Russia and Georgia Hostilities Escalate Dramatically
By Bill W. Sunday Aug 10, 2008 8:45am
Cheney being Cheney (left) & Russian and Georgian athletes embrace after winning Olympic medals Sunday in Beijing (right).
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On Sunday the situation in Georgia went from bad to worse. Russia rejected Georgia's call for a ceasefire, and instead demanded Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili step down. Russian troops pushed past South Ossetia into central Georgia and bombers struck targets in the capital, Tbilisi. To help with the fighting, Georgia has begun a full withdrawal of the 2,000 troops it had stationed in Iraq. The implications of that withdrawal don't bode well for the situation in Iraq.
Meanwhile, on our side of the pond, both presidential candidates have called for an end to the hostilities, but John McCain has ceded any moral authority to even weigh in on the issue as long as his top foreign policy adviser with lobbying ties to the Georgian government, Randy Scheunemann, remains with his campaign. U.S. "diplomats have conceded that there are few options for dealing what President George W Bush has branded a 'dangerous escalation'" but of course that didn't stop warhawk Cheney from talking tough:
"Russian aggression must not go unanswered, and that its continuation would have serious consequences for its relations with the United States, as well as the broader international community,"
If any of this has left anyone confused, thankfully the NYT's James Traub has a very good rundown on how this all managed to unfold so far.
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Anyone else notice that the MSM is ignoring that W is STILL ON VACATION! WW III could be starting, and he's too busy with his photo ops and having fun.
Hey DICK and DUMYA! I'll say it for the Russians....FUCK YOU, you God damn wicked, hypocritical, genocidal murderers!
Your doing a great job Saakashvili.
Didn't Georgia start the shooting in South Ossetia I thought that's what other news organizations were reporting? Is CNN = Fox News now, carrying water for the White House eh? Correct me if I'm wrong on this one heh ...
this Russian agression must not go unanswered, the Ossetians are a minority imposing their will on the Georgians (even I think Georgia should grant ossetians the same rights: school in their language etc). But to impose a secession, just because you are backed by the KGB and are armed to your teeth is so retro. Before seccesion Georgians were in majority in South-ossetia, nowadays ethnic cleansing might have brought a solution there, anybody has correct and reliable numbers about this?
Too bad a condamnation from a lying torturing douchebag has no moral authority whatsoever. It's sad for Georgia, but guys you're on your own: Europe to political correct to intervene, and the USA to full of other problems.
Kastlefeer @ 4:
Georgia went in Friday and started shooting and slaughtering civilians. The Great Necon Controled U.S.- -Western MSM is trying to spin this as Russia just suddenly out of no where attacked Georgia.
Don't worry about Chaney; we don't have the reserve strength to attack Bermuda.
Kastlefeer @ 4:
Here's BBC's account of the first day of hostilities ...
THURSDAY 7 AUGUST
Georgian forces and separatists in South Ossetia agree to observe a ceasefire and hold Russian-mediated talks to end their long-simmering conflict.
Hours later, Georgian forces launch a surprise attack, sending a large force against the breakaway province and reaching the capital Tskhinvali.
South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity accuses Georgia of a "perfidious and base step".
The head of Georgian forces in South Ossetia says the operation is intended to "restore constitutional order" to the region, while the government says the troops are "neutralising separatist fighters attacking civilians".
Russia's special envoy in South Ossetia, Yury Popov, says Georgia's military operation shows that it cannot be trusted and he calls on Nato to reconsider plans to offer it membership.
Kastlefeer @ 4:
Well even if they did, why wouldn't they have the right to chase away a corrupt criminal organization? The government is not a government representative of the people it's a KGB backed up criminal organization, with a few select governing 'families' armed to the teeth and imposing Russias will on the majority of Georgians who used to live there.
I a criminal Russian weapon-dealer would make a coup in a smaal town in Texas and claim sovereignity, would you still see it as 3america" started shooting first? anyway even if Georgia did start, the Russian response is ridiculous = bloquade, destroying everything on ground". The gerogians were responding to bombardments, so you can allways go very far away with the"who started". If the government of Sout-ossetia had the least legitimacy, I would back them up vividly like I do for the Kurds, Tibetans, Sikhs and other oppressed people. But they haven't, they are a joke and represent only their lobbiyst friends (close family and Russia), the only reason they succeeded in imposing a defacto independance is their overwhelming firepower and money (obtained through criminal activities and active support of Russia).
Anyway this shouldn't be a point, go get info on Transnistria, South-Ossetia and Abazachia, they are not the expression of the majority of the people, they are the work of criminal organizations backed up by KGB and imposing Russias will on a disagreeing majority.
I say we drop our two biggest bombs on Moscow to show our discontent.
Those Bombs would be bush and cheney and they should be dropped in the middle of Red Square from 10,000 meters to insure a direct hit.
The western leaders that armed and trained Georgia and then pushed them to start this war should be immediately charged with war crimes! I reccomend the prosecution demand the death penalty.
Didn't the U.S. already set a precedent that one country can invade another solely to impose regime change?
The Georgians started this and the people responsible should face international charges for mass murder and terrorism.
Saakashvilli will need to face his own people over this embarrassing fiasco and accept full responsibility. I am sure many Georgians will question his powers of judgement.
johny Europe, what you're so conveniently leaving out is the fact that the Georgian government is a criminal organization put into place and backed by the US and Israel.
Here's what the McCain campaign had to say about Obama in this situation
"McCain has fired back:
"The Obama campaign's attacks on Randy Scheunemann are disgraceful. Mr. Scheunemann proudly represented a small democracy that is one of our closest allies in a very dangerous region. Today, many are dead and Georgia is in crisis, yet the Obama campaign has offered nothing more than cheap and petty political attacks that are echoed only by the Kremlin. The reaction of the Obama campaign to this crisis, so at odds with our democratic allies and yet so bizarrely in sync with Moscow, doesn't merely raise questions about Senator Obama's judgment--it answers them."
