Florida House Says "No" to Primary Re-Vote
Marc Ambinder has the scoop:
"We are committed to working with the DNC, the Florida State Democratic party, our Democratic leaders in Florida, and our two candidates to reach an expedited solution that ensures our 210 delegates are seated. Our House delegation is opposed to a mail-in campaign or any redo of any kind.”
I thought the mail-in idea was worth considering. Oregon's similar system is one of the safest and most efficient in the nation. They did have a decade (instead of a few months) to perfect it, though. Dean really needs to start flexing his muscle and enforcing the agreed-upon rules. If the states refuse a re-vote, split them down the middle.
Kos gets it right:
Here's how you seat them -- you cut them in half for breaking the rules, like the GOP did, and then you assign them 50/50 each to Obama and Clinton. Presto! Issue solved.
Would work with Michigan, too.
States and future candidates need to know that the rules will be enforced. If they are not, there's no way we can enforce a new calendar without New Hampshire and Iowa at the head. They'll break the rules, and candidates fearful that the results will count will have no choice but to campaign, defeating the purpose of the new calendar.
What's the point of cutting them in half if you're just going to split them 50/50 anyway?
There's already been discussions a Solomon type solution about splitting the delegates and awarding to each half.
However, expect controversy over equal number over proportional, over who actually won them in the first place.
This would require at least half the delegates to vote against their voters intentions.
Oh man
But if they ultimately end up ‘Re-Doing’ Florida, Why Not Also ‘2000′?
Don Davis @ 4:
They'll probably be a remake of 3000
It really pissed off the Persians.
Why don't we rotate the states that go first each election? Who says is always has to be Iowa and New Hampshire/ Maybe have five states that go first on hte same date.
This crap about NH and Iowa going first each time is long overdue for major change.
If Florida was swept off to sea, would anyone really notice (or care)?
Yes, split them in half... to heck with the actual VOTERS in Florida. The people in charge there made a decision without consulting them, so to heck with the voters! They should have risen up en-masse and destroyed their evil overlords and held their primary on schedule, even if they have no actual say in the process!
Disenfranchise them! Poke them with sharp sticks! Who are they to think THEY matter? They're just innocent VOTERS, to heck with them! It's not like they matter or count! Then on to those evil Michiganders! We know what they're up to! Disenfranchise them too! Their rights don't count either!
(RE: typos. Man, my typing fingers have a mind of their own today.)
I disagree with Kos. The Democratic voters of Michigan and Florida should have their say. It's not their fault that their state representation screwed up. Particularly this is the case in Florida where the Dems are in the minority in both state legislatures and the governor is a repug. By cutting the delegates in half, you effectively take Florida's Democratic voters out of the candidate selection process.
You want to remove Florida from the them and expect them to show up in November? Fat chance.
Re-vote Michigan and Florida and not by a mail in or caucus either.
I think the dlegates should be split in half. If anyone believes that voter fraud won't go on during a mail in revote then they are living on Pluto. The clintons and the republicans would love nothing more than to steal this election from Obama. You can tell by the party insiders who have come forward with a plan to raise money and pay for the election. As if these politicians don't have trouble in their own respective backyards. Crist? A Republican who wants to see Clinton get the nod so that McCain can wipe the floor with her.
One thing I firmly believe is that Obama is only responding to Clinton in his bid to become president. He doesn't want to tear the party apart. He is the stand up candidate. I don't know what the hell kind of candidate Clinton is. I think she's a neo-con personally. When this democratic primary contest is settled and I hope very soon and Obama wins it all Obama will fight fire with fire.
Matt Hussein in Texas @ 9:
Fill up your cup with more joe.
uhhh, maybe you haven't heard? The freaking governor of New York stepped down. If this guy was a republican, you guys would tripping over yourselves to comment with lurid detail and disgust. show some pine and call it what it is regardless of party: sad and disgusting. or..delete my comments.......
Ryan @ 1:
Because it punishes them, cut them in half and they have less delegates and less super-delgates. If you just split them 50/50, there is no real punishment.
Like it matters. Obama is the next President - regardless of what racist statements the Clinton campaign continues to endorse.
let the widdle baby have her FL MI dewagates, even with them she's still 100 behind, unless she wins 100 delegates in pennsylvainia, then she's out.
What's the use of having punishments if you cannot enforce them?
Splitting them 50/50 will seat them(delegates), but not award them for breaking the rules.
Clinton should be ashamed of herself...but we know she is not.
PrincetonPDX @ 14:
Hedging your bet eh?
[Deleted. Turn off the Caps lock key-Sitemonitor]
nonbeliever @ 10:
You speak as if the race for a candidate is a dead tie. It's not, as much as the MSM would like you to believe. Obama crushes Hilalry wioth big wins. She squeaks by win narrow margins. Look at Nevada for crying out loud. Great she got the popular vote, but he got more delegates than she did.
Florida and Michigan WILL show up in November. Why? Because they knew their votes weren't going to count. That is why only 1.7 million Floridians voted. That may sound like a big number, but for Florida it is a tiny turnout.
