Nazis in the military: 'I'm so proud of my kills'
By David Neiwert Sunday Dec 14, 2008 12:00pm
[Shawn Stuart, Iraq War veteran, at a 2006 neo-Nazi rally in Olympia, WA.]
Two years ago, the Southern Poverty Law Center ran a devastating report describing the infiltration of neo-Nazis into the ranks of the American military. The Pentagon's official response was steadfast denial of the problem.
The SPLC's David Holthouse just published a follow-up report, and found, predictably, that the problem is getting worse as the conflict in Iraq drags on:
A new FBI report confirms that white supremacists are infiltrating the military for several reasons. According to the unclassified FBI Intelligence Assessment, "White Supremacist Recruitment of Military Personnel Since 9/11," which was released to law enforcement agencies nationwide: "Sensitive and reliable source reporting indicates supremacist leaders are encouraging followers who lack documented histories of neo-Nazi activity and overt racist insignia such as tattoos to infiltrate the military as 'ghost skins,' in order to recruit and receive training for the benefit of the extremist movement."
The FBI report details more than a dozen investigative findings and criminal cases involving Iraq and Afghanistan veterans as well as active-duty personnel engaging in extremist activity in recent years. For example, in September 2006, the leader of the Celtic Knights, a central Texas splinter faction of the Hammerskins, a national racist skinhead organization, planned to obtain firearms and explosives from an active duty Army soldier in Fort Hood, Texas. That soldier, who served in Iraq in 2006 and 2007, was a member of the National Alliance, a neo-Nazi group.
I observed at the time that one of the uglier aspects of the presence of neo-Nazis in Iraq would be the behavior of American soldiers among civilians there:
As Atrios notes, the SPLC report raises immediate questions about the kind of men we're sending over to Iraq. To what extent, really, does the spread of white-supremacist attitudes in the military bring about atrocities like the recent murder of a 14-year-old girl and her family, or the Haditha massacre? It isn't hard to see, after all, attitudes about the disposability of nonwhite races rearing their ugly head in those incidents.
Sure enough, as Holthouse reports:
Earlier this year, the founder of White Military Men identified himself in his New Saxon account as "Lance Corporal Burton" of the 2nd Battalion Fox Company Pit 2097, from Florida, according to a master's thesis by graduate student Matthew Kennard. Under his "About Me" section, Burton writes: "Love to shoot my M16A2 service rifle effectively at the Hachies (Iraqis)," and, "Love to watch things blow up (Hachies House)."
Kennard, who was working on his thesis for Columbia University's Toni Stabile Center for Investigative Journalism, also monitored claims of active-duty military service earlier this year on the neo-Nazi online forum Blood & Honour, where "88Soldier88" posted this message on Feb. 18: "I am in the ARMY right now. I work in the Detainee Holding Area [in Iraq]. … I am in this until 2013. I am in the infantry but want to go to SF [Special Forces]. Hopefully the training will prepare me for what I hope is to come."
One of the Blood & Honour members claiming to be an active-duty soldier taking part in combat operations in Iraq identified himself to Kennard as Jacob Berg. He did not disclose his rank or branch of service. "There are actually a lot more 'skinheads,' 'nazis,' white supremacists now [in the military] than there has been in a long time," Berg wrote in an E-mail exchange with Kennard. "Us racists are actually getting into the military a lot now because if we don't every one who already is [in the military] will take pity on killing sand niggers. Yes I have killed women, yes I have killed children and yes I have killed older people. But the biggest reason I'm so proud of my kills is because by killing a brown many white people will live to see a new dawn."
The July 2006 report by the SPLC found this infiltration occurring at an alarming rate. Neo-Nazis "stretch across all branches of service, they are linking up across the branches once they're inside, and they are hard-core," Department of Defense gang detective Scott Barfield told the SPLC. "We've got Aryan Nations graffiti in Baghdad," he added. "That's a problem."
The source of the problem, as the report explained, was the extreme pressure military recruiters were under to fill their recruitment quotas. "Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces," said Barfield, "and commanders don’t remove them . . . even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members." The military downplayed a neo-Nazi presence in the ranks, Barfield added, "because then parents who are already worried about their kids signing up and dying in Iraq are going to be even more reluctant about their kids enlisting if they feel they’ll be exposed to gangs and white supremacists."
