It's the new political correctness, I gather, not to ever suggest that anyone who's ever served in the military is ever capable posing a threat to law-enforcement officers or the general public. That was the whole upshot of the recent fake controversy over the DHS report on domestic terrorism.
In the meantime, what do you know: Yet another shooting of police officers by an angry and paranoid man with a military background. And just like the last one, this one believed Obama was going to come get his guns:
On Sunday, lawmen still were investigating why Joshua Cartwright, a 28-year-old U.S. Army Reserve soldier with a history of violence, killed Okaloosa County sheriff's deputies Burt Lopez and Warren "Skip" York at a gun range in Crestview.
A few minutes after he killed the deputies, Cartwright was himself killed in a shootout with lawmen in DeFuniak Springs.
"None of it's logical, none of it makes sense," said interim Sheriff Ed Spooner on Sunday. "He'd obviously just got something else in his mind."
An offense report filed against Cartwright the day he died outlines an angry husband who threatened his wife, kept guns and knives on hand, was "severely disturbed" that Barack Obama had been elected president, and believed the U.S. government was conspiring against him.
Here's the incident report. Towards the end, this observation is included:
While we were waiting Cartwright told me that her husband believed the U.S. Government was conspiring against him. She said he had been severely disturbed that Barack Obama had been elected President.
The extent of Cartwright's military background is yet unclear:
In November, when authorities arrested Cartwright for domestic battery, they listed his employer as the US Army Reserves. But Spooner said Cartwright was a member of a Florida National Guard unit based in Crestview. He said Cartwright also was interested in militia groups and weapons training.
Spooner said he did not believe Cartwright was a war veteran, but that investigators are continuing to check his background.
Now, let's go back again to the wording of that DHS bulletin:
DHS/I&A assesses that lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent rightwing extremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States. Information from law enforcement and nongovernmental organizations indicates lone wolves and small terrorist cells have shown intent—and, in some cases, the capability—to commit violent acts.
... (U//FOUO) Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities.
Remember what that bulletin was intended for? To give law-enforcement officers in the field a heads-up about the potential risk posed by right-wing extremists, which is enhanced considerably by the presence of a military background.
Too bad the wounded egos of a bunch of loudmouthed demagogues who insist on a ridiculously tendentious reading of the factual contents of a serious domestic-terrorism report are more important than the lives of those law-enforcement officers.
Yeah...
They'll neuter you.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Those officers had guns!!! How could they be killed?
/snark
me-oww!
how could he have killed them without a evil 'assault rifle'
Chalk two more up Glen Beck, O'Reilly, et al.
Oh wait, you had nothing to do with this. Appy polly logies.
Only repugs can simultaneously argue about their influence and deny their influence at the same time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krb2OdQksMc
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Orwell must be ever so proud!
Killing is the American way. We have killed and will continue to
kill, as a nation and as individuals. We have a culture of violence.
Sports, movies, TV, all promote violence.
Racism is the American way. Our nation and culture are systematically
racist.
Our language is racist. We refer to African Americans as
"black". Obama is half Caucasian but he is universally considered black.
Black
# being of the achromatic color of maximum darkness; having little or no hue owing to absorption of almost all incident light; "black leather ...
# of or belonging to a racial group having dark skin especially of sub-Saharan African origin; "a great people--a black people--...injected new meaning and dignity into the veins of civilization"- Martin Luther King Jr.
# marked by anger or resentment or hostility; "black looks"; "black words"
# offering little or no hope; "the future looked black"; "prospects were bleak"; "Life in the Aran Islands has always been bleak and difficult"- J.M.Synge; "took a dim view of things"
# stemming from evil characteristics or forces; wicked or dishonorable; "black deeds"; "a black lie"; "his black heart has concocted yet another black deed"; "Darth Vader of the dark side"; "a dark purpose"; "dark undercurrents of ethnic hostility"; "the scheme of some sinister intelligence bent ...
Violence, racism, torture, corruption...welcome to a new century!!!
Much of what you say is true, but what's your point? Should we just wallow in despair?
and you're gonna have to clean it up!!
