On Tolerance and Healing
The idea of a mosque being built at Ground Zero has the right foaming at the mouth. The very idea! How could Muslims be so insensitive as to try to put their 7th Century religion in view of the greatest American tragedy? Everyone from Newt Gingrich to Sarah Palin to Republican hopefuls are clamoring to denounce the Cordoba House. And late last week, the Anti-Defamation League added their voice too:
We regard freedom of religion as a cornerstone of the American democracy, and that freedom must include the right of all Americans – Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and other faiths – to build community centers and houses of worship.
We categorically reject appeals to bigotry on the basis of religion, and condemn those whose opposition to this proposed Islamic Center is a manifestation of such bigotry.
The controversy which has emerged regarding the building of an Islamic Center at this location is counterproductive to the healing process. Therefore, under these unique circumstances, we believe the City of New York would be better served if an alternative location could be found.
But....
There are many emotions and few facts swirling around this argument.
First and foremost, the Cordoba House is not a mosque as Muslims generally use the term. There will be no minarets, no calls to prayer. It is a cultural center, which will include a prayer room. From their website:
This proposed project is about promoting integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture. Cordoba House will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their backgrounds, will find a center of learning, art and culture; and most importantly, a center guided by Islamic values in their truest form - compassion, generosity, and respect for all.
The site will contain tremendous amounts of resources that otherwise would not exist in Lower Manhattan; a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants - all these services would form a cultural nexus for a region of New York City that, as it continues to grow, requires the sort of hub that Cordoba House will provide.
That sounds really insensitive, doesn't it? The Cordoba House is planned along the same lines as the nearby 92nd St Y, which offers Jewish cultural events through out the year.
Secondly, it's not at Ground Zero. It's two blocks away and the thirteen story building will be dwarfed by the 105 story Freedom Tower and 9/11 Memorial and Museum that are actually being built at Ground Zero.
Thirdly, and it's embarrassing to see Americans once again championing ignorance, but Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the chairman of the Cordoba House, is a Sufi. Al Qaeda is Sunni (actually, more accurately Wahabi) and consider Sufis apostates. Al Qaeda has less tolerance for Imam Rauf than Sarah Palin, as frightening as that is to consider.
And finally, as much as it pains me to have to point out something so obvious, it was not just Christians and Jews who died on 9/11, any more than it was not just Americans. And the Muslims who live and wish to gather in New York at the Cordoba House are more than likely Americans. You know, with their Constitutionally-protected right to practice the faith of their choice. Do they not deserve a chance to heal from this tragedy as well? They must face the irrational bigotry of people like Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich appealing to the lizard brains of their neighbors. The scars they have carried and the burden and suspicion they must face daily because of some fringe extremists in a faith 1.5 billion strong is a little like holding every American Christian as suspect because of the acts of Fred Phelps.
Would that these Republicans remember that.
but, come to my country to subverse, convert, and claim what does not belogn to you. And they do that quite often.
Can we build a cathedral in Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim country?
Enlight me! Let know where.
"Come to my country?"
They are part of the country. It belongs to them too. They are not trying subverse or convert anyone; they are asking for tolerance for their existence.
I'm not sure I understand your point either. We should subvert our Constitution and values because of the values of other countries?
FWIW, I lived abroad as a child. I was a practicing Catholic in Iran before the Revolution. So what you would prefer is that we comport ourselves like they do in post-Revolutionary Iran.
Seriously?
Ya mean you're not still a broad?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Oh no, I'm still a broad. I'm just not abroad while being so. :)
Christians have a long history of conversion by the sword. American Christians have a similar history, specifically with Native Americans. Convert or we won't give you any food; for a while after the Civil War the existing reservations were turned over to missionaries. That experiment didn't work very well.
Sufism is indeed, as the story says, about compassion and tolerance. Obviously you missed reading there.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rju9b_Uk8Sw
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
It's actually in the bible to convert the entire world to Christianity. -_-
It's only "different" from their attempts at conversion if you forego all logic, reason, and evidence, and act on the blind assumption that they are bad and we are good.
?
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
is that, as in Moorish Spain a thousand years ago, Muslims, Christians, and Jews easily lived together without excessive acrimony. There, and in those days, the Muslims were in charge, and had a light hand in 'community relations'. The Ottoman empire was similarly not too very harsh. Should we ask why Christians aren't as 'Christian' as the Muslims? BTW, I am an old white guy of Italian-Polish descent raised as a Catholic. I am an anti-antisemite, and include Arabs as semites. So there!