So what is the McCain campaign implying here? Are they saying Obama is Russian? If so now Obama is a elite Muslim Russian?
Did I hear right, did the U.S. just accuse Russia of forcing a "Regime Change".?
Were have I heard that before?.
Launching a massive artillery and rocket barrage on a sleeping city without any provocation casts the Georgians in a very bad light. The Western MSM seems intent on trying to obfuscate this particular fact by burying it the the last third of news reports. Choosing to attack when the world was distracted by the Olympic opening ceremony was in particularly bad taste.
We're in involved in 3 wars... does our arrogance and ignorance never end ?
Sanjiv Sarwate @ 12:
Yes, they did, and that fact echo's around the world. People out here are saying Dick Cheney has absolutely no voice in matters such as this since he has shown such poor judgment and guidance to his lap-puppet bush.
"The Russians have attacked Georgia??? Quick, alert the Florida National Guart!!!!
dick steps in...
http://ollysonions.blogspot.com/2008/08/dick-cheney-steps-into-georgia-c...
L.A. Confidential @ 6:
if so then that should be made impossible too, but don't start buying in the Russian propaganda neither. The Russian humanitarian peace-keeprs are as humanitarian as the US freedom fighters in Iraq...
I don't know as well South-Ossetia as Transnistrya, but from what I know in Transinstrya the independence is a joke; it's like the maffia would force a de facto independence of Sicily from Italy, and Italy wouldn't have the right to try and restore order without being nuked by Russia because the maffia has tied itself with Russia. The independence in Transnistry was organized by ower-armed KGB officials using cold-war weapon caches and financial back up by Russia, this against the will of the majority of the poeple living there. And I doubt it was different in South-Ossetia especially knowing that the majority of people living in South-Ossetia in 1992 were pro-Georgia and against Russia. The only way a minority could have forced a defacto independence would be through the same techniques as used in Transinstria.
Now again explain me why th einternational community can't meddle with Chechnya, but Russia does have the right to interfere with South Ossetia? If russians demands independence for South Ossetia, the least they could do is grant the same for Chechnya (were a majority of the people are pro-independence, well used to be, maybe ethnic cleansed to now?)
"ower-armed KGB officials" I meant over-armed.
Do not forget those rogue states are nothing more than criminal free-havens for drug and weapon trade.
Would that humans everwhere would rise up and get rid of the non-humans running this planet. What is sad is that there are so few of them.
johny Europe @ 21:
Don't worry guy the warmongers need a new enemy, a fresh face in their rogues' gallery, to get the masses excited again, and Putin's Russia fits the bill.
Tonybo @ 18:
The silence about this in the MSM is deafening.... guess the WH, DOD and CIA have provided the talking points, again!
Please note CNN's caption for the pic - "When enemies hug". Our media at its finest.
(sarcasm, in case anyone is wondering)
a dick cheney escape act will probably go unanswered by the u.s. congress and the American people.
the latimes has excellent running coverage. and actually, do you want the boy king to leave the olympics and take a hand in this? i think not.
The James Traub article is terrific. Seems to me if Georgia had been allowed NATO memebership we would be fighting Russia right now. Oh wait...we're all tied up in Iraq aren't we?
L.A. Confidential @ 17:
Yup I agree with that too, but as I said again, I'm not going to buy to soon in Russian propaganda neither. There is no doubt in my mind the Ossetian government is anything but a criminal KGB-led paramilitary organization. So they have no legitimacy whatsoever.
A solution should be found for the region, but ethnic cleansing by either one of the sides should not be the solution.
But even if Georgia mayeb started , it's to easy to criticize them, I mean would you accept if a town in yoru state would be forced to secede by a small well-armed criminal organization?
To compare it with things you understand: imagine Blackwater would buy a few houses in Ensenada. Then organize a CIA-backed-up coup and force independance from Mexico, at a time when Mexico has no ressources to fight back. If Mexico would try to regain the city 8 y later, would you still see it as a Mexican aggression? I'm sure there are some american families living in Ensenada, but that's not a reason for independence yet...
I think that this a land grab by the Russians and they know that they can get away with it b/c the US is powerless to stop it. The Georgian govt overplayed its hand b/c they thought that Bush would keep them safe from the Russians, not understanding that he doesn't care about them, only that they keep their troops in Iraq. This is a war that has been in the making since the fall of the Soviet Union(read the exclent article by Traub linked at the end of the article), and has been made worse by the Kosovo war that the NATO countries intervened in, rightly IMHO. If we had a prez that was more involved with world polotics than checking out Misty Mays ass, Putin would never have acted unilaterly by invading Georgia.
Hey Dick! You don't do any of your own fighting, you irrelevant, senile, old man, so STFU... Let's face it, Dick, you're a war monger and have no business threatening anyone or any country, or even saying a word to anyone about you're gonna do this or that...
L.A. Confidential @ 24:
Well I don't liek iether russia or the Neo-con Dubya-led USA. Both are very alike in their hypocrisy. I agree let's be cautious about the MSM who has proven to be only a uncritical mouthpiece for the WH. But that's not a reason for us to go buy into the Russians propaganda neither.
johny Europe @ 30:
Interesting. On YouTube there is a Russian complaining about Georgia. It's his only video. It reeks of propaganda.
Here is a video of a dead soldier with a patch that says "Armed Forces" on it in English.
http://www.life.ru/video/4991
Rumor has it that U.S. forces were training the Georgia army last week and were having war games near South Ossetia And the war games were set to end August 8th.
