'Concerned father' on Fox: Obama's health-care reforms 'sentencing our families to death'
You had to figure that the moment you saw that "concerned father" harassing John Dingell at the town-hall meeting on health care in Michigan, he'd be showing up eventually on Fox News. After all, it's what they do.
Sure enough, he was on Fox's America's Newsroom this morning with Megyn Kelly. He was a bit nervous, but he managed to still say some extraordinarily incendiary things -- not to mention reveal that he's a "deather":
Sola: The harm that is being done is being done by this administration and the Congress. They want to foist on us a health-care plan that they themselves will not take. I challenge Barack Obama, members of Congress -- of both parties -- if you believe so much in this plan, then you use it on your family before you put it on our families. What you are doing is sentencing our families to death.
We lose the right to life. Old people are discarded. Those who cannot fend for themselves are discarded. There is no liberty under your plan. And that's the problem -- the people have seen it, the people know it, you can't hide it from the American people anymore.
If I'm a thug, fine. Don't call my son a thug, and don't call those old ladies and old men that are senior citizens like I am, thugs, and a mob. We are not. We are American citizens who want one thing: To be heard before you put us down.
If you want a good example of why we are where we are on this health-care debate, this one is prime: It shows just how deeply a segment of the American population is willing to believe things that simply are not true, provably so.
These are people who believe it's objectively true that the Obama administration's health-care reforms will lead to a mass killing of the elderly and denial of treatment for Obama's opponents. If you want to know why teabaggers are so worked up, this is why: They really believe this stuff.
This kind of alienation from fact-based reality was a significant component of the dynamic behind the "Patriot"/militia movement of the 1990s. It's embodied by the selective "skepticism" of such folks: Anything the runs counter to their belief system is dismissed as "the official story" which is only believed by "gullible" folks (and indeed is more evidence of the ongoing conspiracy), while any kind of outrageous nonsense that supports their belief system is seized up on as "secret truth".
It was a decidedly unhealthy trait when manifested among a relatively small group of people like the Patriots, because these beliefs formed the foundation for a broad range of radical extremism, including violence and armed standoffs with federal authorities.
The prospects of it now becoming a common pathology among the general conservative-movement population -- thanks to its open support from folks like Sarah Palin, Glenn Beck and Newt Gingrich (not to mention Fox News) -- are very disturbing indeed.
First Joe the Plumber now they'll beat to death Joe the concerned father.
is intended to be a factual statement
to be front row in Babylon when the firework display starts going off.
to death." - sounds like they aren't capable of getting out of the way - that they expect to passively let 'them people' do bad things to them.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_pValNTeDY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ks6qeEvtvDU
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I just hope these people remember how wrong they were the next time they exercise their right to free speech on another issue.
That isn't free speech, it's enticing hatred.
Free speech comes with responsibilities; enticing hatred is just that.
Can you please provide evidence that this gentleman was incorrect? The article also mentions that this person believed things that are provably not true. But they didn't provide the proof. Can someone please show us that this is incorrect instead of just saying that it's incorrect? Thank you.
Perhaps you might take on the task of proving that he is correct.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I'm not making public comments that he is correct or incorrect. But both the article and this poster have made such claims. I would just like to see the foundation behind those claims is all.
You are indeed, and the onus of proof lies with his claims, as they came first. Not mine.
I am indeed what? Not sure what you're trying to say there.
The onus of proof lies with any claim, period. I can agree that this man should prove that his claims are valid, but so should the author and so should the poster I was replying to.
And just for clarification, I was replying to CFAmick's comment, not yours. You didn't make any claims that this man is incorrect, so I'm confused about your defensiveness.
I miss-read the threading.
My only point was the guy in the clip needs to cite chapter and verse to back up his claims, which obviously he can't.
Welcome, can you please mention on what grounds this gentleman stands to accuse that the new health care plan is condemning his son and citizens to death? I think it's fair. Also let me point out to you that in our democracy, when prosecutors accuse someone of a crime, it falls upon then to provide proof or culpability, not the accused to provide proof of innocence. So, because I believe you must be someone who has respect for our laws and traditions, I'm politely asking you this. Where in this health care bill does it say that we are condemning people to death?
Yet then request proof of the absence of any fact concerning the lack of foundation. This is a form of argumentum ad ignorantiam, which requires that we accept something as true only because it has not or cannot be proven false.
For example, I say Zeus exists and rains lighnting down on the plains of Oklahoma every spring. You say that's untrue. I say prove it. You scratch your head because you can't, but I suspect anyone sane would agree that Zeus isn't dictating weather events over the American Midwest.
before the people are subjected to them. But he doesn't realize that our govt have public option health care. They are already being subjected to the govt health care plan. If the Republican are so dead set against it, why are they not giving up their benefit of govt health care?
There is a silly list of talking points spreading around right-wing blogs which refers to pages in HR 3200. Here they are:
http://urbangrounds.com/2009/07/23/house-heal...
They originated from the Twitter blog of a guy named Peter Fleckenstein, who has no legal training, read things without understanding them, and made up this list, which says more about his level of sanity and reading comprehension than anything else. But still, you see nutcases quoting these points, verbatim, all over the place.