Take half of them away, split them in half. The only fair way to do it. A re-vote is going to open up the pandora box again (2000 anyone?). If they re-vote and Hillary loses, she come up with another excuse, if Obama loses they will cry foul as well.
L.A. Confidential @ 17:
I don't uderstand how the KOS thing is a solution. A tie is just like zero,zero so then why seat them. A the DNC and Florida Democrats should sue Florida Repugs for interfering with democratic process.
Dr. Hussien Matt @ 7:
Umm. yes I would...livin here and all...that would kinda suck.
Though, I've said the same about Cali.
I think their voices should be heard and it was heard. We know they voted. We know how many voted. We also knew they violated the law. The people of Florida had a choice. Make sure they had a paper trail even if that meant that they would move the primaries up or keep the primaries in place and no paper trail in the GE. They chose to move the primaries up and have a paper trail in the GE. The DNC told them not to move the process up and like bad children they decided to thumb their noses at the DNC as if rules don't matter. Everyone agreed to the rules on all sides. Now they want a do over?
That's like a bank robber robbing a bank then promising to bring the money back if the law won't put him in jail. You think that's not gonna happen. They broke the rules and now they don't want to pay the price for violating the rules. What good are rules if you break them.
No do overs. Split the delegates evenly like the GOP and seat them.
At first I was really pissed at the FL representatives that allowed the republicans to screw us up, then I found out they voted with them. Then I found out that the republicans basically blackmailed the dems into voting to move the primary date up by throwing the much needed paper vote on the back of the bill.
So the DNC should pay for a revote since it's not the people's fault and if the bill needs to be split it should be the governement of FL and the DNC paying, thanks for screwing the voters again Charlie Christ...you knew this would happen.
As for Mich, they must have a revote, all the canidates were not even on the ballot, that's not an election, sorry Hillary you can't jump on that!
Unfortunately, the voters have to live by the rules of the party they choose to affiliate with. Rules are rules. Stick to them or democrats will be seen as just as corrupt as republicans.
If Florida's democratic voters don't like it, they can be more careful about how they vote in the future, especially related to who's controlling the party in their state. That's the way the republic we live in works, baby!
PrincetonPDX @ 14:
lets please not get that shit started up.
You got it C & R. Clinton and her republican freinds cannot change the rules at half-time because they're losing.
Split the delegates 50-50. Let clinton drop out. And let's call it a primary season. Turn the force on the real opponent. Or is clinton a republican and we're already fighting the gop?
Dean needs to start flexing his muscle and tell Florida tough shit. You don't break the rules. Sorry.
EliteLemming @ 21:
They can't. They voted for it. The Republicans slipped the primary move into a bill requiring a paper ballot for every electronic vote. If the Democrats voted against the bill, then there would be no paper ballot for a electronic vote. It's not like the Democrats didn't know what they were voting for.
Nice of kos to take votes away from Hillary and award the votes to his candidate.
He doesn't live in either state, and he was telling Democrats in Michigan to vote for a GOP candidate.
vincie @ 18:
Fairness is sticking by the rules. It was soo funny seeing Hillary claiming victory over Florida....I mean sad and pitiful. The Obama ads were part of a national distribution and was approved by the DNC. Once again, he was playing by the rules. Is it sooo hard to play by the rules????
Palooka @ 28:
I' not to empathetic for Michigan, but I do think Florida got screwed by the GOP in thier state on this matter.
biff @ 13:
Excuse me, take it down a notch or take it walking. I know it's hard for you to believe, Biff, but there are other more relevant things to discuss right now than letting you get off on some sex scandal. We are processing the video of Spitzer's resignation (a story we've covered before if you were actually smart enough to scroll down the page a bit) and it will be posted when we are good and ready, not when we get some snotty off topic and poorly spelled post tries to challenge us.
Now either comment on topic or leave.
biff @ 13:
Call this conservative crybaby a waaahmbulance. You might notice that Spitzer is not the topic of this thread. I'm sure there were plenty of jokes in the rest of the Spitzer threads. Get a grip.
The voters need to return to the polls. At the time of the vote, voters were not as familiar with Obama since he did not campaign there at all, and time has passed giving him momentum. Clinton had name recognition and already works well with Latinos. But much has changed since that vote, and the odds were severely stacked in Clinton's favor at the time. To seat them or even seat them 50/50 based on the existing vote is incredibly unfair. Revote or don't be included.
PrincetonPDX @ 29:
That some sneaky shit, but there had to be a way to fight it.
EliteLemming @ 26:
EliteLemming @ 36:
I agree
First of all this race isn't tied, it's not close. Each side is presenting their case but the facts are in the math. Math can not be nuanced. Obama is ahead in every category. Period.
The media is spinning everyone and some of you are falling for it. They want this thing to go on. It doesn't matter what she does, the will of the voters are in play and there is clear evidence that Obama has won.
You think if obama had been down 12 states, he'd still be in this race? No! The MSM wants you to believe that she is still viable. She can't win unless she convinces the SD to overturn the will of the people. and what would that look like? Republicans. 2000. 2004. If Dems want this then they look just like Republicans.
Off topic, but awesome. Boing Boing's Joel Johnson gets subversive on AT&T's own show, "The Hugh Thompson Show", criticizing AT&T's apparent intention to "filter" user content that passes through their servers. Enjoy!