The russia Envoy in South Ossetia says that two black soldiers were found dead and soldiers with US flag patches dressed in black were found as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bcv-ynUDYHc
bmz @ 7:
For Chaney, Bermuda might be a logical target. If Iraq could be targetted for 9/11, why not Bermuda now? In Chaney's "mind", we have to attack someone!
This is so funny. A war criminal weighing in on an issue. Just wait MF till the ICC gets their hands
on you and your idiot chimpanzee buddy.
With all of our troops tied down in Iraq and Afghanistan, Cheney and Bush speak with zero credibility. They are the opposite of Teddy Roosevelt: they speak loudly and carry a tiny stick. I'm so glad that GWB famously "looked into the soul" of Vladimir Putin and found someone he could deal with. How's the dealing now, George?
This mess looks too much like Sudetenland. What a clusterfuck.
jeff @ 31:
Yup I agree 100% with that one. Must be hard for Gerogians to see the love was not mutual and only because USA needed something from Georgia.
Idiot of the Week
Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili
I just made the mistake of turning on CNNInternational. McWar is on there talking about how wrong Russia is for attacking a Sovereign Nation.
Where do these asshole get the nerve to talk after the moves we have made on Iraq.
Once again folks, if the were No Pipeline Going Through Georgia the US wouldn't even blink an eye.
Regardless of who started what, Cheney's statement is the kind of thing that just ratchets everything up another notch, rather that moving towards a solution. He honestly sounds like he wants a fight, which makes Putin's statement that America should mind its own business a little more ominous in turn.
Sadly, the U.S. doesn't have the moral high ground to be able to serve as a honest broker or voice of reason.
Here's THE article to read on this topic. It's another neocon-engineered/approved catastrophe and NOT the fault of the Russians. This short article is a fantastic background on the conflict from someone who has been following that area of the world closely for quite a while:
The Real Aggressor
Georgian invasion of South Ossetia sets the stage for a wider war
http://www.antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=13285
☻Bangkok Bob ☺ @ 42:
When your chief foreign policy adviser has up until very recently been a paid shill for the Georgian government, what else should we expect?
Well the Georgian President thought Bush would have his back after helping the US with the illegal invasion of Iraq. Now allies and friendship mean nothing to the Bush Administration. Putlin pretty much laughed in Bush's face as Bush is a lame duck. Cheney is just full of hot air and the US has no soldiers to send. Or will the million Americans who support the Bush Policy and follow the drunk/drug President Bush, now send their kids to fight in the Russian/Georgian War? I don't think so they will just buy a ribbon for the car and hang the US flag out side their home but let others did for the USA. Look for your landlord to be from the Middle East as their buying up the United States of America.
L.A. Confidential @ 41:
That's what you get for trusting G W Bush.
FOX is State Sponsored TV @ 29:
Yeah that truth stands out like a lump on the head. I guess this could be counted as one of those larger crisis situations we would be vulnerable in because of an already over taxed military stretched to too thin. Not that any has suggested such a notion or anything like that. !@#$%^&* Excuse me I had to curse.
Also standing out is this conflict isn't a bunch of poor guys running around with 15 year old stinger missiles. This is a real conflict, we never saw anything remotely as dangerous in the entire "Mission Accomplished" Iraq war getting fired at us. $%^&*(#$%^ Excuse me I had to curse.
Of course the Neo-nut-sack religious right want to see Armageddon come and believe Russia is the one that will plop itself down on Israel on the temple mount and reveal it was really the devil all along until Jesus comes along to take him out. They also believe the US will get beaten terribly in our conflict with them during the tribulation period.
Now if you want end times to come because you believe in that sort of thing and want to ensure the US can't respond like it normally would. I can't think of a better way of making it happen then by making sure an idiot of biblical proportions runs our country for 8 years, squanders our economy unlike ever before, polarize our government into gridlock inaction, bogs our military down in two wars we have to pay for and fight largely alone, throw our entire military wad out on the table like a novice card player hitting the poker table for the first time so all the pros can sit back and just up their ante and call our hand, and destabilize the region you expect the devil to defile and Jesus to return at. #@$%^&*&^% Excuse me I had to curse.
Nice job you $%^&^%@# loser piece of $#@#$ Neo-nuts-sacks, if their is a devil, I hope you become his marsh-mellows.
johny Europe @ 5:
Fixed that for you..
"This American aggression must not go unanswered, the Albanians are a minority imposing their will on the Serbs (even I think Serbia should grant Albanians the same rights: school in their language etc). But to impose a secession, just because you are backed by NATO and are armed to your teeth is so retro."
Georgia as a separatist state is hardly in a position to complain to much when parts of it choose not to separate and remain with the original country. As for launching the assault during the Olympics, this is not Georgia's idea, as they would gain the maximum benefit by forcing Russia into a over reaction during a quite media period and attempting to achieve maximum publicity. The Olympic strike is clearly an act of the current US administration, so they could gauge public reaction to see whether it was of political benefit in the upcoming election, if edging to a third world war gains votes, maximum publicity, if it damages the election cause, US mass media will bury it behind the Olympics and pretend it never happened.
The most extraordinary part about this is it is starting to appear like US based mercenary corporations where involved in the assault and the execution of Russian citizens living in the contested regions. How will the Russian government react if this is proven, their only real legal recourse to achieve justice will be to target the senior executives, board of directors and major share holders of those corporations who declared war on Russian citizens for a profit, as it is certain that those responsible for the decisions will be protected from a proper and fair legal prosecution. Whilst those same corporations having certainly gotten away with killing Iraqi citizens for fun and profit, they will likely find their lives under threat for attempting the same with Russian citizens.
