Glenn Greenwald Talks To Bill Moyers About The Rule of Law
By Susie Madrak Sunday Dec 14, 2008 6:00am
Glenn Greenwald talked with Bill Moyers Friday night about the rule of law and how it was perverted by the Bush administration:
BILL MOYERS: To be fair, you make a strong case in here that we have to stand up to extremism but that we have to protect our own constitutional principles while we do. And as I read both of these books, it is the sense that out of this Manichean view there came this whole notion that you say is alien to America, this unitary executive powers of the presidency. Have I stated that right?
GLENN GREENWALD: You have. Let’s just quickly describe in the most dispassionate terms, as few of euphemisms, as possible, where we are and what has happened over the last eight years. We have a law in place that says it is a felony offense punishable by five years in prison or a $10,000 fine to eavesdrop on American citizens without warrants. We have laws in place that say that it is a felony punishable by decades in prison to subject detainees in our custody to treatment that violates the Geneva Conventions or that is inhumane or coercive.
We know that the president and his top aides have violated these laws. The facts are indisputable that they’ve done so. And yet as a country, as a political class, we’re deciding basically in unison that the president and our highest political officials are free to break the most serious laws that we have, that our citizens have enacted, with complete impunity, without consequences, without being held accountable under the law.
And when you juxtapose that with the fact that we are a country that has probably the most merciless criminal justice system on the planet when it comes to ordinary Americans. We imprison more of our population than any country in the world. We have less than five percent of the world’s population. And yet 25 percent almost of prisoners worldwide are inside the United States.
What you have is a two-tiered system of justice where ordinary Americans are subjected to the most merciless criminal justice system in the world. They break the law. The full weight of the criminal justice system comes crashing down upon them. But our political class, the same elites who have imposed that incredibly harsh framework on ordinary Americans, have essentially exempted themselves and the leaders of that political class from the law.
They have license to break the law. That’s what we’re deciding now as we say George Bush and his top advisors shouldn’t be investigated let alone prosecuted for the laws that we know that they’ve broken. And I can’t think of anything more damaging to our country because the rule of law is the lynchpin of everything we have.
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Bush returns to the scene of the crime. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081214/ap_on_go_...
The Iraqis should arrest him on sight.
"The trip was conducted under heavy security and a strict cloak of secrecy. People traveling with the president agreed to tell almost no one about the plans, and the White House released false schedules detailing activities planned for Bush in Washington on Sunday."
Many years and half a trillion of our tax dollars later that's how "safe" Iraq is.
pisses me off so badly, I begin to shake when I truly consider how these assholes not only get away with this bullshit, but also how the Democrats and essentially the public let them do it. Pelosi should have been voted out of office on these grounds alone."Impeachment is off the table".PISSED!
I agree with you, and now my anger is turning to Obama, who has said he will not prosecute anyone in the Bush administration for crimes they've committed. He HAS promised "an investigation", but we'll have to wait to see what shows up. We don't NEED an investigation for the overt crimes, torture and eavesdropping without warrants -- they're admitted proudly by the administration.
So who will prosecute them?
I hope Obama realizes these crimes are beyond politics. Prosecuting them needs to be done for moral reasons and to show future leaders that no one is above the law.
...value his/her life. The Powers that Be will not stand idly by and allow anyone to prosecute and punish their poster boy, Georgie.
and still there are 18% who think it's O.K... It's just BDS... etc.
What's wrong with the wingnuts? What are they thinking?
Hitler was a good guy!! Fascism is a good thing! Hate gays. Hate women. Hate. hate. hate.
In countries in what we call the Third World there is a small elite ruling class and then there is the remainder of the population.
It is a two tier system, the elite do not consider themselves to be part of the same country as the masses, nor subject to the same rules or processes.
This is what is happening here.
The new administration is going to have an ever so brief honeymoon with yours truly. There must be a restoration of justice, in toto.
The same people who decry Christ's treatment by Pontius Pilot are the same people who would cheer on his crucifixtion today if he was not their religion or didn't support the empire.
I question the logic employed that believes that this will change now that Bush is out of office. If Pelosi and the whole damn lot of them (with a few exceptions) weren't guilty as sin, this wouldn't all be swept under the rug. If Pelosi weren't guilty as sin, THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN AN IMPEACHMENT HEARING.
I think perhaps we have gone too far for change and restoration to take place. The tipping point has been reached, and the powers that be have decided that it is nice to be King, and the peasants be damned.
"Country" = Farm
"Citizens" = cattle
"Government" = farmer
"police"enforcement of "laws" = fence
Everyone knows that the farmer doesn't have to stay within the fence.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P772Eb63qIY&fe...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EJ9VyjCsXU&fe...
Some animals are more equal than others on Animal Farm
"...we’re deciding basically in unison that the president and our highest political officials are free to break the most serious laws that we have..."
