Meet the Press: Here's Your Bipartisan Agreement: The Health-Care Reform Bill Is Terrible
Hell has officially frozen over. After more than a decade of hyper-partisanship and knee-jerk, reactionary opposition to the other, the entire political spectrum of Meet the Press's roundtable panel--Markos Moulitsas, Joe Scarborough, Ed Gillespie and Tavis Smiley--all agree on one thing: the health-care reform bill sucks. There's the vaunted bipartisanship Obama sought.
Laughing off Whiter House adviser David Axelrod's spin of the historic (and not-as-bad-as-it-seems) nature of the bill, Markos points out that all this bill does is expand an already broken system, a proven failed program in Massachusetts. Scarborough adds that for all the White House talk that the insurance companies hate the bill, there is no regulation that Congress didn't capitulate on after pushback from the insurance lobbies and if they hate it so much, why has the value of their stock gone up so much recently? Former RNC Chair Ed Gillespie can barely contain his glee at the thought of the seats the GOP will pick up, because of this bill, and Smiley notes that Candidate Obama's rhetoric doesn't measure up to President Obama's actions and bemoans the incrementalism mentality:
I do believe that you have to stand on your principle. With all due respect to the White House and the President, who deserves who deserves great credit for taking this issue on and pushing further down the field than any other seven Presidents have done, you still have to ask, where is the principle that we started out with, and how firm have we stood on that principle? I thnk the danger for this White House is this: that the President and his team appear to be incrementalists. I warned the last time I was on this program, quoting Dr. King, about taking “the tranquilizing drug of gradualism.”
I love that line, and it resonates as much today as it did when Dr. King tried dissuade those who wanted to take an incremental approach to civil rights and segregation.
The sad thing is how clear this is to us here outside the Beltway, and how badly calculated this was to those inside the White House. And I don't think this was some malevolent intent on their part, but just a triangulating, DLC/Centrist move that completely didn't take into account that we now inhabit the post-Clinton/Bush era. I don't think there's any question that the White House must accept responsibility for the lameness of the bill--although they'll never do it publicly and risk giving more fodder to the GOP media--Feingold and Webb are already pointing fingers.
And at this point, I don't know what can be done to make this better. Tempting as it might be to thrown in the towel, the ramifications of that politically (you throw a bone like that to the GOP and nothing will get through Congress next session) will be a nightmare, and besides which, there's no guarantee they'd be able to achieve anything, much less anything better on a second go-round. So all in all, I have to agree with Joe Scarborough, as much as it deeply pains me to do so: we've been screwed.
The health insurance bill demonstrates the futility of trying to accomplish anything with Congress before instituting Campaign Finance Reform. We need to make bribing Congress illegal again before any bill passing through Congress can survive to serve the public interest.
Until we kick the lobbyists out of Congress, we don't actually have Democracy in America.
Imagine how this bill might have looked if lobbyists weren't clawing at it every step of the way.
"The Good and Great Must Ever Shun, That Reckless and Abandoned One
Who Stoops to Perpetrate a Pun," Lewis Carroll, 'The Three Voices.'
I guess we'll have to wait for the Republicans to get back in power to fix it. lol
Likes that's every going to happen.
Well. . . . the President CERTAINLY IS uniting both parties.. .
. .. against him. . .
My Republican friend just said that this is the first time he has ever agreed with Howard Dean. . and this morning was the first time I have agreed with Lindsey Graham.
Obama would have had a fireside chat going out the door saying that he wanted to simply increase Medicare to every American, allow all insurance company employees to have the first crack at the jobs that would be opened up to deal with the influx of millions of new patients and that the CEO's of those companies would be getting their pink slips (since there would no longer be any reason to go to work) and that they'd just have to retire or find some new human beings to leech off.
People would have been dancing in the streets. ALL the Senators and House members would have gotten the message loud and clear. "This is the way I want it. This is the way the American People want it (according to polling), this is the most affordable way to cover every American with the highest quality of care and this is what I said I wanted to do in 2003 when I spoke before a union group in Illinois. You can find a copy of the legislation I am asking Congress to pass on-line and it comes in at a whopping 40 pages. I hope everyone will get it, read it and send me your comments. Thank you and God Bless America."
But instead, he invited the CEO of United Health Plans to lunch.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
would look if everybody canceled their health policy and the insurance companies had no money to stay in business.
I don't know what can be done to make this better.
Nothing. We lost. We went into this knife fight as if it was a pillow fight and got our asses handed to us.
What to do about it? This is politics. It's time to show the Democrats that we mean business, and that our votes are not to be taken for granted.
STAY HOME ON ELECTION DAY.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Yes, cause Republicans always make better legislation.
we've been screwed.
And they didn't even kiss us.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Some guys don't like to kiss. Fear of intimacy, etc.
.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Yes, cause Republicans always make better legislation.
Oh...the Dems really know how to make better legislation. LOL.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Special interests make legislation small penis. They work through either party with great ease.
Your vote no longer matters.
If both parties and the general public all agree this bill sucks, then how did it pass the senate with a filibuster proof majority?
Nov 2010 is coming. Let's remember to reward those who voted for this shit.
Were you not listening on Sunday.
David Axelrod said the polls are WRONG on this! LOLOL! And that they are not payiing attention to the polls!! LOLOL. NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THE POLLS!!! LOLOL.
He could have just as well have said..."Suck it, bitches!!"
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Staying home is the equivalent of quitting.
We are not quitters. Progressives fight for their ideals.
The Democratic Party is hopelessly corrupted and is under the control of corporations.
There is no other choice at this point than to fight fire with fire.
We need a new party.
I'm ready to join in today and to lose a few elections until people realize that the only way to really beat the Republicans and institute true change we can believe in is to join the new party.
BOTH parties need to be taken down. A third party is the only way.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Do that (form and vote for a third party) and you guarantee a republican majority forever. If you do not vote, you vote for a republican by not canceling out the vote of a conservative GOP'er.