Well, The New World Order our republican Military is pushing, isn't funny any more.
USA was founded by Criminals, Sadam was put into power by the USA, Georgia was just trained by our army, offensive is now deffensive thanks to GOP, up is down, left is extreamists. right are compasionate conservatives, USA speads freedom and democracy, where are our free speach zones in central PA, Suadi Arabia has a financial interest in CNN, Bush is hanging with China 1 of the last super power comunists, a battle fleet of navy ships moved in closer to Iran recently to block off supplies they need, ......
Impeach Bush now before GOD tells him to send our military deaper onto foreign lands, and leave the Homeland wide open. Time to regroup dumb asses or start the draft now.
Dildo GOP has prolly already started agressions against Russia...Let Get it on, a real fight WHOOORAAAAA
Winston @ 44:
Not the fault of the Russians????
Then who is at fault, the Goergians didn't invade Russia and those"peacekeepers" were not there to keep the peace. There are no swans in this sewer but to absolve the Russians of fault is to be naive about the intentions of Putin and the resurgence of the military in Russia.
☻Bangkok Bob ☺ @ 42:
If this goes much further, that pipeline through Afghanistan will be worthless. Then our boys will only be dying in Afghanistan, only to support the heroin trade.
Bush family legacy...the vast availability of inexpensive hard drugs.
Don't forget the big issue: Iran. The neocons have said that an attack on Iran would come around August.
The two big opponents to the blockade (which is commencing now in the Gulf) are Russia and China. China recently had a massive bombing by "Muslim terrorists" (a CIA client) and is hosting the Olympics, while Russia now has to deal with this.
Still, the neocons are overreaching if they think that Russia and China can't walk and chew gum at the same time...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/42090198-52d0-11dd-9ba7-000077b07658.html?ncli...
Backing Georgia
Published: July 16 2008 03:00 | Last updated: July 16 2008 03:00
If proof were needed of the significance of the crisis facing the troubled Caucasus state of Georgia, it came yesterday with the start of exercises involving 1,000 US troops.
US officials insist the long-planned wargames have nothing to do with the recent dispute between Russia and Georgia over the breakaway Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. But they give Washington a chance to support pro-west Tbilisi at a critical time.
The exercises come just after Moscow brazenly admitted sending war planes over South Ossetia last week, allegedly to stop an attack by Mikheil Saakashvili, the Georgian president. While Russia has encroached on Georgian air space many times in supporting Abkhazia and South Ossetia, this was the first time in recent years that it has openly confessed to what was a flagrant violation of Georgia's territorial integrity. With the action coinciding with a visit to Tbilisi by Condoleezza Rice, US secretary of state, the message to the west was brutally clear: stay off our turf.
It is a message the US and the European Union must not accept. Russia is not interested in Abkhazia and South Ossetia per se. It has not recognised their independence claims for fear of setting precedents for its own Caucasus minorities. But Moscow is very interested in stopping Georgia developing as a pro-west state - and blocking its bid to join Nato. The west must be equally determined to help Tbilisi follow its chosen course. The problems involved in admitting a fragile state with separatist regions into Nato will take time to resolve. But the direction must be clear.
Georgia matters to the west because it is the current standard-bearer of the democratic revolt against Moscow that began in central Europe in 1989. While the flags of freedom flying in Tbilisi are stained by Mr Saakashvili's authoritarian lapses, Georgia's leaders still generally embrace democratic values. Also, Georgia straddles the only non-Russian route taking Caspian oil and gas to world markets. Lose Georgia, and Russia wins an even bigger say over energy supplies. The risks were highlighted by this week's cut, for technical reasons, in Russian oil flows to the Czech Republic after Prague agreed to host part of the US missile shield.
Certainly, the west should try to engage Russia in talks over Abkhazia and South Ossetia, as long as they are based on preserving Georgian sovereignty. It should also redouble efforts to restrain hotheads in Tbilisi from resorting to violence. But when Russia bullies Georgia. the west must back its vulnerable ally.
Robert @ 50:
Neither Russians nor Georgians are innocent in this one.
Tommy Gunn @ 55:
Check this out.
http://europebusines.blogspot.com/2008/08/massive-us-naval-armada-heads-...
Massive US Naval Armada Heads For Iran
Operation Brimstone ended only one week ago. This was the joint US/UK/French naval war games in the Atlantic Ocean preparing for a naval blockade of Iran and the likely resulting war in the Persian Gulf area. The massive war games included a US Navy supercarrier battle group, an US Navy expeditionary carrier battle group, a Royal Navy carrier battle group, a French nuclear hunter-killer submarine plus a large number of US Navy cruisers, destroyers and frigates playing the "enemy force".
The lead American ship in these war games, the USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN71) and its Carrier Strike Group Two (CCSG-2) are now headed towards Iran along with the USS Ronald Reagon (CVN76) and its Carrier Strike Group Seven (CCSG-7) coming from Japan.
They are joining two existing USN battle groups in the Gulf area: the USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN72) with its Carrier Strike Group Nine (CCSG-9); and the USS Peleliu (LHA-5) with its expeditionary strike group. PLUS MORE IN ARTICLE.
The main reason the US has backed the Georgian government is so we could protect our access to (steal) the oil in the region and keep the pipelines open. We sure don't want the Russians to have full control over that little part of the world.
The other reason is that Georgie wants protect the little nation, is because he thinks they named it in his honor!
http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPreview/1%...
Hmmmmmm...
War in Georgia: The Israeli connection
For past seven years, Israeli companies have been helping Gerogian army to preparer for war against Russia through arms deals, training of infantry units and security advice
Arie Egozi
The fighting which broke out over the weekend between Russia and Georgia has brought Israel's intensive involvement in the region into the limelight. This involvement includes the sale of advanced weapons to Georgia and the training of the Georgian army's infantry forces.