Maybe the inside the beltway a-holes have "decided" to let spoiled frat boy get his way, but the vast progressive blogosphere wants this thug brought to justice.
Legitimately brought to justice.
When I think about what Bush and co. have done in the last eight years I think of Robert Mugabe.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
...and has taken steps to remedy that.
continuity of govt.
http://www.continuityofgovernment.org/
As I copied and pasted the above post, i realized that I was suggesting that there may come a time that we would need to overthrow our oppressive government and realized that, in saying this, I could find myself at risk of being arrested.
Ironic.........and sad......that we have come to this.
We need a Jeffersonian Revolution.
Unfortunately, they're not exactly replicated in the Constitution.
And even if they were, the Bushevik/DIMocrat "PATRIOT ACT" explicitly violates 5 of the amendments guaranteed in the Bill of Rights.
Our government works great if there aren't any republicans in it.
Anger at Bush morphs too readily into overly broad theorizing. Does nobody remember 2000? Everything was so smooth that we thought it didn't matter who the president was. That is what government is capable of.
I hate the voters more than the government. They don't have to pick a great leader. They just have to pick someone who's not evil and not retarded, and the rest falls into place. Not a tough job for the voters, but they blow it again and again, and will continue to do so.
I'm pretty sure that the Branch Davidians, among others, would disagree with the first two paragraphs of your statement.
for anything they did while in office, no matter how criminal.
Just as no USer will EVER face the mortal sanctions of the state for acts committed in Iraq against Iraqis (if you're a Murkin and you "off" another Murkin--like that Sergeant in Kuwait in 2003, that might be different).
No in-coming regime will haul up its predecessor regime on any charges whatsoever. No neophyte Pres--particularly one of the 'opposite' Party--could escape the charges (which would be hyped to the freaking MOON by the rightard-handmaiden SCUM) of political vendetta if he started to prosecute predecessors for misdeeds.
In addition, such an act would GAY-RONN-fucking-TEE they'd be subject to the same treatment with the onset oa any subsequent regime.
Obama's gonna have a hard enough time getting ANYTHING done in a Congress--including DIMS--which is showing itself unwilling even to consider any part of Obama's agenda during this inter-regnum.
Obama's gonna have a hard enough time convincing the USers that he's able to accomplish ANYTHING, without complicating things with the venom and vindictiveness that would ensue from such an effort at wreaking Justice on the malefactors who preceded him....
House Democrats and Republicans are crying foul on the 44 count felony case against former Rep. Rick Renzi (R-Az) because they feel tapping a Congressman's phone is unconstitutional, even if he is committing crimes like extortion, money laundering, insurance fraud etc. Is this 'change we can believe in'?
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2008/1...
House Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group, include Speaker Nancy Pelosi, a Democrat, Republican Leader John Boehner and three others. They filed a 57-page amicus brief earlier this month in U.S. District Court in Tucson, seeking to suppress the government's evidence and dismiss most of its indictment.
Is this change we can believe in? Yes it is. If the evidence was obtained by illegal means, then out it goes. Despite what the Bushcovite junta says, there actually should be one demanding standard applying to all, not the two tiered system Glenn describes that gives the privileged a break. That's how our system of jurisprudence is designed---with justice for all equally and fairly applied--not for just the select few.
If you believe otherwise, then you are endorsing hypocrisy, and becoming the people we allegedly despise.
Ultimately, what we have here is a failure of leadership--that people like David Addington, Dick Cheney, et al have decided that they will place themselves above the law as they deem convenient and be accountable to no one. Principled leadership does not endorse hypocrisy in any way, leads by example, and is ultimately accountable to the American voter. It also honors the precedents of the judicial system and legitimate international treaties that we have endorsed and does not regard them as inconvenient obstacles to be ignored at will.
Upholding principles before the easy convenience of political pandering and bullying is not easy but it is ultimately the right thing to do. Anyone upholding principle before convenience will be remembered by the public for doing thr right thing long after the criminals and hypocrites destroying our political process are forgotten.
Just think, King George III had less oppressive laws than what could be used today if the incumbent gov't found it necessary. The founding fathers would soon be rounded up and the revolution put down in no uncertain terms. All perfectly legal. It really is a shame what the US of A has come to; and I don't think there will be any going back, even with Obama/Dems in power. It will just be a kinder, gentler totalitarian regime. I sure hope I am wrong.
....someone would talk to George Bush and his Cabal about the rule of law. Preferably members of the Hague.
If, in fact, Congress were subjected to a public outcry for Bush and his administration to be held accountable to the rule of law; they would have to respond. It's obvious that Congress will not do anything on it's own, they're too busy CYA'ing. If they were in political peril through recalls of their own, they'd throw anybody under the bus and that's what we should demand.
It is and has been built by design.
The more money you have the more justice you get!
We should investigate and prosecute the crooks and liars in the Whitehouse else we are not the country defined in our Constitution. If you are a patriot then it is essential, not a choice. Draw, hang, and quarter 'em. Errrr... well, at least, prosecute and punish them according to our laws. Without our laws and Constitution, we are nothing.
