Defense Secretary Robert Gates says no US military action against Russia
This whole thing was a plot by Cheney to start a new cold war conflict with Russia to replace "the war on terror" if Obama wins the White House. And if McCain wins then they just have another national security issue to hammer us with. This statement by Gates is a joke:
Defense Secretary Robert Gates warned Thursday that if Russia doesn't pull back from its fighting in Georgia it could hurt Moscow-Washington relations "for years to come."
Speaking at his first Pentagon news conference since the fighting started, Gates also said he does not see "any prospect" for the use of U.S. military force there.
"The United States spent 45 years working very hard to avoid a military confrontation with Russia," said Gates. "I see no reason to change that approach today."
But Gates said Russia must face retribution for a military assault on Georgia that appears aimed at punishing the small nation for "daring to try to integrate with the West economically, and politically, and in security arrangements."
Michael Ware said on CNN this Russian action was really provoked by the US and Americans don't understand that aspect of this story. Oh, some of us do. Where are we getting the troops?
That sense of betrayal is going to be used by the neocons as a rallying cry for their revitalized cold war cause. And they will be agitating and pushing the debate and coercing anyone who disagrees on the basis of a myth that the US abandoned a Democratic ally because it refused to confront an evil enemy. It's their most successful theme.
I fully expect to see a Committee To Liberate Georgia and a Washington Lobby formed by this time next year with a full blown push for a Georgia Liberation Act following not far behind. (I suspect they will also hope that an Obama administration will be too smart or too practical not to do what they want, the better to gain domestic political leverage as they refurbish the conservative image.)
What! Gates isn't going to led McCain lead our troops into battle in Georgia?
No photos of McCain, sword raised on high, upon his white horse, rearing up, moments before leading the charge?
Gad, 6 more month of Bush! We are biting more than we can chew, and I hate the chow we have before us. Afghanistan, Iraq, then Iran and now Russia. "Cant we just get along?"
I'm always confused when I hear neocons push for US involvement in international conflicts. Where do they think the soldiers will come from? Where will the money come from to pay for all these military actions?
They don't want a return to a draft and they don't want to raise taxes? So what gives?
Damn, I wish we had someone to turn to who was sane and level headed. This is no time to fu*k with Russia.
McCain is sounding like some old dude sitting on a park bench and telling anyone who will listen, how he will save the world from the evil du jour. God help us all if he starts trying to call the shots right now.
McAyn influence was presumed to change the 'humanitarian' aid into military - see http://cabdrollery.blogspot.com
Rumors has it that have droids from Lucasfilm to use for the month.
Unfortunately, Chimpy will not disappear quietly. That worthless shit stain is determined to leave his (skid) mark on this country. And will take years to clean up the mess.
this brings a fresh perspective to the phrase:
Another "enemy" to scare us with. If you people don't think Diebold and crew are going to steal this election then about that swampland . . .
The Truth Hurts @ 3:
They don't care where the money comes from - China is fine. All they care about is where that money goes (to the MIC).
pissed off patricia @ 4:
Putin doesn't give a shit what the US says or threatens to do. Who's going to rally around the US? No one. America's international reputation is in the toilet. So if other countries won't jump to America's side....and the US can't go it alone. What does that leave? A bunch of empty threats from a declining power that Putin will instantly ignore.
Disagree with Digby (and Gates). Americans just don't and aren't ever going to give a shit about Georgia.
BWA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!! What a coward.
McCain and his lobbyist advisor also had a hand in ginning up this confrontation, don't forget that.
Saakashvili is over there yelling and screaming Where's the West! Where's the West! Uncle Boosh! Come save me Uncle Boosh!
Talk about not taking accountability for ones actions. This idiots career is dead meat. Maybe he can join Oliver North and do talk radio.
VietVet8666 @ 12:
Yeah, but...
Americans didn't really give a shit about Iraq either. At least not until they were manipulated into giving a shit.
They GOPhascisti are positioning us for an "October surprise": War with Russia in the trans-Caucasus. It's the only way they can "win;" that is, keep it close enough to steal...
Not that I want a shooting war with Russia, but we dare not fight someone capable of actually fighting back.
It's like when the Pentagon was so proud about us whooping the Iraqi Army. Would the Patriot's be proud of stomping
the Butte Montana Junior High JV second string team?
Not that the Russians could stomp us, but we are a little over extended just killing and maiming 3rd world brown people.
Take a look at a MiG 29!!!
heard on the radio today that while the repubs play chess the demos play checkers
by the time the repubs bet through with obama he will be on the TSA terrorist list
take a long hard look at nancy and reid and that will tell you all you need to know about the demos
they are out of their league
bush played them like a fine violin
even increased his war funding after 2006
until we throw all of them out nothing will change in america
must change the system
capitalism leads to imperialism
imperialism leads to war mongering
war mongering leads to fascism
we are living in the beginning stages of this now
Duh! Attacking Russia would likely lead to a draft, leading to riots, leading to the end of the republicrat single party system. That's if things go well. Worst case scenario is we're all glowing in the dark.
I don't understand. Russia has lots of oil.
Who are we planning on sending to fight Russia, the Kiss Army? Aren't we sorta busy at the moment?
The Russkis, in the Caucasus, are strong enough to defeat USer arms, if the confrontation doesn't go nuclear.
then everybody loses...
But the fascisti do give a shit...they'd rather go out in a blaze than be relegated to irrelevance...
For so long we looked boorish and now we just look foolish.
