Morning Joe: Obama Would Have Voted For Iraq Invasion If He Was In The Senate In 2002
By Logan Murphy Monday Mar 03, 2008 2:45pm
During the primary coverage on this morning's Morning Joe, host Joe Scarborough attacked Barack Obama on his stance on Iraq. The Scar says that Obama shouldn't be so high and mighty about speaking out against the invasion of Iraq in 2002 because it was easy for him to speak out against the war during a Democratic primary, and if he had been in the Senate at that time, Scarborough knows Obama would have voted for the authorization. Impressive psychic abilities from the guy who also knew Rove had nothing to do with outing Valerie Plame, despite it being in the court records.
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Brzezinski: "So you're questioning his motives when you say that."
Scarborough: "I'm not questioning his motives, Mika, you're not listening to me. I will tell you again, he spoke his heart, he said what he believed. He did not have the burden, the responsibility of voting on the most important vote in a very long time and I would bet you that if Barack Obama were in the Senate in 2002 he would have voted the way Joe Biden voted, Christopher Dodd voted, John Edwards voted, Hillary Clinton voted, the establishment of the Democratic Party voted."
Speaking of pulling facts out of thin air, Joe also gives John McCain partial credit for winning the Cold War and says that this is a winning issue for McCain to beat Obama.
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Scarborough is a lot of things......moron, bigot, liar, sycophant, misanthrope, egomaniac....but "psychic" he is not. Get a life, Joe, before this stint of making a jackass out of yourself on national television is over.
frist
This is why Scarborough makes the big bucks: He can guess what can never be proven.
What are you now Joe, a mystic? Another arrogant right wing ass crack licker who needs his fucking agenda driven fat butt kicked.
Joe is never for one to let facts get in the way of a good storyline. He's a lot like FOX News in that regards.
The same dipshit who voted for impeachment just before he got caught fucking around on his old lady. DEAD GIRL FOUND IN HIS OFFICE Please don't ever forget this ........
I would love to see what master political cartoonist Tom Toles would do with Joey Scab. Big giant head, thick mat of "hair", itty-bitty eyeballs... it would rock.
osiris @ 1:
Mel Morgan gone, Glenn Beck whining about "changes are coming" (he's gonna go!!!), As a psychic I say that Joe's gonna be gone.
Let's get some liberal voices on the air. Abrams has found that righteous liberal outrage sells so he's selling it. Joe is denying that fact, (global warming part deux?) so his days may be numbered. Can only hope.
Maybe so, Joe....Cuz in this article by another Joe (Amb. Joe Wilson) over at HuffPo there's this:
"In his book, The Audacity of Hope, published in 2006, he wrote, "...on the merits I didn't consider the case against war to be cut-and- dried." And, in 2006, he clearly said, "I'm always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn't have the benefit of US intelligence. And for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices."
Even Obama said "the benefit of US intelligence....it might have led to a different set of choices."
So yes. That's probably right.
NBC/MSNBC is such a fucking clownact. Keith Olbermann and his close associates are the sole source of credibility that this shameless neocon/GOPer propaganda organ has....and they are to far gone down the rabbit hole to realize that he's doing them a favor by working for them.
I wouldn't trust GE/NBC/MSNBC if they told me that the sky is very often blue in color.
And Joe . . . if you weren't a Republican you'd be human.
I think McCain should run on a platform of standing up to the Soviet Union.
Wow, some people can predict the future, but he can predict the past.
He needs to get himself a 900-number setup and make some bucks.
I was in Chicago's Federal Plaza in 2002 when Barack spoke against the war. Jesse jackson was also there. There were very few people at the rally - DFH (as they are known) and me and my two four year olds. Barack was a lone voice in the primary on Iraq 'cause everyone was still trying to ride Bush's 9/11 coattails - either for gain or out of fear. What the primary results showed - a large majority among a crowded field for Barack is that many ordinary Americans knew the war was wrong before fokls in Washington and New York and in the think tanks knew the war was wrong. That is why genuine democracy and particiaption in this election is the only thing that will save us from the lies and decet of our current imperial elite. Washington must feels like Vienna in 1914.
The truth is that Obama has made conflicting statements about what he would have done about the Iraq war, s, even telling the New York Times at one point, "There's not that much difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage."
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0407270351jul27,0,3085726...
Also in 2004: "When asked about Senators Kerry and Edwards’ votes on the Iraq war, Obama said, 'I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports,' Mr. Obama said. 'What would I have done? I don’t know. What I know is that from my vantage point the case was not made.'"