Here's how you enforce party discipline without disenfranchising the voters. If a state breaks primary rules, you: 1) Unseat that state's super delegates and 2) allow the election or caucus to continue.
How come they can't vote on the phone sans American Idol? We have the technologie.
The whole situation just sucks. For Florida, you have Democrates who sacrificed their primary for paper a trail so we don't get another election decided by the supreme court like in 2000 or questionable the results of Ohio in 2004. I have no idea what Michigan was thinking. 50/50 sounds fair if your an Obama supporter since it would almost guarantee him the nomination. For Hillary to stand there and claim the delegates of an invalid primary is just her wanting to bend the rules in her favor and get the nomination at any cost.
Howard Dean will have to do his job and anger one group if there isn't another re-vote and impose a solution.
Why cant we all just come together?
I hope the voters of those states remember who changed the rules on them when it does come their time to vote again (can anyone say Republican governors?).
The Kos thing is a viable solution in that:
A. Cutting the dels in half reduces the number of people who get to go to the convention. Trust me, for delegates, thats what the whole thing is about. Thats the punishment part.
B. Splitting the dels 50/50 between Obama and HRC isn't a perfect solution but its the best you can do without re-doing the primary AND the 50/50 split makes the delegates pointless, further punishment.
Regardless of where you stand on who gets to have a primary first, I hope you'd agree that there at least needs to be some control to keep them from starting earlier and earlier as they leapfrog each other trying to be first.
Solution @ 41:
That's like getting sent to your room for punishment and having a tv, cell phone, Playstation, Wii System, drum set and ordering from Papa Johns. Gimme a break.
Only thing is, it's the voters of Florida and Michigan who get screwed. Don't they get a voice? Love the way Kos and others disenfranchise them. How self-righteous and hypocritical can he get?
Clinton says that the delegates don't matter but she is trying to do an end around to get Obama's delegates and or close the gap by using FL and Mi to get them. So if they don't matter then why does FL and Mi matter?
The delegates matter because Obama has more of them.
Funny. I don't remember getting a call from any of the house members asking me my take on this.
kep306 @ 43:
Agreed. So what should happen is we go back to the origenal agreement. Sorry but you guys lost your seats, we'll see you in a couple of years.
Matt Hussein in Texas @ 6:
Why can't we have 1 day a year when all the States have a Primary and why are we paying these guys to represent us when they're too busy campaigning? How many of us could take that much time away from our jobs while trying to get another?
I'm sick @ hearing all this disenfranchise talk.
What about the voters in MI & Fla who stayed home, believing the DNC's statement that the early primaries would not count.
Do it over.
Filthy Harry @ 45:
Thats the best arguement for the current solution, don't sit them.
shaker o salt @ 47:
I guess they should contact their lawmakers in those states and demand it then. Honestly, they would not be screwed if they would stand up and do what needs to be done.
Who really gets screwed if they get seated as is? Everyone else who played by the rules is who. Edwards and Obama played by the rules and shouldn't be punished for it.
Interesting how many liberals here hate Florida? Really open minded individuals with cronic cranial rectilitis I think!
As a voter and long term Democratic resident of Florida, I feel the DNC and the DLC should shut up and go away. They "Abandoned" us in the 2000 election when hoods were intimidating folks at the polls, and the judges, and look what we got! BUSH$CO and the murderers of underestimated and hidden civilian death counts. The destruction of our Constitution and the Rule of Law in America! They should work as hard to end fascism in America as they are to disqualify voters.
So now they want to "punish" Florida Dems for stepping out of line? Do they know how that vote came about? It was tied to a full accountability with audit trail laws that got past with full support on both sides!
IMHO they are just as bad as the rest of the criminals ruining America on a daily basis!
IgnoranceIsNotBliss @ 49:
Me either...they never write, they never call...
one thing is for certain:
the GOP absolutely LUVS this....
it is a friggin' mess, and i don't think there is going to be a solution that makes all sides happy, or even content. chairman dean is going to be the bad guy no matter what decision is made. retrospectively, this scenario should have been discussed and dealt with way back when they decided to "punish" MI and FL, before any primary/caucus votes were ever cast.
EliteLemming @ 21:
I don't think it is a bad solution. The Clinton camp wants both primaries to stand as is and is afraid of a revote. I don't know about Florida, but I think Obama would blow her out in Michigan. Kos is addressing the fact that many voters in Florida and Michigan will feel disenfranchised if their delegates are not seated at the convention. A wash would seat them, but it would not give an unfair advantage to Clinton who wants to break the rules she agreed to.
I think the 50/50 solution is the best one. It's fair in that the states get seated, but effectively punishes them for violating the rules by ensuring that they won't sway the election.
shaker o salt @ 47:
Whaaah! Tough shit. Play by the rules or don't come at all.
I don't change the rules when I'm in the middle of a contest.
