A Real Life Example: Why We Need Single Payer, or At Least A Public Option
Let's follow one minor injury (mine) through the American health care system, shall we? It started in September 2007, when I fell out of a tow truck.
I fell out of a tow truck after a long, hard week at work because while I was
driving home from New Jersey across the Betsy Ross bridge, a tire blew out. My auto club sent out a crew but they couldn't change the tire - it needed a special tool, one I didn't have. (Used car.) So I trudge back to the police station at the foot of the bridge, where someone was nice enough to let me use their phone. (Dead cell battery! Oh lucky day!) But then the red-faced shift commander came in and started screaming at me: "GET. THAT. CAR. OFF. MY. BRIDGE!!" He also yelled at me for "tying up our line" and insisted I fork up $300 to get my car towed off the bridge.
I'd just started the job after several months of unemployment and was broke. I told him; he didn't care. I finally made another call and got my auto club to authorize a purchase order to get me towed.
It was a Very Big Truck, a shiny black tractor-trailer with a flatbed. We unloaded the car at my mechanic's, and the driver dropped me off in front of my house. Did I mention the truck was black, and that it was late at night and dark outside? Because here's where I tried to step out of the truck onto one of the decks (black, with no reflective safety strip) and dropped three feet to the sidewalk, onto my ankle.
Much crying and a trip to the emergency room later, I discovered another little oddity of the American Way of Insurance: Since the accident involved a vehicle, all treatment had to go through my no-fault car insurance until it was tapped out. The local hospital did an x-ray and told me it was a minor sprain.
After three months of physical therapy, it wasn't getting better. The physical therapist told me she thought maybe I'd chipped a bone and it was tearing at the ligament. "You should get an MRI," she said.
This, as they say, is where the fun begins.
So I went to my doctor, who tried to order an MRI. It kept getting rejected. Finally, I found out why: Since the original treatment was paid by my car insurance, they didn't know I'd already had physical therapy. So then we had to go back and forth with the car insurance to get them to send the records.
It was just about this time that my insurance carrier announced they were severing the agreement with my university-affiliated practice in a dispute with the hospital over reinbursement rates - and I had to find another doctor.
You guessed it. Back to start! (I know; I'm bored with this story, too. But I want people to understand how many hoops we're jumping through under the present system.)
I got all that paperwork in when my former employer notified me we'd switched insurance plans - and I had to start all over again.
Finally, almost two months ago, I finally got in to see a top-ranked orthopedist. He told me I was fine. I kind of got in his face and said, "Look, I'm unemployed, I'm paying for COBRA and I'm running out of money. I need to know what's wrong so I can take care of it while I still have insurance."
His response? "I'm 99.9% sure you just have some residual swelling and I can fix that with cortisone." Against my better judgment, I let him.
In the follow-up visit, I told him it still hurt when I walked; he told me to take Motrin and scheduled another followup.
About a week after the shot, I was on the couch watching TV (did I mention the 30 or so pounds I put on from not being able to walk?) and turned my foot to one side. I was hit with excruciating pain, like severe labor cramps in my ankle. Then I felt a sudden pop, and the pain was gone.
I called the doctor's service and described the pain, asked if there was anything I should do and was it okay to walk on it?" I got a one-word response from the office clerk who called back: "Yes." Yes what? I asked. She didn't know, she just knew "Doctor said yes."
At this point, I insisted on an MRI. (Yet another $50 copay!) At this point, I didn't trust the doctor and spent some hours pouring over on-line MRI images, comparing them to mine. It looked like I had a damaged ligament and a fracture, but I had to wait for the official verdict.
This past Wednesday was my appointment. (Let me mention here that this practice is run like a high-speed assembly line.) The doctor finally comes in and tells me the ankle "looks fine, I told you the cortisone would fix your problem." I frown: "The MRIs didn't show anything?"
"What MRIs? I was looking at your x-rays."
So now he goes back and looks at the MRIs, comes back in the room and says, "The MRIs do show a fracture and a ruptured ligament." He wants me to wear a brace and go back to physical therapy.
"I don't understand," I said. "How is the ligament going to heal if the broken bone is still rubbing against it?" (And don't think I haven't realized there's a very good chance the cortisone shot is what finally ruptured the ligament.)
And that's when he walked out of the room and didn't come back.
So I came home and made an appointment at Penn to get a second opinion.
That's what happens in our present system., when decisions are made based on profit and insurance instead of your health. Multiply that process by hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions. This is the mess that Congress tells us we want to keep.
By the way, feel free to send this link along to your congress critters!
But we won't know if single payer or a public option will suck unless we try it.
If you are a Dr. You're afraid that you'll make less money.
What was the name of that oath you took?
Or does that even matter anymore?
Or do they still take that oath at all?
This is directed at the so called Dr.
What is your conceptual, continuity?
what a mess! I've been pretty lucky compared to you, but I haven't had too much occasion to use the system (knock wood).
Are you ready to try something that has nothing to do with doctors or insurance or co-pays?
< We'll send you a sample if you're willing to try it and report back. I trust your ability to report...
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
n/t
Double post.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
My real concern is that my ankle is really instable and swells up if I'm active. I really miss my yoga!
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
Here's what you should do.
Michael Moore would love this.
Do a fundraiser here at Crooksandliars to see if we can raise enough money to get you to France plus decent food/lodging.
Go to an orthopedic guy/gal there and have the whole thing checked out and see what kind of diagnosis/treatment you get from them.
I'd bet they'd look at your MRI and operate on your foot and send you home in a cast.
It must be awful to injure yourself like that and have to go through all the insurance hell and still have pain and the inability to exercise.
We all deserve better than we're getting. It's particularly sad to think that "somewhere" you could get appropriate, professional, quality care and actually have your problem SOLVED! with little to no money
The best of luck to you.
P.S. Anybody know of any great expat communities in France?
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
One year I was on vacation with my nephew, nieces, Mom, Aunt and dog and got an intestinal blockage. Went to an emergency center and the doctors said "DRIVE HOME." So I left the gang and drove directly to my hospital at home (Sandusky Ohio to Pittsburgh PA). And spent 4 days in the hospital until the blockage cleared up. Then the insurance company called me and said they might not cover because, because, because... And I "associated" them with the sequence of events and told them to shut up and cover an emergency as required. They did. They didn't like it but they did. Best medical in the world that insurance regulators approve...
