July 06, 2010 03:30 PM
BP Will Penalize Fishermen For Not Helping To Clean Up Their Toxic Mess. Unbelievable!
Kindra Arnesen is the wife of a Gulf fisherman and she's been kicking butt on exposing BP abuses. In this latest news, she's discovered that BP is claiming is that if fishermen choose not to take part in the oil spill cleanup, BP will consider that as potential income declined and deduct it from their claims.
Kindra has previously talked about the serious health problems manifesting in those who have taken part in the cleanup.
In other words, if you didn't want to risk your health and expose yourself to their toxic waste, you're going to suffer financially as a result. But doesn't BP have a pretty sunflower logo?
Wait, how the hell can BP penalize fishermen? It's not like they are the fecking government!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
LOLOL. Sorry...wrong. Yes. They are!
When you pay the slaves, it's not slavery. Next up...schools over...so the kids have to clean up TOO.
Vote GOP and move forward to the 18th Century.
on 'legit' claims. Their money, apparently they are judge and jury as well.
So BP, if a fisher turned down a job at Micky D's, would you penalise them for that? "Hey! you could have been flipping burgers for minimum, you ingrate!"
The Fascist States of America, fuck yeah!
me-oww!
Is BP handeling the claims? If so that would be fecked.
There should be an independent inquiry!
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
Their whole PR plan was to 'get out in front of it' as they say, and promise to pay people who have suffered losses, without the gov't being involved.
But now it looks like they think they are the goddamn unemployment insurance office, which does deduct from claims if you are getting unemployment, but are unavailable for work in their field. That's a whole different kettle of (toxic waste damaged) fish.
For one, in the unemployment insurance scenario, if you were a fisher, and you were offered a job cleaning up an oil spill which you turned down, you would not be denied on your claim, because haz-mat clean up is not your field.
For another, it would be a rarer than rare occurrence, the unemployment office destroying the milieu in which you make your living.
me-oww!
Well they could just ship around with there nets out and "clean" the oil that way. Hee, it's works a lot better than BP does.
In general: BP is a joke. The whole clean up operation is a joke. And yes, America (in this case) is a joke.
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
This woman Kindra is a total ass kicker.
me-oww!
I musta been drinking too much
I thought you wrote ass licker...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/02/us/02spill....
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
given the close ties (as in one party Owns the Other) between our government (including Obama) and our Corporate Masters.
It's all just for show folks.
Corporate Capitalism has become Hazardous to your Health in more ways than one.
Then there is cancer alley in Louisiana, where alot of the refineries in the US are. Has one of the highest cancer rates in the country the government has done nothing about that for years and years, but oh well most of those people are poor so who cares.
This is entirely plausible, but where is the LINK?
A link of what?
Bite my shiny metal ass.
http://www.startalkradio.net/
it's the video. In the OP. the one that made this thread.
me-oww!
Thanks - I'm on a mobile...so vid wasn't showing up. + rep!
devote the 8 minutes to watching it. This woman is an inspiration, and is doing what she needs to do to help her friends and neighbouring states impacted by this, by getting in BP's face.
I am so not into mobile technology I never think about that. When someone hands me a cell phone to make a call, I have to ask how it works...
:)
me-oww!
http://www.merlesbarbq.com/images/merlesplate...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
I know, why don't we just give all the oil companies another couple of billion dollars in tax breaks and subsidizes. I would like to thank president Bush and Mr Cheney for their upmost concern over the well being of the people of the United States. I'm sure they would be more then happy to release the secret meeting they had with all the oil companies and Halliburton. I'm sure it would show just how concerned they were for the American people.
http://www.rickackerman.com/2010/07/a-dire-vi...
said they'd honor all "legitimate" claims re payout compensation. That key word -- "legitimate" stuck in my craw from the beginning. BP will try anything to get as many claims possible deemed "not legitimate." This is just the first of thousands of scams they're going to try and run.
"By words the mind is winged." - Aristophanes
will instead be meting out punishment to their victims.
Go BP!
Is hazmat clean up unskilled labour? I think the specialest place in hell at this point in time IS reserved for the souls running the BP show.
me-oww!
challenge BP on this?
so far they have let BP run the show, which in itself is outrageous. But then again, they are letting the criminal banksters run WALL STREET and Treasury.
So they are consistent.
The corporations are making you a slave. Goodbye freedom!
