Glenn Beck Says Jump, They Say 'How High?' Angry Mob at Tampa Healthcare Forum as Wingnuts Go Wild
By Susie Madrak Friday Aug 07, 2009 5:00amAh yes, the Glenn Beck citizen patriots! They turned out in force last night to disrupt yet another town hall meeting on health care reform. I wonder when the union members start showing up? (Read Bill Mann's Four Creative Ways to Deal with Right-Wing Rent-a-Mobs. Great ideas!)
From the St. Pete Times, one account:
TAMPA – Bitter divisions over reforming America's health care system exploded Thursday night in Tampa amid cat calls, jeering and shoving at a town hall meeting.
"Tyranny! Tyranny! Tyranny!" dozens of people shouted as U.S. Rep. Kathy Castor struggled to talk about health insurance reforms under consideration in Washington, D.C.
"There is more consensus than there is disagreement when you get right down to it," Castor offered, immediately drowned out by groans and boos.
She pressed on, mostly unheard among the screams from the audience of more than 200.
"Tell the truth! Tell the truth!"
"Read the bill!"
"Forty-million illegals! Forty million illegals!"
The spectacle at the Children's Board in Ybor City sounded more like a wrestling cage match than a panel discussion on national policy, and it was just the latest example of a health care meeting disrupted by livid protesters. Similar scenes are likely to be repeated across the country as lawmakers head back to their home districts for the summer recess.
Thursday's forum/near riot was sponsored by state Rep. Betty Reed, D-Tampa, and the Service Employees International Union, who apparently had hoped to hold something of a pep rally for President Obama's health care reform proposal.
Instead, hundreds of vocal critics turned out, many of them saying they had been spurred on through the Tampa 912 activist group promoted by conservative radio and television personality Glenn Beck. Others had received e-mails from the Hillsborough Republican party that urged people to speak out against the plan and offered talking points to challenge supporters.
An overflow crowd of critics was left waiting outside the building – and in some cases pounding on the meeting room doors – while health care reform activists complained that Democrats and union members were guided into the room for prime seats.
"They can't even run a meeting, and they want to run health care?," scoffed Kevin Grant, a Tampa printing business owner, standing near someone wielding a "Shame on you America. You sold your soul to the Devil" sign.
From the Tampa Tribune:
The problems began when a crowd of around 500, many of them recruited to attend by interest groups both for and against the proposal, sought to enter the meeting room. The room, in the offices of the Hillsborough County Children's Board on East Palm Avenue, has a capacity of only about 250.
Several hundred people, mostly opponents, wound up outside or packing a hallway leading into the meeting room. Some scuffled with members of the sponsoring groups who manned the doorway.
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These mindless lemming and their dog whistle politics.
Re-education camp for all of them!
RE-education camp?
Right you are . . .
No re - as they would have had to educate to re-educate.
I stand corrected.
You can educate the ignorant... stupidity is incurable.
it's really sad, more than anything for the left. Sure, this nonsense is lead by the private interests making a profit off of the system, which is fascistic as hell. However, many working class people are active in this, not ALL of these people are lobbyists, not all are members of right wing think tanks and the like, and WHAT are they defending? The most expensive and inefficient health care system in the world. They have no real argument, they're defending a horrible system that the vast majority want to change and where the hell is the left? Are they out, getting off their ass, and doing something? Are they raising hell? Some, they get arrested in small numbers and people e mail someone in support of them, maybe they send some angry e mails or write letters to representatives that they'll never read.
I've been saying this for too long, I've been active with the same group of people for too long: get of your ass and do something (don't just make a phone call or e mail someone), raise hell yourself and make your voice heard! These right wingers are dupes and paid hacks, but at least they're THERE, they're making their presense felt. The left has the majority of the country with them and how many of the ideological and political left is on the streets, organizing? How many here threatening to vote for someone else, or to write an e mail to someone, will make excuses to do no more?
Nothing is being accomplished of any positive note.
Making your voice heard is fine at a protest, but there comes a time when you have to discuss the issue in order to make your argument in a cogent manner.
Just making your voice heard is part of the American right to dissent. I get it.
That gets the attention of the lawmakers.
But then when you have the opportunity to actually engage in substantive dialogue and you just continue to bellow in your bullhorn, you lose all credibility. You simply become a protestor for the sake of protesting.
The dialogue has to elevate at some point. If not, you will turn around after a bill has passed and you got nothing that you wanted and say, "What???!!! Nobody listened to us!"
Well, duh.
Send the angry mob to the streets. I'm all for it.
Send your best diplomats to the meeting room.
If you want to make a difference, strategic strikes are for the streets. Tactical attacks are for the meeting room.
Please, do you know where I can sign up to be a paid hack?
Bush lackey, FL Sen. Mel Martinez is resigning!
Wonder what scandel he's trying to avoid?
Mel Martinez won his Senate seat in '04 by running an exceedingly dirty campaign, (AKA, a typical Republican campaign), against Kathy Castor's mother, Betty Castor, complete with push polls and acissations of Castor 'pallin around' with terrorists.
He got in on Bush's coattails. Now, he's pullin a Palin and quitting early.
Hmmmm, what scandel is he trying to pre-empt?
Good riddance to baaaad rubbish!
What scandal indeed, lol!!!
He's either yet one more adulterous repuke, or he's neck deep in some kinda corruption. Or both!