The Defense Ministry held a special meeting Sunday to discuss the various arms deals held by Israelis in Georgia, but no change in policy has been announced as of yet.
more in article.
Kastlefeer @ 4:
Can I get an AMEN?!?!
Galaga @ 61:
Putin remarks also reflected deep anger at Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili.
"Of course, Saddam Hussein ought to have been hanged for destroying several Shiite villages," Putin said. "And the incumbent Georgian leaders who razed ten Ossetian villages at once, who ran elderly people and children with tanks, who burned civilian alive in their sheds — these leaders must be taken under protection."
Robert @ 50:
I just have it confirmed, the vast majority of the People in South Ossetia are Georgians, pro-Georgia and against secession. It was only because of the overwhelming firepower and financial means of the KGB that they could force a defacto Independence.
Secession and declaring yourself independent is about the people's basic rights for self-determination, where the government is said to represent the majority of the people and still protect the rights of the minority.
The right to independence is not about a small well-organized and well-funded criminal organization to impose a terror regime on a hostile majority of people. Thus no, South Ossetia has nothing in common with Kosovo and has no legitimacy whatsoever to claim independence.
But no fear, after this conflict now I think problems will be solved, I heard most Georgians habitation have been razed by the Russians during their reconquista. So now there will be a majority of pro-russians in South Ossetia at last.
johny Europe @ 63:
Georgia will be Russia after Putin is finished.
It should be obvious by now.
Sanjiv Sarwate @ 12:
No...we set a precedent that a nation can recognize secession forcibly. This is the vengeance for Kosovo.
So how's that Iran attack idea going boyz?
Traub's "rundown" is decidedly pro western, filled with neocon references (archrealist Henry Kissenger - pulleeze).
I have a few questions:
1. Who funded Saakashvili's campaign in 2005?
2. Why does Georgia need unmanned drones and who sold them to them?
3. If the russians are so expansionist, does anyone really believe they would move beyond Georgia into Iran or Turkey?
j @ 27:
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!
Oh CNN...you tawdry little slut!
Tommy Gunn @ 55:
Yeah...cuz those nomads in Central Asia can't possibly come up with the idea to hit China when the whole world is watching on their own. Nossir, those lil' Uighyurs just love having China have an even freer hand than it does in Tibet there. You're talking out of your ass. The Uighyrs have a much more genuine grievance with China than Tibet does, and they've no such PR system.
Sanjiv Sarwate @ 12:
Yes...how is our little adventure in Kosovo ending up these days?
Not to mention Iraq and Afghanistan, but Kosovo was first.
The US is so tied down in Iraq to such a degree that Russia can attack a potential NATO member as Putin shares the stands with Bush at the Beijing Olympics.
Who'd a Thunk It!
L.A. Confidential @ 71:
Not just Iraq...Afghanistan as well.
General_Rennenkampf @ 70:
Let me refresh our memory. Clinton Destroyed the U.S. Military. Remember?
L.A. Confidential @ 73:
Nahhh....
The military Clinton created was the one Dubya used to smash up the Taliban in three months, something the USSR never did in 8 years. Dubya did far more to destroy the military than Clinton ever did.
General_Rennenkampf @ 72:
Oh yeah the Horseback Riding Talibans are a formidable military. No doubt it will take decades to defeat that might military.
L.A. Confidential @ 75:
It is the tactics that will defeat the US military, not the military might.
That is the lesson the Soviets learned the hard way, and ought not be lost on you.
L.A. Confidential @ 75:
We already did defeat them. In three months. It took them about 7 years to finally recover from it. Clinton's Army was much better than the Dubya's. OTOH...
Iraq was never defeated to the same degree Afghanistan was. The Iraqi Army simply dissolved and formed the core of the insurgency. The Taliban and Al Qaeda, OTOH were broken quite badly.
Any talk of the Taliban having been defeated is premature.
They simply retreated to regroup, and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
Eric Hussein in Ottawa @ 76:
Tactics...and having a superpower provide you with all the weapons you needed in hopes of getting one up on their rivals. Without US armaments, the Mujahideen would have been smashed as thoroughly by the Red Army of that era as the US Army in the 60s did to Vietnam or we did in 2001. We may have lost Vietnam, but we kicked the shit out of it regardless.
Eric Hussein in Ottawa @ 78:
Took them 7 years whereas it took the Iraqi Army barely one. The damage done to the Taliban was much, much greater.
General_Rennenkampf @ 80:
I'm not arguing that, but I wouldn't call them defeated.
Eric Hussein in Ottawa @ 81:
I see your point. My point, however, that the army Bill Clinton created was much more effective than the Army of the Dubya Jihad still stands.
Democrats are not soft on defense or bad for national security the way the GOP paints them as.
L.A. Confidential @ 13:
That is a fact. He willfully chose to provoke a country many times his size and with much greater military power. What did he expect Putin to do, slap him on the wrist? Of course, if he was getting help from the Neocons, either directly or indirectly, this guy must not be a real Einstein anyway.
Eric Hussein in Ottawa @ 76:
Oh yeah the Soviets learned alright. That should be obvious right now. While we sputter on the sidelines.
General_Rennenkampf @ 82:
Hm. i'm not sure what happened to my comment @ 85.
Anyway, I was just saying that I agree with you there.