But you can download the actual bill from the House Ways and Means Committee website here, and compare and read the exact pages for yourself. You'll see that 90% of the talking points are false, and the other 10% are either distortions or misunderstandings.
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/MoreInfo.asp?se...
The ridiculous idea that HR 3200 includes "death with dignity" and euthanasia or rationing of healthcare comes mostly from Section 1233 starting around page 425. This section provides funding for an advanced planning consultation between Medicare beneficiaries and their doctors at least once a year so that doctors can provide them with a list of legal resources, state information clearing houses, and information about making a living will. A living will, also known as END OF LIFE "ORDERS" is a document made up by THE PATIENT (NOT THE GOVERNMENT) to say what treatments they want IF they are incapacitated and unable to speak for themselves. EVERYBODY should have one of those, not just the elderly.
Previously, Medicare didn't provide funding for any consultation sessions between beneficiaries and their doctors. This bill provides funding for that. But leave it to the right wing noise machine to turn that into a claim about genocide and euthanasia.
But you don't have to take my word for it. Both FactCheck(dot)org and PolitiFact(dot)org have debunked the euthanasia and healthcare rationing nonsense:
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/false-euthan...
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/surgery-for-...
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/07/canadian-str...
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/
and not compelling me to explain why 2 + 2 does not = 17.
Heheh...well I just love watching that list of psychotic talking points making the round from blogsite to blogsite like a turd traveling from toilet to toilet in a building that's got a clog in the main sewer pipe. Until, eventually, it ends up in the toilet bowl of a bottom feeder like this. The classic "dead ender" from the deposed Republican regime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0NEWMB-IX4
Try common sense , reason and logic . Just try and guess who wants people to believe these outrageous lie , who are behind them , who wants to defeat healthcare reform and why . Hint : it's about profit and greed . Medicare is government program and for my elderly folks it's been great , my dad is 84 years old , we almost lost him to pneumonia in June but they gave it there all , spared no expense and saved him , none of us fear that the gov't will cut him off and pronounce his death sentence , it just ain't gonna happen , will never happen . For God's sake , think ! Just think . I feel sorry for this guy in the video , better to be oblivious than gullible and STUPID . The ones who want to defeat healthcare reform have no conscience and no ethical standards to deal with ... they are void inside except for their one virtue , greed .
I fuckin hate these morons...I really really do.
Absolutely NO idea what they're fuckin flappin their jaws about!
Oh they know...
What they really want to say is they don't want THEIR taxdollars paying ANOTHER'S medical bill, even if it's to their own advantage.
And you can't get any further another than n*****s and w******s.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
they're also saying that they don't want OTHER taxpayers to get government-run healthcare, just THEIR parents and grandparents.
When you think about it, the reality-disconnect is magnificent; they don't want the guvmint in teh healthcare, unless it's their parent's (government-run, taxpayer funded) medicare, in which case, it's "hands off you muslim socialist".
These idiots really are too stupid to even realize their own hypocrisy.
..there's a black man in the White House!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
I've seen a lot of comments on this website's discussion board that is either directly or indirectly accusing folks of racism. Can someone explain this to me, please? Is it just because there's a black man in the White House and most of the protesters that you see are white? Or is it something more than that? Thank you.
...President blood sipper was spending our National treasure, killing countless innocent, harmless and unarmed men, women and children, committing crimes worldwide, and sending brave young Americans to die, and breaking a Country(Iraq) for lies? You people are total Goddamned hypocrites for crawling out of the woodwork now while lying down these many wretched years.
For not standing up to Bush I say mother fuck you for your bizarre and inconsistent view of the last few years.
[rush listener] shhhhh....
me-oww!
Bush/Cheney 2000, Bush/Cheney 2004, McCain/Palin 2008.....hence my lack of respect for their credibility to know what's good or not for this country.
I swear I believe a lot of these people but maybe not all are just fu*king afraid that this black man who is the president is going to pay them back for the days of slavery and they are scared to death. Does this guy know that poor sick people are being dumped out of hospitals on to the streets in some cities today? Does he know that with a new approach to health care these people could be helped. Does he know that children and old people starve to death every day in this country. Instead of it being all about him, how about it's all about everyone.
I don't know if they really believe the new health care plan will take their lives but if they hear it long enough, they may really believe it.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
they got theirs...so fuck everyone one else!
...my in-laws were in town this weekend and insisted on watching FOX News. They are good, decent, smart people, but the crap they watched was unbelievably twisted! I was dumbfounded, but they are convinced that we are headed toward another "civil war" because "so many people are so fired up" about Obama's health care plan. I didn't have the heart to tell them that 71% of Americans want health care reform.
I am in the same boat, my in-laws have been thoroughly f*cked by the current system. Yet, they would be the first ones in line with them pitchforks and torches to defend the current system, if any of the commie liberal bastards was to "touch it."
There are many adjectives that can be used to describe people like that, but "smart" is not one of them. ;-)
Think Nazi era Germany and:
http://www.cba.uri.edu/Faculty/dellabitta/mr4...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Ah yes, which is exactly the same defence the US employed torture squads give ........obedience
..that about right?
