Stop-Lossed Soldier Refuses To Redeploy To Iraq
IVAW:
Sgt. Matthis Chiroux, who served in the Army until being honorably discharged last summer after over four years of service in Afghanistan, Japan, Europe and the Phillipines, today publicly announced his intention to refuse orders to deploy to Iraq.
Sgt. Chiroux made made his announcement in the Cannon House Office Building Rotunda after members of Iraq Veterans Against the War testified before the Congressional Progressive Caucus during Winter Soldier on the Hill. Sgt. Chiroux made the following statement to the press:
Good afternoon. My name is Sgt. Matthis Chiroux, and I served in the Army as a Photojournalist until being honorably discharged last summer after over four years of service in Afghanistan, Japan, Europe and the Philippines. As an Army journalist whose job it was to collect and filter servicemember's stories, I heard many stomach-churning testimonies of the horrors and crimes taking place in Iraq. For fear of retaliation from the military, I failed to report these crimes, but never again will I allow fear to silence me. Never again will I fail to stand. Read on...
Sgt. Chiroux believes the occupation of Iraq is illegal and unconstitutional, you can see his video message here. IAWA has set up a legal defense fund for Matthis, but the link isn't working at the moment. Please keep checking back to their site if you would like to donate.
Support the troops
and not the oops.
As ex-Navy this saddens me. I sympathize with him 100% but orders are orders and the military only works with a strong chain of command. There are avenues within the Army to challenge his order to deploy, and if those are orders are upheld, he should go. Sorry. That's the way life works.
To refuse deployment is to me a mind boggling decision. He could go to prison and what will get out of it? A dishonorable discharge and no change in the way things are done.
Be active, be political, but obey orders.
http://www.bumperactive.com/bumpersticker.jsp?id=3804
"Be active, be political, but obey orders."
Not if they are illegal, RTFM
I feel for the guy-- the stop loss program is an obvious back-door to avoid a draft, and tremendously unfair. He's also right on the occupation, but there's a slim chance of this ending well. Even if a democrat is elected and we pull out of Iraq, the new commander in chief would have to declare an amnesty for these cases.
Bush is committing one crime on top of another crime. I sure as hell hope Barack can straighten out this whole disaster.
"Support the troops.
Not the OOPPSS."
.
.
.
.
. nice, 99.
@navy guy:
If the orders are illegal or you will be forced to commit crimes by a deployment, then you are absolutely wrong. Disobeying orders is the only possible recourse. This isn't a case of someone on the battlefield disobeying orders and putting his fellow soldiers in danger. This is a guy who is saying, "I know this is wrong and illegal and I won't be party to it". Good for him.
It will take only a few minutes for the 'call-them-traitors-while-we-get-taxbreaks' crew to show up and denounce his lack of patriotism. Of course, few if any of those people will have ever served in the country's military.
Iraq will be put on trial on whether it is legal. He has two chances, slim and none. The military will stack the deck with officers who will be more than happy to convict no matter what the facts. The military has a long history of ignoring evidence and doing what they feel is good for the military.
Happy days. The GOP didn't hestitate to attack John Kerry who actually served with a draft-dodger incumbent. Only a damn fool would think that wouldn't happen here.
If he's still on reserve soldier status he has no choice, except perhaps by filing for conscientous objector status.
The only problem is I wouldn't be surprised that under our new fascist government and courts they'll go back to the pre-Vietnam war days definition that you can only file for such status if you belong to a recognized pacifist church like the Quakers.
Sgt York tried to file for CO status during WWI, but his church wasn't officially recognized. Then he turned into the greatest American hero of the war, but steadfastedly refused to cash in on it beyond accepting a nice farm from his state.
General_Rennenkampf @ 10:
boosh wasn't a draft dodger but a deserter who never served a proper term in the brig.
99Luf Balloons @ 4:
Exactly!! I couldn't have said this better 99Luf Balloons...
And Sgt. Matthis Chiroux, I applaud your courage and integrity.
ysbaddaden @ 11:
I don't know Y.
He has been Honorably Discharged.
I suppose it all depends on his contact. Mine was 3 active, 8 inactive. That's where they'll get him. On the inactive part.
