U.S. Launches Offense Against Taliban in Afghanistan; Pakistan Blocks Militants At Border
By Susie Madrak Thursday Jul 02, 2009 12:00pm
With this escalation, the mess in Afghanistan becomes the Democrats' war - and Obama's. Good luck with that, fellows:
American marines and Afghan troops poured into southern Afghanistan today in the first major test of Barack Obama's strategy to wrest the initiative from the Taliban.
Daybreak brought the sporadic crackle of gunfire but no immediate heavy fighting as the offensive in Helmand province began shortly after 1am local time near the village of Nawa, about 20 miles south of the provincial capital, Lashkar Gah. Insurgents in Helmand – a Taliban stronghold – have for years put up stubborn resistance against British troops.
Waves of helicopters landed marines in the valley, a crescent of opium poppy and wheat fields crisscrossed by canals and dotted with mud-brick homes. The marines disembarked and fanned out into the fields as the sun rose. Hundreds more arrived in convoys through a barren area known as the desert of death.
In a simultaneous operation, Pakistan deployed troops on its border to stop militants fleeing into its territory.
As the offensive began the US military said one of its soldiers had been captured in Paktita province, in eastern Afghanistan. He was not involved in the operation. The Ministry of Defence reported the deaths of two British soldiers in Helmand; six other Nato soldiers were injured by the same improvised explosive device (IED).
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Obama is planning to use war as his deus ex machina, too. In case it hasn't quite sunk in yet. He needs his war now called “Overseas Contingency Operations,” which should cause the Bush spin-meisters to blush with envy) as a means of bootstrapping the American economy.
And his re-election. Don't forget we can't change leaders in the middle of a war.
Aren't we in Afghanistan trying to fix what GWB screw up and yes, get the guys who did 9/11? Aren't we after Bin Laden?
Please don't delete this post. Instead, start making sense.
..I want to know the same thing. Are we after OBL or not? The Taliban continues to threaten Afghanistan and Pakistan. It looks like Pakistan is actually engaging with us.
And speaking of W, isn't it time he be charged with War Crimes?
He's important when a Republican administration thinks he can be found, unimportant when the Republicans can't find him and important again when a Democrat can't find him.
Afghanistan is considerably different from Iraq. Unlike Saddam Hussein, Sheik Omar and the Taliban really did give aid and comfort to a terrorist network. One of the many tragedies of Iraq is that we might have had the resources to win the war in Afghanistan had we not been side tracked.
Ya, Bush ruined everything. Then he started torturing and wiretapping.
I may be losing my marbles, but it seems to me that the original post was directly criticizing Obama for the offensive in Afghanistan and portraying his like the rest of the republican chickenhawks. Is there something going on here?
Bin Laden is dead ... died in 2003 ... 911 was a false flag operation in order to have perpetual wars with never ending profits for the elite that run this country. I think Matt Taibbi said something like organized greed always wins over disorganized democracy. He's right. Far too many young are being suck into the war machine. obama is continuing where the bush regime left off. When I check obama's voting record and the DNC ... I figured this would happen. I find it very difficult to celebrate the 4th. With all the crimes being committed by the US government all I can do is hang my head in shame.
We’re not behind a plow.
We’ll never get rich diggin’ a ditch.
We're in the Army now.
No more we'll have to hear,
"How late will you be, dear?"
We go where we please.
And do what we please.
We're in the Army now.
http://www.authentichistory.com/ww2/music/194...
I recently had drinks with a Major from the US Marine Corps stationed in The Netherlands. He's a black McCain supporter from my home state of NC so I really wanted to hear what he had to say about, well, everything because how rare is he?
He's firmly behind stabilization efforts in Iraq but when asked about Afghanistan his face clouded over and he just shook his head.
..McCain having Palin as a VP?
He knew the campaign was in trouble before the pick and saw it as a Hail Mary.
The troops had nothing to say about Palin. The writing was on the wall with that pick. Palin didn't sway the enlisted who were on the fence.
Vietnam will look tame in comparision. Make that a very good chance if it keeps escalating into neighboring countries.
Welcome to the
showwar that never ends...this time, they'll listen to the Generals. And, if they have actionable intelligence on the whereabouts of OBL, they won't be ordered away.
And speaking of W, isn't it time he be charged with War Crimes?
Show me proof that bin laden was involved in 9/11.
You can't. He isn't even charged with it.
..you can probably find them somewhere or wait long enough and ysbaddaden will post them.
Those videos prove nothing. The most famous video isn't even OBL. WAKE UP! OBL=GOLDSTEIN!
The video where he's laughing and relaxing with his friends, looks 20 pounds heavier, using the wrong hand, and speaking with a Western accent. That video. Or the one where his beard has miraculously gone back to being black after being gray for years.
and his nose is totally different and he's wearing a gold ring, ya that one!
Just For Men...wash away the gray in Just Five Minutes!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot4jFZ_owhs&fe...
for their help in capturing him.
Even FBI Director Robert Mueller admitted, "In our investigation, we have not uncovered a single piece of paper – either here in the U.S. or in the treasure trove of information that has turned up in Afghanistan and elsewhere – that mentioned any aspect of the September 11th plot."
Bin Laden himself (the real one before he died in 2003) stated back in 2001 he had nothing to do with it. And since the government has fail to produce any evidence showing he did ... I have to take Bin Laden at his word.
