This story says it all: conservatives really don't care about anyone who isn't rich. Even the people working for them. When Ron Paul was asked by Wolf Blitzer if a person should simply be left to die in his world view, the audience cheered and Paul gave a sickening response.
Gawker enlightens us with information about the man who helped Ron Paul make the plunge into presidential politics. A man Paul should owe a lot to and a man who lost his life in almost the same way that Blitzer described.
Ron Paul’s Campaign Manager Died of Pneumonia, Penniless and Uninsured
Should the state pay his bills? Paul responded, "That's what freedom is all about: taking your own risks. This whole idea that you have to take care of everybody—"
He never quite finished that point, letting the audience's loud applause finish it for him. So Blitzer pressed on, asking if he meant that "society should just let him die," which earned a chilling round of approving hoots from the crowd. Paul would not concede that much outright, instead responding with a personal anecdote, the upshot being that in such a case, it was up to churches to care for the dying young man. So basically, yeah. He'd let him die. As it turns out, Paul was not speaking purely in hypotheticals. Back in 2008, Kent Snyder — Paul's former campaign chairman — died of complications from pneumonia. Like the man in Blitzer's example, the 49-year-old Snyder (pictured) was relatively young and seemingly healthy* when the illness struck. He was also uninsured. When he died on June 26, 2008, two weeks after Paul withdrew his first bid for the presidency, his hospital costs amounted to $400,000. The bill was handed to Snyder's surviving mother (pictured, left), who was incapable of paying. Friends launched a website to solicit donations.
According to the Wall Street Journal's 2008 story on his death, Snyder was more than just a strategic ally: He was the only reason Paul thought he ever had a shot at the presidency in the first place.
"It was Kent more than anyone else who encouraged and pushed Ron to run for president," said Jesse Benton, a spokesman for Mr. Paul. "Ron would not have run for the presidency if it had not been for Kent. Ron was really hesitant, but Kent drove him forward."
And so, what started in February 2007 with one laptop in Snyder's Arlington, Va., apartment, quickly grew into a $35 million campaign employing 250 people. In the fourth quarter of that year, Snyder raised a stunning $19.5 million for Paul — more than any other Republican candidate had raised at the time.
After Snyder's death, Paul posted a message to the website for his Campaign for Liberty — a pre-Tea Party organization which served Paul as both presidential marketing tool and platform to promote his non-interventionist, free market ideals. He wrote:
"Like so many in our movement, Kent sacrificed much for the cause of liberty. Kent poured every ounce of his being into our fight for freedom. He will always hold a place in my heart and in the hearts of my family."
And that, friends, is what freedom is really all about.
*The Kansas City Star quoted his sister at the time as saying that a "a pre-existing condition made the premiums too expensive." [The Political Carnival, photo via Ron Paul's Flickr]
On June 26, 2008, exactly two weeks after Paul ended his bid for the presidency, Synder passed away due to complications from his pneumonia. Snyder experienced Paul’s world of free market health care, a peculiar system that distinguishes the United States as the only Western country that does not provide basic care to its citizens. A look back at the charity effort launched to save Snyder’s life reveals a grim failure. Despite Paul’s insistence that charity is the appropriate response to America’s uninsured crisis, Snyder’s friends raised $34,870.53, far short of the $400,000 necessary to pay his bills.
Politically correct news outlets covering health policy issues refuse to note that the far right and corporate lobbying effort to repeal health reform would restore America’s system where 45,000 Americans die every year because of lack of health coverage. Although CNN scorned politicians in previous years for suggesting that health reform saves lives, Blitzer’s question to Paul has actually forced a discussion of how politics affects every day lives, interrupting an otherwise vapid discussion of horse race presidential reporting.
Snyder played a leading hand in developing the “Tea Party” and “money bomb” fundraising efforts for the Paul campaign, a strategy that helped the candidate break small donor fundraising records. “It was Kent more than anyone else who encouraged and pushed Ron to run for president,” said Jesse Benton, a Paul spokesman in a Wall Street Journal piece about Snyder’s life.


We can all get behind Ron Paul's call to Audit the Fed and Restore the Bill of Rights. We need to elect progressive, but we can't afford to let the corporations divide us into easily conquered factions of left vs. right when we can agree on much stuff and push that forward.
Election Integrity, Investigation of crimes, Auditing the Fed, Bill of Rights, and Prosecuting criminals are things we should all be able to agree on and push forward together.
We, The People!
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
I'm very sorry to hear that, as it could happen to any one of us.
Is there karmic justice? You bet, but unlike the ghouls at the "debate," it's hard to revel in it.
There are two unfathomable things I takeaway from this: 1) how is it possible to run up $400,000 in bills for pneumonia? 2) Why would you even contemplate paying it off after you died?
I'm pretty sure he was a gay dude who died from aids.
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt
so they get to multiply his bills times 10.
which is why condoms are marketed exclusively to that demographic.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
...the contributions raised to help pay for the medical bills amounted to $38,000 or so. So the balance of that medical bill will result in...?
a) Lawsuits
b) the cost being distributed among everyone else
c) making a bunch of lawyers wealthier
d) all of the above
Absolutely stupid we can't have single payer so hurry up and die.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
AIDS. It may not have necessarily been his choice to go w/o insurance. He had a pre-existing condition and couldn't afford it.
me-oww!
his bill wouldn't have been $400,000, because of preset limits ... even a private insurance company would have negotiated a lower rate ... but if you are uninsured, you or your hapless survivors pay top dollar!