Because, as I'm sure you know. They can call you back at anytime in the inactive phase of your contract.
But I have a feeling that the Military will let this slide,just to keep it quiet. They're not going to want this to blow up on them.
Chris:
orders are orders you say? it is precisely that kind of myopic thinking and blind servitude that allows abuses of all kinds to take place, whether in the military or in your job. it is always your duty to question authority, to challenge the thinking and decision making of those in higher positions. there are consequences to be sure, some severe, but in my own experience, I have yet to give even a seconds thought to what is of more import: my self respect, or following "orders." I have paid the price in terms of losing jobs, or failing to get deserved promotions. But my self respect remained intact, my ethics remained untarnished, and I could look myself in the mirror with a smile. and the consequences I have faced pale in comparison to some one like the Sgt. who is faced with the prospect of killing and being killed. He is a courageous man and should be applauded. with more like him in the world, the people in authority would soon learn their power goes only as far as it is lawful and moral.
orders are never orders. but sychophants are always sychophants.
How many are in a similar situation?
Sir! No Sir!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jULC3SCX9wE
right on! @ 13:
there is nothing illegal in your status going from inactive to active. that's just the way it is.
Sir! No Sir! (full movie)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5459669199356402963
Illegal orders are not enforceable, and cannot be obeyed. Nuremberg precedents establish that "superior orders" are no defense. The defendant has the obligation to prove that the orders were illegal. That's the point of the article: The service member alleges the orders are illegal. A decision to ignore that conclusion would subject him to a claim, "Despite concluding the orders were illegal, he still deployed and committed subsequent war crimes by refusing to make reports of other war crimes."
Orders cannotbe blindly followed when the reasonable person concludes those orders are illegal. The means to "challenge" these orders is not isolated to the army, but includes the court. However, the problem is on the Army's back to prosecute, not for the service member to make their case. Refusing to deploy means the Army must take the next step. The Army cannot "uphold" an occupation which has not been legalized nor enforced as lawful. There is no precedent for the US Army successfully prosecuting Lt Watada.
This is wrong and could be construed as poor legal advice:
Chris @ 2:
Disobey illegal orders. You can't argue that someone should, while in uniform, "be political". Active duty military personnel are not allowed to campaign on behalf of candidates. If you believe the war is lawful, why aren't you over there? He already has an honorable discharge. How many Nazis, out of fear of a "dishonorable" discharge continued to support war crimes?
14 mudshark
I should've said inactive, not reserve.
Dave @ 15:
Dave
Extremely well said. For a while, I had begun to wonder if I was the only one who realized that those in the military [as Justabill at #19 gives a nod to those who have said NO in the powerful film Sir! No Sir!] who have had the courage to say that they will no longer be a part of the war machine of the United States are the true heroes of this country, as opposed to those who blindly accept what the military and their government tells them to do, which is to kill innocent civilians in third world countries, all for the greater glory of the United States. As former Green Beret Donald Duncan eloquently stated in Sir! No Sir!: "I was doing it right but I wasn't doing right."
Oh yes, my contract was four active, two inactive. Total six years, but for some strange reason they wanted to know where I was for the next ten years after my discharge. Some people have suggested it may've been due to my security clearance.
Haulin' Oates @ 18:
Its the war in Iraq that is illegal. But you knew that was the point - smells like rhetoric.
Wow - the young man seems to show a great deal of conviction, courage, and as some might say stupidity, dishonor, or disloyalty. He's walking into the teeth of the machine. Does anyone care to wager just how much coverage his story won't get in the rest of the media?
Listen! you can hear the death threats against this guy at the rightwing sites.
ysbaddaden @ 23:
Shortly after I got out, The Iranian Hostage Crisis happened. I mean , Like less than 6 months after I got out.
Yeah, I was concerned.Very Concerned.
Haulin' Oates @ 18:
The critical part is following illegal orders, ie doing actions that break the word or spirit of the Geneva Convention,
its possible in a legal sense that merely deploying to Iraq is a 'War Crime', as the unprovoked invasion of Iraq was illegal in the first place.
ferrofluid @ 28:
You are assuming that an illegal war ever ends. I would argue an illegal war ends when the invader is removed.
