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In an article for The Guardian, Naomi Wolf wrote this:

In other words, for the DHS to be on a call with mayors, the logic of its chain of command and accountability implies that congressional overseers, with the blessing of the White House, told the DHS to authorise mayors to order their police forces – pumped up with millions of dollars of hardware and training from the DHS – to make war on peaceful citizens.

This follows the ongoing meme that DHS has coordinated the Occupy crackdowns on a national level; that they are orchestrating the violence behind the clearing of Zuccotti Park and others. Wolf carries this to her conclusion:

So, when you connect the dots, properly understood, what happened this week is the first battle in a civil war; a civil war in which, for now, only one side is choosing violence. It is a battle in which members of Congress, with the collusion of the American president, sent violent, organised suppression against the people they are supposed to represent. Occupy has touched the third rail: personal congressional profits streams. Even though they are, as yet, unaware of what the implications of their movement are, those threatened by the stirrings of their dreams of reform are not.

It's a factless, incendiary assertion dripping in hyperbole, grounded in speculation that's been going on for a couple of weeks now. It began with a tweet. A tweet from Michael Moore speculating that the coordination seemed like something being coordinated by DHS and sanctioned, nay, possibly even requested, by the Obama administration.

Here are the two links Wolf provides as evidence: One to Wonkette; the other toWashingtonsblog.com. Both articles point back to this absurd article on the Examiner.com site (a very, very right-wing Phil Anschutz, write-out-of-your-butt-with-no-evidence kind of site). Washingtons Blog goes one step further, updating with this:

(And for those who are understandably doubtful about Examiner.com as a news source,here’s an AP story from a couple hours ago that verifies everything except the specific mention of DHS coordination.)

Got that? The headlines on both of these stories (Wonkette and Washingtons Blog) were splayed across the sites in very large heading fonts: “Homeland Security Coordinated….” and yet the AP confirms everything BUT DHS coordination. Still, that didn’t stop Wolf from ignoring the AP story entirely and writing a piece for the Guardian that included links to bolster her argument that are as factless as her hyperbole, and stem from right-wing sites with anonymous sources.

No one has a source, no one has any evidence, and the originating story which Michael Moore and now Naomi Wolf breathlessly spread quotes an anonymous source with the promise of still more to come in the future, from a "reporter" for Examiner.com who no one seems to know. Miraculously, this "reporter" got a tip from DHS that no national reporter received, and even though Mr. Ellis walks back his original accusation, he promises updates in the future. Well, it’s the future. It’s two weeks later and crickets from Mr. Ellis. Mission accomplished, though. Ask people who are paying attention to the OWS movement and they’ll swear up and down that yes, it was coordinated by DHS because MICHAEL MOORE and now NAOMI WOLF say so.

Truth: We don’t know. It isn’t completely out of the realm of possibility for mayors to consult with DHS. After all, that’s what they’re there for. To help local and state governments deal with threats, real, rumored or perceived. At best, one can conclude that maybe they did, and maybe they didn’t coordinate, and if they did coordinate, no one knows to what extent they did or whether there was any sort of "blessing" and/or mandate from DHS to what they ultimately chose to do.

The best anyone can say is "maybe". But if Wolf were not trying to stoke an international narrative she has chosen, she would have had a look at Portland, where there is some evidence that DHS was consulted because the occupiers were adjacent to federal land.

There is another line of thinking out there that runs directly counter to the federal-coordination theory: Ruiz wouldn’t comment on this, but one well-placed city source said, in fact, that the feds were mostly inclined to leave Schrunk Plaza open. It was city officials who cajoled them into getting on board—lest they watch most of Occupy’s camp merely move several hundred feet south onto federal land. Which would have been awkward for the city. But also interesting.

Should you accept as fact the idea that the feds were reluctant and the city pushed them along? NO. Why? Because it’s attributed to an anonymous source with nothing to back it up, which makes this theory as worthy as the DHS coordination theory, or just speculation with no facts behind it.

Josh Holland at AlterNet also notes:

Ironically, the occupation that arguably maintains the best relationship with local officials is Occupy DC, and the Washington, DC government is directly overseen by Congress.

Look, if DHS somehow instructed these cities to dress up their cops in riot gear, pepper spray kneeling protesters, use billy clubs to keep them from crossing imaginary borders, and ultimately throw the lot of them out, then yes, by all means shake your fist. But it's irresponsible for Wolf to publish such incendiary accusations -- accusations of real, physical civil war -- in an international publication, to cite magical articles with unsourced accusations and call it fact. Some might actually call it a lie.

Wolf's hyperbole does harm to the OWS movement and those honest people out there conducting themselves peacefully and with clear intent, because she intentionally tried to stir the fires of anger and discontent and anti-government sentiment on an international level. She should have to either retract or clarify her accusations.

Update Joshua Holland has written his own excellent response to Wolf's specific accusations.

When you don’t “connect” wholly disparate “dots,” what you get is far less dramatic. Mayors in a handful of cities, responding to local political pressures, decided to break up their local occupations — decisions that were announced to the press well in advance — and were advised as to how best to do so.

One doesn’t have to like that fact to recognize that it’s hardly shocking, and anything but a sinister assault on local communities’ autonomy.

Also, regarding PERF's* involvement, an interview with the director in The Boston Phoenix:

But what is PERF? And what role, if any, did it play in the police actions? According to PERF Executive Director Chuck Wexler, not the one he had hoped.

His organization is more concerned with improving police practices and policies, he said. He cited a report PERF published in June, which gives advice that runs exactly counter to how Occupy has been handled in most cities — emphasizing communication, respect for the First Amendment, and avoidance of violent methods at nearly all cost.