Yep. All part of the plan.
*
Stick to your guns Kindra, you're doing the right thing. I'd like to think this kind of crap will be tossed out of court ... I hope so anyway.
*
Energy stocks rally; BP, Repsol are top gainers
It's sad that America is such a joke now a days that we can't even hold these criminals accountible.
Hopefully that will change.
BP's flagrant criminal negligence and greed caused the greatest environmental catastrophe in our history, in addition to killing 11 workers when the rig blew up. They did this in Federal Waters, under Federal leases and permits, to mine oil owned supposedly by the US. The resulting gusher has killed countless thousands of innocent animals, and will end in killing millions for years to come. The beaches and wetlands of several states are being destroyed, and will stay that way for decades. BP, in response, continues to harvest a small percentage of oil from the gusher, uses local police to bully press & people away from the ruined public lands, restricts the airways over the spill to stop photos there, runs a Potemkin clean up, just to keep the photo ops going, while jailing people for taking photos of dead wildlife, & engages in a mega million dollar propaganda campaign to spin the disaster. Then, upon being commanded to actually set aside funds to pay for the despoilation and ruin they caused, they shanghai the now-unemployed local victims into working for them, but of course deny them respirators, protective gear, medical access except to their own company medical whores, & ban them from talking to the press about things. And now, they announce that if you don't sign on as indentured slaves to clean up THEIR mess on THEIR terms, they'll dock any monies you "potentially" would have earned from the monies they owe YOU for the ruin of YOUR lives. In other words, they expect to pay your damages in part as WAGES. And if you don't sign up, you get docked. They view all the bankrupt residents of the Gulf as their private labor pool, and how dare anyone refuse that paycheck? They are saying, in short, that they OWN us all.
Can it be laid out any more plainly? And when does public outrage finally overflow enough to put a stop to this bottomless, despicable villainy?
fascism and socialism are not the same thing. I'm thinking around the twelfth of never, with the brain trust this country has turned out to be.
me-oww!
...and welcome to the big plantation, Land O' the Serfs
snorting coke and watching porn with MMS?
you donate to Joe Barton's campaign you get even more money?
This boggles the mind. Basically, it sounds like the unemployed fishermen constitute a conscripted class of employees.
And if the fishermen perform the cleanup work and then their health is ruined - or worse, if they die as the result of the cleanup work - do I understand correctly that any recourse must be handled through the state's workers comp system & laws? As we know that system has been jiggered in the employers' favor by businesses that paid off legislators to write workplace injury laws that fleece most injured workers.
I've heard that fisherman have been applying to do just that for BP and not getting responses, so going out on there own to try to help cleaning with pay or permission from either bp of Uncle Suckah...
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Senator from LA, Mary Landreau.
Kindra Arnesen
Well done!
screwing people.
those PR campaigns about how they aren't trying to screw people due to their negligence cost a lot.
Kindra loses $100 per day because she can no longer take tourists out to fish in her boat because I screwed up the ocean.
I gotta pay Kindra for lost income.
I gotta clean up the ocean. I offer Kindra $100 per day to use her boat to help clean up the ocean. Kindra accepts.
Because I screwed up the ocean, Kindra makes $200 per day so long as she works to clean up the ocean.
Kindra also owns a motel. She averages $200 per day renting to people she takes out in her boat and the odd passerby. I gotta pay Kindra $200 per day for the lost motel rent because I screwed up the ocean. I offer Kendra $200 per day to rent the Motel rooms I need for clean up workers I have brought down to help. Kendra makes $400
per day so long as she rents to people cleaning up the ocean.
Sound about right?
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
Kindra's livelihood is not cleaning up spilled oil. Her livelihood is making a living off a waterway that's now been spoiled for decades through no fault of her own- save a possible vote for a politician that allowed this to happen. Even if she get's compensated for 100% of her "legitimate" losses, her livelihood was permanently damaged by the spill. In the real world, however, Kindra will have to fight the remaining days of her life for something that was out and out stolen from her. the end.
You're not correct and neither is BP
me-oww!
if that is not what Kindra is asking for, what is she asking for?
Since what I postulated is a fable, what is she asking for in reality?
It sounds like she wants $100 per day for loss of income for the fishing business, and she wants to use be able to use the guts of her fishing business, her boat and her labor to make $100 per day ( or whatever BP will pay) working on the clean up at her option.