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9407E2DF153DF935A15754C0A...
His much-touted 2002 speech wasn't as anti-war as he'd like you to believe. In the speech, he never said "Do not attack Iraq", or "If I were in the Senate right now, I'd vote against any resolution that could in any way be construed as giving the President the authority to send troops to Iraq." That gave him deniability, in case the war went well.
http://www.barackobama.com/2002/10/02/remarks_of_illinois_state_sen.php
In 2003, when the war was popular, he took the speech off his website.
http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&...
His war funding voting record has been exactly the same as Clinton's.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_01/012953.php
Carolyn Kay
MakeThemAccountable.com
I think it's fair to say that Barack Obama gets way to much credit for a speech opposing the war in 2002 when he was campaigning in a heavily Democratic district in Ill.
That said I didn't vote for him because of a speech he gave in 2002. I voted for him because he's a fresh face and expect him to deliver on things like SCR, Science, RD from Iraq, Health Care, etc
i have felt that way before too....he certainly didn't mind funding the war.
look at his policy statements now
sure he says he will pull out the troops...so did the dems in 2006
is he talking about shrinking our INSANELY BLOATED defense budget...no
is he saying he will defund Israel unless they get out of the west bank...no
at least he says he will talk to people
Johnny2Bad @ 9:
This is a good point. As with Tweety, much as it pains me to agree with Scarborough on anything, he's probably right on this one.
What a Jackass! 'nuff said.
One of Obama's biggest problems is explaining to the American public why he befriended a terrorist named Bill Ayers who bombed the Pentagon. That is an extremely negative unsavory association for a black man named Hussein who aspires to be President of the United States.
jake @ 14:
I think it's fair to say that he probably would of voted the same way Joe Biden did, or the same way John Kerry did, or Clinton, or Dodd or the countless other Democrats who voted for this war.
Why? Because they were privy to cooked misinformation from this administration. That is not to fault the judgment of one Barack Obama or Hilary Clinton, that is to fault the administration for their blatant lies.
why is it hard to believe that maybe hes been making the right choices even before he got into the senate.
'If' is the biggest word in The Universe. IF My uncle was my sister,I'd be in counciling until I die. Fortunately ,in The Real World,that didn't occur.
Chris Gamble @ 20:
Yep.
Umm, I thought we'd stopped paying attention to Joe . . no?
Gee did his psychic powers tell him how Lori Klausutis ended up dead in his office? I'm sick of him and his magic sweater. He needs to shut his piehole.
Another "family values" guy who is about anything BUT family values.
JudyLou @ 13:
Joe "Miss Cleo" Scarborough?
As I asked last week....
Hey Joe.....
Do you take any coffee with your morning cup of absinthe?
Obambam has been misleading people about this vote, along with boosh.
The authorization was for boosh to present some findings and the evidence to support it before he attacked Iraq, presumably with missles not armies.
boosh used his initial request as the findings and presented no evidence. The evidence was vanishing under David Kay's surprise inspections.
boosh used the vote to spread the blame around for his illegal actions, particularly to anti-war democrats
Obambam has been using the same arguments to win himself an office.
I was against the war from the beginning to, but I wasn't in the Senate
And who'd vote for me for president?
Here's a view of how morning joe views citizens right to protest..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtXNKZh3Cqo
Typical Republican spin technique: fantasy based. How we got into Iraq.
Why wouldn't Obama have sided with Kennedy and Byrd and Sanders and a few others who were against the war? I really hope people don't take this sort of revisionism seriously.
Speaking of pulling facts out of thin air, Joe also gives John McCain partial credit for winning the Cold War and says that this is a winning issue for McCain to beat Obama.
Excellent! Yes, a winning issue, absolutely. That's just what everybody wants, the same old bullshit.
so McCain has both Joey the Scab and Tweety on his side. Sounds fair and balanced.........
If you look at the quotes from Illinois Senator Dick Durbin http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0108/7860.html
You will note that Obama was continually in touch with our (I am from Illinois) Senator during the debate over the war resolution and he stated that Obama was very much against this resolution. In fact Durbin was one of the 23 Senators who voted against the resolution, so I think Joe's supposition is completely off base. Not surprising, as this guy is way off the scale as biased and I hope that MSNBC is reconsidering his contract for this morning program.
But he wasn't in the Senate because of the dead intern in his office. OOOOOOOPPSS!!! That intern just broke!!!