"Over the years, we've taken on racially biased policing, violent crime, the Gates-Crowley thing in Cambridge," he said. "It's not always pretty, and it's not easy, but I think we owe it to the public to identify best practices."

*PERF is the Police Executives' Research Forum, a group who views themselves as a progressive organization dedicated to reducing police brutality and establishing best practices for police officers in various situations. Until recently, they've been a big target of the right wing for their support of gun control laws.

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371 Comments
EL SEGUNDO's picture

hmmmm? Naomi Wolf or Karoli? not even close. Naomi Wolf by a mile.

MJPollard's picture

How about, "waiting to get all the facts" versus "pull anything out of your ass and publish it as fact"? Not even close: waiting to get all the facts by a mile. And which of these two people are advocating waiting to get all the facts? Hint: it's not your darling Naomi Wolf.


"Whatever your particular problem is, I promise you, the Republicans are not the least bit interested in solving it. They are interested in two things, and two things only: making you afraid of it, and telling you who's to blame for it."

vonBeavis's picture

How is it you're confused, MJP? Karoli pointed out that the association between DHS and the mayors for a nationwide conspiracy to put down OWS isn't proven, that it Wolf's not going on hard sources and factual evidence, any you attack the messenger?

You must be quite a fan of Naomi, and you've already been fired and left your wallet in El Segundo. Either way, you're wrong.


Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders.

vonBeavis's picture

The address is to Naomi of El Segundo, not MJP.


Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders.

insipid's picture

Plus, they're not really acting in a coordinated manner. Some areas are "cracking down" some are pretty cooperative. If there were a coordinated effort from on high, i'd expect them to be all treated the same way.

. . . because karoli's hero must be assumed innocent and pure?

And I note there's no denial by the White House or DHS linked in the article. Seems like that would be quite appropriate given the circumstances.

Speculating that quite similar crackdowns on free speech across the nation might have federal coordination is hardly out of bounds. Trusting in a president that has repeated shown, at best, a casual indifference to constitutional rights and, at worst, outright hostility to them, is far more illogical.

And notice the hedge: golly, even if they're doing it, it's appropriate, but how dare anybody even think that they might be doing it?


Corruption favors the wealthy.

However, in this case DHS has denied the involvement that the Examiner "reporter" claimed and he even walked back his claim a bit the next day and reported multiple denials from DoJ and DHS. Salon reported a clear on-the-record denial at http://www.salon.com/2011/11/17/dhs_denies_ow...

So, I guess you can join the club of people like Naomi Wolf and Michael Moore who repeat outright unverified lies because the lie supports what you really want to believe.

Naomi Wolf picked up this bullshit a week after it has been soundly debunked and is making a case with her imagination about what it should mean. It seems suspicious to me that she does so in a UK-based publication whose audience is mostly non-Americans and in it she claims positively absurd things about the way the US government operates which would seem plausible to people who live in nations with UK-like Parliamentary systems. Her screed is bullshit in the narrow Harry Frankfurt sense: careless falsehood not seriously believed by the speaker, used to bolster some larger argument that doesn't completely depend on the bullshit but lacks adequately compelling justification.

fiver's picture

Funny how you didn't quote that "denial."

“Any decisions on how to handle specifics situations are dealt with by local authorities in that location,” Chandler said.

He's doing exactly the same thing Carney did. He's denying final decision making in the White House and carefully avoiding issues like: logistical support, federal surveillance, provision of the weapons used on protesters or recommendations on what type of excuses to use.

Strange how they're tracing exactly the same phrasing when all it would take is: "No. We've had nothing to do with this."


Corruption favors the wealthy.

JohnDenver's picture

Seek help.

Your ODS has clearly reached a dangerous stage.

. . . to reach the logical stage.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

insipid's picture

There's no denial that could be good enough for fiver. He's already decided that Obama is the root of all evil everywhere.

fiver's picture

But continue to believe it you wish. Hero worship and irrational feelings of victimization often go hand in hand.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

insipid's picture

Well, that's a non-denial denial. So by your logic, my statement is perfectly true.

Actually are clear denials.

But if you can't quite understand the difference, it would explain a few things.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Andy K's picture

...you said that. He's deduced, from what you have written in the past, that this is true. You've demonstrated the behavior- repeatedly- so...Prove that you think differently.

Not so valid when the same logic- or logical fallacy- is applied to you, huh?

fiver's picture

Aren't you supposed to spout off with some Wikipedia link to an argumentation technique that even a middle schooler could tell doesn't apply?


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Andy K's picture

...your hypocrisy here? Gotta change the subject?

That's a fail, fiver. Fail.

fiver's picture

Just pointing out how desperate you appear to regain any type of credibility on this thread.

You were picking at chickenscat. And you were caught.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

insipid's picture

So now, out of the blue, someone who DOES link things is considered off?

fiver's picture

Just a reference to Andy's confusing an initial burden of proof with an answer or reaction to a specific statement.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

insipid's picture

No, it's not clear at all. Were you referring to the fact that a White House denial could be good enough if stated differently or were you referring to my assertion that you think Obama is the root of all evil?

I believe that the statement saying that DHS provided advice but did not direct individual actions is a completely clear one. The only one that could interpret it as a non-denial denial is someone with ODS.

fiver's picture

Never decided it. Never believed it.

Good enough?

And I did note your admission. We agree completely on that (I think). That non-denial seemed to me a clear indication that the feds gave advise and support to the cities, but left the final decisions in the municipalities' hands.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Andy K's picture

Now you have to prove that you never believed it. Your standard.

fiver's picture

I pointed out that when asked about federal coordination, the White House didn't address coordination, but deliberately left open that they may have been coordinating but that the decision making was left up to the municipalities.

