Countdown: The Dangers of McCain's Free Market Healthcare Plan
By Nicole Belle Thursday Oct 09, 2008 1:10pm
NY Times columnist Bob Herbert appeared on Countdown to put some perspective on McCain's rose-colored promises of a $5,000 per family tax break somehow being an adequate plan to insure more Americans.
OLBERMANN: The infamous article—the “contigencies” article—that John McCain wrote when he wrote an article for the actuarial magazine reader: “We need to do for health insurance what we’ve done for the banking industry.” We’ll just for a moment throw out the economic collapse that resulted from doing that, even taking him at his word that he only meant the interstate commerce part, of letting you shop for a better healthcare plan in Arizona if you live in Michigan, is there any way that won’t end in disaster?
HERBERT: No. That will be guaranteed to end in disaster because what he wants to do is essentially deregulate the healthcare insurance industry. So what happens is a health insurance company sets up in a state that has the least regulations, so what happens now is if you purchase private healthcare, you may have a plan that says you get breast examinations that are covered or covered if you have a pre-existing condition or you’re covered for an ordinary annual checkup. Well if the company is set up in a state that says you don’t have to provide that coverage, well, guess what? Do we think that they’re going to provide it? No, they’re not going to provide it. So you’re going to get healthcare that is of a much lesser value.
This is exactly what they want to do, though. I mean, this is an ideological thing. They want healthcare to go into the marketplace. They don’t want healthcare provided on the job and they don’t want government sponsored healthcare. They want everybody out there in the marketplace.
We need only look at the financial market now to see how dangerous this is. As Herbert wrote in the NY Times:
In a refrain we’ve heard many times in recent years, Mr. McCain said he is committed to ridding the market of these “needless and costly” insurance regulations.
This entire McCain health insurance transformation is right out of the right-wing Republicans’ ideological playbook: fewer regulations; let the market decide; and send unsophisticated consumers into the crucible alone.
You would think that with some of the most venerable houses on Wall Street crumbling like sand castles right before our eyes, we’d be a little wary about spreading this toxic formula even further into the health care system.
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Period!
The Dangers of McCain's ________
You could put the name of anything he proposes in there. His tax plan, his plan for the war, etc. Seems whatever he plans is not good for Americans.
If the government gives everyone $5000 a year for health care...
Within 18 months--- everyone's healthcare premiums will go up $5000 over what they pay now.
( If you pay $2.5k now IT WILL BE $7.5k in less then two years. )
It is just more money shifting from the pockets of people struggling in the middle and more tax revenues, which we also pay for, to the large corporations.
Trillions of dollars are shifting to the 'already' rich that own the oil companies, insurance companies, etc.
We're screwed folks. And, it is not only the Repugs that are owned (through the lobbyists) by the large INC's.
He wants to have some of the benefits you receive right now to be taxable as income. Which in some cases may mean that the $5000 cash back may not offset the increase in taxes, so you are actually paying more.
It is brilliant in the sense that Insurance companies get extra revenue in the form of those $5K that most people will pay on top of their benefit packages.
The genius of the GOP is that they are able to convince the majority of their electorate to fight with their lives for the right of getting screwed. And in some sense, I find that purely brilliant... fucked up and evil... but brilliant none the less. I can picture some of these guys convincing a prostitute to have her actually pay for the screw. They are *that* good...
Don't get sick!
If you do...it's your own fault and you get NOTHING.
And...
If you don't vote for Obama, it's your own fault and get NOTHING!!
Ignoring for a minute that McCAIN, has in his last name a reference to Cain, you know as in the evil brother in the old testament, the one that murders his very own brother. And sure he is insane, a complete idiot, and will surely fuck this up all the way to Katmandu...
But at least his name is John... And that seems to be enough for a big chunk of this country.
"Hey remember that time when" Try reading that one for - shock! - a rational and contrary opinion.
Keep close to your comrades, Junior. We'll all be waiting for you socialist creeps to come and kill our dogs and feed us poison milk when Obama-san wins. Are you what? Twenty? You have all the answers? Congrats.
Too bad so many Obama-fans cannot recall what a real enemy is, they think terrorists are misunderstood simpletons or something, I guess. Cannot really define a real leader, either - one willing to do, not only say. How many times can it be said: UNPROVEN.
Here's a hint for a leader: he is not loaded with noncommittal rhetoric. He doesn't wait till last to react in a crisis, only to gloat of how bad his opposition's ideas are. So what the hell is Obama going to do when there is no other guy/girl to contrast? Will he take the Barney Frank approach - oh, I wasn't in charge the whole time! It's not my fault! Bought and sold, you are.
mccain wants to deregulate the healthcare system. if this happens we will see more concern for shareholders than patients. when you have a medicine for profit model you don't encourage healthcare. insurance companies love members that pay their premium but never show up for any care.