Al-Andalus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRcpNrzoSEw
(Of course Al-Andalus destruction started with militant Islamists from Northern Africa trying to impose their rule on it, and the final straw being Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand expelling the last of the Jews and Muslims, and handing over some of the money they gained from confiscated estates to Christopher Columbus for his voyage in 1492).
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
jews were expelled...forced to convert or killed
most ended up in egypt
please dont rewrite history
the moors just got killed.
You can thank the loving Christians for the Spanish Inquisition, dude. They were the ones threatening torture and death to anyone who didn't convert.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
I have a feeling you don't know what "a natural right" is.
If you belived in rights then they apply to all peacful citizens of your country.
"Can we build a cathedral in Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim country?"
How does a medieval/opressive/radicalised society in another part of the world, have any relevance to how your society should behave? Bigotry does not justify bigotry.
I swear stories like this make me want to gouge somebody's eyes out...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vo9AH4vG2wA
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZCe8Fw8vyM
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
"The Cordoba House is planned along the same lines as the nearby 92nd St Y"
Really? 92nd St and 34th St are now "nearby" Ground Zero?
I agree with the overall point -- let it be built -- but citing midtown and the Upper West as "nearby" just makes you sound like a non-New Yorker arguing about New York.
and the "nearby" was my understanding from the HuffPo article on the relative distance from Ground Zero.
Admittedly, I could have read it wrong.
The Anti-Defamation League's Statement On Islamic Community Center Near Ground Zero doesn't surprise me a bit.
They weren't any help during the Civil Rights Movement either.
If it's not their ox getting gored they couldn't care less.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
building a Federal building in Waco's Branch Davidians site.
It's just like so-called "Christians" invading indigenous people's lands and building their hideous "churches" there.
Tear down all the "churches" and then we'll discuss the mosques, OK?
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Referring to them as indigenous people's lands (if you're referring to AmerIndians and not Hawaiians and others) is a misnomer, since the AmerIndians had little concept of the private property of land.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
they got wiped out? No sense of ownership?
They were also techonologically on the disadvantaged side
And like the Ancient Celts against the Romans, often effective fighters but decentralized, given to squabbling among themselves, with some tribes helping the invaders and others resisting them.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Te...
the romans, the original nazis, as grace slick said so well,
"We bought your dirty stories
2000 years, 2000 years, 2000 years
And your god damned glory"
They got wiped out because they hadn't been exposed to smallpox, since they hadn't had contact with the animals that passed it on to humans in Eurasia and Africa.
All it took was one Spanish sailor with smallpox in the early 16th century to wipe out the Mississippian culture.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
I was talking about the history of fighting not pandemics.
But at least you got it right, it was due to not having an in-built resistance and not some unsubstantiated conspiracy of early biological warfare.
The same would hit the Europeans when they pushed toward equatorial Africa, and to Americans when they went to Korea and Vietnam.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I was replying to Garcia.
;)
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Okie-Dokie...
Come to think of it, there were Army sites in Europe that most of the Allied Powers stopped in during WWI, where they even did their own farming and ranching of pigs and chickens, that is now felt to be the hub of the world-wide Yellow Fever pandemic.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Maybe?
Don't reply. We're way off on a wholly unrelated tangent of a tangent of a tangent now.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
It was the Spanish Influenza.
But it's closely related to both Swine Flu and Avian Flu.
But what do you expect and avian to do, swim?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
The white Christians decided it was perfectly okay to slaughter and kidnap the native people and take their land since "they weren't doing anything with it". Since the natives didn't claim ownership, the murderers decided they had the right to help themselves.
Not that claiming ownership would have helped, seeing as how all the guns and ammo were on one side. But yes, that was the rationale.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
since my people didn't have european-style pieces of paper to show which territories were theirs, they had no concept of ownership ..
white man's bs
the area around me was shared hunting grounds. notice the word "shared" .. we shared .. a concept foreign to the kleptomaniacs who invaded here ..
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
You forget my statements in the past, I have some Cherokee blood, although it's primarily Goedelic.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
New York City was awarded $24 for the entire island of Manhattan. Typical New Yorkers are encouraged to exit the city for their own safety.
More after these messages from the current God in power.
all Muslims = terrorists?
Are you really examining your logic on this?
in Belfast are totaly different as the
Catholics in South America.
but what is your point?