John H. Farr @ 32:
Y'all ever hear the old Shel Silverstein song "Don't Rollerskate in the Buffalo Ring?"
Joe Scarborough is making a speculative, weak argument.
i hate agreeing with Joe, but Obama only had information available to a State Senator. If what was shown to Colin Powell convinced him (and by extension), I have no doubt whatsoever it would probably have convinced Barack. Basically, State Senator Obama made a lucky guess, that's not judgement.
abob @ 19:
I think one of your biggest problems is you're a bigot.
The TV 'pundits' will pull all kinds of 'ifs' out of thier assholes to not discuss
'Real' issues. Another corperate talking head taking orders from above.
Why do the let peope like Joe Scarborough appear, and not have someone from the "other side" challenge his mental non-sense?
Fair and balanced reporting means having opposing views; not two people who spew forth non-sense.
meant to and by extension Hillary...
I thought it was Roger Miller singing, "You Can't Rollerskate in a Buffalo Herd" ??
I think Joe Wilson has a good point. Obama wasn't in the Senate so it's easy to say "I wouldn't have voted for the authorization". If I were Obama I would not press this point too much.
In contrast, Scarborough's point rests firmly on the top of his head.
Chris Gamble @ 15:
To baselessly suggest that Obama made that speech in 2002 because he was in a "heavily Democratic district in Illinois" is just as stupid as Scarborough's shitty comments. Has it ever occurred to you that just like many at this site, Obama was honest against this criminal occupation from day one?
Everyday his eyes get beadier and beadier. Scar is a joke. I predict Mika quitting in about two months just to get away from Scarmurderer .
While this kind of "I KNOW what he would of done" prognostication is absurd, it isn't entirely without merit.
Obama severely damaged my trust in his ability during the second debate (August) when he stated as fact that "I don't think anyone believes Iran is not developing nuclear weapons".
Then the NIE comes out in December that tells us they halted their program in 2003. There were a LOT of questions even back then as to whether this was true, yet Obama believed it was "fact". So how might of he voted had he of been in the Senate in 2002? Who knows. But that wisdom he supposedly had back then failed him in 2007. :(
"Speaking of pulling facts out of thin air, Joe also gives John McCain partial credit for winning the Cold War and says that this is a winning issue for McCain to beat Obama. "
McCain partially responsible for ending the cold war? Why did he have voting rights in the Soviet Union where he voted for a surge in their efforts in Afgahnastan - which bankrupted and broke apart that country thus ending the cold war?
Joe is starting to really over-compensate, since he got Imus's radio gig - http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/03/scarborough-draws-a-line-in-the...
RayC @ 26:
LOL! That's right!!
abob @ 19:
Tell me sense I don't watch FOX news and I see you are a regular watcher, do you still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9/11 or has that garbage finally filtered through to you?
Joe Scarborough's argument is absurd. He's asking us to believe that someone born in 2008 should be held accoutnable for "what they would have done" had they been alive in the year 1776.
Based on their future (speculative) statements, can we pre-judge someone in 2008 over what they 'wold have" done had they taken another view in 1776?
Joe Scarborough's comment is convoluted. How does someone like him continue on the air without a serious review by a producer for purposes of firing him? How? Someone explain to me how Joe Scarborough can get to work in the morning when he appears to have a problem with critical thinking.
The idea that its not the fault of those who voted for the authorization to go into Iraq because they were misled by the administration is ridiculous because the entire idea that we can decide what regime must live and must die is the problem. Even if Saddam DID have WMD's they should not have voted for authorization to invade Iraq because its not our problem.(What was he going to do, have 500 iraqi's throw a missle at us?)
Our foreign policy of doing whatever the hell we want should be the issue- and its not new and not limited to republicans.
"Say it Ain't So" Joe's idiotic arguement is that Obama was free to speak his conscience because he wasn't voting and therefore didn't have to fear any political blowback. By extension that makes all those who did vote for the war against their conscience hypocrites, or what is known as cover your ass politics as usual. One thing that Obama does offer is the hope that he, as president, will stand by his conscience and change the politics as usual culture.
True, there's no way for Joe to know Obama would have voted for it -- but there's also no way to say for certain he wouldn't have.
Ron @ 39:
One of abob's problems is explaining His birth when mad scientists crossed a roach and pig.
