Huh? Since when is attempting to blow up a federal building NOT an act of domestic terrorism?
Fox News' anchors seemed eager to assure viewers today that the plane-crash attack on IRS offices in Austin this morning was not an act of domestic terrorism.
Oh really?
Now, it's true that Homeland Security officials originally released this statement:
“We believe there’s no nexus with criminal or terrorist activity”
They later amended this to just say "terrorist activity." Fox's Catherine Herridge also reported that Homeland Security officials had briefed President Obama on the incident, and that he had been told "this was not an act of terrorism."
So how did Fox's anchors interpret all this?
Greg Jarrett:
And the president was told this was not an act of terrorism. We have not received word, though, as to whether the F-16s are still airborne, just in case, until the Department of Homeland Security and the military is absolutely satisfied that this is the act of a single individual who used a dangerous instrumentality, to be sure, a plane, as a weapon.
And it is akin, I suppose, Megan, to, you know, somebody who gets angry at a workplace, and takes a gun, or a knife, and goes in and begins to attack people. This is unusual because instead of a gun or an automobile, it was indeed an airplane. But it has happened before.
Megyn Kelly:
Our Homeland Security contacts telling us, this does not appear to be terrorism in any way that that word is conventionally understood. We understand from officials that this is a sole, isolated act.
Well, this is true only if the conventional understanding of the word "terrorism" has now been narrowed down to mean only international terrorism and to preclude domestic terrorism altogether.
Since when, after all, is attempting to blow up a federal office as a protest against federal policies NOT an act of domestic terrorism?
You know, Timothy McVeigh used a "dangerous instrument" to kill 168 people in Oklahoma City. He too was angry at the federal government, and was converted to the belief that acts of violence was the only means possible to prevent the government from overwhelming our freedom and replacing it with tyranny. He also believed that his act of exemplary violence would inspire others to take up similar acts to stave off the threat of tyranny.
And that's exactly what Joseph Andrew Stack believed too:
I know I’m hardly the first one to decide I have had all I can stand. ... I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer.
Now, some of Fox's misunderstanding may be the result of sources at Homeland Security who are being careless with how they define terrorism. Because clearly, this was not an act of international terrorism, nor a product of a larger terrorist conspiracy (thus the reference to the nexus.
Herridge moved toward making this distinction, but was never clear in her report:
Kelly: I take it that they mean terrorism in the larger sense that most of us are used to?
Herridge: They mean terrorism in that capital T way. If it does turn out to be an intentional act, that could be something entirely separate.
This too is nonsense: There are different kinds terrorism, to be certain. There's international terrorism. Then there's domestic terrorism, sometimes conducted by a larger conspiracy, and sometimes conducted by small cells like McVeigh and Terry Nichols, and lone wolves like Eric Rudolph, Scott Roeder and James Von Brunn.
All of these acts fit the FBI's twin definition of terrorism:
Domestic terrorism refers to activities that involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any state; appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; to influence the policy of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping; and occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States. [18 U.S.C. § 2331(5)]
International terrorism involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any state. These acts appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination or kidnapping and occur primarily outside the territorial jurisdiction of the United States or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to intimidate or coerce, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.
Joseph Andrew Stack's act this morning fits that definition too. Brian Stelter at the NYT notes that all the networks are treading around the word gingerly. Fox, meanwhile, is running hard and fast with the claim that it wasn't terrorism at all.
Which is funny, for a network that made a big deal about the Obama administration's supposed softness on terrorism.
if the pilot is found to be left-leaning, you betcha.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
call Palin's witch doctor to calm them all down.
"if the pilot
is found to becan be made to look like he was left-leaning, you betcha."...just a matter of time.
dark skinned.
.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
If this were a PETA member who flew a plane into the Food and Drug Administration in protest of eating chicken McNuggests, Megyn and the rest of the FOXaganda shllls would be screeching terrorism from the highest perches.
I am referring to the "News Anchors" or "Hot Air Balloon Heads" or whatever they call themselves.
