After revelations that some American soldiers were given Bibles and encouraged to "hunt people for Jesus," the Pentagon on Monday denied allegations that the U.S. military allows its personnel to seek the conversion of Afghans to Christianity. But while the copies of the New Testament translated into Pashtun and jaw-dropping video from Bagram may seem like exceptions that prove the rule of American prohibition on proselytizing by the military, they are just the latest episodes in the disturbing rise in influence of Christian conservatives in the United States armed services.

As Jeremy Scahill detailed in the Huffington Post, the incidents first reported on Al Jazeera are an affront both to the U.S. military code of conduct and America's Afghan allies:

The center of this evangelical operation is at the huge US base at Bagram, one of the main sites used by the US military to torture and indefinitely detain prisoners.

In a video obtained by Al Jazeera and broadcast Monday, Lieutenant-Colonel Gary Hensley, the chief of the US military chaplains in Afghanistan, is seen telling soldiers that as followers of Jesus Christ, they all have a responsibility "to be witnesses for him."

"The special forces guys - they hunt men basically. We do the same things as Christians, we hunt people for Jesus. We do, we hunt them down," he says.

"Get the hound of heaven after them, so we get them into the kingdom. That's what we do, that's our business."

As it turns out, that has indeed been the business of Christian conservatives in the U.S. armed services since 9/11. In word and deed, evangelicals in recent years have aggressively boosted their visibility and influence within the American military.

An early warning came in 2003 in the guise of Lt. General William Boykin.

Boykin, who later became a deputy under secretary of defense, claimed during speeches to prayer groups and breakfasts that militant Islamists sought to destroy America ''because we're a Christian nation.'' General Boykin also explained to evangelical audiences that Muslims worship an ''idol'' and not ''a real God.'' While President Bush expressed his disagreement (noting Boykin "''didn't reflect my opinion" and "it just doesn't reflect what the government thinks"), Boykin remained on the job.

The U.S. Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs has been a hotbed of evangelical activism - and controversy. While cadets in 2004 distributed leaflets at dinner place settings for a screening of "The Passion of the Christ, football coach Fisher DeBerry displayed a sign in the team's locker room proclaiming, "I am a Christian first and last. I am a member of Team Jesus Christ." In May, 2005, Lutheran minister and Captain MeLinda Morton was removed from her post after warning evangelical Christians were trying to "subvert the system" in trying to win converts among cadets at the Academy. A June 2005 study at USAFA described other incidents of religious intolerance, insensitivity and inappropriate proselytizing, and concluded:

"Additionally, some faculty members and coaches consider it their duty to profess their faith and discuss this issue in their classrooms in furtherance of developing cadets' spirituality."

In the wake of the Brady report and complaints from Military Religious Freedom Foundation founder Mike Weinstein (himself a graduate of the Academy), the Air Force in October 2005 moved to withdraw a "code of ethics" document which permitted chaplains to evangelize military personnel who were not affiliated with any faith. ("I will not proselytize from other religious bodies," it read, "but I retain the right to evangelize those who are not affiliated.") Still, even that minor restriction produced an avalanche of opposition from Focus on the Family, the Christian Coalition and other groups which protested that the new guidelines abridged "the constitutional right of military chaplains to pray according to their faith."

Undaunted, the push to proselytize in the U.S. military continues. In 2007, an inspector general's report highlighted ethics violations among current and former officers, including two major generals, for appearing in uniform for a promotional and fundraising video for the evangelical group Christian Embassy. As the Washington Post noted, the report "offers a vivid picture of how inappropriately intertwined Christian Embassy had become with Pentagon operations by the time the video, with its extensive scenes inside the Pentagon, was filmed in 2004." Nonetheless, the New York Times reported earlier this year that military personnel were shown videos featuring football's Terry Bradshaw professing his Christian religion as part of an official military production dealing with depression, suicide and "the importance of faith."

The aggressive campaign for military converts is producing a climate of fear and intimdation in the armed forces. Specialist Jeremy Hall sued the Army after a superior officer interrupted his meeting for atheists and free-thinkers by proclaiming, "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" In another case, Army Specialist and Iraq Purple Heart recipient Dustin Chalker filed a lawsuit after being subjected to a mandatory ceremony that began and ended with a Christian prayer. As he put it:

"The Army enforces policies against racism and sexism, but doesn't bat an eye at these kinds of religious discrimination. Why is it acceptable that soldiers are unable to serve this nation without attending state-led religious practices they find offensive and false?"

Of course, it isn't acceptable, not under Central Command's General Order Number One and myriad other guidelines issued by the Pentagon before or since. Tragically, as the United States wages a global struggle against terrorists espousing a virulent strain of Islamic fundamentalism, fundamentalists in the ranks of the American military are betraying its values - and jeopardizing its mission.