Give Me Convenience @ 25:
Hes a US photo journalist ie media, I suspect the US MSM will cover this big time,
theres only a mere six months left for this lame duck abortion of a toothless administration, everybodys eagerly anticipating a new broom (to clean sweep) is the order of the day now.
At the very least the IRE (Investigative Reporters and Editors org) and associates will, too many journalists have died under suspicious circumstances in Iraq and Afghanistan.
There is nothing legal about the occupation, or most of what Bush has pushed during the last 7 years. The more people that stand up to it, the better. When legal recourse fails, the next step has to be civil disobedience. We're all hoping for CHANGE in November, but if we don't get it, the shit needs to hit the fan hard and fast!
anon @ 29:
When the money runs out they all leave, no matter what the most rabid racist republican or war mongering neocon wants, no money no pay no army.
ysbaddaden @ 12:
Either way, he never left the Lower 48, which Kerry emphatically did while serving in 'Nam.
Of course McCain and the Republicans have a more subtle 'leaving' strategy,
one thousand troops per year is the way they plan on doing it.
This is a soldier that I can support. I hope more follow his example, and the examples of others before him who chose to resist the illegal war, the slaughter of civilians, and the diminution of the Constitution.
Chris @ 2:
Playing online videogames and masturbating to the Military Channel is not the same as serving in the armed forces.
I really *hate* it when people make shit like this up.
And BTW as the Nüremberg trials showed, soldiers have the responsibility to disobey illegal orders. The "the boss told me to do it" defense did not apply then, and no matter how much Bush et al try to mimic their Nazi ancestors... it will not apply now.
You have hope ferrofluid and so do I. We're going to eviscerate the repugs in Nov, and we're going to scrape off all the Bushie slugs.
I have dreams of seeing bush, rove, rumsfield, etc in orange jumpsuits, but maybe I'm just a dreamer.
General_Rennenkampf @ 33:
as soon as the drug screen came in in the medical examinations, he tried to transfer to a state with no combat jets,
that failing he plain ol went missing ie deserted.
Its something like two years MIA.
Then you have the farcical situation where a drunken Chimpy is interviewed at the 1988 Republican conevention, and waffles on about how if the Texas ANG had been in in Vietnam , maybe maybe it might have turned out better.
As the deserter-in-chief didnt know as he want there much or at all int he latter days of his ANG duty, the US ANG was in Vietnam and so was his unit the 147th or at least qualifiying pilots from his unit, heck if GWB had finished his training he might have ended up there too.
PS; The video of a drunken Chimpy making a fool of himself at the 1988 RNC convention is up there on Youtube.
If this video clip had been played on US TV in 2000, he would have sunk without trace, back to Texas to clear up brush and pig muck.
General_Rennenkampf @ 33:
Desertion is an offense orders of magnitude more grave than draft dodging.
In fact deserting while at the same time being an staunch supporter of the war d'jour at that time... it is such a mixture of hypocrisy and treason that has really no term in the English language. Because I assume people through history consider that would never happen, as no human being could be so two faced and cowardly as to not warrant a specific term. But Bush, obviously, proved us all wrong.
ferrofluid @ 38:
Considering the historical US policy to letting rich white kids serve in a war, I'm not surprised the Chimp got away with it. What did surprise me was the kerfluffle created when that was outright stated.
StirFry @ 37:
A lot of good people had dreams, and a lot of hopeful people today have dreams and want where we live to be a happy place.
Theres no reason the US and the world needs 24/7/365 warfare, strife, hunger and poverty, the human race is an inventive type and theres resources enough to fed clothe educate and entertain the world.
Oh jeez, this is going to piss the gun toting rethugligans off. I hope this guy is good at dodging bullets since the rethugligans would rather use their guns at home than join the army and go fight in foreign lands.
The Dude @ 39:
Sociopath, Psychopathic, Republican all three terms are interchangeable.
emphasa @ 42:
there are three types of Republican, first you have the teenygopper basement dwellers, then the active scum, then the has been regretful and rose tinted world view types.
The active types are also interchangeable with the wider criminal sociopath element in society.
