The Chris Matthews Show: On Health Care Reform, Won't Someone Think About Us Rich People???
By Nicole Belle Sunday Jul 19, 2009 12:00pm
Clearly, the Beltway Bubble operates much like the looking glass does in Lewis Carroll's works: it inverts logic, turns issues inside out and makes the most trivial loom large and ignores the elephant in the room.
The moneyed, privileged bobbleheads are a perfect example of the "MFFY" generation of which Nonny spoke, because for them, it's all about the taxes. Notice how they talk about it as if it's across the board, rather than those making over $250,000 a year (approximately 2% of the population)
BROOKS: You know, they made some progress on the Hill, they got a House bill out, they got a Senate bill moving forward. They’re scaring the dickens out of the moderates in their own party, let alone the Republicans. They’re scaring the dickens out of them because the House bill calls for raising the top tax rate to 52 or in some cities, 57%. That’s higher than in France, Spain, Italy…
No, David, YOU'RE scaring the dickens out of these politicians. With your handy-dandy Luntz talking points, you have pounded into the heads of these craven politicians that they MUST fear the tax increase, that their entire career depends on it.
Never mind that the tax increase is for only the top 2% of Americans.
Never mind that 76% of Americans want to see some sort of nationalized health care in place.
Never mind that even your precious group of top 2% earners are ALREADY paying for the under- and uninsured now with increased insurances and medical costs.
Let me clue you in, Brooks, Parker, Page, O'Donnell and Matthews: HAVING YOU PAY A LITTLE HIGHER IN TAXES IS SWEET JUSTICE FOR ALL THE MISINFORMATION YOU'VE USED TO FRAME THIS DEBATE SINCE 1983. It's not about you guys. It's about the vast majority of Americans who are barely getting by and are one even minor catastrophe away from ruin. It's about acknowledging that health care is a right--not a privilege for the moneyed class. It's about acknowledging that this is what AMERICANS--not you bobble-headed bubble boobs--want.
And here's a kick in the pants for you, Brooks: What does it say about all the weakening of the Obama's health care plan and the public option by those frightened politicos if other countries like France and Spain can offer a fully socialized (*gasp*) and robust single payer program to their citizens for less taxes than are currently being proposed here?
If you were truly interested in being fiscally responsible and lowering taxes, then you would champion single payer, you blind ideologue.
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I wonder how much that $58 million those three Insurance CEOs got would help the under-insured and uninsured in America?
It wouldn't contribute a great deal to improving health, under the present circumstances.
Except in a wholly non-profit, preferrably universal health-care system, where it wouldn't be an issue.
There is no way to charge those folks the price of their privilege. And nobody gets into that position without having foresaken their humanity, probably several times over...The only thing one can do is to profoundly wish that they die alone, slowly, in excruciating pain.
that uses a "so-called" Canadian to bash Canadian universal health care. As a Canadian, I can tell you that this ad is pure 100% BUNK.
If the Canadian government took away universal health care in Canada, there would be riots in the streets.
The father of universal health care, Tommy Douglas, is considered one of the greatest Canadians in the history of Canada.
Period.
firstly god bless tommy douglas!! he was a great man!!i just had the feeling that ad rick scott ran with that lady from canada was fruadulent.it wouldn,t be the first time rick scott was involved in fraud.canada is a great and beautiful country. are americans welcome to emigrate to canada?i have heard canada is a great country to live in.
Thank you Nicole, I was afraid that I was the only one that heard what Brooks said. Wow these people are real doozies.
I have, is essentially, IF the economy finally starts turning around, all this belt tightening that Obama and other politicians have been spouting Joe Taxpayer should be doing right now, will turn into massive tax increases for Joe Taxpayer. That's how the game always works. Then the same idiotic politicians that brought you the debt, will bring you the tax increases, and yes, just as with the debt it will be all your own fault. Not theirs. Oh no, never is. And if you think the rich are going to pay increased taxes to the point of their fair share? Point where that has ever happened in the last 30 or more years. Rich people don't pay their share, they provide the jobs, is always the motto of politicians.
Case in point, the Cigna CEO that Bill Moyers pointed out (see my post above). It's hard economic times so he cut 1,100 jobs - but the company reported $208 million in revenues and he took home $11.4 million personally.