Dog whistle for assassination?
Maybe, maybe not...but I think becky may have stepped WAAAAY over the line with this little comment...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/glen...
Compare these health care meetings to the carefully controlled and screened meetings that Bush and Cheney had. The Republicans are taking advantage of the openness and bipartisanship that Obama is trying for. When do we decide that's enough, and just start legislating with our majority? I think by now we all know that there will be no bipartisanship.
That's a good question, since the main obstacle to it seems to be Obama himself.
You know it. I know it. The Republicans know it. The question is does Obama know it.
to act on it yet...I wonder what he's waiting for?
Were I in his shoes...I'd be ramming progressive legislation down the the throats of the GOP like there's no tomorrow.
Fuck the GOP!
They should send Sgt. Crowley to Tampa to see real disorderly conduct...!!!
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/video/videoplaye...
Don't forget, these are the Flarduh assclowns who sellected George Bush the Retarded Murdering Thief for President and shoved his bizarro "christian" values on us, like starving Katrina victims and killing pregnant women in Iraq.
FOX has no cred. The rioters have NO cred.
But I like biparties.
just cannot seem to get it through their heads that these angry people are perpetually in that state and will never be mollified with anything. It is time to dismiss them and do what they were elected to do. Pass a good bill and they will be re-elected in
a year with little to no controversy. Don't pass anything and this spectacle will become the norm.
These fascists, hide behind the cross, and they hind behind the flag.
And they truly disgust me. Where is the FBI? Where is the NSA? Where is the goddamn Homeland Security? These people are subverting our Constitution! Subverting our Democracy!
We can't reason with the unreasonable.
We must confront them in the only manner they understand...with a closed fist.
If this comment gets me banned so be it...but this country, OUR COUNTRY is teetering on the edge of chaos, chaos funded by fascist corporations.
If we don't stand up and aggressively defend our beliefs NOW, we may not have another opportunity.
Are we gonna sit on our fucking asses while these fascists try to drive the final nail in Democracies coffin.
Damned if I will!
God Bless America.
Yeah, lets round up all the people that disagree with your point of view. How dare those fascists voice an opinion that is different from yours. HOW DARE THEY. Where is our damned Secret Police when you need them? Those idiots need to do a better job of getting the general populace to fall in line. God Bless America. LOL!
Yeah, the people that are not happy with the proposed healthcare changes are being idiots but if you confront idiocy with idiocy you will get no where.
Were these people not shilling for fascist corporations, I would not be as angry as I am, I may disagree with their position, but not their right to speak up...but most of these people are NOT, I repeat NOT protesting for themselves as US citizens, they are protesting and shutting down debate on behalf of the truly fascist "healthcare" industry!!! And THAT, Sir or Madam, is wholly un-American, and I won't stand for it!
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_NUZ_fM-TQKQ/SBoKF0f...
Who the hell is that?
and while these people have a right to speak up, and they are being riled up by special interests, they are in fact, perpetually angry people who have taken the bait offered by the broadcast hate mongers that the actions they are taking is all that is left to save the
America they love and are losing.
I am not sure, if you were to ask them what, specifically, has changed, they could answer.
I don't think they could give a cogent answer...they'd just repeat the rw talking points that have been pounded into their skulls.
Washington madam, suicide or murder?
ooookaaaay
They have the right to be stupid and easily manipulated by corporations.
In case ya hadn't noticed. These teabaggers/birthers assholes don't want to debate, they are attempting to stop healthy democratic debate on an issue that is VERY important to ALL Americans.
What I'm saying is, they're showing up to these town halls with a single purpose in mind, keep the health care industry fat and happy.
They don't want to debate, they don't want to discuss. They only want to disrupt.
GOT IT?
there are honest to God rules of acceptable behavior in a
civil society. and one of them states quite clearly that
one is not allowed to incite others to riot. Now isn't that
what your beloved beck,rushbo et al, are doing?
fine tho it may be, there is a line between free speech and this.
why aren't your brethern capable of sitting down, listening and
then disagreeing in an intelligent, specific way to the things they
find objectionable?
or would you rather have the bush style meetings where only
the like minded were allowed to attend? the protestors kept
blocks away..............that didn't bother you then did it?
but the truth be told - its not about health insurance reform
is it? its that uppity scary n....black man... in the white house, its those
awful smarty pants black kids running around, and that mexican
on the supreme court... life just isn't all white and how you
remember feeling all superior anymore.............thank God the
rest of us have moved on.....it's really not so bad here on the
other side of ignorant............
I'm no rightwinger!
And I agree with everything in your post.
We know you better than that lNm.
C'mon admit it, you have life size pictures of Limbaugh and Coulter on the walls. With autographed pictures of Malkin and Beck too.:)
Have a nice day lNm. :)
and at night I defrock, and spin around looking at all them whilst fondling my junk, until I become dizzy and fall down, hitting my temple on the corner of my glass coffee table...oh wait...TMI?
Wow. Do you also have a lot of candles around these pictures?
in old whiskey bottles.
and a goat skull too...bwaaahahahahahahaaaaa!
Hot Damn, I knew yuuz wuz one o them.
Do you have a velvet portrait of Hannity too?