When I went into my hospital, I bypassed the nurse and went directly to the first doctor I saw and said "I'm here with a stomach blockage." She asked (sensibly) "How do you know," and I handed her an x-ray to prove my diagnosis. She and I shared a good laugh.
quality of care ranked in the mid 30s out of the top 40 industrialized countries in the world as the "best health care."
PS. The ranking was done purely on quality of health care received, regardless of cost.
That ranking no doubt overlooked critically important information: amount of money spent on reelecting sympathetic politicians.
"This is the mess that Congress tells us we want to keep"
It is also what they are THREATENING US we will get with Gov't health insurance.
I wonder why the same folk don't warn us against GOV'T FUNDED bridges, or GOV'T FUNDED sewers, GOV'T FUNDED police & fire?
When the northern span of the Bay Bridge (SF-Oakland) had to be replaced, I did not hear even ONE person or group suggest it should be done with "private funds" or that a Government built bridge would be a terrible, horrible, no-good bridge! So there!
Very complicated hardware. Sorry to hear your woes! I've got private insurance through my employer (thank the stars) because if I didn't I'd be dead. (Two, now possibly three, autoimmune diseases) I lobby who will listen daily for socialized medicine. Better luck out there! If congress screws this up my "insurer" be very pleased.
Good article Susie.
.
Starve the WAR Beast...
... Save the World.
I hope you've shaared your story with Bernie Sanders. He wants to hear from anyone that has aa story.
I recently ended up in an email conversation with someone who didn't like a comment I'd left on a YouTube video about, I guess, conservatism vs. liberalism. This guy was actually insisting to me that when people need social programs like Food Stamps or help with their medical bills, it's inevitably, ALWAYS, because they were irresponsible or stupid or reckless. This guy is so psychotic (and I have no doubt he is a typical right-wing authoritarian) that he chooses to tell himself that anybody who has bad luck or gets screwed by their insurer is actually to blame for their own mess, 100% of the time.
I swear, we're dealing with people who are so sociopathically-minded and selfish that it boggles the imagination. And THESE are the people the Dems in Congress want us to "compromise" with? Holy crap.
Thank you for telling your story. Fell better.
Nail on the head. I don't understand the mechanism and if I could cure it I'd be the most controversial person on Earth. Sounds like a good science fiction read.
by the sounds of it...
Only when the last tree has died
and the last river has been poisoned and the last fish has been caught
will we realize we cannot eat money.
He "proved" his theory that poor people simply don't have the self-discipline necessary for 1) success and 2) not having too many children. He used early nineteenth-century Catholic Ireland to prove his point; the British government bought into that and allowed the potato-famine genocide. Besides, they needed to clear off a lot of agricultural land and create a bunch of low-wage workers for the Industrial Revolution, and that's all according to Malthus.
"Courtesy is owed. Respect is earned. Love is given." --Unknown author, found in Guide to Texas Etiquette by Kinky Friedman
Why on earth are you waffling on Single Payer?
Do NOT give in. The public option is doomed to fail and make things worse. There is but one reason why Single Payer is off-the-table: they know it is the most cost effective, viable option. To "put it on the table" would be to illuminate the screwing Americans are getting with Health insurance.
MAKE THEM PUT IT ON THE TABLE.
Stop Waffling on it. Use C&L's power to demand something instead of kowtowing to the Democratic Party.
Just Once.
1. I want help NOW. Sure, I want single payer - it's the only thing that will save the economy. But if Congress is as mercenary as they usually are, the only thing we might get is a public option.
2. I can live with the public option, because it really will eventually morph into single payer.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
How do you figure the public option will eventually morph into single payer? I think it is just the opposite.
What is going to stop insurance companies from dumping their most expensive customers onto the taxpayers? Then, the public option will become burdensome and require higher deductibles and copays. There is no way the public option will be competitive with the insurance industries.
How do you figure the public option will eventually morph into single payer? I think it is just the opposite.
What is going to stop insurance companies from dumping their most expensive customers onto the taxpayers? Then, the public option will become burdensome and require higher deductibles and copays. There is no way the public option will be competitive with the insurance industries.
Making politicians responsible for delivering on health-care would change the thrust of politics in America and, horror of horrors, diminish their power to wage (and lose) wars. Can't have that. Instead we have the rhetorical madness of politicians and business people denouncing public health care initiatives as socialism or communism while American capital invests in countries which proudly proclaim themselves socialist or communist.
That shot shrinks your flesh, about the same thing with me, except they had me on and exercise bike, one with arm movement, they didn't stop the physical(abuse) therapy till i lost control of my head.Kinda like Micheal J Fox at 1 point, I was crying and going insane. Spinal injury. I refused the shots!! Torn cartilage from center of my chest around the right to mid back, 1 bulging disk, 1 blown disk, now 2 blown disks, and constant pain mid back. The people working for ********* were working me like a 25 year old ox with no brains.(Because I talked about politics in public and they knew I hated BUSH)
BTW, A Real Life Example: Why We Need Single Payer, or At Least A Public Option.... Or at least?? I can see your money bought you some of the best brainwashing.
A couple of years ago, I got laid off, lost my insurance, and almost immediately got appendicitis. Well, rather than die, I went to the emergency room, explained I was unemployed, uninsured and had only so much savings. Well, they claimed to be okay with it. So, lo and behold, after I was out they wanted my ENTIRE life savings, and when I tried to pay what I could each week, they said it wasn't enough and refused it, and began a harassment campaign. They same thing happened about eight months ago on a smaller scale, when I got burned in an accident and the Emergency room said they'd take care of it as a charitable case. Guess what...more harassment. I swear, next time I have any life threatening illness or injury, I think I'm just gonna go ahead and die.
...m*****f*****s.
Hang in there, sisterbrother.
I'm just superstitious enough to hedge my bets.