When loads of people stop making payments next month.
I got MINE! But I'm a HERO and a POW...and a SENATOR!
You get nothing. The American people need to be free of government intervention!
Hey remember that time when Olberman had someone on his show who disagreed with him? Has that ever happened actually? His show is a 60 minute backslap and high five about how great they are.
His hypothesis is wildly flawed.
California doesn’t mandate colon-cancer screening, yet Kaiser Permanente of Northern California is a leader in such research and boasts the most aggressive screening program in the country.
Michigan doesn’t mandate prostate or cervical cancer screening, yet six of the University of Michigan’s seven insurance offerings cover both.
AHHHH FACTS FACTS FACTS.
For the record, I'm voting for Obama. I'm a libertarian. Obama is actually more fiscally conservative than McCain. McCain truly is Bush v2. Can't imagine why anyone would vote for him. But I absolutely despise Olbermann. He's absolutely worse than O'Reilly because he's too much of a pussy to ever have anyone on his show that would drown him in facts.
Nice attempt to do a bit of concern trolling. Your caveat at the bottom tells it all. Who are you trying to convince? Yourself or us?
As for Olberman, the invitation is always out for someone of the reichwing mentality to appear on the show, as it is with Maddow's show - the fact is they are all spineless, gutless, sycophantic morons who know that they'll be skewered and served up on rice pilaf.
No need to show your credentials here, however. We can sniff out those concern trolls miles away but....thanks for playing.
Who is concern trolling? I'm saying that Olbermann is clueless. And if you think that Republicans are afraid of Olbermann you are high. People on the other side would always come on any show no matter how bad they are. The left still comes on Hannity or O'Reilly even though they know they will be irrationally shouted at and know that the audience is 100% right wing.
The content of the guy's show is stolen from the pages of Kos and DU. He has his interns surf for good lines and memes and vomits them back. If he actually had to debate anyone who disagreed with him, he'd crumble and cry. He's a puss.
But that's beyond the point here. His assumptions are wrong. Why should I be able to shop for auto insurance but not health insurance?
And PS. The only "deregulation" that caused the financial bomb (aside from Clinton's CRA expansion in '95 which really didn't have much impact) was the SEC loosening the net capital ratio in '04. It was more the "hyper-regulation" of the FED, idiocy of consumers continuing to buy things with debt, and systematic incompetence of banks not having a better handle on their exposure. Banks clearly share the brunt of the blame since it's their job to understand risk. But giving out loans to people who can't pay them back isn't "Greed" by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, it's pretty much the opposite of greed.
"But that's beyond the point here. His assumptions are wrong. Why should I be able to shop for auto insurance but not health insurance?"
Are you seriously comparing health insurance to auto insurance? Now that takes the cake. I've heard some analogies that stretch the truth or are pretty obfuscating, but that is a whopper.
Do you realize how much money would be SAVED if the nation was healthier? You do realize you pay for people with no insurance already, right?
The public health of the nation is vital to national security. It's people like you, the I have mine fuck everyone else types, that are truly unpatriotic.
beyond that my friend, if you are trying to argue a pro deregulated free market ideology, give it up. Do you not see what is going on around you?
Do you really not the the parallel between auto insurance and health insurance?
The government nor healthcare companies are going to make people healthier. People are unhealthy because they are fat, immobile, and make poor decisions (e.g. smoking). 50% of our nation's healthcare costs are due to smoking and excess weight-related maladies. That's personal choice and ignorance. Neither of which will universal care solve. Just like giving everyone free auto insurance isn't going to make them drive slower, sober, and use turn signals.
I don't "have mine", but I know that I shouldn't smoke and get fat because it will cause health problems, and I know that I shouldn't drown in debt just to get things I can't afford but "deserve" like a big house, two cars, and a giant big screen TV.
People are responsible for their own lives. The more we bail out people and banks for retarded decisions, the more they will do it. Moral Hazard 101.
People are not unhealthy because they're fat and immobile. Your stats are ridiculous, so I have a pretty good idea from whence they were pulled.
People are unhealthy because they don't have proper preventative care they can afford, so they can't go to the doctor immediately and treat the hangnail so it doesn't become gangrene. People are unhealthy because they're broke and healthful food is more expensive than cheap crap. People are unhealthy because their water supplies and food sources have been contaminated and screwed with to the point there's no nutrition in any of it.
I could go on, but I won't bother. You'd better pray you don't get cancer. How old are you, 17? I knew a kid who died at 14 of a brain tumor. He wasn't fat, either. Oh, but wait. You're morally superior so you'll never get sick.
Why should a person shop for healthcare insurance? What a stupid way of thinking about things. While your at it; why not shop for roads to drive down or air to breathe.