You probably don't even read instruction pamplets and cry when you entertainment center falls down. If the Florida contest was legal, Clinton would only gain about 10-15 delegates anyway. She would still be behind.
nonbeliever @ 10:
While I like the re-vote idea, I gotta really take issue with this "Dems minority" argument. Know how many dem state house members voted against the primary bill? 1. Know how many dem house members there were in regular session? About 42. Know how many Florida state senators voted against the bill? 2. Know how many dem house members voted against the combined bill? Zero, ziltch, nada, none. This wasn't a case of a republican majority railroading the minority dems, this was a bipartisan bill with democratic co-sponsors which was approved by our representatives knowing that this was a likely consequence. Re-vote? Sure, but lets all stop with this silly "dems got railroaded" spin.
Btw: Delegates or no, I'll be voting democratic in Florida in November as will all other non-republican Floridians I know.
-FL...
Florida and Michigan approved these rules. And then they got screwed by their elected officials who chose to "represent" them by trying to break the rules without consequences.
All but one of the Dems in the FL lege voted to do it. There may have been other things on the bil, but in the end, the Florida lege made that call.
If Florida and Michigan want to blame someone for the mess they're in, they can blame their elected representatives and recall them, or remember what they did at the next election and replace them with representatives that will do their job well.
Howard Dean didn't create this mess, neither did Obama or Kos or anyone else other than the legislators that explicitly cast a vote to do it and the Governors that didn't veto the bills.
kep 306... if Hillary has her way, with all her surragates laying in wait to rig this election then the only way I see this is by truning these two states into an even draw. I don't blame the voters. This was done by republicans in Florida. We shoudln't fall for it though. Hillary Clinton will have to take the medicine that was available at the time. The reputlcians want us to fight about it, tear the party apart. If you split the delegates, then the voiices were heard even though no one campaigned there. You think Clinton would have that lead if Obama had come there and campaigned. Many voted early. Florida would be like Texas and Ohio. Clinton had a 20 point lead before Obama got there. When Obama left those two states he lost Ohio by 8 or 9 points and lost the popular vote in Texas by 1 point. He won the caucus and came out of Texas with more delegates so essentially Clinton didn't do what she really had to to win. She lost Texas.
The media is spinning you. Obama has already won. she can not make up the ground uless Obama gets out of the race and it doesn't matter who wins Fl or Mi.
The delegates wer disqualified. Split them. Seat them. The Republicans don't win.
"Palooka Says: Dean needs to start flexing his muscle and tell Florida tough shit. You don’t break the rules. Sorry.
"
Maybe floridians will think twice about electing republcains as governers and in high places next time. If they do feel disenfranchised, maybe they will put the blame where it belongs. If we allow the gop to run the democratic process we will set horrible presedence for the future. they alreay walk all over the dem's. When is dean/pelosi/reid going to have some backbone. If they allow this I will stay independant long after this election. The gop is brainless or clueless. But the dnc is spineless. Which is worse? I will do what I always have done. Look at the person/candidate, not the party. Both are beyond repair.
You're post is actually wrong. It is Florida's U.S. House Reps that are saying no, not Florida's (State) House. There is a big difference. You should correct this. Florida's US House reps do not have any kind of final say over this.
Punish Florida by unseating half the delegates that each candidate won based on the unauthorized primary. Then, unseat all the Florida superdelegates. Done.
They chose to break the rules, they're choosing not to revote. Can anyone remind me why we're supposed to be sympathetic?
By the time I voted in the Texas primary half of the candidates had already dropped out. Let's all vote at the same time. They just do it this way so they can control the outcome. As far as Florida we need to let them vote. It's not the voters fault. Oh, and just try and run as a third party candidate, the DNC and the RNC are determined to keep third party candidates out and won't even let them in the debates.
PrincetonPDX @ 19:
And how exactly did you glean from what I said that I speak as if it was a tie. It's not about Hillary or Obama, it's about the Democrats of Michigan and Florida getting heard in spite of what their stupid state politicians did. If they re-vote both states and Hillary loses, I expect she'd know it were time to go.
So let's see, Florida's a swing state that we haven't won since 1996 and you want to disenfranchise them in 2008? Bad move. Let them vote.
shaker o salt @ 47:
Nice of Obama to "inspire" people by also endorsing voter disenfranchisement. Self-righteous & hypocritical when he says he wants to bring people together but not if they're from MI & FL.
Dean needs to be replaced. He's screwed up or allowed to be screwed up, by his inaction/ineptitude, nearly everything about this process. He's the leader. It's on him to fix what he allowed to happen or put someone else in charge who will fix it ASAP. Just because he "never thought" this might happen is no excuse. For many months, he's never thought PERIOD. Like several have pointed out, splitting MI/FL delegates down the middle is pointless & unfair to everyone especially the voters.
"As a voter and long term Democratic resident of Florida, I feel the DNC and the DLC should shut up and go away. They “Abandoned” us in the 2000 election when hoods were intimidating folks at the polls, and the judges, and look what we got! BUSH$CO and the murderers of underestimated and hidden civilian death counts. The destruction of our Constitution and the Rule of Law in America! They should work as hard to end fascism in America as they are to disqualify voters."
No responsibility for ones actions. if you got a problem with the leadership of florida, change it. Put in mor ework. Stop electing republcains and their sell-out democrats.
you have choices and options. Stop pointing the finger florida and take your state back from the new yorkers.