And I did say I never believed it. Try reading that very short comment again . . . slowly.

Or better yet, hop back over to the miscarriage thread and get your schadenfreude on. This whole OWS thing has exposed you quite a bit.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

insipid's picture

That's about as good a denial as it can be. If they had said, "We deny taking any part in the attacks" they would of been criticized, correctly in this case, for leaving out the fact that NHS provides support. So instead they said "they provide support, but did not order individual actions." That is NOT a non-denial denial but a statement of facts. Yes it does require a small amount of nuance, but still a categorical denial.

fiver's picture

Is that the new math?

And while Obamabots may relish seeing peaceful protesters attacked for disagreeing with Our Leader, many in this country have a problem with the administration giving advice and support on how to attack peaceful protesters.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

insipid's picture

Where have they been attacked for "disagreeing with our leader"? On the contrary it is my contention that one of the primary goals of OWS should be the reelection of Barack Obama.

A categorical denial CAN have nuance. The idea that it can't is one normally favored by the right.

fiver's picture

That's a big OWS goal right now. It's why you see all those "Re-elect Obama" signs everywhere.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Edwin's picture

On the contrary it is my contention that one of the primary goals of OWS should be the reelection of Barack Obama.

You clearly don't get #OWS. I bet you wonder what they're/we're protesting.


"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!

Andy K's picture

Actually, a bit more lenient, because insipid didn't take any quotes out of context. For example, you quoted the DHS spokesperson and claimed that the quote was a non-denial denial, but in the previous paragraph the author of the piece wrote:

DHS has not been coordinating evictions with local law enforcement agencies, DHS spokesman Matt Chandler told Salon.

Hell, read it in context:

DHS has not been coordinating evictions with local law enforcement agencies, DHS spokesman Matt Chandler told Salon. The only exception, he said, was Portland, Ore., where the Federal Protective Service arrested protesters in federally owned Terry Schrunk Plaza.
*
“Any decisions on how to handle specifics situations are dealt with by local authorities in that location,” Chandler said. “If a protest area is located on federal property and has been deemed unsanitary or unsafe by the General Services Administration or city officials, and they make a decision to evacuate participants, the Federal Protective Service will work with those officials to develop a plan to ensure the security and safety of everyone involved.”

No coordination with the exception of a specific issue in Portland, where the city property abuts the federal property (we've got something similar every first full weekend of June when our Festival of the Arts is held, partially, on Vandenberg Plaza, which is home to our city, county and federal buildings- the feds would make any arrests on their part of the property if events at the face-painting tent got out of hand, but the Feds don't coordinate the Festival, or policing matters at the rest of the venues).

The dishonesty of your argument is appalling on both the factual and logical levels. Quit commenting from the gut. Use your head.

Pretty basic stuff really.

A quote often has punctuation called "quotation marks" around it. Like this:

“Any decisions on how to handle specifics situations are dealt with by local authorities in that location,” Chandler said.

He never denied federal assistance and advice, just the decisions.

Yawn. Been through this. Repeatedly.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Ape-Man's picture

We can all count on you whenever you can turn a story against Obama, regardless if it is a story about Obama or not. Surely even you are aware of this?


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

insipid's picture

Yeah, i noticed his attacks on Michelle so perfectly echoing the right wings "she orchestrated the attack to be a victim" talking points.

fiver's picture

And keep rotating the attacks.

Hey, if I were stuck defending this administration, I might do the same (no, I wouldn't).

But it is good to see the bots get brave when they're in the majority. Democrats sure didn't.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Rich H's picture

did I miss anything?

fiver's picture

~


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Andy K's picture

...when you decided to argue that you choose to believe unsubstantiated rumors rather than documented facts. When confronted with the accepted objective standard of journalistic ethics, you decided to supplant them with your own subjective standards.

fiver's picture

Andy, you can point to nothing regarding what I chose to believe.

Go check out some videos showing protesters getting beaten sprayed and gassed. It's cheaper than porn and appears to have the same effect on you.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Andy K's picture

Just change the subject again. Like you did right there in your first comment on this thread. karoli points out that Wolf is basing her claim of Obama-initiated civil war on the basis of a single, anonymous and unsubstantiated source and you change the argument with the use of a logical fallacy.

You have not addressed Wolf's shitty attempt at journalism, and, in fact, have tried to troll this into an argument about everything you see bad about Obama. That isn't the topic.

But, ironically, by employing the same shitty techniques that Wolf has been using, you allow us to focus back in on those shitty arguments. So thanks. I guess.

fiver's picture

Would that include writing this post and not including the White House's response when confronted with this issue?

Or would that just be a failure of basic journalism techniques?


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Andy K's picture
No.

It would include not getting independent verification of an anonymous source's claims before publication.

But I don't like where our country is now, nor do I like where it's heading.

You do.

We just disagree.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Ape-Man's picture

Those are different issues than a co-ordinated attack on the OWS movement. We all know the DHS has helped militarize the police.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

Ape-Man's picture

No denial? Isn't that like asking someone to deny they are beating their wife?


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

fiver's picture

And I've quoted the White House response a few places here already.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Ape-Man's picture

Excellent point MJPollard. I agree with Karoli that there are motivations other than knowing the truth, to those that promote the idea that the DOJ is organizing a war on the Occupy movement.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

Milquetoast's picture
yup

Naomi predicted much of what is happpening in her writings.

Karoli did not.