:)
...It's true these rent a mobs are bullshit! I would not mind getting into a brawl with these assholes and yes, it would look bad for both sides but the right has absolutely no sense of decency. If I were setting up the town hall meetings I would (if I had the cash) hire a boat load of security and instruct them that this will be a civil public discussion. Anyone or group who doesn't allow people to speak by screaming and yelling or other disruptions will be escorted out of the site immediately. And do it. These bastards should not be winning on the front of obstructionism. The public deserves a real debate. If you don't like it fine, talk about it. Screaming, yelling and otherwise shutting down a forum through strong arm tactics has to crushed. Fuck you right wing thugs.
a Free Speech Zone (tm) be created out in the carpark?
If an individual wants to exercise their right to free speech loudly, obnoxiously & disruptively they can be moved to the FSZ.
Niiice & Bush-like.
Join the Boycott of Glenn Beck which has resulted now in 3 large corporations dropping ads on this Fox show of hate.
PLEASE PASS ON.
-Beck has called our sitting president a racist.
-He has joked about poisoning the speaker of the house Nancy Pelosi.
-He was the incitement force behind the looney PA mother of 3 just arrested with weapons casing out a US military base
- Beck's 912 group was cited by several FL news reports for causing the caustic situation at the FL townhall meeting which led to violence.
Is this the America a sponsor believes in?
Will it take one of Beck's fans to kill in cold blood for us to finally care enough?
sedition.
already killed in cold blood?
That would be the guy who shot up a gym and then himself.
The news has been careful not to mention he personal beliefs, but it's leaking out.
Kind of like his victims.
What's the latest with that story? So far, all I've heard is that he posted on some militia-type site years ago. Not too much in the way of specifics. (i.e. Beck)
It looks like I mistook two different cases:
http://www.alternet.org/rights/135592/did_par...
Right=wingers are trying to claim the gym killer was an Obama supporter and the "left-wing media," is ignoring that.
or the biproduct of the OHannistanian Limbeck Monster.
conservative influenced corporate drone, they pushed and overworked his warped mind until he snapped.
He was a me me me cubical warrior, selfish to the point of projecting his flaws to everybody he met, no wonder women avoided him.
Notice his victims were young carefree girls, the opposite of what he was.
he could have ended up with Jennifer Anniston.
Figures...
whacko violence could be attributed to right wing broadcasting. I thought this guy just reacted to being told he had low self esteem by some better educated women.
but I did not know at that time he was a rightwinger, or a beck fan...aka a becky.
on my adoration for Eric Clapton. He is half Canadian you know. Don't know if his English mum has pulled her teeth out yet due to poor health care in the UK.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-gTcF6K4Wk
It was neither Beck nor Clapton.
That George Harrison song was written with Clapton and was about his love for chocolates! OK, I guess the reference was a tad obscure.
Guess my adoration is not complete.
Now go and flagellate yourself, until your adoration IS complete!
Pittsburgh Cop Killer Richard Poplawski Beck Fan - posting a link to Stormfront of a YouTube video featuring talk show host Glenn Beck talking about FEMA camps....
Can you post the link?
I saw very early this morning that Air America had a link....have to look that up.
the sociopath who just shot up that gym full of woman also had
many rants about politics on his blog, but the msm have only focused
on the female rejection meme.
he acted before Obamatrons came and took away constitutionally allowed guns and his God given right to requited opposite sex love.
I thought it would be a cool idea to get 3 or 4 people with t-shirts and sit in the front row. Wear them under another shirt until it's time. When these thugs start yelling in the back of the room, take off the top shirt and stand up. Standing next to each other the shirts say "WE...Support...Health...Care...Reform" While the back of the shirts pointing toward the Astroturfers "Shut...The...Fuck...Up...Asshole!"
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/fasc_notus_...
They are pissed off because they were shut out of the event. Of course the people being shut out are going to be angry.
that's reason to get violent, are you?
The only person that seems to be advocating violence here is you.
Does this look familiar?
We must confront them in the only manner they understand...with a closed fist.
Yeah, it should, cuz you posted it up above.
in case ya hadn't noticed.
I'm sick of the fuckin crybaby republicans holding this country back with their fuckin archaic beliefs.
It's time this nation moved forward.
If they're standing in the way...mow them down I say.
I use the expresseion mailed fist all the time
And I don't even own chain mail
Because I can't afford the postage.
Because they ran out of room.
The meeting room can only hold so many people...
But why wasn't video shot of what happened IN the meeting? Watching a bunch of upset people complaining about how they are left out isn't at all informative. Especially when you point at them and say, look, here is an example of how crazy the "other side" is. Of course they are a little crazy, they came down to listen/talk to their rep about healthcare and they were basically shut out.
Do you understand that the 'outrage' of the people claiming they are there to engage in public discourse with their representative is manufactured and at the behest of rabble-rousers like Beck?
You ask, "Why was nothing shot of the inside of the meeting?"
How would you know? Seriously. I work in news, so I have a better idea of what gets shot and what doesn't. That you didn't SEE anything of the meeting or the representative's remarks does not mean it was not shot.
It means that the very people you think we should be allowing into the room, the folks shouting stuff like 'Tyrrany!' would be doing the exact same thing inside - and you STILL would not hear substantive remarks from the representative. You'd hear their response to the shouts/protests.
(Now you have an idea of why I dislike Code Pink's antics in general - it becomes the story instead of anything of substance.)