(This piece also appears at Perrspectives.)



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242 comments

I can't really say I'm surprised.

In fact, this could have been expected. Remember, we kill 'em for Jesus, they kill for Satan.

we kill'em in the name of freedom and retribution they kill us in the name of Allah

we kill them in the name of our one true god...oil.
They kill us because of they are sick of the way the western world exploits their resources, and meddles in their politics.

There is a great site that compiled the number of murders committed by God vs. the Devil, and God was over 30,000,000 according to the bible, and Satan was in the low digits. Not quite sure why there are so many that worship the worst mass murderer in the history of mythology, but guess that's their (Republican version = there)thing.
musical interlude...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG-ww7JsnOA

Yes

But Lucifer tortures the souls for eternity. And yes God doesn't accept the souls of unrepentant sinners, so they have no choice but to go to hell, but who forces the devil to torture them? And people have free will to make their choice of where to end up.

Not this guy...I'm an unrepentant heathen.
And I think organized religion is the worst thing to happen to humanity.
It should be banned from all things that are paid for with US tax dollars!

This had been exposed a while back by Americans United for the Separation of Church and State (or just A.U.).

Everyone should be allowed the religious freedoms guaranteed in the Constitution, but freedom OF religion also requires freedom FROM religion in the public arena, otherwise the rights of the minority religions (not to mention the agnostics and atheists) get completely eclipsed by the majority religion(s).

Anyway, this is a group I strongly recommend to everyone to check out. They're out there on the front lines trying to keep the religious-right from enshrining their morality into law, and having us taxpayers pay for it. In addition to trying to keep tabs on efforts by evangelical groups to infiltrate the military, they also stay on top of similar groups that run organizations (again, often getting government funding) which act a bit like the Salvation Army within our prison systems and coerce participation in their prayer meetings and such by giving prisoners preferential treatment if they get "saved" and convert others.

Check out www.au.org for yourself!

I've posted several articles about that group on here and I donate to them when I can.
They do good stuff!

Of course, let's not talk about how many deaths are attributed to the great Atheists of the last century :)

Because I can guarantee that more deaths are attributed to those who believe in some mythical deity or another, than were attributed to atheists.
I don't think you know what you're talkin about there, dumbass.
If you really KNEW the facts, you would not have brought it up.

There was that report of US soldiers doing this in Iraq. One of several reason why theres political resistance to US forces withdrawing from the various war zones.

Plus Blackwater/XE is a xtian merc company. 'Killing for Jesus and shareholders profits'

'On a mission !'

The only religion I follow is what my Guru told me in a dream.

I can't stand Christians.

They think just because Jesus told them to, "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit" that they have instructions to convert everybody they see.

Christians need to shut the hell up and get out of America; they are an embarrassment to us Leftist and Liberals who preach "Free Your Mind".

Besides what has Christianity ever done that was of any good for humanity?

You ain't foolin nobody but yourself there Sparky...you really just aren't very clever at all.

"Don't be such a fuckin dipshit."

My oh my; we Liberals should unite, not divide with intellectual immaturity,

You ain't no liberal, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Republican spokesperson Joe the Plumber wouldn't let the queers anywhere near his children. Because.....wait for it....wait for it.....the bible says it's wrong! http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/04/joe-...

Btw: Joe the Homophobe...er, I mean Plumber says he has had gay friends but he would not let them near his childrens. How many "friends" would you not let near your children? "Friends" like child molesters that I'm sure Joe puts in the same category.

Please GOP, keep this guy front and center!

And Stephen Baldwin was on the teevee, saying, "The Bible was written by god." When did god come down and take pen in hand?

(the bible was written by men, therefore flawed)

I don't think anyone says the bible was written by God, except revisionists like the twisted baldwin boy.

The Bible is the "exact word of God." It doesn't have to be written by his hand.

Pen, mouth, i know a guy who can write with his feet.

*

... W always talks with his feet—or maybe it's that he has his feet in his mouth so often it just looks that way?

So God gave dictation to his chosen?

really It was written by the hand of man & inspired by God, but getting back to the Army selling Christianity or any other religion is wrong, Religion should be a personal thing, the relationship I have with my God is very personal and to have someone trying to change ny beleif if very fucking annoying

Yes

There is nothing more frightening to me than the prospect of a Theocracy.

Who gets to decide what religion I have to follow?

Most people in favor of theocracy assume that everyone will adopt their beliefs. But tell a Southern Baptist that he must become a Mormon?

