A Solution for Michigan and Florida?
By SilentPatriot Thursday Mar 13, 2008 8:30amThe Atlantic's Mark Ambinder has the scoop:
Michigan’s 156 delegates would be split 50-50 between Clinton and Obama.
–Florida’s existing delegates would be seated at the Denver convention—but with half a vote each. That would give Clinton a net gain of about 19 elected delegates.
– The two states’ superdelegates would then be able to vote in Denver, likely netting Clinton a few more delegates.
Given the slew of bad and costly remedies floated so far, this actually doesn't sound like a bad way to quickly save untold millions and seat the two states' delegates. On the one hand we don't want to essentially disenfranchise these voters, but on the other, the rules are the rules. We don't need to start the post-Bush era of America by breaking the rules.
Howard Dean needs to start cracking skulls and make this right.
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Give ME the delegates!
Rep. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz tried to pin the blame on the Republican-led Flordia State Legislature, saying they were the ones who pushed the early primary ... but because the general measure included provisions for both paper trails and manual recounts, the Democrats all voted in favor of it.
So, let me get this straight. In order to protect voters from fraud and disenfranchisement, you voted for a measure that would result in your state's delegates not being seated AT ALL? Ever think about saying something like, "Our esteemed colleagues have overlooked that the Democratic National Committee has prohibited states from holding their primaries before x date,"???
If Florida and Michigan want their votes counted then nothing short of a new vote with an actual date and actual campaigning is going to make voters happy. To arbitrarily apply a 50/50 split is ludicrous. You might as well not even count the votes... its meaningless and it has no impact on the election.
Personally I say redo the whole thing. Let the state of Florida and Michigan pay for it if the state Democratic party doesn't have the money. The results will be the same as nearly every other state... one candidate gets 48% and the other 49%.
Or here is an idea... WHY NOT JUST HAVE HILLARY CONCEDE SINCE SHE HAS ZERO CHANCE OF WINNING NOW ANYWAY!
The rules? These rules were made by the party, not codified in law. These rules are themselves responsible for disenfranchising me along with millions of others in MI. There should be a re-vote in MI, paid for by the party. Its not about saving money, its about democracy. I want my vote to count, not be negotiated into nullification on some false notion of fairness or frugality. The party made this mess. They should fix it.
doctor dean is beginning to look to me like one very incompetent manager. how did this situation get this screwed up and stay this screwed up for so long without effective national party leadership? and of course all the dnc money has been decentralized out as part of the fifty state strategy in which we are supposed to have some chance of winning georgia, south carolina, mississippi, etc. in november?? kerry states plus ohio and we make the next few supreme court picks....seems pretty obvious to me....sometimes i think the democratic party is like a patient with badly clogged coronary arteries and instead of artery replacement the good doctor is sending the patient for chelation.
It's all smoke and mirrors. It's over folks. Obama is damaged goods, and you can blame the McCain-Hillary neocon axis.
A recent PEW poll shows that 10% of Democrats who support Obama would defect and vote for McCain should Hillary become the candidate.
But, a whopping 25% of Democrats who support Hillary would defect and vote for McCain should Obama become the candidate.
Hillary's ass-kissing of McCain as a leader who has "crossed the threshold," and her campaigns' belitting portrayals of Obama as an uppity-black Muslim who got nuthin' but a soaring voice, have succeeded beyond her wildest dreams -- pandering to racists and war-lovers.
Hillary's new strategy: Obama can't win the general election, because a quarter of my supporters are racists and warmongers.
A winning strategy! Bravo, Team Clinton.
Is it a mess?
The rules were not to have the primary before super-tuesday, they broke the rules, and the delegates were taken away.
sounds clean to me.
Redoing the vote seems expensive, logistically difficult and extrodinary.
If we are to do it in these two states why not in every state? After all then Democrats would be able to vote for one of TWO candidates instead of one of Many as they did the first time around. That would give a truly resounding answer to the question, "Who do the Democrats want in the White House?"
interesting, this amerikan democrassy... yes...