Kastlefeer @ 4:
YOu are right. If you watch CNN or any other American "news" outlet..you only hear the White House line about this conflict. I watched Russian and other countries news, and the whole different story gets reported that georgian pres provoked the russians. Dont; you know that ther eis ALWAYS more then one side to the story...the same way ther eis more then one sort of reporting about the war in IRaq. This is appaulign that US media does not offer any opposing view on this topic..everybody lined up to blame Russia. WTF? Chances are we wil never know who provoked who in this, but Georgian government is by far not clean..they just know that they have America on their back so that war chickenhawks like Cheney and Bush wil help them out. So, they might have easily provoked the russians...and remember W still needs another war to help McSame win! So there you go.
It is really a war between Russia and USA not Russia and Georgia....get your news from outside US!
L.A. Confidential @ 84:
Meh...Russia'll win the actual shooting war with Georgia easy enough, but like Iraq, it'll be the occupation that'll fuck them as badly as it did us. However, Russia's waged a previous war in the Caucasus for 40 years. They've more patience than we do.
...
And they had Tsars.
....
Our invasion of Iraq is virtually no different than Russia in Georgia.
bmw H. 528 @ 83:
He's a U.S. schooled Georgian (currently occupied as a soon to be ex U.S. strongman puppet) with Law Degree's and worked for a New York law firm before being recruited as a promising young Georgia Politician.
Not very brilliant is an understatement.
And what resources do we have to throw in to this conflict? Very, very little. I think its time for new magnetic stickers for our cars. "We support Georgians". I want one.
General_Rennenkampf @ 82:
"defense"
hee hee...
@ Johnny Eruope
this Russian agression must not go unanswered, the Ossetians are a minority imposing their will on the Georgians (even I think Georgia should grant ossetians the same rights: school in their language etc). But to impose a secession, just because you are backed by the KGB and are armed to your teeth is so retro. Before seccesion Georgians were in majority in South-ossetia, nowadays ethnic cleansing might have brought a solution there, anybody has correct and reliable numbers about this?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not Russian aggression but Georgian aggression.
Georgians never were majority in South-Ossetia - South Ossetians were majority in that region since 13 th century here are the numbers:
1926 census 1939 census 1959 census 1970 census 1979 census 1989 census
Ossetians 60,351 (69.1%) 72,266 (68.1%) 63,698 (65.8%) 66,073 (66.5%) 65,077 (66.4%) 65,200 (66.2%)
Georgians 23,538 (26.9%) 27,525 (25.9%) 26,584 (27.5%) 28,125 (28.3%) 28,187 (28.8%) 28,700 (29.0%)
Russians 157 (0.2%) 2,111 (2.0%) 2,380 (2.5%) 1,574 (1.6%) 2,046 (2.1%)
Armenians 1,374 (1.6%) 1,537 (1.4%) 1,555 (1.6%) 1,254 (1.3%) 953 (1.0%)
Jews 1,739 (2.0%) 1,979 (1.9%) 1,723 (1.8%) 1,485 (1.5%) 654 (0.7%)
Others 216 (0.2%) 700 (0.7%) 867 (0.9%) 910 (0.9%) 1,071 (1.1%) 5,100 (4.8%)
Total 87,375 106,118 96,807 99,421 97,988 99,000
And there never was ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia - the fact is that Georgians and Ossetians never had any maroj ethnic problems. They have major political and national disputes.
,,,,,,,,,,
@ johnny Europe
.......And I doubt it was different in South-Ossetia especially knowing that the majority of people living in South-Ossetia in 1992 were pro-Georgia and against Russia. The only way a minority could have forced a defacto independence would be through the same techniques as used in Transinstria.
---------------------------------------------------------
You know nothing, you are full of s.it. The majority of people living in South-Ossetia in 1992 were hugely against Georgia and were pro-Russian. (People of South Ossetia never wanted to be part of Georgia - they wans to rejoin Russia.)
Aren't you one of thos McCain trolls? Redirected on CrooksandLiars directly from McCain campaign web to spout McCain talking points? Hell for what I know you could be even McCain himself as it seems that every one of your many posts in here is full of typically McCain gaffes and lies. (like his claim that Iran is training Al-Qaeda etc.)
As I can imagine that slyness of McCain is on the same level as the slyness of that cartoon character Willie E Coyotee - the possibility that McCain would come up with nickname as yours is really hig. (McCain - "hmmm I am Johnny, John those Rosskies are "bullying" our european ally Georgie" Hence the nick Johnny Europe - Way to go John. LOL.
Samson- @ 91:
"defense"
hee hee...
I, too, find that term humorous in this context.
General_Rennenkampf @ 88:
damn you people suck...no opposing view on this conflict..you all repeating WH lies. No wonder you were lied into Iraq war since you believe everythying WH is saying..and I can stil ltell you hate russians just like you did during the cold war. Some things never change.
Samson- @ 91:
Well...if I'd been blunt and said "Imperialist misadventures on a global scale," that might have been truer, but it would have been impolitic for those who associate "Democrat" with "spineless wimp."
General_Rennenkampf @ 88:
I disagree. This is Mr. Putin. Not the drunken idiots like Yeltsin who previously ran that country into the skids.
AG @ 94:
Hmm that's an interesting take on the discussions above.
I was under the impression that the general consensus is that both sides are in the wrong.
Oh man, I forgot Condi was just there. I'm sure she wasn't delivering Saakashvili's marching orders...
DudefromPrague @ 92:
you are right..these sheep iare just repeating WH lies about Russia....they need to learn history and listen to other media...not pro WH one.
geez no wonder you people got tricked into supporting war with IRaq. You woudl think you would learn.but no you know believe them again now against Russia. Let;s attack them now? good luck cause they would nuke your ass
AG @ 94:
Hate Russians? Nah, I think you fellas should have turned repressive again in the 1980s and shot all the budding nationalisms. Much more peaceable that way. Unfortunately, Russians went soft with Ol' Leonid Illyich and Gorby.
