Obama To Announce Today His Plan to Retain Military Tribunals for Detainees
By Susie Madrak Friday May 15, 2009 10:00amTheoretically, the Obama administration could bring some integrity to the process. But practically speaking? I think the tribunals are too tainted to retain, and I don't pretend to understand why this is happening:
WASHINGTON — - The Obama administration will announce plans Friday to revive the Bush-era military commission system for prosecuting accused terrorists, current and former officials said, reversing a presidential campaign pledge to rely instead on federal courts and the traditional military justice system.
Word of the imminent decision infuriated human rights groups, who argued that any trials under the system created by former President George W. Bush would be widely viewed as tainted and said the Obama administration was duplicating the mistakes of former administration.
[...] White House officials insisted that Obama was not overturning a campaign vow. The president "never promised to abolish" military commissions, an administration official said. However, during his campaign Obama repeatedly called for change.
[...] The administration still intends to prosecute some Guantanamo Bay detainees in federal courts, as Obama had pledged. But officials have concluded that a small number of detainees can be tried only in the military commissions, said a U.S. official familiar with the changes, speaking on condition of anonymity in advance of Friday's announcement.
The administration on Friday also will outline major changes to the military commission system that will be used in future trials.
Gabor Rona, the international legal director of Human Rights First, said military commission trials are unlikely to be seen as legitimate forms of justice.
"Everyone knows the military commissions have been a dismal failure," said Rona. "The results of the cases will be suspect around the world."
But Charles Stimson, a former Bush administration official who oversaw detainee affairs at the Pentagon, applauded Obama's proposal as one that would bring needed change to the military commission system while keeping it intact.
"It is a good start. The closer they get to courts-martial the better," Stimson said. "They should learn from the mistakes the Bush administration made, then proudly defend the military commissions.
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Returning to Bush's eco-policies and secret meetings with energy executives?
Why? What's the point? If they are guilty of something why not try them in criminal court?
accepted as evidence in a ligit court is why
obama is improving w's legacy with every decision.
Looks like a one termer.
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Another campaign promise broken.
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Has Obama rejected the 'unlawful combatants' idea? I know the court rejected it. If so the people at gitmo are either POW's or civilians. Either status would require a fundamental change in how they are treated.
But lately he's said a lot of things that apparently he never meant. But yeah the fact is these people fall into only one of 2 catagories - POWs or Otherwise Protected Individuals. In the first case they could only be tried for anything if it involved war crimes like using torture, targeting civilian infrastructure, using incendidary weapons, etc. And in the second case they would have to face a civilian court.
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Whereas some prefer to play "Follow the Leader"...
... America was founded on "Following the Rule of Law"
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Fuck it. If we aren't going to obey the Constitution as re the illegally detained human beings, who are victims of torture as well, in Gitmo and other sites, fuck it altogether.
I hate thinking something's there, when it's not.
... is still a travesty of justice.
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Nameplates, underwear and the dog...
... "CHANGE" completed.
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based on foreign policy.
Anyone that understands our form of government knows that the executive typically is focused and mandated with foreign policy direction, that is why the reporting structures for the foreign services and security agencies are structured in a way to be controlled, via political appointments, by the executive branch.
Domestic policy and budgeting is the primary responsibility of the Congressional branch.
Having said that...what Obama is doing is not pragmatism. It's not even good politics. It does indeed look like a continuation of the same old policies (terrorist prosecutions via the Federal court system not withstanding).
That is not what was promised. It is not what I voted for.
if this is the BEST we can hope for...then the corporatists have won...and America and democracy as we've known it are done.
We will conduct our foreign policy in a way that is even more ham handed than it has been in the past, foment more hatred, more violence, more attacks against us.
The American people will pay the price for short sited, selfish policies that favor only the privileged few.
The corporations won a long time ago, now they have gained such a level of control on our government they can afford to come out of the shadows.
Psych
... is growing by the day.
The alternative -- a crabby warmonger and a clueless beauty queen -- would have been intolerably worse, of course. But Barack just continues to drop the ball on so many things.