Have they no idea of the harm they are doing?
Have they no idea of the harm they are doing?
Of course they do. Not all of them, but a lot of them.
They do it on purpose.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
They have to put food on their families.
"Have they no idea of the harm they are doing?"
Their pocketbooks are doing just fine, they have no cares at all.
For nearly seven years, the nation has turned its terror focus on Al Qaeda and the hunt for Usama bin Laden. But there is a domestic terror threat that federal officials still consider priority No. 1 — eco-terrorism.
The torching of luxury homes in the swank Seattle suburb of Woodinville earlier this month served as a reminder that the decades-long war with militant environmentalists on American soil has not ended.
"It remains what we would probably consider the No. 1 domestic terrorism threat, because they have successfully continued to conduct different types of attacks in and around the country," said FBI Special Agent Richard Kolko.
Ya right, cause they've killed so many people. Nice strawman there Clem.
The truth is this fellow fits the teabagger profile to a T. Relatively well off, white, male, middle aged, college educated.
that if he were a Peta member, the Fox idiots would have no trouble calling him a terrorist. Now cool your fucking jets, Clem.
There has never, not once, ever been even an injury as a result of extremist environmentalists' actions let alone a death. When it comes to domestic terrorism, right wing Republicanism is the nation's number 1 terrorist threat.
Environmental activists get labeled "terrorists" because what they attack is *property*, not people.
But then right wing loons don't care what the truth is so long as FOX "News" tells the easilly manipulated idiots what they're supposed to think and say.
I was supporting sixandseveneights' assertion by quoting from Fox. Jesus fucking christ.
When you post an ideology that you don't actually support or defend, you should say so, otherwise because this is a typed media, you appear to everyone to be the one harboring the Republicanism.
the post or follow the link and instead leap to conclusions and launch personal attacks, YOU appear to everyone to be the one harboring the Republicanism.
When you post ideologies and don't reference the fact that you are being sarcastic, you get to be called on it. Your intellectual superiors don't have the burdon of reading your mind like Commander Spock of the Starship Enterprise, loon.
you're just hoping so much for a "troll" to stumble in here so you can unload on someone. Usually I double read a comment to make sure I undersood it correctly before going off. Have a bad day or something?
hijacked the thread to change the subject and then plays victim.
Scroll through my comments and you'll see I'm no troll.
You and DamOTclese made an honest mistake and mistook BigDaddyMalcontent's sardonic post for his actual opinion. No big deal - it happens all the time.
Now howzabout y'all stop stamping your hooves & pounding your antlers and let it go. The three of you are in agreement on this issue.
Frick, I want an online war to the death.
.
at a suitable place?
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
"There has never, not once, ever been even an injury as a result of extremist environmentalists"
I thought the Unabomber had a thorn in his saddle, with regards to the environment?
"He decided to start a bombing campaign after watching the wilderness around his home being destroyed by development"
Study the symptoms not the virus...
... not environment. Krazy Ted was a luddite.
The Unabomber's activities were not motivated by some environmentalist ideologies, that was a notion originally contrived by the Ann Ryand "Objectivists" which managed to get some play among the right wing at the time, and the amusing "Objectivists" also tried to proclaim the Unabomber as a member of Earth First! despite the Bomber's distain for any such organization.
The Federal summary reports on injury or homocide incident statistics in the past even note that no injuries or deaths have ever occured due to tree spiking though the FBI reports that the *potential* is certainly there.
The FBI also notes that the only ever recorded injury for a possible tree spiking was a mill worker who was hit by blade shrapnel at a mill after the saw fractured after hitting a nail which had been used to string barbed wire for a fence that the tree grew up around.
That incident is used by the FBI to classify tree spiking as doubly fatally provocative since nails are less of a hazard than deliberate spikes.
If there are any legitimate injuries or death due to envieronmentalist leftists, frice@skeptictank.org -- I would appreciate anyone sending me verifiable references since I do FBI-related behavioral studies.
http://www.albionmonitor.com/4-15-96/efunabom...