Because his mother got stuck with the bill. I've been trying to find out what happened to her, but haven't found anything yet.
But medical bills cause more than 60% of bankruptcies in this country.
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-05/health/ban...
intensive care unit, or known someone that has. those are the single most expensive beds in any hospital, and probably with good reason. they have 24/7/365 specialized nursing coverage, dr's immediately on-call, huge amounts of incredibly expensive equipment, dedicated solely to that floor. as the name implies, the care delivered is intensive, and expensive. for the vast majority using those beds, their stay will only be a day or two, costing a couple of grand. beyond that, and it'll be as though you're staying in the penthouse suite of the most expensive hotel in the world, but without the beaches and view.
I would argue a better use for the money it cost for this guy to take two months to died a horrible death, it would have been better spent on him before he got ill. It would have saved money for him not to get that sick.
It's Prevention v Crisis Management. This country's stock in trade is the latter.
me-oww!
criteria:
1. Die early.
2. Die quiet.
3. Die cheap.
Oh, if only he'd only saved Ron Paul the shame of this story and been killed by a bus!
I wonder how much the Congressman contibuted towards the charity to pay this guy's bills? If he was so important to Paul, you'd think a fairly wealthy man like him would have given a good chunk of money so the poor guys mother didn't get stuck with the bill.
This is a shamefully stupid nation, and a stupidly shameless one, at the same time.
Texas Baptists should rally to Paul no matter what the cost, and get the man the medical attention he deserves. If it takes a team of psychiatrists to straighten him out, so be it.
It should be noted that Paul finds nothing untoward in Mr. Snyder's story.
While most of the rest of us are horrified at the complete abrogation of any social compact espoused by Rep. Paul, and at the predictable results of that abrogation, Rep. Paul presumably nods contentedly at the way it should be.
Couldn't get insurance because of a pre-existing condition, eh? Yup, that's what the recent health reform covered. It's a shame that his bills were passed along to his nearest surviving family member. There's something wrong about that, too.
In ancient China, a doctor got a premium, sort of like an insurance payment but not, only as long as the patient was healthy. The moment the patient sickened, the money stopped until the doctor made him/her well again.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
How is the nearest surviving family member responsible for the costs? The man is obvious over 18/21/35 (whatever).
Also ther was this in the original story...
I don't know what this guy was getting paid. If it was not enough to cover $600 a month insurance then Ron Paul is an asshole. But we knew that.
If the nearest family member agrees to pay the bills, the bills are paid. Let's not mention how they were strong-armed into agreeing to something they legally didn't have to agree to.
I don't think so. I'm insured via NY COBRA and my insurance is now close to $9,000 a year. Or $750 a month. And that's a lot less than I'd pay on the open market.
gosh, i hope that someone, some day, gives me a cogent explanation for why we do not have universal health care!
It's apparently a character flaw if you 1) don't have enough money or 2) if you get sick. You just shouldn't get sick if you can't afford it.
Because it's socialism, which leads to communism, which leads to fascism and causes one to love the terrists. That's why.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
about the pig :)
only agreed to treat without insurance if someone agreed to cover the costs, like maybe they made his mother sign that she would be responsible before they would do anything? I don't see hospitals holding people without knowing how it will be billed. I can see them threatening to turn away people until they establish how payment will be made. While hospitals DO have to treat you for life-threatening situations, they don't have to maintain that treatment, they can stabilize you and kick you out.
This "Topic"/story should have been linked to "The Political Carnival" where it originated. Not "Gawker" which is a "gossip" site more or less. I like Gawker but The Political Carnival is the site that should get the credit for the story.
WTF is up with that? SHE didn't get sick. Why should she get the tab? She should tell all those doctors, hospitals, labs, radiology groups, etc to go fuck themselves. See how that sits with those libertarian assholes.
Or maybe she should send it to all of those "friends, charities, neighbors..." that Paul touts as sources of assistance. Evidently Sen. Paul does not fit into any of those categories. What a fucking sadist.
The people of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage." J.K. Galbraith
...it might as well be Snyder's mother otherwise its everybody else. Do you want to be burdened with this debt? I mean, if everyone in the country contributed, then it would amount to maybe pennies but that would be socialized medicine or single payer or something equally intelligent.
Everybody's got a pretty good /snark-meter here, so I won't say anymore.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
to cover the un-insured's hospital bills when they and/or their families cannot pay, only the insured are paying, in dollars
and that's what cracks me up about the i-got-mine-you-get-yours-crowd ... they are the ones paying for catastrophic and emergency care for the uninsured, instead of all of us sharing the burden for nation-wide preventive care and a lesser amount of catastrophic and emergency care
instead of lowering their own medical bills by sharing the burden nationally, however, the i-got-miners just want the poor to die in a ditch ... makes me wonder who they think will cover the body disposal costs ... or are we just supposed to let people rot where they fall?
...rot where they fall. (more /snark)
Sad, we really are backward aren't we?
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
It's patently clear Paul donated little or nothing to aid with the bills.
Ron Paul is a flake and a whore just like the other freaks running for the GOP ticket.
Paul knows how to court the vote. He's managed to support some issues that are near and dear to progressives' hearts but make no mistake, he would be as bad a president as Perry, Romney and Bachmann. Ron Paul is the proverbial blind squirrel.
