Liz Cheney on waterboarding: It's not torture, and besides, the end justifies the means
Liz Cheney went on Morning Joe today and tried to defend her father's recent media appearances, in which he attacked the Obama administration's policies in the war on terror, and moreover his role in enacting the torture regime that he's now so vigorously defending as having saved "thousands of lives."
To which Eugene Robinson responded in the Washington Post:
The fallacy lies in the fact that it is impossible for Cheney to prove that anti-terrorism methods within the bounds of U.S. law and tradition would have failed to prevent new attacks. Nor, for that matter, can Cheney demonstrate that torture and other abuses were particularly effective.
Liz Cheney, of course, thinks that's all wrong: These "interrogation methods" kept us safe -- and that's all the justification they need. She thinks having the OLC write up an excuse as paper cover is justification enough, and said so to Robinson, after he compared their lawbreaking to a bank robbery:
Robinson: But look, efficacy isn't the only thing we should be talking about here. We should also be talking about legality. We should be talking about whether what was done was legal. If I rob a bank and get away with it, there's a lot of efficacy there, but it's not legal.
Cheney: Yeah, but that's not a fair comparison. That's not fair. Because this program was very responsibly and carefully done. And if you look at the history of it, with the CIA coming to the NSC and saying, 'We need to know what we can do legally.' And the very legal opinions that the administration has released are in fact the documents that set out in great detail, this is what you can do, and this is what you can't do. If you cross this line, it becomes illegal. If you cross this line, it becomes torture. It was very, very clear. So I think it does a real disservice to the people who ran the program to equate it with robbing a bank or with criminal activity. You have to look at the very specific and important legal restrictions that were put in place.
Robinson: I do not think that's the case. Torture is a war crime. It is a war crime.
Cheney: That's right. And this wasn't torture. Those legal memos demonstrated where the line was, and where it would become torture.
Robinson: Waterboarding was torture during the Spanish Inquisition, it was torture when Pol Pot did it, and I believe it was torture when we did it. But that --
It quickly devolves into crosstalk, and Cheney spends a lot of time filibustering with her talking points, but she never is able to effectively respond to Robinson's chief point: Legal paperwork is not adequate cover for committing torture, one of the most heinous of all crimes. As he points out at the end:
No, you don't have to make that choice. You don't have to choose to act in an illegal manner. You don't have to.
And there was a revealing exchange at the end of this discussion between Cheney and Mike Barnicle:
Barnicle: Forget the legal niceties of legal or illegal. If he's the only one you have in your hand, then there's something seriously wrong with your intelligence capabilities. If you only have one guy who can give you that information?
Cheney: Exactly. That's exactly right. You know, Mike, that's a really important point, because that's where we were on Sept. 12, we didn't know anything about Al Qaeda -- well, I shouldn't say "anything." We didn't know very much about Al Qaeda.
That's right -- especially if the "we" is the Bush administration particularly, and not our intelligence agencies generally. Because the Bush/Cheney (starting to look even more like it really was Cheney/Bush, in retrospect) administration was completely asleep at the wheel on Sept. 11, having dismissed concern about Al Qaeda as "a Clinton thing".
Dick Cheney and George W. Bush and Condi Rice didn't know much about Al Qaeda on Sept. 12 because they had ignored Richard Clarke's in-depth memo on the subject back in January!
Then there was the Aug. 6, 2001, presidential daily briefing titled "Bin Laden determined to strike in US," which concluded:
We have not been able to corroborate some of the more sensational threat reporting, such as that from a ---- service in 1998 saying that Bin Laden wanted to hijack a U.S. aircraft to gain the release of "Blind Sheikh" Omar Abdel Rahman and other U.S.-held extremists.
Nevertheless, FBI information since that time indicates patterns of suspicious activity in this country consistent with preparations for hijackings or other types of attacks, including recent surveillance of federal buildings in New York.
The FBI is conducting approximately 70 full-field investigations throughout the U.S. that it considers bin Laden-related. CIA and the FBI are investigating a call to our embassy in the UAE in May saying that a group or bin Laden supporters was in the U.S. planning attacks with explosives.
Of course, that memo was ignored too. Neither Bush nor Cheney nor anyone else in the adminstration insisted we gather more intelligence on Al Qaeda at that point. It was a "Clinton thing."
Moreover, there was that 2006 National Intelligence Estimate whicch found that Bush's "war on terror" has certifiably made us less safe, and more likely to suffer future terrorist attacks:
A stark assessment of terrorism trends by American intelligence agencies has found that the American invasion and occupation of Iraq has helped spawn a new generation of Islamic radicalism and that the overall terrorist threat has grown since the Sept. 11 attacks.
