What Happened at Abu Ghraib: <i>'Standard Operating Procedure'</i>
By Bill W. Tuesday Apr 15, 2008 11:50am
The Situation Room takes a look at the upcoming documentary Standard Operating Procedure by Errol Morris (The Fog of War, The Thin Blue Line) which examines the incidents of abuse and torture at the Abu Ghraib prison.
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More videos from the film via The New Yorker, in which Sy Hersh first broke the story of the US's gulag in Iraq.
I look forward to seeing how complete and honest an account of what went on this film is. It looks promising. I'm sure Janis Karpinski will do her part to make sure they set the record straight. Also, I'm pretty sure I know where the film's title comes from:
Army documents show. After the overthrow of Saddam Hussein in April 2003, U.S. soldiers and intelligence personnel began to use these techniques in Iraq, where they were informally "accepted as SOP [standard operating procedure] by newly arrived interrogators," according to an August 2004 report on Abu Ghraib abuses by Maj. Gen. George R. Fay. By September 2003, Gen. Geoffrey Miller had arrived at Abu Ghraib, allegedly with a mandate to "Gitmo-ize" interrogation procedures at the prison.
In light of the recent revelations that torture techniques were discussed and approved in meetings by the National Security Council’s Principals Committee, a group that included Vice President Cheney, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Donald Rumsfeld, George Tenet, John Ashcroft, and that President Bush admits he was fully aware of them, I think the Pentagon spokesman's statement at the end of the CNN report that there was never "any government policy that directed, encouraged, or condoned abuse" is not only demonstrably false, it shows what a sham the military's investigation into the matter was. Janis Karpinski was right all along.
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Impeach and indict!
INVESTIGATE, INDICT, IMPEACH, IMPRISON
Our national shame will endure for a generation.
And it's high time we make sure people understand: This happened under the GOP. America's own Nazi party. Fuck yeah, I said that. Godwin, kiss my ass. It's true.
Bad apples: the WH cabal.
I hope all those that enable this Administration are happy with themselves.
YOU have betrayed the United States and all she has stood for.
A pox on all of you.
well, if it's errol morris, you know it's gonna be good.
Any nation that will torture the 'enemy' in wartime, and arrogantly asserts it has the right to use torture, WILL find excuses to torture its own citizens....
I'm sure Blacwater will eventually be used tom torture US citizens, and will be given a pass....
Here is a question- The Republicans claim to love the troops- but by torturing the Iraqis, they send an invitation for them to torture captured US troops. What cant the repugs see this????????
Of course it was SOP. Also, most of the hardcore military types I know (mostly marines) say that they see nothing wrong with the actions at Abu Ghraib.
Recently reading an article about this film, I was most suprised by the info that children and wives of the "enemy combatants" were also kept in Abu Ghraib. I am a huge fan of Errol Morris and I am sure that this film excellent and hopefully open the eyes of everyone who thinks that this is Standard Operating Procedure.
Still waiting for the outrage.
Standard Operational Procedure: A SOP for the public.
More proof that under the Bush Regime our military has become the fascist Nazis our fathers and grandfathers once fought and died, to defeat this type of governmental abuse! We have become what we started out to defeat! Heil Bush!
Impeachment is to good for Bush$Co
yeah, even you don't know what happened at abu ghraib. This video of a Marine confessing what happened, what HE did as a guard in abu ghraib. well, here it is: they intentionally grabbed underaged girls and were systematically raped. don't believe me? watch the video.
Condoning torture is turning our our country into animals.
L.A. Confidential @ 9:
Me too. When I first saw those pictures, first I cried, then I was sure that this was the catalyst that would enrage the public enough to do something. After waiting months, now years for the outrage, something inside me died. That's probably when I gave up on America.
this is such a travesty and an outrage... too bad the msm nor the congress seem to think the same.
psst dems in congress: fucking do something.
*america yawns*
You say "...I look forward to seeing how complete and honest ..."
But how will we ever know how complete and how honest the story is?
