countries have been stable democracies for 50 years and more. Korea is wealthy and strong enough to defend itself. An attack by the North would be suicidal.
US forces abroad are armies of occupation.
84 2cents Says:
"I hate playing devil’s avocate for McCain, but I think anyone who takes over from Bush faces the reality that we laid this turd of a war and we need to do something to clean it up.
I just saw “Charlie’s War” and it’s possible we never would have had 9-11 if we had stepped in to clean up the mess the Soviets made in Afganistan."
it is always risky to use a movie for proof, and if this is what 'charlie's war' gives as an explanation for 911 (i have not seen the movie) it is not very accurate. or, should i say, it is but one piece of the thousand piece jigsaw puzzle. (other pieces: US troops in saudi arabia, US support of ME dictators, neoliberal economic imperialism, rampant poverty and desperation, etc.)
yes, we did make a mess of iraq, invading illegally and focusing on oil profits over social stability. BUT this does not mean that we keep our military there to clean up. again, the 911/afghani example is a serious stretch. anyway, the US military should not be utilized as a 'clean up' force.
i think you have drawn a false conclusion. you seem to argue that LEAVING iraq now could possibly lead to another 911. i would strenuously argue that STAYING would.
2cents @ 84:
If a bull wrecks your china shop, then the bull should clean it up.
the combover can do no wrong to the villagers
Does anyone think this will be McCain's 'voted for it before I voted against it' line that will be played over and over in campaign commercials? I hope so.
@78:
Then we'd be done in 40 days & 40 nights ... mission accomplished. /snark
anon-y-muss @ 89:
I remember when the ideas that we wouldn't be greeted as liberators and that the war would drag on for years were 'total nonsense'.
Over and over, the proclamations that turned out to be BS were treated as sane and reasonable, while the prognostications that came true were all, 'total nonsense'.
From the ChickenHawk side, every fantastical Candyland prediction has been greeted seriously, while those that look at history and see it repeating have been dismissed as the fringe.
One again, the 'This Time Is Different' crowd wins. Every war is different this time, every market bubble is different this time, every pull on the one armed bandit, is different this time.
We're ruled by the compulsive gambler mentality. Every time, we fall for the same con game.
Hey, what was that sound?
Sounds like a train wreck!
Hope there were fatalities...
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAAA! :twisted:
They say people who went to Vietnam went a little crazy.
Now I see the proof.
How, exactly is this dumbass planning to pay for 100 years in Iraq?
Well, now. "As long as Americans aren't killed or injured...?" What about all the Iraqis who have been killed and injured, and left homeless, and left without electric power and water, and left without health services, and whose infrastructure has been destroyed...all on account of our illegal, brutal, and unilateral attack on their sovereign country, which was based on lies and manipulated intelligence?
Before anyone with a brain and a conscience can take you seriously, Sen. McCain, we need an answer to that question. And don't reply about "terrorism," because that's been around since Iraq was called Mesopotamia.
Regarding the 'out of context' remark at #89 (now deleted) ...
No, it wasn't 'out of context'. Spin it as you will, the remark about Bush saying we'll be there for 50 years and McCain's, "Maybe 100" is clear.
If he was remarking that BUSH had MAYBE said 100, it makes no sense, because a meaningful comment would either be stating we can leave sooner, or are committed to an even longer term. (And McCain has already gone beyond 100 to 1,000,000.)
John McCrazy.
2cents @ 84:
I will like you to play his nurse at the nut house and not devils advocate.
2cents @ 84:
You might want to check into your facts on 'Charlie's War' -- 'stepping up to clean up the mess' wouldn't have kept troops out of Saudi Arabia, or kept us from bombing Iraq for 10 years. If you buy a Tom Hanks movie as an accurate representation of "super happy funtime" US meddling then you should refrain from political participation going forward.
pepper @ 85:
mr. brew @ 104:
No kidding!
But not surprising, the average American thinks movies ARE reality.
Well that ends McCain's run in New Hampshire. All Rev. Huck has to do now is keep his mouth closed and just let the floating cross aka bookshelf to his talking for him. Sometimes no one has to bring you down as McCain showed all he has to do is talk.
What does McCain care if we're there 100 years? He won't live to see any of it. Sometimes I think we need an age maximum as well as an age minimum for president--and we ought to lower the minimum.