The classified National Intelligence Estimate attributes a more direct role to the Iraq war in fueling radicalism than that presented either in recent White House documents or in a report released Wednesday by the House Intelligence Committee, according to several officials in Washington involved in preparing the assessment or who have read the final document.
The intelligence estimate, completed in April, is the first formal appraisal of global terrorism by United States intelligence agencies since the Iraq war began, and represents a consensus view of the 16 disparate spy services inside government. Titled “Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States,’’ it asserts that Islamic radicalism, rather than being in retreat, has metastasized and spread across the globe.
Among the reasons the report identified for its spread? "[T]he indefinite detention of prisoners at Guantánamo Bay and the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal".
And now we're expected to find Dick Cheney and Friends and Family credible when they warn us that Obama taking action to address these problems will make us more vulnerable?
Right.
As Robinson says in his column:
Other high-ranking officials from the previous administration, including George W. Bush himself, have had the manners and good sense to follow long-established custom and refrain from attacking the new president and his policies. Cheney, however, is not only accusing President Obama of knowingly putting American lives at risk -- an outrageous charge -- but is also diving headlong into partisan politics.
I'm wondering if the right wing really believes that waterboarding isn't torture- or if they beleive it's not torture....only if the US is doing it.
More arrogant American exceptionalism?
If US POWs were waterboarded- would the right wing concider that to be torture?
Didn't the Japanese waterboard US POWs in WW2? Were we wrong to accuse them of torturing US POWS -if waterboarding isn't really torture?
Ventura, honest as usual, said on the Larry King Show that waterboarding is torture. He would prosecute all that did it and all that authorized it. He called Cheney a coward during the Vietnam War & a chickenhawk now. Liz Cheney is the daughter of a coward & sadist. She's as sick as her father.
It's because a republican president did it so it's not torture but if a Democratic President did it, it would be torture. This seems to be to MO of the republican party.
Military Commissions Act of 2006.
Congress passed this Baby conceived by John McCain, Delivered in a closed Door meeting with George W Bush, and Bush Spanked it to make us cry!
1. If the President says it's legal; it is.
2. Provides Immunity from Prosecution.
All this Retroactive to 9-11-2001.
Bush approved all this Torture but said it wasn't torture which by the MCA makes it legal.
Sure it's a Conspiracy, by Republicans, to Obstruct Justice through Legislation, an unconstitutional and illegal ex-post facto law, and validates Torture; but, it appears Congress doesn't want to Repeal It.
Donaldd
..you can talk all you want but you'll probably visiting Daddy in jail if we ever get the Special Prosecutor appointed.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Better yet, she could visit him at the cemetary after he's executed for war crimes.
Let's see how far to the right they go before they fall off of the edge of this flat world.
The first time I heard her talk, and she shook her head with that spoiled rotten little girl shake that spoiled rotten little girls do....
I knew she was just a stupid rich bitch, who deserves neither respect or airtime.
My thoughts exactly, same for her father. Why the MSM keeps giving them a stage, I'll never know.
Blah, blah, blah. Talking over your critics until the point is lost - do they learn this debating technique at Koolaid College?
Listening to Liz Cheney drone on over every objection is a mild form of waterboarding in itself.
Strap the towel on her and fill the water jug, please. She deserves to get what she so earnestly defends.
Or so they thought...Was their campaign of torture justified, during the Spanish Inquisition? If the end justifies the means, would Cheney's twisted logic justify the Spanish inquisition?
Face the fact, Daddy dearest is not going to be able to travel the world with you. Holler all you want about Daddy dearest being misunderstood but in most parts of the world he is going to be treated as a war criminal the minute he steps foot on their soil.
Lizzie just enjoy the USA because we seem to be the only country not eager to prosecute this bastard.
I wouldn't protest at all if a van full of Spanish guys pulled up to Richard "The Dick" Cheney, threw the ruck sack over him, tossed him in the van and drove him to a waiting plane bound for Spain for prosecution for war crimes.
Every interview or debate that I have seen this woman in she does the same thing. If she doesn't like the question or answer she tries to talk over you. She's a bigger **** than her dad.
is intended to be a factual statement
Always got away with it before. My apologies, these conservatives bring out the worse in me.
is intended to be a factual statement
..should be waterboarded.
Then come back and I'll hear what you have to say.
"There is imminent organ failure." (Only THEN according to Yoo would it become "torture").
I read all these posts and I have to wonder....how can we have all the things we have today...every modern convenience, top universities, major creative talent in the arts and music and on and on and still behave like such an uncivilized society?