.
pass the costs on to others that can afford insurance, doesn't mean that they won't still try to collect from you. When they can't collect they will turn it over to a collection agency.
funds.
they are just trying to double dip and get some extra money too... what did you think they were going to fix you and not save some fun for themselves? Ha!
That is standard operational procedure for a lot of incorporated Hospitals, most states can reimburse procedures for uninsured people. You'd be surprised the amount of fraud that goes into that venue... Heck some bean counters would make sure you are reported to a credit agency just because they are pissed to have to deal with the public reimbursement paperwork.
never ever, ever, ever go to a teaching hospital by a state school (or any school really) for routine procedures.
You get to be used as training material, and may end up having to pay a pretty penny for the honor.
That being said the sheer heartlessness of corporate hospitals makes free clinics and other reasonable medical practices that more special and humane.
Teaching hospitals offer state-of-the-art treatment and care. The medical students in such clinics are always well-read in the latest medical literature and they work under the supervision of experienced physicians. The physician is always in charge of the consultation, and the student is more of an observer. If anything, the patient is safer in such an environment.
Susie, I am disgusted at what you had to go through. It is simply outrageous that so many Americans have similar medical horror stories. The US healthcare system is in critical condition and, sad to say, I don't see anything changing soon. It saddens me greatly.
Regarding teaching hospitals.
When I was in L.A. I purposely went to a U.C.L.A. OB/GYN for a routine Pap smear just so I could get a U.C.L.A. Medical Center I.D. card and carry it in my wallet.
I figured with no medical insurance (I haven't had any in 25 years) if I got into a serious accident or had a massive heart attack or something they'd look in my wallet and see my U.C.L.A. card and at least I'd have a great chance of being saved!!!
As to the money...well, when you don't own anything (house etc.), rent your home, have one car, no credit cards (and no debt), no savings and live week to week, paycheck to paycheck....I figure there's nothing for them to threaten to take!!!
I've been boycotting the medical insurance companies for years. If a law passes where they're going to try to FORCE me to give any private corporate health insurance company a dime or FINE me....I'm afraid I'll have to sell all my stuff and go someplace where I can be treated like a human being and not a schmuck.
I've had it.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
:)
My better half ;-)
As I said, for routine procedures, stay away from teaching hospitals. Part of becoming a good doctor involving learning from your mistakes early on. Most of those mistakes happens in teaching hospitals... and yes, you are providing the training specimens for some of the students. Which would be "worth it" if the procedures were done at a reduced cost but they are not...
Heck even beauty schools have the decency of not charging full price for their haircuts.
If someone needs an endoscopy, colonoscopy, bronchoscopy, etc, they are referred to the appropriate specialist in that discipline, who performs the procedure. Medical students have nothing to do with it.
Someone must be the first recipient of a medical students first attempt to do a procedure...
In most cases the danger point is not in having a highly supervised neophyte.... nor is it in having an experienced professional who does lots of a procedure... but is most associated with a professional who performs a procedure infrequently.
The best doctors are there, at least at mine. I have been incredibly fortunate to have health care given me at the Univ of WA Med Center since 2001.
The one drawback is the turnover. While you are being treated by a physician, a resident is working at that doctor's shoulder. The residents, who you get to know really well if you are receiving treatment on a frequent basis, switch every three months, and at the end of 4 years go on to specialise. I miss them when they go. Last year a neighbour moved to NYC to study at Cedars-Sinai after his residency. Another neighbour is moving to practice rural medicine, and my GP is finishing up his fourth year. It's the 2nd one I've seen go. Just when I get them trained -- and they get younger each year, goddammit! :)
I have also been very fortunate to have residents going to medical school at UWMC live in my apartment building, and they have been the most fabulous neighbours to have, and have been like family to me. One was a neurosurgery fellow, a couple of MD phds, and two are going into rural medicine.
and I was fortunate enough to have 2 residents as roommates in my younger days, and one went into rural healthcare and his wife taught at the med school nearby and was a GP. But they were students once. And they needed to see patients. For routine stuff.
As a person who has been in the system for nearly 8 years, I can say the younger residents don't do major stuff on their own. And the 4th years will do some tests, but they've done it for years with supervision.
And I think there is a 'blase factor' with some docs out of school, who think they're the shit. I caught that stench rolling off a guy who had just been promoted to head of his dept (full fledged teaching doc) and I fired him. I was outraged by his attitude.
Anyway, I feel it is my duty to share the knowledge of my illness with people who can learn from it. Otherwise, it was all for nothing. But that's just me.
me-oww!
I can't imagine what you've gone through.
It's so true that you become close friends with your doctors. When they (the residents) move on to establish their own careers in specialized medicine, it's hard to see them go.
Alas, 'tis part of life and the ongoing cycle.
Good night, sweet miss_kitty. I'm thinking of you.
I just lost my job and am about to go on COBRA. After reading your article, I'm now curled up in the fetal position, vowing to never venture out of my house until I've got health care.
Good luck.
Is that you're unemployed, and that means you're not worried about losing your job if you need to take time off for physical therapy, etc.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
about being on COBRA.
..please pass your story onto senator Bernie Sanders and sign the petition for single payer healthcare.
http://sanders.senate.gov/petitions/index.cfm...
In a much shorter form, of course.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
:)
I should have known
:)
those politicians' little pea-brains.
;)
My wife and thought we were responsible when we had double incurance from both of our employers. We both had secondary coverage under the others package. When our first kid was born the delivery was under her insurance. When things got complicated a few hours later and our little guy spent a week in the NICU the agurment was that the kid is primary under the parent who's birthday comes first on the calendar. Her company fought that the NICU thing was an independant event and should be under mine and mine fought that it was birth related. This tooks us months to sort out and and insane about of time.
I'm a Canadian...you know, one of those people that your media are always telling you hate their health care system because of our insufferably long lines, and the inability to choose our own doctors?