How would you know? ... That you didn't SEE anything of the meeting or the representative's remarks does not mean it was not shot.
Thanks, THAT is my point. If there WAS footage from inside then THAT should have been posted. This blog post, as it stands, is showing footage of people angry about being left out of the process and then some how blaming them for being angry. Of course they are angry. If you were shut out of a public debate you'd probably be upset too.
I doubt they're angry that they were 'left out of the process'. More likely they were angry because they thought they wouldn't get the chance to be inside screaming and disrupting their Rep and
their chance to be on National TV. They didn't want to 'debate' .....they only know disrupt.
So, they stood outside and acted like brats and videoed themselves.
Why would C&L have access to news footage outside that which is either broadcast or posted on the station/network's own websites?
You are justifying the anger of the protesters, then wondering why all anyone shows is angry protesters.
Maybe we need to worry about the 'mainstream audience' more than the 'mainstream media.'
... that 'rabid crowds are only exercising their right to free speech and deserve to be let inside' is the kind of false equivalence promoted by Rush Limbaugh.
Why are you insisting that people who are shouting and disruptive get to have their say, and not the other way around - that the people who are respectful and polite get to have their voices heard?
Perhaps you can point out where I'm insisting that shouting and disruptive people should be let into a townhall debate?
Am I misinterpreting 'you'd be angry, too, if you got shut out'?
Do you understand that these people did not come to participate in civil debate? That their anger is not even part of the debate, not a response to a crowded event, but a tactic specifically embraced to shout down and drown out opposing points of view?
Of course, every time I ask that question, all I get is, "Waaaaah! Well, wouldn't you be upset if you got shut out of a debate?!?!?!"
they came down to listen/talk to their rep about healthcare and they were basically shut out.
WTF? Do you have video of these teabaggers listening or talking (not screaming or yelling) to the speakers? I didn't think so.
Damn those socialistic fire codes with their maximum occupancy rules.
where is the video
... imagine that you are being deliberately obtuse.
The video was not shown because the story was derailed by a bunch of sign-waving punks. Insofar as the conservative boogeyman of the 'mainstream media' has created an environment where disruptive behavior is considered just as legitimate as civil discourse, it is a self-inflicted wound.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He82NBjJqf8
A similar event happened in south St. Louis County last night:
http://www.fox2now.com/ktvi-health-care-town-...
I find it very interesting that the Fox reporter, I repeat, "Fox" reporter says this:
"In recent weeks, town hall forums like this have been overtaken by opposition groups who have heckled and mocked supporters of the President's health care reform plan including Congressman Carnahan."
"Overtaken"????
"Heckled and mocked supporters"?????
These don't sound like civil, Democratically run events if they are "overtaken" by mobs who "heckle and mock" supporters of the plan.
To be honest, I don't even care if these are spontaneous, grassroots mobs.....they are using fascist tactics; they are taking their protests from the Glenn Beck playbook--how many times has Beck talked about 'tyranny'???; and they make their own posters from Glenn Beck's and Rush Limpball's playbook. Both have compared Obama and the Democrats to Hitler and nazis. In the video in the link to the St. Louis event, right about the 02:09 mark, someone is holding a sign that says "Same Health Care Plan"; it has a picture of Obama right next to a picture of Hitler. THIS IS HATE. Where do these idiots get this from? They get it from the likes of Beck and Limbaugh, the latter idiot having just yesterday went on and on with a hate-filled rant comparing Pelosi, Obama, and the Democrats to Hitler and the nazis.
What was particularly egregious about the teabagging protesters at the St. Louis event is that this event was planned months ago. Its topic was NOT Obama's health care plan; the topic was Medicaid and Medicare issues for seniors. Speakers from groups like the AARP were lined up, but they were heckled.
These right wing groups DID organize mob protests; they publish town hall meetings, apparently without notifying anyone what the agenda is, and the mobs go with their own agenda to disrupt.
Yes, there are people with valid concerns. However, these teabaggers are like a cancer, infiltrating what otherwise would be a good body of rational, sane, civil citizens who want to have a discussion. Unfortunately, because these teabaggers were told to scatter around the audience, you cannot tell the cancerous cells from the good ones.
Because they aimed to be disruptive. They were angry because they failed to be disruptive, not because they didn't get a chance to participate in the democratic process.
The way things are going, I expect someone will write a book about how Obama got crushed by the "irrelevant" Republicans.
I hope he's paying attention. So far, his timid followership shows few signs of delivering the kind of health care reform we desperately need and which he at least pretended he wanted. (In fact, he gave up any chance of that when he took single payer off the table during the campaign.)
I also think calling these people "rent-a-mobs" seriously misreads the anger and energy of average wingers, and risks misunderstanding what is happening and what's at stake.
If the sentiments in this country are really in favor of sweeping health care reform, then the question is "Can we (the Left) turn out crowds that will dominate events by sheer numbers?" I think the answer is no, and Krugman touches on the reason why in his latest column when he writes:
Obama has badly mishandled health care reform. He's traded away a lot without getting anything comparable in return. Now, we learn he's made an ironclad deal with the Big Pharma not to allow the government to use its full power to bargain for lower drug prices. Thanks, George Bush.