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
I praise Bob.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I thought MS killed that OS a long time ago?
http://www.eskimo.com/~carcosa/s-or-d.gif
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
is praising ME.
No. I am trying to organize an effort to get politicians that
support torture to be water boarded publicly for charity. If you
have a Republican Senator or Congressman call them and ask them if
they would be willing to be water boarded for charity. My Senator
Kit Bond R-MO says water boarding is like swimming lessons.
So your pro-violence if it's for a good cause? ;)
I thought about that too as I wrote the comment. But no one
of course would say yes. So I don't support violence by
asking people if they would be tortured for charity. Just
making them feel uncomfortable...which is peaceful!
I'd rather not see waterboarding done for any reason; not to humiliate Hannity and not for charity. Turning torture into entertainment is not going to help us put an end to it.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7e-37KHqIc
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
The problem here is none of what is suggested IS torture. Torture requires either extreme true pain or a genuine fear for one's life. Doing is for Fear Factor or for Jerry Lewis' telethon, is not torture. True torture is a criminal offense and by showing it to an audience makes them all accomplices to said crime.
does make a tad bit of difference. No?
to them, saying it's not torture, then I think this is the perfect way for them to learn that they are wrong. And having a charity benefit from it would be so much the better. Don't worry, though, Hannity's never going to be humiliated in this way, because he will never actually do it. He's too much of a gutless, lying pussy.
I fear waterboarding has already been reduced to mere entertainment in public discourse. People make jokes about it, and call it by many 'creative' names. Dulls the wit and senses: it masks the severity of the crime. It's being reduced to a dull and commonplace topic. That's the true crime; ennui will cause people to want to move on. Look over there; something new and shiny.
It is a serious business, and no one wants to face the music. It would deflate the bubble: the myth of the noble America, the "shining city on the hill" (RR)everyone wants to believe.
A look at recent history proves you are anything but that.
far left loon >.<
--but it might end or at least quell Hannity's smugness. The man did volunteer.
every freaking day they are shooting it out with the police anymore.
The insult to veterans is not the thought that any of them could be involved in violent crimes. Veterans, like any other group, run the gamut from normal to nuts.
The insult is in denying them medical and psychiatric coverage that they need because of the result of their service.
worse.
The VA is massively under-funded and the military is really becoming yo-yo (you're on your own) with their services so that the govt. can cut the staffing budget.
When I left the Navy, I was diagnosed with PTSD and depression, two things that make concentrating more difficult. Trying to navigate all of the paperwork was next to impossible and I was finally told by my VA rep (who did everything he could for me), "unless you were splattered with blood, don't expect any disability."
If it happened to me, it's happened to others and is still happening now.
Fortunately, I was able to find a job that paid enough so that I can afford medical insurance and counseling; many Veterans aren't as lucky.
You're not my nephew are you?
..that if you're pulled over for a traffic violation, the Police will draw on you just to be sure. Horrible scenario, easy to envision.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
if you're a cop, specially in particular areas, you're radar is going to be up even higher.
As I've said before...we're not even into the long hot summer yet.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Well a black man's the president.
I'm hoping Texas freezes over.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
... that might already be the case.
I think if white families driving their BMW's to church in the suburbs were put up against the side of a squad car for a traffic stop we might have a different national attitude. But they're far less likely to even be stopped.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Blacks have had to endure worse than this for eons, and nobody gave a crap. Heck these white suburbanites thought the term "driving while black" was endearing.
i think more communities and municipalities will be tempted to privatize their police forces after instances like this. they will prefer to opt to hire 'Xe'-like outfits, that consist of mercs more suited to be urban warriors than PEACE officers.
I'm not following your reasoning. Two cops get gunned down at a firing range and NOW there's going to be a sea change in the way we employ police officers?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
not no way, not no how.
If anything, this will only galvanize the citizenry, the police force, and the politicians to go after these whackos. Which I think is overall, a good thing.
If these far rightwing ex military assholes keep shootin up cops, that's goin to bring about a quick end to their little teabagger rebellion.