A good liberal friend keeps urging me to consider this goon for president. "Read his words, listen to his speeches. He's looking out for the little guy." I did what he suggested and have come away convinced that Ron Paul is unelectable. That little guy he speaks for resides in his head.
Anyone who supports this freak is a one issue moron. They hear Paul make a statement that rings true to them, like legalizing marijuana or auditing the FED and think he's the Messiah. Well, he's not... kinda the opposite.
The GOP has become a traitorous organization bent on the destruction of the American way of life. Republicans hate our freedoms and will do anything in their power to attack and crush them.
Kinda sounds familiar... isn't that what they say about Muslims?
...a culture that is Libertarian and has been successful. That usually shuts them up.
Mickey: "It was an epiphany. Do you know what an epipany is?"
Keoni: "NOT NOW MICKEY!"
you have to mention in MODERN times, cause they'll go back centuries and twist history into a pretzel.
Maybe. But certainly not for the little woman.
Paul has stated that the right to abortion for women and girls should be left up to the states. Which means that groups of fundamentalist religious people can mob together and deny this right to females. The fundamentalists also want to deny the right to birth control, which is an extremely valuable way for couples to plan their families.
gets cover with his antiwar stances, but his true colors are now shining. Even here in the liberal PacNW I would here people talk about Paul, sometimes glowingly, and whenever I asked these people if they know his positions or his racist tendencies I just got back blank looks.
Ron Paul is a despicable person. He is the rare combination of someone who is blinded by his his self-love and white elitism, a raw ignorance for analytical thinking and a penchant for morphing ethnocentric tribalism with pro-serfdom economics. We see this all the time in the US, but rarely do we see someone who so utterly believes in the cult. I'm pretty sure Mitt and Rick realize they are out to screw 98% of the US. Crazy Uncle Paul believes that "freedom" really does mean to kill every living creature on this planet as long as business's can use $100 bills as toilet paper.
"I'm pretty sure Mitt and Rick realize they are out to screw 98% of the US. Crazy Uncle Paul believes that "freedom" really does mean to kill every living creature on this planet as long as business's can use $100 bills as toilet paper."
And that's the way it is, Thursday September 15, 2011. I'm Walter Cronkite, and from the corporate fascist states of america................, good evening. ,
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
You are just regurgitating tidbits of smear campaigns you have heard. Did you know Ron Paul used to be for the death penalty before he realized it was mainly used against the black minority?
Did you also know that it was writers for a Ron Paul newsletter that made what some called "racist slurs" about who was starting riots at the time. That is the source of you calling Ron Paul a racist today. None of the articles were written by Ron Paul, furthermore the so called racists quotes have been taken out of context.
Ron Paul is a reasonable man is about human rights and equality.
to Wolf Blitzer yesterday discussing this with an interview with RP
First, of course, that Ron Paul, committed as he is to "pro-life" (<-- for Miss Kitty) and religious charity, didn't see fit to put his money where his words went. He could have written a check, but he didn't. Just the kind of friend anyone wants, right?
Second....$400,000?? For something he probably contacted IN the hospital? (I know records aren't kept, but you would be AMAZED at how many people recovering from something else in a hospital die from pneumonia.) THAT should be a CRIME! Ridiculous!
:) for Ron Paul, he could have been charitable and reached into his own deep pockets to help out a fellow human being, employee, and perhaps friend even. You're right, he could have written a check, paid the huge premium for the guy who ran his campaign, probably weakened by doing so:
Ron Paul, the little guy's champion, turns out to be a millionaire
I'm not sure if 'the little guy's champion' in the title is snark or not.
As for the pneumonia-if it were pneumocystis carinii pneumonia, a yeast-caused pneumonia, common in AIDS patients who are sensitive to yeast, he probably did not pick it up in the hospital. The guy could not afford insurance because he was HIV positive--pre-existing. It's amazing Snyder worked himself to death for a gay hating sociopath.
me-oww!
CNN must be desperate for ratings to host this debacle.
under Ron Paul's plan. Or any plan that does not give everyone free access to healthcare. The actual savings is in not having to hire 'Death Panels.'
With these people, it's 'Zero Tolerance' for poor people.
me-oww!
To these republican psychopath's, not being a millionaire is a pre-existing condition.
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
The karmic wheel has a sense of humor, sort of..
to wish death upon a sitting US Congressman and Senator. Now that's classy, and quite the intellectual arguement as well.
You know this guy is a nutjob, we he names his kid after sociopathic hypocrite dirtbag Ayn Rand.
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
His son is not named after Ayn Rand, his full name is Randall.
Thanks, I'll make a note.
Hate to be wrong; but I do find it interesting that he goes by Rand.
I've known several hillbillies whose name was Randall, and I don't remember any of them going by Rand.
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
All the Aqua Buddha stuff .... sounds like he got Randy a lot in college ...
I'm Boycotting NewsCorp! Heres what not to buy: http://www.cjr.org/resources/index.php?c=news...
It may be "Randall," but if you think it's only just kinda sorta a coincidence that the Nickname of Randall is Rand and that Daddy is a huge fan of sociopath hypocrite Ms Ayn... be serious.
~albabe (The Writer/Artist Formally Known As Al Gordon)
http://www.comicon.com/gordon/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gordon
Ron Paul's daughter ain't named Ayn. So it could very well be a coincidence.