Why in the hell don't we conduct primary elections just like the general election? Each state votes on the same day of the same month simultaneously. One fricken time, and it's done. Might even shorten the painfully long campaign period.
State by state ritual for months on end is pure bullcrap.
LPD @ 70:
Agreed. The DNC needs to be in front of this. I've sent Governor Dean my thoughts, has anyone else?
-FL...
Diane @ 68:
I agree. This current approach to the primaries is completely antiquated. Iowa and NH are just going to have to suck it up and realize they do not represent the country.
Samson- @ 57:
Exactly! Where was all this talk before the vote when something could have been done about it? The people of these two states knew their vote wasn't going to count and they did nothing. I saw no protests on TV, I didn't hear about any petitions being presented to the idiots that made the decision. The voters of Michigan and Florida don't care. They know the only voices that count in our political system are the ones holding stack of money. Somebody's campaign has made this into an issue, with help from Rush Loudmouth. Don't worry about being fair to the citizens of Michigan and Florida. THEY DON'T CARE. If they did we would have had this discussion back in January.
Dr. Hussien Matt @ 74:
Yep. I never got the chance to cast a meaningful vote for my first choice, Edwards. Sucks.
LPD @ 70:
How is this Dr. Dean's fault? This is the fault of Michigan and Florida. He told the states that would be punished if they moved up their primary. He lived up to the promise. What did you expect him to do, beg them and if that didn't work invade?
THEY EITHER NEED TO REVOTE OR SHUT UP!!!
Dr. Hussien Matt @ 7:
Ahem, I would! I could say the same about Texas, right Matt?
I think that Florida should be seated as is. Both had their names on the ballot. Excepting Obama's TV ads, no one campaigned in Florida.
Hillary Clinton won the state. Seat the delegates for Florida as is.
I even think that the Florida governor says something along these lines.
Michigan a bit different problem. Only Clinton was on the ballot.
They should do a red-do, perhaps a mail-in vote there. Both candidates will get equal time to do some campaigning, if they want.
That's my suggestion.
all this is a red herring gang, meant to distract us all from the REAL issues - just like the Ferraro remarks, the hillary "as far as I know's", the we'll fight to the convention...
wake up people: while everyone is paying attention to the political circus, this country is going down the bloody toilet - faster today than eight years ago:
we're torturing people, detaining them indefinitely without trial, charge, right to counsel
we're debating how we're going to remain imperial occupiers of a country we invaded illegally
we're being spied upon by our own government
we're more in debt today than EVER before
our currency is in free fall...
etc. etc. etc.
all while everyone is dutifully pre-occupied with arguing how the deck chairs should be arranged on the Titanic.
wake the fuck up.
"Agreed. The DNC needs to be in front of this. I’ve sent Governor Dean my thoughts, has anyone else?
-FL…
"
I have. I told him to not allow crist and hillary supporters to strong arm him. Not allow tim russert and wolf blitezer to run the dnc like sean hannity and rush limbaugh run the gop. The announcement came out that mi was goign to cacues? I sent an angry letter. A little to angry.
Where is that right now? Anyone know? Are they still cacusing?
But if they split it 50/50 then Hillary won't be able to cheat her way to the nomination!
As a Florida Voter, I REFUSE to have my vote count for candidate I did not vote for.
Troubled American @ 80:
And it is troubling. Don't seat them.
Dr. Acula @ 79:
Fine with me. :) I live here and use to live in Florida. Neither are my "home".
FloridaLiberal @ 61:
Good. I'm glad you'll be voting Democratic in the Fall. I sincerely hope the other non-repug Floridians you don't know will vote Democratic as well. We need to win Florida.
We both agree that the Dems are in the minority but part ways on them being railroaded. As someone mentioned above, the repugs tied the bill that moved up the primary date to a new requirement for paper trails on all voting machines. That's why the Dems in Florida's state legislature went along with it. Blame them if you like, but in the big picture, I'd much rather have a paper trail in Florida.
Forgive me, but does anyone here really believe they have a say in who the next POTUS will be? I do n't care if you had ten votes each, you'd still not have a say.
The MSM is run by the big corporations that owns it, that again are run by the banks that own them. The people that own the banks are the Council on Foreign Relations. Any candidate that is not CFR approved doesn't get any media coverage, and has subsequently not a snowball's chance in hell to make it into, much less out of the primaries. Not to mention the election in November.
FUCK Florida. They shouldn't even be allowed in the GE for the next 50 years for the shit that went down in 2000.
For all of you clinto supporters who want to rip on Obama. He played by the rules and has decided that he will go along with whatever the party decides as long as fraud doesn't become a huge problem. So don't say he's disenfranchising anyone. He is going along with the process so stop slanting your rhetoric. If it's anyone who is breaking party rules, it is Clinton. How about those goal posts? She's doing a lot of heavy lifiting andyou guys are falling for it.
No it's not the voter's fault but it's not Obama that's screwing Florida and Michigan voters, it's the GOP in Florida and I do't know what is with Michigan.
rtghehe @ 89:
We don't punish victoms for what the gangsters do.
