(H/t David E)
The 2007 National Intelligence Estimate on Iran, when finally released after months of the Bush administration trying to get it changed without success,
said that "We judge with high confidence that in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program." Since then every major Western media outlet and political leader, especially
including Barack Obama, has done their level best to ignore that finding - well, after the wingnuts got over crowing about
how it proved Bush's invasion of Iraq was a good thing, at least - yet there's not a shred of real evidence for doing so.
Much of the narrative which allows the consensus view of the entire US intelligence community to be ignorable centers around the infamous "laptop of death" and around statements last year at a private briefing by the IAEA's Oli Heinonen. However, the documents contained upon the laptop are of
questionable provenance, probably
at least in part forged by
their provider - the MeK terrorist group - and in any case refer to programs from before 2003. Heinonen’s briefing likewise
referred to programs from before 2003 - as it would, since it was based on those laptop documents, given to the IAEA by George Schulte so that Hoinonen would brief members and Schulte could then leak his notes of that briefing to the media establishing a stage of plausiblity between him and the information. However, the information given at that briefing was public knowledge even in 2005, something not even mentioned by David "Judy in Drag" Sanger at the NYT when he recycled his 2005 report on the laptop's information for his widely cited 2008 report on the briefing.
By this weekend, Sanger had entirely dismissed the NIE and was willing to bend the IAEA's findings and briefings all out of shape in service of the narrative. David Sanger may be the finest stenographer for his "unofficially official" sources at the White House in the history of journalism.
The IAEA's assessment to date is in full agreement with the NIE: that there "is no evidence that the weapons program continued after 2004" but you'd be forgiven if you hadn't realized that, as much reporting on the subject has
deliberately played games with tense. Given that's there's no evidence that Iran has a current nuclear weapons program, warmongers have been reduced to
arguing that there's no proof positive that it doesn't. The inability to prove a negative, to prove "evidence of absence" was what got us into Iraq too, so they hope it serves again.
Unfortunately,
Obama's recent statements would indicate that it will serve again.
On Sunday he told George Stephanoupolis that "they are pursuing a nuclear weapon that could potentially trigger a nuclear arms race".
The conversation continued:
STEPHANOPOULOS: And you have to do something about it in your first year.
OBAMA: Andwe are going to have to take a new approach. And I've outlined my belief that engagement is the place to start. That the international community is going to be taking cues from us in how we want to approach Iran.
And I think that sending a signal that we respect the aspirations of the Iranian people, but that we also have certain expectations in terms of how a international actor behaves, is…
(CROSSTALK)
STEPHANOPOULOS: But a new emphasis on respect.
OBAMA: Well, I think a new emphasis on respect and a new emphasis on being willing to talk, but also a clarity about what our bottom lines are. And we are in preparations for that. We anticipate that we're going to have to move swiftly in that area.
That sounds nice but if
Dennis "walks with neocons" Ross is really
to be given the Iran brief, as rumors indicate then it's simply more of the same pretence at engagement while actually being as obstructive as possible -
playing the negotiation game as part of a campaign to pressure Iran alongside constant threat of attack.
"This may be the best example in recent times of highly coordinated threat of force against a country to bring about diplomatic solution...I'm not sure," said Ret. Marine Corps Gen. Joseph Hoar, the former head of CENTCOM, the military command responsible for the whole of the Middle East. "[...F]or people that think this is serious, I would put it in the utter folly department."
Crossposted From Newshoggers
have spoken.
Thank you very much.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
and the CIA.
Ignore AIPAC.
Thank you very much.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
"Ignore AIPAC."
No, I don't think so.
there's a better way!
http://www.alternet.org/audits/119050/
this is CHANGE? Is war all we have to look forward to? War and poverty? What kind of people are you listening to? Not the kind who think of us, that's for sure.
Agree.
Agree.
And agree.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
The ones who were called closet-Republicans or DINO's?
Well, we're still here, still watching Obama. And he's continuing to disappoint.