Michael Ware couldnt find his ass with both hands. I really find some of this identical to the conservative insanity during the Clinton years. They couldnt back any US national security interest without thinking that Bill had rigged it all up to fuck them. heh. Its a direct parallel.
woody, tokin librul @ 17:
WERE positioning us for an October Surprise. Things don't always work out as planned. The US is not going to do anything about Georgia except keep up the sputtering campaign of verbal Russophobia.
The reich-wingers must be heart broken.
I've always felt that I was of slightly more than average intelligence, but I just can't follow Digby's logic. Not a critique just a fact. But Vietvet8866 may be right on this one. Most don't even recognize it as a European country. But "Wag the dog?"
Move on people, nothing to see here. @ 28:
Bush deviated from the "script". And blew it big time.
The georgia thing could work to our interest. Even with Iraq the russian satellites would rather lean west than east. It doesnt take much for them to get angry with russia. Some of them wouldnt piss on russia if it was on fire thanks to soviet history.
Russia still doesnt understand PR. They dont have the experience dealing with a free media so they are really, really bad at it. Thats the part where NATO will pick up points.
georgia has simply and foolishly joined the list of those betrayed by the boosh crime family.
I think McCain longs to see another shock and awe, but this time over Russia. He and his dirty lobbying bastard have helped stir up something here that we are not equipped to quell.
They must have told McCain if we go through with this plan, you can make your pro war statements and you just might win the election. But just like Iraq, no one thought to look ahead to how the story might end.
The problem is that the US is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't. The whole Iraq thing would have prevented the mess in which the Caucases find themselves. Russia knows that too many troops are holed up in Iraq/Afghanistan so just goes round like a bullying child in a sweetshop. This middle way is ridiculous - nobody could argue with humanitarian aid - but unless there's actual will to fight Russians on Georgian soil - ie outside Ossettia then i just can't see them shifting.
war-like noises with Russia make Condi look better as a McSame VP candidate, at least to the Rightards...
yesterday on huffpost there was a wonderful post by Chris Kelly, that took the SS Kindasleezy down a few pegs. Here's the first coupla graffs:
So yeah, sure, Condoleezza Rice for Vice President. Time's a wastin'.
But there's one other thing that we're always told to keep in mind when we consider Condoleezza -- I mean, besides her wondrous ability to play an instrument: Whatever happens, It's not her fault.
Sure, she ignored the warnings about bin Laden, and she was shoe shopping during Katrina, and she can't find her ass with her hands on Lebanon, or North Korea, or Pakistan. It's not her fault because those aren't her area.
Her field of expertise is the Soviet Union. Ask anyone at the Hoover Institute. She's just brilliant on the Soviet Union.
She's written books on the Soviets, a dissertation even! She speaks Russian. She has impeccable credentials -- for a top slot in the Ford administration.
So it's not fair to get down on her for her inability to handle Zimbabwe or Iran or Venezuela; George W. Bush needed her at his side in case Brezhnev came back.
bubba @ 30:
The utter dishonesty of the US press, from the tv “news,” to the mainstream papers, to so-called public radio is pretty disgusting.
I dont understand Georgia commits genocide and we side with them?
BaScOmBe hearts Lara Logan and Rachel Maddow @ 8:
We need more troops? Here are some places to find fresh troops
1. Draft every "Young Republican", everyone of them.
2. Draft every professional athlete, everyone of them.
3. Draft every child of every Congressman and Senator over the age of 18, everyone of them.
4. Draft every Nascar Driver, everyone of them.
5. Draft every member of the Brookings Institute and the American Enterprise Institute.
6. Draft every adult from Mingo County
West Virginia
7. Draft every board member and senior executive of Halliburton, KBR, and the Carlyle Group, everyone of them
8. Draft Limbaugh, Hannity, Goldberg, Savage, and all the lamers at FOX News, everyone of them.
9. Draft every member of the Chicago Police Department with more than 15 years of service.
10. Draft every member of the editorial boards of CBS, NBC, ABC and WSJ, WaPo, NYTs and anyone who receives a check from Rupert Murdoch.
Acrana @ 36:
George H. W. Bush started slaughtering Panamanians without the least provocation, after winning his election.
Why not?
Draft every country and western musician who is a chicken hawk like Toby Keith and Brooks and Dunn.
Digby:
I said this at Digby's place last night, but it seems appropriate to repeat it here.
These so-called "betrayals" - Cambodia under Nixon, Vietnam under Ford, the Kurds/Iraqi Shia under Bush I, and now Georgia under Bush II - all seem to happen under Republican administrations.
Someone, maybe the Democrats, should be pointing that out?
If the neocons really feel that those betrayals are a problem, maybe they could vote for Democrats - or at least presidents who don't make promises they can't, or won't, keep.
.
[quote]he utter dishonesty of the US press, from the tv “news,” to the mainstream papers, to so-called public radio is pretty disgusting.[/quote]
US media could never do more damage than the soviets did to russias reputation. With games like these they start 10 points behind.
But if you read some of the hyperbole from russias press its pretty funny as well. They dont even have to pretend to be objective. A great deal of talk about genocide and freedom but little mention of chechnya, or the ingush people whom the Ossetians ethnically cleansed with russian help in 1992. They also wanted freedom.
Leadership @ 39:
As well as every redneck with a "These colors don't run" bumper sticker.
No shit there's not going to be military action against Russia. Bush is helpless because he's a freaking moron. He will however issue a very strong condemnation and even shake his finger. And then probably go on vacation again.
JGabriel @ 40:
Don't get involved in foreign wars.
Why don't we ever listen to good advice?
The United States' CIA likes fucking with people..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9UVetMKcWhA
Our taxes are going to empire maintenance.