Chris @ 2:
While I appreciate the care and effort you made in presenting your side of the argument, I couldn't disagree more with your stand. There are times when obeying orders is absolutely the right thing to do: in the heat of battle is one.
But to say there are avenues within the army to challenge an order is ridiculous! Any military person knows how useless that is!! If he kept quiet he would be in Iraq without hesitation by his superiors.
The Nazi soldiers followed their "chain of command" without hesitation. Look where that got the world!!
This is an illegal war waged by an irresponsible Administration. Why should soldiers, who know this war is wrong, have to follow orders that make them feel like they are criminals too?
I salute Sgt Matthis Chiroux for his courage and bravery to take stand up to this war-mongering machine in Washington!!! He served 4 years and survived. He has done his share!!
ron Ft lauderale @ 45:
The soldiers in the My Lai incident were following their orders fervently - until US pilot Hugh Thompson turned his helicopters M60 machine guns on the US forces.
THAT is what an American soldier is.
ferrofluid @ 41:
Well said, brother
right on! @ 13:
Let's harkon back to Abu Ghariab, Those soldiers were tried and found guilty of following illegal orders. He is doing what he feels is right by not following what he feels is an unjust order. Let the army bring him to trial and have them prove the validity of the order to go fight in this war.
But he was honorably discharged. I don't know anything about the military, but doesn't that mean he is no longer a soldier? And thus isn't subject to being sent back to Iraq?
BobD @ 48:
It always amazes me that the individuals in the military are more willing to face the enemy in battle - and die, than to face their own in opposition in a court martial to an illegal and immoral war where they could be imprisoned.
Defense of the Constitution comes before the fealty to the President and the soldiers superiors order.
zugzug @ 8:
i feel bad for this guy but he just screwed himself for life. He's not gonna get a pardon; he gonna serve a couple of years in prison and have a record when he gets out. He making a dumb decision...he volunteered he wasn't drafted...maybe you pray for him, go see him in prison and help him get his life together when he gets out.
ferrofluid @ 44:
QFT. So true!!
Has the MSM mentioned this guy at all? (I don't watch TV these days so you all will have to fill me in...)
the issue is that they were able to call this guy back at all.
and the way they did it is thru the IRR.
there are people in the reserves AND active duty that haven't even been once..
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18988292/
http://www.army.mil/-news/2007/12/21/6717-army-to-tap-troops-not-yet-dep...
always a way to get out of a deployment if you are like the current president, meanwhile these folks in the IRR are once more into the breach.
The only way to stop it? go to a full mob, or finally impeach...(yeah right like thats gona happen)
LEts face it we got a war time economy now, the war aint going anywhere soon.
we just got to invest in Milo's corporation, and ride the profits out, its a catch 22
Chris @ 2:
Obeying a Warcriminal and participating in Warcrimes is itself no excuse. This kid is doing the right thing. These crimes only can continue if we are Civil and Obedient.
Fuck that. We need to dissent, to disagree, and not obey tyrants who rule through fear.
The Military of the US has the duty to have a coup on this government as they are removing democracy from the people and building camps, they torture and maim and murder. This is a warcrime and on the floor od the DoD these is a plaque that states that should the Geneva Conventions be broken it is a crime and the order must not be followed.
They WALK on the pledge they made. Sad.
these are the guys who should be lauded as the heroes of our times. God bless them. They will eventually see the fruits of their labours, but initially, they are going to be in for a lot of grief. We need to support him and those like him who have the courage to make a stand. Very few regardless of age would have that courage, the conviction yes, but not the courage to act on it. as i said, God bless him. ron.
Chris @ 2:
Hitler gave orders. Lots of orders. As a result over 50,000,000 people died in the War that followed.
Never again.
McCain the Liar @ 9:
No... We all know Occupation of a Foreign land is Illegal. It's called "Armed Aggression". Which is the supreme warcrime from which all others follow.
Refusing to go to War is good.
Stop loss is like credit card interest. The contract is fulfilled, but the big guy can change the terms on a whim, and the little guy has no leverage with which to bargain.
Stop loss is slavery.
Chris @ 2:
He was recalled after being discharged. After being seperated from active duty I had a 2 period where I was subject to recall, but that ended when I received my discharge 6 years after I enlisted.
justabill @ 17:
That video is awesome! Thanks for posting. I hope everyone takes a moment to watch it.