I only have a sister-in-law to deal with. She, the conservative who is whining right now because she lost her job in the pharmaceutical industry and the health care she got from it and Obama's plan is the problem, yeah right!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
I thought such absurdities only existed in my twisted mind. You really have such a sister-in-law...! Hah. Enjoy her sufferings, she deserves them.
If they're over 50, and certainly over 60, it's the one age group where Fox dominates. The very people who are afraid of change, who think there's some "golden age" which we've gotten away from (culturally), and yes, see Sotomayor and Obama as evidence that the basic American (white) value system is in peril.
And they're notoriously MISINFORMED about nearly everything.
But if they're family...and you want them to return, best avoid the whole topic. Or else tell them you don't agree and demand a politics-free zone.
The sixties generation are now in their 60's. Not too many fools there. But we all have our fools to bear. In my experience only, it seems to be those folks in their 70's and above are who getting confused the most often. Those in their 50's are still thinking that none of this will ever affect them, so just leave everything as it is. Younger people are a mix of idealistic thinking people and those who do not participate at all. I am completely speaking in generalities.
You guys gave us Reagan (twice), Bush's (three times), Wall St. greed, ignored the environment and degraded our education system to the point it's barely functioning anymore. Your generation tarred war protesters forever by being awful to returning vets of Vietnam and burning US flags...
Your generation did fight for a lot of great things like Civil Rights, Women's Rights, sexual, social and cultural liberation - You gave us great music, good films... But then you grew up and turned America into the conservative society it is today.
Your generation should be proud of it's youth and sad of it's past 40+ years.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
That kind of presumptuous reasoning does not advance the argument. I did not give you any Reagans, Bushies, or pollution. The 60's generation were the first to bring the environmental issue into the public's attention. I did not degrade the educational system, and that generation were the war protesters. They stopped a war. Wall Street greed is well over a hundred years old. Research some before you shoot off your mouth. I guess you have earned your online name.
It took the US people a good 4-5 years to protest Nam, the current lot were on it day 1.
They are now selling the whole notion that the whole VietNam war came to an end, because a bunch of nice kids saw the evening news and decided they rather burn their draft cards, than get blow up half way across the world. Were in reality, tax/fiscal pressure was basically the main limiter to the American involvement in the VietNam war.
To be honest, the current wars won't end because some potheads were doing some mass interpretative dance one nice sunday afternoon. Iraq and Afghanistan will be over as soon as the US realizes we're about fresh out of more money to pay for them.
I assumed you were of the generation since you were defending it. My fault.
As for education, it was great in the '60's. HOw's it doing now?
The war protest? It ended in the mid-70's. The 60's youth helped bring awareness but didn't end it. It ended because it was unwinnable and the public at large got tired of it. Just as the current anti-war crowd spurred awareness but the war hasn't ended.
Wall St. greed is as old as Wall St. You're right. But it was heavily regulated and tempered until the '80's when the 60's generation took over management positions and fought for deregulization and we got the Savings & loan, a bunch of bubbles, trickle down econ, and much more.
You may not have done it personally, especially since you're not of that generation. But the 60's generation did vote in the '80's, '90's and '00's. And we've had 20 years of Bush & Reagan since the 60's generation has been here.
So, back to the original point. The 60's generation has plenty of fools.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
this country for the past almost 50 years now. About time one of you caught us. First of all, I wasn't talking to you. Secondly, again you assume you know how old I am. Thirdly, I said, "I am completely speaking in generalities."
Are you saying that those who came after the 60's generation are not responsible for any of this? BTW: Those belonging to the 60"s generation were born in the late 40"s and early 50's. If you had a leg to stand on, you wouldn't have to resort to a whole sentence, accusatory at that, in bold face type.
anyone else here, but I have NEVER voted for a
Republican for any office, EVER. Check yourself and soon.
I'm not alone. I have nothing to apologize to anyone for
anything that I've done.
Though what the masses haven't done, that they have stood by and thought "Well as long as I'm OK" .........
I was referring to the idea that the 60's generation doesn't have many fools. You may not be a fool, but it's laughable that the 60's didn't produce a bunch of 'em.
I've never voted for a republican either. I also don't claim there aren't plenty of fools from my generation who vote against their interests. That said, I didn't vote for Obama either because I had a fear he was a center-right wuss who'd continue selling off our nation to the corporate interests. I voted for Cynthia McKinney - and to those that might think it was a wasted vote - it was no less wasteful than protesting the way in Iraq. It may not have worked, there was really never much hope it would, but it's still the right thing to do.
Now, us liberals get to be blamed for the failings of a Democratically lead government that is incapable of doing anything. What's Obama accomplished? Closing Gitmo? (nope) Saving the economy? (Actually, as we used to like to point out, Bush was pres when the first bailout was passed and the stimulus has barely started - and Obama's barely done anything to actually re-regulate or fix the real problems). Ended the war in Iraq? (Actually, he's increased contractors) End the war in Afghanistan? (Increasing it). Gay rights? (Ummm, nope). He's impoved our image abroad for the time being. That's his biggest accomplishment. So, he's a great mascot, not president yet. And there's no sign he'll get any better anytime soon.