Well, I broke my leg horribly a few years ago in a ski-doo accident in a fairly remote part of the country...the emergency room doctor told me the break was so bad that I would never walk again without a limp. My father was unwilling to take that for an answer and sought out two or three specialists a week or so later. We eventually found a surgeon who after a series of x-rays discovered the bone had been set improperly by the initial emergency room doctor, and immediately ordered surgery to re-set the leg before it fully recalcified. Within six months, I was walking fine, and haven't had the slightest twinge or problem ever since. The extra x-rays, extra consulting doctors, and surgery, altogether cost me a whopping NOTHING WHATSOEVER. I didn't wait even a full day for my surgery after the doctor saw my x-rays, and the initial doctor who set my leg even contacted me afterwards and apologized by phone. My entire bill was 25 dollars for the cost of an ambulance ride to one of the two second opinions I sought out.
My four kids were all born for free, the last two by midwives that my wife chose for herself, and my son's recent surgery for a testicular hernia cost me nothing whatsoever. He had the surgery two days after the discover of the hernia.
Every time your media tells you Canadians aren't happy with their health care, ask them why they're flat out lying to you. Because I've never, ever, ever met anyone in this country who would trade what we have for what you have. Not one person.
Ty Templeton
But tell that to "DocJ", the "libertarian" (i.e. Republican who's ashamed to call himself one) who posts on C&L claiming that the US has the "best health care system in the world" with Canadians running across the border to get away from the horrible system you have.
In the other thread, as it feels right-wing people are being picked on by the evil Left.
Bwahahahahahaaha!
You scared me!
:(
Keep in mind the "elective" vs. "necessary" issue. In Canada, "necessary" always gets priority, and "elective" gets you put on a waiting list. It is fairly common for people who want to have "elective" surgery to travel to the U.S. and pay to have it done rather than wait a couple of months to have it done here.
Susie's story would be deemed "necessary" and she would have gotten immediate treatment. But in some cases people will pay to avoid the wait.
The health care system is maintained by Provincial and Federal governments in a kind of "sharing the costs" scheme. Transfer payments help out the have-less provinces.
Unfortunately, regional governments can totally mess things up. For example, in Manitoba we had NDP government (let's call them "democrats") for a long time and things were fine. Then we got PC (let's call them "republicans") Federal government, who cut back on the transfer payments for health care. Nurses and doctors payments were cut at a result. Then we got PC Provincial government, who cut back on health care spending again.
Nurses and doctors left for other provinces (or Texas). Then we get the NDP back in because the PC's are screwing up the health care system. That's great, now there's money for health care, but all the nurses and doctors have fucked off for greener pastures and we have to wait for new graduates or immigrants to fill the void.
It's starting to get better now, but there was a long period of time where the service was very bad.
SO the moral is, do NOT go with a shared-cost federal/state system where one party can mess it up. It should be administrated by only the Feds with strict guidelines that can't be jerked around to move the money to some other pet project.
to lay that entire fiasco at the hands of the conservatives. The NDP election promises to build hospitals in just about every town and village caused them to invest huge amounts in bricks and mortar and did not leave enough for staffing and support. The net result was a lot of empty beds with no staff. A classic example of letting politicians and not professional allocate resources.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
and it shows up.
Good thing it's on ignore.
...go on and ignore facts like a good liberal.
Is they're so stupid they doesn't understand what ignore means.
He's Dr. Pepper, full of gas and empty calories. He's been trolling for hours and has not yet backed up a single fact. It's probably Glen Beck.
http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/healthcare...
doesn't equal quality.
"Facts" from a pro-corporate class war web site that uses "freedom" as a bullshit code word for people with money fucking the rest of us over.
Try again.
...links to articles in Canada's main stream media isn't legit in your eyes?
Smell what you shovel repug.
their MSM is any different than ours, like Fox?
These are corporate news sources that accept advertising. They are going to slant the news in favor of people/companies who pay their bills.
How exactly do they "slant" info when it's the Canadian gov't who is collecting data on things like waiting times?
figures don't lie, but liars figure.
Corporate media lie. FOX is the most egregious example of this, but government reports can be selectively edited to make them say anything. Not only that, but the government itself manipulates "facts" depending on which party is in power.
PROPAGANDA
...is collecting figures to make itself look bad...makes perfect sense.
in Canada is slanting stats to make a program they hate look bad, yes.
...but Canada hasn't always had a "conservative" gov't and the stats sucked then too.
This is the center rail of Canadian politics. Any politician who so much as suggested getting rid of universal health care would be making a career ending move.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
the "doctor" just keeps asking them? He's got nothing, except an unwarranted sense of superiority.
I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the articles. Canada's system is by no means perfect, but it *does* cover everyone and beats the American system in a number of areas. Just keep in mind that if you are looking for pimples you are going to find them. But girls with pimples can still have great legs.
that is government run. It doesn't prevent them from slanting the news to the right because they have corporate sponsers.
Some people think they are biased to favour whatever government is in power at the time (liberals vs. conservatives) but I never see any bias. They usually report the facts.
...next you're going to tell me that NPR is filled with fascists.
ignorant aren't you. I didn't suggest anything like that.
...if you think PBS is to the "right" when they're clearly in the tank for everything liberal Democrat then you're coming from a place so far on the left there leaves no room for credibility.
is that every single industrialized country in the west is delivering universal health care at lower cost than the US.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
...but the quality isn't even close. There's only two ways to cut costs in a "universal" system: rationing and lower reimbursement.
??????????????????????
Makes no difference. WHICH party is running the government? That's the question to ask.
Most of the links on the 'Canada' section of that site were to opinion pieces. A free-marketeer referring people to a free-marketeer website that defends free-marketeerism. I'm shocked.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206011...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-117...
"The overall five-year survival rate for all types of cancer for men in America is 66.3 percent, and 62.9 percent for women, the best outcome in the world."
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10190
Wow...They certainly don't have an agenda! Neither does Bloomberg... :-(
...they made up the cancer survival rate statistic?
statistics can be manipulated to say anything.
Bottom line: it's how people VOTE that matter. Like I said in another post, Thatcher did a quick about-face when she tried to privatize the NHS. Name me ONE European government, liberal or conservative, that advocates moving toward the "wonderful" American system you think we have.
Answer: none. It would be electoral suicide. These are actual people. YOU site all these bullshit stats from corporate media and libertarian think-tanks to "prove" your point.
European country is privatizing sectors of it's health care systems, especially Sweden.