Bushco -- doing the Nazis proud since 1933!
post 11 I was going to say generally the same with the addition of The "greatest generation" and their willingness to vote for Mccrazy.
They lived through the depression and fought Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany and now have the same things going on in this country but then again they get their news from MSM who cover up most of this.
Maybe that generation wasn't that great and the ones that followed haven't lived up to their promise either
FOX is State Sponsored TV @ 13:
This is and always has been a violent country. Abu Ghaib is one of many examples of it.
whatever happened to the, even more, disturbing videos from abu ghraib?
america: we torture, so?
navyswan @ 7:
I wonder if they won't mind if it was SOP for the enemy to do unspeakable things then ?
navyswan @ 14:
When the President does it, it isn't illegal.
When brown people are the victims, no one cares.
Heh, we hung brown people from trees for half a century in THIS country before anyone started to give a shit.
Samson- @ 20:
They are behind lock and key. That is if they haven't been destroyed by now, like the tapes of the CIA torturing people.
Don't allow this trivial shit to distract you.....that colored boy called you "bitter".
Samson- @ 20:
They're gonna be released as a box set, exclusive to QVC.
It's been frequently noted how the US military has declined to discipline or prosecute those higher up the food chain i.e. the generals for Abu Graib and elsewhere. I also would like to point out that, between Abu Ghraib Commander Colonel Janis Karpinski and Gitmo staff judge advocate Lt. Colonel Diane Beaver, the manly men of the Bush Administration and the US military fraternity ensured that women would be stuck holding the bag for their depraved indifference to human rights.
-AF
Andrew Sullivan Is A Fraud
navyswan @ 23:
i would bet my ham sandwich that cheney has a copy. i can envision him watching them for entertainment, a la uday hussein
There's also an element seldom discussed of... you want to fu*k with the USA? Okay we'll teach you a lesson you will never EVER forget.
Obviously it's long past time we start pulling in the reins though. But unfortunately this thing has become too profitable for the Offense Industry.
L.A. Confidential @ 28:
Offense business... I like that. We have not been in the business of defense in a long, long time.
navyswan @ 29:
It should now be called The U.S. Department of Offense
navyswan @ 29:
me too, good stuff.
and, the dept of defense should go back to its original and accurate name, too.
Threevok @ 6:
Many of the M.P.'s at AG were cops in "civilian" life and learned their interrogation techniques here in the U.S. After an investigation which just happened to end after the statute of limitations had run, Lt. Jon Burge, and others in the Chicago Police Department, were found to have committed numerous acts of torture. A Northwestern University study of that investigation found torture to be "widespread and systematic" in the police department.
FOX is State Sponsored TV @ 13:
No, your people, as with all human beings, are already animals.
This turns animals into monsters.
L.A. Confidential @ 30:
Agreed. Our "foreign policy" is pretty damn offensive. P.U. it stinks.
Don't forget to tell Congress what you think.
PS The ACLU site has an option that allows you to enter your information for the petition, but doesn't save the information - in case you are worried about spam etc.
What does this do to the American claim that we are the world's 'bastion of freedom'?
I heard one right wing radio host argue that our ability to use torture PROTECTS freedom.
In the real world, torture=the absense of freedom.
I'm left to wonder how the right wing defines the word 'freedom'.
fiver @ 32:
That human rights scandal here in Chicago is ongoing, costing us millions of dollars in compensatory damages and having numerous "guilt by torture" cases thrown out. I hope the many innocent Iraqis sue the hell of of this government and expose the evil of the Bush crew.
Hey Left&Left!
I'm in Oregon now, but I'm from East Rogers Park on the far North Side.
so .. who are the real "terrorists" ?
These are the same techniques the US used on the Native Americans, on the Filipinos (when "we" "liberated" them from Spain), on the VietNamese, in ElSalvador, in the Shah's prisons and the American Embassy in Iran when the Shah was "our" man .. and in many US prisons today ..
The only real difference is we had pictures of the torture at Abu Ghraib a few months after the events .. not "just" written descriptions years later ..
GW Bush really hasn't done anything that the Fascist Cabal hasn't done before - he and his administration have just been much more blatant about it.