My neck's gettin' tired from me shakin' my head all the time.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
and it isn't inappropriate, nor misogynous nor rude, considering the level to which this debate has risen (or fallen)...
(software deletes expletive) uhhh, i think you get the picture
your name's Lebowski, Lebowski... and your wife is Bunny
why Lynn Cheney has anything to say on this topic?! Did she help Daddy Dick(weed) make his decisions about waterboarding and torture keeping AmeriKKKa safer? Is she some sitting senator or something? Who the f&ck is she anyway and why does she think anyone wants to hear her thoughts? I'm just sayin...
Are you serious?
"AmeriKKKa" is most definitely where the Cheneys live.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
as MountainMan23 states...
Looks like she is the only one who will come to her dad's defense. Okay the only person who doesn't have a show on Fox who will come to her dad's defense.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
She's like the mom of the accused serial killer, who gets on the witness stand and says "my son is such a good boy, he never could have killed all those people." Liz should be given as much attention and credibility as the jury would give to the mom, which is pretty much zilch. This attempt by Cheney to use his daughter to save his ass from legal jeopardy is pathetic. I wonder if George Bush has a guest house at that ranch in Paraguay.
I just visited the Kos site, and apparently Liz was on one of Fox's shows today. She's been a busy girl all day long.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
She really is a chip off the old block.
What was her title on the chyron: "Beneficiary of Nepotism"?
My question to morning joe: "who gives a f*&k what she says" - really pathetic to put on this classless shill - hint: it's not coincidence her last name is Cheney - she is actually related to the person who is at the apex of all this. But I guess people who believe you can get relevant information out of a waterboarded torture victim could believe that you can get a straight answer out of a Cheney about torture without them resorting to framing it in fictional universe where you presuppose that it works, that it doesn't have international effects, and that it's legal.
I do feel sorry for her though - her rearing by Dick and Lynn (which one puts a bigger chill up your spine?) has really warped her - she is now a graceless bully that probably should be kept separate from civilized society - really no hope for reforming bullys unfortunately.
Liz Cheney like her dear father are taking their show on the road. there best DEfense is their offense. there going to stick to the script in that special Machivellian way. their political will/POWER over morality. they see themselves above the law. the law is only for us pee-ons. they had their defense planned out a long time ago. every angle has been looked at and thought out. they wanted to perform torture and they wanted the opposition(al queda) to find out. it's NOT going to be easy trumping their rationale/reasoning that we haven't been attacked snce 9-11. having said that i do believe this is good for the country to let this unravel. maybe, just maybe somebody might talk.
you get to decide who's the dog and who's the pony!
They are so willing to surrender all freedoms because of the bogeyman of terrorism- I submit that they are as bad as the terrorists..
Actually... They call that "The Plan".
'The devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th, the New World Order was born on Sept 11th.' - Immortal Technique
Cheney and Bush are the two biggest terrorists this country has. For years they made it their business to terrorize enough people with talk of attacks and mushroom clouds to get what they wanted.
Let's see how far to the right they go before they fall off of the edge of this flat world.
Good god, is the whole Cheney clan completely devoid of any resemblance of humanity?
Yes.
her hypotheticals are so absurd
Plus do these idiots not realise a person being tortured will say ANYTHING to stop the pain???
EXACTLY! Whenever Repubs come up with this made-for-television nonsense, why can't the other folks on the panel smack it down for the idiocy that it is???
Yes, Liz Cheney is a lawyer and has the bona fides to speak about legal issues (although she's totally wrong), but who the f*@k cares what her sadistic, terrorist fantasies are? If I'm allowed to dream up any plot I want, I could justify any behavior in the world. Show me when and how the U.S. had reason to believe that a WMD attack was imminent and that the guy we had in custody knew about it! Show me!
Beware of anyone promising a future full of yesterdays.
Like to make examples of idiot lawyers to try to motivate us if we get wrecked by mid-terms. It's the whole look-if-these-idiots-can-make-it-no-reason-any-of-you-can't deal. I'm guessing The Lizard Queen here is one such idiot.
Time, money, and resources get spent on wild goose chases, based on some piece of bull, the torturee says to get them to leave him alone for a little.
... as her sick and twisted parents.
This rotten apple didn't fall far from the tree.
Why don't all these waterboarding advocates/apologists volunteer to undergo the "procedure"?
On edit: It was interesting (and infuriating)) how the New York Times recently ran an obituary of a World War II serviceman who was "tortured" by the Chinese. Many of the techniques used on him were the same as what we employed during the last administration. The Times uses the word "torture" when an American is the victim, but can't bring itself to use the word when describing the crimes of the Bush/Cheney Crime Syndicate.