Acrana @ 36:
I don't understand why Moscow supports the ethnic cleansing of Georgians in Abkhazia.
Well, actually I do.
The issues involved here date back centuries. There's no black/white clarity involved. If Bushco hadn't shot our diplomatic wad by invading Iraq, we might be able to foster some sort of peaceful solution here.
When no means yes.
Let's see, Russian and US forces are now 30 miles apart.
Bush: “We expect Russia to honor its commitment to let in all forms of humanitarian assistance. We expect Russia to ensure that all lines of communications and transport, including seaports, airports, roads and airspace, remain open for the delivery of humanitarian assistance and for civilian transit.”
Saakashvili: “You have heard the statement by the US president that the United States is starting a military-humanitarian operation in Georgia. It means that Georgian ports and airports will be taken under the control of the US defense ministry...”
He went on to call Bush’s “relief” mission a “turning point,” and characterized its import as “definitely an American military presence.”
Source: http://snipurl.com/3g5ib
Leadership @ 44:
OH, The Dominican Republic under Johnson, Cuba under Kennedy, Iran under Truman, Rwanda under Clinton, Czecholslovakia
under FDR!!!
Read more books!!!
Leadership @ 18:
Nevermind the MiGs.... The new Su 30 will fly circles around anything the west has now including the F22.
Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili
“The Israeli weapons have proved very effective,” he said at a press conference at his office. When asked whether the Israeli arms played a role in the military successes he claimed the Georgian army had achieved, he joked: “Are you asking me as a representative of Elbit or of Israel Aerospace Industries?”
To a reporter’s question about Jews who have fled the fighting and come to Israel, he said: “We have two Israeli cabinet ministers, one deals with war [Defense Minister David Kezerashvili], and the other with negotiations [State Minister for Territorial Integration Temur Yakobashvili], and that is the Israeli involvement here: Both war and peace are in the hands of Israeli Jews.”
Draft Tucker Carlson and John Stossel first!
One woman I work with told me her boyfriend just got back from a year in Georgia. She says many of his officers are being redeployed. Short R&R.
bubba @ 41:
Sure but Western perception managers are working overtime to train us to forget that this was initiated at just before noon, Moscow time, one week ago, when Georgian military forces initated the massive bombardment by land and air of Tskhinvali, the capital of Ossetia, where 30,000 civilians reside, along with the bombardment of surrounding villages.
Clue #2. The other thing that has not been taken into account by the so-called “reputable, objective” press is that the Government of the United States of America has no standing — political or moral — to issue judgments against Russia while they are occupying two nations with sanguinary military operations, maintaining an imperial military presence in almost 800 locations around the globe, and maintaining very cozy relations with the likes of the House of Saud and the violent expansionist state of Israel. Their nattering about the “territorial integrity of Georgia” is a joke, right? After the US participated in the provocation, exacerbation, then consolidation of the break-up of the former Yugoslavia? After the US provoked two coups in Haiti against democratically elected governments, and attempted to create a coup in Venezuela against a democratically-elected government? After the bloody invasions of Panama and Grenada? After Afghanistan and Iraq?
I think Digby's wrong about that. The fact that we let Russia make Georgia and the U.S. the former country's bitches will hurt Republicans, since they'll be forced to admit that the war in Iraq is keeping the us from making Russia blink a second time. Say what you want about Reagan, but he sure as hell wouldn't make us look like eunuchs who just talk big like this generation of Republicans.
researcher @ 19:
True that.
Who says Georgia committed genocide? Oh yeah, the big country that is currently expanding its borders. Ok. With milsovic we actually investigated, dug up graves, took testimony..for about 8 years. But here we'll take the Russians word 24 hours after a thing. The same Russians who just secured a black sea port? Ok.
There is no morality to seperation. You seperate or you dont. If you try and fail you get hung, if you succeed you get to be a founding father. In this case you get to join the Russian Federation and get the entrance fee waived.
The Ossetians themselves have denied freedom to the Ingush and persecuted them. Something that even the Russians were shocked by. This isnt a friendly neighborhood. Also, for all the media coverage of them being "russian", they arent. They dont even speak russian. They were handed Russian passports as part of a power play.
I guess if passports are the test we should just issue passports to the iraqis or taiwan. Then its settled.
It will be real fun to watch the republican thugs trying to pull off the vilification of "the other" that makes their fan base tick. The Russians aren't "commies" any more. They're basically white, European (yes, I know much of Russia is in Asia, but Moscow and most of the cities you've ever heard of are in Europe), capitalist, imperialists. Their leader is a former top spy (hmm, wasn't Georgie the Elder the #2 man at the CIA?). They're totally run by oil intrests. In otherwords they're the Republican party dream team. The neo-cons are already tied up into mental doughnuts trying to say the invasion of Georgia is somehow different from the invasion of Iraq. But there they atleast had mostly brownish people and religious difference to make it easier to sell to the masses. This time they're stuck trying to say "Heh, the Russian versions of us can't do the same things we do!"
I can't help but to feel the discussion about a possible war with Russia being treated in a rather cavalier fashion here.
May I remind some of you that Russia has thousands on nuclear weapons...
And I'm not talking about the wimpy stuff that India and Pakistan have. They got the REALLY SCARY SH*T!!!
http://fr.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUtnclJwx8&feature=related
This video always gives me chills.
[quote]Sure but Western perception managers are working overtime to train us to forget that this was initiated at just before noon, Moscow time, one week ago, when Georgian military forces initated the massive bombardment by land and air of Tskhinvali, the capital of Ossetia, where 30,000 civilians reside, along with the bombardment of surrounding villages.[quote]
Um, if they feel its their land and that seperatists are taking their land, of course they will fight. Thats just how its done.