I'm sure that your analogy is significant to you, but it's getting lost on me.
'Bout a kingdom on a mountain
And the valley-folk below.
On the mountain was a treasure
Buried deep beneath the stone,
And the valley-people swore
They'd have it for their very own.
So the people of the valley
Sent a message up the hill,
Asking for the buried treasure,
Tons of gold for which they'd kill.
Came an answer from the kingdom,
"With our brothers we will share
All the secrets of our mountain,
All the riches buried there."
Now the valley cried with anger,
"Mount your horses! Draw your sword!"
And they killed the mountain-people,
So they won their just reward.
Now they stood beside the treasure,
On the mountain, dark and red.
Turned the stone and looked beneath it...
"Peace on Earth" was all it said.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Sun, 08/01/2010 - 09:27 — garcia
building a Federal building in Waco's Branch Davidians site.
______________________________________________________________
Yeah, I'm pushing for a brothel...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
aha ..
Mineral Management Services office
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
How about an Indian Casino?
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
to suggest some celebrity employees.
Be as you wish to seem
The Feds at Waco were clearly defined as a branch of the government working for the government and on behalf of the government. The 9/11 attackers - no matter how how deluded they were- did not reprisent a significant enough number of other islamic people.
The only way any peacful Muslims have an assocation to the 9/11 terrorists is that they shared the same religion.
Guilt by association according to religion -even subsets of particular religions- is as dumb a logic as guilt by association according to race......If I am a Black Hindu person, I should not be held accountable for what another, completely unassociated hindu or black person does that is not sanctioned or required of my religion or race.
Anybody who makes those associations is a bigot at the worst and ignorant at the least.
Looking at the number of Muslim people in the word it would false to claim that the 9/11 attackers had the sympathy of a significate swathe of the world's Muslim population.
It is simply pandering to Al Qaeda by buying into the concept a war between the West and Islam rather than the reality of a war between the West and Extremist Muslims. Being in any way offended by peacful practicing Muslims says more about you than them.
I switched to watching CBS Evening News for about two weeks (I like to rotate my news sources to get different perspectives), and was hoping the network of Murrow and Cronkite might give a bit more balance.
Instead, after two weeks, I found every story that was bad for Conservatives was "balanced" with false-equivalency ("Democrats do it too") examples (ie: NAACP reporting on Tea Party racism was "balanced" with the MoveOn "Bush/Hitler" contest entry that wasn't even created by MoveOn and was yanked the moment someone reported it.)
Then, on this "Mosque" story Friday, they (almost casually) inserted ONE LINE that "supporters of the Cultural Center point out that it is NOT a mosque, and that there will be only one room available for prayer". That was the sum total "balance" in the entire report.
* There are two types of Republicans: millionaires and suckers.
"Mugsy's Rap Sheet": Recording history for those who seek to rewrite it.
And how many have died in Iraq and Afghanistan since?
I guess repaying the violence of that day with millions now dead is not enough, we must also make an entire religion guilty by association.
I know radical, rightwing Christianity (the kind completely disconnected from the teachings of Christ) poses to me, as an American, a far greater threat to my safety and well being than the weight of the entire Muslim world.
Radix Omnium Malorum Avaritia
If NYC denies construction then another property with more money invested will be purchased for the same purpose.
If that property is denied then another property will be leased to hold meetings. If those meetings are prevented then another property will be rented in which to hold meetings - ad infinitum.
Please don't make New York like the mid-east. Let them build it.
Let them build the original one and don't make slanted rights precedent from this.
It always amazes me how few people seem to realize that Muslims likely died in the blast of 9-11 as well, among others.
Afterall, it was the WORLD Trade Towers...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
We've all been told the attacks of 9-11 were the fault of radical muslims.
And since the real perpetrators (whoever they are) have never been brought to justice, and we're told daily that there are more of "them" out there trying to destroy our "freedoms," and we're spending boatloads of money to "kill them over there so they don't kill us over here," I think it's natural some fools here in the US would vilify all Muslims.
But the damage has been done. Even if it turned out the entire official 9-11 scenario was a fabrication, and no Muslims were in charge of the operation, I'm sure the rightwing hatred of Muslims would still be a force loose in our body politic.
Democracy is too important to be entrusted to politicians.
Rise Up!
Protest!
Rightwing hatred of Muslims? Who-Dat?
9/11 was the fault of RADICAL Muslims.
