The Rachel Maddow Show: David Frum's False Equivalencies and Foolishness
Holy FSM, I love Rachel Maddow. And not in a little way; I mean pick-her-up-and-carry-her-on-my-shoulders kind of love. And I love her even more for the gracious way that she deals with neo-con former Bush speechwriter David Frum.
Frum, who unbelievably has the nerve to sit in judgment of anyone when his carefully crafted propaganda led us into an unnecessary war, employs the Republican tried and true method of creating false equivalencies to defend the indefensible tactics of the McCain campaign. And his target isn't the expected Barack Obama or even Bill Clinton, but Rachel Maddow herself.
That's right. Frum -- who by the way, has only a glancing relationship with facts -- has the bad manners in addition to flawed thought processes to tell Maddow that using snark and humor in her news show brings down the national dialogue just as much as McCain and Palin's race baiting and fear mongering.
FRUM: I think you were talking through much of the show about the matter of tone in our politics. And yet, I think we are seeing an intensification of some of the ugliness of tone that has been the feature of American politics for the past 8 years. I mean , the show, unfortunately, is itself an example of that problem, with its heavy sarcasm, and sneering and its disregard for a lot of the substantive issues that really are important. And I would hate to see Republicans go, probably into opposition, sustaining this terrible cycle of unseriousness about politics, about turning it into a spectator sport. The party is going to have some important rebuilding to do. It’s going to have to do that in an intelligent way and we’re all going to have to do better than we’ve been doing, including in the last forty minutes.
MADDOW: Do you think that my tone on this show is equivalent to people calling Barack Obama somebody who ‘pals around with terrorists,’ people yelling from the…people yelling from the audience at McCain/Palin rallies, kill him, off with his head, traitor, are you accusing me of an equivalence in tone?
FRUM: I don’t think that’s an important question. The question is, given the small plate of responsibility that you personally have, how do you manage that responsibility? The fact that other people fail in other ways is not an excuse for failing in your way.
Talk about your sneering tones. Patronize much, David? Listen, when you gain a moral compass -- something that apparently isn't held in high regard at the American Enterprise Institute where you hang your hat of late -- let's see you "be the change you want."
You want a more intelligent and grown up dialogue? You, the man who gave us "the Axis of Evil"? How about you employ just the littlest bit of intellectual honesty? How about acknowledging the very real damage to the national dialogue being done by playing to the basest bigotries by your party, a tactic that you carried in your own small plate of responsibility for years. We've gotten more truth from one episode of comedy shows like The Daily Show and satires like The Colbert Report than we have gotten in all the speeches and op-eds penned by you in the last eight years.
And that's no snark.
UPDATE: Since you asked...
First
I sat and watched this, mouth agape, and could not believe that Frum was nothing short of delusional and possibly psychotic. Although I wanted Rachel to suddenly go off on him, she held her own with grace and dignity. It was an amazing moment.
The question I wished she would have asked is: "I'm curious, but have you ever in the past eight years, publicly criticized anyone on FOX for their tone? Bill O'Reilly? Sean Hannity? Laura Ingraham? Or even, say, Rush Limbaugh? All those years of Republican rule, and you allow, or at the very least, condone, that type of discourse, yet now that it appears a Democrat will win the office of President, you complain about sarcasm and tone."
I honestly believe that many of the these people are indeed mentally ill. Bill Kristol? No doubt in my mind. The profound (and profane) dishonesty exhibited by Frum is pathological. Mental illness is an explanation as to how an otherwise intelligent human being can cling so forcefully to demonstrably false notions. The fact the we as a society accept pathological liars as "pundits" is a shame. It was really nice to watch a brilliant, dignified, amazing woman stand up to and engage a mealy-mouthed lying pig. And she's my age and from the next town over from where I live! OK, those are irrelevant facts, except that it's fun to somehow identify in some way with one of your heroes.
She is nothing short of amazing.
I take it that Mr. Frum is not use to conversing with intelligent women on his side of the political spectrum
Mr. Frum is a virgin.
Not any more he's not!
FRUM: I don’t think that’s an important question. The question is, given the small plate of responsibility that you personally have, how do you manage that responsibility? The fact that other people fail in other ways is not an excuse for failing in your way.
While this statement doesn't apply to Maddow, perhaps Frum would like to share it with Mc"theycallmeaterroristtoo"Cain
Rachel is intelligent, sharp and graceful.
Perhaps we can forgive Mr. Frum -- clearly, he seems to be suffering from some sort of emotional or possibly neurological problems. Are there any psychiatric professionals out there who might want to hazard a guess as to Mr. Frum's affliction? It has to be more than just Narcissistic Personality Disorder.
We have a saying here in Canada: The problem with David Frum is. he was born on third base, and he thinks he hit a triple.
Thats what they say about Bush
"You know, it was once said of the first George Bush that he was born on third base and thought he'd hit a triple. Well, with the 22 million new jobs and the budget surplus Bill Clinton left behind, George W. Bush came into office on third base, and then he stole second."
—Ohio Governor Ted Strickland in a speech at the Democratic National Convention in Denver, Colorado
He's just jealous that she is brilliant, attractive and isn't an MSM fembot.
She's had her own TV show for only several weeks now and her ratings are surpassing Olbermann's. It won't be long before she's the number one news show in Prime Time.
Frum tried to take her to the woodshed for being a "bad girl" and speaking truth to power with lipstick.
If you ever want to find me at 9pm during the week I'll be glued into MSNBC to hear what Rachel's take on the day's events are.
Who the F is listening to fat-lipped Frum anyhow?
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
It's all that hair dye- seeping into his brain
LOL!