One of the noteworthy aspects of this phenomenon is the increasingly military style of the Far Right in recent years, particularly the militias in the 1990s, who openly recruited veterans and current military members. The two cultures have become increasingly enmeshed, as embodied by Steven Barry's recruitment plan for neo-Nazis considering a military career as a way to sharpen their "warrior" skills.
The FBI's assessment in the "White Supremacist Recruitment of Military Personnel Since 9/11" report found that the numbers of identifiable neo-Nazis within the ranks was quite small (only a little over 200), but warned:
Although individuals with military backgrounds constitute a small percentage of white supremacist extremists, they frequently occupy leadership roles within extremist groups and their involvement has the potential to reinvigorate an extremist movement suffering from loss of leadership and in-fighting during the post-9/11 period.
Looking ahead, current and former military personnel belonging to white supremacist extremist organizations who experience frustration at the inability of these organizations to achieve their goals may choose to found new, more operationally minded and operationally capable groups. The military training veterans bring to the movement and their potential to pass this training on to others can increase the ability of lone offenders to carry out violence from the movement’s fringes.
Military experience—ranging from failure at basic training to success in special operations forces—is found throughout the white supremacist extremist movement. FBI reporting indicates extremist leaders have historically favored recruiting active and former military personnel for their knowledge of firearms, explosives, and tactical skills and their access to weapons and intelligence in preparation for an anticipated war against the federal government, Jews, and people of color.
... The prestige which the extremist movement bestows upon members with military experience grants them the potential for influence beyond their numbers. Most extremist groups have some members with military experience, and those with military experience often hold positions of authority within the groups to which they belong.
... Military experience—often regardless of its length or type—distinguishes one within the extremist movement. While those with military backgrounds constitute a small percentage of white supremacist extremists, FBI investigations indicate they frequently have higher profiles within the movement, including recruitment and leadership roles.
... New groups led or significantly populated by military veterans could very likely pursue more operationally minded agendas with greater tactical confidence. In addition, the military training veterans bring to the movement and their potential to pass this training on to others can increase the ability of lone offenders to carry out violence from the movement’s fringes.
This problem doesn’t involve only the Nazis, gang-bangers, and other violent personalities worming their way into the military. It also affects the many more formerly normal, non-racist recruits who have been dragged into multiple tours of duty in Iraq, regardless of the psychological dangers of such treatment. This includes many people whose evaluations have recommended they not be returned for duty but have been sent back regardless. Thus the Timothy McVeigh Finishing School continues to operate.
This has the deadly potential to become a significant component of the predictable surge in far-right activity likely to manifest itself in the United States in the coming months and years, especially as Democrats and liberals expand their hold on power. We run the risk of re-creating the conditions that arose in Germany and Italy after World War I: the presence of scores of angry, disaffected, and psychologically damaged war veterans, fed a steady diet of "Dolchstosslegende," poised to organize into a political force aimed at "rebirthing" the nation and its heritage.
In our current situation, these veterans not only will have served with neo-Nazis amid their ranks, they will likely be faced with unemployment and a wrecked economy, eager for someone to blame and fully trained and capable of violent action.
SPLC Chief Counsel Richard Cohen has written another letter to the Defense Secretary pleading that the DoD take concrete steps to deal with this problem. Here's hoping he produces something other than denial this time.








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...since we currently have Nazis in the White House.
The Republican seeds of hate and bigotry are bearing fruit in our military.
Fruits? don't ask - don't tell
You're an ass, gone bald.
Well Gov Palin's seed is getting further training in the military. You betcha that she is proud to pass a racists ways on to the rest of her state and country if she could. Such hate filled people. They are suppose to believe in god. I don't think god would be proud of them.
The question becomes one of these:
Was the loosening of restrictions for applicants done out of incompetence, out of sheer stupidity and no thought for the consequences?
Was the loosening of restrictions for applicants done out of need for sheer numbers to occupy, without concern for the effects that lowlife reichwingers would cause?
Was the loosening of restrictions for applicants done as a deliberate act, knowing the lowlife reichwingers would be allowed to enter and get military training?
Regardless of which, George Putz and the neo-KKKlowns got their wish.
Oy vay
There is Blackwater.