This is the reason the elite have not called martial law yet! Most military soldiers would revolt and they know it.
Sorry but I must also add that this brave soldier's message should be felt by all military personnnel as the America people would support deserters and soldiers refusing to fight because the people of this nation are AGAINST this illegal, immoral war and only those who are evil and worthless would support such horrors. These evil people should be immediately put to death- and yes this includes all current members of congress.
These people had better start getting their shit together and support what the people want or they will find themselves hanging from a rope and worse- much sooner than later!
mudshark @ 27:
That happened in the middle of my enlistment, and we were all setting up appointments with the JAG's office to draw up wills.
When the war we expected didn't happen we partied for at least a week alternatly relieved we weren't going to war, but also saying, "I can't believe we're letting those 'ragheads' get away with this."
I was discharged just six days before Grenada. But at the VA hospital one guy said it was still the Cold War when I was there, so technically I could be considered a Cold War Veteran.
Over the years though I have given somewhere between 3-5 gallons of blood though to blood banks. I'm AB-.
General_Rennenkampf @ 33:
Lt. Watada refused to deploy to Iraq.
Lt Watada today is a free man. More power to this kid here. I am quite sure the press will be very silent on this one, same as they are on
Lt Watada's victory.
milkman @ 50:
I think he'd say that if it had any chance of ending what he sees as an illegal and immoral war, then he'd take the time in prison. Some people don't measure their life in terms of what kind of job they can get. It's admirable that this guy has the courage to stand up for his beliefs. And you can pull out a volunteer card, but stop-loss is basically a draft - he's not volunteering anymore.
Meanwhile, the administration and the MIC have once again moved the goalposts for "victory" in Iraq...
CNN
McCain said he's not giving a timetable for pulling U.S. troops out of Iraq. But he says by January 2013, most of them will have been brought home. Video Watch more of McCain's view on Iraq »
But any kind of timeline for withdrawal is a stunning departure for McCain. Pressed about it on his "Straight Talk Express" bus, McCain repeatedly insisted he is not setting a date.
"It could be next year. It could three years from now ... but I'm confident that we will have victory in Iraq," he said.
Analyst Doug MacGregor, a decorated combat veteran, said for victory to be achieved, several other complications have to be ironed out.
"Winning, from the American vantage point, really consists of coming to arrangements with Iraq's neighbors concerning what will happen in that country when we leave it. That's the most important thing," he said.
MacGregor said making those arrangements with Iraq's neighbors is possible. He believes they all have an interest in a secure and stable Iraq and says they're not likely to cooperate with the United States until they decide to leave the country.
So, let me get this straight. Now we will have achieved military "victory" in Iraq if we come "to arrangements concerning what will happen in [Iraq] when we leave it"??? Never mind the Catch-22 of that logic (we invaded Iraq with the goal of coming to arrangements with its neighbors about what happens when we leave it). How does having the U.S. military occupying Iraq achieve this goal? What "mission" do you give the troops that will chart a path toward this vague definition of victory ("Operation Pout and Whine to the Iranians"). McSame and the Bushies (what a band name that would be) need to come to grips with the fact that the U.S. military no longer has a purpose in Iraq, and that if they don't get them out ASAP then the American people will elect somebody who will.
this would only work if all the stop loss vets choose not to go back
im glad he is standing on principle...but he hasnt a chance in hell to get out of being tossed into jail
Erroll @ 22:
This is how truly sane and good people see reality. Anyone who does not understand or agree with the above comments should stay out of this conversation.
KUDOS to the folks above whom I have quoted in this comment.
Chris @ 2:
Finally, a true American hero who refuses to blindly join in the murdering.
Now THIS is someone I'd vote for!
uncle joe hussein mccarthy @ 67:
Neither did MLK.
Heroes become heroes for standing on principle and making a change, not being sheep who are frightened of the consequences.
I applaud his bravery and his conscience. I would send this to my son serving in Iraq (we have discussed the fairness of stop-loss) but I know his email is filtered, and he would have to explain. I hope ending stop-loss is one of the first steps Barack's administration takes.