American exceptionalism at its worst.
Liz is just telling us all how scared her pappy is of more inquiry into torture, and all it's applications, like paying off sock-puppet for being the front for Cheney's FASCIST COUP DE TAT in 2000.
..coup d'etat? What are you in school with W as the teacher?
Jeesh!
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Ah, a little Mel Brooks to bring it on home.
What about the coup de tit?
get her 15 minutes on the tube?
Wouldn't they know about as much about torture as this stupid bitch? If she wants to go on tv and spout off about how waterboarding isn't torture, put up or shut up. Let her volunteer to be waterboarded on tv, then maybe I'll give a shit about her opinion.
McCain's daughter.
At least she has to sense to see the GOP bus being driven off a cliff by an oxy-ed out Rush with Cheney backseat driving.
..doesn't make it so.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
Seems it does if you're a cheney.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Robinson should be ashamed of his weak, uninformed, milquetoast performance he gave there.
.."The fallacy lies in the fact that it is impossible for Cheney to prove that anti-terrorism methods within the bounds of U.S. law and tradition would have failed to prevent new attacks. Nor, for that matter, can Cheney demonstrate that torture and other abuses were particularly effective."
Then there's that whole "What is legal" question.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
If the VP got together with the joint chiefs and prez and offed someone in the oval office.
Could they now say "We all agreed that it was in a quasi legal gray area"?
"Murder is only murder if the bad guys do it"?
How about "The ends justified the means in killing this man."
So don't even have a trial?
This is the exact same thing. Except of course that Torture is considered worse than murder.
'The devil crept into Heaven, God overslept on the 7th, the New World Order was born on Sept 11th.' - Immortal Technique
How Americans Think About Torture - and Why
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
this is partial the reason why i don't believe there will be harsh prosecution. the HYPOthetical propaganda
they have been putting out there for a few years now is effective. they go to the hyothetical would you waterboard one person to find out about someone who could harm thousands.
Since when are settled questions of law, codified in domestic legislation, international legal codes, commonly accepted rules of war and diplomatic treaties signed decades ago, subject to interpretation by public polls??
Never mind the moral dimension of torture. It's AGAINST THE LAW.
I see the point about public ambivalence toward the use of torture in time of war - but the point is irrelevant. If a poll said it's OK to ignore anti-trust regulations, or endangered species laws, or constitutional protection against domestic spying without warrants (!!), does that in any way weaken these laws? Of course not.
Why do we waterboard our own soldiers?
To prepare them for what they should expect if they are captured and...tortured.
That's it. That's all you have to say when they bring it up. We dont just waterboard them for fun. It's torture and it's to prepare them for torture, so it's somewhat ironic to claim its not torture because we waterboard our own soldiers to prepare them for when they are tortured.
...Ugh my head hurts now.
i would add to that, the fact that the measures they are exposed to are to conducted to get FALSE confessions...
It started off with Joe on the telephone defending torture for 10 minutes and then we got her for 10 or 15 minutes. Then they brought on Eugene Robinson and he had to sit an listen to her. I am about done with this program. I guess I am going to have to do Morning Joe like FOX. Let someone watch and provide clips so I don't have to.
There are mornings when you can switch from Joe's show over to fox, and the conversation will be about the same subject and have the same tone.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
is awful most of the time. He is a sanctimonious asshole who can't get over himself "when he was in the senate....." I used to be able to take Mika, but she is trying so hard to be bipartisan that she now just gets on my nerves. Today's show is a prime example. Mika let that Cheney bitch go on and on without anyone calling her on her bullshit. All she did was talk over Eugene Robinson who could hardly get a point in. MSNBC needs to let Scarborough go the way of Tucker Carlson. If he wants to be on tv, go to Faux News where they'll appreciate it.
I could not agree with you more. Plus any grown woman on a show with men should never ever refer to herself as "mommy".
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Mika just agrees with whoever is talking
I've never seen one; what are they like?
Tried watching Joe but he's got his head way to far up his arse for me to think he has anything relevant to say.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
There is seldom anything of value in his shows. Mostly Joe is an ass and mika is along for the ride I guess. She hardly stands up for the liberal side of things. Last week or the one before she was raising hell about Miss California losing the Miss USA contest because according to Mika, they girl would have won had she not been against gay marriage. Even though the judges said the girl who did win was way ahead of Miss California in the points even before the question and answer part of the contest, Mika was demanding Donald Trump reverse the decision and give the crown to Miss California. Mika's a ditz.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Bottom line, after watching how incredibly incompetent the panel is in shutting down these "arguments" to justify how we treated detainees--even after the sickening facts have come out--I have come to the following conclusions:
a) No one will be tried
b) No one will be convicted
c) We will permanently lose our moral authority on the world stage
End of discussion.