Mr. Frum suffers from a complex psychopathology similar to that of the original Hannibal Lector, as portrayed by the brilliant Brian Cox in the Michael Mann film "Manhunter": "They call him a psychopath because they don't know what else to call him."
While probably not a strict psychopath, the patient Frum would indeed be afflicted with Narcissistic Personality Disorder if only he didn't hate himself with such ferocity. This hatred is projected onto unsuspecting victims--often women--whom he relishes in blindsiding in an attempt to compensate for a prepubescence compromised by a domineering female family figure.
The prognosis for the patient Frum is, unfortunately, dire. Should you encounter him it is recommended that you avoid shaking his hand or otherwise touching him. Even so, taking a shower post-encounter would be a wise preventative measure.
Pointing out the obvious riot inciting rhetoric is the same as actually spewing the rhetoric that actually incites the riot in Frum's GOPee mind ???
McBush/Palin vomitting terrorist garbage to inflame their base into possilbe action (to save their "loved" country from a terrorist)is nothing compared to Maddow showing the results of that rhetoric.. DUH !!!
Just as Maddow pulls the final string which unglues Frum, you can see his "spittle venom" amassing in the corners of his mouth. Maddow eviscerated this moron with the ease & prowess of a surgeon's scalpel excising a cancer.
I thought Rachel was gonna light his ass up, but she's a better person than me...I would have wanted to punch his condescending face!
Sounds like I'm at a McCain/Palin rally. Democrat or Republican, You're all full of yourselfs. The man had a perfectly valid point on reciprical negativity, and you're deaf to it because it came out of the mouth of the 'enemy'. This is a good site for video, but the comment sections are basically circle-jerks of cathartic venting and ego-masturbation. No one ever won a debate by 'punching' the other person's 'condesending face'. What would Obama have to say about your comments? Truly disgusting behavior.
Anyone who would use Paul Wofowitz as an example of being serious about an issue is just a joke. Wolfy is the one who said it would be "hard to believe that it would take more troops to secure Iraq than to liberate it" (!) Remember something called the Surge? This alone makes validity on Frum's part laughable.
Someone ought to get Frum on National Geographic. It's amazing that a spineless creature like this can sit upright.
Now I think I'll retire to some ego-masturbating.....
You're more than welcome to him.
Have fun with that!
McCain sent out Frum to push back against the heinous, reprehensible actions of the McCain campaign and Frum was made to look like a blabbering fool instead. I don't think we'll be seeing Frum on Maddow ever again - that goes for any other television program. The guy looked like an eviscerated moose!
Rachel is one class act. By the way she handled Frum, she just made him look the fool and tool he really is.
diamondmc
She's classy, smart, and articulate - I'm just damn happy that she's on our side!
Frum looked dispirited and just plain tired. Has he been paying the slightest attention to O'Reilly, Hannity, Limbaugh, Savage over the past 8 years? Is he serious? This is what they've got? It's Rachel's fault because of a show she's had for a month?
I had the same feeling while I watched Stephen Moore's clown act on Bill Maher last Friday. This is their best and brightest? Moore was ranting about ACORN and he didn't even know what the group was. Maxine gave him a smack down that was hilarious. She also laughed at him and remarked that she could simply not believe that he had a column in the Wall Street Journal. These guys are just pathetic.
As i recall Maxine Waters asked Moore what ACORN stood for (as he was smearing it). He said he did not know and she said, "Then stop talking about it!"
It seems to be a habit of the right to just make things up that they think sound good and spout them as Gospel. This is why we are where we are because all the Corporate Media is willing to do is quote them and yet i have not seen or heard of one member of ACORN being interviewed or one explanation about what ACORN is or does.
A terrorist group it is NOT!
I wrote to Maher's show & pleaded with them not to ever have Steve Moore on again. He offered nothing to the conversation but empty, tired Repug rhetoric that is meaningless & frankly just lies.
It's been said before but that lady's got clas and wit to boot. She just totally skewers Frum at the end there.
Oops, I meant CLASS!
Anyone else notice Rachael's voice, speaking cadence and tone sounds just like a higher pitched Olbermann's? I wonder if they are the same person? Who is who's alter-ego?
Think you might be alone on that one Harry.
Listen without watching, her voice sounds like a higher pitched Olbermann's.
The rising pitch of one's voice means that person is experiencing incredulity. When reality repeatedly conflicts with David Frum's statements, that breeds incredulity. When someone LIES to your face, you'll become incredulous unless you're a Repugnantcan - then you'll merely considered yourself informed.
Totally different approach!
Rachel is the cheerful warrior, and Olberman the dark prince!
They are on the same side on the issue. Olberman shake the finger as a school teacher in a strict Catholic school!
Rachel much softer and cheerfully dissect your brain into putty!
I was puttering around yesterday, half listening to the show when I heard her introduce David Frum. I was completely stunned by the idea of Rachel and David having a conversation and it immediately drew me in.
That said I was appalled by his "shoot the messenger" attack right out of the gate. She handled it with such professional mastery. It is a completely false equivalency to somehow suggest that creating an environment where politicians are mocked for their foolishness is somehow equal to creating an environment where people think it is justified to call Obama unpatriotic, a terrorist, or worse to suggest some kind of vigilante recourse.
Public humiliation is a powerful tool. Inciting violence is a crime.
She really makes the stupidity of his statements very stark doesn't she? And she brings it all back to him even though he spends all his time trying to attack her.
I enjoy the way she makes him squirm by bringing up facts like the Keating five and other of mclame's many lies and flip flops.
Considering he's a former dumbya speech writer I think he did well not to fall off his chair or drool.
If he could voice his opinion, Tim Russert would weigh in for Rachel to take over MEET THE PRESS.
Wow! Calm, direct, concise.