Waterboarding saved lives. You know what real torture is. It is being on your knees wating to be beheaded like Dan Pearl and others. THAT IS TORTURE!!!! YOU NEED TO WAKE UP
John Rone @ 36:
it starts to clue american citizens as to why the majority of the world saw through our BS claim as the 'bastion of freedom' decades and decades ago.
americans, innocently, believe that we do promote democracy, and use the power of our nation to spread freedom. so naive.
we need to wake the fuck up.
our foreign policy is NOT in our national interest. if we were really to be serious about the war on "terror" we would attack our own foreign policy.
neocons: empire through the military (cheney)
neoliberals: empire through the economy (clinton)
united states of blowback
Shame on the whole fucking lot of you. God damn America. God DAMN america.
After reading the Karpinski article on truthout, I have come to a conclusion about this administration. If we, the people of America, care at all about a beter world, we need to hold these people publicly accountable. We need a Nurenberg-style trial for those six people in the torture meetings and the people who were instrumental in implementing this. We should hold this trial in Iraq, and the death penalty should be in play.
I want to see Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Ashcroft, Rice, Tenet, Powell, Gonzales, Yoo, Addington, and all those in the chain of command of Abu Ghraib in a public trial a la Saddam Hussein in Iraq. I do not support the death penalty, but who am I to tell the people of Iraq that these people shouldn't be punished by any conceivably legitimate punishment after a fair trial.
We are America. If we are to live up to our lofty aspirations, we need this.
Steve @ 40:
Do you have any evidence that waterboarding saved lives? I think Khalid Shiek Mohammed admitted to kidnapping the Lindberg baby after his "enhanced interrogation."
Yes, of course the killing of Daniel Pearl was a monstrous act. What does one thing have to do with the other?
Samson- @ 41:
That is a good point.
just out of curiosity, would a free trade agreement that included protections for labor rights and environmental protection be different? I have always espoused adding these protections to existing trade agreements as a solution, but is the power dynamic between developed and developing countries so imbalanced that even the ammended agreement would be unfair? I don't know enough about economics or trade to answer that.
MountainMan23 @ 39:
Yeah. I remember that excuse during Watergate.
"Oh, all President's have done it. Nixon wasn't the first. He simply got caught".
War criminals, all.
Liberal AND Proud @ 46:
The terrorists are anyone who doesn't obey....
So if US troops kick down a door and kill a family, family members are deemed terrorists if they try and defend themselves.
Steve @ 40:
Torture has saved lives? Where? When? I hope you understand that television shows don't count.
Torture has been around for thousands of years and two things have become quite clear:
1. Torture is useless for intelligence gathering; and
2. Torture is very useful for obtaining confessions.
So if you want to keep a population afraid (of terrorists or witches), by all means use it. But don't pretend you're saving lives. Unless, of course, you'd like to point out one life that has been saved by torture. Just one in the last five thousand years. Go ahead Steve, give it a shot.
The Geneva Convention problem.
I am in no way condoning the Bush administration; they shouldn't be in the mid-east in the first place. But how can you fight an enemy that doesn't play by the rules. The enemies the U.S. army faces, cut peoples heads off, blow civilians up, and generally break every rule in the convention. Bush has responded by trying to bend the rules as far as he can, and while he may have accomplished something in terms of battling Al Qaeda, he has lost just about everything in the eyes of the world.
The Geneva Convention doesn't have a set of rules for dealing with an enemy that cheats, except for stringing them up after the war is settled. The U.S. hung Japanese that participated in water boarding. So I guess they could hang the little pieces of what is left of a suicide bomber if they decide to apply the Convention. But then they should apply it to everyone that broke the rules. Would this mean that they would have to hang Rumsfeld for either the crimes he authorized in Iraq, or for his involvement in getting aspartame approved?
Anyway the moral is; The Bush Administrations only obstacle, is to make the enemy seem so vile that the U.S. public will not be morally outraged by its governments abuse of the Geneva Convention. Bush and his gang are not afraid of the Convention, as they know that it is only applied to those that are powerless.