Scream like hell at those Blue Dog (republicans)democrats who switched parties because their own party (the GOP) became so oderous. Make the Ben Nelsons, Max Baucus et/al squirm. While we are at it, we should do the same to ANY "democrat" who did not publicly promote health care. Like Bart Stupak, Kent Conrad and others. That includes John Kerry, my Senator who argued for the ability of ALL americans to buy into the same health care he and congress could buy into. When he ran for President. Times change.
Theresa Amato here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
A GOP majority or the same old shit we get time and again from centrist/corportist Democrats? I'm not so sure there's much difference. Obama's presidency, while still young, looks a bit too much like a George Bush third term for me to feel hopeful or comfortable. What the Dems need to see is the immediate drying up of support and votes to rip them back into line.
"By words the mind is winged." - Aristophanes
We need more progressive Democrats, and we need to put out the blue dogs. The only real answer is to make the con$erative$ irrelevant.
The Democrats are bought and paid for.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
on this. The Democrats lost me. I'm not voting for a one of them in the 2010 midterms. I'm going put my energy behind 3rd party candidates. I've had enough, enough, enough.
"By words the mind is winged." - Aristophanes
"Here's a guy who was supposed to actually do something with his presidency, and he's turned into the skinny little geek on Cell Block D who gets passed around like a rag doll for the pleasure of all the fellas with the tattoos there."
H/T mountainman23. Funny read.
I believe his name is "TAVIS Smiley"
Tavis Smiley?
Wasn't he the game show host on Sesame Street?
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
No, that was GUY Smiley.
"The Good and Great Must Ever Shun, That Reckless and Abandoned One
Who Stoops to Perpetrate a Pun," Lewis Carroll, 'The Three Voices.'
You're right. Sometimes my typing is on auto-pilot.
Thanks for the heads up.
That was a rare scene to be sure.
Goodnight, Frau Blücher
to slap the public option in a defense appropriations bill in reconciliation, that'll fix some of it. just keep doing that incrementally
Yes, we must work incrementally. We can't have a rush on this. We must be slow and exacting...unless the insurance companies need a financial bailout...then it must be done quickly...or we'll alllll die...even Grandma!
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
The more war we wage, the better our health care system will be.
They never seem to be afraid of feeding the war machine, whats a couple billion more?
I'll bet Bernie would do it.
The dems were determined to pass anything before Christmas for the sake of appearances. Looks like we got a Christmas turd in our stocking.
Well...at least you got "SOMETHING"!! LOLOL!
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Emanuel/Axelrod 2012!
The slogan..."We've cut out the middle man!"
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
The Wizard of Oz last night, and I couldn't help but notice a lot of similarities between that movie and the current policitcal landscape.
Dorothy = Nancy Pelosi
The Ruby Red Slippers = power, and the wicked witch wants them
The Straw Man = Republicans (brainless)
The Cowardly Lion = Democrats (no courage)
The Tin Man = Joe Lieberman or Dick Cheney (heartless)
Ann Coulter = the Wicked Witch, always in the background, flying around poisoning everything she touches (could be Glenn Beck as well)
The Flying Monkeys = Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, FOX News
Obama = the Wizard, the man behind the curtain; all talk and no real power.
The Democrats should load this bill up with everything on their wish list; single payer, public option, everything. Let the Republicans kill it. At least then they will get some use out of it in the mid-term elections.
I thought Obama was Toto in that he would do whatever the other characters told him.
Toto saved the day by pulling the curtain back and revealing the truth.
Obama is "going along to get along" with his corporate masters.
Who needs a coup d' etat?!
Just write a check!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
The Democrats should load this bill up with everything on their wish list; single payer, public option, everything.
Let me know how that works out.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
The Democrats should load this bill up with everything on their wish list; single payer, public option, everything.
Or . . .
REMOVE THE MANDATE! And dare the Republicans and Blue Dogs to vote against the bill because of that!
That's the secret!
Your blown tv money is powerless against the money given to our blowing Representatives.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
we all see how effective Boob Tube ads are.
he'll throw some great commercials together.
Let me know if he does and I'll throw down some money.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Toss it man.
You can wish all you want…
Consider Pinocchio as with Louis here
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
I thought that was "The Secret"?
We will get there with each newly re-minted serf in the land of
opportunityFeudalism 2.0.Yes we can
It's the change we need
It's the change we can believe
It's hope…
In 2012 it will be NEW and IMPROVED CHANGE…
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
I mean where hyper-partisanship is the norm.
The bi-partisanship that Obama keeps calling for is a relic of the past.
and I haven't even had my second cup of coffee.
This is all so f'ing depressing.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Later guys
is unhappy with the bill that would suggest the usual result of a negotiated compromise has been achieved. In such cases no one ever is happy.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The Corporations are happy.
They got everything they wanted, for them, the negotiations were a complete success.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
to pour funds into political and AstroTurf opposition. Curious.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
The corporations are not monolithic.
The Teabaggers and AstroTurf are largely creations of the Republicans themselves.
They and their political media arm courtesy of Ruppert Murdock.
The insurance companies and big Pharma are very quiet. That tells me all I need to know about their opinions.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Don't mind throwing them a bone, either. I'm not even afraid of the next Republican Congress and administration. Waving the "watch out, this will elect Republicans" flag at me does no good any more, because the health care issue makes it crystal clear that our party isn't any better.
LET Sarah Palin try to run the country. Maybe after it's been run completely into the ground, we'll finally get people out in the streets.
Are we's learnin' yet!
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Agreed, America needs to hit bottom.
or batshit crazy, but I remember distinctly the whining that ensued after Clinton signed the welfare deform act. The activists on behalf of poor women were shocked SHOCKED that beloved home boy Billy would actually throw them under the bus.