Joe, I have another idea for you: How the South could have won the Civil War if George Bush had been President in 1861. And would World War II have been different if the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Get your Ouija board and go to work Joe, the world can use a good laugh.
rtbwa @ 48:
If you believe that Ronnie ended the cold war then he may have a point. McCain was one of Rayguns biggest boot lickers.
abob , just another glue sniffer.
It's hard to say how Barack Obama would've voted if he were in the U.S. Senate then. Keep in mind that Dick Durbin, the senior U.S. Senator from Illinois, voted against the war authorization. Then again, he was serving on a committee that had access to the NIE, so he could see firsthand how thin it was.
I suspect Obama would've voted nay. If anything, it shows how intellectually honest he is that he's willing to cede that he can't say 100% for sure how he would have voted -- given that it's a hypothetical situation. Most candidates would say something like, "I spoke against the war, so I certainly wouldn't have voted for it; all hail my foresight", especially now that the war is so unpopular.
Maybe he's equivocating in his book to look more "centrist", but I think it's more a matter of him admitting that you can't speak definitively about hypotheticals, especially ones that will never occur.
The way I see it is that I was just a dumb sophmore in High School when the invasion happened, and I think I was smoking a lot of pot too, but I'll never forget turning on the TV and seeing the build up outside Iraq. Even as a barely informed high school student (although I was a good student and in all the advanced classes where we actually talked about current events) all I could keep thinking is "Why in the fuck are we going into Iraq?"
abob @ 19:
Dude, you never ever make any sense with your comments. Is this a cry for help? I pray that you get it before you hurt somebody or yourself.
Joe Scarborough is a douchbag. But he's probably right. Do not underestimate the willingness of elected Democrats to cave in to the Bush political machine.
Jake @ 60:
So you were a doper and in all the advanced classes? Don't even get me started on the state of our educational system! ;)
WELL WE KNOW THAT IS PROBABLY TRUE. Anybody that said the BELIEVED bush about nuclear weapons in Iran and wanted to bomb them, would surely have voted to let bush search for the WMD like the rest of the senate. And we know he wanted to bomb Iran...he gave an exclusive interview to his hometown newspaper, the Chicago Trib. All you have to do is search the archives for the interview...cause the viagra poppers will say he didn't...but pop one more viagra and go search.
Jake @ 60:
All I could think of is, "This is all about oil."
Hey look. Joe's an asshole, and I'm an Obama supporter, but I think he's right on this one. At that time and under those circumstances, I believe that no senator or congress person would have had the guts, if they knew they were going to run for president, to vote against the authorization.
Scaborough should stick to mindlessly prattling on about his time in Congress and jamming with Huckleberry ; they're both half-assed amateur players and GOP pieces of shit so they're perfect together.........
I could see it happening because so many voted out of fear and cowardice of being branded anti-patriotic. BUT it didn't happen so stfu Joe.
Marge @ 64:
If I pop a Viagra, I may have to start trying to find you.
bmw 528 @ 56:
I like the idea of the wee-G board for mourning joe. And also a surfboard session.
PFELD @ 66:
And those people are completely unfit for the office of the president. Everyone who had even the slightest bit of common sense knew that it was unjust, arrogant, and a bizarre idea not to invade Iraq regardless of what the administration made up- why couldn't the congress?
this is joe "murderer" scumbag with an opinion.
BWA HA HA HA HA !!!
No credibility shortage here! ROTFLMBBAO!!!
Shoaib Qadri @ 71:
I mean a bizarre idea TO invade Iraq*
McCain stood beside Reagan and helped win the Cold War?
Wow.
Reagan was a piece of shit who should have been hanged for his war crimes.
Not to mention the fact that we didn't bring the Soviets down, they dug their own grave from the start. We only served as a mild catalyst.
McCain is worthless, he has made ZERO accomplishments!
Joementum @ 54:
Sure there is
Scaborough is a GOP dipshit who tried to have a popular sitting president impeached based upon his dalliances with a woman other than his wife ; something the hierarchy of the entire GOP has been doing for years.
Scaborough's stupidity and ability to look the other way because it was politically expedient proves he isn't worth a cup of spit ; and his opinions are even more worthless..........
Marge,
What is it with you and viagra? Are you a Pfizer rep?
In 2002 Obama was making statements against giving Bush authority to use force.
23 Senators voted against the bill.
Scarborough is talking out his Republican ass.
Joementum @ 54:
True, either way. But even though Obama has written that senate intelligence briefings "might have led to a different set of choices." He loudly touts his "anti-war stance" as proof of better judgement.