They ain't gonna go all private police force on us. For one, the communities and municipalities can't afford squat right now, and the citizens won't stand for it, and neither will the real cops.
like in oakland?
"The City of Oakland has decided to hire a private security (International Services Inc) firm to police some of its most violent areas. And they are not alone in considering private firms for security work."
But I think most smaller cities, where the majority of these rightwingnuts are likely to be, won't be able to afford it.
And for the record, I think privatizing the police is HORRIBLE idea.
i would never have assumed you were for privatizing the police, LnM. you are too smart for that.
and you hit the nail on the head: its about the comparative prices.
like privatizing the military, or even issues like privatizing water, privatization is pushed by the private sector as a way to alleviate strained govt budgets. and the private entities give every assurance in the world that, by privatizing, money will be saved. and, as in war and water, we see again and again that the exact opposite is true: it costs more money and services falter.
which is partly my fear. those small towns you mentioned might be courted by prvt 'police' forces with a promise to save the govt money. which we know is a dubious assertion at best.
programs is another step to corporatocracy.
they've already started privatizing roads and highways.
Which I think is just the height of greed and stupidity.
They might be more efficient at trimming budgets (by firing people willy-nilly), but we never hear word of the massive profits they expect and demand. In the end, what money is saved?
Look at for-profit health insurance. All id does is deny a lot of people acess, and services.
far left loon >.<
I have a friend who works at a VA hospital and PTSD is a big problem for all soldiers coming back from a war zone. It really shows you how much the right cares about these guys that they want to politicize this issue.
WW2 was a different story everyone was dragged into it. WW2 veterans still came home terribly screwed up but the U.S. emerged the big victor and veterans got help and support and benefits and went on to bigger and better things. Now days your tossed on the street when your enlistment is up or your discharged for other reasons and your on your own.
They'll deny it of course, but then they are repugs....they deny ANY responsibility no matter how obvious!
What a network of sedition. Get the angry mobs to take to arms. Turn them against each other. Get them angry...get them damned good and angry; OH, and fearful helps too.
Pigs! Disgusting seditious pigs! THEY ARE TO BLAME, and there is no way around it. Nice going you f*cktards. Your day is coming!! I'm hoping.....I'm really hoping!
Me too. These assholes need to be held responsible. No more dead cops, no more dead people.
NOBODY 2012
First of all I want to say that not all of the veterans returning home are going to become a problem, there is just a small percent that will though and it shouldn't reflect on the other veterans that have served this country with HIGH HONORS.
GWB and his cronies were so desperate to get people to go to Iraq they changed the requirement for entry into the military, especially waivers for people with criminal backgrounds.
So what happened is that you had "gang-bangers", "gang members","street thugs", "skinheads", "white supremacist types" and god knows who else joining the military.
They are now all returning home with military training and are going to put it to use, on the streets.
I would also add that not only are there criminal elements but those who are mentally unhinged allowed in as well.
I don't really think that is entirely correct. I talked to a person who did the screening, not even a week ago, and he said that while the system had not been perfect, it was more strict than it had been in a while.
Then I am glad they increased the standards and carried out more intensive screenings. When I was in the service during the early 90s the screening for severe personality disorders, and others was really lax. I know of at least 5 guys right off the top of my head that I served with who I thought for sure had a few screws loose.
joining any armed forces was a big red flag right there.
J/K
I grew up in a military family, and honestly... if they were to eliminate people based on personality disorders (esp. hyper aggressive traits), the armed forces would lose over half of their personnel if not more.
As the saying goes... "better to have them on our side..."
And I remember many people saying at the time they increased the waivers for criminals that it wouldn't end well. I also remember thinking at the time that that was probably exactly what bush/cheney/rumsfeld wanted.
the logic is amazing.
#1) The deputies were ill-prepared. It was a warrant for domestic violence. That's near the top of the list for potentially violent encounters. And they went to apprehend him at a shooting range - he might be armed, right?
