Blue Dogs, Birthers and Bullet Fetishes
By Cliff Schecter Thursday Jul 30, 2009 3:00pmSo last week the Thune Amendment was thankfully defeated. A group I work with, Mayors Against Illegal Guns, took on the task of defeating this insane legislation, which only had a chance of passing due to the extremism of the NRA/Birther crowd and the ever-present cowardice of the usual Blue Dog Democrats.
I guess they weren't busy enough trying to destroy health care reform or climate-change legislation, so overriding state laws trying to prevent criminals from enjoying the right to concealed carry seemed like a good idea.
Thankfully, the NRA lost a gun battle for the first time in five years, but no thanks to squeamish Blue-Dog Democrats. Take Colorado Democratic Senators Udall and Bennet, for example. They waited to the end to vote, as if calculating which way to go right up until the last possible moment, and then voted with the gun nuts. Interestingly, two Republicans from generally pro-gun states, Senators George Voinovich of Ohio and Dick Lugar of Indiana, didn't feel a need to cave to the Bonkers Wing of the GOP. Nor did some other Democrats from pro-gun states, like Senators Claire McCaskill of Missouri, Bill Nelson of Florida and Sherrod Brown of Ohio.
In response, a Columbine dad, who suffered what is the nightmare scenario for all of us with children in school, decided to remind these two men about what is and is not leadership in today's Denver Post. It says everything that needs to be said on this issue, as well as a host of others the Blue Dogs continue to practice duck & cover.
Sadly, the biggest threat to rational legislating right now is not from Republicans, who are and should be irrelevant, but from Blue Dogs. These people need to be taught not to fear their big contributors, but We The People.
(**As I stated in the piece, I am working with Mayors Against Illegal Guns.)
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affluent families. Maybe we should start screening people who want to have kids for our own safety.
A Breeding Permit
Criminals conceal carry all the time. Trying to paint legal law abiding citizens as criminals because they legally conceal carry is just plain crazy/stupid/wignuttery.
Columbine would of been a lot worse if the kids hadn't been so incompetent at bomb making.
With the rhetoric your group is using you should change your name to Mayors against legal guns. Seriously no one is for allowing illegal guns to be bought and sold in the open.
EDIT : If anyone is a "gun nut" its you and your little group..
Just because a law only stops those who follow the law doesn't make it useless. By that rationale we should just get rid of all laws since illegal actions by nature are committed by those who don't follow the law.
I'm hoping your solution to gun violence isn't that more people carry guns. As one who has experience on both sides of the barrel, I like living in a city where gun possession is incredibly difficult (NYC). Yes, maybe only the criminals have guns here, but at least the non-criminals who occasionally "snap" and go postal (i.e. the Columbine kids, Jim Adkisson, etc...) don't have the weapons in their possession.
Laws don't stop crime, they cut down on crime.
(I assume that you mean "purchase legally".) Isn't NYC still awash in gun crimes from guns purchased out-of-state?
I've lived in NYC for 11 years now. I've only had a gun pulled on me once: by a cop. And I'm a scrawny white guy who has lived in some really tough neighborhoods in Brooklyn.
Growing up in Oregon I had three guns pulled on me in six years by homophobes.
Try knowing about a place before assuming the stereotype from TV crime dramas are true.
I've never been there. I suppose I should have rephrased it along the lines of "Is it difficult to purchase handguns legally in NYC? And how much gun crime is committed with such weapons?"
I've lived (chiefly) in SoCal and Miami. VERY easy to buy guns in FL, probably less so (if judging by the much smaller number of gun stores is any indication, anyhow.) Procuring handguns illegally is VERY easy throughout LA/Orange County area, however.
I highly doubt that much if any of the gun crime in NYC is committed with legally purchased guns as it is very difficult, time consuming and expensive to get a license in the city and even harder to get a concealed permit. But my point isn't that the law stops gun crimes, it's that it cuts down on gun crimes.
No one who is a criminal is going to get too concerned about the laws for any reason other than if they are a smart criminal they will try to avoid it when possible as to not get busted on a small offense which opens them up to further investigations for their larger criminal activity (ie. drug dealer getting busted for carrying a concealed weapon is then found to have a kilo in the trunk).