It sounds like BP wants to pay her $100 per day for damages to the fishing business, but deduct from that whatever they are willing to pay her per day to work on clean up. And if she refuses to work on clean up, they only want to pay her the difference between what they owed her for damages and what they were willing to pay for clean up.
Sound to me like both Kindra and BP are trying to make the most out of a bad situation. Kindra through no fault of her own, BP because that is the nature of the beast.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
... is that BP is saying that they want to deduct, from payments to people whose livelihoods they ruined, money they could have made (but declined to make) by wallowing in the toxic mess BP created. That's what this thread is about. I don't blame anyone for not wanting to handle toxic substances, and the fishermen should not have reimbursements reduced because they choose not to go to work for BP.
Kindra started off pissed because she thinks BP wants to deduct the money fisherman make from BP on clean up from what they would be paid to do nothing. She wants them to be able to make the money from working on clean up on top of any money they would get cause of what BP did to their chosen livelihood. When she put that complaint in writing, BP's response was, hey, not only do we think we should be able to deduct what we pay you for clean up work, we think we can deduct what we would have paid you if you had not turned us down. So she is doubly pissed.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
... in the Gulf, I'd be waaaaay more than doubly pissed.
And besides... nobody can know right now what the economic impact will be at any point in the future. If BP is trying to slither out of payments now, imagine how slippery they'll be if the impact to the fisheries last several years... which is likely.
Let's try it this way.
Joe owns a boat. Joe fishes with his boat and makes $100 a day. Bill has dumped toxic waste in the water so that Joe can't fish, and since he feels bad, Bill has promised to pay Joe $100 a day for the days he would have fished but can't. (In the real world, we call those actual damages.)
Now Bill tells Joe that he will pay him if Joe will take his boat out in the toxic waste and helps fix the mess Bill made. Joe isn't trained to clean up toxic waste, and he doesn't have the equipment to clean up toxic waste, and he would vastly prefer not to risk his life and boat mucking about in that cesspool, so Joe declines the offer to change careers.
And now Bill is mad. Bill says, "I would have paid you as much money to clean up toxic waste as you would have made fishing. I'll show you! If you won't do what I want, I'll just deduct $100 for every day that you don't work for ME from what I owe you."
Bill isn't saying that if Joe goes to work cleaning up toxic waste that he hasn't lost income, so Bill doesn't owe him $100 a day. Bill is saying that (a) if Joe goes to work cleaning up toxic waste, Joe hasn't lost income and doesn't deserve payment for his lost income, AND (b) if Joe DOESN'T go to work cleaning up toxic waste, it's his own fault that he isn't making any money and Bill STILL isn't going to pay him.
Joe can't win, and Bill can't lose.
Oh no, it's just Ricky, defending the indefensible, justifying BP and their very own holocost against nature, after they have destroyed an entire ecosystem in the Gulf. How much are they paying you to troll BP's twisted propaganda? So, it's OK with you that BP "docks" somebody's legitimate damages for refusing to poison themselves cleaning up BP's toxic shit, on BP's shit wages? And conversely, it's OK for BP to dragoon people via economic blackmail into ruining their health cleaning up BP's toxic shit, which has destroyed their livelihood forever? There was nothing conditional about the compensation fund, BP is now writing their own terms after the fact, and it needs to be stopped. And of course, we're not even talking about the damage to inland populations, animals, water, & farming, when this crap starts raining down inland. I suppose you'll be cheering for the locals to submit to hiring on for the "clean up", or get fucked by BP over the damages.
Either you have mega stock in this evil crowd of bastards, or you're another clueless dittohead, cheering for the people who are raping the nation, the citizens, & the planet.
Or both.
You said it way better than I could have.
I asked a question. I took no position.
What amazes me is that several people here are so small minded they can launch into a tirade when someone simply asks a question.
Let me repeat my question. Does it sound right that what Kindra is asking for is to be compensated for 100% of lost income due to the spill, but also be free to receive any and all compensation for her services using the same assets for which she is being compensated?
If she is asking for something else, tell me what you think it is.
Don't launch into some nonsensical gibberish.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
..."does that sound about right?" is no, that does not sound about right.
No nonsensical gibberish. Just a "no".