And frankly naming issues are the last of my concerns with Paul and scion, their stands on domestic issues are insane enough, no need for silly distractions.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
I don't follow the logic... So, since Ron didn't name his daughter "Ayn," then he didn't see the correlation between his son's nickname and his heroine's last name?
Besides... It was just a "silly distraction." It was one sentence... now it's 6... not counting your 3.
I guess you've never posted anything silly or distracting in here?
~albabe (The Writer/Artist Formally Known As Al Gordon)
http://www.comicon.com/gordon/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gordon
Rand+.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
how'd this guy become doctor, he can't even complete a cogent and concise argument on stage....he seems befuddled at times
is a first class whack job. This is the loon who say's that there is no need for FEMA and uses as a example the hurricane in Galveston in 1910, by saying the people were just fine with no federal support, failing to mention that 12 to 16 thousand people died. Ron Paul just believes if you're not rich and well off, you should just die if disaster befalls you and your family.
diamondmc
if they stayed alive, then they would have been a drain on the system from the recovery. So for him that would still be a win.
I want someone, ANYONE, hammering Ron Paul on this story. "Hey Ron, you had the money and the means, why did you let your friend die?"
Take this story and hang it around the GOPs neck. THIS is why we need universal healthcare Rethugs! Because like Paul, you selfish bastards would rather let people, even people you KNOW and have helped you personally DIE rather than help, you selfish, greedy bastards!
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Robert E. Howard
He didn't LET him die. He died in a hospital after two months of fighting pnuemonia. He didn't have health insurance due to a pre-existing condition, but he did receive medical attention.
he was more than valuable to him. I'm guessing if Mr Snyder had access to healthcare SOONER, he would not have gone into health crisis and died. Paul apparently did nothing to help a valued employee, Ron Paul, with millions on hand, could not be charitable to a stellar employee, and help him obtain insurance, or help him get healthcare before the pneumonia crisis.
But I expect that from a sociopath who appeals to sociopaths.
Note: If you work for Ron Paul, DON'T GET DEATHLY ILL.
me-oww!
Your "guessing" that he didn't get healthcare soon enough. And then, "apparently" RP did nothing for his friend. Now please return to your crystal ball and tell us who will win the next super bowl.
As I gaze into my dimensional doorway information transference device (a "crystal ball" to you) I can safely predict that the winner of the next Super Bowl will be....the team which scores more points...
ask anyone. And I must say, it's quite clever of you to use YOUR crystal ball, to dismiss my comment.
And he did do nothing. Not a guess. See the info in this post above
me-oww!
and I don't know the Snyder family so I have no idea what the circumstances are. Please enlighten me, oh wise one. So I was not speculating, however you are.
Also, I read the links posted here. Here is a link to an interview yesterday about this story.
This round clearly goes to Miss Kitty.
Ron Paul - like all in the present day GOP, is a thoughtless, heartless, sociopath.
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
I have no crystal ball either. According to sources, the guy couldn't afford his COBRA, so at one point he DID have insurance.
You're a Paulbot, and everything you say is based on Paul's bullshit.
me-oww!
TFR
at reliable sources and resources available to those without balls.
TFR
hate the word "liberty". It stands for such monstrous things these days thanks to you people.
soon enough." It's obvious and apparent He Didn't.
Want to try your hand at the obvious and apparent diagnosis of Terri Schiavo?
You can send Drs. Frist and Coburn a consultation bill.
TFR
4liberty. Why don't you enlighten me? Back to ignore for you.
coming down firmly on the side of the libertarians. Is this your coming out party little Ricky? I'll wait a day for you to respond, I know I mean that little to you and it makes me lose sleep at night. I will come back tomorrow for your witty response. Giddy with anticipation.
make doctor's appointments or have access to preventative care so when he finally received care it was too late and he died.
Just Keep Your Hands Off His Medicare!
Just Keep Your Hands Off His Medicare!
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
Failure to meet one of Wilber's deadlines might mean someone in power could link back to his definitive blog post as proof I did not deny the charge that I have leapt out of the Libertarian closet.
Coming down snarkily against commentary stupidity implies no partisan flavor.
Charging someone with a partisan tinge based on pointing out the stupidity of a comment, however, does imply the person making the charge might be similarly afflicted. Better seek early treatment, Wilber.
TFR
Paul and the rest of the Looney Toons on the right are big about talkign up letting the Churches and "Community's" (Meaning family, neighbors and FRIENDS) stepping up and caring for people in crisis.
Except Paul shows that lie for what it is. It's dog whistle for "Screw you, I got mine!"
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Robert E. Howard
he might as well be named after Ayn Rand, judging by his actions.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." -- Robert E. Howard
Attention...Attention! Once more...with feeling.
If you scratch a libertarian hard enough, you will find a NUT inside.
Thank you for your attention.
"Anyone that makes less than $150K in this country, has no business voting Republican."
I know for a fact that most of us un-insured really want to be insured. The choice being, do I feed my family or do I pay the premium? I lost my job because of medical problems, and as soon as my employer found out, I was out the door. Yes there are disability payments, but only a fraction of what I made before. This only covers the bare necessities, and yes, I have reduced my opulent life style, but all I have saved by doing without has been surpassed by price increases in food, fuel, etc. Disability has no "raises". So, that said, Is it my fault to have worked all of my life only to be rewarded with a quick death? No retirement for this guy, and then to be rejected by Wall-mart is the final insult.