Lots of place for those people to go.
sort of under the radar if they can. I can understand that much, but what I can't understand is when they are found out, why are they allowed to stay in the military.
Obama is going to have to deal with this pronto. The military must be very corrupt to let this go on and on. Hell, we may be fighting a civil war with these fuckers. Better to shut them all down and see them in the federal pen.
First, there has been a much larger gang presence in the military since the 80's. That strikes me as the foremost problem in this arena and the one that should be dealt with first.
Second, while I was never in the service myself, every friend or family member that's ever been through basic training comes back with the obligatory story about an avowed racist in their boot class who was then deliberately put into a squad with all minority recruits and publicly shamed for putting themselves before the service.
There's so much more implicit racism in the US that is so much more harmful than some under-educated Hitler worshipers.
Why do you distinguish between "White" supremacist gangs and other gangs? On what basis do you claim that the criminal actions of some gangs are worse or more widespread than the criminal actions of "White" supremacist gangs?
The Aryan Brotherhood, White Aryan Resistance (WAR), National Alliance, Hammerskins, KKK & American Front (among others), are gangs. Full stop.
Perhaps you could read "Blood In The Face," or the voluminous work of the Southern Poverty Law Center before you make false assumptions. Otherwise, it's not skepticism, it's naive ignorance.
Both Prescott Bush and Arnold Schwarzenegger have ties to the Nazi past. We brought a lot of Nazi's over here after WWII unfortunately. I think it was known as Operation Paperclip. This is a problem we should keep our eye on as the new press or media in America.
How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power
Rumours of a link between the US first family and the Nazi war machine have circulated for decades. Now the [UK] Guardian can reveal how repercussions of events that culminated in action under the Trading with the Enemy Act are still being felt by today's president
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2004/sep/25/u...
Thanks for the report.
I thought Operation Paperclip was just the one where we flew their best scientists out to work for us. Am I mistaken?
Don't forget there wasn't just Operation Paperclip. In fact, I seriously doubt the US government was going to allow those Nazi scientists out of their sight, so I seriously doubt that is a root cause of this problem. The Nazis had an extensive network to help get them out as Germany fell. ODESSA and something that sounded like Der Spinner were two of them. The Catholic Church also helped get Nazis out of Germany as well. (Will someone explain to me why we still tolerate the Catholic Church on our soil? Thanks.)
Adam, do you mind if I ask what your "religious" affiliation is? Thank you for your time.
Recovering Catholic. I'm recovering from being Catholic. Is this relevant?
Thank you for the reply, though it does not answer my question in all honesty. Thank you anyway. :-)
Shouldn't you be challenging him on the facts or asking for his source rather then striving for irrelevancy?
Thassa my job.
What religion does the US not tolerate?
Atheism.
Allow me to be more specific then. I once was a Catholic. (My mother's side is Italian-American.) I am no longer one. I guess you could say I am agnostic. I believe in the potential for a God (or gods), but that god must prove its existence in accordance with scientific principles.
I believe I have several legitimate beefs with the way the Catholic Church has behaved in recent decades. I don't like the fact that the Catholic Church (The organization, not the worshipers) helped Nazis escape. Nor do I like the fact that they interfere in our policy discussions by making politicians fear for their souls. ("If you vote pro-choice, you cannot receive Communion".) I mean, you had Bishops going out and saying that voting for Obama is a mortal sin that could prevent you from receiving Holy Communion. These are actions that should have, at the very least, resulted in revocation of their tax exempt status.
Maybe "Tolerate on our soil" was a bit extreme. For that, I apologize. But I see no issue with saying that if they are going to interfere in our political processes then they should have to pay the financial price in taxation.
I am an atheist, if you are curious? So you guess you are an agnostic, "I guess you could say I am agnostic."? Thank you for your honesty. I just thought it was inappropriate and or a mistake to identify Catholics' as a whole in your post above. RE:"(Will someone explain to me why we still tolerate the Catholic Church on our soil? Thanks.)". It's just that I believe it is a mistake to sweep up a whole group of people, when it is a certain segment of that group that is most likely to blame. You just may mistakenly injure the innocent? That is just my opinion.Thank you for your time and honesty.
about Catholics; he asked about the Catholic Church. There's a difference, particularly as a lot of American Catholics either disregard or dispute Church teachings on several important subjects, like birth control, homosexuality, the molester scandals, etc.