Shadowgm @ 101:
You deleted my comment without even reading or understanding it? McCain didn't say "make it 100" like Nicole said, he said "Maybe 100", listen to the clip again yourself if you want. And "Maybe 100" *does* make more sense. Bush said 50 years, McCain was contending that maybe it would actually be 100 and went on to mention Korea etc. as precedents. Don't you think that these guys say enough crazy things that we can just stick to what's actually said? Anyone who doubts me should listen to the clip again, he *clearly* says "maybe 100".
Shadowgm @ 101:
btw, you seem to be admitting here that McCain said "Maybe 100" which means he *didn't* say "Make it 100" as Nicole alleged, which was my original point!. It's not an issue of context, Nicole flat out misquoted him, period.
Impeach all the war criminals in the Bush admin, TODAY!
AWESOME!!!
McCain just guarenteed the Presidency to the Democrats.
Unhappy registered Republican voters will elect a Democrat for President.
this guy is a POS. i respect him because he was a POW for so long and served our country honorably, BUT THIS BS about maintaining a permanent presence in Iraq is criminal, beyond the pale.
He's immoral.
Annoyed Canuck @ 58:
'broadsword @ # 99'
" How exactly is this dumbass planning to pay for 100 years in Irqaq?'
Answer: Borrow more money.
So in other words John, you feel the USA can take their military road show anywhere in the world, plunk 'er down and set up camp for as long as they like under the disquise of "policing" (which is wrong) but moreso, to control that geograhical region to the "American Way"?
How fucking dangerous and unacceptable will that be to most of the world? Do you not see the resistance now? Oh yes, you call it insurgency, I forgot.
What McKnucklehead is proposing is the start of dictating other nations freedom. Remember what Kristofferson said in "Bobby McGee"..."Freedom's just another word, for nothing left to lose" and maybe all this insurgency is exactly that....these true Islamist Arabs have nothing to lose because they can see their freedom is being taking away by this mirror image Christian right wing administration.
Annoyed Canuck @ 58:
Brilliant post!, and I think you are absolutely right about McCain, he desperately wants to take advantage of what is probably his last chance at the presidency and he's more than happy to sell himself to the powerful moneyed interests who's only real requirement in return is that he pimp for the war and integrate a hawkish stance into his platform. It's really no surprise that he's saying what he's saying, he's not an uber villain, he's a common sellout... but aren't most politicians? That's the key people. Republican or Democrat makes no difference whatsoever, the politicians serve the money, any politician who doesn't will not only be unable to raise campaign funds but will be squelched and sabotaged by the media which is controlled by the money and is consolidating into fewer and fewer powerful hands as we speak. They *have to* serve the money, it's do or die (political death). Until we control the money nothing is going to change... nothing!
Nothing wrong with what he said. Is he lying? Have we not been in Japan for 60 years? Korea for 50? So whats wrong with having troops in Iraq as long as Al Qaeda is equiping terrorists there and elsewhere in the region. I dont konw what the HELL is wrong with you people that want us out because americans have died. All i can say is i am glad you were not around during WWll cause if we had it your way we would all be speaking German or Japanese now.
Yes, its tragic americans have died. However, I served this great country for four years which is more than the majority of you can say. I say if you have not served, then stfu cause you dont know what your talking about.
motrbotr @ 118:
You are a retard.
This was an illegal war of choice, and it gave al Qaida a free urban attack training ground.
Let me repeat that so even a mouth breather like you can understand:
al Qaida is in Iraq because we the US illegally invaded the country and removed the ruler that was keeping al Qaida out of Iraq.
And to top it off the administration not only isn't looking for bin Laden, they have told the military NOT to go get him when they did find him (3 times so far that we KNOW about).
So shove that al Qaida be very afraid crap, it doesn't work any more except maybe on a low brow such as yourself.
So really the question is what the hell is wrong with you?
(That was rhetorical, I really just want you to STFU and go back to LGF where you came from.)
A triple shot of BULLSHIT. We should get out of all those places now. We are not the world's police department or babysitter.We can afford somehow magically to keep the military industrial complex and their minions (our elected representatives) happy by spending zillions of dollars we don't have, but we can't pay teachers a decent living wage.
DOES ANYBODY ELSE SEE THE IMBALANCE HERE????
Symes @ 119:
BTW - I did my time in hell with 3/7. So try to pull that I served shit on me and I'll make you eat it.
Asshat.
McCain thinks Americans are idiots.