I find it amusing how Karoli refers to Naomi Wolf's many predictions that have come to pass as an "international narrative"...that Wolf is stoking....

Kudos to Karoli for not calling Wolf a conspiracy theorist at least!


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

miss_kitty's picture

karoli is talking about Ms Wolf backing her claims with sources and facts. Wolf's not predicting here; she's saying "A happened because of B. Take my word for it." karoli is saying "Let's see the credible proof of that."

I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but reread until you get it. I mean if you're concerned about facts. Because your comment about karoli is as baseless as Wolf's claims.

Milquetoast's picture

...with El-Segundo.

When the facts are investigated...we will see who is right.

(my money is on Naomi)


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

My bet's on Wolf and Moore too.

Milquetoast's picture

although I don't have direct evidence of a conspiracy at the DHS,
I do know that Janet Napolitano has been giving assloads of homeland security grant money to cities all over the U.S. to buy military equipment for local police forces.

here is just one of hundreds of stories I could site.

http://www.kbtx.com/state/headlines/Montgomer...


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Ape-Man's picture

Yes, we do know that - it's not at issue here.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

lsamsa's picture

I'm speculating out of order & if I'm wrong...but when you mention 'predictions'...I'm wondering if you're thinking of Naomi Klein (author of The Shock Doctrine.)
Naomi Klein has predicted most of what is happening...very insightful lady.
Again, sorry if I'm out of order here.

Milquetoast's picture

discusses her book "the end of America...a warning to young patriots"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjALf12PAWc


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Kreskin's picture

There ya go , looks like at least one person here is doing just that , confusing Naomi Klein with Naomi Wolf .

Milquetoast's picture

...is that?


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

lsamsa's picture

Kreskin means me.
Sorry.

Milquetoast's picture

I thought it was a legit question that was asked politely.

(no prob)

I actually did once get them confused a long time ago...


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

lsamsa's picture

I should know better than to post before I've had at least two cups of caffeine.

Kreskin's picture

No , you rightly pointed it out , that some people may be confusing Naomi Klein with Naomi Wolf .

Milquetoast's picture

...are they?


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Ramona's picture

That would be me. I wrote Klein when I meant Wolf. My apologies to N. Klein. DEEP apologies.


Rise up, Voices! Speak truth to power. Bark orders to justice. Sing praises to the good. Beg alms for the poor.
http://ramonasvoices.blogspot.com

cund_gulag's picture

Wolf is NO Klein!

MaryK's picture

It's good to point out that repeating unfounded rumors is NOT journalism, but gossip.

We can clearly see who's on which side here.


"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman

Ape-Man's picture

Right. We cam all spread rumors. We are not all good at reporting and considering facts.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

DaveZ's picture

but the president's lack of leadership when it comes to OWS is obvious. All of these crackdowns on protesters has happened under his watch. He has yet to condemn Bloomberg or the Oakland police or even the UC Davis incident. When he was "mic check" 'd the other day Obama declared the protesters were the reason he ran for public office. Yet he has allowed mass violations of the 1st Amendment, so personally I see him being long on words and short on action. But it's much much worse if he coordinated the removal of OWS camps. It shows which side he's really on, unfortunately.

Different Anonymous's picture
.

Bingo.

It seems a bit tangential whether it was ordered by the WH or not, they have done *nothing* to stem it, or even speak out against it. These are Americans Mr. President, these are your constituents. Are you with us, or...?

mymy's picture

And when mic checked recently, he gave a very winning response, saying the reason he ran for president was on behalf of the young people like those of OWS in the room. Rather different from the Bloombergs, the Gingriches, the Cantors, so why pretend there's not a hair's breadth between them and the President?


MyMy

BigDaddyMalcontent's picture

"You're the reason I ran for office," not that he ran on their behalf. There's a difference. It could be that by "you're the reason..." he meant, "I knew I could exploit this crowd for votes."

"If Obama didn't turn out to be the lying, war-mongering corporatist shill he is today, those people (OWS) would all be stumping for his reelection right now instead of protesting. It's Obama who has been the final proof that voting for someone does not give one a voice in Washington. None of the talking heads are saying it, but the protests are an indictment of his presidency." -- Jason Douglas

kaylaspop's picture

follow Mike & Naomi down Hamsher's rabbit hole, that'll do a world of good.


It's not all or nothing.

BigDaddyMalcontent's picture

Obama down Wall Street's snake pit.

DaveZ's picture

I think the media distorts much about his presidency. But Bill Clinton was right that he's lost the narrative. His constituents/supporters shouldn't have to fight his PR battles all the time.

vonBeavis's picture

Have to agree.


Men are basically smart or dumb and lazy or ambitious. The dumb and ambitious ones are dangerous and I get rid of them. The dumb and lazy ones I give mundane duties. The smart ambitious ones I put on my staff. The smart and lazy ones I make my commanders.

DaveZ's picture

It would be nice to see a progressive sweep of Congress next year with Obama in office. OWS can either be a yes vote or a wasted 3rd party protest vote. Unfortunately, until campaign finance reform is implemented we still need the stupid Dems.

BigDaddyMalcontent's picture

"co-opting the movement" with "joining the movement."

DaveZ's picture

Priority 1 for the 99% is keeping Republicans out of office, and removing them wherever possible. Obama still needs their vote to win a second term. OWS can't do more than talk tough until they offer up a viable candidate to replace Obama.

BigDaddyMalcontent's picture

usurping a movement to make it serve some other purpose other than what it was intended for. Like Obama, the only thing OWS means to you is votes to prop up a failed party. If Obama had governed the way he campaigned, there would be no OWS movement. The reason they're in the streets is because they didn't get the "hope & change" they were promised.