Hillary says the Michigan and Florida primaries were fair. She was the only one on the ballot (except Kucinich I think). Everyone else took their name off after signing the pledge to do so. Hillary signed it also but didn't follow through. Her statement implies that all the candidates had the same option to cheat as she did but she was the only one who did. (that's my interpretation)
KO showed this last night. Another Rovian play from the Clinton camp.
And Obama is continuing his winning streak. They guy came from nowhere to become the leading democratic contender against the biggest names in the party. The guy has defeated every obstacle that has come before him so far, why am I to suppose things will change?
sheik yerbouti @ 6:
Obama is damaged goods?
How is it that Hillary can shoot herself in the foot, Ferraro can shoot off her mouth and it damages Obama?
Explain this, please.
Shadowgm @ 2:
The whole thing doesn't make sense. Perfunctorily dividing the "delegates" in half is democratic how? Dean should've seen this coming last year. Not planning for any worst-case scenarios is disgraceful. Heck of a job, Howard. Who's the DNC brain trust besides Dean? The longer he doesn't do anything about this, the more pathetic & embarrassing it is for the Dems.
I live in Florida and I voted (for Obama). However, I was aware that by breaking the rules the Florida delegates were not going to be seated. I have many friends who didn't bother to vote at all because the rules were broken. With one exception, they were ALL Obama supporters. The bottom line is that the vote in Florida is invalid, no matter how you look at it. Those who voted are being disenfranchised. And those who didn't bother to vote because they were told their vote wouldn't count anyway were disenfranchised. I personally don't think any delegates should be seated. The Florida DNC was warned, and they chose to go along with the Republicans anyway. As for Michigan, they also broke the rules, knowing what the results would be. Now everybody wants to be seated anyway! People need to grow up. If you break the rules (or law), you deal with the consequences. We've had enough lawlessness in this country for the past 7+ years via the Bush administration. We certainly don't need to see the Democratic party behaving the same way.
As a Michigan voter, I think the state should have to pay for it again. It was the State's republican based senate that caused the mess in Michigan. Either the State says yes we were wrong, and pays for a revote, OR no votes get counted. Which would be the wise thing, since Obama wasn't on the ballot the first time.
why is Hillary supposed to benefit from this so-called 'fair' solution and not Obama?
no matter how you slice it, the fix is in!
That's very generous, giving delegates to Obama that he didn't earn.
What about "the will of the people?"
It must be a coincidence that the Obama supporters seem more interested in fixing the election rather than fixing the problem.
xoites Hussein defends Constitution @ 12:
Look at the numbers:
10% of Democrats who support Obama would defect and vote for McCain should Hillary become the candidate.
25% of Democrats who support Hillary would defect and vote for McCain should Obama become the candidate
The Obama camp has way more committed Democratic voters than does Clinton.
The Clinton campaigns' negativity against Obama, and positivity about McCain, is having the desired effect. It's a classic Rovian triangulation divide-and-conquer.
Advantage Billary.
impeachcheneythenbush @ 14:
This really is the best argument. The process is tainted and therefore should be thrown out.
The rules about food you find in the refridgerator applies here as well, "When in doubt, throw it out."
sheik yerbouti @ 18:
Right now, but the General election is in November. Those numbers are meaningless ion the heat of battle.
sure... give her some free delegates on a state that broke the rules.
The dems won't win in '08.
they've already fucked themselves beyond repair.
Good job morons.
Doesn't matter who's side your on. Wall Street Obama, Von Hillary, or Nuke McCain.
Everyones cheating and trying to manipulate the game.
OBAMA WAS NOT ON THE MICHIGAN BALLET, BUT ALL WERE ON THE FLORIDA BALLET. BY THE WAY OBAMA IS THE ONLY ONE IN FLORIDA TO CAMPAIGN ON TV.
Shadowgm @ 2:
the important thing in florida was protecting the vote and the voters' rights. that apparently is not important enough to you to keep you from finding someone to get angry at, eh? do a search through C&L a couple of pages back and listen to what debbie really had to say to britany hume.
What is the point of just splitting these equally, how is that any different than not seating them and having the winner required to win fewer delegates like they are doing now.
L.A. Confidential @ 22:
Everyone?
What has Obama done?