'I mean really,' they whined, 'he even let us meet with him at the white house and listened to us! We thought he had our backs!'.
No he didn't, he never did and a polite little nod and wave and "remember to vote next election" doesn't make a fucking commitment in that town.
Money does.
I remember distinctly that major press people on the left lamented how horrible the welfare deform bill was for battered women and for women needing job training or educational assistance.
"Oh don't worry honey," they patronized us worriers and exhausted faithless, "We'll get that taken care of later."
Sure, its easy to say that when its not your ass hanging in the wind and the same applies here.
I could care less what any talking head says or what any analyst says because in all reality, they don't care. They can't understand unless the hurt is on them personally and frankly, as long as they play the court jester, they will be fine.
So, in summary, if I am forced to take some sum out of my already meager earnings to fund a corporate entity to rob me and extort me by my arm or leg or my lungs, they can kiss my ass and I hope they will put me in jail. I will drag anyone and everyone I can with me.
This bill is unjust and borderline fascist. And as a woman, I am disgusted that once again, women's lives and welfare were used as mere bargaining chips and of course -- all the men in the press have nothing to little to say about that.
Refusal to play the game, refusal to pay is the only noise that will be heard. The system is corrupt to the core, there is no conceivable way, until people are pressured to act against it, that anything will change.
!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
It's Tavis Smiley. Hook a brotha up!
http://www.pbs.org/kcet/tavissmiley/
Happy Holidays Nicole you are my favorite!
My bad. I've fixed it.
I cannot bring myself to watch this, I know what the corporate media has to offer as far political spectrum goes. Which is to say very little.
Usually from dead center of Attila the Hun to somewhere to his right.
That may be the entire spectrum of the panel but it is not saying much.
In this the case the blogger must be an outlier.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
BREAKING NEWS!
The Democrats, in the interest of cost cutting, have decided that orange jumpsuits would continue to be used for prisoners arrested for not paying for their healthcare.
The GOP are calling for red, white and blue jumpsuits and screaming that the Democrats hate America.
Harry Reid is working out a compromise, but Joe Lieberman says he can't vote for any such bill unless prisoners are only allowed bread and water.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Couldn't have put it better!
This panel was complete bullshit. Everyone on the panel really had nothing interesting or intelligent to say. They also have no sense of context.
A couple of points:
1) If a stronger healthcare bill did not pass you can only blame yourselves. It is all too easy to sit here on this website and bicker amongst yourself and speak to the already converted. The Obama adminstration did an incredible job at bringing healthcare to the forefront and spending so much time and political capital trying to get the best bill they could get passed. The problem was that the Democratic voters and people on websites like Crooks n Liars did not show up for the war. The other side was very vocal in their rallies. Where were the supporters of healthcare reform? Where were the pro-healthcare reformers' rallies and their rallying cry? You the democratic voter did a very poor job at convincing America and the Blue Dogs that it was worth getting behind strong reform and that you had the backs of the Blue Dog senators. Blame yourself! You, the supporters of strong healthcare reform, lost the messaging war. Obama, as he said at the beginning, needed everyone to move his agenda forward, and he got no one, except a bunch of people or his supporters bitching and complaining. It is the people that make the difference on these kinds of huge and difficult issues.
2) The healthcare lobby is too strong. The influence they have on the Republicans (who supported nothing and do not want to see any reform) and a few democrats is too strong. You need to find a way to break the lobbyist lock on our politicians. Republicans should be shamed for doing absolutely nothing, but trying to block healthcare reform. Sure the Democrats had the majorities, but there were likely always going to be a few democrats who would not support reform, but it was complete bullshit that not one Republican supported reform, particularly when most Republican states have the worse healthcare in the country. 1 in 4 Texans has zero health insurance. Alot of blame also has to go to the Republicans. Shameful.
3) Do not blame Obama. As long as 60 votes were needed to pass the senate then healthcare reform was really in the hands of those Senators and not Obama. There was very little Obama could do to get Liberman and others on side. What else could he have done? The problem is that government is broken. The need for 60 votes on everything is bullshit. The 60 votes is self imposed and not in the constitution. In every other country on the planet if a political party wins this large of an election they would be able to pass some serious laws and reforms. Only in America can a political party dominate everything and still be able to pass nothing. The system is broken. You need to tell your politicians to fix the system.
4) Healthcare reform should not be viewed as a static point. It was admirable and important that a healthcare bill gets passed. It is the start of reform and not the end of reform. The healthcare problems are not going away. Reform will take many years to develop. The train has left the station. The public now has a much larger vested interest, as so many have now paid more attention over the last 9 months to this isssue. People were talking about healthcare like they have never talked about healthcare before.
5) Americans are idiots. People in this country will believe anything. There was so much false information, like I have never seen before for any single piece of legislation. Many people have no understanding of the issues and what they really mean to them. "Government stay away from my Medicare". etc. etc. etc. People will bend over and take it, and have no idea who is giving it to them or that they do not have to take it. You can ask many people who are against healthcare reform some very basic questions about why they are against healthcare reform and they really have no response. They are just against it because they have been told to be against it. The rest of the planet just laughs at Americans.
6) The press are idiots. They gave very poor information during this entire healthcare debate. People really had no idea about the real issues and I saw almost no good reporting on the problems, the solutions and what all of this actually means. The press did not show up for this debate, if you can call it a debate.
7) Americans want everything, but do not want to pay for it. Americans want access to the best medicine, drugs, as many doctors visits as possible, but are unwilling to pay for it. Either in insurance preimums or taxes. The rest of the world does pay for it and is willing to accept less healthcare. As soon as you mention rationing of medicine everything comes to a halt. Other countries ration healthcare because they budget for it every year. Americans will never accept this, but at the same time don't want to pay for the endless medicine they demand. That is the key dilema and the healthcare industry takes advantage of this by generating obscene profits for what should be a basic right.
a- it is all our fault, the people failed to reform health
b- leave poor obama alone, he is only the president
c- and if your health insurance co has rationed your care (ie, denied care, recision, etc), you're wrong, your care wasn't really rationed b/c americans wouldn't stand for it.