If my understanding of what she is asking for from BP is incorrect what is your understanding.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
... since you asked, Ricky, is NOT what she is asking for... but that she is expressing outrage that fishermen and women are being told that they may have their compensation from BP reduced by the amount they could have made if they went to work for BP. They are not and should not be bound to go to work for BP, and they should not be penalized for declining going to work for BP. That's what I got out of it, and I'll repeat... from the header on this thread ("BP will penalize..."), that seems what it's about.
I have no quarrel with you, and I guess you're entitled to read into it whatever you want. If she is "asking" for anything, I'd say she's asking that BP not penalize those who choose not to work for BP for so choosing. That's all.
for the residents as re compensation for loss.
Compensation for loss is one thing; compensation for labour is a different thing. I thought she explained this well.
BP is paying, w/o regard to other income sources, guest workers (non Gulf residents) full pay. They are telling the fishers that in lieu of their regular income they must work for BP, that the labour performed by them for BP equals compensation for loss of livelihood. They are also being told if they choose not to participate in this labour-for-compensation plan BP cooked up, they get no compensation for loss of livelihood.
"Since we're paying you compensation for loss, you have to work for that compensation," isn't compensation. Saying they HAVE to work for BP doing cleanup is indentured servitude, not compensation for loss.
me-oww!
position is. I think you may have overstated what I think their position is, but we are both in the ball park and have, I suspect, similar views of its moral indefensibility.
My question is about what Kindra wants. In my hypothetical $100 in lost revenue to her fishing enterprise, BP covers that loss. She also wants to be able to use that fishing enterprise asset to work for BP for whatever they are paying everyone else to do the same work, and she does not want it to count against any compensation she might receive for not being able to do the fishing business. Is that right?
If Kindra is in the motel business and loses tourist clients because of the downturn caused by the spill, she is entitled to damages. But if the company that causes the damages replaces the lost clients, should they pay for the lost clients plus the replacements? Is that right?
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
I don't believe any iteration of BP's POV on this thread came from me.
I told you what Kindra said. Compensation for the loss is one thing; compensation for labour is another. She wants compensation for loss. If she (or any similarly compensated resident) chooses to work for BP cleaning up, THAT is paid separately. If a retiree from Massachusetts comes done to help, is BP going to deduct the guy's SS payment from his clean up pay? No.
What she got from BP is "No. We pay you 'compensation.' If you don't work on the booms, we deduct that from your compensation."
me-oww!
I could quote you directly stating what you think BP's positon is. That is immaterial. What I am trying to get at you finally state clearly.
The loss for which she is being compensated is income earned with a fishing boat and crew. She wants to be compensated for that lost income. She also wants to be able to use that boat and crew to earn income at something other than fishing. In this case it is to use the boat and crew working for BP on the clean up. You seem to agree now that the answer to my question, "is that right?" is yes. She wants to be compensated for lost income while earning income.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
You have summed up exactly what the issue is!!
I seldom use the word "hate", but every time I see a BP commercial or print ad featuring a very earnest- and humble-appearing employee saying how BP is going to make everything right, my hatred for BP and everyone representing them skyrockets.
All over the coast, including here in the FL Keys, BP is sending sweet-talking nicey-nice representatives to meetings, having them speak publicly, and buying full-page print ads in local papers, telling us how wonderful BP is. Yet they, the criminals, are still in charge of the crime scene, they are still lying about the impacts, they have OUR government keeping people and media in the affected areas from getting close enough to find out the truth, and they hurl insults at the people directly affected, such as the payment policy Ms. Arnesen outlines in this video.
BP is sparing no expense in their PR campaign to try to smooth things over.
Every time one of these sweet-talking BP people appears at a public meeting, they should be shouted down and made to wonder if they'll get out in one piece. Yeah, they're now putting BP people who happen to be Louisiana natives on TV, because they know we are fed up with the likes of Tony Hayward. It is all for show. US citizens who work for BP are whores for being used in this way.
I hope that the article's author(s) misinterpreted some actuarial data and that the average Exxon Valdez cleanup worker did not really die at age 51... but if this article is even close to accurate (CNN was the apparent source of the original story), I don't blame anyone for not wanting to go to work cleaning up BP's mess.
http://www.businessinsider.com/warning-to-gul...
but I followed your link and went where it led me. I cannot find that there is any evidence to back up the claim made by the author.