God, I love that woman. She is professional, smart, quick, and uber-intelligent.
Sorry: FSM. Is that "Free Speech Movement"? "Flying Spaghetti Monsters"?
Rachel was good in the clip.
Connie serves Bob Flying Spaghetti Monster for dinner, with sone crispy breadsticks, a tossed Italian salad, some nice spumone with chilled Barbaresco to wash it down with.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Rachel, you rock.
Corruption favors the wealthy.
Wonderful, professional, calm while proving her point. I'm very impressed.
Frum is an idiotic ass - now that his party's boat is sinking, he is the rat trying to save his own miserable self by trying to portray himself as the lone voice of pure reason and that everyone else is morally fucked up.
Incredible - what a pompous dickhead.
I envy anyone who can handle a situation the way she handled that one. Total class act!
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
but David Frum is an ass.
We need more people like this in the world.
She floats like a Butterfly and stings like a Bee!
Dr. Rachel ROCKS...
Dr.Maddow: "Next" Don't change a thing Rachel. I watched this Frum fool try diversion,talk over and the same mindless jabber and Rachel just waited and let him make a fool of himself. Republicans can't stand to be laughed at...grrrrrr. Humor takes away from FEAR! Nice work 'Doc'....lol.
Brain damage... I put my money on organic provable with tests, brain damage... Anyone so disconnected from the reality going on all around them this far down the line has to have some sort of mental disorder...
Sounds like the shoe fits this Frum moron to me...JD
Watching Frum I am reminded that my new favorite phrase is "douche nozzle". I don't know why that would come to mind at just that moment but I thought it was worth sharing.
Evangelically yours (in a completely heterosexual way)
Super J
Super Jesus,
I can't think of a more appropriate term than "douch nozzle". Breaking open the thesaurus; but can't find a proper equivalent. David "DOUCHNOZZLE" Frum it is...
That is how I use it when I am in mixed company.
I used to met David Frum once a year at the annual CBC christmas party where my father and his mother worked. He was a pompous obnoxious jackass as a child and not much has changed. Interestingly his mother still has saintlike status as a liberal journalist with some at the CBC - which is very far from the truth.
Fascinating how he now identifies himself as wholly american and a republican. I am sure the majority of Canadians would be glad if he renounced all connections to Canada and joined his pal Conrad. There is something very wrong with the boy.
I have to give it Rachel for controlling herself while interviewing that smarmy little worm. Hate to admit it, but I was screaming obsceneties at Frum during his half-hearted attempt to appear genteel!! What a joke. This is from the man who degraded our national discourse into a series of bad slogans and cheap rhetoric: Fight them over there, so we don't have to fight them here! Stay the course! They hate us because of our freedoms! Frum, if you want to have an intelligent conversation concerning YOUR President's failed policies, don't try and be the wounded flower because satirists are able to point out the ridiculous nature of your party's judgement and ability to govern. Thank you Rachel for showing the wisdom and temperment to expose his hypocrisy. As for me, I had to restrain myself from throwing a brick at my television when Frum was trying to defend Wolfowitz!! !@^#% &%$#!@*
One has to admire the audacity of Frum to make his case in the light of the fact his cherished Republicans have made a science of character assassination, race baiting and outright lies. Now he thinks it's time to clean up politics? Cast the lumber yard out of your own eye first you bloated wad of nonsense.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
Mr. Bombastic friendly Frumtastic.
Jeebus, what a condescending shitheel.
I trust he's going to take his "Let's Tone Down the Rhetoric Tour" right to Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck, Dobbs and Savage and day now.
-GSD
This gave me the chills. My alcoholic then-wife did this constantly: "We're not talking about the huge, honking ways in which I have completely fucked up both of our lives; we're talking about a perceived slight on your part! We're not going to talk about my huge, looming, ongoing problems; we're going to talk about piddly crap! Because I said so, that's why! Absolutely no examination of my conduct whatsoever, do you understand!??!?!"
She used different words, although actually not too different.
Again...if only I could have reached to my teevee screen...Frum would have received several of my patented "Face Punchins!"
Doesn't Frum remind you of those punk kids in elementary school that would annoy, irritate, and attempt to instigate a fight because somehow, he thought he was insulated from any retaliation. ( My daddy is someone important!) They would usually get away with it, but everyone loved it when that one kid would have enough and beat the crap out of them...
Actually, I think it was his daddy-in-law who was somewhat important - owner or editor or something of the newspapaper in Toronto. Davey is just a neo-con wannabee - came south to go to school and started hanging around with the crew at Yale and Harvard. Now he hangs with Richard Perle and his buds at AEI.
In my book, anyone who wrote speeches for GWB must be an addle-brained idiot, and in this case, Frum is also an asshole. I think Rachel did quite well - but I was screaming swear words at him while I tired to reach through the sceeen and strangle his pasty white neck....
"Egotism is the anesthetic that dulls the pain of Stupidity" - Frank Leahy
I saw him not long ago on Bill Maher where he was also a complete moron talking over the other guests, attempting to make points without any factual basis and stating conclusions born from lies and fiction. He was laughed at and marginalized by Maher and the panel. Last night was a kind of new level for arrogance, rudeness and non-relevant analogies. He sure has delusions of adequacy, but he looks like a fool.
Rachel handled that segment with grace and dignity.
She did not interrupt him while he was spewing his talking points, she did not talk over him. She just sat back and let him dig himself deeper and deeper.
Rachel is truly a professional....
#I mean pick-her-up-and-carry-her-on-my-shoulders kind of love!"
david fuckmouth is one of the most disgusting
assholes i have ever heard. he eats and spews
shit. an opinion is fine, but to continually
lie is deplorable. the planet would be better
off if he were never born.