*smacks head in disbelief*
a - you just cannot elect a president and sit on your hands, especially with this big an issue and when the other side is organized and very vocal. this was a war and the democratic supporters were only half hazardly in it.....
b - no one is saying leave "poor" obama alone, but given the system we have and the Republican stance to block everything, it is very difficult to pass any meaningful reform on anything. not obama's fault, but the fault of the system. Good luck on immigration and cap and trade. no way in hell Obama will get anything meaningful passed, even if he wanted to. Impossible to get 60 votes on anything that would be consider strong legislation.
c - sure health insurance companies ration care, no dispute there, but Americans still want endless doctor visits, drugs, testing, etc. etc. and do not want to pay for it. This is the biggest difference between the U.S. and other countries. Other countries budget their healthcare every year and then pay for it through taxes. American by in large would never accept this. The chant is always no taxes and no rationing. That equation does not work.
Bullshit. Complete, and utter bullshit. As an American I want to visit the doctor when I'm not feeling well, I want tests that will tell the doctor what is wrong with me, or what is NOT wrong with me. I do not want to pay for it when paying for it means I'm footing the bill for 30% overhead, grotesque profits, and executive pay that rivals the GNP of small countries.
Obama is squarely to blame for this debacle. As president, HE, not the villagers or the senate, controlled the debate, but he chose to sit it out and wait for the inevitable corporate crap that would come out of the Congress.
And I will add a few comments to yours:
PNHP/Health Care Now and other organizations DID rally doctors and nurses to go to the Baucus hearings because the Democrats/Obama took Single Payer off the table from the start. They were arrested for their efforts. So don't say that we didn't try to sway the debate.
Many thousands of phone calls and emails were generated by those who supported a "robust public option" and single payer to our representatives. We were shut out because we had not written big checks to them for their campaigns
The media made sure that any mention of Single Payer was shut out of the public discourse. Take ABC's "Prescription for America" event with Obama. The only Single Payer advocate, Obama's own personal physician of 20 years, was DISINVITED two days prior to the taping.
I met with my member of Congress in the Berkshires this past summer with 12 other doctors and nurses. There were members of PNHP meeting with Congress members all over the country. But again, when we are not the ones writing the big checks, nor having the power of the DNC/DLC we are NOT in the drivers seats with these Congress members, the corporate lobbyists are driving the agenda, not us.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Good for you, but there needed to be millions like you. The other side showed up, obviously helped by the money of the lobbyists, but the healthcare supporters largely did not show up. Where were healthcare reformers at the townhalls? To little too late.
The Baucus Thirteen, healthcare professionals all, Doctors and Nurses showed up for initial Baucus committee hearings and WERE ARRESTED.
You are viewing the entire matter through the wrong end of the telescope.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Where the mass protests of this? Where was the public outcry of this by all the strong healthcare reform supporters? Zero... nadda... a few websites that is it....
There have been significant demonstrations, none of which were carried by the dysfunctional main stream media.
Is that where you get your information, or from Propaganda Central at the White House?
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Different,
You are right. Healthcare should be non-profit and take much of the overhead out. I agree, but that does not mean that many Americans are not spoiled by their system and want everything, but want to pay nothing for it. No new taxes, for example.
"the most significant reason Americans are drowning in health care debt may shock you: Americans are getting far too much unnecessary care. Of our total $2.3 trillion health care bill last year, a whopping $500 billion to $700 billion was spent on treatments, tests, and hospitalizations that did nothing to improve our health. Even worse, new evidence suggests that too much health care may actually be killing us. According to estimates by Elliott Fisher, M.D., a noted Dartmouth researcher, unnecessary care leads to the deaths of as many as 30,000 Medicare recipients annually."
"Many physicians believe that demanding patients are the reason they are delivering so much unnecessary care. Patients insist on getting a prescription for a drug they saw advertised on TV, or on getting an unnecessary and pricey imaging test, such as a CT scan. Doctors comply for fear the patient will leave them for another physician, or because explaining why a drug or a test is unnecessary takes too much time. As one pediatric specialist told me, he’d rather send a child for an unnecessary imaging scan than fight with the kid’s parents, who will only think he’s incompetent because they know their child needs a scan."
"50% portion of surgeries, tests, and procedures that are not backed by scientific evidence"
http://www.aarpmagazine.org/health/health_car...
or look at explosion of healthcare use here
http://www.usnews.com/health/family-health/he...
If you want this much healthcare compared to everyone else on the planet, then don't complain about paying for it. Americans want everything, but are always unwilling to pay for it. Americans have have been conditioned to this medical overkill. Say one word about cutting back or budgeting healthcare services and that is political suicide.
As for Obama entirely to blame... i am not sure what exactly he is entirely to blame for? Can you explain to me how exactly he was going to get the 60 votes in the Senate for say a strong public option? Obama cannot vote in the senate. Your logic makes no sense.
And you do?
Citing AARP and USNEWS is not unbiased.
I will say from the volume and rapidity of your submissions that YOU are not an individual.
TROLL ALERT
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
you are all over this website all the time. you must not be an individual and be a TROLL as you call it?
U could cite many sources about Americas over use of healthcare. anyways hardly worth debating you.
my larger point from above, was the MTP discussion cited above on healthcare and the potential for a bill was BS and superficial. There was no real discussion of how we got to where we are, other than to "blame" Obama. Complete BS.
I blame Obama completely.
But I didn't vote for him, so I am not surprised or disappointed.
It is exactly the bill he wanted.
It is a continuation of the corrupt privatization of the public space and welfare for select corporations in exchange for their campaign contributions.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Um, you only need 51 votes to pass something through the Senate. If Obama put the screws to his party, he'd get those easily. He didn't, and the lobbyists were allowed to write the bill.