One of the first things you learned in Foreign Policy classes is the danger of over-analogizing current foreign policy. One is biographical, "Saddam's another Hitler," psychoanalytical approaches, biological approaches (with comparison to animals fighting over turf), another is historical analogies like the Red Shirt of the Civil War, he's another Chamberlain (also biographical). McCain is using strained historical comparisons that are invalid.
The reason we're still in Korea and Japan as well as Germany is for strategically placed bases, not because the territory the troops are stationed in are currently hot spots, which is the case with Iraq. The Asian bases was partially because China went Communist soon after WWII, and of course while there was no danger in Western Germany, Eastern Germany went Communist. Without skipping a beat we went from the Germans and Japanese are our enemies, and the Soviet Union our ally to the Germans and Japanese are our allies, and the Soviet Union (and all Communists) are enemies. Our German bases were closer to the former USSR and the Warsaw Pact States. Now of course there are corporate interests in the cheap labor of Asia, and the Chinese are footing much of our economy, and the Germans own much of American businesses.
However, because Iraq is still a hot spot we're providing the rationale for further attacks on already exhausted American troops, who's deployments are now longer with less rest and training time, as well as time needed for material and ordinances replenishment.
And when you consider one of the original rationales of Al Qaeda, that they wanted to get foreign troops out of Saudi Arabia and all the Holy Sites, our very continuous presence is provacative that could spark off another round of violence, and be used as propoganda for renewed Al Qaeda recruitment.
The South Koreans are solving their own problems with the North without us.
INbanlanced. Did anyone notice the video was shot at the back. JUst one way of derailing the opposition. Propaganda. Isnt it illegal for this to be done on our own soil? (New age syops)
Funny thing though is that of all the republicants running, I could only see McCain as president. Sure he's opportunistic and changes views as often as ghouliani changes girlfriends, but unfortunately that's in the lifeblood of politicians.
I mean could you imagine romney with his used-car salesman sleaze, or assholier-than-thou hockaloogy as El-Presidente?
Oh yeah, I forgot to repeat ad nauseum, I served in the Air Force with a Top Secret clearance in one hand and a bong in another.
ysbaddaden @ 126:
Funny thing how con ex service always use it as a way to shut up dissent. :?
When is someone gonna tell me what haberdashers I can buy my own asshat from!!!
motrbotr @ 118:
Hey toss pot! I wish your grammar was better than your trends of thought. Can you please put your remaining brain cell to better use, like for instance, sucking the farts out of dead seagulls. It makes me want to scream every time I come across the likes of you and your ilk. You want to know “what the HELL is wrong with you people?” Find a mirror and take a look. Tell us ‘people’ what you see. Numpty!
What the fuck has WWII got to do with Iraq? Did the good you met in Iraq tell you that Al Qaeda was the reason you went there to serve? Perhaps they informed you Al Qaeda turned up after you arrived. Don’t pull your I served card on me you moron. You joined the military voluntarily, just like I did; for your own ideals; for your own needs; just like the rest of Armed Forces, including me. FYI it is not the death of soldiers that is the issue. That is what happens to service men at war; Good men. It is the illegal war and the bloody waste of money and lives of the people of Iraq and America. That is the point.
ysbaddaden @ 122:
Um, isn't that why the comparison to Korea and Japan is particularly apt in regard to Iraq? Do you really think we are there because of 9/11 or Al Quada?, if you do then you are as misguided as the 20%ers who still think that Saddam had something to do with 9/11. Stop letting them define the terms of the debate and play shell games with your mind, Al Quada is just a bogeyman to scare the gullible. Whatever the real reasons are for our presence in Iraq they have absolutely nothing to do directly with Al Quada. Further, if the reason that we are in Iraq isn't partly, if not mostly, in order to position strategically placed bases in the middle east and build a geo-political beachhead to support further excursions and campaigns into the region then why exactly do you suggest that we are building fourteen permanent bases there? And why do you think we are working on preconditioning negative public sentiment against Iran? It could even be argued that the war in Iraq going poorly is precisely what the neocons need at this point so that they can have an excuse to stay long enough to finish those bases, then once they are built we certainly aren't going to tear them down and walk away. McCain is really just tipping their hand a bit. The plan is to stay, the plan has always been to stay, and if America doesn't bankrupt herself in the process it is very likely that she will indeed stay. Possibly even for 100 years just like McCain said. I don't necessarily want that, or agree with it, but those are the facts.