See the american civil war.
If Mexico suddenly issues passports to hispanics living in Texas, trains them and supllies them with weapons? You might find the US having a say about it.
the legacy of the Bush Crime Family shall be
"it's OK to invade a sovereign nation just as
long as one don't like them"
maybe Georgia tried to kill Putin's daddy??!
let's send Condi over there with only a compass
and a Bowie knife since she's the big expert on
Russia!
BAHAHAHAHA!
draft anyone who still dances at discos,
Acrana @ 36:
DING..DING..DING!!!we have a winner! you have hit the "nail of irony" on the head! the irony of it all kills me. Russia didnt start this, and was forced to respond! ...the American media has everyone thinking Russia is the land grabber. what a joke!
I'm glad Amato covered this subject by saying..."Michael Ware said on CNN this Russian action was really provoked by the US and Americans don’t understand that aspect of this story. Oh, some of us do. Where are we getting the troops?"
American Neo-cons/military industrial complex ...are the ones who gave the nod for Georgian agression.
Jeon Ji-Yung @ 22:
ROTFL!
maybe we can use the Love Gun on 'em!?
You show us everything you've got
You keep on dancin' and the room gets hot
You drive us wild, we'll drive you crazy
You say you wanna go for a spin
The party's just begun, we'll let you in
You drive us wild, we'll drive you crazy
You keep on shoutin', you keep on shoutin'
IndridCold @ 59:
Well count me out of those who are being cavalier. All of this gives me heebie jeebies. This is serious and if not handled properly it could get all the hell out of control. Bush and McCain need to just shut the hell up and let France and Russia bring this to some sort of conclusion.
Russia is the land grabber. Georgia made a play to stop them but they didnt have any good options. If they waited a few years, S.O. would be part of the Russian Federation by default, instead they tried to turn the tables. The result is the same.
The ossetian people (the scythians really) are held in high regard by Moscow because they were strong soviet allies. They arent Russians but at least they dont mind killing Chechens, Ingush or Georgians. Those are the kinds of values Putin admires.
I can understand not liking GWB, I don't get this love of Putin. The russians are as complicit as sin.
just curious... but the head of the Democratic Party in Arkansas is shot and killed by a wingnut... and no mention on the blogs, hardly any mention on the news sites.
I can only imagine the non stop coverage if the roles were reversed (not that they ever are, since wingnuts kill people often for political reasons, but rarely, if ever, can I recall a "liberal" or progressive killing a wingnut...)
Milquetoast @ 63:
And Moscow supports the government of the autonomous Abkhazian region of Georgia, where the Abkhazians have been guilty of ethnic cleansing against Georgians since the early '90's. And like the South Ossetian "separatists" (I have my doubts about an Ossetian state,seeing that North Ossetia is part of the Russian Federation), the Abkhazians have been supported by Moscow all along.
This isn't a simple case of Bushco egging on anyone. It's a matter of nations that have been, on and off for centuries, living under Moscow's autocratic thumb. The Baltic states, Ukraine, Poland...none of them are taking lightly Russian intervention in an independent Georgia, because they know the historic precedents of Russian expansionism.
pete @ 67:
C&L had a post on this yesterday, shortly after the whole thing went down. Check for the post with "Malkin" in the headline.
This stuff is just too funny.
8 years of tough guy talk, Saying to the world and it's own citizens to hell with the rules we are going to do what we want
when we want and however we want to.
The Russian turn around and put you guy's in your place, Tough talk is cheap and you have shown the world that they don't
have to kowtow to you anymore if you think NATO is going to do something about this your right they will say sorry to russia
for going along with this cowboy crap.
Reading other blogs and news reports it is clear that "Russia has drawn a line in the sand" and it has no intention of backing down.
As far as they are concerned the United States and it's friends have a choice PUT-UP or SHUT-UP.
The new Russia doesn't fear the United States and has the fire power to back up it's tough talk and the will to maintain there
power over the region.
You have been called out like little punks on the street corner and you ran away.
John McCain is 72 years old he can afford to talk tough he is the walking dead do you really bet the future on him a war hero.
Someone should tell him that Vietnam was not a war and that 20 hours flying in a jet bombing unarmed civilians is nothing to be proud of.
Before this he wrecked three jets and had to be taken off the USS forestall aircraft carrier for his own safety because the crew
wanted to kill him for wet starting his jet as a prank setting off a chain reaction killing and wounding many of his shipmates.
The Truth Hurts @ 3:
BLACKWATER.
Robert Gates says no US military action against Russia
Who would they send, the mess hall staff, the latrine cleaners?
Its nothing new Dennis. If you put down the whisky bottle more often you'd know that. They tweaked us during Kosovo as well.
The reason Russia is bristling is that we are playing in their backyard. That's because they are weak so we are picking up allies while they are on the table. You can bet this will only accelerate their move west. Once you have either NATO or Russian Federation bumper sticker you get missiles backing you.
The law of unintended consquences works for everyone, not just America.
IndridCold @ 59:
I don't think most of us are treating cavalierly (?) because we believe the US holds a losing hand and has no intention of going to war. We'll talk tough, try to use the situation to our advanatage (politically) and ultimately, go slinking into the UN to try and get some meaningless sanctions slapped on Russia.
Surging Blue Lensman @ 16:
Most Americans don't seem to give a shit about the USA either: just their own life. Where is Iraq anyway????????????? (snark) Georgia? Isn't that one of the 48.