Beware of anyone promising a future full of yesterdays.
just the business end of weapons.
I think the first half of this century isn't going to turn out much better then the last.
you are correct.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
only have one guy serve 4 months, and dozens and dozens of other documented war crimes including torture without a single General or politician even charged...
...I guess I shouldn't be surprised.
Beware of anyone promising a future full of yesterdays.
with people like you LETTING THEM!
submitting your case demand against Cheney et al. Right?
THAT is what we have a Department of Justice to do! Maybe in whatever country you're in that's how they do, private citizens have to bring court action before the courts will bring a criminal before them. But here in the US we have a criminal justice system that is SUPPOSED to do that for the citizens! Or at least we pay them to do it!
bring the ALL OUT. Let's put those memos to the test...IN OPEN COURT...and see if they stand up to precedent, to the tenets of law, domestic and international, which have clearly defined what is torture for decades and decades.
Let's see these brilliant gyrations of legal opinion...ALL of them. Not select pieces...ALL of them. Ohhhh...i forgot...revealing them would aid the terrorists...besides...the legal opinions were sound...LOL...riiiight.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
And the very legal opinions that the administration has released are in fact the documents that set out in great detail, this is what you can do, and this is what you can't do. If you cross this line, it becomes illegal. If you cross this line, it becomes torture. It was very, very clear. So I think it does a real disservice to the people who ran the program to equate it with robbing a bank or with criminal activity. You have to look at the very specific and important legal restrictions that were put in place. - bitch cheney
in other words, if the bush junta could find an unethical, compromised, mother-hating lawyer that would give them some legal protection for anything they would be protected no matter what they did. torture, illegal wars, warrantless wiretapping, murder, pedophilia, you name it. its like they moved the white house into int'l waters./
the nixonian flub has been updated, bush style: its not 'if the president does it its not illegal', it is 'if the president's lawyer says its legal then it is not illegal'.
will Liz finally marry a heterosexual turtle?
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
if Bill(O) the clown gets his way!
the only requirement is pre approval of the potential mate so the established order remains in tact.
I guess insidious scumbaggery runs in the family.
the rest of us are stuck on the receiving end.
Of course Liz Cheney believes in waterboarding...that's how Daddy Dick got her dates.
Okay, that's funny.....but did it work? I'm not sure even torture would be enough to get any guy to be around her for more than 15 minutes.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
http://www.garnersclassics.com/pics/2001/mono...
The fact that Liz Cheney, as a person with NO role in government, with no credentials or expertise on the topic at all, is allowed on the show and then dominate the air time by just talking continuously about misrepresentations is the most revealing thing about this on going "debate" in the media. The recruitment of unprepared people to act as the "counter point" to the leading "point" also shows the agenda. Why not have Jesse Ventura as the opposing view to Liz Cheney? or Jonathan Turley? or John Dean?
The truth is - you cannot rationalize or justify a crime based on the results of the outcome. Whether or not torture produced any results is completely beside the point.
There is no question that waterboarding, blindfolded 'walling', sleep depravation, etc. are torture. The idea that we do some of these techniques to trainee volunteers who have safe words and stop the treatment at any time somehow makes it not torture is preposterous.
The law is very clear, under Geneva Conventions and Anti Torture Treaty. Torture is a crime AND not prosecuting torturers is a crime.
The reason we waterboard our military is to prepare them to withstand TORTURE. These people are stupid liars.
WOW! The Cheney rotten apples don't fall too far from the tree. Everytime these uneducated Cheney nuts open their ignorant mouths it helps the Dem's causes and thankfully hurts the GOP.
Waterboarding? I could break her by making her sit in the middle seat in coach.
Why do they have this Cheney chick on a political talk show talking up torture??? Goes to show you that the "news" on these cable shows is really propaganda, perpetrated for the purpose of ratings. I think Dick is a scary sicko, his wife Lynn is one hard core c--- and his daughter Liz shows that the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. A family of disturbed, self-loathing sub-humans.
Woody McBreairty
She doesn't want her pappy to piss away her inheritance on legal fees over the next ten years!
liz cheney is exactly what happens
when there is too much inbreeding
in a family.....
Your Honor, this was not murder. My client does not murder.
This was a simple case of my client tightening his grip around Liz’s throat until she stopped breathing. There’s no way you can call this murder.
And besides, it was necessary.
Who knows how many people were saved from listening to Liz drone on incessantly? This enhanced neck message obviously saved countless lives, for as you can see, Liz did not kill anyone after she lost consciousness. Enhanced neck messages work.