Why should a person shop for healthcare insurance? Ummm, to get a lower price. Just like how you shop for a house or a car or auto insurance.
And people do shop for roads. You can either take a toll road quickly or a free road the long way.
... on the average we spent 2 to 3 times as much per capita on health care in this country than every other industrialized country.
On the last survey, the American Healthcare systems did not even break in the top 20 in level of quality.
Funny how these die hard "free market" libertarians know very little about plain economic concepts such as "value proposition" and "return on investment." Heck most of them are die hard capitalists without a clue on how capital works.
That is why I used to attend libertarian meetups, a collection of people (living in some instances on borderline poverty) fighting tooth and nail for the right to be screwed. It was a fantastic study in stupidity.
At the end of the day, you feel that your right to be able to "chose a lower price" is important enough to tolerate over 40 million of your fellow citizens to live sans health insurance. Speaks volumes about the human quality of some people.
Thank you for coming. Say hello to Olbermann at the meetings. Keep close to your comrades, Nutters. They may eventually kill you for the gold in your teeth, but at least they'll do it in your sleep.
Olbermann would have to take too much Valium to carry on a real argument. Nobody would bother going on his show - he is more of a fruit cup in a suit than a conservative 12-year-old girl. You cannot seriously presume that he is more of an intellect than Bill O'Reilly? Hate to say it, hate O'Reilly as you do, I know, but Olbermann is a bad comedian by comparison. And LOTS of real liberals go on his show. Olbermann is a joke, that's why no one goes on his show, if they are EVER invited. Nice try - perhaps watch Lou Dobbs for some recovery time.
Like that big word, sycophantic, though. Good job. That is exactly what Olbermann uses with every guest on his show. Look it up before you use it next time. You sufficiently bored me, so that's that.
Boogedy! Boogedy!
You remind me of those reichwing locksteppers who profess to be independent minded but whose lace-top leather hi-tops just keep getting in the way. Fe-fi-fo-fum....nice try anyway. I believe you'll find that most lefties and indies are smarter than the average bear.
Many of us, sadly,do but now he's calling us all "prisoners" so I think his PTSD is showing.
if it were funny. Loser. Child. Shoe-sniffer.
You have come to Crooksandliars.com, not FREEREPUBLIC.com.
We actually believe in truth.
regardless of our political stripes, I think we can all agree that freerepublic.com is the worst site on the Internet.
"Ya know who voted to give handouts to underprivileged sick children..THAT ONE...ya know who voted against it...ME!"
duhhhhhh-mmmmm-ass.
PLEASE READ THE LATEST ISSUE OF CONSUMER REPORTS. THEY TAKE 5 HEALTH CARE SITUATIONS AND ANALYZE HOW THE TWO CANDIDATES PLANS WOULD AFFECT EACH SITUATION.
MY OPINION, AND CONSUMER REPORTS SUPPORTS A MEDICARE FOR ALL PLAN, IS THAT BOTH PLANS SUCK AND WE NEED RADICAL CHANGE. CR POINTS OUT BOTH PLANS ARE VAGUE IN AREAS AND BOTH PLANS DEPEND UPON OTHER FACTORS THAT ARE HARD TO PREDICT.
The button says "caps lock" on it. See it? Just above the one that says "shift". Yes, that's the one. Please press that button once and only once.
Thank you. Now return to reading Consumer Reports. It's a fine publication.
Duck and cover, folks because a McCain-Paliban Violence Training Rally may be coming to a town near you.
Be afraid. Be very afraid. With these two whackos inciting the whackos in the audience, no one knows what may erupt. It's anyone's guess these days.
I wouldn't vote for the McCain-Paliban ticket if they were the only two running.
Barack Hussein Obama!
aaaaaaugh! scary!
...and Mc Same has no plan to cure that either.
If I had seven homes, 13 cars and a net worth of hundreds of millions, I wouldn't give a shit either...
No, wait, yes I would!
Obama/Biden '08
Just like everything else this guy does, his health care plan is also a sham - a total sham.
For most of us it means being further screwed by Big Insurance just as we've been for the past 8 years; that is, if you can even find a policy to cover you.
Tell this fool to go back to the Senate! He's a total scam-bag.
their economy is fundamentally sound.
faster than the DOW
The big secret is that the economy is actually fundamentally sound. The stock market sucks ass. And credit has dried up, but that's not the fundmentals of the economy.
We still haven't had one single quarter of negative GDP growth, unemployment (while increasing) is still extremely low compared to history, and the US Dollar has been great over the past 6 months.
The stock market DOES NOT equal "the economy". I figure left wingers would realize this. Weren't you the ones that were saying in the 80s and '02-'06 that even though the market was doing great, regular people were still hurting?