I think I would agree with Frum if he goes on with Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, and thier ilk and present the same argument.
If you care about global warming, you care about saving the economy, and you care about people, all these topics discussed in the media and here are a waste of time.
We have technology today to produce abundant, clean, renewable energy, that could sustain the world forever. As little as 1% of the military budget could give us geothermal energy for the US.
We should all be DEMANDING this, instead of fighting about stupid stuff that won't help any one.
FREE Energy = Freedom
I too was watching it happen and even told my wife "shush" when she started to talk about something else (and if you knew my wife you'd KNOW I don't do THAT too often). I agree with all the above posts, but need to re-emphasize how rachel handled the situation with grace and total class....you could tell she was dumbfounded for a moment at the direction of his "attack"....but then, so weren't we all!
And when the segment was over she moved right along to the next without a hitch....what a true professional!
Told the wife a few weeks ago when pondering the question about Presidential politics "who would you like to sit and drink a beer with?"....my answer then and now is without a doubt...Rachel Maddow......
what a breath of fresh air......THANKS RACHEL!!
What I find interesting is that all of a sudden the neocons are so into "debating the issues" instead of the slime attacks. Is it possible that they once again want to frame any future debates even though they will be deep into minority party land? Oh sure, NOW they want everybody to play nice despite the fact that for the last 20 years they've been leading the poo slinging charge.
As to Nicole's other point, I too wouldn't mind having Dr. Rachel on my shoulders for awhile...
David's mother Barbara was a well-respected journalist in Canada for many years (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Frum)- her famous question to a deposed African Dictator, "Are you bitter?" still appeals to me as one of the most ironic moments in my relationship with the media.
What must forever irk Mr. Frum is knowing that his mother's career in journalism was directly underwritten by the Canadian taxpayer, and that she was a creature of the "socialist" system.
And, as for Barbara, she'd be heartbroken if she knew the causes her son has chosen to espouse.
He still gets dragged out on CBC as some kind of Conservative wise elder ---- unreal ... I hope his career takes the form of a little greasy mushroom cloud real soon.
Frum will do alright.
The market for enraged conservative pundits is going to be very big over the next few years - it won't take them long to adjust to their new role as the disloyal opposition.
Too true ...
Maybe they should get their own channel! /snark
Barbara was hardly a socialist saint - even though some CBCers portray her in that light. if you want to be amused watch her head explode when Rae got in Ontario. Her husband was a right wing finance type. And yes like all conservatives she had no problem feeding from the government teat when it served her purposes.
http://frum.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NWFjMz...
Awww. Poor wittle Fwum...
Bitchin 'cause ya got yer ass handed to ya huh?
Sucks to be you Mr. Frum.
May as well post it since it speaks volumes:
Will other neocons have the nerve to come on Dr. Maddow's show? How will they deal with someone that actually gives them enough rope to hang themselves? They remind me of annoying, yapping, little dogs that suddenly come to the end of their leash and wonder "what the hell happened?"
Actually he reminded me of a yappy little dog raring to take on the German Sheppard in front of him and suddenly realizing his leash broke and it's time to put his teeth where his bark was. Time for a reappraisal of the strategic situation.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
You know things are desperate for the GOP gasbags when they begin using quotes from Mahatma Gandhi. Truly a despicable display.
Rachel Maddow should have been schooled on proper interviewing by O'Reilly by demanding that Mr Frum to just SHUT UP and take his mic.
God, do I hate these assholes. This arrogant son of a bitch has been wrong for eight fucking miserable years and yet he has the audacity to show up in public as if his failed ideas should be listened to and respected.
That was disgusting. Interesting that the GOP has moved on from Denial to anger - and the all powerful 'I know you are but what am I' being used to frame discourse? What a complete farce
Mister I-invinted-the-Axis-of-Evil wants to raise the tone of discourse? My irony meter just broke.
Backfired on him and elevated Rachel Maddow while making him look like a petty child.
He won't return to her show.
Why every pundit on the left can't (or won't) control the dialogue like Rachel is a mystery and a shame.
The facts are on our side! How can we lose?
Mike...Mike...Facts have a "liberal bias"...didn't you get the memo?
;)
The party of hate, fear, division, willie horton, swiftboat, the southern strategy, gay bashing, immigrant bashing, black bashing, Dick Cheney and Karl Rove wants to take the high road? Since when? Not in the last 40 years or so that's for sure!
That's just like Dumb Sarah telling Biden we should not look behind.
Of course they don't want to look behind. THEY the GOP (all the CONservatives, RepubliCONs, and neoCONs) are at fault for the ECONOMIC MESS and destruction of our democratic values.
How convenient that they don't want us to look at their CRIMES.
They are all traitors to our US Constitution and Democratic values. They belong in jail!
David Frum, a pundit with clear conservative bias all judgmental about a pundit with a mild liberal bias. UN-FRIGGIN-believable. Why does this guy have ANY CREDIBILITY in the MSM? Can someone explain that to me? A speech writer?!?!!?!?!? Does he have any relevance?
The fact that the leader of the politics of sneer, the guy that worked for Bush and the sore winner party also known as the GOP would turn the question around on Rachel Maddow is beyond the pale.
What a slimy little worm.
After years and years of throwing mud, using talking points, calling the opponents traitors, unAmerican, gloating over stolen elections, and unbelievable amount of other horrid, divisive comments from the right side of the aisle, NOW Frum wants us to play nice "for the sake of the country".
He's just one more evil, lying slug from the GOP who should be in the Hague.
Love this woman. Rachel took Frumpy apart at the seams. Yea, get Wolfowitz on the show. Then arrest the SOB on the spot for murder and war crimes.