It's a big tent.

with the scared of a theocracy, but aren't most of the people here condemning the following of these persons religion? The christian religion demands that they attempt to spread the word, to save people from what they consider to be a eternity in the lake of fire. By stopping them from doing so is in effect violating their 1st amendment rights, as much as if the government were to pass a law saying that everyone must worship in the catholic, judaic, or pagan religion, and everyone that didn't would be a criminal.

When you're in the military, your first amendment rights are subverted and you pledge your mind, body, and soul to regulations (at least while in uniform). The soldiers and military personnel in this video are, blatantly, and knowingly, violating regulations. The army's decision, if they refuse to punish these actions, shows preference to a certain religion.

Next of all, there is a difference between speaking the word of God, and using army resources to recruit for a non-common and non sanctioned cause. There is most definitely a problem with forcing subordinates to pray or attend meetings where prayer is featured. As representatives of the US army, you have NO right to use army resources for evangelization.

Thirdly first amendment rights, even for civilians, do have certain limits, specifically when you use your first amendment rights to harm another individual. This includes sexual harassment and incitement. This is kind of a gray area, but when words become actions (in a theoretical sense), and those actions are directly infringing on the life liberty, and pursuit of happiness of another person, then you are not protected.

After this story, I feel able to back a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, but in matters of religious faith.

Acorn had no right to use taxpayer resources for political gain either but it happened. I guess you could say that they were "blatantly, and knowingly, violating regulations" and "if they refuse to punish these actions, shows preference to a certain political party." I guess we all pay taxes we don't like.

WTF does Acorn have to do with anything?

Well brianjoepickled’s comment above pointed to the misappropriation of gov. resources I just thought it a small irony that so few on the left got into a twist about acorns misappropriations. There are similarities.

we're talkin about separation of church and state here...not Acorn...thanks for playing though.

Yeah well I have noticed a few of your posts to be pretty far off topic in the past. Thanks for pointing that out. I guess I just needed a good stretch.

But I've been trying to stay on topic lately...but sometimes I do tend to stray when a troll comes in an hijacks the thread with BS.

I'm not trolling here bro. I am pretty much anchored.

I wasn't implying that YOU were said trolls...I guess I was a bit vague...
I was referring to other well known trollsters that frequent this site in an attempt to wreak havoc.

I must concur. Witnessing and converting individuals is not a matter of putting a gun to ones head and saying you must worship my God.

Jesus didn't operate like that, and as christians, we are supposed to be an example of living life as close to Jesus as we can. I stated in an earlier post that in Revelation 3:20 Jesus says: "Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me." Notice he didn't say he's kicking down the door.

The christian faith has been distorted. It is an individuals choice to be a christian or not. If they choose not to be, it is not the chritians place to judge the individuals decision.

Other things lacking in this that makes it so wrong is the lack of love. Jesus stated that the number one law was to love god with all their heart. It appears that these soldiers have that down, but I don't know for sure. The second law was to love thy neighbor. Though Iraq and Afghanistan is not right next door, our neighbor in this sense is all of humanity. If you don't love them, then as a christian, you should repent.

American King James Version

→ → →But those my enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring here, and slay them before me.

To put it in the proper perspective you have to read the entire text as that one line is from a parable as defined in verse 11. Verse 12 is the beginning, and verse 27 is the close of the parable.

You have to be careful how you define enemies in this case. I'm not scholar, and am not going to work too hard it here. When you put this verse in context, a gift was given unto a man to utilize. However, the man did not utilize it, instead he hid it. To me the enemy is the devil putting fear in the heart of man to perform the work of Jesus.

This man was already a believer, yet he did not take advantage of the gift given to him. Sure the discussion is about making christians of others. But the enemy is not those who don't convert, but the devil and those who misuse the gift Jesus has given them after they have already been converted. 'Enemies' is a common term given to the devil and his minions.

I believe that this scripture is taken out of context and should not be used as an excuse to kill and pillage in the name of Jesus. Jesus is the judge, we as men are not. Therefore, the murder of non-converts is not excused by this text

The "Devil", as you seem to know it, is a recent invention. Take a look at the Hebrew words used and you'll find that the entity you call "the Devil" was a prosecutor for God. 'He' was an adversary of Man in that he grilled Man and was otherwise used BY GOD as a way to test people. The Prosecutor was merely a tool of God, not an enemy of God/Jesus. Nonbelievers were the "enemies" of God. Nonbelievers were the ones to be killed.

'Devil', 'Satan', whatever you want to term him as, is the enemy. He was banished from Heaven as leader of worship. He would like nothing more than to cause division, and to break down any semblence of faith allowing sin to spread. He does answer to God, and seek God's permission to do things on earth. He was crushed by Jesus after the crucifixtion, prior to the resurrection.