Well, that sound logic is still true now. The fundamentals of the economy ARE strong right now. It's not a booming economy, but it's still strong.
WTF are you smoking? This economy SUCKS pig shit! It is the WORST economy since the great depression. Everyone I know, including upper middle class people who never worried about money before - are scared shitless.
Get back to us when you get a clue and can rub together a couple of I.Q. points. Jebus h-christ. The economy is strong? What are moron!
Really? Based on what metric? Why is this economy the worst since the great depression? Because you saw it on dailykos?
The market isn't even off as much as it was in '87. And "the market" (AKA Wall Street) is not the equivalent of "the economy" (AKA Main Street).
Inflation is still low. Unemployment is still low. GDP growth is still (barely) positive. The dollar is gaining strength. Those are four key economic indicators to determine the strength of the economy. You've cited none.
Please cite something. Anything to support your case.
Read my post, Anonymous. You want to cite ADMINISTRATION metrics, like inflation...that REAL economists say are wrong.
YOu want to know why...spend some time on Angry Bear. Those guys are way smarter than you or me. But I'm sure they can simplify it down to the two or three soundbite moments you need.
Amazingly, Henry Paulson, Ben Bernanke and Chris Dodd are on the line -- teleconferencing, gotta love it -- and they say you are correct!
The economic situation is exactly equivalent to pig shit being sucked by an upper middle class moron. Oh, wait, who's the moron?
It sucks, yeah. But a recession is bad, a deep recession is worse than our spoiled, fat frigging asses have known in a long, long time.
However, ranting like an idiot -- or Harry Reid, OK, same thing -- about things and speculating about disaster is a bit premature. Saying your comfortable friends are scared means they don't get it.
This is going to get worse, so you better take a chill pill. And by the way, if you want to blame a political party, blame BOTH of the MAJOR parties in the U.S. Bush was NOT at fault here. The Dems are denying all blame, so to me, that makes them even more specious in this mess than king of political asses, GW -- Pelosi, Reid, Dodd and Frank are jackasses and Obama is their best frigging friend, it would appear.
Umm, I believe the economist, Mr. "sucks pig shit" must be correct. After all, he is so eloquent. You ought to relent.
Gag. ; )
If a republican's lips are moving, they are lying.
Obama needs to stop calling health insurance healthcare. He needs to stop calling his or McCain's plans heathcare. Neither one of them are. It's a dishonest representation. It's health insurance, and it fixes nothing. It's a corporate welfre program for a bunch of thugs who don't deserve it. It's about inserting a parasitical middleman into the picture and giving them a lucrative sinecure. It's the most expensive way to go about providing access to healthcare. It's only giving the insurance companies about 50 million more opportunities to say "Screw you, Sucker, it isn't covered... but thanks for your cash!"
I find the labeling and selling of these plans as "healthcare" insulting. We're not stupid....stop it.
Universal healthcare is being proposed by John Conyers' HR 676, now with 91 co-sponsors (the last time I looked...and growing). Obama needs to sign on to it and give up on this corporatist BS, half-measure expedient.
But certainly not until AFTER the election. Anything that could ignite/unify the repugs is bad at this point.
Yeah, maybe he will. Agree that there's no since giving the thugs any rallying point issues.
I do like it that Obama has an open mind and is capable of rationally criticizing himself and his ideas. One of the things he needs to reassess, is his statement that he favors insurance, because(as one reason) the insurance companies represent an in-place infrastructure.That's a pretty bogus argument amounting to excuse making: the infra structure already exists in government via the Medicare/Medicaid, via the VA, via Social Security, and via the military medical care system. These could be combined/expanded very easily and very rapidly. Et, voila...no parasitical middleman apparatus.
For a National Healthcare Plan:
http://www.pnhp.org/
I can understand why McCain doesn't get it. He was brainwashed long ago into an ideology of greed and corporate corruption.
As a Registered Nurse who has worked in the trenches for 30 years I can testify to the fact that until we eliminate all the fat and waste (middlemen who represent the "for-profit" insurance companies), there will be zero chance of the American people having the security of realizing that their hard-earned tax dollars will be used to give them the health care they all NEED in order to survive.
Compared to every other modern, industrialized country, the whole world can clearly see that the U.S. government doesn't give a flying F about the American people. They are far more interested in supporting the military industrial complex than every day taxpayers. It's like Daddy coming home on Friday with his paycheck and demanding to the family that he needs to buy one more gun for the attic (even though the attic is already packed with guns), although little Johnny desperately needs a tonsillectomy and Mom needs treatment for her ruptured lumbar disc and can hardly walk anymore.
I'm hoping if Obama/Biden do win in November, that they will have a change of mind and heart and support the plan put forward by the physicians as linked above. It is the only way we will ever all know what health "care" really is.