If the Reps wanted to fillibuster they should have been allowed to, so there's a record that they are going against the majority of the American people who are in favor of single payer.
Let's not forget, the Reps were allowed to cram a lot more down our throats with a lot less. They simply had a (Vice) President who was willing to do the cramming. Our current leader does apparently not have the stomach for that.
Agree on the 51 votes... but, was also Reed's call. Howevr, there would have been some blow-back on 51 and you have to understand reconcilliation. Not clear if they would have been able to push through everything in healthcare reform through a procedure primarily only used for budgetary issues. 51 would have been a risk that it might not have worked. They made the political calculation. Hard to second guess when you do not even know what exactly 51 could really be used for?
Repugs crammed a lot down the throats with a lot of democratic votes. democrats voted for the wars and the tax cuts.
...but Americans still want endless doctor visits, drugs, testing, etc. etc. and do not want to pay for it.
The endless testing is a requirement of the insurance companies to avoid malpractice suits.
As far as endless doctor visits...yeah...people get unlimited sick days and have nothing better to do with their free time except sitting in waiting rooms.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Liberal AND Proud,
sure part of the reason for all the testing is for malpractice, suggesting that that should be fixed as well, but the simple fact of the matter is Americans are spoiled with healthcare. They have been conditioned that they want everything and they want it now. You cannot want this and not pay for it. As far as I am concerned you cannot even start a debate on healthcare without talking about budgeting or say raising taxes. However, that would be suicide for any politcian in America. You will not get proper healhcare reform in this country until enough people can deal with these issues.
I don't disagree with those points.
We both understand that forcing Americans to pay for healthcare premiums (putting aside the Constitutionality of it for the moment) is defacto a tax.
Taxes are a necessary evil, I think we both agree on that. It's just that they've been demogogued to death.
My issue is simple. Budgets NEVER matter when it comes to bailing out big business, or war or any other "priority" as determined by the Congress. That has ALWAYS been the case, regardless of the party in the majority. Budgets only seem to matter on issues that strike at being good policy for ALL Americans, then HOLY SHIT...it's...WE'RE GONNA GO BROKE! We heard it all through the negotiation of the new deal, anytime unemployment is running out and anytime there is talk of vacation time for workers...etc.
I'm as big a fiscal conservative as anyone, but the fact is that after the last 30 years, I know that they indeed do not matter. The dollar will always be propped up. Interest rates will always be controlled. Particularly in this modern era where global war is bad for business.
So, I want to see those empty dollars put to where they can actually do some good. Big business always survives...no matter the circumstances. The same is not always true of people.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Not arguing about budgets per se or the size of the budget or military budget or bailing out big business or ??? The amount this country spends on the military (50% of the world's military spending for 5% of the population) is of course ridiculous and suggests a level of paranoia that is incomprehensible.
When I mention budgets in my comments far above and directly above I am talking about budgeting in say the concept of single payer. If you know how single payer works, you would know that the way americans think about healthcare would make it very difficult to adopt single payer. Single payer works because governments around the world every year put in their budgets how much they want to spend on healthcare in that year. Can be a lot or a little. whatever? Not arguing the amount. They then have a system that tries to only expend what is in the budget (although they often fail at meeting the budget, but at least it is there). The result is that in many cases healthcare is then rationed to meet the budgetary constraints, which I have no problem with. There is a check and balance. My point was in America the mentality is that we want unlimited access to healthcare. This likely means that a single payer system were healthcare is budgeted is not compatible with this unlimited access mentality. You have to change that mentality in this country before you can have true reform. As soon as you would say the healthcare would be in the government budget like all other countries do, say under a single payer system, Americans will complain and say that the govt is rationing care. That is political suicide, as Americans have come to expect unlimited healthcare. However, unlimited healthcare means big bills and frankly Americans never want to pay for it, whether that be through taxes or healthcare premiums. And yes insurance companies already ratio, but that is besides the point. Simply put we need to come up with a way to pay for the healthcare overkill that Americans have come accustom to expect.
There has been a range of opinions on this site. I am for full a national health system, one of the very few around to offer that opinion. If not the only one.
Utter bullshit. Obama got the precise bill that he wanted, which is a complete hand-over to the insurance companies with only the slightest crumbs for the common weal.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
Obama got the exact bill he wanted? What is your proof? i think he got the "precise" bill that was the most politically possible. Obama cannot vote in the Senate. he did not take out the public option. he did not take-out the medicare expansion. does Obama control Liberman? does he control all the Rebublicans that voted against it? Does he control the blue dogs?
If he expends political capital he gets a lot. Which is what you claimed to start.
His much ballyhooed speech from September set the bar precisely where it is at. Very low for the common weal.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
What exactly are you blaming Obama for? Pushing through a very very tough issue during the biggest economic collapse since the great depression.
Blaming him for your expectations of utopia. The reality is that Obama faced an unbelievable amount of headwinds and he got very little help from the people who voted for him.
He spent a hell of alot of political capital on this. In fact, likely spent all of his political capital.
What else could he have done? Easy to bitch and complain. He took a calculated risk that he would not push everyone down a particular path and force everyone to accept it. He prefered to let it evovle. Anyways how do you know exactly was going on behind the scenes. Hillary tried to ram through a particular reform and failed.
Perpetual War Machinery funding = $1 trillion per year.
He has increased it. 34,000 additional troops for Afghanistan, up to 56,000 additional private contractors.
Hand in glove operation of the FED and Treasury in funding the Bankster bailouts of upwards of $5 trillion dollars.
The five big banks, which have committed the most massive fraud in history are not investigated.
Instead they are 'lent' the money with their fraudulent toxic assets as collateral at zero percent from the FED and they turn around and buy Treasuries receiving 3.5 % and the taxpayers pays both ends of the operation.