You'd think Rachel was on a local cable access show the way the 'world-weary' Mr. Frum talked. Rachel Maddow gets lots of good reviews for being smart, factual, and funny. Is there anybody like that on the wingers side? No, so lets make fun of her and maybe start the process of tearing her down. She tells the truth and that has to scare the hell out of people like Frum. Look for the right to try and destroy her. At some point, she's going to need our support and I will gladly give it.
I absolutely love the way Rachel handles herself in these situations. Her humanity and empathy come shining through as well as her poise and intelligence. Her response to Frum was unlike that of any talking head that I have seen in recent times. Detailed, considerate, reasonable. She seriously solicited his POV and respectfully countered him where she disagreed.
Thank you MSNBC for giving her a show.
Rachel Maddow is in a class by herself. Really. In response to clear baiting and insults from David Frum,(who is very good at what he does) Rachel keeps turning the conversation back to his assertions and dismantles them piece by piece. I could see a little frustration on Frum's part, try as he might to conceal it with a condescending smile.
Everyone knows David Frum is a a douche bag, and a Criminal.
He has no ground in reality...
And ..
I have loved Rachel Maddow for years... Do not get in between our love!
Hey, isn't that an ad over there in the column featuring our current President sitting on a toilet?!?
Sorry, I'm wandering from the officially sanctioned meme: Only conservatives are capable of nastiness. All liberal nastiness is justifiable because it is in service of the greater good as defined by the only philosophy truly capable of understanding the big picture and protecting the little people from themselves-- liberalism.
Remember this:
- when a liberal hangs President Bush in effigy at an event, it is their superior intellectual capacity being displayed-- please recognize it as such, and have gratitude that they've decided to share their gift with you;
-when a conservative says Obama is a traitor at an event, it is their base primitive instincts breaking through, and we must all be alarmed, because no one knows where it may lead next, but cannibalism is a pretty safe bet.
We have minimal control over the ads. Trust me, there have been a few that have cycled through I'd like to not have on our site.
Can you please back up your statement with a link proving that some liberal hung an effigy of Bush at an event and we cheered?
I promise you, as I have basically scheduled every post that has appeared on this site for the last two and a half years that you are -- with all due respect -- full of shit.
We've called out Democrats for demagoguery too. And your strawman of cannibalism shows how indefensible the race baiting is. No one suggested anything other than naked displays of bigotry and hatred are unacceptable in the 21st century. We fear the snowballing of violence, not culinary experimentation.
Please, like Frum, try employing a little intellectual honesty next time.
I have no problem sitting back and watching the neo-con crowd metaphorically eating their own though.
I see slides of Josh Brolin as W at his desk in the Oval Office.
Was that a Freudian slip of yours?
Oh you snarkisist, you.
I've seen clips of Bush being burned in effigy from abroad, but not in the States.
I think that you might be mistaken.
Bush is roundly hated by many because of what he DID - the decision to invade Iraq cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. Support it or oppose it, the war in Iraq was a Bush production - so, if in fact Bush IS burnt in effigy anywhere, it would be a reaction to what he has DONE.
The hatred expressed for Obama is not based on anything that he has done, but fear of what he might do. There is a qualitative difference between the two.
On the one hand, there is a clear reason why many would feel angry with Bush: his record. How is this in any way equivalent to a virulent hatred of Obama, whose record does NOT include responsibility for the deaths of multitudes?
I could not have asked for a better comment to confirm my point. Kudos to you.
...because there's just no way that you're actually this stupid.
your whole narrative is false; in any heated ideological quarrel, human nature will bring out the worst in either side, and your suggesting that leftists are somehow alone when they justify indulging in reprehensible behavior for a cause would make me think you were naive if it weren't already clear that you're just here to stir shit.
you've basically just taken a universal human foible, belief that somehow one's own bad actions are justifiable, and suggested that it wasn't universal, but rather only found in people who disagree with you politically.
blunt, pedantic assholes like you and me will never have the class of someone like ms. maddow, unfortunately.
you've sadly, wildly missed my point. But we'll give you some points for insults, OK?
I love that woman! If not for my advance years I would have her babies.
LOVE Rachel!!! I am hooked. On the occassional commentary on the radio show Marketplace Frum isn't too bad, actually speaks in a relatively nonpartisan way which is always surprising since he was a Dubya flunky. Here he is completely on the wrong track and towing the party line.
In another clip from the same show Rachel noted McCain and Palin visting red states to defend. The graphic showed Palin and a big arrow to a red colored ILLINOIS...labeled IN. Ooops. We're next door but not the same.....Maybe Rachel's staff needs a quick geography lesson.
Dear Friend,
John McCain and Sarah Palin have stopped talking about the issues, and have instead launched a strategy relying on fear-mongering, racial divisions, and hate. The result is McCain/Palin supporters saying "kill him!" "terrorist!" "traitor," and more, at rallies, with the McCain campaign playing dumb in response.It's outrageous and it must stop.
Together, we can show that Americans of all races won't stand for this.
I've signed onto ColorofChange's open-letter calling out McCain and Palin. ColorOfChange.org will publish it this week, and as they've shown in the past, when enough of us stand together, we can force the mainstream media to amplify our message. Will you join us?
http://www.colorofchange.org/united/?id=1683-...
McCain-Palin rallies have started to look more like mob scenes than political events. The candidates keep asking "who is the real Barack Obama?" (a question that also kicks off almost every McCain television ad).In response, supporters have yelled "terrorist!" and "traitor!" And the venom goes beyond Obama--one McCain/Palin supporter shouted a racial epithet at a Black member of a news crew, saying "sit down, boy."