Keep creating those jobs corporate America!
and both sides of the political spectrum, both liberal and conservative, continue to bail out corporations, banks and industries while telling the poor sap that got laid off to "pull up his bootstraps and make some tough choices" to survive. It's all your fault you see. My company is the same way. When times were good, we just weren't working hard enough, or there would be more profit! More more more! Times get tough, and it's our fault, because well, we just aren't cheap enough. We make too much money.
The top 1% include many more Wall Street financiers than CEOs. The 25 highest-paid hedge-fund managers are earning more than the CEOs of the largest 500 companies combined. Several of these fund managers are taking home more than a billion dollars a year. And guess what? Democratic party campaigns get twice as much in contributions from hedge-fund types as do Republicans!
Government is not For Sale. Government has been sold. The foxes are running the henhouse.
To gain perspective on how the top 1% has faired compared to the rest of us between the 2001 and 2008 take a look at the figures compiled by Jim Hightower. (scroll down to middle of page for actual figures)
http://www.hightowerlowdown.org/node/1603
is a great writer! Adds just enough humour to the absurd to stop you from throwing up.
Another roundtable of rich white people discussing what's best for us peons.
F*ck that!
on how much their taxes went DOWN in the past eight years? In the past 30?
Or are tax cuts for rich people just the natural order of things?
Why am I even asking?
income went into offshore accounts that never got taxed?
i have no sympathy for the rich.
they constantly demonstrate their
disdain for those who do not have
wealth or position. as far as they
are concerned, if you did not come
into the world with a silver spoon
in your mouth, than you can just eat
your meals with a stick or your
hands by an open fire.
the rich can all STFU and ESAD.
?
Forgive me for being dense but I don't know what "MFFY" stands for.
.
Got it. Seems appropriate.
It's "Me First, F8@k You"
Don't forget that 2% pays for 90% of "our" politicians' reelection campaigns.
Mitch McConnell on MtP was spitting out five-week old Rightwing talking points like a machine-gun this morning.
But even better, at one point, he compared "Public financing of healthcare" to "Ford having to compete with government financing of GM cars" (supposedly, Ford Financing says it is being undercut by government loans for GM cars.)
That analogy is just too stupid in more ways than I can recite here.
And then lastly, McConnell quotes "a friend in Florida who just lost a friend in Canada" who "died because the Canadian system said he was too old for a life-saving procedure."
How many things can we find wrong with that comment? ("Friend of a friend told me"; We're not doing the Canadian system; if THAT'S the worst story you can come up with, you're out-of-touch to the extreme.)
It took him that long to learn them, I expect.
It's hard to study when you hang around in dark, public mens' rooms...
Too bad that Canadian wasn't in the US health care system.
Assuming he had insurance, he would have lost it as soon as he got sick or lost his job due to illness. And if by some miracle he didn't lose his job and didn't get his policy revoked for being sick, a preexisting condition, a previously undiscovered application error or just plain obstructive greed, and assuming he was able to get appropriate care "in network", and that the insurance company actually paid more than some small fraction of the costs, he would have been much, much better off here.
dupl. post
This from people who always claim they pay the most taxes because income taxes are all they ever cite, until now.
I know my measly paycheck goes down 50% automatically if you add withholdong, state, local, sales, gasoline, and all the fees we pay, but these never bothered the nabobs before.
God forbid these people have to buy $100 dress shirts instead of $150 dress shirts.
$150 for a shirt? You mock them!
http://www.mademan.com/wallstreetfighter/2008...
$540 sneakers.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/29/mich...
What they always leave out is once you make $106,800 you are no longer taxed Social Security on your wages. Chances are most if not all people here make less than that. 100% of our wages are taxed on Social Security. Someone making $250,000 less than half their wages are taxed on Social Security. Someone making a million, only 11%. Hell, if your one of those CEO's from a failing bank or insurance company 1% of your wages are taxed on Social Security. For them, the more you make the less they take. If we want to save Social Security, tax everyone on all their wages.
in perpetuity if the SS tax limit were totally eliminated, as it should be. And if investment income were also subject to SS tax, you could make Medicare sound for a century.
Exactly right woody. I'm tired of the crocodile tears from the rich. God forbid they have have to go with the 600 series BMW instead of the 700 series. I'm debating if I should repair my 2001 Ford Ranger or by a used 2007.
There's are two reasons it's call "trickle down":
a) it doesn't pour down
b) it's really trickle up
In most states unemployment taxes are limited to a threshold also. It all evens out.
if you collect unemployment, you have to pay income tax on it.
I paid a tax so that I might eventually collect the insurance. Now I am receiving the payments on the insurance, they tax it, too. I doubt I see $20k/annum, altogether...