The situation's murky on several accounts. Attacking during the Olympics is a big no-no. As is attempting to attack Russia when claiming you want a cease-fire. But by the same token, propping up a puppet government not that far from the Georgian capital and daring your smaller neighbors to attack you is not that good either.
Anyway anyway anyway anyway Have A Nice Day.
Don't yap your life away.
L.A. Confidential @ 96:
Nope. The only way for Russia to win an occupation of Georgia is to kill enough Georgians that the fire for rebellion goes out. That's how they won the Second Chechnya War, Grozny looks like a suburb in a Dantean epic. Russia's only means of victory is to do that, assuming they actually want to annex Georgia, which is by no means clear.
For those who think that the Russians are not expansionists, they want to control that pipeline as much as we do. That pipeline was laid to get around the Russian control of oil from the Baku oilfields, that Russia would like to get back BTW, to Europe. I find it interesting that the Russians tried to bomb that pipeline, and missed, when it is nowhere near the breakaway provences. Russia has turned into a petrocrat, in that the exercise diplomatic control by the flow of oil. Dont trust the Georgian govt on what they said did in their own country, but Putin used to be in the KGB and if their ever was a group of people that I would trust less than the neo-cons, it would be the folks that worked for the KGB.
AG @ 87:
We can't handle the truth!
jeff @ 104:
You'd be wise to do so. The KGB made Hoover's FBI look like kindgarten choirboys next to Hell's Angels. Hoover spied on his own citizens but never killed any of them at the time the KGB (then called the NKVD) was shooting thousands of Polish officers in the Katyn Forest.
And Russia's just as expansionist as the US is. I expect something...convienent to go wrong in...say....Kazakstan or some other Central Asian ex-SSR and there to be a war, soon. Perhaps when the next Russian election nears.
Col Nathan R Jessop @ 105:
http://www.russiatoday.com/en
General_Rennenkampf @ 95:
:-)
good stuff general
blunt = true
the idea that military imperialism is viewed (in today's accepted 'wisdom') as being good 'for national security' ranks up there with any orwellian double-speak one could recite
(impolitic is my middle name)
General_Rennenkampf @ 106:
that;s why as I said it is a war between two powers: US and Russia...not georgia, etc. Georgian chicken ass president only uses his microphone to speak to the press and blame russians for this and that..porr little guy I am sure he did not count on help from America when he started this whole mess
Putin tells cheney to GFY.
PUTIN TO US: STAY OUT OF THIS CONFLICT
Damn.
AG @ 109:
in case you have doubts - http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28832 (US sends more arms to Georgia)
AG @ 87:
I'm less inclined to favor a guy who was in an organization with an actual massacre on its hands than I am to trust media run by the Chimp. The Chimp is just stupid. The KGB was actually willing to commit mass murder.
Col. Putin was a KGB officer. Unless the Russian leader quoted is Medvedev, I don't trust anything from Moscow, and I take Medvedev with a grain of salt. Same thing for the Georgian leader.
getalife "whiners" @ 110:
yep..cheney and W should stay the F away if he does not want to get nuked..they should go back figuring that mess up in Iraq
bmw H. 528 @ 83:
So how do feel about the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia? Should they expect to go back under the thumb of Russia also? The Baltics provoked the Russians much more than than Goergia ever did, I think it was Estonia, that had a large Russian minority that was moved in by Stalin after WWII, that was kicked out after the fall of the Soviet Union and then joined NaATO soon after. Riots, Russian army, the whole shebang and yet I dont remember anyone blaming the Estinians for the same thing that you are blaming the Georgians for.
General_Rennenkampf @ 112:
Of course he was KGB>..that;s why I dont; trust him either. But georgians are not angels..those fuckers were just hoping to start soething like that with russia cause they knew America would back them up. The point I was makign is that US media did not report any other perspective on this conflict other than the WH line. WTF is whith our media..oh well I should know better
AG @ 111:
I trust Russia Today as much as I'd trust WorldNetDaily.
Samson- @ 108:
Unfortunately, the Powers That Be seem to think that it's still the Cold War. I'm afraid that Col. Putin might be deciding to take them seriously.
AG @ 115:
The Media never reports two sides to things, the coverage of the Lebanon War in 2006 was abominable and ignored several issues with the Lebanese side of the conflict, as well as just how destructive the Israelis were.
You're right the Georgians are no angels, and I think it may be at least a decade after the shooting stops, and it will be a good long time before it does, before any reasonable simalcrum of truth in this conflict can start to emerge.
This conflict was provoked by america I think to prove their point that they need to expand nato over there which Russia opposes. So, this sounds like a good pretext and motive for that NAto expansion. So, I think W started that and georgian pussy president agreed. But what americans dont know is that russians dont; give up like iraqis do...they have nukes too by the way.
General_Rennenkampf @ 116:
russia today is a pro-kremlin source..so yes you can't trust them..but did you report that? can you trust CNN as being fair and unbiased when all they report about this conflict is WH line? Seek other news sources then...forget about Russia Today..and you will see much different reporting then CNN
Stratigical blunder by US. Now how can we claim that saving that pipeline is a "humanitarian mission"?
General_Rennenkampf @ 112:
Better said then I said. I just think that Putin is a man that would like to see that Russia is once agian feared not only by the world, but by its people once agian.
HERE IS LIVE RUSSIA NEWS ONLINE.
It is in English and is the Russia version of CNN.
http://www.russiatoday.com/en
Go to the right and click Watch RT now!
AG@111
"in case you have doubts - http://www.russiatoday.com/news/news/28832 (US sends more arms to Georgia)"
.
.
For some reason, those weapons don't look like US stock to me. I could be wrong about this. But they don't look like US weapons.