McCain and Palin are going down a dangerous path. Watching some of their supporters being interviewed shows the kind of fear their campaign is stoking and exploiting.McCain and Palin are clearly in the driver's seat. They've personally made it a point to use "terrorist" and "Obama" in the same sentence; they have surrogates repeatedly refer to him by his middle-name;and they keep pushing the discredited guilt-by-association smears that have long been debunked.
All of it plays on the much more sinister rumors in anonymous smear emails which claim Obama is Muslim, anti-American, and is somehow connected with terrorists. This strategy is powerful because Obama is Black, and it's designed to make Obama's race a disadvantage without appearing overtly racist.
As Americans of all stripes, we've seen how Barack Obama's historic candidacy has moved our friends and family to have a more honest conversation about race in this country. It's inspired a lot of people to step out of their comfort zone and confront racism in their own communities, with their friends, neighbors and families.
In the final days of this campaign, we can't let a desperate John McCain and Sarah Palin drag us down. If enough of us act, we can create a powerful story in the media about Black people and our allies of all races standing together against race-baiting and fear-mongering coming from the McCain/Palin campaign. But it will take a lot of us speaking in unison.
Will you sign an open letter to McCain and Palin, telling them who you are and why you won't let them move our country backward? ColorofChange.org will publish the letter and make sure John McCain is forced to respond.
http://www.colorofchange.org/united/?id=1683-...
Thanks.
Sue me!
It's a damn good cause though.
I give props to RACHEL -I DO NOT have the PATIENCE to "talk" to STRAIGHTUP ASSHOLES POSING AS CONSERVATIVES-the definition of the word -conservative- has lost its TRUE MEANING!!!
I can't help but shake my head whenever a loathsome little reptilloid like Frum indulges in such a truly heroic example of transferance. "Degrading the debate"..."managing a responsibility"...? That's rich coming from a person who befouls everything he touches or gives his attention.
He should be profoundly grateful that Maddow didn't burst out laughing in his face.
Krum has so thoroughly corrupted his own mind that he qualifies as being insane. A lifetime of willful and practiced dishonesty can only estrange a person from reality.
I mean isn't MSNBC just as bad as Fox Noise. It's basically the same kind of commentary from the left instead of the right.
We need REAL change in this country. And not Ron Paul change, or Ralph Nader change.
We need to change the whole system by which we are fed our information. Look, I loathe Frum, but he brings up an interesting point. We need to talk about issues in more of a substantive way. Let's try and figure this stuff out.
But sadly no, we need bright colors and funny jokes in order to sit there and pay attention.
Obama 08'.......because I guess it's "change"
So, you, like Frum, can with a straight face compare:
Maddow to O'Reilly
Olbermann to Hannity
Joe Scarborough to Shep Smith (oh wait... )
David Gregory to Brit Hume
Chris Matthews to John Gibson
Really?
That's some strong model airplane glue you are huffing, "my friend".
A few things...
MSNBC tends to be TRUTHFUL, not spewing lies, half-truths and propaganda.
Frum, and all the neoCON fascist propagandists can kiss my ass.
BUT! Yes! We do need to talk about issues in a substantive way. More talking is a good and necessary thing.
That being said, there is ALSO a place for humor, sarcasm, ridicule, satire and irony when pointing out the oppositions weaknesses and failings.
Because when they have SO much to to be ridiculed for, it's ones patriotic duty to call them on their bullshit.
And one more thing...Fox News has been ridiculing (at best) those who oppose them for years.
And you comparing them to MSNBC is akin to Frum attempting to draw equivalencies to Rachel and the fucktards yelling scary shit at the MCFlailin rallies.
It just don't hold water.
The only solution is a citizen-funded (read "federally") public broadcasting service like the CBC in Canada or the BBC in the U.K. (the benchmark for objective reporting -- for now) which has oversight by a panel of ELECTED citizens to ensure the aspiring to (it's all we primates can do!) some unambiguous measure of objectivity and disinterest. It ain't perfect but the adolescent, irresponsible drek that has been foisted on the citizenry since the deregulation of the broadcasting licensing board is beyond tabloid-level hysteria. In many cases, it is both psychotic (significantly dissociated from reality) and criminal.
I love how calm and professional, and downright convivial Rachel is when faced with a snarky nasty guest. It's so refreshing in this time of bloviation and Hannitization, to see an intelligent person delineating between the personal attack and the argument at hand without losing any of her eloquence and demeanor.
Frum sulks because his team is losing or has already lost. He and his think tankers over at the American Enterprise Institute used to project "intellectual superiority" when they launched their pre-emptive war campaigns. With that, they hijacked the Bush Admin's world view. Now that NONE of that is working, and even Reagomics is exposed as a myth, the neocon job is folding like a cheap suit and they are revealed as the sulking children they have always been. In the segment prior to Frum's, Maddow was actually being kind to only MOCK Wolfowitz. I mean, she have done a scathing expose of Wolfie as war criminal, but she wisely sees him for what he is - a foolish little chicken hawk with nothing serious to offer.
I am Canadian living in America and because I love America's premise and her promise. I love my homeland of Canada too but I'm ashamed of fellow Canadians like Conrad Black and that sulky Frum boy who is a disgrace to his mother, the Canadian journalism icon Barbara.
But I come not to bury Frum, he's irrelevant now. I come to praise Dr. Rachel Maddow, who always stays cool and smart and, just as Obama does, resists the bait to lower herself to the cheap discourse that often passes for political discussion on cable.
Excellent post.
Shorter Frum: Please don't reveal our winning techniques.
I disagree. Shorter Frum is as follows:
Now that you guys will control the House, Senate and Presidency, please do not treat us the way we treated you.
People like Frum know they have behaved like bullies and babies when they were in control, and they're now preemptively crying uncle. But instead of honestly begging for mercy, they're invoking principles of fair play in which they do not really believe.