We need more people like Keith Olbermann. He is the only truth journalist right now.
What a surprise. A state with a heavily, and I mean heavily dominated GOP house refuses to let Florida have a primary redo for the Dems? I'm shocked!?! This was a stupid idea anyway. Anybody with any damn brains knew this would happen. The state GOP is still screwing the state Democratic Party by having a direct effect over who they want the Dem nominee to be. They want Clinton. That's why they moved the damn thing in the first place when the Dems didn't want it. Yet, everybody keeps blaming the Dems for this.
Wow @ 90:
I think tou 're little oversensetive or trying to start something. Chillax and lets have a friendly conversation.
"Wow Says: We need more people like Keith Olbermann. He is the only truth journalist right now.
"
sPEAKING OF OLBERMAN. I just read he's doing a speacial comment on hillary tonight. The first ever targeting a "dem". though i say she took the lieberman route about the same time he did
Dr. Hussien Matt @ 86:
Okay. Coolio.
EliteLemming @ 91:
Well said.
I don't have any objection and I am willing to go to the polls and vote again as long as the ballot appeared just as it did the first time I voted with all of the candidates names on there.
biff @ 13:
You will note however that you don't see so much "rushing to his defense", by leftists, as you do with the right (unless the infraction related to homosexuality.....and even then to some degree).......I can't speak for everyone, but my take is "Ok, he screwed up....he's done.....next question".......conversely, the GOP rallies the troops, falls into line and puts the full force into protecting their "team" at the expense of the public good.
V V
Isn't everyone sick of Florida after 2000 (and 2004)? It's the little brat state. Can't they get even one freaking election right? If they can't even participate in this democracy then let them SECEDE with Texas, form a 3rd world country called Bushonia, and good riddance. For the good people there, and there are plenty, I'm sorry but your state got Bushed, and until it gets unBushed this is how it's going to be.
PS-I AM SICK OF HEARING ABOUT FLORIDA.
"Here’s how you seat them — you cut them in half for breaking the rules, like the GOP did, and then you assign them 50/50 each to Obama and Clinton. Presto! Issue solved."
------------
Sounds fair to me!
Give Hillary two ties in two states she would have won! Because the sates f'ed up. No doubt Hillary should pay the price for that!
Sounds really democratic, doesn't it?
Kinda like how Hillary won Texas handily, but Obama ended up with more delegates because of the crooked caucus system.
rtghehe @ 89:
Chill. It was ultimately the SCOTUS that f*cked us on that election. Here in FL, Jebbie had it in the bag for his dumbass bro.
This is a no-brainer, folks. If the Democratic Party has any hope of being taken seriously by the general electorate, they MUST enforce their own rules. We've had 8 years of this Republican administration breaking every rule and law they can find, and the Democrats are supposedly going to swoop in and clean that up. Well, they have to start with themselves.
Those two states broke the Democratic Party's rules and the consequences were clearly stated, so there is NO debate needed. They broke the rules, they lose out. End of story.
Overturn the Florida vote. I agree with Hillary...we must maintain continuity and fairness...Florida votes must be overturned again.
The fate of country cannot be placed in the hands of the people and voting machines and rules.
nonbeliever @ 87:
Don't get me wrong, as a democratic-leaning Floridian, I'm pretty used to being disenfranchised and don't expect to actually WIN in November. But I keep voting and calling and writing my "representatives". I just feel that that whole railroading argument would be a little more credible if anyone in Tallahassee made so much as a protest vote. It's not as if the bill would have failed. I mean, the whole argument boils down to this: either the Florida democrats were complicit in passing the bill (my view), they were horribly outplayed by the GOP, or they risked the trouble in the general due to political expediency (the quotes at the time indicated that our state assembly members didn't believe that the consequences would be upheld). In all cases, I'm not happy. I reject the notion that it was had to be all or nothing. The fact that the GOP allowed a paper trail at all indicates, to me anyway, that there was enormous electoral pressure to do so.
Here's a personal story about why I feel that seating without a re-vote is such a bad idea. As you probably know, Florida has a closed primary. I was (since fixed in case of a re-vote) registered as an independent. Knowing my vote wouldn't make any difference, I didn't bother changing my party affiliation. The rules were spelled out well in advance and I had no doubt they would be enforced- silly, eh? Anyway, I still voted in the primary due to the constitutional amendment on the ballot, but had I known that delegates would be seated, I would have voted as a democrat. I can't be the only one.
-FL...
Why doesn't the Democratic party in Florida just switch to a caucus system so the Republicans wouldn't have any say over when/where/how they hold their elections. It seems inherently dangerous to tie your party's primary election process to that of your opponent's (especially when you're in a state where your opponents are often in power).
Troubled American @ 80:
If the DNC actually gave a shit about what we voters in FL said in our primary, they would never have decided to dismiss ALL the delegates. The RNC is counting 1/2 of their FL delegates.
Liberal AND Proud @ 104:
Wha?
Okay, so elected representatives decide how people vote to make up the mind of delegates who vote to elect a candidate at a convention along with other delegates who vote their own will instead of the will of the people. If you asked me to design an election process....this is definitely how I would do it. Some people would probably go the simple route and have the candidate who recieves more votes from the people win but how boring is that?