"There has never, not once, ever been even an injury as a result of extremist environmentalists' actions let alone a death"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kaczyns...
I agree that it's a lower priority, but don't make these wide-sweeping claims.
is . . no one intervened and tried to get this guy the help he needs.
No surprise in our "Me, Mine, More, Now" reactionary fear based society.
.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
without health insurance that covers emotional/mental health issues (which most don't anyway) whose gonna' pay for the help he probably needed??
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
You can blame the ACLU and the progressive factions of the 1970's for that. The mentally disturbed used to be retained against their will and forced in to treatment. That was wrong and the ACLU spearheaded the effort which opened the asylum doors wide and allowed all the loons to walk out.
The result was a rise in Republicanism -- and disturbed people like Joe Stack.
Actually Ronald Reagan got the mentally ill released in CA because they were just too expensive to care for.
So cops and jails got to care for them and that's so much less expensive.[/snark]
The ACLU just thought they should have access to courts and have treatment that was effective and humane.
That must have been his goal as well... /snark.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
......Actually Ronald Reagan got the mentally ill released in CA because they were just too expensive to care for......
Somebody sould have informed the immigrants, especially men from the middle east, who thought they could have their American greencard wives "committed" when they "misbehaved", LOL.
when Reagan simply cut them loose from mental institutions for lack of funding.
"Conventionally understood terrorism" is when the person is dark skinned.
How can we be afraid of somebody who looks just like us?
What do you mean us, white man? [/Tonto]
.....should give you a clue.
Been complaining about his "money" problems for 20 years but I notice he didn't bother to sell any of his toys.
Think this wouldn't be characterized as a terrorist act if his name was Muhammed instead of Joseph?
Imagine a Christian extremist flying a plane into a church - would that be terrorism?
Not as long as it wasn't a Muslim or a colored person.
The RW works under binary logic - you know black and white.
This isn't terrorism because the guy wasn't born in the middle east.
"I know that there are people who do not love their fellow
man, and I hate people like that! " ~ Tom Lehrer (1928 - )
yep, it doesn't fit their "profile" of a terrorist, so it can't be a terrorist.
23 October 1970, when Francis B. Alexander -- anti-Catholic and anti-Mexican -- rented a single engine plane, and flew it into the Virgen de San Juan del Valle Shrine in Hildalgo County Texas. It is considered something of a miracle in the Valley that with 130 people in the shrine at the time, Alexander was the only fatality. The Shrine was destroyed, although the image of the Virgin was undamaged.
But, back in those days, we didn't use the word "terrorist" just calling the guy a crazy asshole.
Well, you know, before they dumped Klinghofer off the Achile Lauro, there was no "terrorism". But we sure have been hearing a lot about it since then.
This is just a matter of definition. Include it; don't include it. Does it really matter? Except that if every loon that tries to kill himself and/or others is a terrorist, then what violent thug isn't?
Maybe a terrorist is just someone who makes us afraid. The more fearful you are, the more terrorists there are.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
@Fiver--How many teabaggers can dance on your pinhead? Tax whackjob crashes AIRPLANE into IRS building on purupose. Are you suggesting this happens everyday,Numbnuts? His intent was too kill as many as he could given the access he had to something that could inflict many deaths. He's apparently inspired my the many deaths of 9/11. His note says he was attacking the government and he hoped others would follow his lead. Pinhead sit down close your yapper.
Though you may disagree with the post, your personal attacks don't strengthen your opinion.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
Oh, I don't know, personal attacks help get the point across. Specially when the person being attacked is full of hot air, or noxious gas. Of course it can be dangerous: the gas might explode.
. . . and apparently quite sensitive about their own personal "terrors" being questioned.
So, ok Einstein, please tell us what great significance your shrill cries of "The Sky is Falling" should have. You've been given the power of universal lexicographer. You've successfully labeled something "terrorism." So what? Where does that get anyone?