Several people have picked up related claims, repeated them and posted them. It all leads back to the abbreviated You Tube clip of an interviews with an unnamed individual on CNN. She states "most" of the 11,000 clean up workers on the Exxon Valdez spill are dead, and "almost all" are dead. I find that claim hard to believe and no documentation can be found to back it up. Rikki Ott seeems to be tied to most of the links in one way or another, and I cannot find any instance where she makes such a claim.
The businessinsider.com article you link has comments from some of the "almost all dead" refuting the claim.
“Why would anyone with a functioning brain believe this guy?”
Some guy with an eating disorder
Come on now , we should appreciate BP and the oil companies , they keep this country running , where would we be without them ? Stuff happens .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
The above post is what I actually heard out of the mouth of a friggin Limbaugh listening Repug .
Insanity , it is what it is , there is no understanding it .
.
Notice Rash Limbo won't lift a finger or give a dollar....
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
No work for Massa cleaning up the sludge, no dinner, boy. Pretty clear who's got the whip in America.
Since a lot of you have made reference to surfs, massa & slaves....
I want to put a bend in this road and try to enlighten a few folks that the state of minorities in this country is exactly what has happened with BP.
White folks poisoned the waters, not with oil, but with slavery, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination, Jim Crow and hundreds of myths and fallacies about Blacks, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, Irish, Jews - and just about anyone else they were pissed at, oh yes, the Gays - can't forget teh Gay - some of which they still perpetuate and believe to this day - all to keep white privilege & superiority firmly in check.
This result of this poison is second class citizenship or outright disavowal of citizenship (as in the case of calling black Katrina victims "refugees"). People of color are seen as only having rights that White people allow them to have and only in the amounts that white people say they can have them. However liberal your mindset is still the limit - not equality - but merely the amount that your liberalness will allow.
BP is not thinking, "How do I work with "those people"." BP is thinking, "What are we going to do about those people." To BP these people are merely an infestation of insects or rodents that must be dealt with, if not eradicated entirely. Not sentient beings with livelihoods they have destroyed and that BP must make whole. Just a flea to be flicked off BP's ass.
Likewise, most White people don't think of People of Color as sentient beings who they can and should work with for the betterment of our country and collective future. No, they merely wonder "When is someone going to do something about "those people" - or - why can't "those people" get it together - when the poison in the water, along with the dispersants and fire and skimmers are quite literally, choking the life out of them
And then, White people feel like they're doing us a favor when they actually take the time, help dig us out of the oil, give us a bottle of Dawn and say, hey, go clean up this mess. And if you don't help, we're docking you for it.
All I'm saying is....
Please don't use the parallels of racism and discrimination without actually stopping to challenge and broaden your awareness of how these injustices still affect & sometimes ruin - or end - the lives of every day People of Color.
And please don't forget how so many people are arguing for the return to a more blatant caste system.
Free your mind....
ThatDeborahGirl, you are something else - try to keep your racist views off of this board, your presumptions as to knowing the thoughts of all "White People" and your portrayal of them as some kind of "White Devil" shows that you are the one who needs to "Free Your Mind"
Good luck with that...
I couldn't help but notice that, at the time of your posting, you'd been a member of this site for approximately 43 minutes and some change. I've been a "registered" member for over a year and regular for quite some time before that. So it is your presumption, not mine, in thinking you can just order me to keep my views "off this board". How about you and I leave that up to John or the mods, ok?
There is nothing racist in what I said. You should know, however, that your claim is a comment tactic though. Accusing someone who's pointing out racism, however gently, of being racist and then cantering off on your high horse as if you'd said or done something clever and revolutionary when what you've really done is what you'd probably accuse me of doing - playing the race card.
There are no "White Devils" in my post with the possible exception of the antebellum period Whites I reference in my beginning paragraph. Any further references refer to White people who may or may not be aware of the subtler forms of racism that, while not akin to wearing a sheet or attending a lynching, can still be just as damaging, hurtful and life threatening.
I suggest that you re-read what I wrote, take it in the spirit it was meant and understand that I was only talking about some white people. But of course - that doesn't include you. Feel better now?
So now you can personally print off your proof that you've been exonerated by an Official Black Person, that you are not a racist, please feel free to go back to not thinking about race at all.
thatdeborahgirl
"There is nothing racist in what I said."
Really?
"Likewise, most White people don't think of People of Color as sentient beings who they can and should work with for the betterment of our country and collective future."
So that statement doesn't assign opinions to people based on their race?