That is not the Sufis or the million of peace-loving Muslim Americans in this country.
What Garcia and others like him (and honestly, Garcia, how does it feel to be in the same camp as Gingrich and Palin?) refuses to do is distinguish between the two.
We've made hating all Muslims the last safe bigotry for the left and right alike and that's just sad.
Your point is that because other countries don't share our values and Constitutionally-protected rights to congregate and practice the faith of your choice, we should subvert our Constitution and emulate them?
Hating on Muslims is not a very progressive thing to do, Democrat or not. It is especially irrational given your beliefs on 9/11.
and still want a reply. No. I don't hate Muslims. But some people have an already definite opinion about what happened in New York. They have nothing to do with this tragedy, but the opinion remains. I bet you will delete this post too.
The site team is. We have rules about posting on 9/11, you know that.
If you don't hate Muslims, explain your intolerance for the Cordoba House. Your statements thus far have not made a lot of sense or sounded particularly like someone with a lot of tolerance.
Funny, American news never refers to the Ku Klux Klan as "a radical Christian terrorist organization," which is exactly what it is.
But al Qaeda? Oh, they're "Islamic terrorists," never mind the radical.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
Simpsons quote:
"IT'S TRYING TO BRING US LOVE! DON'T LET IT GET AWAY!"
http://www.hulu.com/watch/30935/the-simpsons-...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Why, the very idea! Imagine trying to build a mecca (..ahem...) of tolerance towards religions! In America! Where do they think they are? Some country where there's freedom of (and from) religion?
Man, I bet if Jesus were still here he'd have a thing or two to say about tolerance and turning the other cheek and soforth. I bet he'd be setting off bombs to keep them mooslims outta Nuevo York.
Well, he was Jewish, maybe he'd be a Zionist as well...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
"Don't let them leave."
Oh, wait.
That's The Pianist
Repubs are such hypocrites. If they purchased the land then they should have the right to build their mosque regardless of what happen in that area. Do the repubs want BIG GOVERNMENT to step in and stop this. This is America not Saudi Abrabia.
"The idea of a mosque being built at Ground Zero has the right foaming at the mouth. The very idea! How could Muslims be so insensitive as to try to put their 7th Century religion in view of the greatest American tragedy?"
Yeah! Their 4th century Christianity is waayyyy cooler!
Has screwed up life in general.
I have no problems with this building being built there.
I do think their timing is bad. I do think wanting to build this now is a mistake. Actually, I find it in bad taste.
Surely they knew there would be an upheaval of opinions.
But, this is a free country(for some).
They should have the same rights and privileges to buy and build this thing where ever they want.
I just find their timing to be in bad taste. That's all.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
If the issue is timing, Muddy, when would it be okay?
Do you think that if it had been 20 years from now, the Republicans wouldn't try to milk it the exact same way?
Heh, 20 years from now the Republicans will have successfully appointed judges to the Supreme Court who believe that the original intent of the First Amendment was to protect only freedom for Christian sects, not Muslims. 20 years from now the Republicans will be worse.
At least, if I can judge by the party's evolution in my lifetime. When I was born, Republicans certainly weren't this bad. 20-30 years before my birth, there were reasonable Republicans in the government.
Besides, how can the timing be bad? It's been almost a decade since 9/11/2001, and the governments of New York City, New York State and the U.S.A. sure haven't fixed that devastated region. Let all religions, not to mention skeptic and atheist organizations, build on site. Leaving that area as it is makes it a shrine to fear and intolerance.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
But the timing will never be good. Not as long as the hatred is still fueled by irrational thinking people.
There can be an argument made that since we are still at war in Afghanistan, that American lives are still being lost over there, that it is still too early. But that's a different story altogether.
This building isn't some new project. It had to take quite a bit of time to get the property, designs, permits, and architectural approval. So this has to have been in the works for quite some time.
Bottom line, As long as America is fighting and losing American lives, these memories are still too fresh in most Americans lives.
Not to mention almost 10 years ago.
When you throw in the racial bias from the GOp spun media, it's going to be quite awhile, before people accept this building.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
You're accepting the framing that these people are not AMERICANS by saying it's bad timing.
Hell, Muddy, some of these American Muslims interested in creating this cultural center in NYC to promote interfaith tolerance and understanding may have relatives in Afghanistan too...on both sides, getting killed.
With all due respect, because you know I loves ya, but the timing excuse doesn't work for me.