These people have killed hundreds of thousands of people around the world, shredded the Constitution, and sent our economy plummeting to depths from which it will not recover for a long time. They are rightfully earning a resounding defeat in November, and they should relegated to a kind of penalty box for the next four years at least. They can endure snide comments and sarcasm. That's far less than they deserve. The neo-cons and Busheviks (and John McCain) should not be allowed to play with the other politico kids, while we clean up their mess.
My hat's off to Rachel Maddow. She's a class act like no other. I would not have been as gracious to the likes of David Frum.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
You can tell from Frum's condescending attitude, and that shitty smirk he can't stand the very big brained Rachel Maddow. The Repukes hate it when minorities don't "remember their place".
Really chaps their hides when someone like a woman, or *GASP* a person of color speaks TO them and outsmarts them at their own game.
Ah, Mr. Frum?
Mr. Warmonger-helper?
You are not allowed to quote Ghandi.
Thanks Rachel. I learned something today from you. You have the most diplomatic style, I want to be like you!!!! Keep up the good work on these Repubs....
Man, Frum just had his ASS handed to him at the end (and I'm not someone who uses that phrase lightly). You know that he knows he's just had his ass kicked by his facial expression and tone at the close of the excerpt.
Way to go Rachel!!! Call me if you ever decide to go bi!! LOL
Seriously though, she's my heroine!
This is how the spoiled fat kid in the playground acts after any kids who would have sided with him have gone home ...
Gandhi!??!?! from this greasy war criminal?
Thank you Rae! ... Thats POISE!
Burning Effigies? New
Tue, 10/14/2008 - 10:18 — That Mick Piobr
I've seen clips of Bush being burned in effigy from abroad...
I think that you might be mistaken.
Then they should've taken away that broad's Lady Bic.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
What has the left done to earn such rabid hatred?
It has been the pols on the right and their pundits who have been sticking it to my country and it's people.
There are people like me, who have lost their disability pensions; I was seriously injured and crippled as a firefighter.
There are people who have been turned out of their homes.
There are people who have lost their careers.
There are people who have lost their sons, daughters, fathers, mothers,brothers, sisters in the War for Oil.
The list of people who have been seriously injured or killed by Right Wing politics and policies goes on and on.
All and all. I think that we have been very civil after having our lives torn asunder by these arrogant idiots.
And there is no equivalent on the Left to that sordid list.
First she takes on some executive responsibility with her network in the latter years of the Obama administration....
Then in 2014 she shows up in Iowa... and is the only person there who REALLY knows how to debate.
Maddow/Richardson '16!!!
It was stunning, watching one of a team of rabid war-mongers and relentless hate-peddlers use convenient equivalencies before the erudite and refined (and might I add, truly attractive and a treasure to womanhood) Rachel Maddow.
These merchants of theft, violence, con-games and (let us not mix words here) major war crimes against humanity- now play this despicable pretense-game of civility of discourse! This is sickening beyond imagination.
It is dreadfully tragic enough that this band of smug and heartless criminals that have caused the merciless deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocent human beings, and along the way, peddled racism, sexism, classism, "have-more" arrogance, religious intolerance, disregard for Constitutional government, trashing of international law, denigrating the U.N. and desecrating concepts of peace and diplomacy-
it is tragic enough that these violent war criminals will never (I assume a 100% certainty) face an international tribunal for their crimes. After all, such tribunals are only for the weak and impoverished, and this is proven time and again. Moreover, in the American duopoly, the likes of Nancy Pelosi will never even hold these mega-criminals accountable for their colossal crimes (by far greater than those of ordinary murderers and serial killers).
However, the truly mind-numbing irony is that when these cornered rats sense that their crime-spree might be close to the end point- they suddenly turn highly non-violent, and talk about dialogue, civility, the tone of politics, and the like. It is unbelievable! This inherently crooked "speech-writer" even quotes Mahatma Gandhi (who I am convinced they deride with glee in their KKK-style gatherings) to make his point about peace and civility.
To all decent and upright human beings- the greatest words of caution against these cornered rats from the pirate-ship of violence, racial supremacy and incurable bigotry is to never, ever, soften your resistance to these chameleons. They simply prey upon simply human decency and ethics when it becomes absolutely necessary- all the while biding their time to wreak havoc upon civilization and culture at the earliest opportunity.
These criminals and their enablers must be resisted, exposed and humiliated until true decency and civility, humanity and intellectual pursuits across world cultures can truly flourish. DO NOT, EVER, GO SOFT ON BIGOTS AND WAR-MONGERS.
Rachel- I greatly admire your refined yet determined rejection of this supreme hypocrite. Keep up the fight and never let up.
this man is the exact reason why keith olbermann does not have people,
like this tool, on his show--why give people like him a platform to
spew his repuglican agenda of hate & lies-
and why wouldn't you? she's fantastic!
and why wouldn't you? she's fantastic!
I don't get to watch Rachel's show ENOUGH, obviously. But how brilliant she is. She handles a situation that would have most show host's (I started to say, "guys", but I won't go there), frothing and sputtering, and she handles it calmly, intelligently, and incisively. I think I am in love.
I saw her first!
I think that David Frum is equivalent of a tag-end of a truly nasty shit one is trying to take, where it's too much to want to include in the wiping yet it simply won't drop off no matter how much shaking and waggling back and forth one does.
On a more positive note, despite her preferences in this regard, I want in the worst way to bear Rachel Maddow's children.
I used to hang on Rachel's every word when she was on Air America Radio and I knew then she was bound for greatness, but holy M*********in Shit!! She takes the high road like no other and does it with the quiet confidence of righteousness. I too love this woman and it ain't in that way that needs reciprocation.