I'd like to turn the tables a little. I've just changed a few words in your first post. Why dont you re-read it and tell me if it's ok to call it racist now?
"Black folks poisoned the waters, not with oil, but with slavery, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination, Jim Crow and hundreds of myths and fallacies about Whites, Asians, Latinos, Native Americans, Irish, Jews - and just about anyone else they were pissed at, oh yes, the Gays - can't forget teh Gay - some of which they still perpetuate and believe to this day - all to keep black privilege & superiority firmly in check.
This result of this poison is second class citizenship or outright disavowal of citizenship (as in the case of calling white Katrina victims "refugees"). People of color are seen as only having rights that Black people allow them to have and only in the amounts that black people say they can have them. However liberal your mindset is still the limit - not equality - but merely the amount that your liberalness will allow.
BP is not thinking, "How do I work with "those people"." BP is thinking, "What are we going to do about those people." To BP these people are merely an infestation of insects or rodents that must be dealt with, if not eradicated entirely. Not sentient beings with livelihoods they have destroyed and that BP must make whole. Just a flea to be flicked off BP's ass.
Likewise, most Black people don't think of People of Color as sentient beings who they can and should work with for the betterment of our country and collective future. No, they merely wonder "When is someone going to do something about "those people" - or - why can't "those people" get it together - when the poison in the water, along with the dispersants and fire and skimmers are quite literally, choking the life out of them
And then, Black people feel like they're doing us a favor when they actually take the time, help dig us out of the oil, give us a bottle of Dawn and say, hey, go clean up this mess. And if you don't help, we're docking you for it.
All I'm saying is....
Please don't use the parallels of racism and discrimination without actually stopping to challenge and broaden your awareness of how these injustices still affect & sometimes ruin - or end - the lives of every day People of Color.
And please don't forget how so many people are arguing for the return to a more blatant caste system.
Free your mind..."
So, somehow....inserting "Black People" for "White People" in my post is somehow some grand revelation that makes what I originally said less valid?
I just can't fathom that you seriously think just changing around the skin colors in what I wrote is supposed to reveal something other than the fact that you learned how to use Find & Replace without going the additional step of changing subject verb agreement.
Seriously - this is yet another trite but very often used tactic to deflect, but not deal with, the topic at hand.
So you've been a member for longer than me...aren't you special? Excuse me if my "ordering" of you to keep your racist views off of this board somehow infringed on your sense of entitlement because you have more posts than me. This is probably my whiteness that causes me to dish out orders this way, huh?
And I contest strongly that implying that "most white people" are racist, however subtly, is a "gentle" way of bringing up racism - rather, it is a harsh way of proving that racism still exists...in people like you, for example, who seem to think that racism only goes one way.
In your post, you repeatedly referenced your perceived behavior of a certain race and made generalizations about people based on the color of their skin - that is racism (or "reverse" racism, as some so ignorantly refer to it.)
"And then, White people feel like they're doing us a favor when they actually take the time, help dig us out of the oil, give us a bottle of Dawn and say, hey, go clean up this mess. And if you don't help, we're docking you for it."
That isn't racist? You are practically saying that among so many horrible things unmentioned, white people are responsible for the gulf oil spill, rather than just a bunch of rich, selfish, money grubbing a-holes who happen to be white.
And your repeated assumption that you are the only one on here that thinks about race/racism is hogwash. Just because you happen to be the first to mention an off-topic subject in a board post about the gulf oil spill, doesn't mean that nobody else ever thinks about that off-topic subject - it just means that you think you are something special.
And, likewise, just because because I happen to challenge your posting and cite it for the racist banter that it is (whether intended or not)- does not mean that I, in particular, do not ever think about race at all, as you said.
Sociology/Psychology/Religion are my main point of study, and racism plays a large part in all of those subjects. I do not ignore the racism that still exists, I just don't take such a narrow-minded viewpoint that it is an injustice limited to black people, perpetrated by white people - I recognize various ways that racism affects us all, and realize that there is still far too much racism in the world. So much, in fact, that I don't feel the need to look for racism where none has been exemplified.
I also know the difference between discrimination based on race, and discrimination based on social class (money) when I see it, which would be a more accurate tangent upon which to venture in this case, in my opinion.