I am not implying that the Muslim folks who want this building are not Americans. I'm suggesting, that the reason there is an objection to this building is because the US is still at war in a Muslim country. That's all.
I can't explain why some people have this irrational belief that all Muslims are evil.
Freedom of religion is just that. Freedom for all religions and the freedom to not have a religion.
But what we're talking about here is the general population of this country. And their perspective on Islam.
And due to the media blitz saying all Islam is evil and the Muslims are evil, this is the resulting affect.
Do I believe that? No.
Do I think this is still bad timing on the part of some folks who want this building built? Yes, I do.
I think they needed to be smarter than what they were.
We're not dealing with a rational thinking populace.
That's one of the reasons I think this was bad timing.
And I do feel that as long as the US in is central Asia, fighting and losing American lives, that it will be still be perceived to be too soon.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Because honestly, you've already acknowledged there is no good timing for this.
I think for NY to approve a center intended to reach out and encourage interfaith tolerance is needed symbol that we will not be cowed by terrorism.
So you think we should give in to the haters?
That's the second time you've tried to put words in my mouth Nicole.
That's not very sporting of you.
You have a nice night.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
This isn't a sport, Muddy. I have skin in this game, as you know, because I have Muslims in my family (Sufis, to be exact) and I see the prejudice and ugliness directed towards them. It bothers me greatly that the irrational hating on Muslims on both the right and the left (not that you're doing it) as an acceptable prejudice. Muslims do not = terrorism. It's that simple and as long as we keep accepting that framing, it will be that much harder for my Muslim uncle and cousins to be viewed as the peace-loving American citizens that they are.
I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. I am trying to reiterate what you're saying to make sure I'm catching what you mean.
You say that the founders of this cultural center are suffering from bad timing because Americans are still dying in a Muslim country. (Muslims are dying there too--in far greater numbers. And they didn't start this war.)
But then you admit that there may never be a good time for them.
So I ask you, what's the answer? Give in to the haters? Allow the small and narrow-minded to rule the day?
Or does NY press on and allow the cultural center to be built and say that we embrace America's diverse make up and tolerance for all?
Some people in this country still harbor prejudice's and bias towards Germans and the Japanese. The Koreans and Vietnamese. The Mexicans. The Italians. The Irish. The British. Pretty much anyone who isn't a WASP who was or wasn't born in this country.
It's the way this country is. And I doubt I'll live long enough to see it end.
The mistake I'm talking about as far as bad timing is, they didn't have a very good public relations campaign for this.
As far as I know, none. But I'm all the way over here in California, so, what do I know.
They could have made a better effort to sway the public opinion in favor of building this community center. Because, that's what this sounds like too me. It's a community center.
Yes, I recognize that they have gone to some extent to make it so this doesn't offend the sensibilities of the people in that area.
I also still feel that with a war going on in an Islamic country, this is not the best time to approach the people of that area with this. It just isn't. I could go on about times and cultures of a different time in which we were at war with. But ,what's the point?
So, no matter what happens, there will be hatred to deal with, no matter what. So, they may as well build it. And deal with the hatred that will follow. Because, you know there will be more than one or two nut cases who try to mess it up.
But, I would like to think that these folks would be smart enough to find a way to quell any hatred or violence that most likely will occur. But, That's a tall order. All New Yorkers remember is those building coming down. And who were painted as being responsible.
If anyone is too blame for this, it's the media. For not speaking out about which sect of Islam did this. And I'm referring to a radicalized sect. Not Islam in general.. That, and the GOP. For pouring gasoline on the fire.
I fully understand that this countries foreign policy regarding the Middle East is the reason 911 happened. That and our relationship with Israel. And it is part of this story. But now, is not the time for that story.
Have a nice night Nicole.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
You know that the Sufis are like the Quakers or Universalist Unitarians of Islam, don't you? Okay, by reading what you've been writing here, probably not.
Boil it down, this is like you or me going to Europe and being held responsible for the wingnuts' behavior.
Don't try to confuse the issue with half-truths and gorilla dust.
Please, I'm no fan of any religion. As you already know. And yes, a large part of the planet didn't care what any of us were relating to politics here in the US.
We we're pretty much all thrown into the same pot.
That's just my opinion on this topic.
I did state that I have no actual personal problem with this building being built.
I also stated that I thought the owners of this building needed to be smarter than they were.
My dad said something that stuck with me awhile ago.