The health care bill is chump change.
The principle is not. Handing over public resources in exchange for campaign loot.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
there was much broader support by even Republicans for issues you bring up... no where near the headwinds as we saw in healthcare.
The money comparison is not apples and oranges.
It is green.
A trillion a year for the war profiteers, corporate welfare at work.
Trillions for the Banksters, corporate welfare at work.
Force people to buy a defective product, for-profit health insurance under the force of law, corrupt corporatist governance at work.
If they are low enough income put them on Medicaid which will swell the rolls and increase the likelihood that providers will not take them.
Pay for it all with draconian cuts to Medicare, the one functional social program standing which will increase the likelihood down the road that providers will not take it, thus the double corporate prize of the collapse of social competition.
This is a completely corrupt exercise in corporatist governance.
THE WINGNUTS CAN CALL IT WHATEVER THEY LIKE, IT IS CORPORATISM.
Britain under the conservative Winston Churchill after the war, when Britain was nearly BANKRUPT, enacted their National Health. A full social system of health care.
IT TAKES A LEADER.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
“In the time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." George Orwell
Good luck.
As the leader of the Demoratic Party, yes, yes he does. Too bad he didn't feel like "leading."
The president cannot force blue dogs to vote only the way he wants them. This is not the Republican party. It is a much bigger tent.
is putting it mildly. No. We've been Scrooged by corporate interests and Tiny Tim goes to bed Christmas Eve with an empty belly.
including Scar are talking this thing up to be a boondoggle, something must be good in it because they've wanted it to fail from the start. Even McCain was smiling as he said to blow the bill up.
Anything passed can and will be fixed (such as adding the 55 yr Medicare) in years to come, gang! And some great progress came in the Senate bill, especially holding down administrative costs and profits of insurance companies. I'll guarantee you our new health care system cannot be as unfair as our working poor supporting the wealthy seniors, Social Security.
None of the public option proposals was worth a bucket of warm spit because gov't plans would have been prevented from competing. Economists know that exposing health care to its first ever dose of competition is the surest way to bring costs down and improve efficiency and service. That's what happened when we finally deregulated the phone company (remember Ma Bell), blocked the power of IBM, Xerox, Kodak, and more recently Microsoft. Imagine if we broke up the power of the AMA to limit the supply of physicians -- doctors would no longer earn far more than any other profession (and attract people not just interested in money and golf)!
If we direct our rage at going after Big Pharma to do some real research on vaccines and cancer drugs (toe fungus drugs don't count). No major drug company has lost money in half a century, yet they claim their 17-year monopoly patent protection is a reward for risk taking?? The U.S. still has the worst patent laws on the globe.
And what about hospitals? -- the most inefficiently run, disease breeding grounds ever devised. We must allow these archaic cost-plus death factories to be replaced by clinics and care facilities.
And then insurance companies can be replaced by the single payer extension of Medicare we all agree on. A public option is potentially the worst of both worlds, so in the end we will be glad to have it "compromised" away.
And the best thing is we'll be done with health care reform (for now) and can dedicate all our attention to addressing climate change, job losses, the crumbling cities and infrastructure, our education and technology gap, and the disappearing middle class.
and in the civil rights fight if that approach had been taken we'd probably still have "whites only" water fountains.
Yeah, we really dealt with that problem. Our cities and schools are more segregated than ever, blacks in the south earn half that of whites, we have one black senator and one governor, fewer and fewer blacks especially men are going to college and getting worse with the end of AA.
toward stopping the hemorrhage of our tax dollars into the endless pit of the MIC's murder/death/war crimes pit and to stop rendition and torture first.
Then maybe we'd have the funds we need for needed social programs/job creation/infrastructure work.
Oh, and our reputation/standing in the world improved.
Right now we are building up our military bases in Columbia and doing drone fly overs in Venezuela while Russia arms Venezuela to the teeth.
Oh well, it's okay. We can just hire more Blackwater goons to do the job for us.
Health care for the American people be damned.
We have some more innocent civilians and evil "socialist" governments to destroy.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Glad you have your priorities straight. Destruction of the planet ain't as important as police actions abroad. Spoken like a true economic virgin. Tax dollars don't matter. When there is 10% unemployment, actions to address global warming, rebuilding our cities and infrastructures, etc. are FREE!!! Only economists seem to know that money doesn't matter, especially when inflation and interest rates are at zero.
ARE DESTROYING THE PLANET!!!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
Tell that to your children and grandchildren. But that's just dull science stuff. Of course we need to get out of Afghanistan -- Duh! But don't get distracted from making a positive difference rather than just overturning W's evil doings. A climate treaty would spell the end to big oil's ability to fund terrorism faster than any sized army every could.
By Sara Flounders here
One economist says to another: this model works much better when I take the people out.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
It's always a shame to discover that you majored in the wrong subject and emerged with no analytical ability. Just because many economists don't choose to use their abilities for good doesn't mean that the tools of economics don't in fact hold most of our answers. Scientists developed nukes and sell out to Big Pharma -- but that doesn't mean that science is not the key to dealing with all our tech challenges!
I do not mean to cast a wide net of aspersion.
The question is: is economics a hard science? To me, the answer is no. It is a social science. For me that does not make less relevant.
Political economy as in Marx will come again.
Michael Hudson from 1971 on Paul Samuelson here
I detoured into engineering to start and while I apparently had the attitude, at least they told me so, I had no passion for it.
I am a musician, so except for the social I am always in a different depth.
As for science and our technical challenges, James Howard Kuntsler recounts a talk in front of silicon valley types about peak oil, their response:
To which he said something like:
He is not trained in the matters he writes of. He gives a good talk.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
A bill will pass. The Dems can not afford for it not to. But, we don't know exactly which will pass. The House bill is significantly better than the Senate, and even the Senate bill is being improved, marginally, due to public pressure. We must keep fighting for what we want. If we can't get a good bill, we must at least make this one as harmless as possible. Write, call, cut off your contributions. Don't stop fighting yet.
yeah yeah yeah...the bone that was thrown by Axelrod was that once the bill passes, it will go to the House and then the two bills will be reconciled.