When a Hillary supporter starts saying "everyone is doing it" you have to ask.
vincie @ 23:
I think you'll find the t.v. campaigning you're referring to were ads on national t.v. including Florida. Try again.
seele @ 7:
Then stop calling it the Democratic Party because that's fundamentally not democratic. It's egotistical voter disenfranchisement by 2 small States. This century's Me First! Generation at work. Letting the Repubs dictate the rules, in FL no less. What a surprise it's turned into a disaster.
Let's make it even simpler... Seat them both - Split them both 50/50 - and let the super delegates do what super delegates do.
Simple, Fair, and Free.
xoites Hussein defends Constitution @ 26:
Ask what?
I think Florida and Michigan should organize a football game. Whoever wins gets to keep the ball. Other than that they can watch it on tv.
sheik yerbouti @ 6:
Let's just Declare Obama President of The United States so his supporters will shut up with their constant whining and bickering.
I don't understand the broo-ha-ha here. The rules were very, very, very simple. The punishment was very, very, very clearly stated. The rules were broken, the price must be paid.
As for dinging Dean, as far as I can tell, all he's done is reiterated that the rules should be followed, and when they aren't, the transgressors must be punished.
What is so hard to follow here? What am I missing?
sheik yerbouti @ 6:
That would mean that one helluva lot of Clinton supporters are Republican then, wouldn't it? So, they had no intention of voting Dem anyway.
xoites Hussein defends Constitution @ 26:
L.A. Confidential @ 30:
Leaving out my question is not as clever as you might think.
Howard Dean needs to start cracking skulls and make this right.
Why would he? He is a part of the problem in politics. Party clowns don't understand this very simple fact.
L.A. Confidential @ 33:
Its a deal if you stop pissing and moaning.
WRG @ 29:
I don't know why Hillary is pushing for this. Every state she has ran against Obama, she has either barely won, or been pounded. It isn't going to make a difference on the eventual winner.
xoites Hussein defends Constitution @ 38:
Oh okay it's my fault now huh?
How old are you?
WRG @ 29:
Put them both on a chait cut'em in half, and let the delegates help themselves to whatever is left.
Okay that make you happy?
L.A. Confidential @ 40:
How old am i?
Older than John Amato.
What a friggin mess!
Here I do dual duty for Party.
Bringing the Party Together!
I say, fuck MI and FL. Rules are rules ladies and gentlemen, breaking rules and getting a do-over or an exemption is Bush rule. Do we really want to continue the unaccountability trend any longer? Tough tittys folks, you made your cake now it's time to lie in it. And WTF is wrong with Florida? Howard Dean should have one mandate alone; get one valid vote out of this plagued and demented state by say, November 2008?
L.A. Hillary Confidential @ 45:
For parties i usually do micro brews.
Any "solution" that does not represent the results of a vote in Florida and Michigan is NOT a solution and should be considered unacceptable. It's not the states that need to be represented, it's the will of the voters in those states.
L.A. Hillary Confidential @ 45:
LOL!
Of course, the Democratic leadership could just stick to the rule they made and reduce the necessary number of delegate votes for a win by the number of delegates in Michigan and Florida. That's what I originally thought they planned.
WRG @ 29:
Fair to whom? It's not fair to the voters in those states who do not (necessarily) have accurate representation of what THEY want.
xoites Hussein defends Constitution @ 20:
Pay closer attention to the trend.
Hillary is the Establishment.
Team Obama is the new expansion franchise.
The established team wants to give the new kid on the block a bloodied nose, and they'll do it -- and are doing it -- by any means necessary.
Team Hillary is doing everything they can to make it to the Superbowl, even if that means a scorched earth policy for her Conference should she not make it to the championship, assuring the trophy of the presidency goes to a Republican for another four years.
Team Clinton tactics are working, she keeps getting first downs, and as long as it works, her surrogates will not change the game plan.
Sure, it's only the 2nd-quarter. But all those cheapshots to the knees, all those off-the-ball fouls, all the clipping, the spear tackles from behind, the helmet-on-helmet its to the head, will have precisely the desired effect for Team Hillary come the Two-Minute Warning.