It is His job to test us, in order for God to see where our true faith lies. If we succumb, then we have allowed ourself to fall to the enemy. Enemy is a term used frequently referring to 'Satan' in scripture.

According to the latest updated mythology,
Christianity 2.0
What you firmly believe as fact, is nothing more than mythology to some.

and the same goes towards human evolutionary theory for me (as far as humans evolving from another form of primate).

The beautiful thing about choice is, you can choose to not believe in christ, and I won't fault you for it. It's your choice to make. I ask the same respect for my beliefs.

it was kinda rude.

I see your point.

Am i to beleive then that God has a mouth to dictate with?

Well, He did dictate the Fifteen.....CRASH.....Ten Commandments.

thoroughly immoral, irreverent and high-larios!

Brooks is hilarious as was Carlin

beginning, I..." if it was the word of Jehovah/Yahweh/God/Son of and also His own Father/etc.

Except that if a person decides to believe in god, it has to be a god that only fits a narrow mindset of what these preachers believe. If you don't, you are still a evil person.

Does that mean you believe in a god but hate 'em?

just the christian religionists

amazing...you dont see jews, budists or any of the other myriad of religions represented in our armed forces doing this

my god, not even the mormons would be so bold

this was an opporation fully backed by the criminal bush cabal

the man truly wanted a new holy roman empire

The Mormons did use their finances to illegally influence the outcome of an election that wasn't even in their home state. So I wouldn't trust Mormons as far as I could comfortably spit a rat.

the mormon military could be using their canteens for post rite baptisms, you never know.

by election, you mean the vote on Prop 8? Which if so wasn't a election, it was a popular vote on a constitutional amendment. And what was illegal about it? And how many gay rights groups that weren't from CA donate funds for their side of it? If your going to condemn one for it, you have to condemn the other.

Section 501(c)(3) of US Code Title 26, which governs tax-exempt organizations, reads (emphasis added):

(3) Corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literary, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.
(The “otherwise provided” clause does not apply, as the LDS Church, being a church, is a disqualified entity as described in subsection (h).)

"no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in subsection (h)),"

What they did in regards to the vote was not a substantial part of their activities. Which off the top of my head requires what 10% or so of their funds spent to be applied towards political means?

"blessing" that led to this. You won't see something like this from religions that don't place such a high (or place none at all) emphasis on converting people.

the evangelical theology, it is Christianity which part of the tenants is that you spread the word, which honestly which is better, Christianity which wants you to convert people who don't believe what you do, or the Muslim religion which wants you convert or kill non believers.

n/c

.

Both require abdicating your own authority for knowing what is going on.
Both are death orientations. Both defeat natural survival mechanisms.

You realize Christianity and the Muslim religion are interchangable in your argument don't you Tim?

Saying that the Muslim religion wants believers to convert or kill is a damn lie! Certain extremist elements in the Muslim feel that way. As do extremists in the Christian faith.
Christianity has cause the deaths of millions throughout history from open war on different religions.
The Crusades, the Inquisiton, The Witch Burnings.
Do ANY instances come to mind of that many deaths caused by Muslims?

I'm sure his head is chuck full of crap he's swallowed with a grin on his face.

What an ass hole. Makes me totally distrust and even dislike evangelicals as a group.

answer to "God wrote" the bible has always been ,why the fuck would "GOD" write the bible or anything else, for that matter?Btw, isn't Stephen Baldwin the craziest mutha- fucker in the world?Yeah, I think he is because he was ,at one time, a highly regarded actor and after he went in the tank for the F-a-a-r right, all the work he can get is, HORRIBLE acting jobs in HORRIBLE sci-fi channel made for TV movies!Fuck this lunatic!

The bible is a conglomerate storybook composed of mostly Egyptian holy works composed by the Council of Nicene just after the death of Emperor Constantine. It combined several religions calling themselves christians and coopted them to follow the state.

The works that were originally cited as christian were mostly from the Book of the Dead and talks about Astral movements of planets and the sky.

RA, El, Kronos, Yahweh were all the same god and worshipped until the "sun" became dominant. Sun worshipped lasted over 1000 years til finally it was given a 'historical' background and made into a man, Jesus. Fist attempts of course were Joseph and other such forms.

Worship whatever you want, but to do so without studying the backgrounds of these religions only serves blind faith in the leaders of said relgiions.

mentioned in the bible, some of them quite barbaric by modern standards.

http://unreasonablefaith.com/2009/04/29/the-v...