DaveZ's picture

In between calling me a partisan or hypocrite, neither of you even acknowledge that OWS has no viable candidate. Accept political realities for what they are. I would far more prefer to see OWS lead to an Obama 2nd term than see them Ross-Perot the vote into a Republican presidency. I know what the term "co-opt" means and I meant it the way it sounded. OWS is so new that it has only altered the national conversation with respect to things like income inequality and Wall St corruption. That's it, to date. But they've been very effective. It won't stay that way without a solid political strategy outside the arena of protesting. What OWS really should focus on is co-opting Congress. Those races are far more likely to be won by populist, 3rd party or Dem candidates sympathetic to the movement. Like Alan Grayson, for example. The presidency is impossible given existing party entrenchment. Change the laws on campaign finance and let the spineless Obama lame duck sign them while heaping globs of credit on himself. You will get your real change after that happens, but not before.

Milquetoast's picture

..."they got bailed out we got sold out"

and you still like Obama even though he bailed out the very banks that OWS is pissed off at...

then you have some serious problems I think.


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Edwin's picture

Priority 1 for the 99% is keeping Republicans out of office, and removing them wherever possible.

Another person who is totally CLUELESS about OWS.


"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!

DaveZ's picture

Not a description. Good lord! Do I really have to make the case for why Republicans have to go? I figured we're already a decade past the point where that should have already been understood.

Edwin's picture

I thought by 99% you meant OWS. Perhaps you did not.

If you did mean OWS, why is it their job? Why not yours? Or are you down at a General Assembly talking about it now? Perhaps you're donating money to OWS to help?


"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!

Milquetoast's picture

...someone who bailed out the banks...(Obama) ...co-opt them.

OWS does not walk around in the street chanting "they got bailed out we got sold out"

for nothing.

(keep dreaming)


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Peter G's picture

Count on old Glenn when you need a little manufactured outrage. That's awesome. Except I'm not sure why any sane politician of any stripe would want to co-opt the strange Cargo Cult version of democracy that is OWS. I watched a live feed on one of those general assemblies and it was like watching an Entmoot. And I don't speak Entish. Drum circle anyone?


Hasa Diga Eebowai

Edwin's picture

Except I'm not sure why any sane politician of any stripe would want to co-opt the strange Cargo Cult version of democracy that is OWS.

Amazing what you can see from your comfy house on a live feed, isn't it? You must be an expert.


"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!

Kreskin's picture

So is your naivety , what exactly can Obama do about it , order the states and cities , the governors and the mayors , how to handle their local affairs ? Publicly condemn them ? Get real . I swear Bernie Sanders could be President and many on the left would be relentlessly attacking and tearing him apart too .Here once again we have someone ( Wolf in this case ) yelling fire ! fire ! fire ! when there is no fire .

Ape-Man's picture

Yes, if Bernie Sanders was President, people would be relentless attacking him. The President is not a powerful enough figure that he can do it all alone, unless he becomes an imperial president, and a unitary executive - something Obama went to Washington to put an end to. Doing it right takes a little longer.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

DaveZ's picture

Publicly condemn those who use violence against non-violent protesters. Stand up for their 1st Amendment rights as the head of the executive branch should. These are not bad things and only political cowardice or his approval of the tactic prevents him from doing so. OWS are his own constituents. He was very willing to condemn foreign regimes for their abuses. It is fair to expect a leader to fight domestic injustice also.

Ape-Man's picture

Well, the foreign regimes are slaughtering their people, so there is a difference in degree between what's happening here and what's happening over there.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

Annoyed Canuck's picture

How does shutting down the OWS camps constitute "mass violations of the 1st Amendment"? Since when does the right to free speech and freedom of association mean that people are allowed to commandeer public parks and private land (the Brookfield-owned land in New York OWS has camped on) indefinitely, for months at a time? Where does this end?

OWS's strategy is deeply, perhaps fatally, flawed. The Occupiers have painted themselves into a corner with their permanent camps. They have turned what could have been a broad social movement into series of turf fights with city governments - ironically, the one level of government that has almost no power to address the OWS agenda.

The occupations should have been limited and targeted. The grubby marathon winter encampments are counterproductive. Pack up the tents, go home and get a better plan.

Milquetoast's picture

...also includes freedom of ASSEMBLY.

1st Amendment ...copy/paste:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

(Ignorant Canadians should mind their own business)

The first amendment is much more than just free speech.


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Milquetoast's picture

...official organizations like Churches and other groups!

It does not apply to individuals.

If I want to go down by myself and protest with a big sign...I don't need a permit.


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Andy K's picture

Whether you disagree or simply fail to understand is on you.

Cox is basically the same conclusion reached in the Skokie/Nazi case: There can be rules that limit the use of public land for assembly, but there can't be different rules for different groups limiting use of public land for assembly.

The "rules" Bloomberg invented to kick them out didn't exist when the protest started.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Ape-Man's picture

Yes, and that is one place where Bloomberg exceeded his authority.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

I bet there are plenty more if we look hard enough.

Same goes for these mayors and cops.


"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!

Peter G's picture

escaped you. It doesn't mean non-violent btw. If you think otherwise grab yourself a bullhorn and wander around your own neighborhood at three o'clock in the morning giving your views. You can be as non-violent as you like and you're still going to have your ass arrested. Nor by the way does this universal right you claim entitle any self-selected group to trample on the rights of their fellow citizens. Along with rights Milky come actual responsibilities too.