And should Obama still come on top the winner of the AFC championship, he'll be so bruised and battered and carrying so many teammates on the Injury-Reserve List, that the rested and unscathed NFC champion Team McCain -- who the media drools over -- will prevail in the November Superbowl.
anneyhussein @ 51:
So, the Democratic Party is becoming the party of disenfranchisement? I thought that was the purview of the Republicans...
sheik yerbouti @ 53:
ROFLMAO!!!
The media has been drooling over Obama...
Swashbuckler @ 52:
Hillary's campaign could offer to pay for it.....or her corporate backers.....there's an idea if they truly support her and think she is the one
vincie @ 23:
Obama was NOT on the Fla. ballot and he certainly followed the rules by NOT CAMPAIGNING THERE. The ad was paid for well in advance.
When some people lose, they will say about anything to start winning. In Hillary's case it is only going to cause her to lose more in the approach she is taking.
Personally I wouldn't vote for Hillary simply because if she has to inject money to keep her campaign going, it is pretty good indicator of what to expect from her if gets the reigns to the country. Sorry we’ve had enough of that and look where it has lead us.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 35:
You keep perpetuating that myth. That don't make it true...
CoIntelPro - against Divisive Democrats @ 57:
Obama WAS on the Florida ballot you nitwit...
Hope and help for a common condition.
Confusion
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 39:
I can't imagine Hillary liking this idea; it maintains Obama's current lead. It's a net lose for her compared to what she wants, which is to seat them as they are - with her wining both.
L.A. Confidential @ 33:
fixed it!
Why don't they just take a poll without any prior notification and see who would vote for Obama now. It would save money and there would only be a 3-5% chance of error.
Swashbuckler @ 60:
flaming me, shithead?
CoIntelPro - against Divisive Democrats @ 57:
Btw, whether the ad was paid for in advance or not is irrelevant as ads can be pulled. That the ad was a national ad that showed up in Florida is another matter...
Keep in mind that we Democrats here in Florida have a tradition of keeping Republicans in office, no matter how corrupt, perverted or stupid they are.
Why give Clinton nineteen delegates? split both. She is a cheater and shouldn't be rewarded.
The deligutz were disenfranchised by their state legislature by ignoring the DNC rules, and also by the DNC rules themselves. Once that happened, the disenfranchisement occurred because people who may have gone to vote, didn't go vote because they were told their vote would not count. There is no way to rectify this after the fact.
More people are disenfranchised if the deligutz are not seated, but if they are seated, while fewer are disenfranchised, the result is distorted.
CoIntelPro - against Divisive Democrats @ 63:
There ya go!
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 39:
You seem to have a little problem with facts:
RI: Clinton 58%
Ark: Clinton 70%
NY: Clinton 57%
moondancer @ 67:
And what evidence do you that she cheated?
nomoreclintonorbush @ 68:
Well, imagine that! A Republican controlled legislature not caring about stupid DNC rules...
CoIntelPro - against Divisive Democrats @ 57:
I live in Fla. and Obama along with every other dem candidate was on our ballot. Even some dem. candidates who had dropped out by then still had their name on our ballot.
vincie @ 23:
No need to yell throughout the entire post.
You are aware, aren't you, that those TV ads "shown in Florida" were carried by cable channels in other states and ended up showing in areas of Florida where local channels carried packages that included the other states? So those campaign ads were not intended for campaigning in Florida. For instance, my local cable channel here in Georgia broadcasts WGN in Chicago as is, time difference and all, so we can watch WGN as though we were in Chicago.
CoIntelPro - against Divisive Democrats @ 65:
Calling you out on your lie. It's amazing how Obama-ites condemn Hillary for "lying" and then lie themselves...
Obama, Clinton Chat It Up On Senate Floor.
Wow, they like each other!
that's a preposterously unfair 'fair' solution.... but it's a good first offer from the HRC camp.
the BHO camp should come back with 50/50 in each state, and then all will be well if HRC gets a grip and accepts...
but I'm really tired of hearing HRC whine about the MI and FL voters now that it matters to her so much (help me obe won FLOMI, you're my only hope)....where was she when they were getting spanked by dean
Nobody cares about the state's delegates.