...on the international and domestic levels.The American Ruling Class is thoroughly bankrupt.Obama's trigger happy use of drones is just a small example of this.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/may2009/buy...
... it seems they are afraid of taking any initiative that may enrage or be slightly contrarian to the interests of the right. And yet they don't seem to have the same level of caution regarding the sensitivities of their liberal base, for whose sensibilities the Dem honchos have little regard.
I am personally done with the whole "chose the less of two evils or the country gets it" blackmail approach that the Dems are playing on us.
Oh you just want secession and power. Quit complaining and get back in line.
obama in 2008: "By any measure, our system of trying detainees has been an enormous failure"
obama in 2009: i want to continue our system of failure
...and I'll say it again, NEVER trust a pol from Illinois/Chicago. The nation has been witness to the corrupt cesspool that is politics and government here, and this is the culture that spawned and nurtured Obama.
stfu. We're really not in the mood for GOP talking points today.
Go read a popup book.
the best you can do - an adhominem attack?
No...but didn't want to overwhelm you.
I like to keep people within their frame of reference. Makes them more comfortable.
Here...have a balloon.
I voted for Obama, based on his message and his platform, and with the hope that he played the game here in Illinois (the state where the last governor is very likely headed to prison to join his predecessor) in order to get to a position where he could really make a difference in this country.
Now I see him backpedaling on so many things, and I'm frankly disappointed.
But please, go ahead and overwhelm me. Unlike you, I won't resort to personally attacking those with whom I don't agree, but if that's what it takes to make you feel superior, by all means have at it.
you STARTED this with an ad hominem attack, then got shirty over being attacked in the same manner.
It's gotta be tough to be you.
... ad hominem does not mean what he thinks it means?
there's a thought I may have rolled around to, had I not read it here first.
..is starting something?
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whatever, dude.
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Well then, I can trust you didn't care for Lincoln then?
He's in a pop-up book somewhere.
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your original charge of "never trust a pol from Illinois/Chcago..." is also an adhominem attack. So you were sayin'?
Fri, 05/15/2009 - 11:45 — miss_kitty
great minds...
Yeah!
Z-big-new Bryzinsky, and Henry Kissinger were the ones who "spawned and nurtured" Obama. ...?
It was just an answer to your Ad hominem attack on any "pol from Illinois/Chicago." I thought you would immediately recognise that.
Check yourself.
I base it on what I see going on around my everyday here at the local and state level. The Trib and Sun-Times have extensively documented what passes for govt. here, and it cuts across party lines. I don't think it seems to far fetched to fear that someone who has come up through the ranks here may not be as genuine as they seem.
We've seen so many officials here go to Club Fed, you begin to wonder if selling-out is the norm and not the exception to the rule. I feel the last decent pol this state produced was Paul Simon, a man of real integrity, but sadly there doesn't seem to be anyone else here like him.
At least your point came across loud and clear now, and I thank you for that.
As for "starting" something, I was only replying to what someone else accused me of (their words, not mine).
I do have to say I'm disappointed that the some denizens of this board don't seem very open and tolerant of dissenting opinions. I had thought that this was a forum where posters were free to agree and disagree with each other in a polite and civil manner, but from the looks of it, anyone not preaching to the choir is singled out for invective. I don't agree with some of the things I read on blogs, but I also don't tell people to stfu or go out of my way to belittle them.
Perhaps my first statement was a bit over the top and unfairly tarred/feathered a group as whole, but I don't see the need to be personally insulted just because my opinion doesn't match someone elses. In this respect, C&L doesn't seem all that different from some of the wingnut boards out there.
I used to frequent C&L all the time during the bush administration and everyone here seemed on the level. But once this obama thing started rolling- anyone who disagrees is obviously a right-wing gun nut who hates gays and democracy.
Obama is a war criminal just like Bush for his nonsense adventures in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. He has innocent blood on his hands and he deserves ABSOLUTELY NO RESPECT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM FROM ANYBODY. That's the simple fact and I hope C&L begins to start more anti-war rhetoric as it did when referring to Bush's military nonsense. But right now I mostly see stories about what the GOP is up to(who cares?)- instead of the death that Obama is spreading.