I can't say my generation isn't just as foolish as the 60's generation.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
.
I never though I'd see the day I'd say this:
but we may need some kind of civil unrest to put these wingnuts in their place.
I say this not as a partisan but as someone who is becoming increasingly convinced that they are real danger to our democracy.
All live in the south and still can't take the fact that they lost the Civil War and there's no one a black man can be president.
is intended to be a factual statement
Some in the south yes, but the dangerous ones aren't those mad at Obama's race. It is the ones that think they must die in the streets as part of a religious obligation to defend the Christian Constitution and prevent the further hedonistic decay. Obama being black isn't what is on radar. Obama being the final manifestation of a communist/socialist/nazi plot that started after the US won the cold war and is an existential threat to the country (as they perceive it to be).
Go read more right wing sites. It is getting interesting over there. Or as my kids said after they read the comment thread I posted in comments yesterday, "Don't they know they are advocating terrorism?"
They act like Nazis and think they are fighting against Nazism. Sheesh!
I don't think that saying that 71% of the people want healthcare reform is the same as saying that 71% of the people want Obama's healthcare reform.
in congress. Say it with me: Congress. Say this, too: It is not the final bill. It is a series of proposals. Proposals. Catch up.
... heck, there is not even a draft.
It's amusing how easy it is to dupe Republicans, isn't it? They're all so fucking stupid, driven insane by their Christianic occultism to the point where every criminal corporate fascist with an agenda can make these rightarded loons believe anything no matter how fucking insane.
[Deleted. C&L will limit the commenter as "chatterer," loosely defined as one who:
Posts numerous times a day with the intent of dominating, re-directing or hijacking the thread; or
repeatedly makes the same point with the effect of annoying other commenters-Sitemonitor]
which has yet to happen.
Yet, somehow FOX can't find any of the 40+ f*cking million people who are without health insurance right NOW.
FOX is funny that way... for a supposedly "news" organization, they sure have trouble with reporting reality.
wasn't there a problem a while back finding homeless vets living under bridges?
Know Your Audience !!!
You gotta feel for Dan Tubagoo.
PEACE
Not only does Dan need a new job, he needs to find himself a comb and a dentist. Yikes!
Thanks for giving me a big laugh, AP!
Sola: The harm that is being done is being done by this administration and the Congress. They want to foist on us a health-care plan that they themselves will not take.
________________________________________________________
They're already denying us the Socialist healthcare at tax payers expense they enjoy.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
When I see people like this guy who are so ignorant of the facts, I actually wish there was a death panel for stupid people. They don't want to hear the facts so why waste your breath. Go home you moron and make sure that your momma and grandmomma get their government sponsored Medicare, Medicaid and their Social Security checks! Them come back and tell me again how you don't want the government messing with your benefits! DEATH TO ALL MORONS!
both he and his son are currently on Medicare. He, because he is old, and his son because he is disabled. They just don't want the rest of us to have it. Selfish, ignorant bastards. And please, where in any of the plans currently being considered is there language saying that disabled people will be denied health care. Just plain stupid, stupid, stupid. Pawns of the insurance industry and the power elite.
The "red menace." Isn't it funny that they are mostly all from "red states?" Why aren't they complaining about the fact that corporate America imports all that cheap toxic crap from China, and that both Iraq and Afghanistan are funded by money we borrow from the Chinese commies?
..just give up his Medicaire and Social Security when he retires. I'm sure the Republicans will take good care of him, snark!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
at the forum.
The whole thing is political theater.
There is no reason this man couldn't have calmly sat down with his son, raised his hand and asked, "If any of the bills that the House and/or Senate are now considering passes, will there be a provision in any of those bills that will force the death of my invalid son? Etc.
And the Congressman could have answered. No fireworks! No cameras flashing! No drama!
Which is why I question all of the drama happening at these forums. Where you have a "performance" there is always a "director" (and an "executive producer" footing the bill).
There are so many red flags being thrown right now. This is the staged Florida re-count thugs from 2000 who were flown in from D.C. to make trouble....only now in spades.
Damn! The corporations are really DESPERATE to drive a stake through the heart of any serious health care reform (translation: a loss of corporate profits).
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
was "hurt" at the town meeting?
the invalid son probably represents a revenue stream for this witless wonder. He may be getting money for providing care for his own son.
Seems to me you would have to be a true idiot or insane to believe the government is going to kill old people in this country in order to save money. How weak must one's mind be to fear such a thing. Seems to me they could all benefit from some govt. run mental health services.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
We can only hope. Republicanism is an illness.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
Well, let's find a cure for it before they all go nuts.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
..probably deny the claim and the services.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
To be cynical the insurance company has to keep stockholders happy by profitability, which comes from denying claims
The government has a bottomless pit due to the power of taxation.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... for certain naturan monopolies, and health care is one of them. Pure market approaches make absolutelly no sense.
The idea behind free market, in the current system, is that servicing interest of the shareholders provides an ideal organization to service customer's needs. Since the more money you can make off the market place, makes the share holders happy. And usually a sucessful corporation it is so because it services the needs of the customers, which reward the corporation with more business.