And I need not to be "exonerated" by anyone about anything, including racism by an "Official Black Person"...especially not when the exonerating party has shown that they are not the best judge of racism - just as I would not cite a friendship with a death-row inmate to my father-in-law in an attempt to prove I am worth his daughter's hand in marriage.
But you do seem like an intelligent person, with a lot of passion for the mistreated, which is needed in this world. But maybe next time before you accuse people of something as hurtful as racism (even if you imply that they are only "subtly" racist), you take a look at your own tendencies/subtleties regarding the subject.
I look forward to your response.
I call 'em like I see 'em.
Oh for heaven's sake. How do you get "all white people are responsible for the oil spill" out of what I wrote?
What I wrote is a comparison of situations not an accusation. You just immediately saw - Black people, White people and OMG - she's accusing all white people of being responsible for the oil spil.
What I'm saying is - just as BP is giving all of use the run around about really fixing this mess - white folks tend to give black folks the run around about actually working to end racism. They'll do a million things to make it LOOK like they really care when in reality, they don't.
I also felt that in this thread in particular, people were throwing around the words "massa", "slaves" and "serfs". I couldn't help but wonder if the people writing those words, or reading and agreeing with this assessment of BP's behavior, would really see the connection between BP's behavior and every day racism or bigotry.
I find the majority of White people I encounter ( a LOT of White people mind you) to be racist, prejudiced or bigoted in some way. Sorry, but that's my experience.
I not only find it in the white people I know or have met personally, but also in the "mainstream" "American" media I consume. And it's not subtle, it's blatant.
I occasionally find it online, not as much here at C&L, but definitively on HuffPo and other so called "liberal" or "progressive" blogs. Wherever, I find that it's a brand of subtle-yet-still-there racism that definitely doesn't wear a sheet but is still just as determined and blind.
You can choose to ignore it if you wish. You can continue to debate me if you wish. It doesn't change the fact that I read what I read, I felt what I felt and I stand by my original comment as posted.
So I guess if I made this statement:
"Black people are so infatuated with the idea that the white man is trying to keep them down, that they never take the time to try to pick themselves up. They convince themselves that the world is against them so that they have an excuse to make no effort to improve themselves or the world/community surrounding them. They use images of racism from the past to excuse themselves from their responsibilities in the modern world, and as a result, have made themselves second-class citizens; an offense they propose to blame on white people.
When victims of Katrina are referred to as "refugees", they assume that that word is used only to describe the darker-skinned victims, or that only black people were actually victimized by the disaster. Yet another device used to deflect responsibility from their own inability/unwillingness to improve their lives.
They often don't recognize people with light-colored skin as people just like them, who endure many of the same problems and struggles that they do . Rather, they just think, "When are "they" going to stop holding us back?" "When are "those people" going to help us out?"
Although, many may not realize that they are doing this; they just do it out of habit or instinct. They cannot help it. White people are simply viewed as privileged and upper-class, living a life without struggle - or at least not the kind of struggle that black people must endure. They cannot see the truth.
So all I'm saying is...
Stop assuming to know what everyone thinks about you, and focus on your own self-improvement - you might find there is much work to be done."
----
Would that not smell of racism?
Yeah, there may be some truth in some of those words. But all-in-all, it is a blanket statement, insinuating that all black people act/think this way, and it is largely based on generalizations that aren't fair to many black people.
The same is what took place in your first post. You made it seem like what happens in certain situations to certain people is the everyday norm, and that it is that way everywhere - when it is truly not the case.
You can keep saying that we are all choosing to ignore racism, but I never denied that racism still exists - nobody on this board did. Actually, I repeatedly stated that I am well aware of the racism that goes on in our world. I also pointed out that bigotry comes in all shapes, sizes, and colors - and that making unflattering (and even insulting) remarks as a blanket statement about a group of people based on the color of their skin is a form of this bigotry.
And I did find it amusing that you felt the need to point out that you have encountered "A LOT" of white people...that gave me a good chuckle.
But you also said that your experiences have been mostly negative, because most of them have been bigoted in some way. For that I am sorry, I hope you find yourself surrounded by more accepting and open-minded people in the future. Whether you choose to believe it or not, they are out there. And I imagine they aren't very far away.
But in saying this, you leave the impression that the non-white people you have encountered do not exhibit any form of bigotry, which I find very hard to believe. Racism is present in all cultures and communities and it is not limited to white-on-black.