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/23755/
If service to one's country is pourparlers to even state a political opinion than the most silent man in America should be that deserter boosh.
130 anon-y-muss
Our reason for being in Iraq is due to PNAC propaganda and boosh's insistance on non-existant WMD's. Al Qaeda was not in Iraq, because Hussein didn't trust them. However, they are there now apparently in local cells of Iraqiswith some help from the more international groups.
However, Al Qaeda is only a small part of what's been happening in Iraq. We're seeing tribal warfare, sectarian warfare, former Baathists fighting to regain power, parties fighting over oil rights, insurrection, revenge, and even common criminality trying to pass itself off as something grander.
I'd like to see what you people would do if another country were doing what we do to places like Okinawa Japan (which Chalmers Johnson talks about at length "Blowback"). Your head would explode if this happened to you, but you're an American so there is no need for objectivity. Again, what if China did this to YOUR neighborhood and the only justification given was that it was in their interests? There ARE some objective morals here that should be respected:
BuzzFlash: Mr. Johnson, you stated earlier that there are over 725 American military bases outside of the United States. On the occupied island of Okinawa, Japan, there are at least 38 separate bases that, as you describe it, occupy the choicest 20 percent of the island. How did your time spent in Okinawa have an impact on how you viewed this concept of the United States as an empire?
I was there in 1996, invited by the Governor of Okinawa, because of the fierce reaction that occurred to the event of Sept. 4, 1995, when two Marines and a sailor from Camp Henson in central Okinawa abducted, beat and raped a 12-year-old girl. It led to the biggest demonstrations against the United States since the security treaty had been signed. I began to study these incidents. I discovered that this was not an exceptional incident at all; the rate of sexually violent crimes committed by our troops in Okinawa leading to court martial averages about two per month, and has for half a century. The people of Okinawa are boiling like a volcano over the cost to them of living cheek-by-jowl with 38 American military bases, environmental pollution, prostitution and a whole range of problems.
My first reaction was that I was appalled by Okinawa. My reaction was that it must be exceptional -- that it's just simply off the beaten track. But as I began to study other bases around the world, I had to conclude, unfortunately, that it's not that Okinawa was exceptional or unique. It was far too typical of the conditions that exist around our military bases.
Revolt against them has been endemic. There was an Okinawan revolt against the seizure of land in the 1950s, and a tremendous revolt in 1970 over the use of Okinawa as a staging area for the Vietnam War.
anon-y-muss @ 130:
PS: I realize that may sound like a conspiracy nutjob thing to say but it would explain why George Bush thinks he will be vindicated by history. If we are just sandbagging and the plan is to finish the bases then ramp up combat operations to finally mop up the resistance that was being used as a pretense for the war up to that point, and thereby consolidate a permanent presence in the middle east, then assuming it works, do you really think that 30 to 50 years from now the general public will be condemning George Bush? And do you think that the trillions of unbacked paper currency that have been spent on the war would not be a happily paid price in the minds of the neocons for such a military prize as 14 permanent bases in a region that contains some of the largest remaining oil reserves in the world? I'm not necessarily saying this is precisely what is happening, how could I ever know for sure?, all I'm saying is that it's possible that something like this has been the plan all along, and that could easily explain why George Bush has such a radically different view of how things are going than everyone else... because the problems that we see are *part* of his warped plans, or more accurately those of his puppeteers.
Hmm, maybe it is a conspiracy nutjob thing to say after all. :) Then again, you try and explain to me some other rationale for our not stopping the looting, not getting utilities and water back on so that everyone was all pissed off and ready to fight, disbanding the Iraqi military so there were thousands of unpaid soldiers with no better way to feed their hungry families than joining the insurgency, arming the Sunni as long as they promised not to use the weapons against us and then not keeping records of who we gave weapons too... It's almost like we want things to be messed up isn't it?
I wonder why that might be...
ysbaddaden @ 132:
No, those are not our reasons for being in Iraq, those are our excuses for being in Iraq. The propaganda and lies about WMD were not reasons they were deceptions, the conceptual tools that were used to substitute and cover up for the real reasons. They lied us into Iraq. Stories about WMD were lies, the reason that I am italicizing the word lies is to imply intent, they lied on purpose, they *knew* they were lying, and they did it to cover up our real motives. Citing WMD as a reason for our being in Iraq now is almost as bad as still believing there were WMD!
i want to hear more about the 3 times we found bin laden.....
also more use of "go suck the farts out of dead seagulls". that was both the dumbest thing AND the funniest thing i've heard all day. hooray.
vote for McCain ,
and get more of the same !! .