That being said, they will also need to cut the nose off the military industrial complex, especially in light of recent economic turmoil, in order to get our priorities straight.
Daddy has enough weapons. It's time to move on to what the American people REALLY need.
That 's definitely moving in the right direction. Have you by any chance visited John Conyers' website? The HR 676 is posted there, include pretty much what PNHP is advocating, but goes a little farther in dealing with profit motive. There's a lot of good ideas out there for universal single-payer healthcare, just needing the will by some and conscience by others to make it happen.
I believe you'll find that most lefties and indies are smarter than the average bear.
Bear? Where? I think Sen. Larry Craig just had an orgasm!
In this economy, healthcare is going to become even more of a luxury.
... since his cancer is a pre-existing condition. If McCain was to be subjected to his own health care plan, no insurer would touch him with a 20 ft pole unless he was paying off pocket for his treatments.
That is the irony of it all.
This piece of shit truly has no shame. He must be a sick fuck, he is a rich old dude, he could just sit retire and enjoy his trophy wife... what the #@$#@ does he need to be in the white house and keep on screwing us? At some point the condition of these pricks has to be pathological.
Bingo! We have a winner.
I have been wondering for years what makes these sick evil bastards tick. They (Bush, Cheney, McCain) have more money than god, yet they spend all their time trying to screw working people out of a few more bucks.
If the media wants to play the guilt by association card, then we shall play, too.....beginning with Palin's Secessionist ties to this 'anti-american organization.
The left has plenty on these frauds - and it will come-a-rollin out soon.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-f-kenned...
Well, we are at 8500 and 5000 more to drop.
I wonder if all these trillions they are throwing at it will keep it from going below daddy bush’s recession levels?
Giving this money to Paulson and his VP is a terrible mistake. They should be forced to resign but still no accountability in this country.
The FBI needs to open a special division for this bailout because these criminals are too greedy to not steal it.
The fascist crooks are stealing it right out from under our noses and no one is doing a damn thing about it.
They already robbed us and now we are giving them more to steal. That's the irony of this crime.
With her obvious and intimate secessionist ties (AIP) and Todd's membership in the organization through 2002 (on the official roster of members) and her video taped support of "keeping up the good secessionist work" as Governor, I believe Paliban should be immediately disqualified from running for this office.
She can shoot wolves from a helicopter, that's experience you can impound on!
The DOW is at its lowest point since May 27, 2003.
I just want the same level of care and at the same cost Mr. McCain gets:
-Comprehensive
-No limits
-No Co-pays
-No pre-existing conditions
And by the way, he gets it for free.
Whe he decideds to go for the same level of coverage that most Americans have, and tries to buy it on the open market with his medical record, maybe then I would vote for him.
Otherwise he is just talking through his ass.
Win a Senate seat and you can.
Or get an incredible skill that makes you uniquely valuable to a company who will offer you that benefit.
Otherwise you should just die.... right? F**k-off you right wing psychopath!
pissed off patricia
The DOW is at its lowest point since May 27, 2003.
We haven't reached depression levels yet.
Boooooooooyah!
I'm a lot closer to depression level than I was last week.
What level does it have to drop to to be lower than it was when Bush took office?
Frank Keating joins the ranks of Sheriff Mike Scott of Florida and Bill Platt, GOP chair, Lehigh Valley, Pa. to be reviled as a stain on american society. This man stoops to dispicable levels today as he adds to the Paliban movement of the McCain/Paliban Terror Rallies.
Put this man's face and name everywhere you go as another "unpatriotic american" who's no better than the scum of the earth joining in on these domestic terrorist tactics of "inciting to violence" at these Paliban rallies.
This is another Keating McCain doesn't need to help tank him to the depths.
BigMike...I want McCain to get all the medical care he needs...after an angry mob rips off his nutsack.
McCain said today in his town hall stump speech that Obama would give us the same type insurance that Canada has. Everyone in the audience boo-ed.
I mean, can you imagine if we were forced to expect decent health care for every one, and what would we do with all that extra time that we may have for not having to deal with all that overhead in paper work...
Imagine pharmacist being health care professionals and not insurance clerks, and doctors being able to focus on practicing medicine. The horror, I tell you... the horror!
It is amazing, somehow I feel that Americans deserve this shit, no one can be so dumb as to boo against their own self-interests. 80% of the GOP electorate are proactively voting against their interests... that kind of dumb does not occur naturally in nature, it must have been specially breed in some lab.
That is a reflection of the power of relentless and pervasive, top-down orchestrated propaganda: people are manipulated into supporting things which go so far against their own self-interest as to be suicidal.
pissed off patricia
McCain said today in his town hall stump speech that Obama would give us the same type insurance that Canada has. Everyone in the audience boo-ed.
And once again....the ignorance of the American People is unequalled in the world!