IndridCold @ 59:
You have no troops available, or money left to borrow. Do you think China will finance a war with Russia? It's all noise. I mean, you could try invading, but it would implode your nation.
Edwin Hussein @ 75:
Right. It was only the repeated associations of Iraq with 9-11 (something that Americans did care about) and terrorism that made it palatable . . heck, even desirable to the average Joe.
But what can the neocons use here - the high price of gas? Too bad demand has been dropping..
Surging Blue Lensman @ 74:
Well I wouldn't bet with the republican crowd. After all they managed to fake a letter to get us to invade Iraq for oil. Now they want to get involved to help McCain win an election. Its Oct surprise in Aug. You bet McCain is only interested in war. Guess who will go. Our kids
Move on people, nothing to see here. @ 28:
It's not a European country. It sits squarely in Asia. The reason to give these Eastern countries membership in NATO, is as triggers, in case the US wants to start a war with Russia. They do the same here, in Korea, by putting US soldiers at the DMZ. That way the USA is sure to be involved if gunfire erupts.
Tequila @ 55:
Disagree. Our soldiers were killed in Beirut and all Reagan could manage was to lob some naval shells at a mountain in Lebanon, before getting everyone out.
bubba @ 73:
Russia is weak? This is the New Russia not the Yeltsin wreck. Putin is 200 times smarter then Bush or McCain and 50 steps ahead of us in anticipating our moves.
What it really comes down to is Humanity needs to stop acting out like chest thumping Neanderthals and learn how to behave like civilized citizens of the world. People are getting bored with this "Celebrity Leadership" Picture Show.
With Russia tied up in Georgia the chimp may see this as a perfect opportunity to attack Iran.
We only attack and get embroiled in protracted war with defenseless countries these days.
twuzoo @ 82:
Hahahaha. He couldn't even take over South Georgia and he's going to attack Iran?
LOL
Forget. The jig is up.
Russia is weak in the sense that they are disliked locally. Their reputation is so bad that they have nobody to play collective security with at a time that they have a rising China on one border and an expanding NATO on the other. Its natural that they are unhappy.
Time was that Russia did the math and wanted to join the western alliance. China needs russian land more than NATO does.
And Putin is a thug, your not liking Bush doesnt change that reality.
L.A. Confidential @ 81:
Well put, LAC. But as with most things, until we (the US) can get our own house in order, you can forget about the rest of the world.
bubba @ 85:
My though Guy is better than yours
[quote]Say what you want about Reagan, but he sure as hell wouldn’t make us look like eunuchs who just talk big like this generation of Republicans.[/quote]
Reagan was pretty good about staying out of protracted struggles (using our troops anyway) and staying ready for the big one. Then russia fell apart and Bush I went nuts. 3 wars in 4 years? Junior needs one more to tie.
"This whole thing was a plot by Cheney to start a new cold war conflict with Russia to replace “the war on terror” if Obama wins the White House."
Nice to see this unsubstantiated, outrageous claim as the first sentence of the post directly following the one about the guy who rightfully got called out for doing the exact same thing to Obama in his book.
During the Clinton years the conservatives had a similar attitude. Every foreign policy situation was seen as an inconvenience that distracted them from hating on Bill. Either that or they felt Bill cooked it up to fuck them somehow.
bubba @ 85:
Georgian troops attacked Ossetia (and the Russian peacekeeping troops that were there) first, thinking Putin is a thug does not change that reality.
“The United States spent 45 years working very hard to avoid a military confrontation with Russia,” said Gates. “I see no reason to change that approach today.”
As if....As if the U.S. could even think of any such confrontation. I hate to say this, it pains me to say this, but our military would be very hard pressed to defend our own soil, military action against Russia would be suicide. Most of our military resources are being wasted in Iraq and is at the breaking point. I believe this country couldn't fight it's way out of a wet paper bag if it had to in a real full-blown ground war against a real nation. Especially over a small country like Georgia that isn't even a member of NATO. NATO, what a joke. Putin knows this. The world knows this, that's why we in more danger now than we ever have been since 1941. Someone has said here that Putin is probably laughing his communist born and bred ass off right now. That's probably true. Well once again the U.S. had stabbed another 'ally' in the back. Once again George W. Bush has played the fool. Once again George W. Bush has managed to completely humiliate our country. Is it any wonder the world hates and laughs at us?
bubba @ 85:
And you are disliked internationally. What's yer point?
bubba @ 85:
... yet for such a weak and disliked nation, Putin was able to play these amateurs like a fiddle.
bubba @ 90:
Wow... projecting there much?
JerryO @ 92:
I agree that it's stupid to invade Russia- it's too fucking big!
But, during the Cold War, the worry wasn't about how we, along with the NATO allies, would invade the USSR or any other Warsaw Pact nations, but how we would prevent them from invading western Europe. And the largest threat from them wasn't so much the weaponry- we were more technologically advanced- but the SIZE of their armies. And since the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact and the USSR, it's NATO that far outnumbers the Russian Federation. Hell, the USA is a bigger country now.
But, you're right, we're bogged down in Iraq and Afghanistan now. And our reputation in the field of diplomacy has been shot. So we'll sit on the sidelines while Russia swallows up Georgia.
But that has nothing to do with my point. And if you could read for comprehension rather than just being snarky for the sake of being snarky, you'd notice that America still enjoys collective security and is a member of NATO. The statement made by several of Russia's neighbors a few days ago further illustrates my point.
But I think your point is, "Fuck yeah, I hate Bush". To which I would respond... Uh, ok.