Oh, and superdelates...wtf? Are these just guys that have a net worth of 50 million who painted S's on their chests and vowed to fight to keep power out of the hands of the masses?
How do you say 'America is not a democracy' in one word?
Answer: Superdelegates
rtghehe @ 89:
That's pretty stupid. It was the NEO-CONS in power in Fla...not the Floridian citizens...
Why should we be punished for that?
rtghehe @ 83:
Misogynist!!!
Dr. Hussien Matt @ 7:
But where would we keep our horde of anti-Castro Cuban terrorists and assassins?
Kyle @ 110:
Enough with delegates and, in the case of dems, superdelegates. How about the overall winner of the popular vote in all primaries (forget caucuses) is the nominee?
On the same note, how about scrapping the electoral college?
I have to believe that the founding fathers' fear of the ignorant masses not knowing how to think for themselves is not such a concern any longer. Well, except for Fixed Noise viewers anyway.
heck, i called for splitting the delegates in half a month ago.
Kyle @ 110:
And apperantly the regular(?) delegates can vote however they want to as well. Neat huh?
Claiming that it is not the voters' fault, and that the delegates should be seated 'as is' sounds very unfair to Obama. It also sounds very desperate if you are a Hillary supporter. Obama always managed to close the gap by campaigning (just look at Ohio and Texas). That is how he has come this far.
You guys need to remember that Clinton always had the advantage, with her name recognition and her husband. Obama was a nobody compared to her. But, he came this far.
Because the rules were violated, Obama did not campaign in Florida, his name was not in the ballot in Michigan. He played by the rules. If a re-vote is not possible, I say tough luck to Hillary.
How come cacuses are a bad thing? 'Cause Hillary can't win them?
by the way, one of the folks involved in creating the superdelegate process was geraldine "i'm white so don't pick on me" ferraro
vincie @ 18:
Although I'm trying to be less adversarial as we will need to be pulling together here shortly (granted with "my guy" heir apparent, it's easier to be magnaimous), I can't help but note that the online Hillary supporters are acting more and more like the Rontards as time goes by...........POSTING IN ALL CAPS for example......also there was a video up on Democratic underground which (I didn't look closely at it) I believe was trying to smear Barak because of someone that is a friend of his friend Tony Rezko.......one degree of "separation" away. That amused me in it's desperate idiocy.........The following people are "one degree of separation" from me:
George W. Bush
The entire British Royal Family including Princess Diana
Gene Hackman
Possibly, the noted gangsters of the thirties? (Al Capone, Bugsy Malone, etc).....Grandpa had a lot of hoodlum friends in a town noted for that activity......keep hearing stories about Grandma having a fit about them setting Tommy guns on the kitchen table.
And I'm more or less "nobody"...........far from a little social butterfly who knows everyone around me.
V V
The DNC's rules are that if a state moved up it's primary date, that state's delegates won't be seated. Fine.
So now, if Michigan and Florida do a re-vote, wouldn't this effectively move their primary dates to be in line with the DNC's rules and thus require them to be seated? Someone tell me where I'm wrong.
An election in which neither candidate is allowed to campaign is not a valid election. The people who keep saying "but Hillary won", it wasn't a valid election. You can't win a contest that isn't legitimate from the start.
Hillary didn't "win" anything in Florida yet, because there's been no valid election in Florida yet. Only an illegitimate contest where many people stayed home and didn't participate because they knew it wouldn't count.
There are many fair ways to deal with this mess now: revote, a delegate split, whatever. But putting the seal of approval on an illegitimate contest is not one of them.
Much as that may piss off Clinton supporters, it's a matter of basic fairness to the candidates, to the voters that stayed home because they knew the contest wouldn't count, and to the voters in the rest of the states that actually followed the rules that all states agreed to follow.
nonbeliever @ 121:
You have a point, but isn't it like being caught shoplifting, then offering to pay for the item to avoid consequences.
Gosh...this democracy thing is so screwed up...I mean rules and shit...how the hell can a person get elected if they have to follow all these rules.
BUSH FOR DICTATOR FOR LIFE!!!
Typical C&L'er @ 112:
Methinks a lot folks here go to misogynist parlours.
I saw the Daily Obama link and knew I did not need to read that tripe. Let me guess , give them to Obama because that is who KOS backs. How I do ? .
Dr. Hussien Matt @ 7:
But Florida's America's wang!
(Credit Homer Simpson, I ain't Obama).
killthepoor @ 113:
Where could we delay the Space Shuttle launches?
Arizona @ 122:
Exactly.
Now I understand the strategy!
Hillary is gonna stonewall until everyone gets bored and goes home!!
BRILLIANT!
Michigan here.
We're not doing a revote because we won't pay for it, we're broke.
If our governor (who I like) pays for it so her candidate (who I don't like) can come up with precisely zero extra delegates, because that is the way it will go, then fine.
We have Bushco and NAFTA to thank for our glowing Michigan economy.
Hill lied to Ohio about NAFTA, we know the truth now.