Ron Paul is not a conservative hypocrite? My brain!!
Normally it would be a conservative saying, "Oh yes, I love all my relatives" and later on we find out they strangled a cousin or something. Ron just tells it how it is and sticks to it in this case. He's still a heartless bastard.
Blitzer was quite clear that the person in the example simply chose to forgo insurance, as opposed to someone who doesn't have insurance because they cannot afford it and they are unemployed or their job doesn't offer it.
The difference between the two scenarios is dramatic and I for one feel very differently between the two them. The focus of the question shouldn't be on a person who chooses irresponsibility but upon someone who is suffering misfortune beyond their control. It makes me wonder what the reaction of the crowd might have been had Blitzer posed the question about someone who lost their job, lost their insurance and either could only get a job that didn't provide insurance or enough to pay for it, or couldn't get a job at all. Ah, who am I kidding the reaction probably would have been the same.
The cheers would have been louder of course, knowing it was a poor person........., or even better,.......a poor minority.
A Teabircher two-fer.
Rush Limbaugh is what a smart person thinks a stupid bigot sounds like.
death
shall we deny care to smokers with lung cancer or heart disease, and who cannot afford insurance, because they chose to risk their health, not to mention wasted money on cigs? shall we deny care to the uninsured obese? persons with sexually transmitted aids?
the baggers are heartless, period, and ignorant of their own fallibility and dependency as human beings ... me, i hope that my neighbor will offer a helping hand, even when i fuck up, and i intend to do the same
Yeah, it seems there's this idea of punishing 'evil-doers' or 'irresponsible' people -- but people they deem worthy need to live at all costs. However, they don't say that prisoners shouldn't get any medical care, or that poor children (who certainly are innocent are worthy) should get care.
Somehow, it's the people like them that deserve care, and the rest of the world are just supposed to take their lumps. They don't realize how close they are to losing everything due to some mishap not their fault. Then maybe someone will then look at them and call them 'irresponsible'.
I'm merely pointing out that the example in question was posited to make the person unsympathetic. The question should have addressed what to do about people who can't afford insurance and get sick. Now personally I'm for a single-payer govt run solution that stops making the wellbeing of people a commodity, but that isn't what we have and the difference between the two examples is large.
and my response was that, the bagger position aside, i don't think that we need to "deserve" compassion ... we can fuck up and still not be left to dies from our mistakes ... because we are all living on the brink of fucking up and making bad choices ... and the penalty for being short sighted or stupid or reckless should not, in my opinion, be death
If a pre-existing condition makes the insurance way too expensive, how can it be a choice? I know if I didn't have employer coverage, I would not be able to get anything on the market while the pre-existing condition allowed them to charge whatever they like. It would be half my take home pay.
Here's a hint, when insurance companies jack up the price so high for pre-existing conditions, they don't really expect anyone to pay those premiums, except those desperate because they know they will have hospital treatment that will take away their home. The insurance industry doesn't want us -- they charge so high so we WON'T sign up.
The person in the example was a healthy person with a job who chose not to have insurance just because he felt since he was healthy and didn't need it, then gets sick. That is an entirely different set of circumstances than someone who can't afford insurance or has no job or has a pre-existing medical condition.
Ron Paul and all the other members of the House and Congress get Government Health Care paid by the People. We pay for them if THEY get sick, Even after they leave/retire from office they still are covered. They proved to the rest of America that they don't want us to have what they get because they turned down the public option on Obama Health care bill. At least the bill passed with feature that keeps Insurance company's from denying you for a per-existing condition, but that didn't happen till Obama. Maybe this guy would of had a better chance of survival if he didn't support Ron Paul.
Ron Paul has declined his government paid healthcare. Additionally he's declined to take his 22 year pension for being a congress critter. He said it's immoral for a public servant to take money like that.
Maybe you should read up a bit on some Ron Paul facts before lumping him in with the rest of the pandering neocons.
How do you know he won't take his pension? Because he said so? Now that's funny.
nonsense.
Ron Paul, like the rest of the Tea Baggers are Grade A hypocrites.
Taxpayer funded health insurance for me, non for thee. Just like his idol Ayn Rand who collected Social Security as soon as she became eligible to.
Makes one wonder why Paul didn't pick up the full tab for his "friend" as an act of "charity." Or maybe those words have no application in a Republican-fascist world?
the only libertarian loon here is usually VegasRage. He is wrong about most everything but deserves points for coming to hostile territory. Every time there is a post about Ron Paul you people crawl out of your caves, or skip your sophomore philosophy course, to come here and defend the dear leader. If you are all into wonderful sounding phrases that fit on bumper stickers, like "individual liberty" and "freedom" why all the damn hero worship?
What about minimum wage? What's his stance on that?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
And take your evil p.o.s. spawn with you.
if he wasn't worth 7 mill?
The people of privilege will always risk their complete destruction rather than surrender any material part of their advantage." J.K. Galbraith
How do they say, physician treat thyself? Well, I guess he has that going for him too.
A $400,000 bill, eh?
I wonder what proportion of that is for the actual treatment, and what proportion is pure profit.
Bizarre how people without two pennies to rub together are attracted to libertarianism, Tea Partyism etc.
Moths to the flame?
...if the danged federal government would just get off their backs, we'd all be millionaires!
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
and we'd all have to be billionaires.