The only way out of Iraq is if dissent comes from within.
Stand up soldier, I'm behind your decision 100% and I know I'm not the only one... To all those, vets and nonvets alike who might take offense or pooh pooh his actions... I got a hot flash for you all.... This administration is a criminal enterprise and as such their actions getting average Americans and other world citizens killed renders their authority to sit in judgement of this soldier moot.. Furthermore, this man, and he is a man in the truist sense of the word... his actions are in fact where the rubber meets the road on all this 'we're sick of Bush shit' and 'we're tired of what these people are doing to America rants' We all need to realize, all the rants of all the people who don't like what's going on and want to see it stopped and changed for the better... This is how it begins....
This is one of the acts and many others like it in other walks of life are what it's going to take to begin to take back this nation from those bastards who have stolen it for their own evil selfish ends...We all have to stop playing their game... I am a vet, and I too believe in a strong chain of command, but when the leaders of the nation abrogate their own responsibilities to the law and the people they would presume to lead...but will not willingly leave power?? It comes down to acts like this in order to speak a truth to power in a way they can't ignore... Folks, if we're ever going to end this drive towards fascism, it's going to take the kinds of courage and the kinds of acts just like this... A refusal to play the game anymore.. by everyone, civilian and vet alike...
For all you vets, if it makes you feel any better about it, consider it a refusal to follow and unlawful order. You all know about that little bitty article in the USMJ that support this refusing to follow a piss poor illigal order. IF you want to argue terms of a contract? I consider the Bush administrations actions these last eight years, a practical argument that the nations leadership broke the terms of every service members contracts thru their dupicity which led to them to starting an illegal and immoral war of agression for no freaking good reason...
You want argue reasons and go realpolitic on me to play the oil card as reason enough??? I say FUCK oil! We needed to be getting off that shit immediately after the 73 oil embargo.... THAT was the first wakeup call on that shit we ignored.. IF we had got shithot on developing alternatives to the internal combustion engine back then, there's a pretty damned good chance we wouldn't be sitting here with our collective dicks in our hand bemoaning our shitty situation.. But then, there have always been forces and people in this country and internationally who NEVER wanted something like that to happen and now some of these bastards are running the country...
So, yea, I'm backing this troopers refusal to deploy 100%. And while I'm pretty sure he's going to go to jail in the interim.. That ain't going to be the end of this story. IF we're all lucky, this will actually be the beginning of a much larger tale which will hopefully end with amnesty for him and anyone else to takes this strategy, and a reappraisal of our foreign policy among other things... like the legal removal of Bush from office by force......I still think that needs to happen regardless of whatever else is going on.........JD
He needs to be executed for his crimes against humanity, not touted as holding some superior moral ground. This Christian terrorist invaded Iraq and raped, tortured, and murdered innocent people. He needs to die for his crimes, not be held in esteem for suddenly refusing to commit any more of them.
First off the UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice) does make allowances for disobeying a direct order IF that order is unlawful. Its an uphill battle, by uphill I mean Mt Everest, but not insurmountable. If this soldier claims to have been told to cover up crimes (outside of the illegal occupation) then his case is even stronger. He starts at Base Camp instead of sea level.
Secondly, for those that don't know, every American citizen is obligated, once you sign up or are drafted, to serve eight years. Two in the Guard plus six active duty, or eight active duty, or five active and three RR (ready reserve - its like a quick pick pool in case of emergency, you don't do anything you're just on stand-by). So legally speaking if they call him up even after discharging him then that's as good as reenlisting. Usually though pulling from the RR is extraordinary, they can't have run out of photojournalists!
Lastly, I truly applaud this guy. We sit here typing away on our little keyboards, safe and warm in our homes. Few of us sticking our heads out far enough to risk having them cut off. Whether we are for the war but to afraid to sign up, or against the war and to scared of the new Big Brother to take a stand. The punishment for disobeying can be as severe as death under the UCMJ. Though I think him correct, morally and factually, I can't help but know the deck is stacked against him. Good luck, Sgt. Chiroux.
I gotta go stick my head out the window and check for rain.