This is just the latest example.
I totally agree. I have unfortunately been aware of Obama's turnabout since, oh, Nov. 5. I am so disgusted that I barely follow it anymore. It's sad that Obama rolled over even before he was sworn into office.
first we hit them with a switch, if that dont work well thiers allways the old louisville slugger , same old shit !different day!
i'm giving Obama the benefit of the doubt. Two points I would make. We don't know what he knows from his recent briefings about Iran's plans. He's talking about talking, not bombing.
Obama said Iran IS pursuing a nuclear weapon.
According to the NIE, they are not.
He's been had.
Says that there is no NUCLEAR WEAPONS programs.
This is also the opinion of other experts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfuG0Agtb6Y&fe...
I hope that OBAMA with his new CIA staff, can get better "Intelligence" because the NEOCON's so far Has a very LOW IQ.
Scott Ritter? Isn't he the one who said this to Amy Goodman on 4/28/08?
"and I would say that it’s a virtual guarantee that there will be a limited aerial strike against Iran in the not-so-near future—or not-so-distant future, that focuses on the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Command."
I'd say he was vitually wrong.
you remind me of the GOP loons in the 2001 to 2003 time frame. Yeah, the more things change... the more they stay the same.
Change you can smell, I guess.
You are trying to discredit him.
Indeed OLMERT asked BUSH support for doing so:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/...
This is the interview with Amy Goodman:
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/4/28/un_nucl...
They could't do it to IRAN so they went for an Easier enemy ( HAMAS )fabricating the ROCKETS CRISIS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SILJxPTqjAM&fe...
He was wrong. Dead wrong. It happens.
Let's not lose the point. I'm giving Obama the benefit of the doubt on Iran. He says they are working towards a nuclear weapon. Maybe they are. Personally I don't blame them for doing so, but Obama's not talking about blowing shit up. He's talking about opening up lines of communication with Iran. Great! Go for it. I just don't buy all this BS about him being just like Bush in his thinking. He's not. Give him some time to prove it.
I was convined that Bush would start something with Iran just to juice things up for the election.
Bush hasn`t gone yet. Tick toc, tick toc.......
That NIE is two years old.
are ongoing, and still find no evidence of a program converting spent fuel rods into weapons.
http://www.correntewire.com/which_vastleft_ap...
mole?
She has been criticized by Howard Zinn.
Zinn is irrelevant. He is intellectually dishonest. He claims it is unimportant and not worth his time to investigate the Official History of Nine 11.
...that...coming from a so-called historian...
...blinders...
Thanks for the info. Do you have a link or remember where you read this?
so indeed why would anyone waste time studying it?
Can you provide the whole quote in its actual context?
his comments are here in this video from a conference in Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WXU4eir-i8
...to investigate 9/11 to find the truth because we already have enough proof of Bush's crimes >> maybe that's true.
But, how about if we investigate it to get the truth out to the people of the world so everyone can go around hating neo-con elitist pigs, instead of just your every day Arab ....??? That might help with the whirled peas...
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
He says explicitly he does not believe the official story. He is just saying that it is not in his lists of priorities to investigate 911.
What the heck is wrong with that?
...having a real investigation and Proving who the actual perpetrators and those behind them were, would go a long way a) toward bringing them to justice and b) giving some peace for the hearts/minds of all those who lost folks at the WTC and in the wars. And, perhaps it would help us to avoid such a terrible thing in the future.
Mr. Zinn can have an opinion and prioritize whatever he
wants - I can do the same, no?
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
They will never find, or for that matter prosecute, anyone who murdered Bhutto. That is where America is now. Those in power, or the rich, do not live by the law, and the ever larger number of poor live under the ruthless, merciless law.
none of the Naderites in this comment section are fit to lick Howard Zinn's boots! he doesn't believe in discredited 9/11 conspiracies, so he's "intellectually dishonest"!! Oh, I'll be laughing about that one for a while! the ability of some people to project their own shortcomings onto others, never ceases to amaze me.