Nah...I really prefer to get my media from the Beeb or even the English Al-Jazeera. If I wanted state propaganda I'd read FOX News. Can't really trust the US Media any more, and I really don't think that can apply to much else in NA either...Canada and Mexico are probably just as bad, if not worse, than we are.
AG @ 118:
Sounds like typical Cold War-style politics. Unfortunately for Dubya this is one limited war that he'll have a helluva time getting out of if he intervenes.
Hmmmm, It's NineEleven again - only this time it's in the old evil empire.
Does anyone know where the 4-king pretzldent is?
jeff @ 121:
"Think?" The guy's a former member of the Soviet secret police!
He wants to be Tsar, I think. But regardless, I'd trust a KGB leader of Russia about as much as a former CIA or FBI agent in the White House.
Send all the Blackwater goons to Georgia so that Russia can crush them along with the thousands of US and israeli "advisors".
mudshark @ 123:
They are not US weapons in that photo, those are AKs and the mines are russian also. I dont trust the ability of people that put that picture up, I have seen too many photos of things that somebody is talking about that are not the things that are being shown. So the story might be true, I dont know about that, but the photo is not of American weapons.
mudshark @ 123:
Oh the U.S. has bought out it's fair share of "other peoples" products for resale throughout time. There's no integrity in the International Arms Racket.
Mr. Blade @ 122:
yep..watch it..
I wonder if US media would report what was discussed at the emergency meeting Medvedev is having now http://www.russianembassy.org
jeff @ 128:
yeah who knows about that pic. as far as story might be true or not..I would not be surprised if it is true..cause US is famous for supplying arms to rogue regimes when it is to their benefit
sure hope none of the Rouge nukes we heard about so much at the turn of this century ended up in Georgia......
L.A. Confidential @ 129:
Howdy LA. Howzit goin bud?
I know how all that buying and selling crap works. But the only thing I have seen made by the US in any of the recent fotos from there have been uniforms. No doubt we have our fingers in the pie there.
If Russia did try to bomb the pipeline, that would be a direct assault on our economy. Sad but true.
I guess their still pissed off about Afghanistan .
Have a great day LA.
See ya around I hope.
mudshark @ 133:
They didn't bomb the pipeline they sent a message by bombing next to it.
Anyway it should be obvious in one fell swoop, Russia has turned the tables on the neoilcons, unmasking of the profound weakness of the US in all it's glaring obviousness.
Feel Safer now?
You mean there are other countries besides the US who still have troops in Iraq? O_o
L.A. Confidential @ 134:
Tons!
General_Rennenkampf @ 77:
You'd better hope the US Military moves armed forces into Georgia to fight the Russian invasion.
If Georgia is lost, the pipeline is lost. There will be no reason to stay in Afghanistan. Unless it's only to keep the heroin trade flourishing.
AG @ 130:
The MSM is to busy with Phelps pumped as team comeback rescues dream and 'American Idol's Clay Aiken now a father.
Have to keep the populace pacified.
mudshark @ 136:
Nothing like having George W Bush on hand to come to the rescue huh?
I wonder if thats occurred to the Georgians yet?
Bring it On!
http://publiuspundit.com/bush-saakashvili.jpg
L.A. Confidential @ 129:
So true.
This is how the mujahideen of Afganistan got there AK47 rifles. The U.S. funneled in Russia rifles through a back channel black market. It was an insult and hid who was funding The Afgans.
Its a PROXY war.
And meanwhile, McGramps gets tough....
"McCain warns Russians of "severe, long-term negative consequences""
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20080811/pl_politico/19061_1
Have no fear, McGramps is on the situation. McGaffing his way to and fro. He's going to tell these Russians that only WE can invade and destroy other countries.
Where does Cheney intend to find the additional forces to counter the Russians? All troops are, have been or will be deployed. Other than the troops that recently returned from Iraq, AFghanistan, and elsewhere there are no troops on station. This is the foolishness behind the Bush Administration's rush to go into and occupy Iraq. Many people were warning that with no reserves if something came up the U.S. could not respond. Now we are seeing it flare up and all Cheney can do is shout cheap, meaningless slogans.
The Russians appear to be moving south out of Abkhazia and moving towards Samtredia. If they take that, its all over as Samtredia sits close by the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline and in effect cuts off the western portion of Georgia from any aid. The Russians will dictate the terms and there is nothing anyone can do about it.
Joe O. @ 142:
Thats right. Isn't Bush due a new Mission Accomplished Bit?
Left&Left @ 2:
So eloquently said.
Do you think the criminals in the white house will understand?
And meanwhile, McGramps takes action....
Politico.com
"McCain warns Russians of "severe, long-term negative consequences""
So have no fear, McGramps is on it. McGaffing his way to and fro.
He's going to tell those Russians that only WE can invade and destroy other countries. Go McGramps, go!
Joe O. @ 142:
We'll just have to bring back the draft.
There are many young Republicans that are true believers, that would love to get into this conflict, if they were only told that they have to go. Once Congress shows them them that the boot camp is better than blogging, by sending them that magical brown letter, we can increase troop levels to the point where we can go in cheap, under equipped, under armored and turn Georgia into another Iraq.
L.A. Confidential @ 140:
http://tinyurl.com/6ynyep
I honestly feel like I'm watching some "Pravda" propaganda network when I listen to this buffoon interview the Russian Ambassador.
Bush should just stfu when it comes to giving advice to ANYONE regarding aggression. He has NO ROOM to talk.
Who gives a rat's ass what the worst war criminal in American history has to say about his vp views on what needs to happen next. This is the Satan of the 21st century when it comes to murder and genocide.
Q. "I thought Ronald Reagan Destroyed Russia?"
A. Uh not quite kid that was uh never mind you don't want to know.
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