Hasa Diga Eebowai

jonnyj's picture

Most of these points have been dealt with, such as that "private park" private rights were traded for more (vertical) public space to make money on. It is ceded to public use because the company is making obscene amounts of money off the public space.

It was traded in a very profitable deal for the company at public expense.

ikalbertus's picture

have been violating the 1st amendment for quite awhile. In most major cities a group that wants to hold a demonstration has to apply for a permit and pay a fee. In NYC they have to request permission to use a bullhorn and are usually permitted to hold a demonstration in an area set aside where they won't be noticed. I do agree that the present strategy will not work much longer and new strategies will have to develop. Nevertheless OWS has succeeded in shifting the issue from the deficit to jobs and crony capitalism. The Democratic party has not been able to frame an issue since . . . ???

VBobier's picture

For the courts to decide, Repugs would use It and quote States Rights were being trampled on, damned If You do and damned If You don't. Ya fight on a ground of Your own choosing, not on Repugs ground.

Ape-Man's picture

But it's much much worse if he coordinated the removal of OWS camps.

Operative word here is if.

And then there's the claim by NW that war is being waged, based on this if. This is a jump to conclusion based on an if.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

Janet's picture

DHS or no DHS the bulk of her story hits the nail on the head.

I was still deeply puzzled as to why OWS, this hapless, hopeful band, would call out a violent federal response.

That is, until I found out what it was that OWS actually wanted.

The mainstream media was declaring continually "OWS has no message". Frustrated, I simply asked them. I began soliciting online "What is it you want?" answers from Occupy. In the first 15 minutes, I received 100 answers. These were truly eye-opening.

I was still deeply puzzled as to why OWS, this hapless, hopeful band, would call out a violent federal response.

That is, until I found out what it was that OWS actually wanted.

The mainstream media was declaring continually "OWS has no message". Frustrated, I simply asked them. I began soliciting online "What is it you want?" answers from Occupy. In the first 15 minutes, I received 100 answers. These were truly eye-opening.

The No 1 agenda item: get the money out of politics. Most often cited was legislation to blunt the effect of the Citizens United ruling, which lets boundless sums enter the campaign process. No 2: reform the banking system to prevent fraud and manipulation, with the most frequent item being to restore the Glass-Steagall Act – the Depression-era law, done away with by President Clinton, that separates investment banks from commercial banks. This law would correct the conditions for the recent crisis, as investment banks could not take risks for profit that create kale derivatives out of thin air, and wipe out the commercial and savings banks.

No 3 was the most clarifying: draft laws against the little-known loophole that currently allows members of Congress to pass legislation affecting Delaware-based corporations in which they themselves are investors.

When I saw this list – and especially the last agenda item – the scales fell from my eyes. Of course, these unarmed people would be having the shit kicked out of them.


We could certainly slow the aging process down if it had to work its way through Congress.
- Will Rogers

Ramona's picture

Wouldn't that be the National Guard? They're nowhere in sight.

(By the way, Lyndon Johnson dragged his feet during the Civil Rights Movement when violence was erupting everywhere and the calls for National Guard intervention were growing louder and louder. However, once he gave the word and they moved toward the South, there was no question who was going to win that battle.)


Rise up, Voices! Speak truth to power. Bark orders to justice. Sing praises to the good. Beg alms for the poor.
http://ramonasvoices.blogspot.com

Captain Kangaroo's picture

Let them eat cake.
Reign of Terror
At least 16,594 people died under the guillotine...

peachblossom's picture

Thank you, karoli. I have always paid attention to Michael Moore and Naomi Wolf. They have often spoken for me and informed me. But your point about sourcing for THIS story is valid. In the echo chambers both right and left, it's easy to obscure the fact that no real source for information has been given. You are right that the story stated as fact is a definite maybe. Let's not be so enthused about the prospect of "civil war" on authority that we lose our minds.

Kreskin's picture

I think your warning is be too late peachblossom .

She seems to be desperate for attention -- getting herself arrested at OWS in a high profile way (I really hadn't heard much about her in quite awhile). And Moore is one of those guys who, I think, has outlived his usefulness as a critic, He, too, is looking for headlines. Shame on both of them.


MyMy

coordinated by the Feds, or is it more likely that a group of mayors and governors happened to be on one huge conference call and decided it would be good to coordinate the crackdowns?

One seems highly more probable, even if Obama wasn't involved (I get that's the issue here). Later facts may come to light that show Wolf and Moore were correct.

Andy K's picture

It's not like there's been something around since the end of Hoover's term named The United States Conference of Mayors.

Rich H's picture

duscuss security issues.

Whatever.

Andy K's picture

Common issue, existing network.

Whatever.

Edwin's picture

What's new to the mix is DHS. Surely they're just watching the skies for incoming though.


"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!

Geronimo.'s picture

Here is what I know, we have the enemy belligerents act of 2010, and we have a bill that would define the USA as a battlefield and Citizens as the enemy and would authorize indefinite detention of anyone anywhere w/o trial. As a redditor said, this is Nazi Death Camp legislation. What do we do?


"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

VBobier's picture

Why should I waste My time on 111th Congress garbage? This bill was made in March of 2010, before the November 2010 mid term election.

The current session of Congress is the 112th Congress

Duration: January 3, 2011 – January 3, 2013

The post on Reddit is old and expired, It's alarmist paranoid tripe meant to make one hate government, sounds familiar really, almost Republican in fact.

Ignore It folks, this bill has been dead for over a Year.

Also I did a Google Search of just the name looking for a Current version of this old bill, I did add the word House to the search, I still found nothing New at all. And at the end of a session a bill dies unless voted on and passed, If a bill dies It would have to wait to be reintroduced in the next session which We're in and I didn't see anything of the sort, so It's a dead bill, so far I think It will stay dead too.