The label is meaningless, but the fear is all too real and far too close to the surface.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Mass can be converted into energy. Lots of energy. That means something, by gum.
Spearmint or Fruit?
. . . just keep that gum away from the noxious gas :)
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Hmmm . . .
Corruption favors the wealthy.
I'm outta here for now.
Thanks, fastfeat.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
but sometimes it's better to just toss a cool one. Have one for me--I'm stuck here w/o wheels in a sober friends home. Peace.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
..he's white, he had a family. And I'm willing to lay even money he attended the "right" church.
Why are you even asking that question? Because you already know the answer.
Tools..
Yeah, but Fox isn't news in the way that word is "conventionally understood."
Taxed
Enough
Already
Party :-/
Study the symptoms not the virus...
"I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer....take my pound of flesh and sleep well."
Actually, I think it sounded like a love letter to me. He was just CRAZY in love, not terror.
hasn't promoted this as an act of Extreme Left Wing Or Progressive Domestic Terrorism I suppose that's about the only positive thing
about it.
Granted, they are running rather slow.
"white, has a family" thing yet. But if they find an Obama sticker on his car--game on.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
Not yet, no, however that's only because the guy's skin hue was pinkish white. Had he been black, brown, or spoke English as a secondary language, the right wing media would be *screaming* the word "terrorism."
His background is also Republican though from his suicide note he seems to have become as fed up with his own Party as the majority of one-time Republicans.
Seems to be trying to back track here.
I guess actions do speak louder than words. And I'm not referring to Faux on that one.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Yeah. Sure. And right-wingers blowing up abortion clinics or killing doctors who perform abortions is not terrorism, either? Sure. I guess a person has to be brown and a non-Christian to be considered a terrorist.
It happened in Texas so what we should do is bomd the hell out of mexico. By god that will teach em. A little shock and awe on their asses. Think about it what would bush and chenny do?
republicanism/conservatism is a mental illness!
Sept 11th an international crime. But Bush Co wanted a war so they invented the "War on Terror".
Now terrorism has mutated to a term that can be applied to anything from a simple armed robbery right up to flying planes into buildings apparently.
doesn't matter if its during a bank robbery or a Circus show; if people are terrified and/or murdered at random, its terrorism.
The Bush regime also classified people setting fires to cars, buildings, tractors, sheds and stuff as "terrorism." Simple mundale crimes that are felonies were relegated to "terrorism" so that the FBI could try to justify its soaring budgets under the Bush regime as well as its horriffic human rights and civil rights violations.
Hum, a shame that McCain isn't President, then may be the stupid fuck *would* bomb some innocent country -- like Canada or India. Maybe then the people of the United States would finally drag *all* the politicians out in to the streets for fair trials and the systemic systematic problems of the country would actually be addressed.
that to Christians and Christian conservatives, it's only terrorism if a non-white and/or Muslim does something violent.
I'd consider this an act of vengence/frustration as evidenced by his "Mr. IRS" screed - not an act designed to instill fear in a large number of people; yes, it had that effect, but it's not terrorism as we've come to know it - this is not on par w/ McVeigh.
Considering I work for the IRS - it was a little tense today, spoke w/ colleagues in Austin, but no one considers this a terrorist act.
Considering you and your collegues were a little tense today, would that count as AirTeabag's intention or do you think he was doing it as a goof. If you and your pals at the IRS are cool with people landing planes on your desk, then yes you're right it's not terrorism. Idiot. What no brown people no harm done? I don't believe you work for IRS from what you've written, I think you're Bristol (the tards real mom) Palin.
Technically, it wouldn't matter whether rainlion and his friends think it's great to fly planes in through the windows.
The pilot's GOAL is what makes it terrorism. And if the 'manifesto' being credited to him actually IS his, then it's most certainly terrorism.
First and foremost - I am "brown skinned" you putz, so your whole attribution about no brown people no harm is not only insulting, but incredibly ignorant. Secondly, the tension came from the fact that A. No one knew what was going one and B. No one was sure if anyone in the building was injured/killed - we now know that two people lost their lives along with Stack.