We'll never know what would have happened.
Anyway, another question is this: If the AUMF hadn't passed, would that have stopped the NeoCons from invading? Don't think so.
abob @ 19:
Wow, Jethro!!!!!!! D'ja thought that there idear up on yer own?
Ron @ 69:
Allan Roth @ 34:
Why did DICK Durban appear on Faux News? He's not playing by the Dem rules.
Filthy Harry @ 80:
David Hawes @ 55:
A pig crossed with a roach gets the munchies for some bacon.
One thing "I" know: Scarborough murdered Lori Klausutis. How about that revelation, Joe?
Rucka @ 38:
What?!? I had none of the information the Senate or Powell or anyone else remotely connected to this affair had and I got it right. Seems the more information available the quicker those who had it were to vote in favor of this war. Does that say something about the data? It does to me and that is that everyone was lied to. I honestly don't think this is that much of an issue. Why should we hold those who voted in favor of war accountable when all, and I mean all, the information they were given was false.
Rucka @ 42:
Short haired Hillary uses extensions
On what
Her pubes?
StirFry @ 46:
I watch as much of Joe as I can take in the morning. He bullies and tries to intimidate Mika when she disagrees with his right wing BS. Scarborough looks funny with those beady eyes and thin lips on that three gallon head.
Left&Left @ 45:
He played into a local election, is that so hard to see?
Yes folks, Obama while a great man, is still a politician.
ysbaddaden @ 83:
UmmHmmm. And both live in perpetual shit.
Johnny2Bad @ 9:
Wilson has been a close friend and ally of the Clintons for years, including working for Bill, so I would take anything he says as biased and with a grain of salt.
Dr. Acula @ 81:
I can't imagine anyone appearing on Faux News, to be perfectly honest. Other than someone lacking personal integrity, anyone with gravitas realizes that they are judged by the company they keep. In this case, even appearing on a fake news program is degrading. I don't know what Durbin was thinking if he did appear. I wouldn't know - I never turn the dial to Foch Snooze. There's enough comedy out there right now than to watch some pathetic group of menopausal men flexing their testosteroneless muscles.
Blue Lensman @ 43:
That's the right song title but now I'm not sure about the singer.
Shel did sing one of my favorites, "I Got Stoned and I Missed It," and "Freaker's Ball.'
They were my favorite when I was about 10.
But my favorite album since I was 7 was "Their Satanic Majesty's Request."
Joe, don't look now, but there's a dead woman in your office.
"if Barack Obama were in the Senate in 2002 he would have voted the way Joe Biden voted, Christopher Dodd voted, John Edwards voted, Hillary Clinton voted, the establishment of the Democratic Party voted.“
I'm sorry, I don't agree with Joe on pretty much anything but I do on this.
leftminded @ 85:
Because regardless of the information they were given, they should know better than to invade a third-world country with a very weak army just because they might have some weapons. The US has no right to invade other countries.
I hear some people say its "understandable" why some may vote in favor of the authorization to go into Iraq because of the fear of being labeled "unpatriotic"....ABSOLUTELY NO its not understandable. War is a serious issue, a childish and selfish reason such as the fear of being called names is not acceptable.
and maybe that's not right. these fucking repugs are time-travelling telepaths?
please give me a fucking break. Obama did what he did and said what he said and wrote what he wrote.
nothing has changed.
obama has been proven correct and prophetic.
U're right
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUvuCaztUbY
ysbaddaden @ 92:
It was definitely Roger Miller (the country-ish singer, not the guy from Mission of Burma). I had his Greatest Hits record when I was a kid. "King of the Road," "Dang Me," and, of course, "You Can't Rollerskate in a Buffalo Herd."
abob @ 19:
Don't worry, bigot! No one and nothing can touch Obama. His hands are clean - unlike those of Clinton's (blood of Iraq war vote) and Johnny Appleseed McCrazy (war cheerleader).
"Can't touch this!"....Obama's new theme song.....ba...da...da...da....
Chris Gamble @ 20:
They didn't need to lie. The Dems knew as well as everyone else that it was all bullshit. Hell, the entire world knew it, and we showed our disgust by protesting. By the MILLIONS. Nobody listened. EVERY Dem that voted giving Shrub the go ahead, knew it was all bullshit. They can twist and turn and point fingers all they want. ALL of them have blood on their hands.
Johnny2Bad @ 78:
Agreed. They we're going with or without the political cover provided by the cowardly Dems.
