Exclusive: Gun show dealers caught on video selling to people who tell them they'd fail a background check
By David Neiwert Wednesday Oct 07, 2009 7:00am
Right-wingers have been having fun in recent weeks with the ACORN "gotcha" videos supposedly showing community organizers indulging in illicit behavior. But they're about to discover that the undercover video can be a two-edged sword.
Over the past year, New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg has been sending out private investigators to gun shows around the country, focusing on locales where NYPD and other local law enforcement are seeing guns arriving from. And what they showed was incredibly revealing.
It shows the dirty little secret that everyone who attends gun shows with any kind of discerning eye can tell you: There are a lot of illegitimate transactions taking place at them -- and particularly a lot of sales of guns to people who could never pass a background check.
John Rosenthal described in some detail last year just how big the "gun show loophole" is. Like, Mack-truck sized:
At approximately 5,000 gun shows each year in 32 states, criminals and terrorists are allowed to purchase firearms from private gun dealers without an ID or background check. Although many gun dealers are federally licensed and therefore legally required to contact the National Instant Criminal Background Check System to ensure that a prospective purchaser is not prohibited from possessing firearms, private sellers have no such requirement.
The report produced by the New York mayor's office investigation -- which, along with the videos, will be available for public view at 11 a.m. PDT today (we'll post them at C&L then) -- reveals that 63 percent of the gun vendors approached by the team were willing to sell to a person who told them they couldn't pass the background check.
Unlike the phony ACORN undercover operation -- which only offered for public view a single instance of actual miscreancy, and refused to report the several instances in which they were turned away -- this report is clear that some gun vendors adhered to the law.
But some 19 out of the 30 vendors approached sold to investigators who said they'd probably fail a check. Along the way, they bought semi-automatic handguns and assault rifles. All told, 39 of 51 attempts to buy a gun illegally were successful. Several vendors told their buyers that they probably wouldn't pass a check either.
Only 11 vendors said no.
There were exchanges like this caught on tape:
"I don't need your address."
"No background check?"
"Nothing. Just show me that you're from Ohio."
"That's good about the background check because I probably couldn’t pass one."
"I don't care. All's I got to do is demand you show me your license."
"You don’t care about the background check, right?"
"Nope. Nope. I wouldn't pass either, bud." [grin]
"Is that right?"
This is why some 30 percent of all illegal gun traffic in the United States emanates from gun shows. It's long past time to shut this travesty down.
We'll be back later this morning with video and more details.
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let me know.
Wait a minute . . .
My house when I'm not home!
:)
actually another planet looks like the only hope at this point.
..is that none of it has tried to contact us! - Calvin
confined and contained (by gravity) so we don't infect the rest of the universe with our dis-eases.
http://www.geocities.com/jinx_lunatic/Calvin-...
It's psychosomatic. You need a lobotomy. I'll get a saw. ~ Calvin
Have you ever seen the Snowmen?
Speaking of lobotomies and saws, remind me to show you my Halloween JibJab card...
Unfortunately, there is no place where you can get away from American stupidity. And that doesn't even count stupidity around the world without our encouragement.
we've been enabling these vicious idiots for decades - they are our problem, we need to clean this up.
Time to kick butt and take names - if we don't stop this now, when will we? How many more will die? What will be left of our country for our children?
The Right has been like a nasty abusive spouse, and we've been the quivering victim, falling for one sick lie, one crazy accusation after another.
ENOUGH.
They have shown who they are and what they are - time to call them on it and bring them down.
?
outside the US...
Canada or Europe are tops on my list.
WAY worse than ANYTHING ACORN could ever do?
when is FOX Noise going to report this?
Wait a minute, the law doesn't require a background check only that the person produce a drivers license. The buyer produced a drivers license so no law was broken. I can see that there is a problem here but the "so what?" factor is pretty high. This playing gotcha bs is just as low as what the right does. You can't win an arguement based on ideas so you resort to this crap. Shameful.
"All told, 39 of 51 attempts to buy a gun illegally were successful."
That's not playing gotcha, it's breaking the law.
It is a valid question. If the dealers are not required to do a background check at these flea-market type shows, what was illegal in the 12 of 51 attempts?
And by closing them down, does that mean stopping the illegal trade and requiring background checks and waiting periods for all purchases, or stopping all purchases?
The "loophole" is that you can have one set of rules for dealers (background checks required, waiting periods, etc.) and another set of rules for private parties. I doubt anyone plans/hopes to stop all gun sales.
I think the question of legality in this case is whether the vendors selling the guns held dealers' licenses or not but more details should be forthcoming.