These are handpicked GOP moron operatives. Just like the brain dead goons who follow W's travelling idiot show. There is NOTHING in Rove- land that is unscripted or left to chance.
They are probably all connected to the insurance lobby - knowing how repukes operate.
Sheriff Mike Scott of Lee County, Florida
Bill Platt, GOP Chair, Lehigh Valley, Pa
Add Frank Keating to this illustrious list of domestic terrorist inciters.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/09/mcca...
pissed off patricia
I'm a lot closer to depression level than I was last week.
I think Laura Bush has something that can help you with that.
I am not a conventionally religious man, or even a very superstitious one, but I do wish George W. Bush would stop asking God to bless America.
Every time he does, we seem to be visited with another plague, suggesting divine wrath over our president's evil ways. How else to explain the persistent calamity that has marked this administration: a pointless but very costly war over nonexistent Iraqi WMD, the destruction by flood of New Orleans, the betrayal of the nation by the moneychangers - from Enron to Goldman Sachs - who Bush welcomed into the temple of the White House?
Read the rest of this great article
The proposal of McCain's is bonanza for the insurance industry. He wants deregulation: how has that worked for the banks (remember the Keating Five) and the mortgage industry?
The hypocrisy is that McCain has never, ever once NOT been covered by a government paid and run health care system. Consider, he was born to a career Naval officer, so his birth was covered by the Navy, his health care as a child was Naval. Then he went to the Naval Academy and into the Navy. He was always covered by government paid and managed health care. After his separation from the Navy, he was still covered by VA health care as a medically retired officer. The he was elected to the House and now the Senate, so he has the government, platinum plated, health care paid for and managed by the government. Still he is adamantly opposed the ordinary citizen to have government health care. What a hypocrite!
Same for Phil "the Whiner" Gramm. They have both been on the government dole since they were in the womb, and all they do is try to cancel government programs for other people. They are both absolutely sickening!
US Taxpayer-paid health care!
He is a war hero, how dare you!
(J/K)
They cannot be solved until America addresses two fundamental problems:
1. Expense. You are charging some old lady in the hospital $20 for an aspirin, when a whole bottle of aspirin costs only $5. But the old lady can't just suffer, so she has to pay. That's Wrong. It's extortion. The government needs to create a fee schedule for treatments and supplies that hospitals must adhere to. If they charge more than the schedule says, the patient is refunded the difference and the hospital is fined. The schedule must be based on realistic fees, so that patients aren't bankrupted and can realistically be expected to pay their bills.
2. Insurance Fraud. By this I don't mean insurance fraud by patients, but by companies. The patient signs up for a plan in good faith, and pays her dues. If she files a claim, and that claim is denied, and there is evidence that the claim was wrongly denied, then the company should lose their license, the board of directors and top executives must be dismissed, and the company taken over by government receivers until a new board of directors and top executives can be recruited. The previous executives and directors would be barred from working in the health care industry thereafter.
If someone can make a profit by letting someone else die or suffer, they will.
Anonymous (not verified)
regardless of our political stripes, I think we can all agree that freerepublic.com is the worst site on the Internet.
Oh c'mon...politicals dont have stripes. They're chameleons that change color with their surroundings.
The problem is with the argument itself not taking in the bigger picture. Both McCain and Obama have it wrong. Where as laws that curtail monopolies and punish business for causing harm are necessary, regulation and bureaucracy are bad. The bureaucracy steals from the many to first feed the monster, then to the few. The regulation and lack of effective courts allows for bad business to succeed. Per someone else example.. if a state does not require a particular coverage it might not carry that coverage.. which would put them out of business or cause them to change their policy when in competition with many other businesses that carry that coverage to gain that sector of the market. The money taken from the masses to feed the bureaucracy is money better put into the paychecks of the individual. Both demublican candidates want to serve certain groups, many of those groups over lap.. neither of them wants what is best for everyone. I know a great many people who have relocated from one state to another with a major factor being the states laws on a particular pet issue. Though I don't think it would come to that, it could given state law competition as well.
To remind us that in order to fix what deregulation broke, we must have more deregulation.
McCain: "we need to do for the healthcare industry, what we've done for the banking industry"... deregulate..... Riiiight... Or we could just cut to the chase and throw the money and/or health insurance policies given out in this type of environment into the fireplace and burn it up, or maybe roll it up and use it to whipe our asses with... Because at the end of the day? If we follow the McLame idea to its logical conclusion? The type of healthcare we'd end up with in THAT world with would pretty much amount to about the same as the above.