Regardless - again, his diatribe clearly paints a picture of a disturbed person who had issues with how his particular case(s) were handled - this is not the same as McVeigh or the Twin towers.
While I'm at it, I'm truly amazed that the first you do when you encounter someone with an opinion different than yours is to attack them. Real mature sport.
As for where I work - I really don't care whether you believe me or not... had initially posted my work email address, but realized that was only going to open me up to a lot of idiocy.
It was designed to spark a revolution.
Then why pray tell have the FBI and other authorities declined to define it as terrorism? If it is, then it is... that's all I'm saying
Read Joe Stack's manifesto / suicide letter again, though. The goal of flying an aircraft on to the IRS in-basket included the specific desire to whip up American citizens to increase the body count and wake them up to the treasonous policies of the IRS.
Terrorism.
As an aside, it's too bad that Stack didn't take out your one-time organized crime boss Fredrick Goldberg, circa 1983, the IRS Commissioner who was allegedly raping children, got photographed by Scientology raping a boy on his bed in his residence then got blackmailed by Scientology, then issued Scientology its fraudulent 1983 tax exemption status.
Instead Stack targeted innocent people -- which *is* terrorism.
Cute... you pull out Goldberg who was commissioner 2 years after I graduated high school - who has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand just to make your own attack against the agency... most of whom as you admit are innocent people.
Nice...
Someone ought to tell the DHS.
Did the other two people on the plane leave notes as well, or are they victims of the terror unleashed as the plane headed towards the building?
The two that went to the hospital were on the plane. I don't think, I'm not sure, but I doubt they were.
Did they know what they were getting involved with at take-off? Did they/could they have prevented the incident?
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
Breaking news says the pilot told the other passengers that he was going to drop his tax forms off at the main office in Austin so he could get his return faster.
It was all just an innocent misunderstanding. Case Closed.
;)
I think everyone is getting this plane crash today mixed up with the one that crashed into a home yesterday. There were three people in the plane that crashed yesterday, but I have heard nothing about anyone being in the plane today except the pilot.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Was a brown person flying the plane? White people can't be terrorists anymore.
Definitely needs MORE BROWN. I find it insulting that Fox is insinuating that stump stupid, shitheel,inbred, racist, birther, teascrotums don't have the brains or browness to pull off a terrorist act.
All they have to do is say the guy was a frequent reader of Huffington Post and Crooks and Liars and the whole game would shift.
Maybe that's FOX "News'" problem. Maybe they recognize the fact that their viewers real;ly *are* so frothingly stupid that they could not acquire a private pilot's license leave alone fly an airplane.
Then again, rightard Fuhrer George W. Bush managed to fly a jet on those rare days he wasn't snorting cocaine or too drunk to zip up his flight suit.
this is a guy that has had a long run of financial and personal bad luck and a beef with the IRS. That alone would just make it a criminal desperate act. BUT, he wrote the manifesto and published it for ALL to read. Read it and then decide whether it was terrorism. This was a suicide with a statement and purpose.
Buddhist Monk approach. Sit down in front of the building. Douse himself with fuel, then set himself on fire as a protest.
preferable.
anyone he could. He was making an "important" point rather than trying to get some sort of concession, but it was still a political statement. And that sort of behavior can be infectious.
A guy named Daniel Shaull did just that when protesting against Unger Furs only he was unsuccessful since the fur store had locked the doors so he could not run in and set the place on fire.
The right wing media routinely touted that suicide as "terrorism" despite the fact that nobody in Portland or anywhere else had ever heard of the guy or ever seen him before.
Was that the guy that the PPB mistakenly pepper sprayed after he was on fire?
I thought the guy was just a mental case. I didn't realize he was a mental case with a cause.
He seemed to have quite a good run of luck. You don't move 1/2 across the country and buy a $230k house & a private airplane if your 'luck' is bad. He also didn't pay his taxes in CA, when his 'luck' was good.