S. 3081 [111th]: Enemy Belligerent Interrogation, Detention, and ...
www.govtrack.us › Congress › Legislation
Mar 4, 2010 – 111th Congress: 2009-2010. A bill to provide for the interrogation and detention of enemy ... certain limitations on the prosecution of such belligerents for such acts, and for other purposes. ... House Vote[H.R. 4892], (did not occur)

Milquetoast's picture

looks like Geronimo is correct and VBobier is wrong.

copy/paste:

The worldwide indefinite detention without charge or trial provision is in S. 1867, the National Defense Authorization Act bill, which will be on the Senate floor on Monday. The bill was drafted in secret by Sens. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.) and passed in a closed-door committee meeting, without even a single hearing.

apparently the bill is up for a vote monday

http://www.aclu.org/blog/national-security/se...


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Rich H's picture

.

VBobier's picture

S.1867 is a DOD Bill in 2011, the original bill is dead, Google It folks the ACLU website article is old data.

VBobier's picture

This isn't the same bill, This is a DOD appropriations bill, You know, the Military, Try and read It Here.

The one You continue to quote does not exist anymore. Check Yer facts.

11/15/2011--Introduced.
National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 - Authorizes appropriations for the Department of Defense (DOD) for FY2012. Authorizes appropriations to DOD for: (1) procurement, including aircraft, missiles, weapons and tracked combat vehicles, ammunition, shipbuilding and conversion, and other procurement; (2) research, development, test, and evaluation; (3) operation and maintenance; (4) active and reserve military personnel; (5) Working Capital Funds; (6) the National Defense Sealift Fund; (7) the Defense Health Program; (8) chemical agents and munitions destruction; (9) drug interdiction and counter-drug activities; (10) the Defense Inspector General; (11) the Armed Forces Retirement Home; (12) overseas contingency operations; (13) the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) Security Investment Program; (14) Guard and reserve forces facilities; (15) base closure and realignment activities; and (16) the Defense Nuclear Facilities Safety Board. Sets forth provisions or requirements concerning: (1) military personnel policy, including education and training, military justice, and sexual assault prevention and response; (2) military pay and allowances; (3) military health care; (4) acquisition policy and management, including major defense acquisition programs; (5) DOD organization and management, including space, intelligence, and cybersecurity matters; (6) financial matters, including counter-drug activities and detainee matters; (7) civilian personnel matters; (8) matters relating to foreign nations, including assistance and training; (9) cooperative threat reduction; and (10) matters relating to military construction and military family housing. Revises and adds new offenses under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) relating to rape, sexual assault, and other sexual misconduct. Provides procedures for the judicial review of decisions concerning the correction of military personnel records. Consolidates and revises DOD travel and transportation authorities. Establishes: (1) the Joint Urgent Operational Needs Fund, and (2) the Global Security Contingency Fund. Requires a DOD plan to acquire capabilities to detect previously unknown cyber attacks. Military Construction Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2012 - Authorizes appropriations for FY2012 for military construction for the Armed Forces and defense agencies. Authorizes appropriations to the Department of Energy (DOE) for DOE national security programs. Authorizes the obligation and expenditure of amounts specified in funding tables for a DOD project, program, or activity authorized under this Act.

Milquetoast's picture

the bill you cited earlier...(the one that died)

pieces of it have been re-introduced into s-1687!!!!

(the provision still lives)

It got a new address is all...


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

VBobier's picture

I see No such provision... In what I quoted, It's an appropriations bill, as in Money, pay for troops, sailors, planes, ships, etc. that's what an appropriations bill is all about.

Milquetoast's picture

...you most certainly did not quote the upcoming legislation entirely...so here it is!

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S....

Obama said he will veto it! (good for him)


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Milquetoast's picture

...the fuckin' thing is huge!!!


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

VBobier's picture
Yes

So far I looked for the word enemy and I only found It mentioned once Here. As to belligerents, I didn't find that word even once, and this is the bill with amendments and yes there are a lot of them.

11/17/2011:
S.AMDT.1093 Amendment SA 1093 proposed by Senator Inhofe. (consideration: CR S7689-7691; text: CR S7691)
To require the detention at United States Naval Station, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, of high-value enemy combatants who will be detained long-term.

It's only about the existing prison on the island of Cuba, Not the worldwide indefinite detention without charge or trial provision of US Citizens like the 2010 bill mentioned, nothing to get scared of.

Milquetoast's picture

audit-prosecute-incarcerate

Geronimo.'s picture

Sounds like more investigative journalism is needed. Who coordinated the attacks on protestors and the communications between the 18 mayors or whatever it was that took place? Why are all our supposed leaders in Congress and in the White House so silent while our brothers and sisters are getting beat down and sprayed like animals.


"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." ~ Eleanor Roosevelt

kaylaspop's picture

when I first heard MM state this as fact on "Countdown" & stated this to my spouse, who agreed that there were no real facts presented (WMD anyone). Michael & Naomi seem to be following Ms. Hamsher down the rabbit hole. I truly believe Mr. Obama is actually on our side.


It's not all or nothing.

Milquetoast's picture

he wouldn't have bailed out the banks.
or voted for the patriot act
or voted for FISA legislation
or kept guantanamo open
or (onandonandonandon)


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

insipid's picture

Actually Bush Bailed out the banks, the patriot act was 4 years before Barack became a Senator, and Barack did sign an order closing Guantanamo Bay his first day in office but the Senate in a 96 to 4 vote refused to fund it.