First mistake : talking to Stuffinenvelopes , tool of Sean Hannity .
If you know the history of US, Iran relations for the last 60 years, you would truly understand why Iran is so nervous having the US in 2 countries on it's border and would want nuclear weapons, not to attack Israel but as defense against the US.
Oh please. Are we going to start calling it a "failed presidency" before the inauguration like they said about Clinton? I know it's not too Christian of me but might we wait at least till he's in office before we burn him at the stake?
Hardly.
But while we're on this topic of Iran .
Why do you think Boosh attacked Iraq?( Besides the personal vendetta)
It was to flank Iran. We were already in Afghanistan. So by invading Iraq, we put Iran in a vise.
I still think the loose nukes were meant for Israel.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
About Iraq - Iran - mainly to steal their energy resources (oil/gas)
and set up forward military bases...
..also, there should have been a broader investigation about the
"mishandling" of those nukes. It was a very poor story they made up and there has been precious little follow-up - where are those nukes now, Sderot?
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
Take the fall for that? Or was it a Lt Colonel?
Or maybe some Lt and a Staff Sergeant.
Not much of a toodoo over it. Brushed it under the rug very quickly.
Can you imagine? The audacity of thinking "we'll just strap um on the wings and no one will notice".
scary.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
low on the military totum pole committed "suicide" over it if I'm not mistaken. The one who first reported it.
..I read some stuff about several lower level military guys involved who seemed to have "fatal accidents" if you get my drift. Don't remember where I read it, though.
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
drift. One man, a boy really, of twenty got leave for a couple of weeks for "depression" and his folks found him dead.
The military industrial complex doesn't fool around.
More nukes for our masters.
The only change is the cast of charactors.
/consult your programs.
They're not that different.
yes, we all know that Dems and Repugs are disappointingly similar on foreign policy. they are all idiots.
they are very, very different on domestic policy, and anyone pretending otherwise is either wilfully ignorant or just a liar. but y'all have fun with talking up Ralph Nader's dumb ass! why people even still bring him up I don't get, he does not have serious policy positions. but its always easy to take pot shots, isn't it?
!?!?
Nader has done more for you than your own mother, who, in terms of good manners, appears to have done not very much.
Here are some crucial non differences between the Republicans and Democrats.
Financial Modernization Bill of 1999 - Nov 1999 repeal Glass Steagall - same.
Commodities Futures and Modernization Act of 2000 - same.
Credit Card Company enrichment bill of 2006 - same.
The previous three contributed mightily to our present financial turmoil.
The onerous Patriot Act,
the onerous Military Commissions Act
and the onerous FISA revamp - same.
The 2008 bail out of the fat cat Wall Street Crooks- same.
Every time the Democrats come down on the same side with the Republicans for the Corporations.
With a few exceptions a few brave souls like Kucinich.
And you say Ralph Nader has no serious policy position?!?!
He is consistently anti corporate political power and he has been unwavering in that for forty years.
Here is Nader on the bailout: Jail TIme Not Bail Time.
The fat cat crooks should be going to jail, not to the bank with our money.
Where are the Republicrats on that. They are bought and paid for with Wall Street money.
The above link will give links for Nader's positions on the following:
Where are the Democrats on any of these, right there with the Republicans in the pockets of the Corporations.
You need to do some home work.
Here is Nader on his full range of public policy positions.
Read his position on labor law, he is the only one for repealing the onerous Taft Hartley act.
Read his position on single payer health care, a position favored by the majority of heath care professionals.
Read all his positions.
Do research before you shoot off your mouth.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
That's why booshco has been pushing the "bad-intelligence" argument so reports like this can be discounted as, "see, they've been wrong before."