However, this model breaks down when it comes to things like health insurance. In a natural monopoly, customers can't go anywhere else... ergo there is absolutelly no incentive for the corporation to provide better service, since they don't really have to compete for your business (if you get sick in an emergency, you don't go around shopping for what is the best ambulancy service for example). Ergo, the interests of the shareholders, interfere directly with the service provide to the customers. In order to generate a profit, insurance dictates that they have to take in more money in policies than they dish out in claims. Which is the basic fallacy of this whole system: We're requiring corporations to operate for-profit, where the clear path for profit is to deny care. In other words, we are literally paying for the "privilege" of being told "no."
Transforming these insurance companies into non-profit entities, removes the obiligations towards shareholders. Ergo the conflict of interests is removed. Under a public corporation organization, the government can reward with more revenue those corporations which provide a good return in care: the kicker is that these corporations still get to make plenty of money, and provide the required care. They simply do not generate the same obscene profits for shareholders. But if these shareholders want that money, they should earn it the old fashion way: by earning it with their own god damned work.
I am flabbergasted that the US thinks it is reasonable to hold hundreds of millions of citizens ransom to the entitlement to profit of a few people (the amount of large shareholders of these health care providers may be in the tens of thousands at most, if you work out the fraction of the population they represent you need a few decimal places to find them. Utterly insane).
One could also mention that insurance companies have been merging to create super insurance companies, dampening competition, and creating the framework for another industry "too big to fail."
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
insurers, it still does not change their status as a natural monopoly.
In the end you can live without having to buy that 42 inch color teevee. You do not have the option of not going to the hospital when your ticker stops.
There are certain business/fields for which profit oriented corporations make the most sense. Healthcare just happens to not be one of them. I think these right wing morons are the typical idiots who only know how to use a hammer, and every single problem looks like a nail to them.
Of note, is that in every other industrialized society, where the debate came to wether or not allowing the health care system to be a for profit business proposition, the notion was quickly dismissed because the conflict of interest between profit and providing health care was just too patent to ignore. The fact that Americans allowed this monstrosity of a health care system to exist for decades points at how supinely short sighted (and dumb) we are as a society.
I don't think you mean natural monopoly.
That's generally an inventor and his decendents cashing in on his invention.
What you're talking about is inflexible versus flexible quanity demand, and insurance is becoming an inflexible qd.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I double-checked my info, and although I was right in my definition of natural monopoly, one can eventually achieve it, simply by becoming larger and absorbing the smaller companies, or setting the rules they have to follow.
Insurance hasn't reached that level yet where you have a single supplier of all policies, but with all the mergers that's what they're attempting.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Monopolies are defined not just by their supply patterns, but also by their demand characteristics. In this case Healthcare is a natural monopoly by definition, not because it is provided by healthcare insurers in this country, but because its demand is mandatory.
That's why it's an inflexible demand, but as of right now there is no monopoly in the paying of it.
Now of course if you want to refer to the paradigm of allopathy v homeopathy, or AMA control of the whole industry.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I didn't read your last comment in full, and while slurping on some spaghetti sauce out of the jar, I realized that the payment of medical care makes insurance in effect a monopoly, particularly since many doctors won't see you without some form of insurance.
In the meantime, however, there are different insurance providers. But at the same time there's an industry that tells them the parameters of how they should operate, although SOP is allowed to vary from state-to-state.
So any solution being offered keeping the individual states as players in the matter would make nonsense of having reforms in the first place. This is particularly so since insurance companies can often out-spend the states in getting their way.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... healthcare is a monopoly for the simple fact that you can't live without your health. It is not such a hard concept to grasp that people simply do not have the choice wether or not they want "health."
That is the one thing I always found utterly disgusting about this society: the fact that as a whole, we decided that it was perfectly reasonable to subject healthcare, something we have no choice on wanting or not, to the forces of the market.
That is why mandatory elements in the economy tend to be run under public incorporation, due to the simple fact that those segments of the economy run into a conflict of interest when subjected to free market forces. When you don't have a choice on wether or not you can prescind of a good, there is absolutely no incentive by the controller of the supply to cater to the needs of the demand when all they have to do is meet shareholders' interests. In other words, under a free market... there is absolutely no reason for HMOs to compete on quality/price of healthcare, whereas they have to still meet shareholders demand for profit. So that is why we end up in the current situation, under a free market perspective it makes perfect sense for HMOs to take our money, to generate profits for the shareholders, and the only way for them to increase profits is to give us less bung for our buck in return.
You're still talking inflexible quantity/demand.
Because technically, although we all want good healthcare, that's too broad a term since that would include good nutritious food, exercise and sunlight as well, and even our own first aid kit.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Joe the Father is not your friend.
FOX TV is not your friend.
Murdoch is despicable.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
That great big evil bastard.
Good thing there are no conspiracy theorists around here! ;)
Selective skepticism is the perfect description of these nuts.
No - STUPIDITY is the perfect description of these nuts.
teabagger...birther....deather......oh yeah idiot.
People talk about the "war of cultures", generally referring to western values vs. conservative Islam. I think we've got a different culture war, and it's right here in the United States.