Steve @ 41:
Didn't the Japanese torture American POWs, and the Americans insisted it was torture? What happens if US troops are captured and water boarded? Is that torture? I guess its torture if anyone BUT the US does it...
WHAT is wrong with you people? The worst thing anyone did was put these killers in their underwear and look stupid standing beside the pile. No one was beat up or killed. Just a bunch of jerks making fun of prisioners. It was wrong, but WTF the Chinese are killing 1000s just for their kidneys, Africans are killing 1000s for no good reason, and Cuba, China and other "people's paradises" imprison and torture - real torture - tens of 1000s. You are supporting slavery and torture by wearing and buying products made in China. GET A REAL EDUCATION, STOP LISTENING TO THE LEFT. And another thing both parties in the US are corrupt murders, so stop thinking O-bama and Hillary Stalin Clinton will save you. Go find third party independents to elect. I would not vote for a Republican or Democrat with a gun to my head. WAKE UP! Take the red pill!!!!!
Brainfreeze!
I meant to write didn't the japanese waterboard US troops on WW2?
fiver @ 50:
Torture saved lives?
I am hearg this more and more from the right..'The ability to torture will protect freedom'.
Its a very dangerous slippery slope- If people think torture protects freedom, do they favor torturing American citizens?
I hope everyone who defends this shit or ever thought it was a good idea understands there will be hell to pay over it for all the principles who pushed it, condoned it, encouranged it. Either sooner now and/or later, probably both.. count on it. And those troops the GOP claims to love and honor so much??? They will most likely be among the first to pay the real freight on this abomination and stain on our reputation and culture. And the reality is, that part is probably already happening. I ain't all that biblical but I do know evil begets evil and this torturing shit we've indulged in? It ain't nothin but pure evil without reason or honor. It started with the oval office and flowed right on down from the top of the government till it is now staring us all in the face. It stinks! There is no finessing it, there is no rationalizing it. It is what it is, a state sanctioned policy of torture that is a black stain that will taint this nation for generations. It is wrong and it is destroying us. It needs to be halted NOW, and repudiated.. And those responsible for fostering and encouraging it officially and unofficially? They need to be held accountable for it....................JD
FreeThinker @ 53:
You are full of shit. There were people beat up and killed. And as far as the pictures, they only released the most sanitized photos and videos to the public. The much worse abuses are being kept from being released because they know the reaction it would cause.
MountainMan23 @ 40:
And so....is it OK by you to torture?
John Rone @ 55:
Just the "bad guys."
Old Billy Hussein @ 45:
first off, drop "free" from that. to me that is a nonstarter, a policital yum-yum dropped in there to make everyone feel better as they watch their standard of living drop, as they see the income disparity grow to medieval levels, etc. "hey, my wages have gone down, as the cost of living increases, but at least we have 'free' trade."
secondly, i am an adherent of world system theory. and, yes, adding labor and environmental protection is a MUST in ANY trade deal. i just don't see that happening.
ya see, in the capitalist world system (which EVERY country is a player in--even cuba) there is a need for the orwellian-named 'developing countries.' ]orwellian because the system tries to ensure that these countries NEVER develop]. and trade deals are hashed out, generally, to the detriment of these 'developing' countries, thanks IMF!! This is neoliberalism.
And neoliberalism functions as neocolonialism, as it attempts to tie the hands of leaders of countries, demanding certain—corporate-friendly/people unfriendly—policies be enacted. This is facilitated through loans and financial assistance for developing countries, used as blackmail to feed corporate greed. Neoliberalism is the late 20th–early 21st century strategy for core countries’ domination and exploitation of peripheral countries, for corporate financial gain. Which, must be noted, core countries’ policies, domestic and foreign, are dictated, by and large, by corporate demands.
The tool for economic domination, for the past several decades, has been the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank, as they effectively control domestic policy in sovereign states, even supposed democratic nations. The goal of these two institutions, since the 1980’s, has not been the amelioration of global instability, but the single-minded goal of driving up corporate profits. The effects of such policies on the citizens, impacted by the economic restructuring, are rarely considered, if at all.