Additionally, it's a matter of semantics, do they have a nuclear weapons program, or are they working on a nuclear weapons program?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
When I heard Obama make the "Iran is seeking nuclear weapons" claim on TW, it didn't sit right with me, but I wasn't sure why. I didn't quite remember (or know 100%) that recent intelligence reports claimed otherwise. I fall prey to thinking, "maybe he knows something we don't" and end up dismissing the comment.
Add this to my growing list of concerns about Obama falling into "The Bush Inertia Trap". :(
* There are two types of Republicans: millionaires and suckers.
"Mugsy's Rap Sheet": Recording history for those who seek to rewrite it.
A couple of summers ago, Alan Greenspan came out with his book whose name escapes me at the moment. But in it he stated, just as he did on his book tour, that the only reason we invaded Iraq was for its oil. O'kay, I can buy that.
Now this from Obama?!?! I sincerely hope he's being honest in wanting to go green, because the sooner we find an alternative to oil, the sooner these conflicts will end. That is unless he is already in the back pockets of the military/industrial complex which has a significant vested financial interest in selling everything from bombs to radar systems.
Doubt it. Oil is a fungible commodity. There is plenty of oil on the world market to make war unnecessary. How many barrels of oil would three trillion dollars buy? We could have all that and a couple thousand more Americans around if we were honest about oil.
We need to replace using oil for transportation, the rest is just inconvenience. We will always be a consumption culture and we need that oil to make our products.
in my criticism over his apparent direction on torture. There are a series of dominoes that will fall in the chain of events an investigation will unleash. It is no small task to seek charges of war crimes which could end in a president's execution.
However the Iran position is inexcusable. During his debate with McCain both candidates repeated the assertion that Ajmadinejad stated he wanted to wipe Israel off the map. That translation has been proven incorrect.
in his current policy direction, we will come to view this as the time the American people elected a corporatist, establishment president on a grassroots, netroots financing campaign.
This time the corps tricked the people into buying their candidate for them.
that would be my estimation , and ive said it from the first!obummers a ringer !
That's why he put your gal at State.
was that before when he was against fisa? or after when he was for fisa?
I'm still backing him. I think time will tell. I don't buy the "corporate lackey" label. We'll see soon enough.
What mattered was his vote.
And he voted for immunity for the telecoms who broke the law.
want to. I don't see diplomacy as off the table in anything he says. Kind of like the minions on the other side - nothing will shake those who think they know it all.
Left wingnuts are just the opposite end of the spectrum. No different in nature, no difference in intentional ignorance.
Why don't you try reading something like the Nation!
tell you what i hear, and its straight from the horses mouth, obummer says that thiers going to be our troops still in iraq all the way up to the end of his first term in office, obummer says hes going to get more of our guys killed in afganistan and hes going to enlarge that war, hes said irans a threat to israel and to america , hope you can alibi that for him, its pretty much what bush wanted , or were my ears and eyes failing me when he said it on cnn?
Obama's and Bush's position on Israel's war on Gaza are so similar that if Obama were to elaborate, nobody would be able to tell them apart!
Bush and Obama on the same page? Oh yes, on a lot of issues. But the bread and circus is the hemlock of Democracy. The best that Obama could do is adhere to the articles of the Constitution and apply them in earnest to American policy.
didn't say she would obliterate Iran?
hillarys our candyass rice sellout! shes right where she can do the most dammage!
If he's putting in Dennis Ross as Iran diplomat then it would appear that diplomacy is off the table since Dennis Ross is a bomb bomb bomb Iran kind of guy.
the primaries were heating up, I believe it was Harper's magazine that did an in-depth article on Mr. Obama. That magazine has long gone to the recycling bin but I wish I could find it. I did not read the article, giving all my attention to Kucinich. Damn, wish I had because it was a warning.
Does this ring a bell with anyone?
I remember, Kucinich supporters were the ones with blinders on.
got milk?
he just struck a note of truth. I don't trust any of them but Dennis seemed to say what I wanted to hear from a Progressive candidate.
Dennis would offer real change and reverse long-standing policy positions, so that ensures his marginalization.