The two states’ superdelegates would then be able to vote in Denver, likely netting Clinton a few more delegates.
That's the point of this... both sides know the fight is now in the hands of the superdelegates. It's irrelevant if you how you split the Michigan/Florida delegates because neither side can clinch before the convention.
It's all about the super delegates.
Barack Obama has nothing to gain from this; it will just be a chance for Hillary Clinton's team to bash him for "not giving Michigan and Florida a chance to vote" (even though it was the DNC that did that). It's a no-win situation for Obama.
Swashbuckler @ 59:
It's not a myth if the previous post is true. Anyone that says they will not vote for Obama if he is the winner, obviously had no intention to vote for him at all. Saying that a big percentage would vote for McCain, knowing he is Bush The Sequel Part 3, is saying that a big portion of her supporters are really Republican. Not a myth, if the voting pattern is correct.
Butch @ 78:
So, the Democratic Party should disenfranchise the voters in two states because it doesn't help the chosen one?
Swashbuckler @ 70:
3 out of? You seem to have a little problem with Hillary losing. Do you have money invested? Well that sucks. Never invest in politicians because they will shit on you.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 79:
ROLFMAO!!!
Dude, you have a serious reading problem as I showed you that Clinton had not barely won three states as was alleged.
You might want to consider taking a few adult ed classes...
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 81:
That's not the point. You said "EVERY STATE". You were wrong, just admit it and move on.
Swashbuckler @ 80:
If the DNC caves in to the state parties in MI and FL, watch for the primaries for the 2012 election to be held on the first Tuesday following the election in 2008. No one will pay the slightest attention to the DNC in their race to be first.
Might I suggest that the Democrats of MI and FL toss out the morons who voted for moving up the election despite the DNC rules. i know there was some paper trail, but as has been pointed out, it is of little value if the vote is meaningless to begin with.
The Clintons and Bushes always try to move the goal posts when they're losing.
Only the Democrats could fuck up a "gimme" election this badly. Only the Democrats could manage sheer impotence against a lame-duck "president" with a 24% rating.
Face it, people, the Dems don't want to win a sweeping majority; they just want to complain about inability to get things done -- it's better for donations.
Swashbuckler @ 75:
She's lied her ass off. Doesn't matter if the person saying it is an Obama supporter, or an athletic supporter. Prove she hasn't.
Swashbuckler @ 80:
Yeah Man. The Dems are decisive, focused, HONEST!
Swashbuckler @ 80:
No, because the unchosen chosen one can't agree to a fair solution...even going so far as to suggest, with a straight face, that votes in MI should count as cast, despite the absence of any other names on the ballot..
Butch @ 84:
It's what Democrats do best...
yellow dog @ 85:
This type of "cherry-picking" which counties to hold "do-overs" is the main reason Al Gore is not President of the United States. Instead of demanding recounts in all of the counties in Florida, he chose the counties with disenfranchised African-American and Latino voters.
Which opened the door to the Supreme Court and allowed GeeShrubya to holler that his rights under the 14th Amendment were being violated by this selected recount.
I see the same thing happening with Michigan and Florida. They broke the rules and Howard Dean now needs to lay down the LAW.
There will be no recount.
There will be no Second vote.
The delagates will not be seated at the Convention this summer.
If he doesn't do this, you send a message, the wrong message, to the Democratic Parties in the other 48 states that abided by the rules. If someone is to blame, blame the leaders of the state Democratic Parties in Michigan and Florida, because they damn well knew what the rules were, thumbed their noses at those rules, broke them and hoped Howard Dean or the rest of the DNC wouldn't notice.
They made this bed - let them lie in it. And if they want a do-over, their state should foot the bill, not the DNC.
And, at present, their states are bankrupt and can't afford to pay for them breaking the rules.
Swashbuckler @ 82:
57% is a landslide??? You are clutching strawman arguments. If she did as well as you project, she'd be winning and you would have no reason to make excuses like her campaign. Instead of getting mad at posters and your fellow Democrats, you should be pissed at her campaign staff for taking the "sure thing" less than a year ago, to toilet duty now.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 87:
Sure President Bush, I can prove a negative.