So, again, environmental and labor protections are vital, but they run counter to the overall strategy… after all that is generally why we go to those countries anyway.
FreeThinker @ 53:
No. You are wrong.
The Abu Ghraib Files
http://www.salon.com/news/abu_ghraib/2006/03/14/chapter_5/index.html
does anyone know if you can buy the download or dvd?
thanx,
david
http://www.davidhiltonmusic.com
FreeThinker @ 53:
We never have gotten the full story of what really happened at Abu Ghraib, but al-Jamadi was murdered and no one was ever prosecuted for it, and that wasn't all:
oops, forgot the link to the Lindsey Graham quote.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_con...
FreeThinker @ 53:
You little pussy. You know damn well you would shit on yourself and faint on to your own feces if you even dreamed of yourself being tortured. I didn't think people like you came out of the woods any longer.
In response to navyswan (?) How convenient, you can allude to things that are only speculation. All the crap you reference is "what ifs" from people that only blame America and excuse the real "bad actors" in the world. Coulda, shoulda, maybe, what bullshit from you. Go to Cuba and protest the imprisonment of political prisoners, or China and see if you get to post your crap there. The BAD actions of a VERY small number of soldiers pale in comparison to the dozens of groups and governments in the world that kill and torture on a massive scale. At least we admit it and do something about it. I know you want to torture and kill the dumb asses that did this, but sorry, you can't.
navyswan @ 57:
freethinker, what an ironic name for a brainwashed one.
and, like navyswan wrote, people have died. of course you don't know that.
here is one of those deaths:
"Jamadi was interrogated there for nearly an hour and a half. Eyewitnesses interviewed by CIA investigators say Jamadi was seated and stripped, and cold water was poured over him. A Navy SEAL said at one point, the interrogator leaned into a pressure point on Jamadi's chest with his foreman.
Jamadi was then moved to Abu Ghraib for further interrogation. At the prison, MPs stretched Jamadi's arms directly behind him and shackled his wrists to window bars. If the arms bear the full weight of the body, the position can be extremely painful. But MPs later told CIA investigators that Jamadi had been given enough slack to kneel or stand.
During this new round of questioning by CIA agents, Jamadi slumped forward, with his weight on his shackled wrists. MPs, while trying to reposition Jamadi, discovered he was dead. His death occurred within five-and-a-half hours of his capture.
Death Ruled a 'Homicide'
Nearly two years later, the CIA is still investigating Jamadi's death. A military autopsy labeled his death a homicide, due to "blunt force trauma to the torso complicated by compromised respiration."
Autopsy photos show lacerations and multiple bruises on Jamadi's feet, thighs and arms. His most significant injuries -- five broken ribs -- are not visible in the photos. There were no bruises in that area, leading military medical examiners to say that the fractures were probably caused by a slow, deliberate application of force, such as someone kneeling on his chest."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4977986
FreeThinker @ 53:
What's wrong with YOU? Why do you think coming to a left leaning website and parroting right wing and torture apologists' bullshit talking points would get anyone to see this your way?
You aren't a free thinker at all. That's like Princess Tiny Meat calling himself 'Big Penis.' If you have to blab about it, it ain't true.
FreeThinker @ 66:
you. are. ignorant.
April 2008
4/1/2008 - A secret memo authored by the Department of Justice (DOJ) asserting that President Bush has unlimited power to order brutal interrogations to extract information from detainees was declassified today as a result of Freedom of Information Act lawsuit. The memo, written by John Yoo, then a deputy at the DOJ’s Office of Legal Counsel (OLC), was sent to the Defense Department in March 2003.
[Deleted. Abusive. Read the commenting policy. If you cannot abide by our very simple rules, you will not be allowed to post here any more-Sitemonitor]
This is really interesting but......... breaking news Brittney did something wacky on camera and that's waaaaay more important. Gotta go!!
FreeThinker @ 66:
According to the pentagon, between October 2001 and March 2005, 98 detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan died in custody, of which 34 were ruled homicide. That is according to the pentagon, so you can be assured its an under-estimate.