It's the SAME DODGE. Pleeeeease left wing, support this bill...and it will be fixed later in reconciliation.
Now...they lied to you already when YOU, and you know who I'm talking to, supported the dropping of the Public Option for the so-called Medicare buy in. Then of course they pulled the rug out from under you again...and puleeease...Joe Lieberman was the messenger (as a lame duck independent he had nothing to lose politically)...and dropped the Medicare buy in and left you with this big bag of shit.
You REALLY gonna trust them again...or like most of the American public...are you REALLY that stupid?
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
in fact if they win back the House later next year, the only thing theyll do (perhaps) will be to repeal parts of this bill. they should reform the reform instead of repealing parts of it. but with them its about doing the opposite of the Dems never mind the consequences to the electorate. can any pol be trusted?
Even if the Republicans win the House they won't have much sway over the Bill one way or the other.
Anything the Dem Senators don't like will be killed there. Or Obama will veto it.
The best hope is to continue to increase the progressive influence in the House and do the best we can in the Senate. This goes for everything, including tweaking this Bill.
And a reminder that sometime by the end of the decade, we'll know how well this Bill is doing.
We've got 4 years before it comes on line anyway, plenty of time to fix (or destroy) it, depending on who is in power then.
This outcome proves beyond any reasonable doubt that America is totally owned by the Big Corporations.
As a European who has enjoyed universal health cover all his life, I feel very sorry for all you hard working Americans who are deliberately being declined cover and, as a consequence, sentenced to an early death by your ruthlessly greedy so-called Health care providers. And all in the name of their sacred profits. That's plain evil and disgusting.
If the Bill works as planned, the coverage rate in the US will come very close to that of European countries.
Our system remains inferior, of course, because of its patchwork financing system. Something only single payer will cure.
But this is America where we're always two steps slower than other countries, and do thinks only half way right.
But this is a better step than what we'd have gotten without it.
yeah yeah...take what we can get.
They'll slip it into us slooowly...so we can adjust to it...and even start to enjoy it.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Somebody better hire a lot more cops and build a lot more jails because I'm not alone. If you think for one second I'm going to be forced to pay these vultures for health "insurance", while still having to shell out for health "care", you're out of your mind.
I've now gone 10 years since deciding to pay my mortgage and forgo health insurance. That's what the American Dream has now come to. You'd have to lock me up before I give one penny to an insurance corporation to screw me on monthly premiums, co-pays, formularies, primary care physician approval, deductibles, and all the rest of the shell game whose only purpose is to pad their bottom line.
Health Care, the next bubble. Thanks Obama, thanks Dems.
So when you do get sick, do you stick the rest of us with the bill?
I am a Registered Nurse and I haven't had health insurance for over twenty years.
I do everything I can to stay healthy and on those rare occasions when I need to see a doctor I pay out of pocket.
This past summer I had the sore throat from hell and it happened to be a Saturday night when I realized I couldn't swallow. Tears streamed down my cheeks even with water.
I went to the E.R. in The Berkshires and the bill came to $500. I didn't have $500 and they said they'd bill me. I made arrangements to pay $25/mo. and I am paying it.
It may take me a long time to pay the bill, but with no interest and knowing I'm not having to bend over and take it from any for-profit health insurance corporation, I am HAPPY to write that check every month.
Once the mandate comes into play, I will NOT pay any private for-profit insurance corporation one penny. Hopefully by then there will be a class action lawsuit I can become a signatory to in order to avoid paying the fine.
I'd rather pay an attorney fee to avoid playing this rotten game they're handing us!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
OMG! You took action on behalf of yourself and didn't rely on the government to make things all better?
Why...why....what...huh... that's just too freakin' American and self-reliant to comprehend!
If we all dropped our insurance plan, the industry would DIE.
Just takes some guts and a plan to take care of yourself in time of need.
The Exchange will include the opportunity to enroll in the non-profit plan that is the same one used for Congress and run by the Office Of Personnel Management.
Post it please. I've seen no plan...just heresay.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
the "state" got involved, the people within the "united states" had affordable health care. Isn't it: "Time to Discharge the State from Our Health-Care System"? http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2490...
everybody, we are diluding ourselves with Obama. we think that he's gonna change or that the party is gonna change. The corporations run things. And if we started mass protests, martial law would be imposed and we would be locked up. I am not saying don't fight back but Obama is nothing more than KY to make this corporate takeover of america easier to take.
protesting with your wallet is the surest chance to influence business.
Stop buying the product and it will go away.
Why didn't the Snuggy folks go away? Millions plunked down $19.95 to get their useless product of the week.
When we stop paying, companies stop existing.
I know. Me beating dead horse on my keyboard again.
Did anyone listen to the Dem Senators speaking on the Senate floor in the two or three hours before the vote? Especially Mark Begich of Alaska.
They went "behind" the MSM obsession with the insurance companies to actually spell out many of the
items in the Bill that impact on the delivery system. And spelled out the rather long list of what would actual begin in 2010. Very impressive. Certainly enough to not call this Bill "terrible".
And one other Senator, I believe Harkin, talked extensively about what oversight the Exchange would have, and the question of insurance companies that suddenly raise premium prices.
Now, you might think it stinks if your sole goal is to eliminate the private insurance companies. Which I would like to see happen too, but realize it ain't gonna happen this time around. And refuse to hand a win to the Republicans and even more rabid corporationists of the Chamber of Commerce and Club For Growth by bad mouthing this Bill into 2010 elections.