Marge @ 64:
What's the difference between angry women who bash men and angry men who bash women?
Nothing. They are both sexist.
Congratulations, Marge, you have become the person you despise.
Hey Joe! STFU!!
How would you know what anyone would have said or done? You can barely keep it together for yourself.
This is one known way to vet the truth on an issue. If Joe Scarface says it, you KNOW it's a bold-faced lie. Next!
But Obama himself has said that he doesn't know how he would have voted if he had been in the Senate at the time. And in 2004 he said he agreed with the president on the war.
Shoaib Qadri @ 95:
Some weapons?
If the intelligence was correct and SH had Nuclear Weapons the war would of been justified. Are you seriously arguing this point?
giemeabreak @ 94:
obviously the facts won't sway your opinion.
Marge @ 64:
You know, you can get a sex change now, if you have that much penis envy. Can I go out on a limb and say you are a divorced bitter woman?
HRC taliking points being spouted by Joe. As if were any remaining doubt...
I particularly enjoy the talking point re: Obama's comments that if he had HRC's information, he might have voted for the war. Are the Hillary supporters trying to sway the ridiculously uninformed? On a political blog no less?
HRC had an NIE that provided strong rationale for voting against the war. So strong, in fact, that Hillary had to cover her blatant warmongering by claiming not to have even read it. The more she loses, the more shameless this whole thing gets.
Chris Gamble @ 106:
Absolutely. So what if Saddam Huseein has nuclear weapons, many other countries do as well, why don't we go invade Pakistan, Israel, India, Britain as well? Is it because Saddam was aggresive towards other countries? The nuclear powers I just listed are all guilty of aggresive invasions and murder as well.
Complete arrogance that we can have nuclear weapons and invade whoever we want- but if someone else dares to even DREAM of nuclear power(such as Iran), they deserve to be bombed and massacred.
Scarborough should use some of those psychic abilities to figure out just how that aide of his died in his office.
fiver @ 109:
I agree. And no matter what colour anybody tries to paint her pantsuits, she's as Republican as Joe Lieberman. Anybody that endorses their possible opponent over a member of their own party? Well, 'nuff said. Any Dem that votes for her, deserves having another Bush.
Chris Gamble @ 106:
When did Iraq set off bombs or attack the US, whether they had weapons or not? They didn't. Not for lack of trying on the part of Bill Clinton and Bush 1 and 2 though. I have to say I have great respect now for Iraq. After years of getting shock and awed, invaded twice, and burying their children, they have never once sent "suicide bombers" or "terrorists" onto US soil. If I was their leader, I would have long ago. Bomb my capital, I blow up yours any way I can.
Scott @ 111:
Hahaha +1
Maybe him and OJ can find the real killers, Bin Laden, and those WMD's.
I agree with Scarborough on this. Obama had a chance to draw a line in the cement with the neo-cons last fall when the Kyl Lieberman amendment came up for a vote. This is the amendment that Senator Webb called "tantamount to declaring war on Iran" and "Vice President Cheney's fondest pipe dream. Senator Clinton voted for it (rolling over to the neo-cons once again_ and then Obama sat on the fence when he could have really demonstrated that he will not stand for more aggression towards another nation based on unsubstantiated claims.
Watch this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npzN3dZR6JM
Why clinton voted for the Kyl Lieberman amendment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_6CB-3qj8Y
Senator Webb on the Kyl Lieberman amendment
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/09/25/sen-webb-blasts-liebermankyl-am...
This vote could still come back to haunt Hillary. The radical "cakewalk in Iraq" zealots have not given up on attacking Iran.
Joe is right about this one, he would have been in the yes column like all the other dems, why , because they have no principals, they were all worried about running for POTUS,
Wow - Joe better watch out. He may get fired for not towing the MSNBC party line that St. Obama can do no wrong.
sdv @ 105:
I'm pretty sure he meant he'd vote 'present'.
chris @ 116:
Who knows? He might have stripped naked and ran around CONgress screaming "The terrists are coming! The terrists are coming!" Far fetched? No more than guessing how someone might have voted.
abarts @ 118:
Guess that would be better than not showing up for FISA votes, eh Hillary?
Scarborough's probably right. Going after Saddam was the popular position to take at the time. It's easy to pretend otherwise now, but it's the truth.