On one side, we have the religious right, the neoconservatives, the zealots, and those who deny reality. These groups overlap to some degree.
On the other side, we have the religious moderates, atheists, the political left (some of it, anyway), most of the scientists, the long-term thinkers and those who at least try to keep themselves informed of events in the real world.
The left side is more soft-spoken, reluctant to use violence and persists in trying to mount logical arguments against the other side.
The right side is loud, ignores logic, embraces delusion, and is quick to advocate violence when (or even before) its arguments fail. It discourages its members from learning anything for themselves, but instead spoon-feeds them their authoritarian agenda, from the cradle to the grave. It appeals to the basest human emotions and consistently shouts down all opposition.
How do we defeat an opponent like that?
without adopting at least some of their methods. The soft spoken, pacifist, logical approach is definitely NOT going to do the trick. And I agree, our country is being ripped apart in a tremendous culture war, one that really doesn't bode well for our future.
Including YouTube and NPR.
People who are intelligent understand this.
As long as the main stream media and the Congress/President in the U.S. are corporately controlled, we have no hope of ever succeeding. We can't even get the message out to the American People that Single-Payer Heath Care would be THE most cost effective way to cover EVERYONE. That is not allowed and it was proven when ABC shut out ALL mention of Single-Payer in their Town Hall Forum.
I keep trying (I know, I know...I'm very trying), in spite of it all...I just hate to give up.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Don't ever give up.
If there were only some way to show them how they are being used for purposes that will go against them rather then help them. If you could show this man people who have fallen through the health care cracks due to the expense of insurance and medical care, maybe just maybe it might cause him to rethink his position. Actually I doubt this would help because this man appears to have little experience coming to his own conclusions by thinking for himself.
If they weren't being so harmful to so many right now, I might have some sympathy for them. I'm betting the majority of these same people believe the invasion of Iraq was a good thing to do because the terrorist in Iraq had WMD. It just seems like the same mentality.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
watching of the propaganda?
...Is culture with a capital "cull"...
.
Seeing as most of the people opposed to health care reform also thought the Iraq War was such a humdinger of an idea, they may take a moment to consider maybe their first impressions aren't as sure-fire as they'd believe them to be.
Critical thinking, introspection and analysis don't seem to be prevalent in folks like this.
As the good folks of Texas have said to me on more than one occasion: "Yer one a' them people that's in yer head a lot ain't y'?"
Thinking is what us Yankees do.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
BREATHTAKING STUPIDITY...
....... and where is this again, oh yes .......
Lack of oxygen will do that.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
is now a respected, neutral and unbiased publication? This is what this nutcase bases his charge? So you go charging into this townhall meeting and shout out your inane comments and call this freedom of speech. We're fucked.
...you pretty much have summed it all up.
The same people who have no trouble believing in Obama's death panels also have no trouble believing that Jonah lived in a big fish for three days, that the Earth is 6,000 years old, that a donkey spoke, and that a snake is the originator of all our problems today.
When your entire life is based on believing crazy stuff that cannot possibly be true, why would it be difficult to believe some more?
When all the people who believe as you do are repeating this same story insistently, why wouldn't you believe it?
Add to that the general hatred of Obama, liberals, democrats, blacks, and poor people that so many of the GOP'ers possess, and sure, Obama is killing Grandma, eating babies, and tossing entire families into pits of fire.
are the ones already inside the gates. They are camouflaged as solid citizens enjoying the fruits of materialism under the thin veneer of civilization. They are the people that go batshit crazy when the conveniences stop working.
"They are camouflaged as solid citizens enjoying the fruits of materialism under the thin veneer of civilization."
"They are the people that go batshit crazy when the conveniences stop working."
I'm against revoking the first amendment...but sweet zombie Darwin don't self-proclaimed news channels have a responsibility to the truth? Can we pass a law requiring a scrolling fact check ticker on every major news outlet?
Media tell the truth? That ended during the Reagan era.
Page 453. The Death Panel.
The Health Care Reform Bill shall include a Death Panel of Liberal bureaucrats who will weed out the elderly, the infirm and terminally ill and make them eat shitty hospital gruel until they die from it. The Death Panel will decide who gets gruel and who gets instant oatmeal, only to give the impression that those who will die from shitty hospital food have a choice.
Ha! They thought they could slip it by after page 452 and no one would notice!
This shrew on "Faux News" is quoting from an article written by Betsy McCaughey, from the rag "NY Post"...and she is envolved with the "Hudson Institute"...whose major contibutors are:
Eli Lilly and Company, Monsanto Company, DuPont, Dow-Elanco, Sandoz, Ciba-Geigy, ConAgra, Cargill, and Procter & Gamble.
A real "American" with "Family Values".
Betsy, thank you for your contributions towards ignorance directed at ignorant people funded by corporate "thugs".
Governor Patacki dropped her as Lt. Gov. after she caused him so much trouble. A real "hot potato" here in NY.
I don't see it, in the bill? What part sez people with disabilitys loose medicare?
I saw a weird part about employees having to pay income tax on health care the employer is forced to provide. All I understand.
A tea party with a Liberal twist.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoreBU2FkY4&fe...