Somewhere along the way Obama over-learned the lessons of the Clintons' health care failure. In what has to be a worst case scenario, he's left the design of legislation to people who are beholden to the health care industry and have no commitment to meaningful reform; he's made it clear that apart from the deficit issue there is nothing that isn't negotiable; and he has left many of the people who worked hardest for his election feeling that he is more concerned about the private health insurance companies' survival than he is about insuring all Americans.
Unless Obama does something big, very soon, I fear we're going to see either a replay of 1993-94, or the passage of a bullshit bill accompanied by lofty presidential rhetoric and much Inside the Beltway backslapping (especially among the private insurers and drug companies).
and by kinda, I really mean ALOT, like concern troll bullshit.
...of some people on the Left who understand the need for real health care reform, watched it get botched in the nineties, and don't want to see it happen again. (I'm sure you would have been squeaking "concern troll, concern troll" back then too. Unfortunately, calling people concern trolls adds nothing useful to any discussion, and it's a shame if that's all you have to offer.
I guess Krugman is a concern troll to. In fact, I'll bet anyone who doesn't agree with you is a concern troll...or just a troll.
So, instead of being a child and calling names, why not explain specifically what you disagree with in my comment. We could discuss it, or you can pretend that you are the arbiter of legitimate liberal or progressive values...and I'll ignore you.
"squeaking concern troll, concern troll" back in the 90's...as it wasn't part of the lexicon...Ok...all smartassiness on my part aside.
You're right. I'm just riled up this mornin and seeing red.
I'm not thinkin clearly, and the fuckin teabaggers just make me want to break things.
error and show them weakness!!!! I bet you wake up every morning apologizing to imaginary victims of America's greatness. I would call you a name based on sexual orientation bias that starts with an "f" but I believe in some English speaking lands the word also means cigarette so I just may go have one myself.
A cigarette sounds like a fine idea!
http://bztv.typepad.com/instanthistory/images...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKFBCMU9XRE
Otherwise, you'll end up with high blood pressure, heart disease, and no health insurance. Then, the Wingers will have won.
Believe me, I'm really angry at the Wingers, but I've been around long enough to know the answer lies with our side getting something worthwhile done. That's beating the Wingers.
For us, winning at this point means a strong public option and some serious patient safeguards and private insurance guidelines and restrictions. For Obama, winning could mean as little as getting legislation passed -- any legislation. That's the difference between citizens and politicians. Things that are victories for them can actually make our lives worse. We've got to get Obama to see that he doesn't win if he doesn't help us.
If you're mad at the Wingers, yell at them, not me. I'm (almost certainly) on your side.
angry this morning...I'll cool down soon enough.
Apologies.
...and shown weakness. Now is the time to go for the kill.
Except...I'd rather gratefully accept your apology, commend you for offering it, and hope you have reason to be less angry sooner rather than later.
thank ya!
hey can you provide a link that clearly/absolutely says that obama made an ironclad deal with the big pharma?
My statement wasn't meant to be proof that there is such an agreement. I probably should have used the word "hear" instead of "learn," since these stories often change over time.
However:
Drug Deal
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/06/dem-...
you have harsh words about obama regarding health care reform. i'm not sure you can be so sure. there's plenty of negative linguistic framing on all demographic levels. bash with caution.
i really don't know if obama for sure made a deal with pharma (80 billion over 10 yrs.). certain members of congress/special interests are very good at framing. in all due respect i believe some of your comments aren't clearly founded and/or premature.
...everyone to agree with me. For my part, I believe my statements are currently well-founded and I sincerely hope that my judgment changes over time.
I have never supported Obama's approach to health care reform, beginning with his taking single payer off the table during the campaign. First, that automatically moved the discussion framework well to the right -- completely unnecessarily in my view -- and exposed the public option as the "far left" position from which to begin negotiating.
Second, even if Obama personally didn't favor a single payer system, a reform of this magnitude should have initially included discussion of every reasonable and viable option. Numerous other countries have proved the viability of single payer systems, so I take that as a given. Political viability is another thing, but no one ever got anything by refusing to consider it. It would have required a president willing to risk a lot, if not everything, to get something the country desperately needs. That kind of boldness isn't Obama's style. I accept that, but I don't admire it. Obama claimed that if we were starting from scratch then he would (probably?) favor a single payer system. I think this shows a profound lack of vision on Obama's part -- I know I'm not alone in believing that starting from scratch is exactly what we need to do.
Further, Obama retained the two of the worst aspects of our current system -- wasteful, abusive private insurance companies and employer-based insurance. Anyone who thinks that private insurance companies are going to willingly conform to the kinds of restrictions that must be put on them to rein in their abuse is, I believe, naive.
With all that disagreement, it should be clear that I was never a fan of either his policy preferences or strategy.
Since then, he has made numerous other moves that I consider blunders. For example, publicly stating that he would prefer 85% of a great bill achieved with bipartisanship to 100% accomplished with a party line vote is one of the dumbest things I've ever heard a politician utter (excluding Bush, whose every statement would be a contender). First of all, who believes the Republicans want to help Obama get credit for reforming health care? I hope no one. Second, by announcing you're willing to bargain away 15% of what you want to people who don't want you to get anything, is to virtually guarantee that the best 15% of the bill is what will go -- e.g., the public option and restrictions on private insurers. In the end, no matter what he bargains away, he's unlikely to get more than a few Republican votes -- the usual suspects, so to speak -- but more likely he would bargain things away and then the Republicans would still refuse to support the bill.