Why tax income once when you can tax it twice. It's just like buying used cars or an existing home. Every time it's sold it's taxed.
PBS's NOW did a great piece on this last year:
http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/415/
What's truly amazing is how so many people are so uninformed they actually vote against their own best interests. The interview a few people who vote against a bill that would lower their taxes because they believed the opposite. It's a great look into the manipulation of the uniformed for the profit of the rich.
They considered increasing the sales tax in PA a percent to lower property taxes. That was until they allowed casinos in PA. But once again bringing in legalized gambling hurts the middle to lower class because of the addiction factor. You walk into any casino in PA and you can tell who the people are. At the risk of sounding rude it's because of the dress. More people go to the casino hoping to hit it rich to cure their ills.
You know, the bloggers at C&L and the commentators have pretty much mapped out what's behind the MSM phenomena, but i think the reason we have such blatent and harmful pitching from the MSM now is also a result of the over inflated MSM that has resulted from the tragic events of the Bush presidency - we've had a world on edge since the Bush-Cheney cluster f@#k and they want to know what's going on.
So now the MSM has to keep the Bush-Cheney cluster f@#k going and going, or else they are going to deflate like a party doll, back to where they belong - in the news business.
Let's also not forget that the MSM did not keep us informed as they expanded but rather they contributed generously to the dis-information by speculating rather than investigating.
So the MSM failed us, and now they are an over inflated propaganda machine, desperately searching for the level of content that a catastrophy can bring them, but not finding it so they bring out the republicanzi geeks for everyone to look at and go "ooh yuk!" "boo hiss". the result is a miss-informed message.
or not.
**SCUM = SoCalledUnbiasedMedia
is that they are employees in corporations the main business of which is not anything even remotely related to the functions of the Press as they were imagined when the PRess was accorded the protection of the Constitution.
The corpoRats killed off the Press when they bought it out, lock, stock, and barrel, in the '80s and '90s. the corporats closed bureaus, fired staff, elimiinated any semblance of any remaining firewall bertween the ad department and the city room; they dropped bureaus; they reduced the size of papers, both in physical dimensions and in the size of the news hole relative to ads. They were transformed by their new owners from the beacons of the peoples' interest into fucking suburban shoppers, with movie schedules, horoscopes, and celebrity gossip. People could get all that on-line, or off tv, and NOT have the distraction of having to actually READ anything.
That's what's happened to "the Press."
I keep thinking there may be business opportunities for real newspapers at this point. They might have to be mostly Internet newspapers but what's the difference? The important factor is that there have to be real newspapers again - like the "daily Planet". you know, with reporters and journalists.
I used to get angry. Now, I find it funny. And the desperation is becoming apparent.
kill another celebrity. BTW, check this out: Teva Pharmaceuticals USA is initiating a voluntary recall of Propofol Injectable Emulsion 10 mg/mL 100 mL vials, lot numbers 31305429B and 31305430B. The product lots identified are being recalled due to the presence of elevated endotoxin levels in some vials within these lot numbers.
Adverse health effects, such as fever, chills, or rigors, are possible with exposure to product with elevated levels of endotoxins. Serious adverse effects, such as disseminated intravascular coagulopathy, acute respiratory distress syndrome, shock, and death, are possible with exposure to product with high endotoxin levels.
For use as an anesthetic agent, propofol should be used only by professionals trained in the administration of general anesthesia. For sedation of intubated, mechanically ventilated patients in the Intensive Care Unit, propofol should be administered only by persons skilled in the management of critically ill patients. This is from the FDA.
The gloved one was taking and it is truly staggering.
What a story this will be, if and when the truth finally comes out.
He was even being prescribed dexadrine!!
I would NOT want to be any of the physicians who was caring for him, and most certainly not any of the licensed nurses who may have been administering any of these medications.
I have a feeling there's going to be a VERY ugly lawsuit coming down the pike on this one.
we're going to make you rich people pay for our health care! We payed for your yachts, your vacation villas in france, your golf clubs, your kids teeth and education, your wife's boob job, your Hummer, your country club membership, your McMansion, your mistress' apartment, your house in the Hamptons, your 401k, and your retirement package, not to mention your fucking golden parachute, and don't forget your war which,incidentally, none of your family participated in, we did this by working in your sweatshops, your non-union businesses, your mines your MallWarts, we cooked your food in your fancy restaurants, often working sick, we valet parked your car, shined your shoes, caddied for you, nannied your brats, taught your kid to play musical instruments, coached his little league team while you were too busy working on that report, waited on your demanding wife in countless retail outlets for $8 an hour. cleaned your teeth, mowed your lawn, planted your flower beds, cleaned your swimming pools, beginning to get the picture, Asshole?
awesome post!!!just great!!