-------
...Can't wait to hear this defense in a court-room.
Jeez, I just brought my dog in, turned on the tv and there was dick cheney on cavuto's show on fox. Cheneys are everywhere today. I'm seeing dick more these days than those shamwow commercials.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
He's trying to muddy the jury pool just in case there's a trial. He only needs one crackpot on the jury to see it his way.
Let's see how far to the right they go before they fall off of the edge of this flat world.
Positive proof that idiocy is hereditary.
She would be singing a different tune if her old man had served in Vietnam and had been captured and tortured. Oh, that's right, this little bundle from heaven was why he didn't serve.
Ask any WW2 Vet that survived a Japanese prison camp what he thinks of torture.
Democratic Party progressive, Vietnam veteran and proud Union member for 41 years
If the Founding Fathers were here it would look like that scene in Airplane with all of them lining up to smack this woman. Even Ben Franklin would be beating her with his cane.
They'd be pissed off at us as a whole for not doing anything about them. If it were up to them, my money would be every single member of the Bush admin would be tried for both treason and war crimes, and then sent to the gallows upon conviction.
Who asked this mentally retarded Cheney to appear on television? They should be shot in the face by her father.
.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
We tortured to keep us safe? No, we tortured to extract false confessions to justify invading Iraq. "The Mushroom Cloud"; "greeted as liberators"; Iraq's "involvement" in 9/11; "fixing intelligence" to justify the war; and other purposeful deceits were used to justify an unjustifiable war.
Just how were they going to "fix" the intelligence? Cherry picking was an obvious method. But so was reverse engineering a SERE program based on tactics used to extract false confessions from our pilots by the Chinese.
Yet the framing is always that we can't assume these criminals were doing anything "deliberately." "Surely they just didn't know that these were not intelligence gathering tactics. They were just mistaken. Of course, they were only trying to protect the country."
Nonsense, the trail is clear. Tactics used to extract false confessions were used by an administration that undeniably lied us into a war of their choosing. So why must we assume this was done for any other reason than to buttress their many other Iraq lies?
Oh, and, BTW, if this was so noble, why were so many tapes destroyed? Is it because they were filled with questions like: "Tell us about Saddam Hussein." or "How was Iraq involved?"
Corruption favors the wealthy.
though I think I said it first.
But I thought it first :)
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Maybe but you can't prove it.
Just give me some time to call W.
He can look into my soul.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Hey I paid off my mortgage with the money so it's no crime that I robbed the bank.
you would think that she would use this opportunity to finally come clean. now that her father? is persona non grata she could come clean about the years of abuse she suffered and try to fix herself, but noooo.
She's our next Sarah Palin and that gift ain't done givin for a long time!!
undisclosed location.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
The end most certainly does not justify the means. And how would Cheney's daughter know it's not torture? I imagine Dick was a strict father but I doubt he ever waterboarded her.
pissed on her head. Child abuse is not just for the less fortunate.
Do not, I repeat, do not lose sight of the meme that these Cheney administration people are setting Obama up for when, and I DO mean WHEN, there is a terrorist attack in the U.S. That is one of the main if not the main reason they are doing this. So that they can say "We told you so". I truly feel that they want an attack so that they can say I told you so!!! Fuckers!! I think that Obama and crew should be putting that out there so everybody will be prepared.
Not just to say 'I told you so' but to try to win back power. They seem to forget that 9/11 was on thier watch.
The Cheney's taught their children how to habitually lie really well.
to make her so smart? has she any bona fides?
Every god damn time these assholes say "waterboarding is not torture" they need to be told that it is torture. Period. No debating it. No arguing about it. No maybe! Just say, "You are wrong, WATERBOARDING IS TORTURE" and give three examples of why we know it is. Waterboarding was torture during the Spanish Inquisition, it was torture when Pol Pot did it, and it was torture when WE executed the Japanese for doing it!!! That's all. Let them try to debate that point.
for no good reason?
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
It wasn't execution. They just fell off the stool while they had a noose around their neck. Or they got in the way of a bullet someone fired. See? I'm getting the hang of Cheney speak.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
For someone so sensitive about the word "retards" it is surprising that you like to use a racial slur when refering Japanese people.
Let's see how far to the right they go before they fall off of the edge of this flat world.
Of course it’s torture.
Now the rest of the story…
Let’s assume, in arguendo, that it is not. That it’s just enhanced interrogation.
Who gets to decide if and when these techniques are applied?
According to US Law, every one of those interrogated was innocent, because none were ever found guilty of any crime (innocent until proved and all that).