The purpose is so that when someone who is not a criminal falls on hard times or has becomes irrationally agitated they don't pop off a few rounds as we have seen happen so much in this country. Many of the shootings in the news over the past few years have not been done by "criminals" but frustrated, emotionally unstable people with an axe to grind or lashing out at those they feel have wronged them. In NYC, these people do not have guns sitting around the house "for protection or sport" and so we don't have nearly as much "random" gun violence per capita as the rest of the country. We still have plenty of random assaults, crazed conspiracy nuts shouting on the street corner and all that stuff. Heck, we've had people killed by someone dropping a brick out a window and I've personally had a knife pulled on me once.
Again, it's not that gun violence is the only violence or that gun laws stop criminals from using them. The laws do cut down on gun violence.
And I concur with you on the implementation and effectiveness of gun laws; I was not arguing for the arming of more of "us" to combat "them."
And my apologies if my first post was a bit accusatory. I have a sore spot with all the demonization of my city. Between the idea that it's a violent and crime infested hellhole and the "Real America" slander of the past few years (Why terrorists would attack non-America is beyond my understanding) it's really frustrating how much crap is said about a city that is actually a great place to live with diversity, culture, energy and opportunity.
I've been able to have experiences, achievements and opportunities here that could never have happened anywhere else. I have a great life in large part because of this city, one that would be impossible anywhere else in this country - possibly anywhere.
I submit to congress that serial numbering bullets would be a cheap re-tooling for the industry, and it would ensure the responsible use of firearms.
Anyone that abides by the law, and fires their weapon responsibly, no matter what the situation, has nothing to hide nor fear.
That is my opening argument. How the bullets would be tracked and traced is a secondary question that i have some ideas on too... btw -we do know where the bullets originate already, since there's only a few places all bullets come from, but that's another story.
can buy a gun apparently they just put on their smile and nice guy act at the show or some dealer and the deals done. Apparently.
I heard something like that (serial numbered bullets)was in the works.
Something has to be done.
I have no problem with responsible gun owners but they were never a problem in the first place.
Here is it:
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/are_sta...
Right. Well that's their argument against all things regulated under the sun. bullets need to get in line. They have a right to have and use guns and we all have a right to know what and whom they're shooting.
Bullet control - All bullets should cost $5,000.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDC-XQG1ifo&eu...
on bullets would not be a cheap re-tooling. Plus you have to add in the costs for record keeping.
And where do you get the idea that bullets only come from a few places? I know numerous people that make their own. Its quite easy in fact.
Also what about people who reload ammo?
... have to do with anything? A previous post of yours on this subject made the allegation that the Thune Amendment would allow AK-47s in your child's classroom. A complete fabrication.
Now, the Thune Amendment is going to cause "the nightmare scenario for all of us with children in school"?
Fearmonger much?
BTW, any of these mayors you work for have any problem themselves being protected by firearms?
I know one of the biggest supporters of limiting firearm ownership to those loyal to the Establishment is Mayor Daley of Chicago - a man who has been protected by guns from the hour of his birth through the present day.
If you have a legitimate argument on the merits, Cliff, please make it. But this "criminals will be allowed to bring automatic weapons into your children's classroom" is, at the very best, highly misleading. At the very best.
to offset the health care costs caused by them. Inspired by Chris Rock's $5,000 bullets, and cigarette taxes.
Just another sin tax, really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDC-XQG1ifo
When I first heard Chris do that bit - I thought "no kiddin" $5,000 a bullet would make one very careful about using them.
and a 10 dollar bullet would leave the shit to the truly serious. And I'd make jacketed bullets and other high powered shit REALLY expensive.
About a year ago I went into a Wal-Mart in Oregon and bot a box of .44 caliber bullets for my cousin and I to go to the shooting range and try out his dad's Magnum. It was under $20 and they didn't ask for ID.
http://www.stinque.com/2009/07/30/crowley-the...
Or donut...