The problem that I have had with religions in general, but more specifically Christianity, is the saying that you "can't argue with God". The unfortunate part of this sentence is that I agree. You really can't; especially if you're like me and don't believe in God (note, I capitalize God out of respect for their choice of religion, something that I can expect will never be reciprocated). So the only thing left for us is to attempt to argue on their own playing field. What I mean here is to argue from scripture. Unfortunately, the majority of the Christians I have difficulties with tend to interpret their scriptures in ways that are beyond absurd and completely self-serving.

SmokinJay

only strengthens my atheism - the last people I would want to be remotely linked to are these deluded fanatics. When this type of stuff comes out of a non-Christian's mouth, they are labeled a terrorist - so why not this American chaplain? We know the answer to that, of course. And the biggest problem with many "Christians" is that they haven't actually read the scriptures they "follow" and that they refer to in order to rule their lives, and they give up their free will (and sometimes their common decency and humanity) to an unseen mystical being -beyond any absurd and completely self-serving interpretations (which I totally agree with you on, for those they actually may have read the books). If they had read them, football would be banned, pigs would be roaming free and alive everywhere, shellfish would be safe...selective yadda, yadda, yadda.

believe in free will, in their opinion that is one of Gods gifts to mankind. They have free will to determine their own destiny. They can follow the word of God or not, the choice is up to them.

Provided you have converted and accept some mythical deity as your own personal lord and savior, oh...and don't forget to tithe...
None of that for me thanks.
Most xtians are holier than thou, arrogant, and to be honest, they're starting to become even more annoying than ever.
I wish they'd all get raptured up already, so I can live in peace without some asshole trying to sell me some religious bullshit.
That's a long wait for a train that don't come.
If these churchies minded their own fuckin business, I'd have no issue...but they can't, or rather, they won't.
I don't go knockin on peoples doors and try to sell people my atheism.
Maybe I should.

My college roommate went nuts, er, was "saved." Before I realized that one cannot have a rational conversation with an irrational person, I'd try to discuss her rather extreme beliefs with her. No matter what I said, her rejoinder was "That's what the devil *wants" you to think!" There's no arguing with that.

a mental health disability (including PTSD). Any time I was faced with negative thoughts and emotions (such as doubts about my faith, or doubts about my mental health prognosis or the concept I had a disability at all), I was told these were lies from Satan, and I either had to ignore them, or deny they were there and that there might be some truth to them.

That starts to mess with your head after awhile. It really interfered with the derealization aspects of PTSD in me, for example.

You can't argue with superstitious zealots who have a baseless belief in a bearded man in the clouds and that the earth was created 6000 years ago when men and dinosaurs roamed the earth together. Religion is like a disease that often kills and people should be treated for it before it spreads. It's far more deadly than Swine flu and the librul news media doesn't blare this on the teevee 24/7 like other less lethal diseases and disorders. We have a cure for religion, its called education, another reason conservatives are against education.

is the best post of the day.

I guess you could see this comong:

I live near Ft. Bragg. My church, like most in this area, tries actively to minister to the soldiers and their families. We do so not to spread hatred or fear, but to share the love of the Savior. To provide comfort when someone finds themselves in situations that Sunday School didn't prepare them for. To grieve with them when a loved one isn't comong home anymore.

There are a host of "Christian" politicos who have fouled the work that our churches are doing with their less than loving hearts.

But the church is a good thing for the troops. And I will always witness to them.

don't belong together at all. If a person is truly religious, they would kill nobody. I don't know, perhaps "thou shalt not kill"? Or is it just another of those God Rules that only apply to certain things? Religion confuses.

I think that Christians should abstain from combat roles. But I recognize that I don't know everything and therefor might be wrong in this.

would seem to be against all the Christian "rules" to be in the military at all, would it not? I gave up on religion when the weekly donations took on a whole new meaning. It was like being begged and threatened to support the church.

I personally served in the medical corp.

There are plenty of places where a Christian can do good works in the military.

My biggest concern was pledging to obey any man. That goes against my beliefs.

Claus. At least he has been spotted by NORAD, unlike that other fellow who even NASA hasn't run across.

might take issue with that.

but the story behind NORAD tracking santa is kinda cute. Back in the fifties? I think. There was a Santa Hotline, that was ran by a local store but in the ad there was a typo that listed conrads(the predecessor of NORAD) number. The DOO their after the first call realized what happened, and told the operators to give Santas position to the kids that called.

Obey God, and leave all the consequences to Him.

Sounds easier than it is, but that's the main rule.

But

if you obey God, how can you be a part of a military whose chief existance is to kill people? Seems kind of hypocritical, but like I said, I gave up on religion.

Of something greater than ourselves that engages in immoral, amoral or downright ugly behavior.