And, of course, Ron Paul. Nobody that honest could ever be allowed to take the national stage.
These folks lost. Obama won. I'd give any of them significant time in office before I'd be jammin' them, and I'm sure you'd be asking for the same had your horse won. No?
Of course. But the writing has been on the wall even before the election.
The only change you will get is that now the lies are coming out of a black man's mouth.
Sure, I would love for Obama to embrace real, significant and lasting change in the areas of foreign, economic and energy policies, but that isn't going to happen.
Will Obama continue this farcical farce called the War of Terror? You bet!
Will Obama expand and entangle the US military in foreign operations? You bet!
Will Obama change the National Security Strategy and acknowledge that a Pax Americana is not a praiseworthy goal? Of course not!
Review this comment in one year, and you will see.
do not make assumptions.
Some of us are of the belief that we live in a democracy, not a monarchy. And that our president and/or elected president are open for criticism when they fuck up, regardless of their political affiliation or personal kindness.
What a concept, eh?
Depends on how fast they started reversing their stated campaign positions.
In Obama's case? Before he's even inaugurated? That's pretty damn fast!
http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/01/12/opinio...
When the war criminal Kissinger is singing your praises and savoring the thoughts that your administration will usher in a New World Order, a new international order, whatever...
Yea!!! We have someone other than Bush to bring along the New World Order proclaimed openly by Bush 41.
when Kissinger AND Chris Hitchens both support the same guy?
or PAT ROBERTSON might have as well been jerry fallwell!
not so much about Obama.
I was curious as to when the American public will realize that Obama will not bring any significant change in foreign policy. He had previously deposited his soul in AIPAC's donation box well before the election.
Iran is not a threat to the US. Neither is Lebanon, Syria or any other target on JINSA's list!
What is a threat to the US is a military-industrial complex that wastes trillions of dollars, needed resources and human lives. Maybe we could scatter the ashes of Gaza victims at his inauguration or have the MeK deliver an introductory speech.
I guess he realizes now that he is on the inside that no change will be allowed. I wonder how long the American public will take to realize this?
Any Nader bashers here?
Give it a couple years more and you'll realize the Dems are no better, and hardly separate, from the Repugs.
Hey, but we won, right?
Two arms of the same monster, but it provides meaningless distraction while the real shit is going down! The Democrats voted for war, continued funding for war, trillions to wall street and all the rest of it.
Mid-term elections saw an expansion of projected US military power. 2008 election will see the same. The American people are easily fooled - again and again.
You guys never give up do you? This is the "Bitter Loser's" thread. So quick to call for Obama's head. What say we do give it two years and then let's see how things are. I'm willing to wait at least till he gets in office.
I will be dead. It's my child and grandchildren I am concerned about in a country that offers either flipping hamburgers or joining the military.
My daughter has an MA and was going for her Phd. Lots of loans to pay back and she is driving a forklift!
And the sweet unsuspecting faces of my grandchildren. I dread what the world will do to them.
All we want is some semblance of who we voted for and what he said to get elected. Is that too much to ask for? No.
Why would someone who claims to care about their children ever vote?
If you think anything is going to change in 7 days or even 7 months than you are welcome to finish the rest of your Kool Aid.
well i dont think obummers going to be anyones darling by this time next year, by then even the die hards will be turning thier soap boxes they preach on into kindling!
Pick ANY two years of Bush's terms.
The wrong man can do A LOT of damage in two years.
Asking for 2 years grace before he's subject to criticism, is ASININE! He'll be criticised when he deserves it.
You seriously must be dumber then a goddamn rock. In your little bubble world anyone who critizes Obama must not have supported him>?? I voted for him in the Primary and I voted for him in the General and I'm damn sure as hell goign to critizise the stupid moves he is making now!!!!!!!!! Got a problem with that? Then too frigging bad!!!!!!!
What would Jack Bauer Do?
Yeah yeah, I know.