Rahm Emanuel has a lot to answer for as head of the DCCC in 2006 when he recruited the majority of these conservatives and convinced them to run as Democrats.
The only other option was to let those districts go GOP - lose a majority and that was a worse option.
Rahm made a deal with the devil but it was all on the up and up.
If there is such a thing.
But the facts are that if this bill had passed anyone could have gotten a carry permit in a gun-nut state, say Texas or Florida or Oklahoma, and been able to carry it to a state that doesn't have such standards.
And here I thought you wingnuts believed in states rights ... but once again you want the federal gov't to step in to force your views on everyone else.
And for the record? I believe in the 2nd amendment as an individuals' right to bear arms. I just don't think concealed pistols are the right way to do it. I've carried rifles, shotguns and when it was necessary to have it, a pistol in full view. Never once had to point them at anyone.
BTW, Lugar (R-IN) did the right thing. Bayh (D-IN) voted against states' rights.
To the thinking folks on this site, we really, really need to target Bayh next Sen election.
Do you really want people to think about Columbine when thinking about limiting gun rights? Implicit in the arguments about gun "control" is the notion that we can and should rely upon law enforcement for our protection.
It's a notion that has not only no legal basis whatsoever (police are not legally obligated to protect anyone aside from special, quite limited circumstances), but is also a notion that Columbine completely obliterates.
The entire nation watched as many very heavily armed and armored police officers hid behind trees and squad car doors looking tough and listening to gunmen executing unarmed children for over a half an hour - and did absolutly nothing.
They wouldn't even go into the building until the the gunmen had committed suicide. Just how much more trust should we give these people?
Hey, they're fantastic on TV; they save like a hundred lives a week - sometimes that many in one episode. Unfortunately, in the real world, they are often far more concerned with their own safety than the public's.
Columbine only emphasized that reality.
[on edit - this was not supposed to be a comment reply, but an independent comment]
duh
I just messed up on posting my comment. It wasn't meant as a reply to yours. Sorry.
it was just such an obvious non sequitur.
But once again, Columbine is not the subject.
The subject is if your locality gives you a carry permit, for whatever reason, that doesn't make it reasonable for other states/localities to honor it.
But the post made it the subject. That was my problem.
On the merits, I see little difference with states honoring other state's (even other country's) drivers licenses. There are different age requirements, training requirements, and so on. It's not like I can live in New York and go to another state and get either a driver's license or a carry permit.
Anyway, sorry for the mix up. My bad.
That hiding behind trees while children were dying part still bothers me to this day. What exactly do these people get paid for? Giving out traffic tickets?
Back in April I took a trip down to Waco for the anniversary of the ATF seige and met one of the survivors. We talked for hours about it and I can't get the image of his burn scars out of my mind. Why law enforcement felt they needed to raid a church with a militarized force in the attempt to arrest one man is beyond me. Especially when he went jogging through the neighborhood with only a few people every couple of days, did business in town weekly and sold guns at the gun shows often (the reason he was being arrested).
That said, Waco also proves that the old idea that armed revolt is possible is sort of out dated. Good luck rising up against the ATF, Blackwater and all the other forces they would unleash upon such an attempt.
Yeah, Koresh was a nut who thought he needed guns to protect himself and his followers from being murdered by the government.
He was certainly paranoid; but can anyone really say he was wrong?
All I see with this issue is more authoritarian excuses. The Culture War can be stoked from the Left as well as the Right.
And what just else is this post about? The Thune Amendment has already been defeated. Is this really anything more than a "Let's get the gun nuts" exhortation?
We've seen plenty of Culture War nonsense from the left since the Dems have taken solid control of 2/3 of government (even on this site). Divide and conquer. Give more authority to the Establishment or there will be AK-47s in your child's classroom.
You don't want your kids to die, do you?
WTF?
A lesson in pragmatism and experience. Richard Lugar started his political career as the mayor of Indianapolis.
Evan Bayh, on the other hand, grew up in preppie privilege in the DC suburbs. He's the poster child for DINOs: his dad was a genuine progressive populist, but Evan is not even fumes of Birch.
I am not surprised by either vote.