There is more, but that's more than enough for now. Perhaps, things will work out in the long run, but if they do it will be like no legislation I've ever seen before.
Note: I think all of my criticisms are based on things that Obama has actually said or done -- not on inferences on my part or accusations from others.
expect "everyone" to agree with me. that's not my motive. this may be the largest political battle in more than 70 years. the health care insurance industry and others ie.chamber of commerce were ready for this fight. this may be more of a political war than the economic necessity of health care reform. it appears a single payer system would be the most advantagous that probably is true but it wasn't going to happen.
the health care industry and other symbiotic special interests weren't going to let it happen. the "compromise" is a competitive public option. i'm not sure i like it either. the health care insurance is a strong global monopoly. the u.s. may be the last haven to charge high prices for drugs since all the othe rmajor countries of the world have competitive bidding in their health care system. check this out not talked about much.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/world/asia/...
It certainly wasn't going to happen after the president -- the person best positioned to push it -- took it off the table. There is far too much acceptance in this country of failure without trying. One reason for that, I think, is that not trying is not seen as failure, whereas to try and then fail, isn't seen as courageous, but rather as foolish or a waste of time.
I see not trying as the biggest failure of all. Saying the health care industry wasn't going to let it happen is simply giving up without trying. The reason our elected officials are free to ignore the will of the majority of Americans is because there is no accountability in politics. When the election rolls around, voters on both the left and right will almost always vote for their party's candidate -- no matter how corrupt or incompetent. Ninety thousand in cash in his freezer and William Jefferson still received almost 47% of the vote in a narrow defeat. He should never have been the Democratic nominee and the people who supported him or other obviously corrupt or incompetent politicians do significant damage to our country and political system by not unanimously repudiating such people. My guess is that ignorance (the American national past time) was probably the primary cause of this travesty.
Even if a single payer system had not won the day this year, it would have been healthy for the country to have had a national discussion about its merits. Instead, what we get is a lot of disinformation and outright lies that never get adequate refutation (because single payer isn't on the table anyway). The public option is somehow morphed into single payer, which would be more difficult to do if the two were separate plans being openly discussed. The ignorance of the American people about what already exists -- apparently lots of the opponents of any and all government run health care systems are currently on Medicare -- and what is possible (e.g., socialized medicine, privately run universal systems, government run single payer, private insurance plus public insurance option) is paralyzing. We can't have an intelligent discussion/debate unless people are better informed, and no one ever got better informed by not discussing things that have been arbitrarily removed from consideration.
China moving toward universal care, while Americans bicker about euthanizing the elderly. Is this country pathetic or what?
"There is more consensus than there is disagreement when you get right down to it."
That's the point that needs to be hammered here. All these shrieking children engaging in histrionics at these events are the minority, no matter how much their failed-disc-jockey hero wants to believe otherwise. Remind them of the popular vote from 2008, remind them of the 2006 election results time and time again. Their attempt at health care has been attempted and failed miserably. My sincerest apologies to the birthers, bigots, and out-and-out boobs who are falling for Glenn Beck's spiel, but the truth is, we surround YOU.
That may be true, but support for health care reform does appear to be dwindling and "these shrieking children" can be very effective in turning the tide.
It may be true that most Americans favor health care reform. But what is more true is that most Americans are ill-informed and can be scared into voting against their own best interests.
Obama has bungled his end of the deal. He needs to take a stand for something specific that a real majority of Americans can support and then make the case for it every day until it either passes or fails. He needs to stand up to Congress -- especially the Democrats in the Senate -- and show some real leadership.
So far, he hasn't done anything but speak generally about aspects of a bill that doesn't exist and show a willingness to bargain away key features of reform and important cost saving measures.
or is that just our MSM reporting. Most of the media has a biased opinion and I have a hard time believing them.
...is not encouraging. I completely ignore any poll done by Rasmussen -- they have a definite Right Wing bias.
But polling is fluid and it isn't surprising if support in waning. After all, the Wingers are filling the ether with lies about what the "Obama Plan" is (Note: there is NO Obama Plan) and Americans are easily manipulated and scared.
On the other side, there is no plan to rally behind, because there is no plan. But there is a lot of disagreement about the plans that are in the works and some of them deserve no support at all from the Left.
If Max Baucus' plan is THE Democratic Plan, then I don't support it and support has truly fallen (by one citizen -- me). I'll be damned if I'm going to support a plan that benefits private insurance companies at the expense of private citizens.
The onus is on the president to present the public with a clearer idea of how a reformed health care system would work and of what the most vocal critics of such a system--i.e. pharmaceutical companies and their pet congressmen--stand to lose with such a system. Obama needs to do more in framing the debate here, specifically with what he will and will not approve of in a health care reform bill.
I posted this on the Dallas Morning News Religion website. Their question was: Is Health Care a Moral Imperative?
Posted by ysbaddaden @ 2:08 PM Thu, Aug 06, 2009
Matthew 25:37-45.
Ezekiel 16:49.
)O(
Posted by ysbaddaden @ 2:20 PM Thu, Aug 06, 2009
James 2:1-8.
)O(
Posted by ysbaddaden @ 2:41 PM Thu, Aug 06, 2009
And before people say that the Bible is about personal charity and not governmental:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
The government IS the people.