At least he died in maximum... free.. ness.
parental financial obligation for fifty pushing "children" to the patient's sexuality... I am surprised nobody has mentioned that, despite no insurance, this guy was given care, including hospitalization, which was sufficient to attach a $400 K bill to it. And he still died. We all do.
In that spirit I will speculate too since we have no idea what became of his debt. I'll bet this 49 year old devoted single male libertarian probably signed the papers at the hospital promising to pay, the hospital treated him as a paying customer and presented the bill to his momma and sisters because they were his heirs. And I'll further bet they were his heirs because he died intestate.
TFR
The anti-Paul might be in deep shit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohKz9OeiI0g&fe...!
Yes Dr. Paul is correct in a couple of issues, namely the war and the fed, but for the wrong reasons.
Libertarians equate "freedom" with reducing every aspect of humanity down to an economic transaction. What a sad life to be trapped in...
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
only got paid a lousy $153 K in the first three quarters of 2007, 90 K in the third quarter alone. I don't know what he got in the fourth quarter, but that was when they raised all the big bucks. And who know what he got paid in 2008. Gee, that might buy a lot of health insurance.
TFR
given the posthumous bill he left...
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
But someone bringing in $150 K in three quarters is not going without insurance because he is penniless.
Any of the health care geniuses who abound in these threads want to specualte on whether the issue for the late Mr. Snyder was not the affordability of coverage, but instead its deniability?
I mean, there are, after all, many stages of denial, including that of a family in discussing why their successful sibling had no insurance or what actually may have taken his life. And since speculation is simply all around us, why not add more?
TFR
The guy is dead and had no health insurance. Those seem to be stablished facts.
To most people "lack of affordability" and "denial of service" are synonyms.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
While this story is sad, the guy did propel RP onto the presidential stage and obviously supported this 'libertarian' scenario. Should I feel sorry for him? This is his vision of America. He got exactly what he believed in.
PS surely, now, he resides in libertarian heaven.
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
I'm surprised RP isn't pimping the story out (for those who cheered Yeah Yeah).
RP: "Here is a picture of my deceased campaign manager. I watched him die because he had no health insurance."
Baggers: Yeah, Yeah, USA USA USA
"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!
burdening too much the insurance company, as that would increase the premiums of those of us who actually do pay our premiums.
As a person who employed people without health care, Ron Paul did have a fiduciary responsibility to make sure other people's premiums remain unaffected. Freedom after all is about responsibility.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
I hire as few as 10, and sometimes many more day laborers. How do you propose I provide them with health insurance? I pay $10 to $15 per hour cash. I not hiring any permanent employees except under contract. With the business environment the way it is, it might be a year or more before I get another one.
you make it a whole different thread. This is not about you, or a guy in your situation.
me-oww!
Charity mustn't begin in the Ron Paul house. As a small business owner, I work extra hard to be able to afford my employees' einsurance. Does this make me a sap? No it lets me sleep peacefully at night. The most that Ron Paul would have done vor Snyder is to roll him to the church door. What passes for humanity these days is pathetic. When did we get so mean and why are we so mean?
Our ancestors "thanked" the indians, who saved their lives, by giving them blankets infected with smallpox.
When, if ever, have we not been mean?
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
I agree... The powers that be have always been "mean..." but I think it's We The People who are a bit different.
There have always been loud arrogant Bigots but most of the assholes weren't as loud with their hate and schadenfreude. They used to only whisper their nasty bigotry... now they arrogantly wear it like a badge of high pride-full honor.
~albabe (The Writer/Artist Formally Known As Al Gordon)
http://www.comicon.com/gordon/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gordon
The few decades or so since the civil rights were passed are the exception, not the norm, in our history. I think you have a rather selective vision of our track record as a people.
Remember, blacks were lynched in parts of this country until not that recently and not by the government. The KKK had public parades in DC. There were placards who informed Irish and Italians that they needed not apply. I have Chicano friends who have had to prove they were "legal" even though they were born in this country. Etc, etc, etc.
We have made a lot of positive changes as a society, luckily, but they are more recent that we would like to think.
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
Remind me not to agree with you.
~albabe (The Writer/Artist Formally Known As Al Gordon)
http://www.comicon.com/gordon/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gordon
"First, do no harm."
He, as a physician, should realize that as a public health issue EVERYONE needs to have coverage. And it cannot be FORCED "corporate" coverage because there will always be those (like me) who refuse to pay for-profit insurance companies a dime.
It would be more cost effective, safer for our country from a public health standpoint, better from a standards of care standpoint and simply would be better in multitudes of other reasons if the federal government simply opened up Medicare for all Americans from cradle to grave and improved it. Paid for with our tax dollars. I'm quite certain that if all the unnecessary military bases we now have internationally were shut down and our wars of aggression were stopped we could use that "Peace Dividend" for our healthcare. Every other industrialized nation (now China too!) has managed to have Universal Coverage. So can we.
For-profit insurance companies would only need to remain for the uber-rich who want to make sure they get what they want when they want it. (Private rooms etc.)
Dr. Paul should consider two different scenarios. One where only those who can afford it have access to medical care and the other possibility of ALL Americans having access to medical care, even if it means having satellite clinics set up all over the country for preventive care (vaccines, routine physicals, diet/exercise management, smoking/drug/alcohol cessation groups etc.) and acute medical problems.
Prevention is where it's at folks! Heart disease alone is an economic back breaker and DIET ALONE in most cases will reverse heart disease and prevent heart attack! (Check out Dr. Esselstyn's latest book).