It's totally bogus for Obama to go after Hillary for supporting the war 5 years ago. His position is bullshit - he wants to use the prestige of his 1/2 term in the Senate to show what a leader he is, and at the same time criticize Senators who cast a vote he very conveniently wasn't there to participate in. He's pretending to drive the anti-war bus he just hopped on at the last stop.
Slick.
What we actually know.
Chance of Hillary voting to authorize Iraq war = 100% because it happened.
Chance of Barack voting to authorize Iraq war = ? but in probability theory a 100% chance is never assigned to something (if I'm remembering this correctly).
I'm with Joe on this one.
Look at Obama's and Hillary's voting records - Identical except for a few minor votes.
Obama approached Hillary as a freshman national Senator for advice.
Obama's platform is nearly identical to Hillary's.
Obama was in a major democratic stronghold in the Midwest, representing a liberal district as state Senator...what else is he going to say? He wasn't running against a Republican.
Oh, and then there's these comments from Sen. Obama himself:
"So it’s not clear to me what differences we’ve had since I’ve been in the Senate. I think what people might point to is our different assessments of the war in Iraq, although I’m always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn’t have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And, for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate, she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test." [The New Yorker, 10/30/06]
"Not only was the idea of an invasion increasingly popular, but on the merits I didn't consider the case against war to be cut-and- dried." ["Audacity of Hope," 2006, p. 294]"
I've made these points 6 months ago.
THIS is what Bill Clinton was referring to as a "fairy tale." If people would stop being bushbot-like supporters of Obama, and been fair to the Clinton's they'd have realized this...by actually LISTENING and READING Bill's comments.
Obama cast this comment as having 'racial undertones' via a whisper campaign, and his "4 point leaked memo".
Anyone who seriously tries to tell me that Obama would suddenly veer from his identical path in voting against the Iraq Resolution I laugh at you...and if I were Hillary during the debate when Obama questioned her vote, I would have looked at him and asked:
"Where you there Obama?"
When he questioned her judgement, I would have thrown it back and asked if associating as a "close personal friend" like Rezko for "17 years" was exercising good judgement.
I would have asked him if accepting 100,000 raised for him by Alexi Giannoulias was "good judgement."
If you don't know who he, let's just say Chicagoans do.
osiris @ 91:
I don't watch Faux -- I saw Dick in a screen-capture.
ConcernedCanuck @ 120:
Nah - probably the same as not showing up for the Kyl-Lieberman bill and then criticizing your opponent for actually taking a stand.
Joe if you're out there reading this "Shut the F*ck Up" you dumb overpayed a$$hat!!
You are clueless!
fiver @ 109:
How's this for "politically informed," seeing as how the media is not even touching this fact?
http://wizbangpolitics.com/2008/02/26/rasmussen-obamas-negatives-rising.php
Yea, uh-huh.
JB @ 125:
Amen.
Chris Gamble @ 88:
Hey asswipe, I'm from Chicago and I was at 140 s Dearborn plaza when Obama gave that speech. Trust me, not everyone in that crowd was anti-war. At that time Americans(like you) were overwhelmingly for this sorry war. You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Just like the Repubs, your Obama hatred makes you just say anything, no matter how dumb. Obama was right on this issue so give him credit. You and Hillary were wrong, so shut up and take it!
Destardi @ 123:
I don't think it would be in the Clinton's best interest to question anyone about their friends and supporters. Know what's funny though? Bill is getting paid 12 mill for his memoirs and Hillary 8 mill. How many pages does it take to write "I can't recall" and "it depends on what your definition of is, is"???
"So it’s not clear to me what differences we’ve had since I’ve been in the Senate. I think what people might point to is our different assessments of the war in Iraq, although I’m always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought it was such a bad idea was that I didn’t have the benefit of U.S. intelligence. And, for those who did, it might have led to a different set of choices. So that might be something that sort of is obvious. But, again, we were in different circumstances at that time: I was running for the U.S. Senate, she had to take a vote, and casting votes is always a difficult test.” [The New Yorker, 10/30/06]
Obama
“Not only was the idea of an invasion increasingly popular, but on the merits I didn’t consider the case against war to be cut-and- dried.” [”Audacity of Hope,” 2006, p. 294]”
Obama
ConcernedCanuck @ 130:
If you could write a memoir after being a middle class American who went on to become President without having a silver-spoon in your mouth from the day you were born, and could write books for money, you wouldn't do it?
What do you expect after investigation after investigation from the goddamn republicans blowing tax money out the window, and all they came back with was a blue dress?
And why the F*CK am I pointing these things out to a supposed "progressive"?