Posted by ysbaddaden @ 2:45 PM Thu, Aug 06, 2009
Galatians 6:2.
)O(
And one commenter responded:
Posted by Fred @ 7:30 PM Thu, Aug 06, 2009
ysbaddaden-
Truly spoken like one on a government dole.
Why don't you go on down to Gal 6:5?
2 Thessalonians 3:10 makes no mention of a person who is not able to work because of physical limitations.
You might even try Jas 2:10 out when you get through polishing your halo.
And you presume to sit in judgement of me as though I have no regard for people who are less fortunate than I? Who do you suppose instilled that right upon you? It would be hard for me to imagine a harsher statement made by someone who thinks themselves informed, and who is speaking totally in a vacuum, and totally out of ignorance. And your corollary wreaks of arrogance, bordering on stupidity.
I am actually surprised at myself for even responding to your gibberish.
__________________________________________________________________
I looked up his citation and they either had little or no bearing on the original question, or were shifting the subject.
(He don't know me very well, do he?)
"How dare you quote scripture to ME!"
YSB, the Lord will strike thee down....how dare you use the bible to justify your sick and perverted thinking?
Funny how no one picked up on my glyph.
your gibberish." Don 't bait me with your false dichotomy.
We'll get to your glyph after you admit the gibberish.
Are the religious nuts in Texas smart enough to even question it?
cars.
I just looked at that site, YSB. That Fred is quite the guy, ain't he? Sounds like he's just like Job the capitalist!
Advertisers Drop Glenn Beck
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/141816/adv...
More of this!
I just realized that I did sign that petition a few days or so ago.
Let's get others to do so as well!
The only motivation in a capitalist society is money.
Hit these assclowns where it hurts.
Cut your consumption (puleeease concern trolls...don't start bsing me about "the economy", most of what we spend gets shipped overseas), hurt the advertisers you hurt the wingnut pundits.
A spanking?
And more of THIS too!
https://pol.moveon.org/donate/august.html?id=...
I see these people as "groupies" for Glenn Beck. They question nothing but what Beck tells them to question. They can't think for themselves but believe what some ex-drunk, Mormon tells them to believe.
You'd think all the grief Beck had in his life would cause him to be more humane instead they turned him into a Mormon flake.
But with the average girth of the groupies and the grouper, their genitals would never mesh.
I'm an ex-drunk and Mormon (not in that order.)
I'd really like to know about that magic underwear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMm3U0paBdU
but I appreciate that you are admitting your ex-Mormon ass is tingling with intoxicants this morning. At least, if I read your post literally it is.
The union was a co-sponser of this event...
In all of the video’s I’ve seen, admittedly not close to all of them, I have yet to see anyone who is not white (and many appear to be older - ‘Grey Riot’s?’). This demonstrates to me the underlying element of racism.
I think that those protesting believe that black, brown, yellow, etc., people will take away the coverage that they, the white people, get, or is due them. Ever since the Civil Right’s movement, any legislation that puts forward a progressive social agenda has been couched, subconsciously by the right, in terms of race. These people may or may not consciously know it, but it’s there. Oh yes, it’s there…
It needs to be pointed out to the MSM, who are characterizing these as ‘Populist’ gatherings, that something that is “Populist” should have a cross-representation of the population. That gatherings that consist solely of one select slice of the population, cannot be said to be POPULIST! They are selective gatherings. But this is too fine a point for many in our MSM.
Can anyone come up with a better way to make this clear?
especially when you read/hear some of their chants, as posted above:
"Forty-million illegals! Forty million illegals!".
The Beckster and Limpballs and their ilk are very happy to incite racism in order to reach their aims.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp4M6rHkN44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnFZsrs32Co
and the masses screamed for the right to be oppressed,...
to oppress us.
Beck and others need to be arrested for inciting violence. if these kinds of disrupting mobs continue to show up at every meeting i can tell you it won't be long before pro-reform groups get together to form a mob of their own then all hell is going to brake lose and people WILL go to jail. who are they to not allow someone with a real need or concern to ask a question? why are they so special, that they can disrupt a simple town hall meeting without any repercussions?
...in the same way they've done it time and again, Beck and Fatboy and all the others who are inciting these morons will immediately start backpedalling the moment someone is injured--or killed--at one of these events. They're yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater and are getting away with it.
I don't know what to think of these meetings. Nothing is getting accomplished and those who disrupt them are getting all the attention. The media is quicker to show people acting up than they are to cover what, if anything of substance, gets accomplished. There is no firestorm against the proposed health care changes, there is just a lot of noise and those with actual concerns are getting pushed aside for show. I don't know who is incharge of keeping the meetings civil but they need to step up and stop the foolishness. This is too serious a subject to let it be destroyed by anyone.
You know - you can set some ground rules for your town hall meetings. You can coordinate with police to ensure they remain peaceful.
For gosh sakes, grow a pair.
Set the ground rules at the beginning and stick to them.
1. You will provide a short statement on the issue at hand.
2. You will then entertain 1 question at a time.
3. Questioners will be chosen after they have raised their hand indicating they have a question.
4. You have 15 seconds to state your question.
5. The politician may engage in answering the question for as long as is necessary.
6. You may have one follow up question. This will be determined by the politician.
7. Dialogue will consist only between the citizen asking a question and the politician providing the answer.
8. There will be a time limit for the entire proceeding. Use your time wisely.
9. Any outburst will result in your removal from the room by police and possibly charged with Disorderly Conduct and/or other charges at police discretion.