..broken glass on your way to a Gun Safety class in order to buy a handgun or assault weapon in this country. Handguns and assault weapons have only one purpose: to k.i.l.l, period! A small yappy dog does a better job at home security than a gun does. Small yappy dogs don't usually get taken by curious little children and used to kill siblings and friends. But people seem to have this need to want to have instruments of death and our laws guarantee them the right to have the ability to kill their neighbor if they want to. There's not nearly enough scrutiny in gun sales and not nearly enough guarantees of protection from people that have guns in this country.
Sorry, I enjoy target and skeet shooting (not so much hunting) and I'll never stop anyone from doing it legally but its time for gun violence in this country be dealt with more verve!
That gets tricky doesn’t it? If I have a gun, can I sell it? Can I sell it to my neighbor in my home? Can sell it to my neighbor while we’re both at a flea-market? Can I rent a table at the flea-market and sell all my worthless crap along with my gun? Can I sell my entire gun collection and nothing else? Can I buy a gun at this flea market as well? If I can do all these things, how does this make me any different than a dealer?
I’m not advocating anything one way or the other here, just pointing out possible pitfalls in potential regulations. I don’t know what the solution is.I can sure hear the the uproar if private gun sales were banned though.
How about making guns like cars so we can keep track of which people have them so they don't fall into criminals hands.
Logistically, I think that's very possible with new gun sales. I would say mandatory for high-caliber and assault rifles especially.
The problem comes in when you have to start registering existing guns. "Just say no" will have a whole new meaning.
They tried to pass legislation to fire and "fingerprint" guns at manufacture. Sounds logical to me, but the NRA and activists shot it down. I mean don't they have to fire the guns for quality control anyways? Why not take the bulets and fingerprint them then?
Beany babies have birth cerfiicates why can't guns? :)
Too bad. Hardly anybody leaves their gun at the scene of a shooting-crime. Almost everybody leaves bullets.
I'd go for that in a heartbeat. Being able to legally purchase any of them that I can afford. Able to carry in all fifty states on a license that just about anyone can get. Heck some vehicles you don't even need a license to operate on the streets. No back ground checks. No waiting periods. Anyone can own one, including felons. Heck even people who lost their license for life can still own one, and operate it on private property, and as stated above some you don't even need a license so people who lost their license could possible even carry some lets say single shots and bolt actions, sounds comparable to mopeds or riding mowers to me.... You sure you want to make them like cars?
in action...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o35uvr1x6mQ
there was no law broken. If the People of the state of TN are comfortable with that type of law, well, it's their state. From the information provided, there is no indication that laws were broken. Maybe some questionable judgement, but no illegality.
I'm not a gun owner, but given that we are living in a nation that is steadily moving into the territory of being a police state, where constitutional rights are treated as if they were instead privileges, I'm not going to begrudge anybody the acquisition of a firearm(s), of whatever horsepower. It's a right, not a privilege. I know that there are going to be some nutcases and criminals, but they are the minority. The nutcases will always find a way and so will the criminals. But the majority of people buying and selling weapons are OK.
With freedom of speech we tolerate the peddlers of hate, with freedom of the press, we tolerate malevolent propaganda organizations like FOX. It's part of the price. I'm willing to tolerate this kind of trade and marketplace, as well as the nutcases, as one of the faces of the right to bear arms. In fact, it gives me a measure of comfort knowing that it is going on, because I like the idea of their being firearms out there that the government can't track.
To my thinking, gun shows aren't the travesty. The travesties are police forces that deploy military weapons against people who are exercising their right to assemble. A travesty is a "free speech zone", outside of which a citizen is arrested for exercising a Constitutional right. A travesty is requiring a permit that imposes conditions upon the right of people to exercise their right of free assembly. A travesty is a government that spies on all of the citizens. A travesty is government claiming the power and then exercising that power to arrest and indefinitely detain without charges or recourse to legal council. A travesty is a government that is openly and shamelessly unresponsive to the will of the people. There is a long list of travesties, and that list is growing longer by the day. To my thinking, knowing that their are some aspects of arms ownership that escape government control serves as a deterrant to a government that seems eager to overstep its rightful bounds.
JMO.
I'm not religious but AMEN..
DO background checks at the flea markets??
?
The undercover video was part of an investigation launched on the instructions of New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg. Criminals, terrorists, it doesn't matter - law enforcement tracked sales to shows like the one depicted.
It is not a production of David Niewert or John Amato. It is not an 'independent filmmaker' being underwritten by a conservative mouthpiece.
You're mistaken. From the NYC.gov press release:
Well, that answers that question. Thanks David.
It sounds a bit like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" doesn't it? They have to refuse if they have reason to believe it may be prohibited, but no one asks - and no one tells.