I don't want to torture or kill anyone.
You aren't a thinker at all, are you?
I feel sorry for most of the people on this site. They are in a dream world. It is amazing to me how you twist words and free expression. You use words like bullshit etc. You don't know how to have an intellegent debate. Thank God for the USA. Liberals are taking us to a path of destruction. You are taking all things that made this country great and hating those values. Liberals controlled congress for forty years and gave us so many new programs. We still have poverty etc. Liberals don't want a person to succeed. They would lose their vote. Kennedy said ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what can you do for your country. Liberals have reversed this saying. Let government controll your whole life. It is a sad joke. And thank god for waterboarding it did say lives, just like the wire taps. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.
miss kitty, I am not what you call a right wing person, I don't like Repubs or Dems. They are all bull. I also have seen people's republics and other utopian dumps up close too. They are not pretty. Blabbing about what? Thinking for yourself instead of repeating what some rich, primpy,spoiled lefty on a blog or TV tells you? I would not waste my time watching Fox as you think I do. I just spent a lot of time dealing with reality in really shitty places in the world. When I get back to the US, which is not perfect, remember we are on Earth, not paradise, it is better than anywhere I have spent time. I just bothers me to see whiney Americans that have it made complain endlessly on the internet. I guess the only good thing is that you are not wasting paper and killing trees doing this. Sorry, got to get back to work, lunch over. All you compainers can stay here getting your rocks off in your PJs.
All it takes is one person to jerk your chains a little and look at you. Towel off and GET A JOB!
Steve @ 73:
LOL
colbert, is that you???
Steve @ 73:
Still can't come up with even one example of a life saved by torture? And no one has a problem with wiretaps; those who support the Bill of Rights just want a warrant.
FreeThinker @ 74:
You have no idea-not even a glimmer of who I am or from where I get my info or whether or not I'm employed. I see you trying your damnedest to insult me, but really, you don't have the power.
You're making bad assumptions based on what others have told you to think-Stop listening to the left, take the red pill? You ARE a right winger and every fibre of each of your posts betray that-you are walking that talk.
Enjoy your lunch. Many people in the US can't afford lunch.
We know that our government just lies and lies, to us, to the world. When we have evidence to prove so, what are we going to do about it. Next I expect lawsuits from those enlisted personnel court marshaled and imprisoned for Abu Ghraib to be filing civil suits against us for gazillions.
FreeThinker @ 74:
your purposeful ignorance is startling and dismaying.
maybe take some time to think just how and why we are a privleged nation. and before you spout of more nonsensical blather-bobs, consider the following countries and our involvement with them:
guatemala
iran
el salvador
chile
bolivia
uganda
Botha's South Africa
duvalier's Haiti
saudi arabia
ferdinand's phillipines
Mobutu Sese Seko's zaire
noriega's panama
Suharto's indonesia
i could continue, just my fingers are getting tired.
*if you have NO idea why i list these countries then you have no place discussing grown-up topics.
Steve @ 40:
Funny you should mention Dan Pearl. The Daniel Pearl Foundation was set up in his honor by his friends and family to "continue Danny's mission and to address the root causes of this tragedy, in the spirit, style, and principles that shaped Danny's work and character. These principles include uncompromised objectivity and integrity; insightful and unconventional perspective; tolerance and respect for people of all cultures; unshaken belief in the effectiveness of education and communication; and the love of music, humor, and friendship."
In stark contrast to their display of real strength and courage, you elect to proudly stand shoulder to shoulder with such greats as the Kempeitai, the Gestapo, the Khmer Rouge, General Augusto Pinochet and Tomas de Torquemada. The unfortunate fact you have the audacity to use the name of Dan Pearl as though you've proven something (which you unwittingly have) shows that the Daniel Pearl Foundation sadly has some work ahead of it.
Go on, tell me again from within that feverish delirious state you saw fit to haphazardly label as "awake" that I need to wake up so that I can laugh in your face, you sorry little man.