10. Your place, once removed, will not be filled by someone else from outside the room.
It's like a press conference.
It may be better to have a an adult discussion in these meetings, but that does require adults to be present on both sides of the issue.
Exactly right.
I seem to recall a kid in Florida getting tased because he interrupted Kerry with a question and the cops felt he was some sort of threat to Kerry. I don't want anyone to get tased or harmed but why was that kid a threat and these people are not? Sure Kerry was an elected pol, but so are the people who are ask to attend these meetings and speak.
Was that the "don't taze me, Bro" guy?
These assholes should have to take their commenting to the Free Speech Zones their kind created and endorsed. How many democrats were led away by security during his speeches?
Who do you think will be the first to complain when their premiums become too high or they are deined health care? These people who are protesting against the health care before congress. They will cry the longest and loudest and demand something done about it. This always happens.
I sure am glad my personal life is in a good place right now because this shit could make me real depressed and angry. The right is like a pitt bull who just won't let go of our pants cuff. We won the election but that didn't loosen their grip and stop their pestering and barking. Somebody call the dog catcher.
just clip the dog yourself?
That would fix him.
It's hard for me to grasp the irrationality and the rage of these middle aged white folk.
I've been to many peace rallies. Every one was entirely civil. There was a sense of community and even patience. It was completely understandable why we were together: people were being slaughtered in an illegal, immoral, losing war. There was some larger theoretical talk about the government, and even a few fringe characters, but it was mostly very polite opposition to a horrible international crime - ABSOLUTELY NOTHING like this sort of rage. This rage comes from no moral principle or crisis: a moderate Democratic majority is in power, and seeking to reform the healthcare system into something that is halfway between our monstrosity of employer-provided insurance and single payer systems that work far better in every other industrialized country in the world. It's inexplicable (unless motivated by some underlying theme like racism).
These people are fascists - the word is not hyperbole. They are engaging in thuggery and mob tactics to perserve a cultural and racial mythology. They are being encouraged on national television. I support their right to gather and hold whatever stupid views they choose, but orchestrating them on a national level and not calling them out is very, very dangerous for our future.
I think this whole damn thing is one percent about health care and 99% about wanting Obama to fail. No matter what he does the goal for the right and Beck followers is for him to fail.
and her mom, Betty. They are really good, smart, dedicated people who work hard to make a difference for ordinary people instead of corporate executives.
In '04, the right-wing successfully accused Betty Castor of 'pallin' around' with terrorists, which is how we ended up with Bush lackey Mel Martinez as our Senator.
Watching Kathy being escorted out by police is a pretty sad commentary on these red-neck idiots - and proof of how stupid Southerners can be. These people are a few sheets sort of a KKK rally.
And the wannabe facists are winning through their intimidation. Rep. Grayson and Sen. Martinez and Sen. Nelson are not having town hall meetings now.
Probably a good idea, since these people are like dogs that have gotten a taste of blood. Someone is going to get seriously hurt before this is over.
That nut who killed the women at the gym this week got his weapons from the same gun dealer who supplied guns to the Virgina Tech murderer.
Who else is out there now, armed to the teeth and full of rage, thanks to the right-wing media hate-fest, waiting to find a place to kill?
How is this different from Islamic suicide murderers?
"That nut who killed the women at the gym this week got his weapons from the same gun dealer who supplied guns to the Virgina Tech murderer."
Damn legal gun dealer selling legal weapons legally to legally purchasing citizens.
Wow these have been an interesting few days. Old women with canes banging on locked doors with political goon squad protecting congress people.
Look. One of the things happening here is that the media has seized on this and is intensifying the situation.
A month ago people felt powerless and where pissed off with the system. Now that they see other people from all across the nation expressing themselves, they don't feel alone any more and they are more willing to express their feelings. This is the Zeitgeist of the nation. Sometimes perception is a persons reality. The Zeitgeist last year was Obama or Change, now the media is helping fuel something else. I hope that it will be constructive.
P.S. I hope that that does not seem like a troll comment. I'm here, to exchange ideas and concerns, teach you and also learn from you. If we all sounded alike we what good would that do us? If there is an alternative or something I can add or point out that was not mentioned I will do so.
It is one! Because you are. It is morning. I love the smell of troll in the morning. Smells like...troll. Now drop the keyboard and go disrupt a meeting like your bretheren.
Wow.... a 4 year old who can type and spell Troll.....
"teach you"
Kind of painted you as providing these thick skullled cave people with a Sermon on the Mount.
By all means, provide some well-crafted, cogently-constructed argument for discussion.
I said "teach you and also learn from you" which was bolded.
So are you saying the media is not feeding the flames to this?
This is not going to stop. I hope you know that. People are picking this up all over the country.
People are finding inspiration from this and old people in walkers are yelling at their congress people at this meetings.
The media and Democratic congress poeple calling old jewish womem from Florida paid lobbyist and neocons is going to back fire! AND YOU ARE FALLING FOR IT!
You need to get your team in order.It's insulting to alteast 1/3 of the democratic base.
You guys and the media going around and painting everyone of the people yelling in these crowds as 912, teaparty, Republicans, is an insult to peoples intelligence. That is the major reason why this issue is gathering strength.
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