"Privatizing" to what extent? Like the US? Horseshit.
"Name me ONE European government, liberal or conservative, that advocates moving toward the "wonderful" American system you think we have."
Is your definition of "move toward" adopting a clone of our system?
Although privatization is on the rise across Europe, it relies on government cooperation and subsidiies. In general, public and private merge to ensure that there are no doctors' bills for anyone.
Private insurers here in Spain provide the same 100%, unlimited medical coverage as the single-payer, Social Security system, using their own clinics and extensive array of specialists. Choice is greater for those who can afford it. Thanks to Social Security's cooperation, private-insurer doctors are allowed to issue prescription medicines for the same, offical, 70% discounts.
In a big way, the foundation of private care remains the single-payer system.
.
10 Surprising Facts about American Health Care: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba649
corporate hatchet site.
...follow the links and tell me the how the stats are wrong? Blaming everything on corporate jackasses isn't an argument.
Everyone with any education at all in political science or sociology knows that ideological interests influence statistics.
For example, would you like me to cite Marxist/socialist sources in support of single-payer health care? I could, but I won't. Why? Because you wouldn't believe a word of the "propaganda."
Bottom line: The system I support WILL lead to less freedom for people like you and MORE freedom for people who can't afford health insurance. There is no such thing as "freedom" in the abstract. Freedom goes to those who can pay for it. If giving priority to a poor woman whose child is suffering from epilepsy means making some rich Republicam wait 6 months to get her tits done, that's fine with me.
which is why it flew at supersonic speeds over the "doctor's" head.
...but when you get multiple sources coming to the same conclusion over and over there comes a point where truth is reached.
that's that bullshit "pluralism" argument that masks the realities of class power in this country.
to say anything they want them to. If you'd taken a class in statistics in college and didn't skip the first day, you would have learned that.
The right wing Huh? Who me? is old and doesn't work here.
Your source is tainted. Plenty enough reason there.
me-oww!
Not surprising, looking at the site on your acct page. Yeesh. DO you fancy yourself a messiah who will lead teh librul away from his/her wildly reasonable thoughts?
Give it up. You aren't even close to less than adequate for the job.
NCPA Board of Directors (partial listing)
* Pete du Pont, Former Governor of Delaware
* John C. Goodman, President, NCPA
* W. Mike Baggett, Esq., Chairman & CEO, Winstead Sechrest & Minick PC
* Don A. Buchholz, Chairman of the Board, SWS Group, Inc.
* Harlan Crow, Chairman, Crow Holdings
* Tommy Franks, CEO, Franks and Associates
* William J. Gedwed, President and CEO, HealthMarkets®
* John Victor Lattimore, Jr., President and Chairman of the Board, Lattimore Properties, Inc.
* Fred Meyer, Investments
* Henry J. "Bud" Smith, Chairman Bud Smith Organization
* James Cleo Thompson, Jr., Chairman of the Board, Thompson Petroleum Corporation
* Jere W. Thompson, President, The Williamsburg Corporation
* Michael L. Whalen, President & CEO, Heart of America Restaurants & Inns
* Raymond E. Wooldridge, Private Investor
* Robert J. Wright, President, TWG, Inc.
me-oww!
http://smartgirlnation.com/2009/06/01/popular...
all the people who got no treatment or whose treatments were cut off because they didn't have insurance or not enough? I thought not.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
This is an excellent example of a misleading statistic. Survival is generally considered 5 years. Rather than depending on outcomes it may well depend on when the cancer is detected. For example in the USA PSA tests are routinely used. This meas that prostate cancer will generally be detected at a younger age in the USA than in say the UK. Whether this changes how long you will live is highly debatable. But if you are detected earlier you will have a higher survival rate for 5 years. If you really are a DR. I think you should know about stuff like that. I am glad I am not your patient.
Further, some rationing depending on probably outcome clearly makes sense and should be part of any government system (The insurance companies clearly pick an choose what they will pay for). However, once you have a somewhat decent healthcare system, supplementary insurance for whatever bells you wish to add will surely be available.
the US has a much higher installed base of diagnostic equipment. Every hospital has to have these things or they couldn't advertise them. Utilization is another thing of course. The lower levels of utilization mean that individuals must pay more since the cost is spread over fewer patients. Now about those hoards of American traveling to third world countries for affordable health care? Any guess as to when that number will exceed the entire population of Canada?
Hasa Diga Eebowai
that's right wing crap. You don't think that American insurance companies want to move into the Canadian market. They're always trying to sell their product. (They're now trying to open up in the Korean market too, where I now live. Koreans already have a better state-run plan than America.)
We Canadians know our system is just fine, thank you.
far left loon >.<
As another Canadian .... I had open heart surgery in 2002. The only charge I got was one for $35 for a ambulance ride. (That I refused to pay.)
At the time I was unemployed and had come close to living on the streets - but even the drugs (so long as I was in the hospital) were paid.
He cites all these "statistics" from corporate/right-wing web sites, but actual CANADIANS chime in and tell us that their system is *gasp* really quite good.
"Imagine a Libertarian Hospital, *shudder*."
Seems apropos here also.
Your debating partner seems to have an agenda of their own, and it is not the position of a humanist or compassionate human being.
From DocJ's "blog":
"Like I've said in the past, health care is the last stand for real conservatives (admittedly cap and trade coming in a close 2nd). If we can't stop this massive power grab by the collectivist liberals then I can't see a way to completely roll it back once it's in place."
I read that statement as espousing politics over people.
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising liberty and justice for all
Once people realize people like DocJ are full of self-serving crap they won't want to go back.
Hasa Diga Eebowai
I don't understand what people like DocJ are afraid of..
Well, I do actually. People like him make a killing off of insuring only people who can afford to get sick, and they use all this bullshit "liberty" language to hide their class interests.
However, what really makes no sense are the health insurance companies who claim that a public option constitutes "unfair competition." What garbage!!
By DocJ's own admission, the government "screws up almost everything it touches." OK, if that's the case, then a public option would be so bad and run so incompetently that no one in their right minds would sign up for it. DocJ has nothing to be afraid of.