I am an American, but Americans enslaved humans, engaged in genocide and tortured.

Being an American doesn't make me complicit in any of these.

Sin is individual, not a group thing.

If you give money to the church, and that gets used for "wrong reasons" you are complicit; you funded it.

If you fund terorists, in any remote or obscure way, you'll find yourself in Guantanmo Bagram.

(I'm not accusing, but suggest you ask to see a full accounting of where the money goes, if you give. It's coming from womewhere.)

by that line of reasoning, every person in America is complicit in everything that happened at Gitmo and Bagram. Along with every execution done in the prisons, and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Along with anyone living in Canada, they have personal stationed over in Iraq don't they? Heck any citizen of a nation that is in the UN. All of them fund what is going on in one way or another.

Well, actually, I do believe that. My government has given me bloodied hands!! I am partially guilty, indeed. We all are. Try not paying your income taxes though.

I do assume guilt. I lived in a society that let this happen, and I am not above being held accountable. I accept that guilt and feel shame.

You do have control over discretionary donations. And if you donate to terrorists, Uncle Sam wants YOU (in jail). If you donate to a church that supports this, you can stop funding them.

PS No, Canada did not send troops to Iraq, but we have troops in Afghanistan. And most of us want them out.

And Torture

And this one too
Glass houses and all that.

Canada has about 100 exchange officers and 3 ships detailed to the Iraq adventure.

But we can smugly say there are no combat troops in theatre.
So that somehow makes it better, right?

OK. I didn't know. I live overseas. Guilty as charged.

Under Harper's stewardship I am finding it hard to any to feel much of anything but disgust with Canada's direction.

Wonder if Bush has a spare room in his new digs for one of his buddies?
I'll even spot him first and last months rent.

I've got news for you, it's everywhere. It doesn't seem to matter which country you live in. I'm no fan of Harper. Since I've been in Korea (12 years) I'm shocked at what they pass off as democracy. They sent troops to Iraq to curry favour with US business/gov't (one and the same), and for oil, and said so openly in their Congress.

And I pay taxes here, but am not a citizen, and I'm guilty again because my taxes provide funds.

in that Canada has not had a sustained active military presence in iraq. But there have been and I think still are Canadian troops stationed there. And they have been providing defacto support for the war effort.

"Commanding the war: In 2004, Canadian Brigadier General Walt Natynczyk commanded 10 brigades totalling 35,000 troops."
While the troops were not Canadian the commander was a Canadian military officer there on bequest of the Canadian Govt.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?contex...

http://coat.ncf.ca/our_magazine/links/58/Arti...

Another article detailing some of Canadas involvement in Iraq

I know we are not innocent.

I also know, we would not be there, nor would you, if BushCo. hadn't orchestrated the whole thing.

The West is bad, but the package looks pretty. The East isn't much better, just different.

I don't identify with being Canadian. It doesn't mean anything special to me. I have often wondered if I could be a citizen of the planet, with no affiliation to any country. I don't believe any country without guilt.

However, in this modern world, how can I be a non-citzen? How could I work overseas without a passport? How can you live anywhere without paying any taxes? Can I get a passport saying, "From the Ether, Belonging to the Universe"? (Cuz that would be totally cool with me.)

I've often dreamt of living on the high seas, floating, away from all nations, but... (see my problem????)

snarky, but its easy come to the US and say your mexican.

Not to worry. You won't find me in the USA.

I actually thought about putting that on the front of my passport:

"From the Ether, Belonging to the Universe"

But, I somehow don't think those airport people would find it amusing. (Off to Guantanamo Bagram with this one.)

According to quite a few scholars. The actual translation should be, Thou shalt not murder. Which is not quite the same as kill. Killing another in a act of war is not murder. Yes sophistry but a valid use of it. As a christian I don't believe in murder, but if I think someone intends to do harm to my family or myself, you can bet I won't have a problem with killing them.

has personally snuffed over thirty million humans according to the bible, and the apple should not fall far from the most horrible mythological god ever dreamed up, one would assume.

He has snuffed that many lives, but he created us, he has the right to, just like I have the right to snuff how many millions of blades of grass each week when I mow my lawn? And luckily I have not had to kill anyone, and I sincerely hope that I won't have to, but if I do I can pretty much say I won't be happy I did so, I might be happy that I saved my or my families lives, or the lives of other innocents. But being happy that I took a life? No I don't think so.

So much for prosecuting infanticide. I really wish people who were brainwashed about Santa would have gotten it about "God" when they heard about "Santa" and the "Easter Bunny" but some things are very persistent.

"retroactive abortion." /snark

My imaginary friend told me to kill you, like mowing the lawn, he says./snark!