And for the poster who tried to sell the meme that some insurance company in Cali and Michigan provide some certain benefits EVEN though they aren't mandated to do this??? And by some magic implication this means the free market applied to this environment is good and proper??? You can take it to the bank that those benefits would be shitcanned just as soon as a deregulated environment was legally established.... Afterall, there's no profit incentive for shareholders in 'actually paying out benefits' on an insurance policy. That's why they only want to sign up the young and healthy... THAT'S WHY the 'for profit' motivated model is ill applied to health care at all dammit!
Ya know, some of these morons really needs to check out the old (maybe 10 years now) flic 'Rainmaker' for a little insight into how that industry actually functions... Yea, I know, it was just a movie.. So was fucking 'WALL ST.'!! Yet, some apparently seemed to think Gordon Gecko was providing a blueprint... The shorter story on this is in the form of a question: Will the health insurance industry take your money and then not be there for you when you really need them??? The answer is already yes... In a deregulated world, that answer becomes a resounding HELL YES!!!! JD
Anonymous (not verified)
The big secret is that the economy is actually fundamentally sound. The stock market sucks ass. And credit has dried up, but that's not the fundmentals of the economy.
We still haven't had one single quarter of negative GDP growth, unemployment (while increasing) is still extremely low compared to history, and the US Dollar has been great over the past 6 months.
The stock market DOES NOT equal "the economy". I figure left wingers would realize this. Weren't you the ones that were saying in the 80s and '02-'06 that even though the market was doing great, regular people were still hurting?
Well, that sound logic is still true now. The fundamentals of the economy ARE strong right now. It's not a booming economy, but it's still strong.
Ok...there's so much ignorance of economics in there...I'm not sure where to start.
First. You ASSUME that the government indicators are correct. That's you first mistake. First of all...the inflation numbers are WRONG. They do not include food and energy. Second, the Fed has not issued a measure of M3 for rougly 10 years...or more. Three, interest rates are not reflective of market conditions, because they are being held artificially low...hence...all these factors are driving the numbers are WRONG...the reports are WRONG.
While I agree that the stock market is somewhat decoupled from main street...I would argue that that may not be as true today as it was in the past. So much "main street" money, that in the past was kept in traditional banks...is now kept in "private" banks...money market fund companies...etc.
Also...there is a lag factor in thert also. Economic numbers always trail the real economy...roughly by 30 to 45 days...and LATER...as they are typically readjusted after several months.
So..A) either don't be fooled by the numbers...or B) don't sell us your snake oil.
Capital is largely Credit, when credit freezes... a capitalistic system collapses.
What this crash may be good for is to change or wake up people to the fact that it is all perception.
Wealth does not really exist, as it is really an "abstract" concept. We are literally freaking out because something that never existed (inflated derivatives) has collapsed.
In some aspects, I hate to agree with Marx. In which he predicted that a system based purely on capital is not substainable since it requires continuous growth. It is not a good idea to use an engine that requires infinite growth in a finite reality.
We can do better, and we need to evolve. We have technology, and instead we have used it to work more for less. Where as technology should take care of our needs, and allow people to pursue higher human achievements. There is enough resources to provide food, housing, and care for most humans in this world. Which are the basic rights for a human. It just required that 1 to 5% of the people compromise and and are able to live without 10 mansions, 5 boats, and a gulfstream... and are able to come with terms with the fact that "partying" is not a real job.
Oh, well... I am not holding my breath. But isn't it sad that we are making our lives miserable, when if we just fucking chilled and were able to be OK with each other, things would be so much fucking easier.
a liberal extremist - love it!
Economic crisis have been a constant in human history, all the way back to even before Roman times. Heck, the Roman empire at some point almost collapsed due to a credit crisis.
We are going as a species over and over this situations, and I read somewhere that one of the definitions of insanity is to "do the same over and over and expect a different result." So yes, maybe it is time to do something different... and definitively more humane.
Heck, for such a Christian society, it is funny to see Americans starting to pray when the economy is in the shitter to request more money, which is supposed to be the root of all evil.
The factual problem is that those 5% will not just hand over the fruits of their abilities and bear the burden of the other 95% out of altruism.
There is a tipping point, and they eventually will just say F it, I quit. You try to run this company.
Grand scale redistribution will not ever be sustainable.
But let's just think of it as an emergency measure and try it out for the next couple years until the prognosis improves.
According to the good book it is supposed a flaw, a fatal one at that.
People like you need to start understanding that "ability" alone is a neutral quality. A thief may be very rich because of his abilities to steal... that doesn't meant that I would respect such thief over a brilliant philosopher who drives a beat down civic.
Money doesn't make right... and you are the proverbial fool who defends those screwing you, because you are stupid enough to think the rich are doing you a favor by exploiting you.
You have had some really brilliant posts over the last few days.
Just wanted to take a moment to say thank you and give you a pat on the back.
Good job, man!
to create.
Create ideas which create businesses which create products or services which vast amounts of consumers wish to willfully pay money to acquire.