What these "freedom lovers" are afraid of is that government run healthcare might ACTUALLY WORK. That being the case, people will drop their private, for-profit insurance policies like sacks of shit. Then people like DocJ will actually have to find ways to make honest livings.
1.) How hard is it for an American to live in Canada?
2.) Where's the longest growing season there? Here in The Berkshires (although it isn't technically "summer" yet), it has been pouring rain/cloudy for days at around 65 degrees. My tomatoes are still about 5" tall and my sweet corn will be lucky if it's "knee high by the 4th of July".
3.) Where's the most progressive place to live there that is the most cultural and has the nicest people??
Thanks for responding.
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I'm insufferably pleased with my country, so forgive if these answers come off that way...
1) I've got lots of friends who are either landed immigrants or expat Americans, so it's probably not all that hard to get the paperwork.
2) Something like 90% of our population lives within 100 miles of the American border, so our growing seasons are the seasons you guys experience in Montana, North Dakota, Maine, Michigan, Upstate New York, Washington state, etc. Other than Edmonton and a few other small cities, not that many people live in the North of our country. Edmonton is bitter cold, yup, but we all think Edmontonians are a little nuts to choose to live there. I LOVE the city, but they're a little nuts. In fact, most of the settled parts of Ontario (the province that dips down into the US around the Great Lakes) is SOUTH of parts of California, geographically. I live in Toronto, and we have essentially the same weather you'd get in Albany, with some HOT summers, and fairly mild winters. GREAT wine growing soil in the Niagra valley, too.
3) Traditionally, our West coast (British Columbia, with the major city of Vancouver) is our far left province, with pot smoking hippies wandering the streets letting gay marriage be legal for years now. It's quite safe here, with very little crime... It's actually fairly common not to lock your doors in Canada, even if you live in a big urban area. (Ably demonstrated by a shocked Michael Moore in "Bowling for Columbine" where he tries the first dozen front doors on a typical street in Toronto and finds them all unlocked.) In Ontario, the courts refuse to hear pot possession cases, and dismiss them as unconstitutional when they are attempted (though some loony politicians are fighting to change that, there's no public support to lock up pot smokers whatsoever, with overwhelming majorities willing to take it off the law books entirely).
One non-political note: Besides health care, equal rights for gays, and an ability to have a puff outdoors and not worry about cops, my favorite part of living here is that we get all the American TV channels, AND we get British TV, AND we get Canadian TV AND we get French TV, in our cable packages, so our media is filled with many points of view from around the world, and not just what the corporation based stations wish you to hear.
According to the UN, Canada, Sweden and Switzerland are in a three way tie for the best countries to live in, a fact that anyone can easily look up and verify for themselves, and not merely take my word for it.
And just to finish off, I admit freely, Canada owes most of its culture and prosperity to the United States. We are utterly dependent on their economy and Navy for protection, so I'm not putting them down. Hell, Thomas Jefferson is one of my heroes, and the promise of the US constitution is possibly the greatest document espousing freedom ever written, so please no one think I'm an America basher, I'm absolutely not. I just like the health care, the large immigrant populations, the gay rights, and the excellent Television. We invite you all to come up and visit!
One last thing...I forgot to praise Montreal. If you don't mind the road signs in French (we're all taught French in school as kids) then it's probably my favorite city on Earth. Wonderful, friendly people, and a culture that is half way European, and half-way Canadian. Montreal gave the world Bill Shatner, so it gets points for that alone!
Have you ever considered a career in tourism?
ps, I love Bill Shatner!
:)
Ty -
That's got to be the most superficial description of Canada I've seen in a long time.
Your description of BC is a shopworn cliche. You appear not to know there is a LOT of crime in BC - a couple of years ago, we ranked 2nd in property crime in North America (after Florida), and the ongoing gang war in Vancouver and its suburbs has claimed hundreds of lives in recent years. The downtown area is blighted by addiction, homelessness, street crime and rampant AIDS. I do not exaggerate. Many tourists are appalled.
Toronto also has seen huge increases in gun crime. A lot of small towns across the country are no better.
You wrote: "It's actually fairly common not to lock your doors in Canada, even if you live in a big urban area." Uh, no. I don't know where you live (I've lived in Edmonton, Toronto and Vancouver), but nobody I've ever known leaves their doors unlocked. That's a myth from a Michael Moore flick. Anyway, you can't generalize about a country that stretches across 6 time zones.
Canada has less crime than the US, but that's not necessarily saying much.
I think you're spending too much time watching that "excellent television" you like so much.
Well, yes, my description of Vancouver was a cliche...I figured that was obvious by my wording about traditional pot smoking gay married hippies was ironic enough to spot the humourous exaggeration. And I promise you, I don't lock my front door at all during the day, and never have, and neither do my neighbours where I live in Toronto. You will find people lock them at night...but during the day, you'll find we don't lock up, whereas most Americans keep their doors locked 24/7. (I actually don't happen to lock my doors at night either, my front door lock broke about eight years ago, and I've never bothered to fix it, my street is as safe as you can find, and I own a big, big dog...but that's another story). You might have interpreted me to mean we NEVER lock the door, but I meant during the day, something most Americans do as a matter of course. My bad for not being more clear. I figure that's the way most people took my meaning, but I might be wrong. I think you'll find, in Toronto and Edmonton (two cities I have lived in) that people aren't that worried about home invasions all day. I can't speak for Vancouver, and if it's getting as bad as you say, then I'm truly saddened.
As for your "huge" increases in gun crime...the murder rate in Toronto has been as steady 50-60 murders per year for well over a decade now, even as the population increases. And the use in firearms in crimes hasn't increased dramatically according to statistics, only in media reports. This is for a city of over three million, I think it's higher than four million nowadays, and we still have less than sixty murders annually, still most of them domestics. That's astoundingly low. Toronto in the last year specifically, has had a few more shootings make it onto the TV than in the past, but we're still dealing with shockingly low numbers compared to any American city you can name, and the reporting of it is increasing while the stats themselves seem to be staying the same, at least per capita. The Jane-Finch corridor of Toronto has a nasty reputation, I'll admit, but it has for decades now, so it's not increasing, but merely staying our nasty zone. I wouldn't walk around wearing bling in Jane Finch at two in the morning, but I wouldn't have ten years ago either...