"get off" when I kill what I create. And I might have worded my prior post a bit wrong. Let me put it this way, I "created" my orchard, do I feel I am justified in pruning a few branches that are growing the wrong way? Yes, because I need or wish the trees to grow in the way I desire. Can I make them grow exactly how I wish? Sure with some genetic enginering and putting them in a greenhouse where I control all variables. Or I can let them grow in nature and influence their growth by gentle pruning. While still letting nature(free will) take its course.

Its different when it's conscious individuals, not plants and livestock. Isn't it?

when your talking about lesser lifeforms(yes I'm stating that man is the top of the heap, sorry if that offends any greenpeace or ALF members out there), I'm not going to say the pig I had for dinner isn't conscious, or the asparagus for that matter. But in christianity, judaism, and the islamic religions God is so far above mankind, its about the same as me and my dog at the best. In Christianity we are all gods children, but just because we are his children doesn't mean we are equal, do you punish your children(assuming you have any)or reward them? Or just let them do what they want when they want however they want with no punishment or praise?

.

This is the kind of thinking I would protect my young child from, if I had one.

In Christianity we are all gods children, but just because we are his children doesn't mean we are equal.

When did god say that?

Men say that. Men that want power and money. Cuz if you're talking about god, he's not interested in who's a better athlete, or smarter, or faster, he's talking about 'the souls he, apparently, gave us'. He didn't "dish out" unequal souls. Any inequality is man-made.

(Not that I am Christian.)

PS: You know I'll be back looking for your answer. :-)

Yes

all men are created equal. In the sense that they can and should be allowed to seek their own level. Do I have the athletic genes that the Olympic athletes have? Or the brains of someone like Stephen Hawkins? No, but that doesn't mean they are inherently better than me. They may be better in their field of expertise but that does not make them a better person. And I also agree God is not interested in who's stronger, faster, smarter or richer. What I was talking about when I said we weren't equal was referring to mankind as a whole and god.

...In the sense that they can and should be allowed to seek their own level.

What is this level you speak of and how does one measure it? That you suggest 'level' means it is observable, and verifiable, or we would not be aware: therefore it must be measurable.

What I was talking about when I said we weren't equal was referring to mankind as a whole and god.

Please elaborate.

"He has snuffed that many lives, but he created us, he has the right to,"
Um...who created what?
Man created god in his own image. Hence the bloodlust.

true...but it seems that around the world, god and guns seem to go hand in hand.

Most scholars agree that the commandment is not "thou shalt not kill," but is more properly translated as "thou shalt not commit murder."

Societies have pretty much always differentiated between murder and justified killing, recognizing that sometimes causing the death of another is either necessary or possibly unavoidable.

As usual Repukes are just f&*!-ups. If they would actually use their brain on occasion they would know that the vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexuals, not gays. But no, that would not fit into their myopic little world so they just discard that little tidbit of fact.

I am not positive but I am pretty sure Jesus never said anything regarding hunting people for Jesus. Now it may be mentioned in the bible, but that book was written by many authors each with their own agenda. Actually it is amazing how few direct quotes of Jesus there are in the New Testament. Wouldn't matter anyway, Repukes make up their own little world, delusional as it is, and facts are not a big part of it.

He did say:
"Thou Shall Not Kill"

and

"Inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, you have done it unto me.

Are you assuming that all Christians are republicans, or that all republicans are Christian? Can you be in the US military and not be a republican and not be a christian? Is Obama a christian?

is still hungry.

that most Republicans have only one religion:
Republicanism.

They try to mix it with Christian jargon, but Christ wouldn't join any political party.

And claiming Him as a Republican is blasphemy.

was a mass murderer and killed more people than Adolph Hitler and Mao put together according to his word.

According to speakers at his funeral, he was very well-read, having read a number of religious texts including the Bible, Koran and Book of Mormon as well as transcendentalist authors such as Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau;...

...his younger brother Rich stated that he "is not with God... He was not religious." Another article quotes him as having told then-general manager of the Seattle Seahawks Bob Ferguson in December 2003 that "you know I'm not religious".

Hell, they're doing a fine job of PR and undermining the delicate mission we have over there. No wonder the DHS told us to look out for these fundy loony-bins upon return from combat.

you mean oil theft?

Whatever the mission is, interchangeable and fleeting for the moment as it may be.

They've had so many excuses er reasons for these two invasions, it's to the point where even they don't know anymore.

What would Faux say if Satanists did this !?

COLORADO SPRINGS — Representatives of a local Christian church tried to lure a seventh-grader at Russell Middle School into a church van last week, school district officials said.