Sorry Toi Su@ 74;
I can't agree. IF anyone needs to pay the ultimate price for those acts you discribe which I do agree with... It is George W. Bush and Dick Cheney. IF you want the pawns to pay for this shit... Then a whole lot of average people from a whole lot of nations will have to die... And just as a practical point of debate... This guy never deployed to Iraq itself. From what I get his combat deployment was in Afganistan and as a photo jounalist.. So, reality is, he was probably not necessarily involved in any combat search and destroy missions as a day to day responsibility.... Whatever, in any case, its not the Sgt. Chiroux's of the world or the you's and I's of the world who need to face up and pay for this.. It is the 'leaders' and other powerful figures in the background who wanted it, it is the people who started it.. It is, in no particular order, Bush, Cheny, most of the senior advisors, Condi Rice, a number of pentagon higher ups, probably some wall street types.. and lest I forget, Osama bin Laden, the biggg boogieman.. He is an asshole and deserves his fair share of the blame.. Oh yes, and an unknown number of Saudies.. our bigtime allie... The numbers who need to bare responsibility for all this is large and does include some lower rank assholes from several armies... But, unless there is a provable case this sargent did indeed commit an atrocity while deployed in Afganistan... HE AIN'T ONE OF THEM any more than you or I are....JD
Immoral, maybe (thats a subjective call so it's personal decision) but illegal, only if by "illegal" you really mean "I don't like it".
Just announcing something is illegal doesn't make it so and since no ICC member has moved to have the legality of the war questioned then without actual proof it's hard to use that as a defense.
Sure Kofi said he believes it was illegal but, once again, he doesn't actually put forward any proof of it illegality or while in power made any move to have the legality questioned. You have to remember that this was the same leader of the UN that has trouble seeing anything in Darfur that should require UN intervention. His, and pretty much every other UN leaders mandate seems to pretty much be "don't rock the boat", except where Israel is concerned for reasons I can still not begin to understand.
The facts are that under US laws the war in Iraq is legal (Congress authorized and through funding continues to authorize the conflict) and even under the UN resolutions dealing with Saddam (which is so open ended I'm pretty sure my dog could declare war on Iraq and be covered) there is a very clear path to war if the resolutions were not being met by Saddam (which they weren't).
So you can argue the wisdom in the decision of the US (and yes, it was the US not the President as he only has the authority given to him by Congress) to start this war but you can't outright declare it, and therefore orders to participate in it, illegal.
The Sgt. made a decision to enlist, and as long as the military still has an option written into the agreement he signed to call him to active duty, he has no grounds to refuse.
Bic @ 77:
"... he has no grounds to refuse." I will attempt not to be too lengthy here, as this statement is so blatantly and demonstrably false. As Lt. Watada stated at the Veterans for Peace convention in Seattle in the summer of 2006:
"They [the soldiers] must realize that this is a war not out of self-defense but by choice, for profit and imperialistic domination. WMD, ties to Al Qaeda, and ties to 9/11 never existed and never will. The soldier must know that our narrowly and questionably elected officials intentionally manipulated the evidence presented to Congress, the public, and the world to make the case for war. They must know that neither Congress nor this administration has the authority to violate the prohibition against pre-emptive war-an American law that still stands today. This same administration uses us for rampant violations of time-tested laws banning torture and degradation of prisoners of war. though the American soldier wants to do right, the illegitimacy of the occupation itself, the politics of this administration, and rules of engagement of desperate field commanders will ultimately force them to be party to war crimes. They must know some of these facts, if not all, in order to act."
The lieutenant went on to say that "The oath we take swears allegiance not to one man but to a document of principles and laws designed to protect the people. Enlisting in the military does not relinquish one's right to seek the truth-neither does it excuse one from rational thought nor the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. 'I was only following orders' is never an excuse."
[Deleted. Way too long , Erroll. A few appropriate paragraphs and some links saves a whole lot of bandwidth. Please take this into consideration when you post comments. Thank you. Site Monitor]
Stop eqivocating Bic... We are a long way past that point...
As I said before, if we are ever going to bring to halt where these people are leading us by the nose, actions such as taken by this sargent in this case is where real action meets intentions... This is where taking back the country from these fascists begins.. And believe me, it is barely a start. There are going to have to be a whole lot more sargent Chiroux's from a whole lot of other walks of life military and civilian, doing similar actions that goes against the existing grain to begin to break up this cabal of evil infesting this nations government. Its called civil disobedience and it has a long history...worldwide, we didn't invent it....