So they were just interrogated – legaly? Then anyone, anywhere, accused of any crime could therefore be “interrogated” in this manner – since the legal memos found it was not illegal. This would not only apply to FBI, CIA, and the military contractors in foreign
countries, but also for Sheriff Jim-Bob-Billy-Rae in MS.
Accused of drug-trafficking? Let’s find out fer sure – waterboard.
Accused of shop-lifting? Let’s get to the truth fast – waterboard.
Driving while black? “Not in mah countee!” – Waterboard.
----
This is the rest of the story. If these people can justify this crime in one scenario as legal, then it’s just as easy in any other.
Who decides?
This has to be one of the most infuriating clips I have seen in quite some time. I get that she is trying to help Papa Cheney’s horrendous image right now, but she really needs to come to the metaphorical battle field with more than just worthless talking points, worn out arguments, and hypothetical nonsense.
http://progressnotcongress.org/blog/?p=944
. . . f@!!% question to shut her up? This whole "24" scenario, where torture apologists argue ask, "Would you waterboard to prevent imminent harm to your family? Would you? Huh? Huh?!!" is a strawman. The counter is, "No, and here's why -- I know he's going to lie to me. If the ticking time bomb is set to go off at midnight, and it's 11:55, all the suspect has to do is keep lying to me for five minutes. We can't read his mind to determine whether what he's saying is actually true or not."
Oh, but wait, that doesn't matter, because the apologists are not interested in the truth; they were interested in illiciting confessions concerning non-existent links between Iraq and Bin Laden.
As a side note, Liz Cheney was the person who recommended Kyle Sampson -- who worked to fire those who weren't "loyal Bushies" -- to Alberto Gonzalez. Why her opinion matters only MSNBC knows. . . .
they have made water boarding the topic and torture method, as if there were no other forms of torture approved and carried out by the torturers. Hannity never agreed to have his head slammed repeatedly into a wall, stripped naked and kept in a cold cell deprived off sleep for days and mocked by female guards, forced into stress positions for hours and hours, and punched in the head.
I love to see Mr. Robinson, but I can't stand MJ anymore....they just talk over everyone whom they disagree with...
Sadly, you won't see Ventura or O'Donnell on MJ...or Washington Journal either. I have not watched that one for a long time, and I'm sure I have missed seeing those I would love to...
I do wish O'Donnell would bring up that point about 'obviously it's TORTURE if it is the US personnel suffering it...but it's NOT Torture if we inflict it on anyone else.
So sick of these wingnuts.
Given her parents no surprise that she is also a warped minded double talking freak .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
What a horrible woman.
But no, no surprise that the big old devil Dick would spawn a lesser she-devil, although with potential for equal amounts of evil as the years go by, it seems.
I wonder if there will be some sort of satanic ritual involved in the end, where she has to kill her father with her own hands to attain all his dark powers, and make the old man go out with a proud, blood stained glee on his face, knowing that the heritage will go on. I'd say there probably is.
.
Dear Liz Cheney,
If it wasn't for your daddy, you'd be out of work. But thankfully for his gratitude, you're nothing but a high end welfare queen. Congrats.
Now, about the ends justify the means...
... Hitler gave good speeches, too.
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
.
Dear Liz Cheney,
I suppose if we took you son and crushed his testicles and placed him into a box with scorpions, that would be O.K...?
... Because we all know it's not torture when America does it, YES?
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
i almost drowned when i was a child. it's horrible. your lungs fill with water and you choke and you pass out in terrible pain and panic.
i hate liz cheney for what she's doing in enabling her crininal father's efforts to drown our pows in contravention of the geneva accords. as far as i'm concerned she's a war criminal too.
That's fear.
I didn't realize that anyone with a law degree could write permission slips for committing crimes!
Are these people kidding? Do they actually think that excuse flies? They 'got a note' from some anonymous putz?
Oh boy oh boy, I'm gonna have fun as soon as finish law school and get my Juris Doctris.
"But your honor, I wrote up this memo here saying it's ok to drive 3 times over the legal limit as long as you killed less than 12 people, and I only killed two families of 4 and three other random!"
By these criminal's logic, that would be an acceptable argument.
.
Liz Cheney thinks I, too, can hire a lackey lawyer to write a memo authorizing me to drink and drive, as long as I'm responsible, and if I hit and kill someone, it's O.K. with her because I had a lawyer's say so?
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
.
Liz Cheney's line of logic dictates that because we crash test cars, car accidents are acceptable, even if they kill, as long as you are responsible enough to have a lawyer's authorization to hit and run.
or, or, or...