Destardi @ 123:
Pretty weak, pal. Thanks so little for your opinionated pontificating.
Destardi @ 127:
Very politically informed - and I believe it. Hillary voters will line up in droves to vote for McCain. The candidates Middle East policies are identical, and I'm sure McCain can play corporate whore nearly as well as Hillary. Granted, he doesn't have her "experience" in this regard, but how much skill does it really take to kiss corporate ass.
sorry: candidates' not candidates
I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president.
Hillary Clinton
Many of you are well enough off that the tax cuts may have helped you. We're saying that for America to get back on track, we're probably going to cut that short and not give it to you. We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.
Hillary Clinton
Every nation has to either be with us, or against us. Those who harbor terrorists, or who finance them, are going to pay a price.
Hillary Clinton
Actually Joe is right.....It is my belief that BO would have voted for the war resolution as well but it has nothing to do with information that was being fed to the congress by Bush...It has to do with the belief that if Bo was considering running for the PResidency as was Hillary as was Bidden etc it is a simple calculus especially considering that the 2004 elelction was just around the corner. So think about it its 2003 the midterm election is coming up Bush and Co. have put you in a corner regarding defending the country...If you don't vote for this you must hate America or wish for Ameirca to be attacked agaisn. Tough to argue agaisnt especially in 2003. Hillary did the claculus as a possible presidnetial contender if you vote aginst this you may loose your Senate seat and thus your high profile entree to the Presidency including fund raising opportunities. If you vote for it you ass is covered and if it goes wrong you can alwasy say I did what I thought was best based on the Information I had. If Obama was in the same nind set i.e. considering running for Presidnet he would hav e most likely gone the same way...in my humble opinion...or in the words of BOB whe ya got nothin (no Senate seat) you got nothin to loose....and by the way there was a lot of wiggle room that BO gave himself when ever he spoke about this.
Left&Left @ 129:
When one needs to sling insults to make their point they know have already lost. For your information I voted for Obama on Feb 5th and have not made that a secret in my postings on this blog. That said I am a Democrat first and not dumbfounded enough to not see he was playing into an election. It's okay, he's a politician and I believe he's sincere that he will do what he's campaigning on now but that's beside the point.
If he was privy to the same information other great Dems like Edwards, Biden, and Kerry had been, he would of voted that way. While not a fact, I think it's fair to say that. Hell, he HIMSELF has alluded to that MANY TIMES.
Stop walking around in the dark and light up a match.
One thing is clear.
Progressives are as susceptible to manipulation from the crappy US media as die-hard shrubphiles.
Good luck with that.
Destardi @ 133:
There's that Clinton supporter anger. I merely pointed out that it wouldn't be in the best interest of the Clintons to go into that "look who that candidates questionable supporters are"........say have they started that lawsuit against them in California yet regarding that Stan Lee deal?
Oh God, I don't take anything "concernedcanuck" says seriously ever.
You're as capable of fairness as a shrub lover.
http://wizbangpolitics.com/2008/02/26/rasmussen-obamas-negatives-rising.php
Stephen @ 138:
This is essentially exactly what I believe.
I just didn't say it like you did...Thank you!
Who's a run of the mill politician? BO is a run of the mill politician!
Just like all the rest.
Big f...... deal. So who knows with certainty how Obama would have voted if he had been in the Senate at that time? Pure speculation
by every poster on this thread, irrespective if you think Joe S. is right or wrong.
Destardi @ 142:
One. Trick. Pony.
Joe,
23 Senators did not vote for the war (all or most of them were Democrats, so it is possible he would not have voted for it either). What I don't understand is how any of them could have voted for the war without reading the 90 page report which had some caveats and concerns. Only six Senators read that report (Dick Durbin was one), but not Hillary, McCain, or Edwards
Destardi @ 142:
Realism. It's politics. All of them have dirt. You can't elevate one person's dirt over anothers. Especially if your dirt makes theirs look like a tiny dust ball.
I love how Obama supporters are attacking one of their own.
They're freaking identical in almost every way, yet as it's been commented, Obama wants the Presidency so bad he'll bash an ex-President.
Ethics?
Sure.
ChrisGamble@139 Say whatever you want, but you are not in Obama's head so you don't know what he thinks anymore than I know what you think(or care).
Barack Obama is part of the establishment.
change...ya got change?
(Remember Bill Clinton's 1992 campaign where he couldn't stop uttering the word change?)
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