Whatta a putz you are...
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 93:
ROFL!
DUDE, seriously look into the those adult ed classes. Reading comprehension, maybe some remedial English.
There's a lot of room between "barely won" (your previous standard) and "landslide" (your new standard). You're exhibiting the binary thinking of a Republican...
CoIntelPro - against Divisive Democrats @ 57:
YOU ARE A LIAR! Get your facts straight before you post.
I'm a FL voter an all 8 candidates were on the ballot, including Obama.
Regarding Michigan, why should Obama be awarded votes/delegates that technichally were not his? How would I feel as a Michigan Vvoter who voted for Edwards, Kucinich or Richardson? DISENFRANCHISED.
Swashbuckler @ 94:
Once again, the Hillary supporter mentality. Oh no, she's not hurting the Democratic Party. Her SUPPORTERS are.
Obama's going to win the primary, but sore loser Clinton and her husband are going to keep attacking his legitamacy right through November if there isn't some kind of re-vote. These Clintons are the ultimate traitors. Also, they really did agree to these rules. By saying otherwise now makes them straight up liars.
The only way to get around their blackmail is to have some kind of revote, which of course will hurt the party organization anyway by caving to the will of one member.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 81:
Two of those states are pretty much home states anyhow...I love how Hillary supporters are saying "LOOK OBAMA SUPPORTERS ARE SPLITTING THE PARTY." Yeah, right...Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 97:
Idiots like you sure aren't doing Obama or the Democratic Party any favors...
Swashbuckler @ 95:
I'll type slowly so you can understand. She. Can't. Win. The. Nomination. If. They. Had. Another. Election. In. Fla and Mich. And. She. Only. Wins. With. Those. Numbers. Try mathematics 101.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 35:
Bingo! Why'd ya think she was pandering to Archie Bunker with her vote to Authorize War Against Iraq? Why'd ya think she did the same for Kyl-Lieberman?
Hillary and Lieberman are both red neocon wolves wearing blue fleecy liberal wool pullovers. (Awww, isn't dey so soft 'n cuddly?)
Both flirt and kiss and cuddle with McCain in precisely the same way that McCain hugs Bush, the same way Bush holds hands with Saudi King Fahd, the same way Hound-Dog Bill is a regular pally of George H. W. Bush. It's an ideological circle jerk, and don't be fooled by the color of their clothing (the Emperor, after all, wears no clothes)!
It's only perfectly natural that a good portion of Hillary's supporters would abandon the Democrats if Obama wins the nom, and run over to the party of warhawks and racists (which Hillary is clearly both).
Not so. They would vote for a neocon Dem. But if it's a sane liberal Dem on the ticket, they'll make their vote for the neocon Republican.
Not all neocons are fixed to parties.
They'll go wherever they get a best chance to take money out of your pocket and use it to wage endless war with Muslims. And it's the crowd that Hillary panders for votes. All part of the kitchen sink.
Well the Central Bankers-Neocons-Money Men managed to take over and destroy the Republican party so obviously there is only one party left to take out.
In the Republican Party the leadership declares what is going to go down and everybody gets in line and that settles it.
The Democrats (as evidenced here) are a much healthier group.
Bad and Super Bad @ 99:
Irrelevant to my point. The moron claimed that EVERY STATE Hillary won she had barely won. He didn't make any exceptions for "home states". He has a problem with a little thing called facts.
Swashbuckler @ 95:
Swashbuckler, you're still supporting a dishonest loser.....so though your arguments may be sound on points of math, something isn't clicking right in the way your mind is analyzing the candidates...
the unchosen chosen one has resorted to making up slimeball stories about her opponent (plagiarism, nafta), but you stick with her....what's so smart about that....
Howard Dean should be using this as a way to reform the Democratic Primary system, adopt the American Plan or whichever one you like and move on. Between the Michigan/Florida debacle, Giuliani's "Florida strategy," the crazy primary/caucus setup in Texas and whatever happens with the superdelegates in Denver, the system is clearly broken.