I don't like what it is coming down to but, but as the saying goes, drastic times calls for drastic measures. As far as the rest of your points goes... All I got to say is Congress authorized Bush to take actions designed to get Iraq to comply with U.N. mandates, one of which, was to allow inspectors to confirm the presence or non presence of WMD's which Bush didn't wait on anyway.... There was never any U.N mandate to bomb the shit out of Iraq and destablize the rest of the world.. It was the Bush administration and its lawyers who took what that congressional authorization really was and mutated it into a free pass to launch a war. And they are trying to work the Iran invasion idea off that same scheming rationale. The 03 authorization and a ham handed attempt to codify unitary executive priviledge. It's a hell of a thing...but ya know what? Biden and Conyers at least ain't having it... We may yet see an impeachment if Bush really pulls the trigger on Iran... Congress may be clueless pack of dupes but I am pretty sure that at least the majority of them had no idea Bush would take the idea generally perceived as a last final resort and turn it into a first choice of action.
I'll say something else.. You nitpick around the law and talk about how noone has proven it was an illegal war... PFFT! These motherfuckers don't want to take that question into a court of law unless they can pack that court first. And I gaurentee you, regardless of your view that its legal, and your dancing around the morality aspect of it.. (subjective my ass! Lets ask the dead and maimed guy), and regardless of the Bush administration p.r. spin... The REST of this planet ain't seeing it that way.... So you can hide behind semantics and existing tomes on U.S. law, but that same kind of shit didn't do nazi Germany any good in the end.. And it ain't gonna work for these criminals either. If you ever want this nation to be able to feel honorable again, you better check yourself mister. You're backin the wrong horse here. Look, I know the guy will probably go to Leavenworth over this, but that doesn't make him a criminal in my eyes. Prisoner of conscience, yea... criminal.. no... The criminals, war criminals at that, are in D.C. and you are here defending them whether you know it or not...............JD
Chris @ 2:
Yes. "Live like a drone. Be a drone". A thinking soldier is a threat to national security because he/she is less likely to question immoral, illegal and inhumane orders.
Try using that defense at the Nuremberg trials.
It was not my intention of abusing the bandwith of Crooks and Liars, since I was not aware that there is a word limit regarding how much one can write, as is the policy of many newspapers. If I had known of this procedure, I certainly would not have taken the time and the trouble of writing what I did if I had known this beforehand. Regarding providing a link, I was unable to do this since that particular link is no longer available on the Internet.
Comment #81 is directed to the Site Monitors.
Thank You.
[Sorry for the delay, Erroll. I was just going by the manual. If you'd like to repost the comment, I'll let it fly. Because there are no links. Site Monitor]
Hero!!! Fight it all the way brother!!!
Maybe Jenna Bush's new groom will be willing to take his place?
miss_kitty @ 58:
Miss_Kitty,
You hit the nail on the head. When a person signs a military contract, they are led to believe that contract has value. It doesn't. The military can and does change the rules constantly and the service member has no legal recourse. It was one of the reasons I got out. Fortunately, I did over 8 active and left with PTSD on my medical record so they cannot get me with this nonsense.
What a patriot!
Sgt. Matthis Chiroux
You are not a soldier any more, you are a warrior now, congratulations!
Stay strong my man.
I truly respect your stance and am behind you 100%, you are doing the RIGHT thing.
It was resistance in the military that eventually put an end to the last immoral and unjustified war in Vietnam, and with soldiers like this we can stand behind them and help them end the next bloody mistake.
-odanny (U.S. Army 85-92)
Chris @ 2:
shut up
another viewpoint on the same subject
US soldier refuses to serve in 'illegal Iraq war'
Published: Friday May 16, 2008
article link
http://rawstory.com/news/afp/US_soldier_refuses_to_serve_in_ille_0516200...
video of soldier's press conference
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_PPIU38MM0
discuss
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/rawstory/47950_afpfeeda/?a=29428
Comments are closed on this entry