. . . but he can't manage a trial?


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Milquetoast's picture

...Chimpys TARP bailout with no oversite.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c112:1:...

Obama voted to re-authorise the patriot act (multiple times)

http://www.rollcall.com/news/house_clears_pat...

Obama didn't follow up on Guantanamo and should have written an executive order to close it.


audit-prosecute-incarcerate

insipid's picture

Well, Obama did add oversight when he came into office, it's one of the reasons tarp was paid back so quickly.

You're just wrong when you say Obama did not follow up on closing Guantanamo:

http://www.smh.com.au/world/obama-stymied-in-...

http://jurist.org/paperchase/2011/01/hrw-urge...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/guantanam...

The anger directed at Obama is misplaced. It should be directed at the Senate. But that doesn't fit in with the Obama has BETRAYED US! meme.

EnoughIsEnough's picture

It appears that many people just don't know how our government works. Maybe it's because Bush said he was the "decider". People have forgotten that Congress writes the laws. Or else they are just holding President Obama to a different standard. I saw a piece where several OWS said they didn't vote in 2010 and some said they had never voted. How are you going to make changes if you don't vote? Are they planning on overthrowing the government?


Getting old is not for sissies - Bette Davis

. . . unless you choose Coke or Pepsi!


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Ape-Man's picture

Barack did sign an order closing Guantanamo Bay his first day in office but the Senate in a 96 to 4 vote refused to fund it

Exactly - but you'd be surprised how many people don't know this.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

Margaret's picture

Is 100% right but it's really irrelevant in the overarching theme. Here we have at best silence from the White House and at worst collusion with the police. Either way, it's not Mr. "walking shoes" that we were led to believe we were voting for but just another Mr. 1%, in business for himself and his peers. Apart from a couple of feeble attempts to co-opt #OWS for his own political gain, Obama has very conveniently been outside the country during the most egregious abuses. Just another betrayal of stated Democratic principles. No more votes for Vichycrats.


Barack Obama: Change we can only imagine

karoli's picture

The core assertion in her piece is that all of the so-called evidence leads to only one conclusion: that the President and Congress are colluding with local governments to wage civil war on the citizens of this country.

That is not irrelevant. It's insulting, untrue, unfounded and baseless. But it isn't irrelevant.

fiver's picture

Hmmm?


Corruption favors the wealthy.

insipid's picture

Rush Limbaugh regularly accuses Obama of deliberately wanting to sabotage the economy, wanting to do "reparations" etc. etc. He doesn't deny that either.

But to be fair, i did see someone calling you an idiot on another thread. You never denied it and i just assumed it was true. My bad.

fiver's picture

. . . the White House issued a very carefully worded non-denial. Congratulations on your reference to basic argumentation, but that doesn't fit here.

Silence, or a similar non-denial, in circumstances under which a person would normally speak up is not only evidence, it's a specific exception to the hearsay rule.

See the Notes to Federal Rules of Evidence 801(2)(b).

Under established principles an admission may be made by adopting or acquiescing in the statement of another. While knowledge of contents would ordinarily be essential, this is not inevitably so: "X is a reliable person and knows what he is talking about." See McCormick § 246, p. 527, n. 15. Adoption or acquiescence may be manifested in any appropriate manner. When silence is relied upon, the theory is that the person would, under the circumstances, protest the statement made in his presence, if untrue. The decision in each case calls for an evaluation in terms of probable human behavior.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

BillCole's picture

If you were interested in knowing about denials of Ellis' original piece that sparked all of this, you would have seen the on-the-record direct denial by DHS reported 11/17 by Salon and the anonymously-sourced mostly-denials he reported the next day. Think for a second what that says about his reporting.

What is largely missing in all of this is a recognition that it came out of the content-farm side of the Examiner, which is part of a larger strategic project by Phillip Anschutz that includes the Weekly Standard and local Examiner newspapers in various cities to put together a far-right neo-con/Dominionist press operation with a broad national base. The field laborers in the content farm such as Ellis may or may not be conscious team players for the right-wing noise machine, but they certainly provide it cover. This sort of story that fuels squabbling and name-calling and alienation between should-be allies is exactly what one should expect from a man who bought up Hearst's trademark and used it as part of a long-term campaign to dismantle and discredit liberal democracy and much if the rest of the Enlightenment's legacy. Stories from the Examiner ought to be considered as suspiciously as stories from WND.

fiver's picture

Funny how you didn't quote that "denial."

“Any decisions on how to handle specifics situations are dealt with by local authorities in that location,” Chandler said.

He's doing exactly the same thing Carney did. He's denying final decision making in the White House and carefully avoiding issues like: logistical support, federal surveillance, provision of the weapons used on protesters or recommendations on what type of excuses to use.

Strange how they're tracing exactly the same phrasing when all it would take is: "No. We've had nothing to do with this."


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Ape-Man's picture

Those other issues are not important to the point Karoli is making, that claims are made about a war, without the evidence. Anyone can do that.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

fiver's picture

Yup. Anybody can do that.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Ape-Man's picture

I don't hear Obama denying a lot of stuff. For example he doesn't deny he is beating his wife.


"Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob"
-= Franklin Delano Roosevelt =-

fiver's picture

And instead of denying involvement, they denied decision making thus leaving the door open for advice and assistance.


Corruption favors the wealthy.

Edwin's picture

It's insulting, untrue, unfounded and baseless.

and yet to be proven ...(give it some time)


"If the US government enforced its banking laws like it did its park regulations, we wouldn't be
in this damn park in the first place." OCCUPY.!!