O.K. meet me out back. We're going to settle this once and for all. I'm going to kick some butt.
Gee Whizz Wally! @ 102:
Tell that to "Swashbuckler" the Hillary campaign staff.
Swashbuckler @ 105:
57 and 58% are "barely" winning. Hell, in most of the colleges and schools in my province, that would be a failing grade. Who's the moron that is backing a losing campaign?
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 101:
You keep on changing positions. First it was Hillary had barely won the states she had won. Then it wasn't she didn't have any landslides. Now, it's she can't win the election. You sound like the Bush administration trying to justify invading Iraq.
And as to your claim that she can't win the election, latest polling shows that she beats McCain. Too bad for you...
ohio progressive @ 106:
Calling people morons and idiots is some sort of new campaign strategy for Hillary supporters. That'll win the votes much better than crying, or whining, or pointing and clapping, and spreading BS info on opponents.
There should be a re-vote in MI, paid for by the party.
Are you insane? It was not the party that broke the law, first of all. Second of all, a revote would cost about 40% of the DNC's cash on hand.
That's like me breaking your window, then insisting that you pay for repairs. FL and MI did what they did knowingly, and no one had a problem with it.
That is, no one had a problem with it until Hillary's coronation did not happen on schedule. Then all of the sudden there's talk of "disenfranchisement."
Gimme a break.
ohio progressive @ 106:
If you think Hillary has run a "rough" campaign, wait till fall...
I can hear the push poll call now "If you knew that Barack Hussein Obama had fathered an illegitimate black child would you be more likely or less likely to vote for him?"
Swashbuckler @ 111:
She can't even beat Obama for the nomination, so it's irrelevant if she could beat McCain. Did you ever take math? The ONLY way she can win, is if it is rigged.
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 112:
I call morons morons. Doesn't matter who they support.
chuck @ 113:
Nobody broke a "law"...
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 115:
The jury's still out on that...
It's not we who are "disenfranchising" the candidates. It's the states' Democratic committees.
The rules were laid out well in advance, and all candidates (back in the day when it was "all" rather than "both") agreed to them.
The DNC should not let the states push it around. Make an example now and it never becomes an issue again.
Ohio P
Obama, Edwards, and Richardson, removed their names from the Michigan ballot because of the DNC ruling, while Biden just decided not to put his name on the ballot. The ones below did not complete the paperwork to remove their names. Here are the results:
Clinton 55%
Uncommitted 40%
Dodd 1%
Gravel 0%
Who knows how it would turn out tomorrow?
Swashbuckler @ 116:
Look in mirror. Your posts today have proved what you are. I'm done responding to Trolls.
i say no to a recount in either state.
if the voters there want recourse, i suggest they start with recall campaigns against their legislature and of course the democratic party officials.
Swashbuckler @ 55:
so you're just a limpballs repug, eh?
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 115:
Btw, you moved the goal posts yet again (from "she can't win" to "she won't have a chance to win").
Your back must be hurting REALLY bad...
Swashbuckler @ 114:
i don't think it's been rough.
it's been dishonest.
and that won't work for mccain....
That's a bunch of crap. Why doesn't the Democratic Party just say right now they are going to GO REPUBLICAN AND APPOINT OBAMA.
As I have said I have filed a lawsuit with the ACLU and I am going to call and tell them to speed up the lawsuit. There is no reason that Hillary Clinton can not get the votes that were cast for her. This is sickening. THE PEOPLE OF THESE TWO STATES DID NOTHING WRONG THE OFFICIALS DID. They should be penalizied. Throw THEM out of the party.
anneyhussein @ 120:
Michigan HAS to be a re-vote.
McCain has a pretty good chance of winning if this divisive back biting continues. Good Job!!! (sarcasm)
AP - 2 minutes ago
WASHINGTON - The Federal Reserve said Friday that it has voted to endorse an arrangement to bolster troubled Bear Stearns Cos. and stands ready to provide extra resources to combat a serious credit crisis.
Oh wonderful now we'll have to look forward to $8 a gal gas, $5 for a load of wonder bread, and $7 for a gal of milk.
Whatever makes the most money for our brave billionaires who are leading the fight for freedom!
ohio progressive @ 125:
LOL!