Maybe I'm missing something, but according to what Ed Schulz said on his show Friday, the top rate would go from 36 to 39% on those making over $250,000 annually in order to pay for the public option.
Did I misunderstand?
Brooks is adding in state taxes too.
600 billion...
The banks got it..
Why not healthcare??
So, the US spends about 15% of GDP on health care and most industrialized spend less than 10% of GDP. We spend double per capita compared to other industrialized nations and we don't cover everyone. The public option is going to cost billions more from our gov't and it won't cover everyone. So, in order to fix an incredibly inefficient "health care system" the Obama answer is to spend more money? It is not the amount of money we spend on health care; it is the way it is spent. THE SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM IS TO CUT OUT THE INEFFICIENT INSURANCE COMPANIES. The single payer will do that.
The public option will end up costing more than they expect. This stepping stone approach will fail and how many more years must we wait? How many more people must die and go bankrupt because Obama doesn't want to push too hard?
God, I hate rich people! But we need their money for taxes, so it's so darn frustrating!
No. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people making money as long as the money they make is legitimate and fair. One should note that most working people pay taxes on most of their income while the very rich whose monies are tied to stocks and investments will generally pay a maximum indexed tax to 28%. One should also note that most working people pay social security taxes on all their income while the more well off stop paying social security taxes on income over $106,000.
is becoming irrelevant. Another argument for throwing the TV in the trash and never looking back.
There is no particular reason to post this HERE, as it is somewhat off-topic, but some of the discussion made my blood boil and I decided to get it out. Therapy, perhaps,
The gist is this: If I were to start making stereotypical comments about those who are poor, living hand-to-mouth, struggling, etc, by saying things like: "they deserve what they get or don't get", "lazy, unmotivated", "dense, dull, lacking common sense" --- you would rightly jump down my throat, big time. Labeling, accusing, and overgeneralizing is ALWAYS wrong and hurtful. I despise it, and it makes me just as disappointed when I see the tactic applied to those who are well-off as when I see it applied to those who are unfortunate for whatever reason.
That's my message. Some of the commenters here really did cross over that line in my mind, and so I am calling that out. If you are interested in the background, it follows. If not, you won't hurt my feelings one bit by just ignoring it. In writing this, I finally did what it seemed I should --- which is "get it out." There are probably lots of others in my circumstances who won't do so. They'll just ignore the stereotyping, dismiss the put-down, and go about their business. Which is what I will do, too, now that I've unloaded.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
At age 68, an retired urban guy who mingles a lot, I know (very well) people from one end of the spectrum to the other, from mobile home dwellers and subsidized housing folks, to penthouse guys. I have a great grandchild now, and his Dad is Hispanic, so I now have some connections into that culture as well. I'm as middle class as it gets in terms of upbringing. And my life has been about "working my ass off". It paid off, eventually. I bought into a business as a co-owner, risked all, and it paid off through hard work and putting other priorities down on the list, right or wrong.
There seem to be some experts here re: tax avoidance for those with "wealth". As if, they all have their way to skirt the system, to get a "pass". I don't know any of those people, although there probably are some here and there who are willing to deceive and misrepresent; most of those I know live in fear of the IRS and are painstaking about paying. I do have some wealth, at least if you stretch the definition to mean "enough to live comfortably on in retirement". I sure could use some advice about the tax part from anyone willing to offer, because the checks I write to the IRS and state are HUMONGOUS. When I learned recently that the upper (small) percent of income earners pay virtually ALL of the federal income taxes it came as NO surprise to me. Some friends who are further left than I think those stats are bogus -- I know better based on my own experience.