I'm glad I'm on her side!!!!!
I think Frum was attempting to do what Jon Stewart did on CrossFire to Rachel Maddow.
"We have minimal control over the ads. Trust me, there have been a few that have cycled through I'd like to not have on our site."
But we gotta eat, ya know?
"Can you please back up your statement with a link proving that some liberal hung an effigy of Bush at an event and we cheered?"
I would. But I didn't say that. I simply referred to a "liberal hanging Bush in effigy," I never said you cheered. I have some of those photos-- I'm sure you've seen them-- Bush dressed up as Hitler, Bush hanging from a noose, signs calling for Bush's death. Really-- you don't think they exist? Where have you been for the past 8 years?
As for whether or not you cheered, only you know that.
"I promise you, as I have basically scheduled every post that has appeared on this site for the last two and a half years that you are -- with all due respect -- full of shit."
Um, I don't think you read my comment very carefully, Nicole.
"We've called out Democrats for demagoguery too. And your strawman of cannibalism shows how indefensible the race baiting is. No one suggested anything other than naked displays of bigotry and hatred are unacceptable in the 21st century. We fear the snowballing of violence, not culinary experimentation."
Even you know I was joking about cannibalism, Nicole. But since you fear the "snowballing of violence," did you fear that over the past 8 years? Or just now that Obama's the target of it?
I simply referred to a "liberal hanging Bush in effigy," I never said you cheered. I have some of those photos-- I'm sure you've seen them-- Bush dressed up as Hitler, Bush hanging from a noose, signs calling for Bush's death.
We have consistently decried calls of violence on this site, no matter which side of the aisle it came from. We do not allow advocations of violence towards anyone here. Nor do we allow hate speech to stand. So don't sit there and call up some false equivalence that WE (because we are not responsible for the entire rest of the world, so when you say "you" the assumption is that you mean this site) cheer or condone effigies or any other calls of violence.
But since you fear the "snowballing of violence," did you fear that over the past 8 years? Or just now that Obama's the target of it?
Yes. But honestly, even though Bush's actions have justifiably put him in the same corner as a war monger and human rights violator, I have heard no public official of any party whipping up crowds to acts of violence in the last eight years. Not one. In fact, I've seen Democrats bend over backwards to capitulate to his crimes, much to my disgust.
I HAVE heard Sarah Palin and John McCain and their proxies whip up their crowds into violent frenzies.
Again, I ask for a little intellectual honesty on the subject.
What I can't believe is that Frum gets Rachael to admit that he stole the conversation. At least she acknowledges it. But he actually manages to steal our time in a masterful way by framing the conversation in such a ludicrous (to any sane person)way that she can't help but address his point. I've been watching him for years and it never ceases to amaze me that he can do this repeatedly and otherwise intelligent opponents. They fall for it every time. He did it weekly to Robert Scheer and Arianna Huffington (dunderhead Matt Miller doesn't count)on Left Right and Center. I almost Turned the Television Machince off when I heard her say his name but I was hoping she'd stick it to him. I won't make the mistake of watching him on her show again. I swear I lose equal time off my life when watching these guys.
So what Mr. Frum is saying is that he'd like to see the mainstream media lift its game?
You know, when Obama gave a solid effort at the beginning of the general election season to keep things honest and honorable, it sure as hell wasn't Maddow who riled up McCain supporters to dwell on race issues such as Rev. Wright, nor was it Olbermann who whipped up the frenzy of Bill Ayers.
If a campaign spokesman for Obama were to go on a show and say, "yes, we tried to keep it civil for as long as we could but McCain's dirty campaign tactics left us with no choice but to get in the mud with him," then nobody here could argue with that sentiment. For David Frum to say basically the same thing about the MSM is laughable.
Rachael Maddow's casual dissection of David Frum revealed that his ass is 99 percent of his mass.
Just imagine... Rachel interviewing Sara Palin.
How I wish Palin or even McGramps would be interviewed by Maddow. At least Obama had the stones to be interviewed by O'Reilly. Although in that case, the , the intellectual scales were very much tipped in favor of our future President....
When you watch and listen to Maddow, don't you think the republicans are just wishing Palin could converse just half as well on the subjects.
Of course, I doubt many repubs watch Maddow -- but they should.
Olberman and Maddow, Stewart and Colbert -- the only reasons to watch TV anymore.
Regardless of what statements and policies Frum has made and supported before,
it doesn't change the fact that he has a point.
John Stewart said the same thing a couple of years ago -- you people (network pundits)
are hurting America. We need more pundits focused on an exploration of the issues
and not recycling conservative and liberal talking points.
The McCain campaign has been totally reckless in fostering an agenda of hate.
But that doesn't mean that we on the Left need to try and do the same.
Of course these two actions are of an entirely different magnitude.
No one on the left is advocating lynching McCain, or bringing a Monkey McCain dolls
to rallies. But none of that changes the fact that we all deserve better coverage
from our pundits.
Even if the messenger is repugnant (as Frum can be and has been in the past)
it doesn't mean that the message itself is entirely without merit.
I would LOVE for the national dialogue to be elevated. Nothing would please me more than those strictures put on Hannity, Limbaugh, Savage, O'Reilly and even in his more vitriolic moments, Olbermann.
But could you tell me how Rachel Maddow lowers the dialogue and fosters an agenda of hate?
Frum went specifically after Maddow, not the media at large. He's not bothered to chide any of the right wing hosts who regularly demonize half of the country. He hasn't chided his colleagues at the NRO. He hasn't taken responsibility for his own debased comments.
But somehow saying that Rachel Maddow -- whose discourse is ALWAYS civil and reasoned with facts -- should elevate her dialogue, Frum has a point?
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