I just had to do it.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
He would probably pick up Obama's playbook thinking it was Bush's and continue his mindless quest for violence.
Obama's foreign policy, brought to you by AIPAC. That laptop is the Iranian bin Laden confession video, a fabricated pretext for our next invasion and war.
Glad I didn't vote for Obama.
They're going to leave these good people in a heap of rubble too.
Find this show on your tv and watch it as soon as you can.
This should be required watching for every meathead that thinks we should bomb them.
Maybe they're right, we are the great satan.
http://www.ricksteves.com/iran/iran_menu.htm
Iran may be a better ally for peace in the middle east many times on C&L.
I am not a diehard Obama fan. Hillary's campaing made it easier to support his candidacy.
I have said let's get him elected and then mobilize to work for progressive causes. Where the hell do you think you'd be if palin and mccain were to be sworn in next week?
I will not act like a 12 year old in discussing matters they way many here have done in this thread. The juvenile delinquents that I work with show more maturity than say...tyree with his obummer wah wah.
Backtachoo.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
1's & 0's!
Why don't you argue him on points whether than style?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
ever use?
well i certainly thank you for the fact that you help delinequents, but i suspect your letting them rub off on you!when i state facts about obummers stated intentions such as staying the course as bush has wanted keeping america involved in the subjugation of iraq by stationing garrison troops in iraq for years to come and enlargeing the war in afganistan ect ect , just how am i supposed to have any faith in a man who prolongs these two wars that we have condemed bush cheny for ever since he started them? and it seems as if his views on israels war on the palistanians are the same as obummers , and on jan the 20th obummer will if he continuies the bush wars as he says hes going too why should i wait two years to voice my displasure on his bush policys? you want me to set back and ignore that just the wars alone will out of nessacity force us to accept four more years of being spyed on under fisa, and being forced to endure four more years of free speach zones and the patriot act , more years of the fools cramming homeland security down our throuts , jesus man whats it take to convince you that obummers a corporate lacky?
ARE idiots!
http://www.alternet.org/audits/119372/pro-isr...
Did I hear him say Iran IS pursuing a nuke?? Jesus H christ, who the hell should I believe?? Did the NeoCons hide a pod in his bedroom?
Government + the Federal Reserve = organized crime
They hid a pod in his pud.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
the NIE is still misleading. its not as though there was evidence of actual attempts to make nukes pre 2003-04, its just that by the time their program was developed enough to start reprocessing spent fuel rods into weaponizable stuff, they didn't do it, and therefore the "program" didn't "continue past then". in other words, there has never been any proof of intent to build nuclear weapons, other that what can most likely be called some very bad, 'Curveball-esque', intelligence ala Iraq. the whole thing is bullshit, and its quite sad and infuriating that Obama just buys into it and lies about it when we all know better. very disappointing.
Even after 911 Americans are still too pollyannish and happy go lucky to question cheesy intelligence. This worries me, Obama seems like a smart man that understands nuance so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. The right wing pollyannish cretins will be suckered by neocon propaganda, I hope and pray America at large won't.
Politics is for the present, but an equation is for eternity. Albert Einstein
This has been pissing me off for months. I cannot understand why Obama and everybody else keeps talking about Iran trying to develope nuclear weapons when the NIE clearly says that they are not. But I knew this going in. He's been using this rhetoric all along and I still voted for him. At least he's open to diplomacy unlike the last idiot in cheif.
If Obama can't say anything about Israel's attack on Gaza because his remarks might complicate Condi Rice's "delicate secret negotiations" (yeah, right-- give me a break), then why should he be saying anything about US-Iran diplomacy when his remarks might complicate Condi Rice's "delicate secret negotiations" (yeah, right-- give me a break)?
Let's face it-- US foreign policy under the Democrats is going to be the same (just publicly more polite perhaps) as US foreign policy under the Republicans. Same amount of bombs and dead civilians-- but with a nicer tone of imperial voice.
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