I read the text of the amendment, I didn't have a problem with it, and I'm sorry it didn't pass.
I live in the northern tip of Delaware. I have a Delaware CCDW permit and a PA non-resident permit. I can carry in 22 states... but I can't drive five miles west on Route 40, or cross the Delaware Memorial Bridge, without disarming.
That's just plain stupid. I am every bit as law-abiding in New Jersey as I am at home.
The states have retained the right to deny Americans their second-amendment rights, which is apparently just fine with many Democrats... the same Democrats who (rightly) seek to keep states from curtailing other civil liberties, whether specifically mentioned in the Constitution or not.
You'll be happy to know that many on the hard right wing agreed with you: they were against the Thune amendment because it violated the same states' rights argument they use to fight gay marriage and abortion.
As someone who lives in NYC and lived in Jersey City for a while, I'm glad you can't bring your concealed weapon in. It's not about you, the sane guy who likes his gun. It's about the Jim Adkisson-types who might decide my liberal Sodom and Gomorrah needs to be cleansed. Heck, with the crazy traffic here, if we let people carry guns around there'd be a cab driver getting shot every day. :)
The "Jim Adkisson-types" don't obey gun laws.
That's the point.
You can pass any gun restrictions imaginable, and I will obey them. I study the gun laws, making damn sure I never break one.
The vast majority of permit holders are exactly like me. All of us passed one or more background checks before a permit was issued (unlike merely owning a gun, which can easily be arranged on the black market). I've never been charged with a crime that would make you, or the judges on the Delaware Superior Court who ruled on my permit application, nervous.
The people you fear -- sensibly -- don't need a permit to commit unspeakable violence. They calmly violate the gun laws, knowing that what they are about to do will be far worse than a mere gun possession crime.
You, however, would need a permit if you wanted to shoot back. You won't have one... and that's why I don't choose to live in New Jersey, or New York City.
so true.
I used to be a cab driver, and now I carry a gun in some of the worst traffic that exists outside NYC, so let me address that if I may:
-- Cab drivers don't fear legal gun owners. We fear getting shot in the back of the head by a kid with a stolen revolver. That fear is not assuaged by gun laws.
-- People who carry guns legally are the most polite, non-confrontational people on God's gray Earth. My middle finger hasn't been seen in isolation since June 2005... except when I'm on the New Jersey Turnpike, because then I'm unarmed.
this whole bunch of bullshit was so they could privatize the FBI/ATF and replace them with mercs like Xe
They've started privatizing everything else (the military, prisons, schools...) why not privatize our security forces?
I know it sounds stupid, but RoboCop is one of the best political commentaries against privatizing essential industries ever. If your idea ever starts becoming a reality, I think there should be a re-release of it into theaters.
so each Department doesn't need their own, easier to get out of lawsuits if something goes sour, just change names
if this is the reason is to check the donations to the NRA and the bill sponsors to see if there is heavy donations from the merc outfits
well I am a truck driver and I sure would like the right, after registering, doing safety courses, and getting the screening to carry a weapon in my truck. I am in it for sometimes months in every neighborhood. I have been chased by gangs and jumped in indiana. The fact is is that there are dangerous people out there and most of the time there is not a cop around. As it stands now it is illegal for a driver to carry a weapon. I don't want to have it on me all the time but concealed and in my Semi. That would be nice.
I don't get when this rabid anti gun and projection as if there is something wrong with wanting a gun comes from but it wasn't there before the election and now it seems as if that was one of the goals. The fact is is that I am not a big guy and I have expensive frieght, my whole business, and cash on me at all time and any one who knows the business knows that there is a good chance , if they think they can over power me, that I will not have a weapon. I've been good but I have had some hair raising experiences where a gun would have let me ignore someone knowing that I could protect my vehicle if need be.
Shotgun, rifle, TASER, ... just not a handgun.
>"I don't get when this rabid anti gun and projection as if there is something wrong with wanting a gun comes from but it wasn't there before the election and now it seems as if that was one of the goals."