It's also germane that the Catholic Church is absolutely a political organization, and one that in the past has generally leaned, to various degrees, to the right, ie, the Church's support for Franco during the Spanish Civil War and JPII's stifling of Liberation Theology.
I have nothing to back this up, but I have felt that with Obama and Democratic leadership in charge again, we will also see a resurgence in militia groups like those who bombed Oklahoma City during the Clinton years. Because Republicans base their actions on fear, they use scare tactics and people's anxiety to make them afraid of Democrats and convince them that they are going to destroy the simple, Christian way of life.
In turn, a few crazy nuts will take those fears to heart, and elevate them to where they feel the only way to stop the destruction of their "Christian American Values" is by taking the law into their own hands. I think that police agencies need to be more vigilant for signs of these hate/fear groups and to keep them from spreading during these hard economic times (which are going to blamed on Obama, instead of the incompetent Bush Administration).
However, Let's have these groups watched without violating their Constitutional rights though, ok? We've already seen enough wire-tapping, spying and other illegal activities by our government, and how has that worked out?
The Southern Poverty Law Center mentioned in the article has actually documented an increase in racist hate crimes since Obama was elected, and that's above and beyond the astronomical increase in attacks on brown-skinned immigrants that's been seen in recent years. If you go to their website and look at their "Hate Incidents" link, you'll see some examples.
Police agencies do need to be more serious about tackling these problems, and part of that would be to first remove from their ranks right-wingers and white racists, which will be very difficult since the profession attracts those types.
We've done virtually nothing to stop this madness and we are reaping what we have sown by our insufficient action.
and when they attack innocent civilians (or carry out an attack in the US) no one will call them terrorists.
Similar to Palin's refusal to call terrorists those people who bomb abortion clinics.
prescott boosh must be so proud of his grandson
Without going into detail, what is it that stifles and terminates honest and sincere communication?
Off-topic questions.
The nazis aren't just in the Army. They're running the show.
These professed enemies to what America is supposed to be are a risk to our national security, and they should be removed.
Don't Ask Don't Tell resulted in the removal of more gays from the military than the previous policy. Why apply it to a group that is not a national security risk, and why not apply it to a lifestyle choice that is?
I wish they stepped in front of the veterans who lost their friends and body parts in that war and throw out a "heil hitler"
Dishonor to the flag, they should be shot like the traitors they are.
And there are many others in the US military who feel the same way but aren't members of organized neo-Nazi groups. They are encouraged to see the Iraqi population as the enemy and inferior.
And there are a large number of members of the US military who are not considered neo-Nazis but who do believe that slaughtering Moslems is part of their Christian duty.
And many of these people will return to the US and become police officers and prison guards and work other forms of "security" jobs, helping continue the delightful US trend of nonthreatening black and brown people getting murdered, maimed, and imprisoned in disproportionate numbers.
And the most reliable, most recent estimates are that at least 1.3 million Iraqis have been murdered, the vast majority by direct US attacks. And their country is so devastated by the US attack that it has triggered the largest refugee flight in the history of the region.
Meanwhile in the US, the military is still considered sacrosanct and people excitedly tune in to cop TV shows and movies.
In the lat 80s early 90's the military responded with programs to eradicate eliminate, and educate soldiers about gangs and extremists in the military. Besides Time MCviegh and associates, there were also the murder of minorities that occured down at Ft Bragg, and the killing of gay soldiers.
So the problem is not new.
I would prefer if folks reported trends to see if the origrams need to be improved, or better enforced.
Otherwise some could interpret this article as indicting all folk in the military.
There are a lot of Christian Dominionists in the military, especially in the Pentagon. Fundamentalist officer-teachers are rife at the Air Force Academy. A great majority of officers vote Republican, and for an officer to make it known that he's liberal is to invite career suicide. It's also relevant that the military is one of the five professions that attract (and promote) sociopaths. These things bother me more than bonehead pseudo-Nazis. However, it worries me that with all the president's contact with the military, racist soldiers will get closer to Obama, while armed, than most civilians. There's not enough of these racists to be a real threat to the US, but they could certainly do a lot of damage as saboteurs and terrorists. I worry more about the christo-fascist officers.