#2) Joshua Cartwright was well-prepared. He shot them both in areas unprotected by their bullet-proof vests. Excellent shot, and obviously knowledgeable about the areas left unprotected.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
.
bullet proof vests? That they were ill prepared because they went to arrest him at a shooting range because that is where his wife told police he had arranged to meet friends the previous day?
Think those are his points?
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
They should know that "bullet proof" vests aren't 100% protection from bullets - and act accordingly.
And expect him to be armed.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
They should have expected him to be armed.
Duh!
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
They were prepared. They disarmed him, then shot him with a Taser when he continued to resist. When they turned the Taser off, he came up firing with a weapon he had concealed somewhere on his person.
I forgot my point #3 .. the ineffectiveness of Tasering.
He should have been in cuffs, not Tasered.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
they always like tasering. also remember that he was not haitian or african, so no lethal force was immediately considered.
________________
common sense matters as much as truth
According to the article you link ( Shooting deaths: 'None of it makes sense' ) there is no mention of their disarming him before they Tasered him.
In fact quite the opposite:
And I read the incident report .. no mention there of the deputies disarming him first.
Nor is it in the video you posted.
What's your source, if I might ask?
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
This seems to be the root of the deputies' lack of preparedness.
Ex-sheriff pleads not guilty after deputies killed
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
nothing on the mind but money. I bet he voted republican, too.
________________
common sense matters as much as truth
You know, there always seems to be a common thread with many of these right wing nutcases that I like to call the "little man syndrome". McVeigh was like that. They either couldn't handle the service while they were in and were written up for a failure to adjust, couldn't make the cut for a particular MOS or they were kicked out totally from the service with a less than honorable discharge so to make up for what they see as themselves being inferior they turn far right wing. I bet that when Cartwright's military record does surface, we will learn that he has had a series of Article 15s for various forms of misconduct just like all of the rest. Most veterans are proud of their service (myself included) and wouldn't even think in a million years of doing something like this no matter who the President is.
These people are really giving the government a good reason to take away guns. Without stupid acts of violence like this, guns wouldn't be so stigmatized.
self fulfilling prophecy.
Both of the slain sheriff's officers were retired military veterans of the United States Air Force who had children. None of the links provided by Mr. Niewert contains reports that can definitively identify which branch of the service the shooter was in, whether he had ever served in anything other than a reserve unit, or that he had ever served in conflict. The post makes that fact clear. The Pittsburgh slayings involved a man who never made it through basic training before he was kicked out of the service on a dishonorble discharge. Neither shooter seems to fit the type of veterans targeted for right wing group recruitment in the DHS report.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
Well, there are some people that look ONLY at labels. Had this been a left wing extremist deist, it would have been not mentioned on here. But since it was a right winger, who had a military background, it was a double hit. I know plenty of conservative military people who are not like this guy. And I think it is a shame that MR. Niewert would group all veterans into groups like this. I think this is a very irresponsible post.
The left risks much by attacking vets and gains nothing by inflammatory headlines like Mr. Niewert's. Millions have served honoraby and then go on to live as contributors to their community.
Veterans were branded as baby killers and psychos after WWII and Vietnam....the veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan will not stand for this. Mr. Niewert owes veterans an apology.
Well, one of the unstated points of the DHS bulletin -- but certainly present in its underlying data -- is the reality that right-wing extremism combined with weapons and armament training of any kind can be a lethal combination. Eric Rudolph never saw combat, but he was a veteran too, and he certainly is a contributor to the profile that's been developed by law enforcement for these kinds of situations.
I'm afraid Ricky is missing the bigger picture for the minutiae. The major subject of these posts is the militarization of far-right culture, and how it emerges in incidents like these. This has been an ongoing process since the 1990s, and it has intensified in recent years as a range of extremist organizations, from hate groups to Patriot organizations, have come to emphasize veteran recruitment.
You all may not think this is a problem, but in my experience, it's a very lethal and potentially destructive combination, and one we need to be talking about.
particularly critical. You youself make it clear the killer in this case has a military history that is far less extensive and unclear than that of the two law enforcement officers he shot, and I noted that.