Wonder how many of them tea baggers gonna show up? August 29th
...that our stalwart Democratic Party is letting this go largely unanswered.
Not the "death panel" talking points themselves, which they numbly refute when given a chance to speak over the din of "OBAMA IS GONNA KILL MY GRAMMA!"
But rather, we're getting pretty much NO rebuttal in the form of showing the people who have been denied coverage, left to die, by their insurance companies. You see coverage of that on Frontline and other venues that are just oh, so likely to attract the teabaggers' target audience, but not much on the MSM.
Because that's the Democrats' job. As the alleged left wing of the Power Party, their job is to meekly allow the bullies on the right wing to own the conversation even if they're whittled down to a nub.
That's why we get hour after hour of "serious" analysis and debate on health care that has about the same signal-to-noise ratio as a JFK conspiracy program.
"Will Obama's health care plan force parents to euthanize their sick children? We'll hear from the experts. From the left: Senator Milford McMumbles. From the right, Sgt. Major Hefty Spewagon."
The Democrats have one job here: make sure that health care gets far enough that everyone is convinced we took the problem seriously, and then fails for what everyone will believe are "prudent" reasons.
They are bought and paid for along with their Rethug comrades. The agenda is to discredit the entire notion of reforming health care so the insurance companies can gouge us for the next twenty years and shout "socialst death panel!" every time we think to complain.
We're being played. They are not on our side.
So, I'm going with no public option, no support for ANY Democrat, EVER again. Period.
Fool me once, can't get fooled again.
is the democratic response cannot get out there if the media won't let it. Maybe they don't speak loud enough but if the media stifles their points it doesn't matter how loud they yell.
Then go BUY some goddamn MEDIA! Do I have to think of everything?
Blaming the media for a failure to lead is pathetic. If the Democrats are incapable of getting their message out, then they're weak and useless and supporting them is a waste of time.
Everyone wants to believe "the media" is conspiring against them. But I haven't seen many Democratic leaders organizing and running rallies in favor of public health care. They sit back and meekly wait for something to respond to.
If you can't handle Katie Couric, you can't handle the insurance companies.
Agreed. I also don't see a whole lot of Democrats buying TV and radio outlets a la Rupert Murdoch. WUWT.
Let's see how far to the right they go before they fall off of the edge of this flat world.
It's what they'd do if the situation were reversed.
They take the dumbest, most contrarian opinion they can find and then legitimize it as "news."
What happened to the birther controversy? Was that not dumb enough?
oily tits looked too much like a boozy aging b-girl.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I think the birther thing may be jumping the shark.
It doesn't help much when their chief spokesbot (what's her name? Oily Taters?) goes on the air and then off the rails, not once but multiple times.
The "permanent Republican majority" crowd saw the birthers as useful idiots and now useless idiots, so they got Coulter and Rove ahead of the ball a bit to shut it down.
They may be stupid, but they're not that stupid.
But I like oily taters
Finest kind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPkfjK5M-TY
As Al Bundy said, "When the bag's a'drippin, that's good eatin'."
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
But I think the comments at Crooksandliars are FAR more entertaining/informative than ANYTHING we could possibly be watching on the teevee right now.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
the birther thing was seen as so stupid that it embarrassed the party so the extremist found something else to haul out. God knows what they'll come up with when this is finally debunked.
Someone on Morning Joe this morning said if the president has to come out and say there will be no death panels then he's already lost the argument. Well, if he didn't deny it wouldn't they say he didn't because it's true.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
you can't trust anything an illegal alien/Ivy League elitist says anyway! Because he uses a teleprompter!
..stupid, f-ing people. The monumental stupidity is just about intolerable. And to be feeding it the paranoia and spreading it on a national television news show when THEY SHOULD BE DEBUNKING IT, to me, borders on the criminal! I mean, let's just say, the commentators actually believe this pshht; why don't they show the American people the chapter and verse of the "death panels" in the bill? Why, well..you know why..because ITS NOT THERE STUPID! NEVER WAS! NEVER WILL BE!
Oh for five minutes with these idiots to do nothing but scream at them for being STUPID! IDIOTS!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
it would be much easier for those commentators to point out the "chapter and verse" in the document proving their point, than for anyone to listen to 1000 pages of the actual document finding no reference to "death panels". They know this well. We should be demanding proof!
they've moved onto the next fake controversy.
Blah blah blah. . all day long we play defensive and point out how stupid and dishonest the Republicans and Fox are being. Meanwhile, they are 4 lies ahead of our debunking.
Can we please go on the offensive and start creating our own messaging and framing of this issue?
I think it would be more productive to see some videos and posts on C&L that are actually offering us tools to help in our own framing of the debate rather than complaining about the opposition.
Because that's not the agenda. The Democrats have no intention of passing health care. They're killing it, with our support.
But, hey, you know, if you want to see change, well "elect more Democrats."
After all, they only have supermajority control of the government. Can't do much with that, right?
It's from the NYC demonstration two weeks ago on Single-Payer Health Care:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqTzb-l9c3w
(***No one was injured during the filming of this video***).