Anyone who believes that "George Bush and his top advisors shouldn’t be investigated let alone prosecuted for the laws that we know that they’ve broken" should in no way shape or form have anything to do with OUR government!!!
I want the Bush administration to pay for the numerous crimes they have committed and continue to commit, but frankly if the Obama administration and the congress decided to go after them they'll be spending the next two years or longer on these disgusting bastards. Nothing would get done in government and the Republicans will make sure of that. I know not every republican is selfish, apathetic, evil, and just plain subhuman, but enough of them are that they would take advantage of any criminal investigation and make it seem like Obama and the new democratic congress are abusing their power and wasting time on payback instead of fixing the economy(sadly, there are too many dumb Americans in our country to whom the irony in such accusations coming from Republicans would be utterly lost).
We have so many problems set before us because of a corrupt administration and weak-ass opposition these past eight years that we don't have the time to give Bush and his cronies the justice they so richly deserve. Hell, it wouldn't surprise me if the Bush government screwed up this nation so badly just to distract us from going after their sorry asses. These people have turned distraction into an art form.
Nothing will ever happen to the American brand of terrorism while other countries deal with our elected leaders as anything other than the criminals they are. Until another country states that George W. Bush and company will be arrested for crimes against humanity or war crimes, and they will be arrested if they come to their country, nothing we say or feel about the actions of these criminals will ever matter. The American People have lost the right to determine who is a thug and who is not as long as we allow lawlessness to control our government’s actions both internally or externally.
let them eat cake.
Which I'm certain Haliburton would be happy to sell to us delivered in a Hummer fueled by ExxonMobil.
Shit always rolls downhill.
Wazzat?
*no one is above the law.
*execpt this president and vice president.
Silly me, I never noticed that footnote before.
In America it's your laws that protect you the most, not the military.
Mess with those and you set yourselves back to the pre-revolution colonies. It's why you fought the English to begin with. Welcome your new aristocracy.
(Or get off your asses and fight for what is hard-earned yours.)
Greenwald's basic assumption is that out politicians are not being held accountable for following the law.
Not so. Otherwise IL's governor would not be in the mess he is in. Nor Ted Stevens. Nor Larry Craig.
And Bill Clinton was made to pat for lie with a Contempt of Court conviction which carried with it a f-year suspension of his law license.
We are only making such, "Well, they are our leaders, so let them get away with it" arguments ONLY having to do with Bush/Cheney.
The ONLY people being offered this "Get Out of Jail Free Card" are people in the Bush administration. Somehow the idea that prosecuting them it is just politics and shouldn't be done. A Truth & Reconciliation Committee has been thrown into the discussion, as a means of holding their feet to the fire, while letting them get off, if they will only admit what they have done.
Greenwald's basic premise is wrong, if it is only being applied to Bush/Cheney. Others are being "made to answer" for their actions. The real questions are these two:
I can speculate all day long about the answer to the second question, but it would only label me a conspiracy nut.
But it is a fact that somehow the idea that Bush/Cheney should not be held to answer for what are prima facie cases of criminality, violations of the sort that Greenwald points out. Who are making such arguments? And why?
No one even bats an eye at the idea of Stevens being prosecuted.
No one even bats an eye at the idea of Graig being prosecuted.
No one even bats an eye at the idea of Blagojevich being prosecuted.
No one even bats an eye at the idea of Clinton should have been impeached. Everyone admits that if he lied, he should pay.
No one even batted an eye at the idea of former IL governor George Ryan being prosecuted. He still sits in prison.
Everyone agreed that politicians who break the law should be indicted.
It is not 'some elite class' that is immune. It is only Bush and Cheney.
We need to see the bigger picture and ask why we are even considering NOT indicting Bush and Cheney. And their underlings.
Even Hitler had underlings. And Nuremburg was not a happy place for those underlings.
What city will be our Nuremburg?
Congress not providing oversight, not investigating, letting the facts decide. Poitical careers of power and money cause the rhetorical political out that its bad for politics.
Which must be even worse for all that isn't politics.
We all remember the silver spooned senator's son exemption from the draft. The Dick Cheney, "Had better things to do" than serve his country. All the likes of the Karl Rove's and Rush Limbaugh's that would not serve their country when in need. But is over zealous to send others. Even some of these elite children that serve, serve in safe areas. You know like Pres. Bush who couldn't show up for weekend drill duty during a war in Vietnam. But that was acceptable for a person of stature from a family as his. While others either served in war, AWOL'ed to Canada or put in Levenworth.
Why do you think so much fuss was made over the Pat Tilman enlistment?
Thats right, to hide all those others that wouldn't serve.
Look it doesn't make one more of a man/woman to serve in war. Yet if you are going to mouth off that somehow you have more patriotism than others. Well, you actions speak loudly then.
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