Hillary = McCain in that they both act as if the nominations are "owed" to them.
time and money says there will most likely be NO DO-OVER....
put them 50-50 and move on.....
we DEMOCRATS have so many more important things to do, this negates their votes among themselves but still puts the at the convention so they get the free chicken dinner
Rough place to be a Floridian. The only thing they can do now that would really piss me off is to seat the delegates based on the sham primary we had. NOBODY is truly interested in not disenfranchising us - what the hell does 50/50 do to make me feel like I had a voice? They're just trying to get somebody closer to the magic number. For that reason, I think the delegates should remain unseated. There's no way any social moderate in their right mind can vote for McCain, and to do so just to spite the Democratic Party would be insane.
Stop insulting Floridians. I, for one, did e-mail Howard Dean and the state party and my senator PRIOR to the primary, when it could have made a difference, to no avail. I guess I should have stood outside with a sign, but I didn't. My bad.
FloridaLiberal @ 105:
As an independent in a closed primary state, I sympathize with much of what you're saying. However, I wouldn't expect repugs to do the right thing due to electoral pressure. Quite clearly, voting anomalies have favored their party in recent years. It is pretty easy to be outplayed when you're in the minority (my opinion). Actually we agree that Florida and Michigan should re-vote prior to seating their delegates. It's the only fair way to make sure the voters get heard.
Alice Hussein @ 131:
Hillary doesn't lie. She has handlers for that.
EliteLemming @ 123:
I'm not sure I agree with your shoplifting analogy. If these states were initially shoplifting from anyone wouldn't it be themselves?
The original primaries are null and void and don't count. New primaries for these Michigan and Florida should count. I say Michigan and Florida should re-vote excluding anyone who already voted in the repug primaries.
Mary @ 134:
I'm here with ya Mary! They love to pick on most southern states, especially florida. But they don't mean no harm by it...I think...
nonbeliever @ 137:
My point wasn't supposed to be about stling, but breaking rule then trying to do right when you find that you're going to lose out. I believe telecoms call it "retroactive immunity".
Yeah, let's not lose that point. I totally agree on re-voting. In addition, it's nice that we can disagree with the (admittedly very technical point) way we got there without the rancor that's creeping into this primary. :)
-FL...
ysbaddaden @ 2:
"over who actually won them in the first place." She was the only name on the ballot in Michigan. You know who else was the only name on the ballot once?
/had too, it's a law
ysbaddaden @ 125:
Aye, there's the rub.
"Presto! Issue solved."
That's crap. The delegates that go to the convention should represent a vote of the people of Florida and Michigan, not some 50/50 "solution."
Arizona @ 122:
Alot of what you said is true but splitting the state's delegates is NOT one of the fair ways to fix this problem. I'd like to see Barack and Hillary campaign in both states and then let the voters decide.
Seriously. KO'S IDEA IS GREAT!
But let Obama be the more generous since he is the BLACK man with THE UNFAIR ADVANTAGE. This is just for you, you petty whiners and sore losers.
Obama will give you a head start..
Obama can and should make the offer to go a little farther to more represent the actual likely results:
1. We should definitely penalize the two states and take half their delegates away. The Rule of Law must supersede all things.
2. Let's stipulate that Florida will end up with Clinton winning 55% of the vote -give her 55% of the Delegates and Obama 45%.
3. Let's stipulate that Michigan will end up with Obama winning 55% of the vote - give him 55% of the Delegates and Clinton 45%.
No one can argue that this is unfair. We can't use the popular vote numbers without a re do so they are out- it's the delegates anyway that count.
“We are committed to working with the DNC, the Florida State Democratic party, our Democratic leaders in Florida, and our two candidates to reach an expedited solution that ensures our 210 delegates are seated. Our House delegation is opposed to a mail-in campaign or any redo of any kind.”
Translation is simple: We are committed to Hillary Clinton, and have worded our refusal to be fair in suich a way that the first part of the refusal doesn't logically follow the second part, but knowing the media has our backs, we ain't concerned--we're committed, see--so we will call it "working with you" but the outcome has to be that there is no redo of any kind, AND that the deligates will be seated as they are, for Hillary Clinton. Is that clear? Or are you going to pick on us because we're white?
No solution anybody proposes will please everyone -- there are just too many factors involved.
Florida had everybody on the ticket but thousands didn't vote for a Democratic candidate because they knew it wouldn't count. Some ads run by Obama in other states were carried by the cable programming in Florida because they carried those cable stations as part of a package. Couldn't be helped and wasn't intentional. Florida's Republican majority overrode any Democratic protest about moving the Democratic primary up before the allowed date.
Then in Michigan, Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot, though Clinton's, Dodd's, and Kucinich's were.
Now here's something we Floridians can really get behind....Our legislature is obviously too busy to worry about anything as silly as a presidential election.
http://cbs4.com/local/legislature.toilet.paper.2.675445.html
EliteLemming @ 139:
Gotcha. Well in that case, unlike the telecoms, the voters of Florida and Michigan didn't actually commit a crime. Not seating their delegates would punish the voters for something they didn't have a say in. Don't you think?
Florida House Says “No” to Primary Re-Vote
Did they spell it right?
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