God forbid we should have a deadly outbreak of some type of "new" and deadly virus. Imagine the death rate if a vast majority of Americans cannot "afford" healthcare compared to those who can.
He may be right about auditing the federal reserve, right about closing most of our bases all over the world, right about stopping the wars we're in, right about not trying to be the policeman of the world for U.S. corporate interests (Smedley Butler had that one right!), right about the war on drugs, right about preserving, protecting and defending the Constitution etc.
But he is DEAD wrong regarding his bone-headed thinking on healthcare. It's scary to think he is a physician.
And to make matters worse for his campaign he has gotten in knee-deep with the "adviser" Bruce Fein!
Neocon extraordinaire! A neocon who is thicker than thieves with the very neocons Paul denounces!
Abbybwood, R.N.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
They did their own Hypocrite Oath instead: "First, do a credit check"
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
Pauls campaign manager was not denied medical care for lack of insurance. He died of complications from a pre-existing condition that was aggravated by Pneumonia.
But you seem on top of your facts.
Was he penniless and in debt, as the post states? What was the pre-existing condition?
TFR
the individual died a "free" man. as the unfortunate mr.snyder did. i'm certain sen. paul was there at the end, to praise his freedom.
Hey, he got that piece of the American pie. The freedom to fuck off and die.
Rand in progress. Have fun with it.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
He wants churches to pay for people's catastophic illnesses? Aside from the fact that most churches I know of would go bankrupt trying to pay for something like this, where does Paul think churches get their money? Does the individual taxpayer pay a few cents to the Government toward the common good... or does that SAME TAXPAYER have to pay his local church, temple or synagogue several dollars -- voluntarily -- to effect the same good? Paul's definition of Liberty here means "some other suckers will do it for me, at a greater burden to themselves". I don't buy it.
Over and above the Randian world-view's contempt for religion and its institutions, churches (and other types of houses of worship) don't operate by the principles of the market. They make their money from things like tithes (which are becoming rarer these days, I think), voluntary donations and your odd bake sale, jumble and benefit event. Of course, the bake sale et al. don't play by the rules of the Free Market either, since they depend on the parishioners donating their time and materials. So for the Free Market guy to say the public welfare should be served by churches seems a little disingenuous to me. Both churches AND Government are not-for-profit institutions, and the "tyranny" of my having to pay the Gov't for my neighbor's well-being is more than made up for by the good ol' fashioned Capitalist $avings I get by not having to pay more to the church. If I actually belonged to a church, which is a different matter...
Of course, Randians view charity as a vice. "Churches will do it" is just a polite public way of saying, "Go ahead and die."
This crooks and liars article is a spin and a half. The author could have been fair and mentioned that the medical bill passed on to the mom was 400,000 instead of 80,000 as the result of the very same big government special interests that Ron Paul is trying to stop instead of spending time constructing the most derisive sentences possible such as using the plural of "hoots" and adjectives such as "chilling" to describe the ONE audience member who cheered when Wolf asked if we should "let" that person die.
Republicans have lost their way. Ron Paul is a true old school American that is all. He is not a bigot, he is not cold-hearted. He is a reasonable man, highly educated, highly experienced. Don't like him or vote for him but don't vilify him.
He believes free markets, competition will keep medical costs low and available.
The government does not have money. Who pays for socialized health care?
Furthermore, the idea that government is supposed to take care of people IS ridiculous. People take care of people, that is why Ron Paul explains his pre-medicare days as a doctor and how he worked for 3.00 an hour at a hospital.
In reality it is the Democrat that is straight self-serving, expecting government to take care of people instead of the People. Nothing could be more detached from reality either. As it is not human nature to be forced to provide their service for anything but fair market value.
I'm sure they'll back up your wee sociopathic doctor. with no facts to back up their claims, pretty much like you.
me-oww!
meanwhile in the real world, the US is one of the few industrialized countries with a for-profit/free market health care system. And it so happens that said system is ranked as the most expensive in the world, while coming in 37th in quality of service. Yet you claim the path to a cheaper and high quality service is further deregulation, in spite of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
The logical dissonance of the kool aid drinkers is amusing.
Out of curiosity, how is the government responsible for the $400,000 price tag, vs. the $80K that the insurance really wanted to charge?
CTHULHU 2012 "Why vote for a lesser evil?"
Thanx so much for the Heartless, Pompously Egotistical, Pseudo-Intellectual, Xenophobic, Greedy, Selfish, Self-Centered, Self-Involved, Soulless, Antisocial, Anti-Community, Authoritarian, Sociopathic, Circuitous Objectivist drivel. I enjoyed it.
I just love to hear all those amorphous unsubstantial abstract Talking Points like Freedom and Liberty (blablabla)...
Libertarians/Objectivists are Sociopaths with delusions of Superiority.
So... just signed up today to make this post? Or were you another sock-puppet before this?
~albabe (The Writer/Artist Formally Known As Al Gordon)
http://www.comicon.com/gordon/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gordon
Rand would turn in Jews in hiding for some sweet bucks. Arseholes in my country did just that. Ayn Rand must be fecking proud. Fuckers! Turning in people for a buck. The day that will be law is the day i'll be up in arms. The mistake Rand makes is that she think we are all tools.
Sod off!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
"Bless me father for i have sinned. Those crimes that i committed, well, i did 'em again. Empty my soul to empower yours. Lead me blind down the path to salvation's doors."