I'm very sorry to hear Vancouver is going to hell lately. I haven't been there in years. It was certainly a beautiful, safe city in the eighties/nineties when I used to visit there. As you're a resident, I bow to your experience and withdraw my comments, with an apology.
We're still vastly more progressive than our American neighbours on gay rights, pot laws, acceptance of immigrant populations, institutional racism, gun control, health care and the other things I named. Just because Vancouver is heading down a bad path, doesn't mean our country is deteriorating. Is Canada "perfect"? Probably not. Is it safe, friendly, and politically progressive? Hell yes! And I'm sorry to hear you're having a less wonderful time living here than I am. But I'm a gay rights addicted pot smoking hippie myself, and spend my day smiling til it hurts my cheeks.
Peace and love, bruther.
Every time your media tells you Canadians aren't happy with their health care, ask them why they're flat out lying to you. Because I've never, ever, ever met anyone in this country who would trade what we have for what you have. Not one person.
As another Canuck, this is bang-on.
Here in Australia, where we have one of those abhorrent, "socialist" universal health care systems, you would have been seen to immediately and without cost. (Unless you were foolish enough to belong to a private health fund, when you would have had to pay a large 'gap' payment...but then you'd have the advantage of getting a free pair of running shoes or some other 'benefit'.)
If any politician dared to try and do away with our public health care system, it would trigger scenes reminiscent of what you see now in Tehran. Except the public would be armed with pitchforks and actively seeking out the shithead who dared propose such a thing.
Is this about healthcare or corporate profits? When pain and suffering is an economic engine bad things happen.
SINGLE PAYER!
I just wrote and deleted my own long and ongoing insurance nightmare. Too boring for others to read, and we all have such stories.
I will say this though. After spending 2 years in Canada for work and coming back to this system, our way does indeed seem totally insane. Before that time as an ex-pat, I had a "thats just how it works" mentality about our system. After two years of just going to the doctor and having them treat you, no questions, no problems, our labyrinthian system truly seems like it was based on a nightmare by Franz Kafka.
It is absolutely ridiculous what this country puts up with as "normal" and those who fear tampering with the "best system of the world" really need to get out more. Sadly, I have little faith in the Democrats properly fixing this. We need a complete overhaul.
That, I'm afraid, is the great stumbling block to reform in the US. The American way is "normal", indeed "best". Anything done elsewhere, indeed everywhere else, is by definition "worse". No further thought required.
What I don't understand is this comment I keep hearing, "If you're happy with the coverage you have you don't have to change.." How many people are really happy with the coverage they have?
When your employer goes cheap on health insurance, like mine does, you don't really have health insurance. It's more like medical coupons. And they definitely limit what treatments you can get.
I imagine most people who are "happy" with their coverage are people who have never had to use it. Until recently I've never really used my health insurance. I'm 40+ without ever really needing much more than Tylenol.
When I actually needed my health insurance for a hernia surgery, my portion was over 1,400.00. Thankfully I could afford it, but I imagine there are a lot of people (including people in my company) that couldn't.
I can relate to ankle injuries, having twisted one of mine too many times. I remember being grilled by my insurance company (when I had coverage) the last time it happened. I stumbled on a broken, uneven sidewalk in the old part of town. But they treated me more like a problem than an injured person.
It's unbelievable how screwed up this country's healthcare/insurance system has become. There's nothing more infuriating than doctors and insurance companies like those you describe, all too common today. Thanks for telling your story, there needs to be many more such horror stories spelled out so the message gets through the thick skulls of our "representatives" in DC.
The moral of the story is:
In America, if you are, or even might be a poor peon, even if you think you have health insurance. If you are injured on a high bridge, it will be best to jump off, DO NOT bother with the health care system. They want you to die, certainly they want you to just go away. After you pay your premiums of course.
If you try to deal with them, you will wish you had died.
statusquObama, change you can only pretend in
...the private sector is always better! And then I woke up.
Just curious Susie, why didn't you go after the tow truck company since you fell from their truck? This sounds like a case most lawyers might take and I'm sure the tow truck's insurance company would have had to do something for you. Of course this doesn't help the mess our health care is in today but it might have helped you with your medical bills.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
And the first attorney I consulted told me I couldn't sue because I have the cheapest no-tort option.
A few months ago, I found out he was wrong. Because the involved vehicle was owned by a corporation, I can sue. I did retain an attorney, but the (politically connected) tow truck company operates under several names and is refusing to accept his letters.
Figures, huh?
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
Keep at it. Get another attorney. If he or she files against the tow truck company they have to respond. At least here they do. If you have a bill for the original tow truck fees, I would guess that you go after that company name. I'm guessing if you can find a pit bull personality type attorney, you can get some action.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
I think he'll take care of it.
A former award-winning journalist and lifelong class warrior, keeping a jaundiced eye on the Washington elite.
That's good to hear. Remember to let us know how it goes from here. :)
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. But don't say it mean.
Because of all the pain and suffering you've experienced, plus you have the diagnostic records to back up the fact that you were seriously injured. It has seriously impacted your life!
I wish you the best in any case your lawyer brings! You deserve to be made whole in this mess!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
defendant. There are several really good methods. Avoiding service just indicates that they don't have a good lawyer or any lawyer. Get 'em!
...client, I have found it to be smooth, efficient, and solid-paying--all that for a paltry 3% in administrative costs.
I live in Western Canada. Like all Canadians, I have public health insurance.
Several years ago, I had orthopedic surgery to repair the ligaments in my right ankle. I had sprained it so many times over 20 years that the joint was chronically unstable. I got a referral to an orthopedic surgeon. He happened to be the team doctor for the local NHL hockey team - the same guy who treated the joints of multi-million dollar athletes worked within the public system and fixed my non-athlete ankle.
After seeing him, I waited 6 weeks for the surgery. This was no a problem - I could walk, I was not in pain, the operation was not an emergency. If it had been, I would have been moved up the list.