Then again, maybe I'm not wealthy, because I score very poorly on scale attached to this checklist offered above by a troubled person -- 7/19 @ 14:25: yacht, villas, golf, wife's boob job, Hummer (or any luxury car), club membership, McMansion, mistress' apartment, war avoider, sweatshop operator, valet parking, fine dining. Huh? None of the above. "My war" was VietNam, though not in combat. My non-union so-called "sweatshop" was routinely designated a "best employer", and the union-organized companies I worked for early in life have closed. Use little valet parking (at the hospitals, which is where I see it offered) due to the mess in my car, and the restaurants we frequent have counters or bars and burgers mostly. "Nice" restaurants-- four times a year on special occasions. Shine my own shoes, do my own lawn and garden, have never had a pool or a caddy. Never had TIME for golf since age 35 (nor eventually for fitness), because running a business is about a 70 hour week and having family is another priority. Became overweight and burned out, nearly ruined my marriage --- but I know that's not unusual for people who take on too much responsibility and stress.
I give very little to "formal" charity. Instead, I quasi-adopt a person(s) that I know who needs help through a troubled time or ill health, or because of the IRS, foreclosure, etc... and I help them financially. If they ever care to pay anything back, that's cool, but usually they are not in a position to do so. Gave four cars to folks (two were relatives, two friends) I knew who were in distress and lost their wheels. Paid off some bills for them. That means of course tax deductible, although I KNOW it does more good than giving to many "causes" that would allow me to deduct. That's my way to make up for what I think is a lot of waste in social programs run by "agencies".
From the checklist above for the wealthy class: I can identify with dental expenses (out the wazoo), teeth cleaning, education (college for 3 kids and 3 grandchildren, my own grad school and wife's PhD; all paid for), and the "villa" is in Georgia where half of it is a vacation rental --- which pays for the taxes, insurance, utilities, and upkeep -- but not the mortgage. That's about it, except for ridiculous vet bills due to surgeries on the little canine buggers.
I go into this simply to show that putting me in the "rich" box with all the alleged trappings of wealth is far off the mark. I've never really even hung out with the kinds of stereotypical rich that are described, nor wanted to (if they even DO exist) so to be "lumped in" with them in some kind of class-bashing is pretty outrageous. We know quite a few others who are in a generally similar financial situation as we, and except for them playing some golf, and a couple who "do vacations" (expensive tours) now and then, I don't recognize them as being so much different than I.
My retirement savings are my OWN invested money, except for a sliver from a 401k in the early days. It's about half of what it was a couple of years ago due to taxes, family emergencies, and of course the decline of financial markets. But somehow, I'm sure the IRS will still get a lot of it. I'm about to start nosing around for a part-time job, simply because I now miss working and also I HATE the feeling of seeing what I have eroding so steadily with nothing coming in. The health insurance I've had for the past 23 years has been paid by me, no one else. I'm grateful for Medicare now, but I can see as a user that it's an "odd" program in terms of how much it pays --- like for the neurosurgeon who pretty much saved my wife's life last year. What it didn't pay him for the two spinal surgeries, because of legislated (I guess?) rates, got shifted over to someone else, which is bizarre and why my private plan (a supplement) costs me $7,000 a year. Yes, the thing is broken. Yet, I have friends without a pot to pee in who got great care when they needed it for emergencies and serious conditions. We have to fix the health care dilemma. It is not an easy fix. If people like me end up paying the lion's share, ok, we will figure out how to shoulder the extra burden I suppose. Going back to work if we need to to pay the extra taxes. But it doesn't help to label us all "assholes" as one of you did up thread. That's not called for.
Look, whatever label you care to apply to me, I want this country to have the best of everything for everyone, like most of us do. I may be pollyanna, but I don't believe it's about class warfare except for some minority of people who have some gnawing angst and bitterness --- less than 20% of us, I'd say. I've done well, sure, but I made the most of my opportunity and talent and invested everything I had when I really couldn't afford to. Took pay cuts to get where I wanted to go, betting on the come. It worked out. To the best of my knowledge, people in my life at all socio-economic levels don't resent me for that.
Whatever taxes are put on my gains, I'll pay as a citizen of a terrific country. I fully accept the concept of progressive taxation. Doesn't mean I won't bitch about it; doesn't mean I won't call out things I think are wasteful, or unaffordable, or too "politically" driven. How much is "too much" when it comes to taxation? I don't know; I avoid even doing the exercise of adding up it all up because frankly it IS a bit depressing. I guess we may find out what is "too much", if it drives people to stop striving as I once did or if it means people who are otherwise straight shooters start to obsess over ways to beat the system, or if people pull back from the socially-oriented contributions they make outside the tax system. I hope we don't get to that point. I sincerely believe that whatever we DO pay in taxes has a very indirect impact on Joe Sixpack's well-being, passing as it does through the public sector and going to all kinds of strange things.
I will shut up now and walk my dogs. That's my other therapy.
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