The right-wingers' comments on here are disgusting, as if everything is naturally the deceased's fault and no one should care. What makes it fucking worse is that Paul was a doctor who could have helped the guy but didn't.
I've had Republicans and Libertarians deny to me in recent years that they are opposed to helping people, but they are. They snarl at the very idea.
And notice how Paul in his response to the hypothetical question about an uninsured thirty-year-old getting seriously ill spat out the words, "He expects the government to take care of him!" Well, that's what happens in most other countries and they have much better health indicators all-round than the US.
Paul and his foul kind think everything should be run like a business, by businesses, and that includes corporate businesses. And at the same time these fuckers claim to be against bureaucracy. Well, any American unfortunate enough to have had to deal with the uber-businesses that are the health insurance companies can attest to the fact that they are some of the most inefficient, clumsy bureaucracies around. That's not nearly as important as the fact that they are opposed to human health, since money is more important than people to these inhuman nutcases.
It is bizarre that so many Americans remain fooled by Ron Paul, thinking he's some kind of super-independent savior. He's the opposite.
The lucky bastard lived the American Dream. Er, I mean died ....in style.
the C & L crowd brings the best of hypocrites and highlights their blatant attempt to categorize everything as "right wing bad!!!!" "left wing, oh soooooo goooood". The jingoistic mentality of the C & L crowd is nothing more than parroting back talking points from the mainstream media. It's actually SICKENING reading comments from individuals who seem to think there are actually two parties battling it out for America, when; reality, history, logic and facts all tend to dismantle this notion of a two party system.
I love how Ron Paul speaks his mind and is actually honest about a subject and what does C & L do? Write up a little article about how his closest political ally died from pneumonia. WTF is that? Seriously? I don't know what it is that ignites the idiotic tribal fight of left/right, but it should really start with critiquing the administration in power, NO MATTER WHAT.
So where are the videos of Obama LYING like a CROOK.
Wallstreet + Wars + Corruption + Torture + CIA=Military + Backroom Deals + Fraud + Abuse + Waste + Exemptions.
Go ahead, try to make Ron Paul look bad for all of you tribalist freaks, but in the end, Obama is failing and the only person speaking truth to power is Dr. Paul (at least on the republican debate stage).
It's one thing to say "the system is broken" it's another to say that someone's honest opinion is "evil" or "immoral", when ultimately the reality is NOT EVERYONE is going to get the CARE THEY NEED, WHEN THEY NEED IT.
Hey where is all that AID money for Haiti?
Is it in Bill's pocket or Georgey boy's?
Being honest is better than lying about nearly EVERY subject you spoke about while running for office.
had the late mr. snyder had coverage for his health, he would have been able to go to a doctor or even an emergency room immediately he felt sick and would have received medication to fight his pneumonia, and he could have gone back to being a productive citizen. total cost to 'society', perhaps $1000. his taxes in the next year would have more than covered the payout. instead, crisis intervention, which failed, and which cost 400x, left the good mr. snyder dead. who lost? all americans, including the famously self-righteous and doctrinaire dr. paul. and a lot of people in tampa got to pour something a lot less pleasant than tea at their sick party last monday.
littlebadwolf
The real story that isn't told by the mainstream media: Kent Snyder was uninsurable due to a terminal illness, yet he still received the best possible care, which unfortunately could not save him. While uninsured patients are charged 2.5 times what insured patients are charged, in practice they are only expected to pay a quarter of what the insured pay. In other words, Kent's arbitrarily inflated $400,000 hospital bill could be taken care of for about $40,000, and as far as I know that's exactly what happened: about $50,000 was voluntarily raised by Ron Paul's supporters and paid to the hospital; the hospital was satisfied and did not try to collect the balance from Kent's estate. It was a voluntary and charitable solution in a broken system. Snyder knew he was not going to last much longer in this world. That's why he quit his job and went to work for Dr. Paul. He wanted to make a difference in the short time he had left. He gave it his all and SHAME on the mainstream media for making a mockery of this man's life and his passion for liberty! Kent Snyder is an inspiration to us all... and his spirit will not be forgotten.
The true reality is that government intervention in healthcare has counter-intuitively driven up the costs of medical attention and the cost of medical insurance. Compare the costs of medical treatments not covered by health insurance, such as laser eye surgery, and you will see that the costs have consistently gone down over time. The free market dictates that companies cannot charge the maximum amount for care. Contrast these prices to the dramatically increasing prices of treatments covered by insurance and government mandate. Though the intention is good in involving the government in healthcare, the results are disastrous. All too often, people do not distinguish intention vs results. The government, via subsidization and regulation, has created growing medical industries of uncharitable bureaucracy. These corporate special interests have disturbingly embedded themselves in with the government bureaucrats in an incestuous marriage, in which we have the wolves tending to the sheep. The corporate special interests lobby for regulations that allow for government-enabled and even government-mandated monopolies. The first director of the American Cancer Society, Clarence Cook Little, resigned in 1954 to become the Scientific Director of the Tobacco Industry Research Council. That move was chillingly convenient for the tobacco industry. “Cut, Poison, Burn” is the video that details just how corrupt one of the most government-trusted agencies in America, the American Cancer Society, has become. They have facilitated monopolization of cancer treatment and stifled innovation. Google it. Let’s remember how Reagan so inspiringly stated, "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem."
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