Yes master, you are right and all knowing. Just keep filling my data banks with the info you want me to register. I will obey all your commands and do all your bidding.
Warning!! Warning!! Danger Will Robinson!!
Sorry for the interruption, please continue your data dump. BEEEEP.
Signed, iRobot
Steve @ 73:
Well, well, we've got yet another parrot joining us today.
Liberals are taking us to a path of destruction. I didn't know Busholini was a liberal. Who pissed away the biggest surplus in the nation's history and turned it into the biggest deficit in our history? Who gave tax cuts to the wealthiest of the wealthy? Who has let deregulation cause the economic meltdown we're now suffering?
And thank god for waterboarding it did say lives, just like the wire taps. And you know this HOW? Oh yeah, Warpig told you so. Or Limbaugh or Hannity or some other neocontagion.
I think it's YOU who needs to post some facts.
FreeThinker @ 81:
translation: you are waaaaaaaaaaay above your head, and woefully uninformed.
why don't you go back to your people magazine and let the adults talk. thanks.
[Free Thinker. I told you to read the commenting policy. Handle changing-not allowed. I guess you thought you knew it all when you stopped in-Sitemonitor]
Steve @ 73:
Funny. We all feel sorry for people like you.
FreeThinker @ 66:
Look at comment 63 and 64.
Steve @ 41:
Waterboarding saved lives? Which lives? Where?
Show me irrefutable proof that anything Ramzi bin al-Shibh or Abu Zippitydoodah gave us that turned the tide anywhere in the fight against terrorism. Prove to me we're fighting an enemy so abysmally stupid that a guy we've had in the hole for over five years will still have pertinent, useful operations plans and intelligence.
You're the one who needs to wake up. Life ain't an episode of 24.
Torture is having to listen to idiots like you dictate a foolish and irresponsible foreign policy that has done nothing but bury us in debt and push our military - as good a force as you'll find on the planet - to the breaking point.
Inbrednonbeliever @ 87:
The strange thing about those on the left (at least it seems strange to those on the authoritarian right), is that we don't require "leaders" to tell us what to think.
Is it true that the former KGB torture chambers have now been franchised as Leather Castles?
Inbrednonbeliever @ 84:
Yes, because all of those sources discuss torture and war crimes. Wait...I thought they were just covering the latest Obama comments.
Funny, with enough sock puppeting the 29%'ers could seem like 33 or 34%.
Steve @ 73:
I'm ex-Air Force, Edwards AFB, 1925 Communications Squadron and worked in the Telecommunications Center. I had a Top Secret Clearance, occassionally encoded and decoded Top Secret messages, some on the Abrams M-1 Army tank. They tried to pull me into Intelligence twice. I had to sign a paper swearing me to secrecy for the next 10 years when I was Honorably Discharged. Everytime I moved in that 10 year period, I had to let the Air Force know where I was. Since then I've gotten an Associate in Business, a Bachelor Degree in Interdisciplary Studies (Majored in Political Science and Minored in Arts & Humanities), and got a second Associate in Paralegal Studies. I graduated Dean's List, Cum Laude, Phi Theta Kappa and Golden Key.
I also got a BS in BS.
FreeThinker, are you trying to race Steve to the bottom of the food chain?
Loonie @ 93:
Is there a bottom to the defecation chain?
ysbaddaden @ 94:
Dung beetles?
fiver @ 95:
Oh yes, the punk rock version of the Beatles
Or was that Siouxsie and the Banshees?
Hot off the presses from Robert Greenwald's "Brave New Films"...Condi Must Go:
http://bravenewfilms.org/watch/22600162/35714?utm_source=rgemail
Psssstttt.....Do something......
Sy Hersh says the tactic of sexually humiliating Muslim men had to come down from the highest levels in the administration. He further add that this is something that outrages the Muslim world and that they will not forgive us.
"The worst thing anyone did was put these killers in their underwear and look stupid standing beside the pile. No one was beat up or killed. " Uh, no. The worst things that were done included torturing people to death, torturing people into insanity, and repeatedly raping children. Get your facts in order before you try to lecture us. It's all documented, so just look it up fool.