Tyler Durden @ 95:
I want able to decipher any meaning to that post. But maybe it made sense to you.
Tyler Durden @ 94:
... yet for such a weak and disliked nation, Putin was able to play these amateurs like a fiddle.
And the US invasion of Iraq was a success on week one. Its what comes as a result that kinda matters. Unfortunately my crystal ball doesnt have as much magic power as yours so I cant see that far out.
Listen no matter how you try to intellectualize the current situation with how powerful the USA and NATO are
it still comes down to this you just got PUNKED
bubba @ 85:
If being disliked locally is a weakness, then how weak must we be who are despised world wide? Russia, rich in oil and a vast, untapped supply of raw materials, doesn't need us...we need them to replenish our own diminishing resources. And so what if Putin is a "thug"...who is Cheney, Little Lord Fauntleroy? Besides, we have much experience in dealing with thugs as a study of the Bush family dealings with Hitler will show.
I would also like to remind you that Europe and Russia have a long history of wars that have left entire nations in ruins,
With Millions of dead in there own backyard, You can still remember what it was like seeing 3000 killed on 9/11.
How long do you think it would last if the war was brought to the US mainland not that I would like that.
But that kind of thing would be a game changer and you can talk tough all you want about retaliation and all that
but you tell me if you think that might change some minds with the population or for that matter NATO.
Figaro @ 101:
If being disliked locally is a weakness, then how weak must we be who are despised world wide? Russia, rich in oil and a vast, untapped supply of raw materials, doesn't need us...we need them to replenish our own diminishing resources. And so what if Putin is a "thug"...who is Cheney, Little Lord Fauntleroy? Besides, we have much experience in dealing with thugs as a study of the Bush family dealings with Hitler will show.
[quote]If being disliked locally is a weakness, then how weak must we be who are despised world wide? Russia, rich in oil and a vast, untapped supply of raw materials, doesn’t need us…we need them to replenish our own diminishing resources. And so what if Putin is a “thug”…who is Cheney, Little Lord Fauntleroy? Besides, we have much experience in dealing with thugs as a study of the Bush family dealings with Hitler will show.[/quote]
That sounds nice but it doesnt erase the soviet history in europe. Russia's neighbors have expressed solidarity with Georgia because of that history. And the fact remains that we still enjoy more collective security arrangements than Russia, Iraq or no. Those satellites are leaning our way despite of Iraq because their memory of Soviet aggression is still with them.
I don't see how hating american policy removes your ability to criticize bad behavior elsewhere. Seems a bit odd. I don't support Bush or Iraq but that doesnt inhibit my critical thinking.
But this isnt going anywhere. Obviously the only acceptable commentary here is "Bush Suxors! Fuck yeah!" if not worse.
Russian-backed ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Dennis @ 102:
I'm not talking retaliation at all. I'm talking the normal great game maneuvering that occurs between great powers. This game has been going on for a long time. I'm talking about one possible political outcome from the latest round. I don't believe any of it will lead to war.
Even in Kosovo the Russian deployed troops to an airfield just to tweak us after the serbs agreed to NATO terms. It's just business as usual but there will likely be some political fallout from the latest round.
For example its possible that a US invasion of Iraq might have convinced Iran to build a bomb sooner. These things have a way of spinning off unintended conquences. Unless you think the Russians are immune to that?
bubba@103
This goes much farther back than the Soviet era. Russia took over Georgia in 1783.
Poland, US clinch missile shield deal
WARSAW (AFP) — Warsaw and Washington signed a preliminary deal Thursday on basing part of a US missile shield in Poland, in the face of Moscow's vehement opposition and mounting East-West tensions over Georgia.
Americans will establish a small, permanent garrison in Poland of about 110 men before the year 2012. They will install the complex electronics, linking the shield with radar stations that are to be based in the Czech Republic.
L.A. Confidential @ 107:
The United States has claimed the missile defense system is aimed at states and groups in the Middle East that are seeking weapons of mass destruction, not against Russia.
LOL RIGHT!!!
Big surprise. I'm sure there will be more stuff like that along with accelerated NATO membership for Ukraine.
You also make the mistake of thinking like a North American that Russia is weak in the sense that they are disliked locally.
Because that has been the case for a long time and won't change any time soon but they also know what sphere of influence
they come under truth be told Russia holds the cards over there.
The United States at one time had influence in the world with good relations around the world but if you look around
things are changing your friends are starting to ask questions about the value of such a relationship.
You talk about the old Soviet Bloc falling apart but why did it fall apart for the same reason that NATO will fall apart
"Wealth" money not being shared and one country control, sooner or latter everybody gets pissed off and says's screw this.
It is only human nature to want more of the pie look how deep in debt the United States are today after only 8 years,
I have heard reports that most of the large corporations have not been paying any Tax for years using loopholes in the law.
What do you think will happen when that debt is called in.
It happened to the former Soviet Bloc but the shoe is on the other foot now and you will have to ask yourselves at some point
how did we let this happen and at that point not even a war will help for what was once the wealthiest nation earth change is a coming.
Ok Nostradamus. Thanks for the heads up.
bubba @ 111:
CUTE
bubba @ 109:
Russias already got Ukraine by the balls if they wish. You think Russias been laying around rotting in front of Televison or something this past 10 years?
OK as Nostradamus I would like to know what you think will accelerated NATO membership for Ukraine accomplish,
Do you think that Russia will just sit back and let it happen or like me do you think that they might over react just a little
I mean I think that would make them go Ape-SHIT.
And you ?
This great game of political maneuvering as you call it you forget has a real cost in human lives.