Everybody knows that gun dealers have been selling guns illegally for years and nothing was being done to keep these assault weapons out of crazy Right Wing-Nut terrorists hands.
..up the NRA's collective nose?
Speakin' as a Texan I would suggest further south.
..and won't put that image in their mind...oops, too late!
colonistic thinking?
Were they ACORN
Or liberals
Trying to make the Nazis look bad?
... I never trusted them they come from the wrong genera.
The maples scream "Oppression!" but the oaks ignore their pleas.
D
why we are fighting terrorism in the Middle East?
black gold
so all these "captains of industry" can get their corporate welfare so they have enough free time to tell us what is the best way to pull ourselves by our own bootstraps.
from iron to gold to diamonds...you name it.
Unfortunately the Taliban don't want to make nice with the U.S. corporations to go in there and
rapetake"make a deal" with them to do business.That's why the Bush Administration told the Taliban, "Either we'll carpet you with money or we'll carpet you with bombs".
And there you are.
...stating that these are just an isolated incidents and in no way represents the whole which abide by the laws.
The irony will make my head explode, but then again, it's been close to that point for a while now.
"This is the work of only a handful of bad apples... still under 80% of gun sales. You can't draw any conclusions from that!"
D
We all know background checks are just too much trouble at a gun show. People want some way to buy guns without all the hassle of actually buying a gun
legallyresponsibly.They need those guns RIGHT NOW! They don't the the cops involved until AFTER they shoot someone.
Will FOX News cover illegal gun sales?
I went to the local gun store to buy a pistol. I produced my Ohio D/L, my green card, my S/S card and still got refused because I didn't have three consecutive utility bills in my name...
In my town in Illinois it was completely impossible to buy a gun at a gun show without a FOID and such. There were quite a few shows a year too but none of the dealers there were interested in an illegal sale..
EDIT : I love the made up statistic of 30% though it sounds really scary and highly unlikely. I could of very easily bought an illegal untraceable gun off the street and I have no idea why you believe a terrorist would buy a gun that has identifying paperwork.
EDIT 2 : OH and nice job validating the Acorn videos by playing the same game.. I fully expect this site to stop crying foul now in the interest of being fair right?
EDIT 3 : I do hope the venders that were willing to and made these illegal sales are going to be prosecuted under the variety of laws they have already violated.
... this was done through the auspices of New York City. You know, a place that has a damned good reason to be mindful of people buying guns, whether they be muggers or terrorists.
And, again, C&L had NOTHING to do with this video. Bloomberg ain't exactly a flamin' liberal.
LIke I said earlier they then should prosecute these people to the fullest extent of the law otherwise this is just a publicity stunt.
... that Bloomberg's newser isn't until later this morning, you're jumping to conclusions.
SO are you..
BLoomberg is a flaming liberal dear god...
EDIT : I also enjoy the fact that you believe only criminals are interested in purchasing firearms..
I pointed out is that the videos are not the work of C&L. That's a fact.
Bloomberg is moderate/conservative on many issues. Also fact.
I never claimed the videos were the work of C&L that's a fact.
Many of BLoomberg political obsessions are Liberal leaning and that's a fact. You have no idea how much his health food kick for the city is pissing off conservatives/moderates.
Bloomberg is middle of the road conservative ToS.
That is all.
Carry on.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder it seems :P
Sadly this is a subject that conservatives and liberals could work together if the liberals would stop with the "OMG ALL GUNS BAD AND BAD PEOPLE OWN GUNS" crap and actually worked on real solutions.
You've seen just about everyone here comment to the effect that guns shouldn't be outlawed but the laws should be consistent and uniformly enforced. So exactly where is the liberal, "OMG.." of which you speak?
Any common sense reform to our gun laws has ALWAYS been opposed by the conservatives.
working on real solutions? Just launch yourself at something you perceive as a problem with loads of public money, not really knowing the extent of said problem? Sure. That works.
Hey I guess calling yourself Tool of Society isn't far off at all
on the fly?
Do they have special psychic powers in your tiny corner of Illinois that us folk in the rest of the continental United States are unaware of?
You can't get a FOID card without a background check. For god's sake people try to at least learn about the existing laws before you criticize them...
before criticising the steps that go into to it.
I take a lot of things can happen in between card renewals, and I am sure no one has ever thought about "falsifying" one either.
the nics check "on the fly"? Easy. Cell phone or a computer with internet access. A guy I know bought a firearm from a dealer in a McD parking lot, it was a rarer gun and the dealer was a decent distance away so they agreed to meet in the middle, the guy filled out the paperwork on the hood of his car, and the dealer called it in.
on the NYC payroll. There is a difference.
The right-wing nut job was breaking the law.
The investigators were deputized to help an investigation for the purpose of upholding the law.