I was simply quoting the stated portion of the DHS report you included in your post: "Returning veterans possess combat skills and experience that are attractive to rightwing extremists. DHS/I&A is concerned that rightwing extremists will attempt to recruit and radicalize returning veterans in order to boost their violent capabilities." Neither killer fit that profile. You cite an "unstated point of the DHS." I prefer to go with the point you quoted because I think there has been more than enough reading things into the DHS report which do not exist.
I think many right wing men have a tendency to sympathize, fantasize, or actually live out their adoration with military culture and guns. That didn't start in the 1990's. I have an acute living memory of a man named Whitman who mounted a tower at my university in my town and blew people away. That was in 1966.
Before FOX. Before Beck. And like the killer in Florida he had a problem with his wife. And like the killer in Pittsburgh he had a problem with his mama. In his case both died as did a lot more people than in these two incidents combined.
I think the problem you have been focused on is real. I just see as much or more indivudual pathology in these two latest events as you see political pathology. I could be right. You could be right. But based on the evidence you and your links present in this case and in Pittsburgh, I don't think either of us will ever know for sure.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
Well, none of these events ever takes place without the personal psychological pathologies already in place, and they all will widely vary, depending on the individual actor. This is as true of this case as it is in cases of pure right-wing extremism (say, David Lewis Rice, or Robert Mathews), as well as varyingly military-related cases such as Rudolph or McVeigh or Poplawsky. McVeigh, obviously, is an intense case of the syndrome, since he was essentially radicalized by his combat experience. Still, what matters is the extent to which the one's inundation in military culture makes one vulnerable to extremist recruitment, because that's something we need to be able to talk about. In cases like Cartwright's, it's simply that he had received weapons training through his Guard involvement and was skilled at that.
Now, what distinguishes these cases from, say, the Alabama rampage shooter, or the one in Binghamton, where none of these factors was present? Nothing particularly, except that those cases reflect the relative randomness of the psychological factors in play in cases of extreme violence such as this. These extremism-related cases, however, are distinguished by the common factors they share, which suggest that it's not entirely random but rather a larger trend, something endemic to the cultures (both the conservative/military culture from which the syndrome springs as well as American culture generally), and potentially something fixable. The random violence, I'm afraid, is much less so.
And FWIW, I didn't think you were being critical either. I actually appreciate being pushed, so please don't misread my response.
things to attend to.
Your points are valid and your theme is crucial. My only concern is that in a society so full of random violence, we need not seize on each incident and emphasize any connection to a larger point and make that point the focus of an incident when perhaps it is not. All you have to do is read some of the comments here to understand people have read things into this incident that clearly are not there.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
I completely agree that right wing extremists are a growing and serious threat. But this story is misleading about what the DHS report actually said.
The report warned law enforcement that right wing extremists groups like white supremacists and libertarians may be targeting veterans for recruitment because of their military experience. In other words, veterans are potential victims if they are recruited. Big difference from what this story implied. Let's not start accusing anyone with a military background of being a right wing extremist. In addition to being very unfair, it's also a very big mistake. We owe these people too much to disrespect them.
But with that said, it's very likely that right wing propaganda motivated this shooting. As it did in Pittsburgh last month. I'm sure we'll learn this guy has been watching and listening to Glen Beck, Fox News and conservative talk radio nonstop. As did the guy in Pittsburgh. And while Glen Beck wasn't mentioned by name in the DHS report, it clearly implicates him and talk radio as motivating factors for the Pittsburgh shootings.
It's totally horrible what these two guys did and my heart goes out to all the families who lost loved ones. But let's place the blame where it truly belongs and acknowledge both of these guys are also victims. They were both influenced and driven to act by propaganda that's presented as "fair and balanced news" or "what real Americans believe". We've now had two violent acts that were motivated by the right wing and we do have incitement laws in this country. When will someone step forward and start enforcing them? At some point, the country has to wake up to this problem and put a stop to this before it's really too late.
Actually it's one of the oldest forms of political correctness, right up there with religious injunctions.
It is not the military as much as it is the news media like Fox , Rush and other right wing hate groups..