And history shows time and time again when the game is domination of one people over the other,
there is only one outcome and it is not good, Once one side feels that it has been dealt a game changing blow
with no way out thats when the shit hit's the fan.
Dennis @ 115:
It doesn't help with our side wanting to keep playing Cowboys and Indians over there.
When we invade Iran with 10 troops (one general, one colonel, one lieutenant colonel, one major, one Captain, one sergeant and four privates) we can just keep on going and invade Russia.
War is good especially if you have other priorities or can get a slot in the Texas Air National Guard.
Tyler Durden @ 94:
Considering, after 7 years, the USA still cannot secure (by comparison, tiny) Iraq, I think you should question "American Might" too, and weigh heavily whether you want to use that against Russia, or not. With Russia, you might find more problems than suicide bombers, or IED's, like nuclear submarines and a Navy, not to mention silos full of missiles, a 1,000,000 army, and a population of 160,000,000.
And, Russia's name is bad??? Seen yours (USA)??? Much of the world would cheer on Russia, at present!
L.A. Confidential @ 108:
L.A. Confidential @ 116:
No I would think that fixing things on the home front would be more important than a pipeline halfway round the world,
But you have to give them Kudos trying to look righteous what with Georgia being a democratically elected democracy (Ha Ha)
Can you say puppet only this puppet really wants to make this big his own page in the history books.
If Putin dose not get him first.
Not to worry, President McCain has sent his Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense to Georgia! Can you imagine the screams from Republicans if Obama was so presumptuous to do this?
Come on media, get off your asses.
L.A. Confidential @ 15:
It's incredible to think Saakashvili is an attorney and graduated from Columbia Law School in NYC! He speaks four languages and has a beautiful Dutch wife. He's tight with McCain's leading foreign policy adviser and has been buying weapons from Israel for many years. Israel is in the thick of this entire incursion into Ossetia and most likely many intelligence elements within the U.S.
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/mikhail_saa...
Georgia is nothing more than a U.S. satellite state. The same as Israel.
Here's a very interesting article on this entire debacle:
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article20517.htm
Rufus @ 121:
Listen if it comes to ever having to say President McCain you might as well pack your bags and move some ware that has no oil or anything
worth anything hunker down and kiss it all goodbye.
the poles, with american money, are going to buy the missile defense system
[All bold, CoIntelPro? Haven't we had this discussion? Site Monitor]
CoIntelPro for Pronktastic Victory Over SCLM, DIEBOLD, ESS and SEQUOIA! @ 124:
This statement from the Russians sounds well you tell me?
"Deployment of elements of the U.S. global antimissile system in Eastern Europe only makes the situation worse...
We will need to react to this adequately. Our American and European partners have been warned."
Dennis @ 125:
.
I don't think this is blustering, from the Rooskees. I think they mean business .
Reagan humiliated them, They damn sure won't let an asshat like the Preznit do the same.
Yes, I think the Rooskees will move on Ukraine ,Latvia, Moldova maybe Albania too. They are going to make a large land grab.
And there ain't a damn thing shrub can do about it. And the Rooskees know it.
The only thing that can deter them from moving , is if the rest of Europe stands in their way. And that didn't work out so well last time they did it. With all of Russia's new found wealth from natural resources. The shoe is on the other foot now.
Thanks Dubya, heck of a job.
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asshole.
I always hear about an "October surprise" during election season, but seriously, have we had one ever??? Closest one I can think of is Osama bin laden's video back in 2004....
mudshark @ 126:
.
. Ok forget Albania. I meant Lithuania and Estonia. Which puts Belarus in a very unenviable situation.
mudshark @ 126:
Not Albania. I think you mean Armenia.
Andy K Jong Il @ 129:
Yeah, that one too. This could get very ugly very fast.
Here's a map of the region. They could take back more if they wanted too.
pete @ 67:
He happened to be a "Superdelegate" for Hillary.
Abbybwood @ 122:
Your second link is seriously flawed. 300,000 Georgians didn't just leave Abkhazia and South Ossetia in 1991. They were forced out by Russian-backed separatist movements. Those regions were ethnically cleansed of Georgians, Abby. Somewhere between 20,000 and 30,000 Georgians died at the hands of Abkhazian separatists. The UN has recognized this.
And Russia was backing (read "arming") the South Ossetian separatists all along, until Georgia struck back last week. Doesn't it strike you as odd that Russia was so ready to invade? Also from that link, Stalin didn't put the South Ossetians under Georgian control, exactly. The area in which those Ossetians live was in Georgia until Russia snatched up Georgia in 1783. South Ossetia has been a part of Georgia since there was a Georgia, and that's at least 800 years, if not more.
Abbybwood @ 131:
Oh, stop it! Ron Paul ain't getting elected, Abby! Throwin' out the craptacular Obama/Clinton death lists only makes you look like a winger who sends out "secret muslim" bullshit.
The shooter was a guy who always went to work, never had a problem, who decided to graffiti his workplace and quit his job yesterday morning. But I suppose all berserkers can now be blamed on your political foes, huh?
Sometimes I don't know who to believe . But I think I'd listen to this guy before I committed to Saakashvili.
Leadership @ 44:
Perhaps you need to read a little more, Leapershit.
Cuba fell to Castro over the course of 1958-59; i.e., under Eisenhower's administration.
The 1953 Iranian coup d'etat happened in, of course, 1953 - also under Eisenhower's administration. Admittedly, the events that set it in motion have roots in Truman's administration, so I guess the Democrats can share blame with the Republicans on that one.