He said that most people have mostly forgotten Sept 11th.
He also said, Ask a New Yorker?
With that, I'm out for donuts.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
But my wife just summonsed me to go get her some donuts.
It's her sweet tooth kinda thing.
But I'll be back in awhile.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
Knocking boots lead to being knocked up and to the munchies...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Ok, Lets go.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
I was speaking about the public perception at large. Good.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
but how does this public perception- which I'm sure you've stated is not your view- change if it's not confronted?
I'm sorry it's taken so long for me to respond to your question.
As we've all seen, racism/bigotry,bias really hasn't made much progress in the US.
I like to think that we've made progress.
With all this bs coming out of Arizona, this issue from this thread, the subliminal racism directed at the President of the United States, hell, sometimes not so subliminal. It shows me that we still have a long way to go.
This situation in New York with this community center is a lose/win.
I say that because at first, there will be unfortunate incidents of racism and bigotry. But, in the long run, it will be like anything else.
People won't even think about it. They'll walk right by the building without even thinking about it.
What I was referring to was the immediate response from the people with their heads still up their backsides.
I still think that since we're still in a war in Central Asia, the timing could have been better. But, then again, when would be a good time? Nicole made very valid points. If not now, when?
The thing we have to be willing to accept is dealing with these people. That's the big question. Are people willing to stick with this, or will it be like just another news cycle? Gone in a day.
Because, there will be trouble.
Thank you for your question watu. I'm glad you could see what I was trying to say.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
But we're not fighting Islam. We're fighting "terrorism." Why take it out on the religion. That'd be like saying we've got to go to war with Christianity because lunatic southern babtists blowup medical clinics.
Dude, it's been almost TEN YEARS since the catastrophe. How long would you have them wait? It's not the timing of the building that's off; it's the timing of the crazed rightwing dipshits who are completely against any real resolution or attempt at healing over this whole thing. THEY would rather this country remain in a lather of hatred and revenge for the rest of eternity. Thank the gods there are sane people who would like to get past that ugly, atavistic state of mind.
There's always free cheddar in the mousetrap, baby. - Tom Waits
at it's tolerant leanings, since it refers to a very specific part of the history of Muslim and European relations where there was actually relative peace between Christians, Muslims, and Jews, although there was conflict between rival Muslim groups. Of course that all ended with the Reconqusita with Muslims and Jews being driven out of Spain or forced to convert to Catholicism.
It's tragic that these ignoramuses who are hyperventilating over the community center have no idea about this history or have been taught a highly distorted version of its events.
I've never seen change without a fire
In other words . . .
Freedom of religion is important for everyone. Bigotry is bad, always. However, since the bigots have stirred up a storm about these guys practicing their religion here, we should try to calm the storm instead of defend the freedom of religion.
Everyone is equally entitled to the pursuit of happiness. Wasn't that once self evident?
The organization founded to promote tolerance has said that promoting tolerance is less important than placating the bigots.
This is not about religion. It is all about poltics. Main stream people of faith have no problem with a community center. It is always the fundamentalists that spew the intolerance, the literal dogma and incite the voilent responses. Look at the source of such controveries. It is the most extreme fringe that always sparks the flames; the Bill Donohues, the Fallwells, Dobsons, the nutty Dove Church in Florida or some other fundamentalist church advocating guns in church, the most extreme backers of Isreal regardless of their military tactics. It is pure intolerance at the root. There is nothing religous, moral, or reasoned in the equation.
http://www.graffiti.org/war/war2008.jpg
that these people dont get?
if the area was not zoned for a cultural center...it could not be built
but it is, therefore, it cannot be stopped
let them build it and then use your constitutional freedoms for daily protests
end of story
The community center is NOT at ground zero. It is not even close. The right wing media is just making shit up again.
Republicans are liars and simply cannot be trusted.
The ADL lists all the reasons to protect the Jewish faith and then states quite clearly that those rasons do not apply to Muslims, giving as the sole reason to disregard the same laws that protect its faith, that there is a "controversy."
If "controversy" is the only reason to disregard laws, American ideals of tolerance, and tradition, as the grounds to limit lawful freedom religious expression, and to punish the innocent for the crimes of another, then there is no law, or tolerance applicable to anything any American does or says or believes.
How can non biggots stand up and protect against biggotery when the people, faiths, politics, ethnicity etc. they, as non or at least anti-biggots are trying to protect -
are themselves biggots!?
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