Just look at the campaign where Palin , Joe the bummer attack Obama and the democrats with all the lies and hate messages they wish with no control...
Then you had McCain which as usual sits back in he sadly voice and says he does not like this type of campaigning but other people have their opinions.. Mean while he is silently laughing his a... off.
McCain is not the person the news media and other make him out to be...IF you check his policies and actions McCain has his fingers into a lot of corrupted policies and lobbyist..
Bush and the republicans started this division of American before the 2000 election and it has gotten much worst every since... There is no one at the wheel saying that they are stepping into terrorist territory by their lies , misstatements and propaganda..
None
still on armed forces radio?
________________
common sense matters as much as truth
then he probably went to the employer of last resort - the military. that is the only connection to the military and being a veteran. He was screwed up before he joined and I'd bet my food stamps he met more like him in the military, even a few who went in specifically to prepare for the final war for America.
This guy was paranoid and hateful anyway and likely considered anyone in any government during the Obama Administration a traitor. Then he gets emotional fuel from fux and cnn and AM hateRadio.
________________
common sense matters as much as truth
It is a matter of political correctness that we should only speak of people in the military in glowing terms (heroes, brave, noble, honorable etc.). The reality is much different.
I spent 3 years in the Army. The Army, like all branches of the service gets its members from the general public which is made of of decent people and criminals.
Most servece men I knew were decent and honorable but there are also some hard core sickos among them. For those who get off on killing, cruelty and torture, the military during wartime is a place where their sick fantasies can come true. There is little to stop them and the military tends to cover up these kinds of incidents, if they find out about them.
The military tries to weed out these "bad apples" but it is under pressure to keep the ranks filled.
So lets honor those in the military be let's not let the uniform blind us to the fact that there are some really insane people in uniform.
Is this video all we have on this domestic suicide shooter? What ever happened to 'if it bleeds it leads'? I guess the MSM is covering for the republicans. they can't exist without the republicans - the MSM is scared to feature this story - a front page story talor made for MSM to route out republican hypocrisy and outright dangerous behavior, and yet they drop it like a hot potato. Shame on MSM.
"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-
and lying is pretty much all they do.
________________
common sense matters as much as truth
Most of the news channels are stuck on the Arlen Specter story right now. I'd guess this story will start getting national coverage tonight into tomorrow. Hopefully.
This should be such an easy Republican meme to discredit. I'd like to see more Democrats respond that the GOP's indifference to the welfare of US troops (remember Walter Reed, the claw back of enlistment bonuses from the badly injured and the refusal to pay for more IED resistant transports and body armor?) has left SOME members of the military more vulnerable to exploitation when they return from combat.
Like after Vietnam PTSD. But these poor guy's have to have a much worse case then the Vietnam era vets. Because at least during nam you spent your year and you were out! These people have been forced to stay longer and have done multiple tours. You know they are much more tramatized.
This is what happens to a country that allows criminals to steal two elections.
I am so ashamed of the republicans in this country!
What an awful group of people.
take him to the death row plz...
killing does not solve problems
mlm training
There are a few details that I haven't seen covered here. This guy was considered armed and dangerous and his wife told the police that he was unstable and very violent. The went to the gun range because they knew that's where he was and needed to be caught asap. He was not going to go quietly, so while a gun range is not exactly the best place to arrest someone they couldn't chance him becoming violent on a random stranger. Also, they were wearing their vests or at least that is what has been reported locally. However, you have to be shot where the vests cover for it to be effective and they were not. And to close here's an update on the Dannie Baker situation. If you don't remember him, he's the guy who shot and killed those kids that were in this country LEGALLY and then barricaded himself in his house when the police got there. He killed them on a neighbors lawn in plain sight and called for a revolution. Well, he just plead not guilty.
"Every snow flake pleads Not Guilty after the avalanche"!
Inevitable that we will see some crazy-ass psychos back here from their tours. I'm always up for the mentioning the day I was 5 minutes late to pick up somebody and missed the Vietnam vet freeway sniper by 5 minutes. Drove by one of the dead guys. About '75.
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