Rwanda is hardly relevant, as Clinton never made any promises to Rwanda, or encouraged the Rwanda gov't with promises of American support - that said, Clinton's efforts to alleviate the Rwandan genocide were blocked by the Republican congress.
Finally, starting in 1963, the Dominican Republic went through the election of Juan Bosch, a military overthrow of his government, a revolt to restore Bosch to power, followed by, basically, US installation of Balaguer - a Trujillo protege - as president. While Johnson's actions, IMO, kind of suck in that regard, if you're the winger I suspect you are, then I hardly see why you have a problem with the installation of a Trujillo protege. If you're not a winger, my apologies. In either event, I fail to see what promises were made, and then abandoned, by Johnson to Bosch.
So, you know: Grow up, bitch!
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if there was ever proof that we have overplayed our hand ( in the US ) here we have it
we are currently overextended militarily and present no current threat to Russia regarding their current intitiative
Doesn’t it strike you as odd that Russia was so ready to invade?
NO
But what dose strike me as odd is that a U.S. satellite state or as you might call it a democratically elected democracy (Ha Ha Ha)
puppet regime after all the opposition have been locked up as traitors, Could keep something like this a secret from their US handlers.
But the enemy (Russia) knows almost to the hour the attack will happen.
So ask yourself who got played here was it Russia? or maybe
? You have to tell me how this could happen a sneak attack
in the middle of the night repelled within hours of starting and nobody sees 500 tanks and 30,000 troops sitting just on the border.
Give me a break if you can't see something wrong with this tell me what you are smoking.
So now you have 1 Georgian President looking for a new place to live because he can't stay there because I think when they
change the name to fuckyouastan they will hang him.
All this has to make you think 500 tanks and 30,000 troops sitting just on the border and the US spy satellites don't see a thing
and the story is we did not think to watch Russia we were watching everybody else because we did not think Russia would do this.
The whole world knew that the US was poking Russia in the eye with this Georgia NATO thing, The only thing that bugs me in this whole
thing is to bad it did not happen sooner like when Karl Rove was there two weeks ago that would have been sweet to see him dragged
off to some Russian Gulag.
Nancy Pelosi is already busy appointing House Members to the newly formed Caucus To Liberate Georgia.
Well if rove was there 2 weeks ago, he definitely light a fire under someones ass.
John McCain Shirts @ 139:
Oh he was there as was Tony Blair not right there there was some big shindig and a bunch of the right wing NEO-CONS
were at it Karl was supposed to be testifying before congress at the time I bet they all had a great laugh about that.
kerplunk @ 138:
But she can`t do a fucking thing to liberate our constitution.
Dennis @ 137:
I can`t wait until the U.S> tries to install a missile site in Poland. Somehow I think the U.S. will re think this strategy after recent events and ditto Poland. The U.S. does not have the balls to mess with Putin.
Bubba's right; Russia is bad news, and it has nothing to do with the upcoming election. McCain would actually be worse at defending Georgia's interests because he's also in favor of keeping the United States hamstrung in Iraq at the same time. Sure he talks a good game but the numbers don't back him up. McCain would result in an even weaker US and ergo a weaker presence in the region, because he's erratic and unorganized and shoots from the hip.
Russia has been interested in encouraging instability in the region for a long time. Before the war started Georgia had already lost a few villages and an armoured vehicle in the area from South Ossetians armed with Russian support.
L.A. Confidential @ 113:
I dont think so. The Ukraine came out and told Russia that they might deny their ships access to the Crimean bases if they kept it up with Georgia. They don't sound very frightened of the energy cudgel. People eventually get tired of the local bully.
Mick Piobr @ 52:
Two useless cowards. What would they contribute?
the neo cons play the american people like a fine violin
in 2006 they slipped up but they learned
now 2008 with a black guy running for pres
they have to run negative
will give many americans a reason not to vote for a black guy
a cold war with russia will keep the american people in line
has worked for decades will continue to work
wash knows the american people the very best
But the facts are the facts and the people of the world know what really happened, we can’t be saying things like,
In the 21st century ‘Nations don’t invade other nations’ (some restrictions may apply)
I would ask should Russia have sought our advice and consent to protect the people of South Ossetia from the attack
in the middle of the night under guise of a truce from Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili just hours before.
And by what authority do we determine what Constitutes fair and just retribution to an attack on defenseless citizens.
a lesson must be learned from this and as it looks right now Russia wants to decide when Saakashvili has learned his lesson.
We Have Always Been At War With Eastasia - Orwell
Russia is playing for a good deal when they need to play on the superpower table again, they've lost the satellite states to Europe, even with the large ethnic russian populations in those states that moscow uses for political gain, The majority want Access to Europe (A big market, that's not the collapsing american one; or the chinese almost entirely export lead one that holds lots of increasingly worthless dollars and exports product mostly to a bankrupt nation) . Putin has built up Russia Inc. as an energy powerhouse, and needs to extract as much value from that NOW while it lasts, because ULTIMATELY it can't forever, and then they're at the mercy of China without allies.
China and russia represent Ultimate models of freemarket thinking Oligarchic Corporations replacing government, drowning government in a bathtub isn't neccessary, just stop pretendeing that you're interested in your subjects and start thinking about Global Market Share.
In this mornings news the ultimate hypocrisy by Bush
GORI, Georgia - President Bush demanded that Russia get out of Georgia, saying the people there have cast their lot with the free world and “we will not cast them aside.” Speaking in Washington, he said that “bullying and intimidation are not acceptable ways to conduct foreign policy in the 21st century.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26216434/
It's taking everything I have to not swear right now
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