Anyway, one thing I really hope happens: Once a final Bill is passed and signed into law, within 30-45 days the government should print up and send to every American household a clearly written comprehensive booklet (like Medicare does) listing and explaining what the Bill contains.
Simply put , it's just the same old shit . We were dreaming to think the big money and corporate lobbyists could be or would be defeated , "they own the place" Durbin said and he was not joking .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
If Obama didn't have so much on his plate, or the Congress so entangled...
The answer is plain and simple: meaningful campaign finance reform. Take the lobbying money out of campaigns and you take away the corporation's hold over politicians.
Republicans will protest because of the ridiculous "only in America" belief (thanks to a faulty Supreme Court decision 100 years ago) that corporations are "people", that corporations and money are "political free speech".
The answer is plain and simple (strong limits on spending in campaigns), but getting there would be
very very difficult.
In calmer times, perhaps doable. Not right now unfortunately. Unless, of course, we can actually get a real populist movement (progs + tea baggers) to make it so. Not holding my breath since tea baggers
have their strings pulled by the Republicans.
I'm with you, but let's do a reality check.
CorpAm will not let that happen.
We can close insurance companies though.
Sen Webb has been saying precisely the same thing for months, not just recently: Obama never put forward plan but instead left it to congressional committees.
When will government of the people, by the politicians, for the corporations perish from this Earth?
Not soon enough!
In his televised address to the American People...the infamous "You Lie" speech...Obama stated that the American People should have the same healthcare plan that their representatives have.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Check the Exchange. It'll be there.
Check what Exchange? Link please...or is that you Lieberman?
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
that they weren't going to put a bill together fearing the same attacks as happened with Clinton. It was a political calculation.
There was a GOP majority when Clinton tried this.
That is not the case now. The political calculation that is being done now is simple...suck off the healthcare industry and hopefully siphon the dollars away from the GOP.
This was never about healthcare. It was a political strategy exacted on the backs of the American People.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
with Clinton until the mid-terms.
The health care push was year 1. The GOP did not have a majority.
However, I do think that Floridot's point is well stated.
Clinton tried to spearhead health care refore with Hillary at the helm and was capped at the knees, paving way for the conservative triumph in 94. I'm pretty sure Obama's admin thought that if they took a hands-off approach and let Congress do the work, they'd have more success in passing something.
And it's equally clear that passing something, anything, no matter how mean or un-reform like would be counted as a victory to Rahm/Axelrod.
Capped at the knees by the AMA, insurance industry and big Pharma.
Those industries followed the lead of the GOP, and rewarded them with money to win the election.
The Clintons later sold out to big Pharma. Rahm Emanuel is now their lead guy in dealing with that industry.
They are directing this whole process trying to make a mad grab for as much insurance industry money as they can stuff in the DNC's pockets.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
And it's equally clear that passing something, anything, no matter how mean or un-reform like would be counted as a victory to Rahm/Axelrod.
Totally understood. The whole Presidency is riding on this now, so they have to pass SOMETHING.
That kind of legislation is NEVER good for the country.
I don't care about the Administration. Administrations come and go, it is about policy and the direction of the country.
I want this bill killed. Period. I believe that the entire health care system needs to be brought to collapse before any REAL reform will take place.
It is the only way we get progressive action in this country. It is how we acheived civil rights, the end of the Viet Nam War, creation of unions, unemployment benefits, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security...
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
how would you recommend bringing the health care system to total collapse?
By killing this legislation. Let premiums and cost rise and rise and rise.
When Americans can no longer afford to pay, they will cancel policies, flood emergency rooms with even more uncovered patients and perhaps even take to the streets.
This government only reacts when it is being mercilously pressured.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
we all just don't stop paying premiums now and start canceling policies en masse?
Are we as a collective people just as weak as our government?
It would seem so.
If the scenario is as you say and people can still "afford" to pay, then we are decades away from your view.
I personally have had enough of this bullshit and stopped my policy years ago.
The GOP didn't get their majority with Clinton until the mid-terms.
So why so shocked that a Democratic Congress sold us out again?
I hope history repeats itself. Obviously, the Dems didn't learn their lesson the first time.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Smells like right-wing gas to me.
85% of the Congressional Dems would have supported some kind of PO or Medicare Expansion. Probably 2/3 would at this time even support single payer.
But it's the recalcitrant ones who have the power to block the above. Especially in the Senate. That's reality.
But don't go knocking the whole caucus over 15%. Knock the system, but don't play into the hands of the GOP with this "sold us out Congress" line. Not unless you're an agent of the right, of course.
And I'll take 85% possibility of good things getting done - even incompletely - than I ever would relying on the 0% other party.
that "how many of us are going to sit home next election" does get pretty old, doesn't it?
I won't be sitting home. I'll go to the movies or dinner...if I'm really lucky I'll be gettin' fucked and enjoying it for once.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
As I said before...David Axelrod said on Meet the Press...the polls are WRONG on this issue. The Democrats are NOT paying attention to the polls. They are enacting this legislation in defiance of the will of the majority of the population.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
The only surprising thing here is our ability to pretend like this is news to us.
Howard Dean sounding much less "kill the Bill"....going so far as to bring up positive changes that have taken place in the last 48 hours via the Manager's amendment.
He's not waving the Great Bill flag, but he's doing what I'm telling people everywhere: pay attention to what's in the Bill and you'll see that it's definitely not deserving of all the hyperbolic bad-mouthing -
beloved of the right-wing - that we've seen.
There really is a fool born every day.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
Moments ago on MSNBC - Nora O'Donnell talking to a MSNBC reporter who's at the DC airport...
Nora: "There must be a lot of anger out there"
Reporter: "No, I've been hear all morning and can't say I've seen much anger. A lot of understandable
frustration, but most people realize this is beyond anyone's control..."
What! No ANGER! No throngs storming the barricades...what a news bummer!
Sometimes I do take solace in the fact that 90% of the public don't watch much cable news.
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