Nope, just the opposite. Gun sales and ammo sales have gone thru the roof.
that's great except that i don't drive a truck around indiana. I go all 48 states and the laws are different in every state. A concealed weapon permit is pretty silly for a shotgun or rifle.
I don't understand what you are saying just the opposite about.
What I am saying is the portrayal of gun owners and legislating it as "insane" and a "fetish" is kinda rabid and projecting thoughts you might have about gun owners that is not true.
I think that if the left wants to lose gains in western states, rural districts and with working people just go on with this kinda fear driven rhetoric. I had a long back and forth with my girl friend about this today and in the end it is about fear.
I like the idea of people thinking before they jump some random stranger cause they don't know if they are carrying a firearm. I mean I bet that Mathew Shepard wished he had a gun. Or the poor guy that got dragged behind the pickup in Texas. In the end rights and property come from the willingness and ability to defend them.
I think the legislation should be concentrating on safety of firearms so that accidents are minimized. That includes the design of the firearms. I also think that armor peircing ammo should not be available as well as automatic weapons. Both of these things are separate from concealed weapons by registered owners with established federaly regulated permits.
A few misconceptions need to be dispelled...
"I think the legislation should be concentrating on safety of firearms so that accidents are minimized."
Accidents are already rare when put up against the number of firearms in circulation, and are almost always due to negligence on the part of the user (and I include negligent parents who don't properly store their firearms).
"That includes the design of the firearms. I also think that armor peircing ammo should not be available as well"
True armor piercing ammunition is heavily regulated and available only to law enforcement and the military. Low level body armor can be defeated by most rifle rounds, but that's not what we're talking about. That sort of armor is worn to guard against handguns.
"as automatic weapons."
Automatic weapons, assuming you mean machine guns (the gun keeps shooting on a single pull of the trigger) are again very tightly controlled, registered, and carefully tracked. You must possess a special license to own and sell them and their purchase requires an extensive process. This assumes that you can afford it (piece of junk legal machine guns can go for $10,000, good ones for $20-30,000 and up). Legal automatic weapons are a non-factor in crime. The notion that illegal machine guns are frequently used in crime is a myth. Semi-automatic versions of these weapons comprise a tiny percentage of the guns used in crime, fully automatic versions even less.
I believe that the belief that drivers are "crazy" and that they have the potential to have a gun illegally keeps it safer than it would otherwise be. The fact is is that many drivers do have guns but it sucks to risk you business that way. I really don't understand it considering we are checked into, have backround checks, are on a federal list, and have drug test as well as record of where we are but still I guess I am just some weirdo for wanting a gun right?
Anyway, I love this site and agree politically on so much here but when you guys start talking about guns you get all strange.
"...so overriding state laws trying to prevent criminals from enjoying the right to concealed carry seemed like a good idea."
This amendment had legitimate points for and against it. You hinted at the state's rights issue and there's the problem of differing standards.
But seriously, did you really mean what I bolded above? Do you actually think that criminals all over the country, from lowly muggers to brilliant serial killers were glued to C-Span?
"Curses, the Thune Amendment didn't pass, now I can't go on that three state killing spree I had planned. Damn you Mayors Against Illegal Guns! I'll have my revenge!" People who shoot other people don't generally care whether they have proper paperwork.
Most people with CCW permits can already carry in much of the country. I have an Ohio permit which gives me the ability to carry in 20 states; next week I'll get my Pennsylvania permit (in-laws live there) which will up the number to 26. Other non-resident permits cover even more states.
Whatever flaws the Thune Amendment had, it would not have caused otherwise law abiding CCW holders to flip their lids once they crossed state lines. The CCW war has already been fought and we won. CCW is now the law in 41 states and we aren't faced with daily massacres or wild west shootouts.
This is an issue that progressives could use to beat down Republicans and also has the benefit of putting us on the right side of the issue. Hopefully we're trending in that direction.
I told somebody that I thought the "close vote" on concealed weapons was a mirage, that a lot of the Yes votes were by people who saw that it was safe to cover their asses for the NRA.
Glad I was right, but I wish more critters would stand up to the NRA.
should be to put as many Blue dogs out of jobs as possible.
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