Yeah, same thing.
The Acorn videos were intended to slander a whole group of people and I see this video doing the same thing. Unless they actually prosecute these dealers the only real difference is one video was done in a potentially illegal way and this video wasn't..
No actually illegal. In MD at least. For god's sake Tool, try to at least learn about the existing laws before you pontificate about their legality.
Never be near a cheeky crack-shot.
The nerve! That's totalitarianism! That's invasion of privacy!(\sarc)
That this idiot is a registered republican? I'll give you a 1/10 odd.
Republicans are all now "independents."
But...
Don't shut the gun shows down, just regulate them better, and prosecute to the fullest extent of the law, the dealers who do this type of crap.
Although you probably would want hookers rights established, too.
I think maybe if prostitution was legalized, there might be less rape.
I'm all for a legal and highly regulated prostitution market. I wouldn't indulge but it'd be better for everyone if the marketplace was regulated and taxed.
Maybe you can teach the whores on the proper handling of your tool
So you need not to anymore.
Hey...they do deserve rights actually.
Wed, 10/07/2009 - 09:00 — liberalNmoderation
I think maybe if prostitution was legalized, there might be less rape.
____________________________________________________________________
But legally wouldn't it be considered rape if you stiff the girl on relieving your stiffness?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0lZVXM2ExY&fe...
For failure of payment for services rendered. Civil court...less jail time but MUCH bigger payout!
Hell at this point just enforcing the law would be a good start but apparently they'd rather make videos than arrest people..
But the people making these videos aren't law enforcement.
at a gun show would make even more interesting video.
if by interesting, you mean a bloodbath.
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs31/300W/f/2008/2...
Well the poster above said they were deputized so either they were deputized or they weren't and this video was illegal...
n/t
but PI's on NYC's payroll...dunno what the technical difference is though...
.
NYC hired private investigators to do this in other states, so they were out of their jurisdiction, even if they had been deputized.
And the video might be illegal if it was made in Maryland, but most other states don't have the anti-wiretap laws that Maryland has.
I honestly am, however we need tough regulations to make sure that they are not available to anyone. Guns rights are often confused with regulations that keeps everyone safe. If you are honest, doesn't have criminal past, are mentally stable, you should get a gun. And anytime we find a projectile discharged illegally, we should know where it came from.
and make the bullets more expensive.
That's why Mormons wear magick underwear
They deflect bullets.
.
that firearms should never be allowed into the National Parks.
for our second amendment rights to a well regulated hookery.
they were ONLY selling guns. Think what terrible things might happen if they were registering voters!
with a commission for every semi automatic gun they sold to a person named after a Disney animated cartoon character?
One significant difference between private gun sales without background checks, and underage prostitution rings staffed with illegal alien girls from Central America, organized with our tax dollars, is that most private gun sales without background checks are legal.
Just saying.
I do not recall anything other than a fictional representation that such a prostitution ring existed, much less that it was organized by tax dollars. But then you may be thinking of the guys Colin Powell and Condi Rice hired for security in Afghanistan?
The mind of the common conservative is a wondrous source of perversion and aberration.
You learn more about people not by what they claim to be, but by what they make up when accusing other people. Projection being the cruel mistress that it is...
You say cruel mistress like it's a bad thing.
http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a0320.pdf
... when she is the go-to gal for the same people who want the rest of us to just "do it" a couple of times a year, missionary style, fully clothed, and with the lights out.
that the nation that has the most guns....(and bombs and missiles and such)...
would also proclaim itself to be the greatest of all.
**shrug** This is capitalism, pure and simple. Sell a product, make a profit, ignore the moral repercussions.
Nothing to see here. Move along.
I love it when you don't go along to get along and your comments get deleted.
It's a cultural thing, don't ya' know.
.
Dear crazy 2nd Amendment lovers...
... A "WELL REGULATED MILITIA" means something, NO?
So, when selling guns to crazy gun owners, is that what "WELL REGULATED" means?
.
'The right of the people' means something too, NO?
or so old rimblowjellyjob will be putting his 2 centavos in here to set you all straight after the fact
.
A few Acorn employees get nailed giving tax advice to "Hos and Pimps" and a flurry of Right wing outrage erupts, but a bunch of fly by night gun dealers attempt to sell guns to - who cant pass a background check? Criminals? The mentally ill? And I have heard not a PEEP from the Right, up to and including their "News" outlets.
So you can ARM criminals but you can't help them lie on their taxes? Thanks party of Lincoln!
Sharonville OH is Cincinnati area...isn't this Mean Jean Schmidt's district?
Makes sense. If they'd vote for that know-nothing, no background checks at gun shows all seems to fall right in the same line of group idiocy.
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