He wasn't exactly hurting in the lifestyle dept. His crap just finally caught up with him.
hate taxes and the gubnint are patriots!
Cue the Kabuki....
being overlooked in this . . is the way the IRS targets people and goes after them. That's been completely lost as the Media continues to spin this event for their own purposes.
The FOX "News" traitors would *certainly* be admitting this is terrorism if the owner of the airplane Joe Stack had had brown skin or (gods help us) spoke some language other than English.
The fact that Stack appears to have been a right wing "tax protester" for decades is what's keeping these scumbags from admitting that this is equal to the Timothy McVeigh terrorist attack.
If Rachael Maddow flew this plane all the Fox newstards would have one big 3 day long circle jerk.
Oh noes! You have just given the Librual C0nsp1rac3 an ideaz! Good bye, Rachael Maddow! We will miss her.
... would fit the definition of South Carolina's SARA (Subversive Activity Registration Act), and is therefore a terrorist.
Megan, to, you know, somebody who gets angry at a workplace, and takes a gun, or a knife, and goes in and begins to attack people..."
Except for the tiny fact that he wasn't attacking people at work or anyone he knew, he was attacking the government and our way of life. So, yeah, you could consider that terrorism.
Wouldn't he have to be a part of some group or organization to really be a "terrorist". I mean the man is dead so how can anyone be afraid of him now? If he were a member of some anti-tax group threatening to blow up govt. buildings then I could see him being called a terrorist. For now it looks to me like he came to the end of his rope and was angry with the IRS. Yes, he did something awful but who was he acting in the name of other than himself?
I don't want to start a fire storm here, I'm just asking.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
A serial killer could more or less be considered a terrorist, or one of those anti-choice loons that set of bombs. They're usually loners. Of course I doubt the FBI would agree with me on that.
A serial killer may cause terror, but they would not be considered a terrorist. The anti-choice loons setting off bombs at abortion clinics, however, loners or not, are considered terrorists.
Terrorism, like insanity, has everything to do with why you do something, not what you did or whether someone else was involved.
Of course, he did "terrorize" many in that office building today. But so does a driver being pursued in a high-speed freeway chase.
I prefer to think of a terrorist as one who does his/her deed in support of a group who share his/her views, not just as a disgruntled individual.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
That's where I am on this too. He's a guy who freaked out and did something awful but he will never terrorize anyone again. As far as I have heard, he didn't manage to kill anyone but himself.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
...that according to your definition, Theodore Kaczynski (AKA The Unabomber) is not a terrorist? Neither is Eric Rudolph, the man who set off the bomb at the Atlanta Olympic Games as well as other bombs at abortion clinics and gay/lesbian nightclubs...
Gee, I wonder what the families of their victims would have to say about your opinion that politically-motivated mass murder is not enough to make you a terrorist!
Never trust anyone who insists that patriotism requires you to blindfold yourself with the flag.
acts. And while this one may be added to the list, I'm still not convinced that this was "politically motivated" based on what I've seen so far. So far, I'm going for "economically driven with vague political anger", but I just don't see it as a purely political act. Yet.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
He was actually angry with particular individuals over specific events as opposed to a vague nebulous Something and its ideals.
The definition of terrorism has absolutely nothing to do with it's the act of an individual, or a member of a group.
Committing a criminal act in order to make a political point is an act of terrorism, whether or not you conspired with anyone else. And if the information in his 'manifesto' is correct, then he most certainly was trying to make a point - his goal was to draw attention to what he saw as an injustice.
Does anybody disagree that the Unibomber was a terrorist? He acted alone.
Does anybody disagree that Tim McVeigh was a terrorist? He wasn't acting on behalf of any group, wasn't even a member of any of the militia groups that he was so sympathetic to. He was just a guy that got one of his Army buddies to help him out building a bomb.
Eric Rudolph acted alone in the Olympic Park bombing and abortion clinic bombings, although again, he was sympathetic to several groups. He was also a terrorist.