Even if what you claim - parading people in their underwear - were the worst thing we did, it would still be beneath us if we want to be what we claim to be. Imitating a bunch of stone age terrorists is not exactly how you beat them - it's how you lose to them.
Steve@73 AND 41;
Jesus Christ! What a mouthful of tripe.. Get help dude..you need it...............JD
"it starts to clue american citizens as to why the majority of the world saw through our BS claim as the ‘bastion of freedom’ decades and decades ago.
americans, innocently, believe that we do promote democracy, and use the power of our nation to spread freedom. so naive."
Well, not so fast there. Our reputation comes and goes.
Downhill after the Spanish American War. But then again, Spain, which raped, murdered, and enslaved the Americas like no one else, was not seen as much better. Still, as Mark Twain said, we pacified the Filipinos and buried them.
Uphill during FDR and Truman - we dealt honorably with Cardenas, beat back the Fascists, rebuilt our former enemies instead of punishing them, and again dealt honorably with Saudi Arabia in oil agreements, so much so that Mossadegh wanted the US to have access to Iran's oil instead of Britain (under Truman; under Ike's Republican dirty tricksters we ended up helping the Brits throw him out).
Under Reagan -- the Great Fear returned to Latin America. Under Clinton, we helped broker peace in Ireland and saved Kosovo from genocide.
There is a pattern here.
Samson- @ 79:
Don't forget the "Phoenix Program" during the Vietnam War.
"We do not torture." Repeat as necessary.
74 FreeThinker Says: miss kitty, I am not what you call a right wing person, I don’t like Repubs or Dems. They are all bull. I also have seen people’s republics and other utopian dumps up close too. They are not pretty. Blabbing about what? Thinking for yourself instead of repeating what some rich, primpy,spoiled lefty on a blog or TV tells you? I would not waste my time watching Fox as you think I do. I just spent a lot of time dealing with reality in really shitty places in the world. When I get back to the US, which is not perfect, remember we are on Earth, not paradise, it is better than anywhere I have spent time. I just bothers me to see whiney Americans that have it made complain endlessly on the internet. I guess the only good thing is that you are not wasting paper and killing trees doing this. Sorry, got to get back to work, lunch over. All you compainers can stay here getting your rocks off in your PJs.
All it takes is one person to jerk your chains a little and look at you. Towel off and GET A JOB!
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H-O-L-Y! You've got some serious issues, there, bro! You'd best deal with them before they hasten your demise. I live overseas, have two jobs and have been to many of these "horrid" places you refer to. (They are often quite lovely, if you know how to look.) You're just another brainwashed fucking American that can't see beyond the end of your nose, and is unable to shake your pride in yourself. Very unattractive.
73 Steve Says: I feel sorry for most of the people on this site. They are in a dream world. It is amazing to me how you twist words and free expression. You use words like bullshit etc. You don’t know how to have an intellegent debate. Thank God for the USA. Liberals are taking us to a path of destruction. You are taking all things that made this country great and hating those values. Liberals controlled congress for forty years and gave us so many new programs. We still have poverty etc. Liberals don’t want a person to succeed. They would lose their vote. Kennedy said ask not what your country can do for you, but ask what can you do for your country. Liberals have reversed this saying. Let government controll your whole life. It is a sad joke. And thank god for waterboarding it did say lives, just like the wire taps. GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT.
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No need to feel sorry for me. Thanks anyway. By the way, you could brush up on your writing skills, and stay on topic. Your gibberish is hard to follow.
How could anyone think that there wasn't a cover-up going on at Abu Ghraib when the highest ranking person to do jail time over that entire mess was an E-5?
There isn't a person with military service in this country that doesn't know that was bullshit.
You have those that know and are apalled, those that know but really don't care and those that know and wish they could have gotten in on the action (the former being the majority, I should add).
Gen. Karpinksi, and CPLs Grainer and England were the sacraficial lambs at Abu Ghraib. Rumsfeld should have been fired immediatley, if not jailed, for those crimes.
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