Remember the Crooks and Liars are always in Washington D.C.
I think it's a mistake to have blind faith in any politician, regardless of political persuasion, and especially so when the political structure that they rose through is questionable. Pols are human and no more perfect than you or me, and they often have their own agenda which may or may not be in their constituents best interests. I tend to view politics as a function of power, money, and control, with ideology taking a back seat
As for him being a war criminal, that may be a bit of a stretch. He inherited this mess and is between a rock and a hard place; I just hope he remembers his promises to the electorate and does the right thing.
He's not between any rock and hard place- its very simple all he has to do is withdraw all American troops from where they don't belong and get them back to their original purpose which is defending this country.
As the president he can do this no problem if he wanted to.
You kill innocent people- you're a war criminal, if I went and shot some villagers in Afghanistan I'd definitely be labeled a criminal- but this guy uses unmanned drones to obliterate them and suddenly its "a bit of a stretch"- why because he has the status of president? He's still human like me or you and deserves no exemption from murder.
He claims to be a christian,America must NEVER forget all these warcriminals all claim to be christians
Hitler claimed to be a christian too
In other words,christians can not be trusted to act like normal civilized human beings
...he's only been in office a little over 3 months. I have a feeling that even with his intelligence and character he is finding himself not as prepared for the enormity of the tasks in front of him as he thought he'd be.
Keep in mind that aside from a long period in the Il. State House, he doesn't have that much executive experience. He was our jr. Senator, but he spent most of his term campaigning for POTUS. I expect his hair to turn completely gray in a matter of months.
So what if he's been in office for a little over 3 months- its a pretty simple decison, lets make things worse and kill more innocent people and spend american taxpayer money doing it- or lets stop and come home. His decision has been MORE war by ratcheting up the attacks on Pakistan and bringing in more troops to Afghanistan.
If the idea of war vs. bringing the troops home is too complicated for Obama to handle then he shouldn't be in office in the first place
I don't want to go to war with Afghanistan or Pakistan, and want the troops home.
But in the case of the latter there's some concern that Pakistan's nuclear arms could fall into the hand of the Taliban or some other such groups endangering their neighbors, and particularly India who are also nuclear armed.
In both cases, we can thank boosh for that.
civilians and 95 children the other day we are making the Taliban stronger
We need to get out now
No man there is no way Pakistan's nuclear arms are falling into the arms of the Taliban- Pakistan has a huge army and 7,000-10,000 tribal fighters aren't going to defeat it. They get their momentum from the fact that everyone knows the current Pakistani government like the last one- follows orders from the united states- and kills its own people in the name of America. The issue is- Obama- like bush- doesn't like it when Pakistan negotiates peace deals and wants all his enemies to be dead. The Pakistani government is stuck between listening to US orders or continuing to kill its own people. None of this happened before US involvement in the area. And even so- how does bombing villagers in Pakistani tribal areas fix these problems???
Everyone knows the problems that Bush caused but letting Obama off the hook is nonsense. Saying bullshit that the Taliban will control Pakistan's nuclear arms reminds me of the same excuses Neo-cons used to justify staying in Iraq. "If we leave now there will be a bloody civil war!!" . Its all bullshit- stop this killing, we are the problem not the solution.
Not only that- but it is completely immoral to steal my money and other taxpayers money to fund death and the profits of Haliburton, Lockheed Martin, and others.
I only wish we had access to the same information he does. He's got the hardest job in the world.
I'm not trying to give him a pass, but I wonder what I would do in his position, knowing what he does. If anything, I put the blame for this mess entirely on BushCo.
We do have access to the same information he does- my family is all in Pakistan and we've seen this foreign policy mess by the United States over and over and over again in these regions over and over and over for decades. They just gave billions of dollars in more military spending for these wars- where companies like Lockheed Martin make out like bandits.
BushCo definitely ignited the mess- but you can't remove Obama from the blame for CONTINUING it. Bush shot some innocent people- handed Obama the gun. Obama could either put the gun down or continue shooting- and he's doing the latter.