As a result, the principal sent students home with a letter to parents asking that they instruct their children not to talk to strangers, and the district has beefed up security around the property at 3825 E. Montebello Drive.

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_12286425

yup

american christianity is now a full fledged cult

sad

I really hate to overgeneralize, but I have to agree with this statement.

committing drive-by preachings...
That's kinda creepy.

Not surprising.This Middle East Crusade will not have a pleasant ending , for the USA. Bush and the GOP. with their crusade , have more than doubled the American ( federal )debt for $ 5 t to $ 10 t ( Plus), and counting.Sorry , but money determines the end game in military conflicts.

No wonder the Taliban are pissed off. And I am not a Taliban fan. The Taliban are a bunch of idiots. So the American right wing religious bozos counter with ' a bunch of idiots'. This is like a cartoon.

80% of the public are clueless and don't know what a Trillion is.

http://econ4u.org/blog/?p=587

I cannot recognize Jesus in a single thing these people say. "Hunting souls"? What the ever-loving fuck is that? The Carpenter would be horrified by such ideas.

What a sick, twisted thing to believe.

"Kill em all and let god sort them out"

funny in an arcade shooter game, horrifying in real life.

Karen or Richard?

What ever happened to serving people? Giving your coat as well, walking the extra mile, et cetera,... There's a part of me that wants to say, good, it would be a good thing to see some real honest servant showing some kindness in a war zone.

But this is not that. This is the ridiculous Americanized packaged for your sanitation version that keeps TV preachers & bands like POD rolling in dough. A 'faith' give to a group of poor people with no identity, no direction, & use it to build an identity around a pyramid scheme they do not understand.

would make them "fishers of men." But you know the fundies, they like their violence, and I guess catching fish in nets isn't violent enough an analogy for them.

I do know what you mean though, "hunting souls" sounds awful, and I don't think that's what Jesus meant either.

existed, "Jesus Christ Superstar" is a bit more uplifting than "Doctor Strangelove", so here's to your theory.

I don't believe they were talking about 'hunting souls' as killing people, they were referring to hunting souls as a metaphor to converting souls to the christian religion. And I agree JCS is a good play/movie.

Except this post grossly misrepresents what happened. ONE chaplain told people to convert. That is far from the military crusading for converts, which is what this site would have you to believe.

Then how do you explain those several copies of the Bible written in Pashtun? Who do you think paid for that? If you haven't guessed by now, you did, I did and all the tax payers did. So you're wrong. The military did whether it was sanctioned by the President, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, or by some Lt. Colonel. Doesn't matter.

is that the copies of the Bible that were translated were most likely provided by a religious organization, heck next time you check into a hotel look in the nightstand, there is a bible that was paid for by, you guessed it, a private religious organization.

but the soldiers are handing them out on MY dime.

they are being handed out on their down time, not while actively on duty.

They're deployed overseas=MY TAX MONEY, your tax money, OUR tax money!
You're splitting hairs here, while trying to defend these Dominionists and their actions.
I truly believe that if these soldiers continue to proselytize their religion in the ME...they will do nothing but simply give creedence to the radical Imam's over there who are ALREADY teaching hatred toward the west and it's beliefs...
Does that sound like sound military strategy?
Not to me it doesn't...it's counterproductive, and is undermining the mission, and endangering our troops and civilians over there, because some throwback troglodyte with a fuckin bible wants to spread his cult.
It needs to stop now. And those responsible need to be discharged or taken out of the ME and sent back home.

If bible's are being distributed during downtime, then no, it is not on our tax dollar. Would you rather they get drunk on your tax dollar? I do question the motives behind their actions, but I'm more interested how Afghan's are responding to it. I haven't heard of conversion squads yet killing to bring Afghans to christianity.

every second we have troops over there. Whether they're on the clock or not, it's on our dime.
Would I rather they get drunk on my tax money? Maybe. They sure as shit wouldn't be shoving jesus down the throats of the Afghan's if they're confined to base if they're drinking.
You question their motives?
Their motives seem pretty damn clear to me.
They're dominionists, they want the entire world to be xtian.
I bet the Afghan civilians might be sick of all religion by now, but I think it's a safe bet to say, they probably don't appreciate American troops attempting to convert them to Evangelicals.
And conversion squads, killing Afghans? Really Pawn...did you read that before before submitting it?
That's ridiculous, and not at all what I was trying to get across.
My point is, that this proselytizing is HUGELY counterproductive IMHO, and may end up endangering the lives of our troops even more, and the lives of the civilians who may wish they'd never seen a bible if they get picked up by the Taliban.
The very LAST thing we need is to lay the groundwork for a holy war.

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