And assuming that white folks don't actually care about ending racism is just asinine. How can you claim to know that white people are trying hard to make it look like they want to end racism, but that they actually don't want to?
It seems like you are looking to create issues where there may be none, and that is taking away from the effort you could be making toward solving real problems.
Just as you would probably read my hypothetical statement above and think "Man, this guy needs to open his mind and stop being so prejudiced and judgmental!" - such is what I thought in reading you first post, because it reeked of the same type of racism that you were attempting to condemn.
And if you were somehow offended because some people on here made references to slavery and used terms like "massa", then you can choose to be offended by that, but I think you jump to conclusions when you assume that those who made those references have not taken the time to consider the racism and bigotry, in all forms, that still exists in today's world. I also do not think that using those terms is making light of slavery either; I actually think it is simply using the much understood and recognized angst caused by slavery as a way of expressing a certain person's feelings of helplessness, frustration and oppression over the current tragedy in the gulf.
If it makes you feel better to think that I don't understand that racism still exists, then go ahead and tell yourself that. You are certainly making the effort here to make it seem like I am ignoring it - but you are incorrect and unjustified in doing so.
Well I'm glad I gave you a good laugh.
You finally get that you completely misread my first post but then you insist that it was racist.
If it makes you feel better to believe that you can misunderstand what I wrote and STILL school me on what I actually said versus what I mean, then more power to you.
I give up.
Quote:
"If it makes you feel better to believe that you can misunderstand what I wrote and STILL school me on what I actually said versus what I mean, then more power to you."...
...it is interesting that you repeatedly try to convince everyone that you know the true feelings and intentions of white people, despite them saying things to the contrary, and then seem to get offended when you feel I have done the same thing to you.
And I'd like to know how you think that I "finally get" that I misread your first post...I do not believe that I misread it, nor did I state that I believe that. I think I read it exactly as it was meant.
Now, if you are admitting that you communicated very poorly the point you were attempting to make, then I can understand.
And if you do actually "give up", then I feel that is a shame because I was actually enjoying our conversation, despite our apparent differences of opinion and/or misunderstanding of each others views.
If you read this and choose not to respond, that is your right (obviously), but you should know that despite our differences here, I wish you well and have no hard feelings toward you.
I enjoy debate for the purpose of learning about the thoughts and perceptions of others. It's too bad we never came to some kind of an an understanding.
I have only recently discovered this website and plan on visiting frequently; and if you are a board regular (as you implied in your response) then we may bump into each other sometime soon - which, believe it or not, I look forward to.
Seems like the fishing industry needs a doctor or two in their pocket handing out doctor's excuses to fisherman that are told to work and clean up B P toxic crap or be penalized.
Just more evidence that we live under a Oligarchy.
Big Banks
Wall Street
Insurance Companies
Military Industrial Complex
Big Oil
These are the people that run the U.S. When are we going to wise up and say enough is enough.
Cleaning shit off the beach is not an "alternative employment or business" for a fisherman or anybody else. Alternative employment or businesses are those for which one's resources and or skills can be reasonably adjusted to the circumstances. For instance, a fisherman might be able to fish in different waters. It may be reasonable for a fisherman to change his fishing habits, but it is completely unreasonable for a fisherman to be expected to clean shit off the beach.
BP is selectively taking clauses out of context in order to commit a massive fraud against the people they've already harmed.
Not one cent of the claims should be offset by any of the work being done for BP by the people of the Gulf. In fact, because BP has committed this massive fraud, additional claims should be made against BP for negotiating labor under false pretenses.
Further, criminal charges should immediately be brought against the BP lawyers who perpetrated this fraud. Now.
This is an emergency. Somebody must put these BP lawyers in jail. Right fucking now.
(repost)
What about this,
Hazardous materials training?
Have they had the opportunity to get the proper training to deal with hazardous materials?
Or how about mental issues?
Such as psychiatrists, and also hospitals, for the families involved?
They are dealing with things like stress,
and stress kills..examples, heart attacks, strokes, like this?
Just a few things to really think about because they need tons of help, even food by the red cross, have they shown up yet?
Good for the PR, or public relations to have trucks lined up with canned goods to feed the people, instead of commercials?
Come on people,
get them to work!
“This oil spill was no accident, just another example of socialized risk and privatized profits.
http://news.infoshop.org/article.php?story=20...
How can I get in touch with Adam dillon?”
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