As for Blackwater, I saw some footage of Blackwater mercs under fire. One of them shouted a reference to the insurgents as "nxxxxxs". So the racist culture's there. And have you ever seen an American Blackwater merc who's not lily-white?
"Why do you distinguish between "White" supremacist gangs and other gangs?"
Because not all gangs are racially motivated. And not all gangs follow a philosophy that was active just 50 years ago & nearly successful in eradicating a race of people.
Many gangs are formed out of necessity, economic disadvantages, dangerous neighborhoods,... no one ever forces someone to become white power. Most gangs have an agenda that involves survival, & rarely extends outside of the gang itself. You certainly would never see gang members in office, like David Duke or Pat Buchannan were.
If you can't see the difference between an organization like the National Front & some gangbanging vatos, well that's pretty ignorant.
I can't tell, but if you are then you apparently didn't read the comment from "Badass Bard" that I was replying to.
Badass Bard asserted that the military should be more concerned about gangs than White supremacists, thus drawing a false dichotomy and elevating the potential threat of gangbangers over White supremacists.
I was pointing out that:
1. This is a false dichotomy - the White supremacist groups I listed, along with many others all over the world, are gangs. Some gangs are in service to political parties while others aren't. Some gangs are united by a common ideology while others aren't. Politics & ideology are not necessarily the defining characteristics of a gang, but gangs which DO form around racist ideologies are, in my opinion, the greater threat.
2. I am of the firm belief that White supremacist gangs are far more dangerous than the garden-variety gangbangers you speak of. Perhaps I didn't state it clearly enough in my first comment, but I thought that my final paragraph made it clear.
I'm a student of history. Notice I mentioned Ridgeway's, "Blood In The Face," a comprehensive history of White supremacist gangs and groups in America. So, yes, I know the very real menace of thuggery in service to racist ideology. After all, the NSDAP (who modern American fascists model themselves after), started out as little more than a gang of thugs, criminals & disaffected nationalistic WWI veterans.
If you were actually replying to Badass Bard, well, cheers!
gangs are about social cohesion, protection, domination, and business.
Its easy to define them along a political ideology, race, or religion.
What they have in common is they are willing and ready to operate outside a governments laws' and social norms using violence as a tool to achieve their agenda.
Al rukan, 8th street latinos, LaRaza, meet storm front.
They are similiar, to deny it suggest naivete about the gang culture.
try prison sometime.
I admire your broad perspective and as well, would recommend same.
that the U.S. Navy takes matters like this VERY seriously.
As a former Sailor and current U.S. civil servant who works on a military base, I have seen white supremacy tattoos and gang tattoos but am very aware of the fact, that at a lower and more personal level, these things are monitored and policed.
I cannot speak for the other services, but I firmly believe the Navy has this problem under control.
Good for you. Though I can not speak of the current, I will concur regarding my past.
Great Lakes, Orlando, Groton, Orlando and Goose Creek :-P TMT3 "HIT THE BEACH"!
See: Service background of "Blackwater® defendants" [ http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081208/ap_on_go_... ]
(The guards are Donald Ball, a former Marine from West Valley City, Utah; Dustin Heard, a former Marine from Knoxville, Tenn.; Evan Liberty, a former Marine from Rochester, N.H.; Nick Slatten, a former Army sergeant from Sparta, Tenn., and Paul Slough, an Army veteran from Keller, Texas.) "For reference purposes only"
It's the crips, the bloods, the ms13, and other gangs are all sending members to the military, to learn stuff, and then come back and train the gang memebers.
It ain't good.
...
Give the good ol' Military a proper pruning back to the ground...cut its budget by 99%
That way we can focus on QUALITY over QUANTITY...
Heck.. At the very least the BB gun should be put away for a few months after you have shot out all the neighborhoods windows, and pets...
Its time to rethink this entire mindset.
Ok folks, whenever you PROLONG A FRIGGEN WAR you offer opportunity for sub-cells to grow within the military. With the military supremacy of the US Military, we should only be engaged in a war of this stature 24 months. It gets the job done and limits the opportunities for growing "sub-armies". It's a fact Los Angeles gang members (Crips and Bloods..and surely, east coast gang members too) joined the military to come back with either an offensive or defensive education. They have been known to "tag" some of the inferior Haliburton built buildings in Iraq. But, since Bush has censored our press in Iraq, the American public can't see "what kind of subculture" is growing inside our military.