Why not? The Straight Talk Express got permanently derailed in a Baghdad market...
anneyhussein @ 120:
I don't know how it would turn out, but I doubt Hillary would get 55% to Uncommitted's 40%. That guy has run a great campaign...
pissed off patricia @ 73:
It has to be AOK with Obama. He can decide if he thinks that Clinton will probably take that many delegates in Florida if there were another election. If he thinks it is fair then so be it. Michigan 50/50? Again it is up to Obama. I will see what he thinks.
L.A. Confidential @ 129:
While I'm not thrilled with the idea of helping out these companies, things would be worse (in the short run at least) if they weren't helped. That $8 gas could be $12. Would that be better?
To concerned Husseincanuck....CAN YOU COUNT. It takes 2,025 delegates. I thing obama the wanta be annoited one only has 1,500 or so.....he needs over 500 where is '''HE''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''GOING TO GET THEM. It you take away all the illegal caucus he stole he would have jack. But then he does one thing he gives the good old boy club a substitute for viagra....
Swashbuckler @ 134:
Were going broke. And the world knows it.
Nobody Asked Me, But...
Swashbuckler @ 134:
I don't know what a load of wonder bread is, but I'm pretty sure I don't want it...
Captain Kangaroo @ 133:
Both the Obama and Clinton campaigns have tacitly admitted they aren't really interested in fair, they're interested in what helps them. Sad, when Dem candidates are willing to disenfranchise voters to help themselves...
Why not just split the delegates 50/50. This would seat the delegates and give Florida and Michigan a voice. To try and run new votes would be very expensive and very prone to problems. Given Florida's history of screwing up the voting process over the last 8 years, I would NOT have much confidence in a mail in vote.
Just divide the delegates, seat them and tell them to shut up! The made their bed, why should anyone go out of their way to fix it for them.
Janet Hussein @ 10:
Only Obama and Edwards took their names off the ballot. The Pledge didn't say they had to take their name off the ballot. Quit spewing when you don't know what you are talking about. You are just using it as another chance to throw rocks at Hillary Clinton. And you would prefer that voters in Michigan and Florida don't get to have their votes counted in order to do so. Who is acting Rovian and Republican?
Marge @ 135:
Seriously POTD....Fox is calling, they want you to be an analyst.
Cesca1 @ 140:
Yeah, who cares what the voters of those states actually think, right?
ConcernedHusseinCanuck @ 115:
Not true.
She trails in pledged delegates. But she's come up with a plan to scrape some of those away. (Check TPM for updates on her strategy.)
She's going to try to gain in Pennsylvania. She'll do everything possible to grab Michigan and Florida.
And then her kitchen-sink policy, or the Two-Minute Warning in comment above, will have a floudering Obama so concussed from all the cheapshots to the testicles and back of the head, that the Super-Delegates will buy Hillary's propaganda that Obama is damaged goods. Sports fans know it's sometimes better to start a relief pitcher in a World Series game rather than send your Ace to the mound with a broken pitching hand. Even fans of the squared-circle know that, Mean Gene!
It's a long-shot. But Hillary is ready to break the bank making the wager, even if that means burning down the Democratic Party in an attempt to nobble her opponent.
Bad and Super Bad @ 138:
Thats one Loaf of sliced play dough.
Captain Kangaroo @ 133:
Obama has said in the past that he will adhere to whatever the party chiefs decide. You're correct -- each candidate must agree to whatever the solution is, so we'll see if he changes his mind when given a choice at this stage.
kenoshaMarge @ 141:
According to KO (who admittedly is rather biased in all this), the candidates pledged to not participate in the Michigan election. I think it is reasonable to conclude that meant taking one's name off the ballot. Strike against Hillary for that.
L.A. Confidential @ 33:
Amen. I'd hoped C&L wouldn't become another O'Love Zone but it looks like it has. Anyway, Dems whining about rules is truly funny-- I thought it was the GOPers who were the law and order party.
A revote is the only fair solution.
Edwards for President.
Janet Hussein @ 10:
ALL the dem candidates were on the FL ballot.
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