I'm sorry but saying that he's got the hardest job in the world is complete nonsense(being a truck driver in Afghanistan avoiding US missle strikes and random criminals trying to rob you on a horrible road is much more difficult, and doesn't come with the cushy living standards of President) and it IS giving him a pass for the death's that he's involved in.
How about we stop giving these war mongers a pass- when you say things like that- its no different from the republicans who defended Bush.
how true in the days of us against bush, the old posters were the best, now its a mish mash of my president right or wrong , the lights been a long time comeing but obama lets his little corporate lite shine more and more every day!
Fri, 05/15/2009 - 12:30 — theguy
I used to frequent C&L all the time during the bush administration and everyone here seemed on the level. But once this obama thing started rolling- anyone who disagrees is obviously a right-wing gun nut who hates gays and democracy.
I love your post. It's exactly what I've been thinking. I find I'm losing interest here fast.
The USA has become a fetid pile of dung, and unless someone starts cleaning it up, instead of bickering and finger pointing, it will continue to fester and soil our planet.
I do know that's C&L's thing: to expose the douchebaggery, but we posters have to get beyond defending Obama for everything. I don't see any of the change I had hoped for.
THERE, I SAID IT.
Remember that? I guess he is a pretty good "Pitch Man" either way I refuse to give up,maybe it's time to start announcing our prez. canidate for 2012'Kucinich maybe?
Yes we can
Go Kucinich!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also liked Edwards as he was willing to address income inequality and the concerns of the working class.
...he can't let the big head do the thinking though...
...to do with his hair? ;)
Edwards was also my first choice.
That's what Elizabeth said too.
That's not what John said about Elizabeth though.
...what's next? Well, here it is:
http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/column/451028
in the plebe to criticize any of his "wise" decisions, or do we have to wait until he successfully appoints Cheney to the Supreme Court?
I would like some of the Obama perma-apologists to let us know, please.
It's really a brilliant super duper secret strategy to rope-a-dope the repubs.
Etc.
In reality, I don't care if they serve the inmates crumpets and tea and give them really cushy chairs for the trial. It's still bs if it's not done in the open in a proper court..
Gibbs is talking about this right now and according to what he says, this is NOT a continuation of the bush plan. Major changes will be put into place.
... which is what illegal detainees crave!
It makes all the difference!
To get these cases through the civil courts is going to take years. The courts martial could be done this year. A real courts martial, not that crap Bush tried to set up, has strong rules of evidence including the inadmissibility of any coerced information. The real question is how open the trials will be, especially how 'secret' evidence will be handled. The fact that they're military or not is a non-issue.
...unless they have evidence against these guys other than their coerced statements, what is the point of any kind of trial? And if they have such evidence, why the fuck did they need to torture them. The truth is, they have absolutely nothing that would hold up in any reasonable court, therefore they should be released.
If we are, in fact, releasing a couple true terrorists, put a spook on them and follow them back to the nest. Maybe some good could come of this debacle.
I definitely agree with you there. If they had any evidence at all of ANYTHING all of this would be done with. But they have nothing and they know nothing- these people have been dehumanized for way too long- let them go and lets stop this madness
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
While Americans listen to the talk about Gitmo prisoners little to nothing is said about other detainess who had nothing to do with Al Qeada or the Taliban. Yes again Obama is proving how to let the real information about Bush/Cheney's hidden reasons. 17 Chinese Uighurs have been held in Gitmo as noted by the Chinese Govenment in 2003. Yes the US Media didn't print it but the World News Media reported it. Bush/Cheney kidnapped people from countries to use them to get information about China, Russia, Korea and others. This was not all about terrorism it was about getting secrets in hopes of controlling the World. In 2001 a man was kidnapped Bosnia and kept for 8 years as he was tortured for information about Russia. Obama released him today and he is sent to relatives in France. In the documents nothing was asked about terrorism just Russian secrets. When the trials start Americans will learn what the real reason was for kidnappings, torture which had little to do with terrorism.
I will admit Bush and Cheney did very well with the lies told to the American people even now Americans continue to believe the lies. It's smart of President Obama to show Americans rather then tell them. Look anything Obama says Republicans/Media/Press will spin blame and lie so why not let the hearing speak for itself and we'll learn what tricks were played on us and who the American people were fooled by the Bush Administration.