I wonder where the wmds went. I beleive there was a record of them. Wmd's are documented i would hope.
Oh come on John tell us how you really feel. Isn't it a reich that is supposed to last a thousand years? Why settle for a mere century?
The foot in mouth attribute of Senator McCain is so endearing and just when he is being perceived being a winner in Iowa by virtue of Romney's stumble. Yikes!
First of all Americans ARE being injured or harmed or wounded or killed everyday in Iraq. More Americans have been killed in Iraq than in 9/11 and something like 25,000 have been wounded.
Second, Al-Qaeda has nothing to do with Iraq, the only reason they are there is to fight us. We are giving them an easy target. They weren't there before. Also Iraqi's have shown they won't tolerate a fundamentalist movement in their country. Remember this is the nation that fought the Islamic republic of Iran for a decade.
Third Iraq is not Japan or Germany or Korea. If you want to examine what Iraq would be like under western influence you have much better analogies. The first ones that jump out to me are the British occupation and installment of a Monarchy in Iraq after WWI. That led to a rebellion which ultimatley led to Saddam Hussein becoming dictator. Another, better analogy, would be in Israel or Palestine. Palestinians have not become any less violent 60 years after occupation.
David N @ 137:
That's a great slogan but what amazes me is that after two stolen elections and the proliferation of electronic voting machines with closed source software and no paper trail, plus the fact that any candidate who strays out of lockstep is alienated and excluded from debates thereby eliminating them from the running even before there is a chance to vote for them thus guaranteeing that only the status quo and bought and paid for candidates will be on the ballot on election night, that anyone still thinks their vote matters.
There's a movie called 'Waking Life' that has a line that goes something like 'do I take the puppet on the left, or the puppet on the right?'... I couldn't have said it better myself! LOL
Keep focusing on the media circus surrounding the candidates and then rock the vote people, see if it makes one iota of difference... maybe it will... about as much difference as the 'impeachment is off the table' democratic congress is making huh? :)
(and don't tell me that they don't have the votes for impeachment, if they aren't willing to take a stand on principle then how will they be any different than politicians who have no principles.)
What the hell is wrong with this party? It cost big money to maintain this bases overseas, this country is going broke and corporations are making a killing on no-bid contracts. John McCain would be a disaster for America, nay, the world.
OK. first off, fair warning, this is a long post.... In reading thru this thread I'm struck by the fact that some see it one way and some see it another... Be it geopolitical realpolitik strategy or fear based blind patriotism reaction to 9/11 or just out and out cold blooded imperialism and a desire to secure oil supplies at another nations expense... Lots of views but noone is really calling the spade a spade on this thread, noone is really speaking to what's at the heart of it all. We're all nibbling around the edges blaming each other for what we think or whether or not we have or don't have dd214's in our individual resumes.. without looking at the core reason why all of this from the dead and maimed in multilple nations now to the very existence of this blog site and others like it on both sides of the ideological fence...
Are these all not valid reasons to hold someone accountable for the current state of the world, which lets face it.. is clearly a magnitude more dangeorus then even 10 years ago when all the rage was Monica and Kosevo and phony unsustainable dot com booms just to name a very few??? After basically 100 friggin years of this same old shit can't we come up with something better as a species then killing each other over bullshit??? I mean, we can put people on the moon and devices on other planets for exploration but somehow can't figure out how to get ourselves past the dangers wrought by the industrial revolution short of killing over finite resources? Can't figure out how to share without involking some ideological drivel about socialism verses capitalism and who is better, nah nah nah yadda yadda yadda ad nuseum???....
If the current world situation can be discribed as a house on fire and if Bush and Cheney are the freaking little pyros who lit the match, is it not rational for the world to want to see them held accountable. I suspect and fear that unless we change the paradigm and nature of how we all interact on this little marble, but especially how we in America are dealing with all this, we will end up doomed at some point...and probably sooner rather than later. I feel we as a species can still right this ship, correct our course, which is at present, a trainwreck of biblical proportions just waiting to happen.. A real clash of civilizations noone alive today has never seen in their lifetimes. Not even the big ol WWII clash, but it will take some hard core reevaluating on how the worlds nations have been behaving for the better part of the last 500 years.... And deciding to do something significantly different....