Dudes, I assure you there are Klansmen, Minute Men, Zanies, Nazi's,Crips,Bloods,Panthers and more in this 7 year old war. IT'S ONLY NATURAL FOR THIS TO OCCUR! These wars are just taking "too damn long to finish-off"...America's Military is much better than this. Why is it taking too long? And by it taking SO LONG we are building a whole bunch of brand new GI JOES to put on the civilian streets amongst us.
PS Contrary to public belief, it's obvious: America is a very racist country. Go drink with a redneck, or a gangster. You'll find out! GET OUT OF AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ!
The SPLC is calling this "infiltration." How ironic. The fact is that every baby killer that stepped foot in Iraq is a neo-Nazi at heart, every one of which who need to be dragged in front of a fair trial and then be dragged in front of a firing squad.
Sir or Ma'am,
I have never killed a baby and would never do so. While I have killed people who tried to kill me first. Please believe that not all of us over there are jackasses. I follow the Rules of Engagement. Please rethink your attitude.
Pardon the blogwhoring, but these bastards destroyed the Canadian Airborne:
http://politecompany.blogspot.com/2007/11/har...
By the time who was in the supposedly elite unit was revealed to the public, disaster had already struck.
This is actually funny to those who are in the Army Infantry. The people who go around bragging about their kills and be proud of it are usually POGs and people who have never even fired a weapon in combat. The M16/A2 is no longer used by any Infantry Unit I know of, and hasnt been used for about five years. Please do not give credit to this stories and the people who write them.
This is a very thin story. References are apocryphal or unsubstantiated, or anecdotal at best. Of course there is skinhead grafitti in baghdad. What does that prove. It would take a very substantial number of "skinheads" to create a proportion that exceeds statistical zero.
Also, loaded terms: infiltrated, for example. I don't think that means what you think it means. I'm sure that somewhere in Iraq is a soldier who joined the military because he was sent or whatever, but that imputes an improbable amount of foresight and planning to a cohort of people who are not noted for those virtues. They are in fact at best a loose affiliation of like-minded people who, armed well enough and left alone by undercover feds, are far more likely to assassinate each other in internecine squabbles than they are to mount some kind of organized threat to anything more substantial than a Dairy Queen. Panty-bunching about their complex conspiracies is pure gravy PR for those of the fringe who feed off of PR.
Also this story ignores the much greater consequence of the Iraq war, a universal experience of war that effectively masks any conspiracy of mole-planting. The necessary raw material for war matches fairly well with the recruiting base for any number of gangs, but it also matches up with the largest gang of them all: young men (and a few women) who are disillusioned, dehumanized, under-educated, and sent out into the world with a charismatic evangelical exceptionalist worldview ornamented with videogame scenarios and imagery from the "Left Behind" series. Given those conditions its amazing that there are fewer Haditha massacres. The futility and ugliness of the war isn't any different from any other war (in fact, a fair amount better). The tendency to view the enemy and the civilians together is the same. The overwhelmingly foreign experience of the place--heat, garbage, poverty, etc.--is somewhat better, due to the modern conveniences of a KBR war with e-mail and Sara Lee and AC, but still demoralizing and alien. Raise them on video games and Deuteronomy, Parris Island them, arm them well, and send them to a shithole where the enemy is seldom visible. In that situation, not too many of the commenters here are likely to make much headway discerning a sure-enough skinhead from a regular GI--and I don't blame them one bit.
Furthermore, all this outrage reminds me of the right-wing nutjobs howling about Bill Ayers and Obama bin Laden. Our nation is quite capable of absorbing any number of skinheads. If we don't let law enforcement get bent around the political notion of chasing skinheads, we won't make the mistake of the Bush administration, who let politics bend their ability to find terrorists, and as a result found a lot of terrorists who were just regular folks exercising their rights to be a pain in the ass but no particular danger. I've known a few of these characters, and they were pussies who'd found a seam of histrionic fear in the American culture, and had crawled up in it to enjoy themselves.
A non-story, not worth the hand-wringing, just like the pathetic git who named his kid Adolf Hitler, the walking, talking manifestation of the other side of the Arg ad Hitlerium. Find something more constructive to weep about.
ice
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