Robing a bank is acceptable if I pay my bills with the loot, and have a lawyers authorization saying so.
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
.
Q U E S T I O N:
Which came first...
... The memos, the request for the memos, or the torture?
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
.
Q U E S T I O N:
How legal can a memo be if it instructs it's client on how to violate the law?
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
Liz even has the trademark Cheney sneer. It was good to see the panel firing back at her.
Mike Barnicle's body language of complete exasperation was priceless.
... to me was when asked, Cheney said that he knew things Bush didn't. I mean really big things like the decision to torture. Yeah, he came right out and admitted it. Of course, he said Bush SIGNED the paperwork, but made sure to let us know that HE made the decision and pretty much said Bush didn't know about it. (I forget if this was the Schieffer interview, or the Fox one.)
Cheney visited the CIA an unprecedented amount of times. Google it.
The lying liar fucker.
The very fact that the Right has to trot her out is clear evidence that they are losing the argument re: waterboarding.
Wonder if she'd be willing to join Hannity and show us what a walk in the park it would be?
If you cross this line, it becomes illegal. If you cross this line, it becomes torture.
What "line" would that be, Liz, since you seem to be so well informed about the entire enhanced interrogation program?
If the person being waterboarded survives, it's not torture.
If he dies, then it is torture.
???
spent on redefining 'torture.'
Many have already commented that it's obvious the war criminals are sweatin' bullets. Trotting out Liz is just like putting up a flashing neon sign: "Guilty! Guilty! Guilty!"
If we don't prosecute these war criminals, we are complicit in their crimes. We the People SHOULD NOT REST UNTIL THEY ARE TRIED FOR THEIR CRIMES!!!!!!
I didn't get the memo.Liz Chaney is an expert on torture and American history?? Who knew?? I gots to get me one of those fancy talking-head jobs.Seems they'll hire anybody these days.
What exactly makes Liz believe she is some sort of authority or expert in this matter. having an opinion, sure. Trying to keep her sugar daddy out of prison, perhaps?
What next, will they children of the corn come out to tell us their opinion too?
And Liz, They allow family to visit inmates in prison. It will be like one of his undisclosed locations.
Grab these people that are for waterboarding and waterboard them!
They would change their minds just like Christopher Hitchens did in a matter of seconds!
Liz and her daddy are just lying cowards!!!
Before 911 that binladen was going to use planes to crash into buildings and bush/chenny did nothing!
That is why they over compensated and started doing all this crazy shit!
Well they were already crazy and 911 gave them the excuse to use their crazyness!
Now they are just lying cowards trying to protect their asses.
I've got a plan to shortchange the government on my taxes. When anyone has the temerity to question my action, I'll send out my 25 year old daughter to justify everything...end of story.
Man, am I brilliant, or what?
Hello ... Liz wing nut Cheney. You flying monkey nut case ... people were brutally beaten, starved, left in their own waste and yes you putrid faced liar ... they were murdered. They beat one guy so bad his leg was pulpified. Do you have any idea what that means ... It means the leg would never heal it would have had to be amputated if the guy lived ... Your nothing but a sick weak filthy human being just like your father. The Cheney's are bad seeds every one of them. Just like the Bush's.
Sorry but I just have to say it ... Liz Cheney is a piece of crap. These bastards are more than just criminals. They are morally bankrupt. They are directly responsible for thousands and thousands of deaths a huge amount of them innocent. Why did we start two wars ... for revenge and profit. They lied to us about 911 .... if you have the courage to look at the facts you'll know they lied about that to. Cheney and Bush and all their propaganda ministers are guilty of crimes against humanity. They all deserve the same fate they gave Saddam.
Sure don't fall from the tree, does it.
Until one of these sadists actually gives specific examples backing up their claims of we torture (oh I'm sorry, we enhance our interrogation), terrorists didn't attack, therefore torture works; is no different than me saying I'm training in iaido, I've never been robbed, therefore if you train in iaido you'll never get robbed. You can't get more blatant an example of false cause than that.
Hell at least even Adolf Hitler's sister didn't try to defend him. A member of the Hitler family, Adolf's sibling no less, has more integrity and fortitude then to try to defend someone like Adolf.
Oh an ends justify the means? So if I were to nuke a city based on a rumor that Bin Laden was there buying fruit or something, that would be ok? This is yet another bitch who would be more than happy to burn what's left of the Constitution in the name of "national security" and I'm sure most of us know how Ben Franklin feels about people like that.
If she's as much human filth as her father. The entire Cheney family ought to be exiled to Antarctica, but I don't think the penguins would want them either.
These hate filled Christian terrorists and traitors hate everything America supposedly stands for.
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