This is another step in the whitewashing of bushco crimes.
Will the judges wear those curly white wigs at the trials?
If were going back in time, might as well go WAY back.
Like this?
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41jYcsd...
lol thx ys. made me laugh
Susie says: "I think the tribunals are too tainted to retain, and I don't pretend to understand why this is happening"
Why is this happening you ask...It is because Obama and the Democrats ARE NOT who you think they are! DEMS and REPS are the SAME THING to ANYONE looking at them from outside the USA. When will US citizens ever understand just how narrow the distinctions between the parties TRULY ARE? To any other country in THE WORLD, the US political fights are just postures and attitudes WITHOUT MEANINGFUL DISTINCTION !
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The Bush legacy will soon be yours Obama. I read you don't care about polls either as with Bush. Most of us on the left is watching the 180 degree turn we see more and more everyday, Pragmatism is one thing but this full embrassing of Bush policy is sickening. No amount of spinning this to the effect that "i'm not breaking any campaign pledges" will work soon. I guess we don't matter anymore , your base, you know the people who worked so hard to get you elected, and so you opted to appease the neocon reichwing. That's fine O, we don't matter. I only hope that you don't find yourself in a political sh@%storm and need your base.
You know I'm really surprised at people who thought that Obama was going to be any different than Bush. Time and time again it was obvious that Obama's foreign policy was the same as Bush- and possibly worse with more military spending and adventures in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Somalia(not just the piracy issue, but our US funding of the warlords there).
Did all you anti-war Democrats just ignore that? Did you think Afghanistan was a just war? That going into Pakistan and killing villagers there is a just war?
Any fair judge would dismiss any charges against anyone imprisoned at Guantanamo. Sure, a couple detainees might be guilty of something, but we'd never be able to prove it after all Bush (and maybe Obama) have done. We might as well just cut out the middle man and release them now.
Most of those detainees are either complete innocents that were ratted out for US bribes- or they were just people defending their country from US invasion. No US soldier belongs in Afghanistan or Iraq- and if they happened to get killed there- well every Iraqi or Afghan has a right to pull the trigger.
"My administration will be transparent and hold no secrets from the people of the united states."
Obama's preznitzy is one whopper of a big bait 'n' switch.
What kind of trials supported by the Bush administration did the Supreme Court rule couldn't be used to try the detainees?
Do we HAVE to go through this again?
What is your solution?
At this point, no trial could proceed in our federal courts or courts martial. Even if there is evidence that is not tainted by coersion and torture, the prisoners have been held for seven years without trial.
Obama has two options: let them go or come up with some other system.
Even if he wanted to let them go, where would he send them? For the most part, sending people back to Afghanistan or Yemen or Pakistan or wherever is the equivalent of a death sentence.
This is a legal black hole developed by the brilliant minds of the former administration. For some of these people, I think Obama pretty much has to pay reparations. Its a big fucking mess, and the civilian courts wouldn't touch this case. For starters, the prosecuters, the interrogators, and everyone who supervised them would immediately face criminal charges and contempt citations.
Lying,war mongering treason maybe?
With all due respect, I believe that to be nonsense. Why can't we just send them back to whereever they were picked up from? Why is going back to one of these countries a death sentence?
It strikes me as odd that a (terrorist) returning to where they came from would not be welcomed with open arms, or at a minimum, a guy with a family would certainly be welcomed back. If these people were "guilty" they would have had a proper trial years ago, there's no reason to embrace the faux neocon terror we hold these people with.
Now if you're worried about them coming back at us because we've treated them below SPCA conditions then yeah, I hear that but, at the risk of sounding callous, they've earned a shot at us.
Thank you- sending these people back to where they were isn't an automatic death sentence- and its where they should've been. If Obama had any sense at all- he'd immediately prosecute all those Buch era Criminals for war crimes- and use their money to help these detainees back on ther way to their respective country as reparations.