Your motivations, not your actions or associations, determines whether your act is terroristic or not.
Lone activists can be terrorists, sure. The guy's suicide note makes an appeal and states the hope that his suicide will spark a growing body count as well as "wake up" Americans to the abuses of the IRS / fascist State.
The guy's motivation was politically and financially motivated, complete with the stated goals of provoking like-minded action on the part of other Americans.
The idea of terrorism also grows from the realization that at any time any ideology-based loon can drop out of the sky.
I believe if he committed a suicide attack for a political purpose, that would be considered terrorism. He's martyring himself to make a political statement and to further a political goal. It's really no different from a suicide bomber.
Oh! I know, I know. . . When that person is white and male. Then he's just disgruntled.
You remind me of the mad bomber from the idiot movie "Speed." Poor people are insane. Rich people are eccentric. LOL.
Brown people are terrorists. White people are disgruntled.
Hell, now you've reminded me of the awesome movie "Easy Rider."
Common sense tells me that if this, a plane deliberately piloted into a building, is not terrorism. And assuming 9/11 is still considered and act of terrorism. Then clearly terrorism is defined as more than one plane flying into a building of sufficient height.
Mine tells me (unfortunately) that ideology rather than the act itself is the standard which is being used to determine what does and does not count as terrorism -- namely, that violent acts committed in the name of right-wing political issues are inherently somehow not quite as wrong (and their victims somehow not quite as important) as violent acts committed in the name of other ideologies.
Never trust anyone who insists that patriotism requires you to blindfold yourself with the flag.
"Since when, after all, is attempting to blow up a federal office as a protest against federal policies NOT an act of domestic terrorism?"
Perhaps because it WASN'T about that at all. It is exactly as I have been saying, that whole rant was actually BS.
This was really about money and revenge pertaining to certain individuals. It's there in his homicide note if you read it carefully.
when it's personal you take a weapon and kill the individuals.
He didn't just want to kill those individuals, he wanted to destroy them. He mentions them BY NAME and gives the center portion of his homicide note to make sure we all know who is to blame for why all the innocent people in the building died.
Don't you know, it was totally his tax guys fault. If only he had mentioned his wifes income, those people wouldn't have had to die!
Get it now?
He was a murderer, not a terrorist.
aside from the pilot...I've heard of no deaths yet.
At least one person is "missing" and numerous others are in the hospital. However I can tell you are missing the fact that he clearly intended for many people to die, and he may well have succeeded.
Although we hope his mission failed, the intent is still there.
I merely point out that no one other than the pilot is confirmed dead. I made no comment in that post on motivation or whether it was terrorism. I happen to agree it was, but don't put words in my mouth. I'm merely going by the facts here.
The reports are there are two people in the hospital and they do not have life threatening injuries. One person is missing as of now.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
had an office in that building? Where did you hear that? I'd only heard that there were IRS offices there.
As far as I know the IRS only has 2 or 3 floors there? I don't know that the person he specified in his rant was actually inside the building.
Like I said, from what I can tell this was actually about destroying a certain person through guilt instead of actually killing him.
But that dismisses the rest of his suicide note. He had decades of ideological notions involving the Republican supposition that income tax was voluntary, he was a long-time "tax protester" whose ideals eventually got him in to legal and financial difficulties.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_(United_States)
I had thought that the tax protest movement had peaked and went in to decline with the death of Ronald Reagan however it looks like I was mistaken. Looks like other right-wing loons *still* harbor the same ideologies that Joe Stack once did.
He can still have those beliefs, perhaps that is why he chose to (IMO) use them to glorify what he was doing, yet commit murder as I have described.
IMHO I think many people are taking in the murderers own note hook, line, and sinker. I think that is EXACTLY what he was hoping for, but that isn't the real reason he did what he did.
to this quote:
http://crooksandliars.com/comment/permalink/1...