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
The Death Panel will also implement and encourage "Nickel Abortion Tuesdays" at any Planned Parentedhood and provide Mentos/Diet Coke therapy to every child with autism.
I hurrd down at Bingo last night that Obama will be taking money from those who refer people for the death panels.
Got an uncle you really don't like who also has cancer? Are your mother and father in-law heavy smokers who have emphysema and/or lung cancer, and they won't leave your house after they're planned departure date?
Call 1-800-DEATHER and we'll take care of it
Within 20 minutes, heavily armed SEIU Thugs will be kicking in the door of the target, and shortly thereafter all your problems will be over with.
Cash or Money order only...
GOP politicians who decide to cater to the ever-more-crazy base (all of them?) will end up being unelectable in the general election. Those who try to maintain a modicum of sanity and adult-like behavior might very well find themselves disenfranchised by their own figureheads - the Limpballs, Brecks and insHannitys. In other words, welcome to the symptoms of a permanent repug minority.
...the Republicans are doing the job their constituents elected them to do (namely, disrupt any and all reform of anything.)
They campaign on the "fight socialism" platform, get elected and govern from that platform.
No, if we lose this thing, I won't blame the GOP. The Democrats have the numbers to do this without them, and they're not stepping up.
Instead, they're looking for a "bipartisan" solution with a bunch of thugs and terrorists.
"Bipartisan" here means that the Democrats are going to step halfway from where they are to where the thugs are. And then step again. And then step again. The thugs won't move.
And, in the end, we'll get a "health care reform" bill that's 99% of what the thugs want. And they'll go on the air and condemn the other 1% as being communism.
And the Democrats will pat themselves on the back and proudly proclaim the bright new day where we're all mandated to buy full-price private insurance.
You say "They campaign on the "fight socialism" platform, get elected and govern from that platform."
I ask, "since when?". This was the GOP platform in 2008 and it didn't work out so well. Their floundering hardly absolves the dems' spinelessness but I thought I would point out a silver lining in this fiasco.
I agree: they campaigned on it and lost. But they DID campaign on it and some of them DID get elected, so when they spew this nonsense, they're doing what their supporters (few though they thankfully are) elected them to do.
The Democrats, on the other hand, sold us a cock-and-bull story about how they were going to fight for our interests.
They seem to have no trouble coming up with the odd trillion for financial companies. Even over Republican objections. Piece o' cake to make sure that Goldman Sachs executives never have to fly coach. That agenda seemed to pass without a hitch.
But Medicare For All at 1/10th the cost of the bank bailouts? Whoa, Nelly! Wouldn't want to be too...hasty....or anything. Let's think about it for a while. And by "think about it" I mean "how can we strangle this thing in the crib?"
I can't help but notice that there was little if no debate on how to structure giving the financials a trillion bux or so. Oh, I'm sure they'll spend it wisely. No need for oversight.
But suddenly when it's health care, everyone is concerned with where the money is going to come from.
Why? Because the financial system counts and human health doesn't. Period. Financials are "too big to fail," humans are "shit out of luck."
That is the best comment I've read on this site concerning the Dems and healthcare.
Thank you for putting into words exactly what has been pissing me off so much yet I hadn't fully put the pieces together.
Hopefully humanity will one day learn to be humane.
negotiate with terrorists?
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
we're dumb as paste!!!
mmm mmmmm! but what a taste!!
... and it ain't Obama.
This country is dying of stupidity and ignorance.
I read Comments sections of news articles about protest mobs at town hall meetings, and all the right-wingers are saying "You're trying to stamp out free speech!" at the same time that they say "Obama wants to destroy America!" and "all you liberals are welfare queens who want my money to set up death boards!". So they're demanding the right to be heard, but they're so absolutely consumed with right-wing BS conspiracy stories that their opinions are worthless.
These are the same idiots who scream "TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!" about creationism, without knowing enough to know how worthless creationism is.
As an atheist who's spent most of his life having futile conversations with believers who are too invested in their self-serving fantasies to ever even allow themselves to think rationally, I can tell you that it is a hopeless task to even consider educating these idiots. They believe this stuff because it's designed to appeal to their baser instincts.
And the media, who are supposed to be a bulwark against such lies, instead do just that -- they "teach the controversy"! Because nobody running the corporations thinks that this country slowly turning into a third-world hellhole will ever affect them... at least, not before they have a chance to convert all their Dollars to Euros and move overseas...
.
Well, what is the republican plan? Tax cuts? I would like the chick to ask this man what he would like done about the thousands of people who are not covered by insurance. I'm almost positive the first words out of his mouth would be about the number of illegal people who are benefiting from medical care in our country. To him it's all about him. That's the difference in repubs and dems. We just aren't stingy and greedy enough.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
sell them, then relocate.
He is right about one thing, whatever the gov comes up with (which is still unknown), Congress and the Whitehouse won't use this system. So why is it not OK for OUR employees (Congress and the Whitehouse) yet OK for the general population?
[Edited to sentence case. Please do not post in ALL CAPS. Thank you-Sitemonitor]
fake assholes who hate democracy, liberty and the truth. They're headed for the bottom, and they're riding us all the way. (Thanks Soundgarden)
me-oww!
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