He repaired the joint by creating a new ligament using a piece of tendon, anchored to a hole drilled in my ankle bone. I spent a day in hospital afterward and wore a cast for 6 weeks. This was removed at a follow-up visit to the surgeon and I was prescribed a couple of months of rehab. My ankle has been perfect ever since. I didn't pay a cent out of pocket other than my monthly insurance premium (now $54/month). No deductible, no copay, no user fee, nothing.
The same year, my sister in Nevada had surgery to remove painful bone spurs in her heel. She had no health insurance. The procedure involved surgery, the insertion of a temporary steel rod, six weeks in a cast and removal of the cast and rod.
She paid cash for the surgery, insertion of rod and cast. As luck would have it, she hit the wall financially, partly because she couldn't work with the cast on. After 6 weeks she contacted her doctor's office and was told they would not remove the cast and rod without cash payment or proof of adequate credit. There was nothing for her to do but leave the cast on until she could come up with the money.
The cast stayed on another month or so before she could get the money together. During this time, her heel became very painful - an obvious indication of infection. Eventual removal of the cast and rod revealed infection of both soft tissue and the heel bone. This was painful, required treatment with antibiotics, and increased her recovery time. Had the follow-up surgery been delayed further, and the infection become worse, it could have resulted in permanent damage to her foot.
I can tell other stories like this - I bet any Canadian with family in the US can.
Single-payer is the only way to go.
From osteomyelitis (bone infection).
I'm actually surprised she didn't remove the damn cast herself. My son had a broken arm (skateboarding) when he was 13 and the day we were supposed to have the cast removed they called and said the appt. would have to wait until over the weekend since the doctor had an emergency surgery to do.
Sure enough the little shit and his friends got a SAW and some lopers from the garden shed and took the cast off themselves!
Thank God your sister had a successful recovery IN SPITE of the health care she received!!!
"The US has an army of 90,000 soldiers in Afghanistan and is spending $100bn a year, but has still been unable to defeat 20,000-25,000 Taliban who receive no pay at all." - Patrick Cockburn
I have good health care and through the years with various things I've had to have done it's been great. With that said we need reform for the people that don't have what I've got. I work for the state and have a union job and with the large pool of people our benefits are good. Single payer now!
wow, that doctor is a nightmare.
My husband is Canadian and he can't believe what he see's here.
Years ago my son had to undergo surgery, it was a life and death situation. The behaviour of the Dr's was unbelieveably childish and frightening. I have never sreamed so loud in a public place before. I gave them 24 hrs to straighten out their shit and fix my child. Before they took my son to surgery one of the Dr.s actually called my Dad of all ppl and said I was mean. My son was out of surgery in 7 hours. during the waiting period I sat in the chapel to meditate, a young couple came in crying. Their child had just passed, the Drs wouldn't operate because their insurance was insufficient. I was mortified. They were told they should have taken him to a county facility and even tho this was one of the best hosp in the country for children...they were turned away. I will never ever forget any of this and when I hear these bloated politicians whine about insuring it's citizens, my ears bleed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OkA-vS-cV0
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
Stunning video! Any idea where it was filmed?
No idea
The seemed to like the Caribbean
But it's their only song I like.
Diabolus est Deus Inversus
that's what medicine has morphed into. your situation is a prime example of profit margin before quality personalized patient care. i'm very familiar with this scenario. you summarized your situation/care and it's all about situational chaos,fragmentation and confusion. orthopedic/physical medicine cases often involve grey areas/individual possibilities. because of that it requires some extra time but the system doesn't allow for that time. the assembly line system is set up indirectly by the insurance industry and directly by the physician. more pts. more profit. they hope pts.don't ask questions. because these cases are non life threatening some (not all) physicians take risk sometimes against their own best interest. why because they can,non life threatening.. it's grey area. pts. often aren't treated on a case by case basis. just a number type mentality. it's set up now, where you often have to fend for yourself. unless you buy cadillac health ins. cortisone is the quick fix for quick medicine at times it's effective but often not effective. clinics that move at blinding speed can and do make mistakes/overlook nuances of a case.
A few years ago I was "boogy-boarding" with my kids at beautiful Hull Beach in Massachusetts. At one point my ankle got twisted in the sand, and I was limping around for the rest of the trip. I waited a few days to go back to Canada to have it looked at.
My family doctor looked at it (it was really messed up) and sent me for an MRI. And I got one! Simple as that. It wasn't a long wait, but it also wasn't an emergency. And treatment followed, with my own doctor.
How much did it cost me? $0. Oh, wait, I think I paid for parking at the hospital.
I just can't believe what you guys put up with. Susie, I hope your ankle heals.
Oh, wait . .
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sicka...
how germany,switzerland,japan,taiwan and the u.k. do it.
and remember CHINA is getting ready to implement universal healthCare/social insurance.
can they all be wrong?
Country. You see, we are too just dumb and incompetent to make what works in France, Germany, UK, Canada, Belgium, Netherlands, Denmark, Japan, Australia, Spain, Luxumberg, Norway, Sweden, Ireland, Taiwan, Switzerland, Iceland, Finland, and dozens of other countries work here. Those are places where the people are so much smarter than we are that they have cracked the impossible puzzle of providing quality health care to their population.
Some simple facts: The US ranks 37th in the world in the overall quality of health care - although it is the most 'responsive' (if you have the money).
The US spends MORE per person on health care than any other country in the world - yet we are ranked 37th.
Tax dollars pay more than 60% of all health care costs in the US.
After the US, the most expensive health care system in the world is France's. They are ranked the BEST in the world in the quality of health care delivered.
France spends LESS per person for health care than the US spends in tax dollars per person for health care.
IF we were as smart as the French, we could give better health care to our entire population, without using any private dollars, fees or premiums, while reducing taxes.
Every politician who says we can't afford universal health care, that it will cost more, that it will reduce quality of care, is actually saying we are the DUMBEST PEOPLE IN THE INDUSTRIALIZED WORLD.
you are better off without insurance. doctors are happy with pay as you go, most give good discounts for cash. especially since insurance payments run about 30% and doctors have to spend huge sums on paperwork and then wait months to get paid.
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