I note a lot of back and forth over military service and WWII as analogy and using that as one reason why we should stay in Iraq and continue to bleed for generations and to continue wrecking our national economy but I submit it is wrong. The analogy false, the reasoning flawed, but if one wants to take that course in discussion, I would like to remind everyone that at the conclusion of that war a tribunal held the nazi leadership and much of the exisiting heads of their military accountable for the world fire 'they' set and made those leaders pay the price for their evil and mendacity. If fair minded people regardless of race, creed, color or national origins or religious affiliation wants to change this current tune, then I believe we must revisit and make real the lessons of WWII or not only is the future of this planet bleak long term, but in the here and now, the lessons and international laws touted and international understandings that came out of WWII will be rendered moot and pointless.
The first step in changing the nature of this growing conflagration is not surging troops or spitting at each other or dreaming up even more Macheavillian schemes to get at oil... It is admitting to ourselves that we elected or were snookered into accepting (really doesn't matter at this point) people in 2000 to lead us who were amoral, immoral and had not the best intentions of this nation at heart but instead were working from a scheme that was based on greed, self promotion and an idea that they would remake the world into an image that has proven to be anathema to most of us and the larger world community. We must, at a minimum, admit this and hold those individuals accountable for prosecution for what they have done.
To do anything else is a national copout of an immeasurable nature that the rest of the world will not forget, or ultimately forgive... Any more than anyone wanted to or did forgive the Nazies!
We all know who the principals are and somehow, someway we must insist on this course of action by whomever becomes our next president as a part of restoring this nations good name and reputation.. Otherwise, all that shit from WWII, all those nazi's we put to death or put in prison for the rest of their lives for the most part, or all that hunting down of nazis hiding out in South America and other locales by Iraelies and others for the better part of 30 years afterwords was just bullshit kneejerk revenge with no real justice at all at its heart...
And there is in fact no honor, no justice to be had in this world and we shouldn't expect any for ourselves from the rest of the world later, by allowing George W. Bush, and Dick Cheney and all the rest of them to just waltz away in 11 months to right wing lecture circuits and South American land holding hideouts and lifetime U.S. tax supported health and security benefits after setting the world on fire and running this nation into a cultural and financial ditch which will take a generation if ever to recover from... IF Bill (depends on what the definition of is is) Clinton can be impeached over consensual sex, literally cum stains on a dress, then by GOD these cretins need to be, at minimum, in prison for life if not hanging at the end of ropes for what they have done to ALL of us in America and world today!!!!
I believe and support the the conclusions offered by among others, posters 117, 129, 130 and 132. And I firmly believe the way out of the conclusions offered, the mess we find ourselves in, IS in the accountability for these crimes against humanity for the selfish vainglorius reasons that exist behind these acts OUR current leaders are responsible for... Sorry so long but this is truly a subject that doesn't lend itself to soundbites very well... JD
ihatethatpreppyfuck @ 136:
The first one at the beginning:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/9/10/10951/5080
But don't just stop there, there are MANY articles on this one. Search em up yourself.
Here's CNN with the CIA chief saying he not only knows where he is bit that he has other pressing things to attend to:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/06/20/goss.bin.laden/index.html
Here's the latest one, this last August even:
WARNING - This is a Fox News link (no way you can claim it's just liberal media dude)
There's three separate instances whre we willingly let him go.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,304306,00.html
i state for the record that i have no problem at all with McCain personally being left in iraq for 100 years.
McCain can go suck nuts. Him and his supporters need to rethink what they are doing.
We dont need a republican as president
we need to send his ass to iraq and ditch it there.
Japan? Are we at war. LOL
"John McCain: Let’s Stay In Iraq For “100 Years”!"
Statements like that are beyond outrageous, they're criminal. Americans have to stop thinking imperially, that crap needs to stop. This old fart is a favorite of the corporate media, you know the one that promotes imperial war against oil rich countries. The sooner he is out of the race the better. Huckster is the best choice to go against Obama, thanks Iowa.
why is mccain supposed to get such big support and a push from new hampshire independents if 2/3rd s of new hampshire want the troops home now? Ron Paul has the withdraw troops immediately stance, i think he will do better there than Iowa.
McCain is correct. His opinion is informed and unimpacted by polls.The same cannot be said for the multitude of people posting here. An unwavering position is ideal. At least you know what you are voting for/against. It is very fortunate none of the people on this site will ever live to know the consequences of the policies they propose.
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