And perhaps the pilot was an alien from another planet or maybe it was batboy or maybe your brain is rotting from the inside out. It could happen. Just because it wasn't in his suicide note doesn't mean anything, right. Thank you for looking at the facts and having no conclusion. But feel free to just pull theories out of your ass. If we want to deal with retards we just have to wait till your Queen Sarah is on TV again.
This lunatic wrote a whining suicide letter, evading the fact that he wasn't filing or paying Income Tax, got caught and stuck with back taxes, full of rants against "corruption" as a cover story to cloak his vicious acts in "tragic nobility", and repeated crying poor over the fortunes he lost. Then, he BURNS DOWN HIS HOUSE, runs off, leaves a bomb in his car and righteously flys his OWN AIRPLANE into a building in a deliberate attempt to murder the innocent people inside! How many people own a PA28 Cherokee, (list price used 1979 about $130,000.)? I wish I was that poor.
To sum up:
1)He was a serial tax dodger who thought income tax is illegal, and being an engineer, just didn't have to pay, and was infuriated when the laws were applied to him. To lose the amount of money he whined about, would entail many years of non-payment.
2)He was a sociopath who didn't hesitate to attempt murdering however many innocent people were in that building, not to mention people at the airport when the thoughtfully planted bomb went off.
For the "authorities" to announce this isn't "terrorism" just proves that terrorism is defined by them to be whatever and whoever they choose it to be, that day.
Where did you hear about his placing a bomb in his car? Do you have a link perhaps for that?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
MSNBC mentioned this, then just now stated they DIDN'T find a bomb.
Sorry!
If you read his letter carefully you can tell that he was trying to displace the blame onto very specific individuals. This was an attack he meant to be aimed at destroying those particular individuals by making them feel, or convincing others, that THEY are responsible for the deaths of the innocent people inside the building.
I worked toward my private pilot's license some years ago -- gave it up because of my poor eye sight and inability to identify landmarks on the ground.
The cost of maintaining a private aircraft like this is annually is phenomenal, as is the insurance coverage. Every 30, 50, then 100 hours on the engine run time requires expensive maintenance the likes of which average American citizens couldn't hope to pay.
There's also medical work that private pilots require to have done on themselves to maintain currancy. I have not been to a doctor in 20 years other than to have pain killers and anti biotics injected. Joe Stack managed to pay for doctors, insurance, and aircraft maintenance enough that he was current up until the time he did this.
That means he had more money than most of us. Maybe the IRS was threatening to take all of it from him.
Other Tax cheats who use Public Services but don't want to pay for them may decide its a great idea to kill some IRS employees. Only they'll use a bomb or poison the Office coffee pot.
just use UBS.
Im guessing when she said by conventional definitions she means its not a muslim person doing it so its not terrorism
LT
If you didn't make personal attacks on everyone you doesn't agree with your comments would be perhaps worthwhile reading.
You do realize the suicide bombers in Iraq and other countries are part of a group, don't you?
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
One does not need to be part of a group to be a terrorist; fitley is quite correct. The terrorism that Joe Stack imposed was brief and contained however the *intent* was to be national, accordnig to the suicide note.
It's terrorism.
The only thing I don't agree with is fitley calling you a pinhead. LOL. That's a Republican term. }:-}
regular, generally respected posters here must be some sort of term of endearment, I guess.
Otherwise, to the "ignore" list you go.
"Parachutes are allowed in checked or carry-on baggage, but may not be worn in flight."
---Southwest Airlines
"I can only hope that the numbers quickly get too big to be white washed and ignored that the American zombies wake up and revolt; it will take nothing less. I would only hope that by striking a nerve that stimulates the inevitable double standard, knee-jerk government reaction that results in more stupid draconian restrictions people wake up and begin to see the pompous political thugs and their mindless minions for what they are. Sadly, though I spent my entire life trying to believe it wasn’t so, but violence not only is the answer, it is the only answer....take my pound of flesh and sleep well."
Now, this loon wanted to use his suicide/homicide (if any others were killed) as an example to make "American zombies wake up."
What does this tell you. Yes, a desperate deluded man. but it's still a terrorist act.
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