And we might also ASK them where they'd like to be released. No doubt most would say "in the place you grabbed me". We don't have to make every decision for those detainees -- they aren't paper dolls to be moved around at the whim of Americans. They can begin to be the captain of their own ship again by deciding themselves where they'll be released.
i think what we have here is chickens comeing home to roost, some includeing myself have been pointing out that obamas not what he presented hiself as , a liberal, with the fisa bill ect ect hes continuied to cast off the trappings of that dirty word , liberal , and assumed his real place in politics as a right of center repig look alike,
He is already guilty of murder and war crimes plus more
And we should even get republican support for that,If not something is seriously wrong
the problem with that is.... biddens next inline for president , hes another bought and paid for corporate douchbag , jesus we are so screwed , bidden will just carry on the corporate torch of warmongering!
maybe he would be less inclined to commit war crimes and other impeachable offences
its not likely and i wouldnt hold my breath looking for something worthwhile from bidden,
can just let Obama keep on murdering inoncent people and continue giving the rest of our money away to bankers,wallstreet and international corparations to move our jobs overseas and such
What's very nearly a tragedy is that so many millions of people URGENTLY needed Obama to be a man of courage and backbone to undo GW Bush's damage and violation of America -- that's why they voted for him, to get America back on the right path.
I voted for him myself, though I had trepidations because of his vote for telecom immunity after promising he'd NEVER vote for it. But there wasn't another choice except the ill-tempered idiot McCain.
Something's really wrong with the American election process....
yes thiers plenty wrong with the election process, and it was more then evident in the last election that we were being taken for a ride by the corporations , they gave us obama and clinton , both cut from the same cloth,
Don't forget, they also gave us a FABULOUS, two-year-long, light and sound show.
He sounds like he's trying to approach this on an ad hoc basis. Some prisoners will be released if they've been charged with nothing, some will be tried in civilian courts, and some by military commission, so presumably they can be kept at a distance from American shores to prevent danger, and possibly even being in on the planning stages for further attacks.
I've heard of Mafia dons running their families from jail cells.
Additionally, Obama's placing restrictions like military commissions will hear no evidence coorced from any kind of torture or degrading conditions and of course, no future tortures of like nature.
I think the danger would be far greater to the detainees than to Americans. You know how many nutjobs there are who would LOVE to kill somebody they'd designated as a terrorist. And you know what a furor FoxNews would raise if they were brought to the US.
The "further attacks" are something the Bush administration should have thought of years ago, but like the idiots they are, it apparently never entered their minds that they could be creating terrorists from innocents.
I recall wondering several years ago what the Bush administration was going to do with all these people they tortured but couldn't find any crimes to charge them with. I feared they'd be murdered to keep them quiet, and I suppose some were.
It's too bad Obama is not doing much to associate himself with better treatment of the detainees -- I know he says torture (waterboarding) will no longer be permitted, but there are thousands of detainees in other US-run prisons abroad. And they ARE being tortured, just not waterboarded if their keepers are following Obama's orders.
We REALLY needed a crystal-clear line drawn, with the difference in prisoner-treatment between then (under GW) and now (under Obama) being especially vivid and solid.
That was the argument behind WWII Japanese internment camps. The claim was the US government was protecting the detainees from a populace that might harm them in the aftermath of Pearl Harbor. But interesting thing, the tops of the fence seemed more designed to keep people in than to keep outsiders out.
I always wondered why we didn't protect the Germans in the same way. We must have really hated those guys.
"Theoretically, the Obama administration could bring some integrity to the process."
Are you fucking kidding me? Are we that desperate to believe?
If voting actually were capable of producing change it would be illegal. This country and our democracy died in 1913 when Woodrow Wilson created the Federal Reserve.
the only thing we vote for every 4 years is whether or not there is funding for contraception outreach in africa.
I was saying go bama, NOW I am saying NO bama!
I do. Obama was never on your side to begin with.
I know that hurts to hear, but you're going to have to deal with it.
The sooner the better. You've been jobbed. Just like the Rethugs used their bible-thumping morons, the Dems are playing the left. Big time.
He was never your ally.
Northeast is not east. It is more east than west, but it is not east.
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