Not everyone can do it; in fact very few can. It's a rare skill to have the ingenuity to create, the drive to build, and the personality to lead. And if we decide to just take their wealth; they will stop working. Good luck finding a replacement that will drive production. Bill Gates can do your job; you can't do his.
I sincerely doubt Bill Gates could do my job. Nor that he would want to... since I had to spent a few years in poverty doing my degree and furthering the state of the art by doing silly things like conducting research ad publishing papers. Looking at Mr. Gates' life choices. He could not be bothered with even finishing his own degree, as he was too busy making wads of money off other people's work, and putting together a monopoly based on predatory principles which may have been partially responsible on setting back the field I work (Computers) a good decade or so.
Again, stop assuming that money makes right.
I am not saying everybody needs to be the same, however I would like to see Bill Gates create the same empire without the poor saps who have to work 80 hrs a week at Microsoft.
It is interested to see the poor idiots who fight tooth and nail for the right to be exploited. It gives an insight on how the few can control the many.
Ok, so you have no actual evidence or statistics to back up your claim that the economy is in dire straits? Now maybe we're playing a semantic game. I'm absolutely not saying that the economy is booming. Are you not saying that the economy is "the worst since the depression" like the ignorant newsies are and has been posted in this thread? If we're haggling over "still ok but getting worse" and "already kind of bad and getting worse" then, it's not much of a discussion.
But just to say "yeah ignore all the data, it's bad because I say it's bad" is a pretty laughably weak argument.
Cite some numbers that show a bad economy. No one is going to disagree that the economy now compared to 6-12 months ago is bad, but these chicken little folks claiming it's horrible have no idea what they are talking about. It's nowhere near as bad as even the 70s or early 90s. Not even anywhere close.
Those 700,000 jobs lost in the past 7 months must be part of our collective "mental recession."
Remember when I said I wasn't disagreeing that the economy is weaker now than it was 6-12 months ago? Like explicitly in the post to which you replied? Remember? Wasn't that fun?
Just because it's weaker now than it was last year, doesn't make it a recession now; nor does it mean that the fundamentals are not still strong. It especially doesn't mean that we are in some dire death spiral in the worst economy since the 30s as has been mentioned in this thread.
I've cited actual tangible facts to support my claim. You have not. Feel free to actually support your case that this economy is in horrible shape. And when you do so, try not to look at a time frame of 18 months. Compare NOW vs. the last 50 years. You'll see the fundamentals are quite strong. If you choose to cite "OMG OMG BIGGEST DOW DROP EVER!!!!" I will laugh for three reasons.
1. Citing the stock market like it = the economy's strength
2. Citing the DOW to infer any meaning whatsoever
3. Looking at the absolute drop rather than the relative drop.
... or what a recession is. A 30% drop in 6 months basically... is huge.
You are citing your thesis on the fact that the stock market is not the only indicator. That is true, but you are recursing to a logical fallacy to make your point.
Stock market captures not only "futures and perception" but also realities like P/E ratios and so forth. So even though it is not the only indicator, it is none the less an important indicator.
The fact that so many banks have collapsed is troubling. Banks at this point are not even lending each other money. A credit freeze in a capital-based system is troubling as it collapses economic operation.
I am willing to wage that you are either:
a) Not an owner of a small/medium business since are not aware of the current credit freeze and the importance of credit lines for conducting business.
b) You do not have a retirement portfolio as to be unaware of the fact that most 401Ks have not grown, but with the recent drop in the market may have actually lost money.
c) You have no historical perspective to understand that during the crisis of the 1930s, the 1970s, and the mid 1980s/early 90s. The US did not have the same level of debt as we have right now which will be at over 10 trillion if I am not mistaken.
or d) you are simply going through the first stage of grief: denial.
So the health care "market" devolves to the point where it looks exactly like the system that has come about for merchandise. The "dollar stores" of health, the "Walmarts" and "Sears" of health all the way up to the 'Saks" and 'Bloomingdales' of health. If you can't pay then you don't have a say. What a philosophy!
A comparison between McCain's health care and credit card deregulation.
http://www.slate.com/id/2191699/
Some discrepancies in the somewhat dated article. McCain now clarifies that employers can continue to deduct health care costs. Employees will have the value of the employer paid health taxed as imputed income. Other than that, and particularly, the analogy to credit card deregulation, article seems valid. No inflation protection for McCain's proposal.
Why? Why do you even bother with Olbermann? Why? This guy cannot admit he is a liberal, yet is one bordering on psychosis. He has wet dreams about Obama on air, and you bother to use anything from his show as reporting? Why? This guy is the anti-Rush Limbaugh, but with a lobotomy and the removal of all journalistic training and good humor (smarmy humor, full intact). Plllleasssse!
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