No one was looking for Osama Bin Laden. The war in Afghanistan was about an oil pipeline, and possibly the re-establishment of the opium trade.
Does anyone with common sense think that OBL would still be hiding in a country that was occupied by the US for 7 years
Thank you!
Unocal
Knowing that soldier was captured is frightening. Hopefully they will not stoop to the depths bush did and torture him.
..its so hard to convince the American public of the necessity of war crimes trials for the W crime family/torturers/torture enablers is the fact that THEY will stoop to those depths.
We do hope the best for all of our troops and right now, that one in particular!
And speaking of W, isn't it time he be charged with War Crimes?
This may not be a convenient time to bring the war crimes case against W, but it never is a convenient time.
Yep ... long time ago ... along with the rest of his crime regime. Unfortunately obama's breaking the law himself ... and he knows better too ... so he would have to be charged as well ... many of the elite in Washington ... the ones that control the DOJ ... would have to be put in jail and some would be in line for the death penalty and they simply can't have that!
What's ten of thousands lives of peons compare to the live of one elite?
Given what the Taliban did to captured Russian aircrews and what they're doing to ethnic Tadjiks now, any military prisoners will be lucky just to get murdered out of hand (unless they wind up as bargaining chips or propaganda pieces).
This is not "truther" material. We can't prove guilt or have indicted anyone for 9/11. That's a fact. So how could we invade Afghanistan with no proof bin laden or the Taliban were behind it?
Because it is good for the Defense Industries that's why we invaded.
We need a war!
HUH?
Look, we know that members of a terrorist group called al-Qaeda hijacked four jets and flew them into buildings. Their leader was a man named Osama bin Laden and he was being protected by the Taliban leaders of Afghanistan. Our President at the time told us he was going to get the SOB and then proceeded to F things up over there in a major way. I'm sorry if this offends you, but I still want the SOB who killed my friend, my neighbors and fellow citizens! Again, if W and the crime family didn't screw things up as well as make his rich pals richer, maybe there would be some justice in the world.
Look, we know that members of a terrorist group called al-Qaeda hijacked four jets and flew them into buildings.
How? Who said? Show me proof! You can't. It doesn't exist. That's not truther that's fact.
Their leader was a man named Osama bin Laden and he was being protected by the Taliban leaders of Afghanistan.
Given that statement was true, and there is no proof to substantiate it, the Taliban said, "Show us proof and we will hand him over to you". We don't have the proof so Cheney invaded.
I'm sorry if this offends you, but I still want the SOB who killed my friend, my neighbors and fellow citizens!
It's not offensive, it's sad. The guys that "allegedly" flew the planes were Saudis and Egyptians. Want to invade those countries?
protected bin Laden for years and continue to do so....
And hey theys got oil! Oh wait though bin Laden told bushco he had to get US troops out of Saudi Arabia so I guess we won't be invading that non-democratic, non-secular repressive monarchy anytime soon.
Exactly!!
Now, some of the people alleged to have flown the planes are now walking around today in the middle east? Or is this just a rumor? You'd think it's just nonsense, or they would come appear on American TV...
All i can say is that an investigation should take place. The magnitude of the crime should not be a barrier to accountability. I really want to know how things like that happen, and how they might happen again. Duh!
but ...we don't know that members of a terrorist group called "Al-Qaeda" hijacked four jets ... we were told they did ... with no evidence to back what we where told ... many accepted it ... others like myself did not and still don't. I want the real people behind 911 brought to justice and I don't think that is asking too much. I want a non-partisan, independent,investigation where witness much testify under oath with penalty of perjury and in public ... something they didn't do during that phony commission. No suppression of evidence ... no suppressing witness ... no talking to key witness behind close doors with no transcript ... follow the evidence where ever it leads ... Until then I will always believe 911 was another US false flag operation.
Yes, it was peculiar that within hours the bad guy was named, the plot exposed and the punishment ready.
Kinda like the obits they have ready in case a celebrity gives up the ghost.
Or maybe it was to assure us all as to how they were right on top of things.
Them on top and the public on the bottom.
Guess who gets screwed.
Just because people are using logical thought and don't want to see more human beings dying for no good reason. Now we're to be lumped in with conspiracy theorist.
There's no reason for the war in Iraq,and no reason for the war in Afghanistan. If Obama and the Democrats were really the champoins of the people they would have ended both wars back in 2006 when they took the majority. In my opinion this makes them more criminal than the Republicans. At least the Right wingers believe their own garbage. Democrats say they are against it when they are out of office and then give every excuse as to why they can't stop it once they get in office.
you rock!! a perfect synopsis!!
It doesn't have to be. Obama could have used some common sense and told all the troops to come home.
I hate to break to everyone but there are no terrorist in Afghanistan. Osama is probably dead, if in fact he was real at all, and the Taliban were our homeboys until they told American business that they could not put an oil pipeline through their country.
So what are we going to do now. Drop more bombs and shoot up more goat herders, until what? Until there are no people left in the area.
than most.
Wow. When you put it that way, that's depraved.
Let's do what we did in Vietnam: declare victory and get the hell out.
We didn't capture OBL, so what we're doing there now is complete bullshit.
of last resort for super imperialism (now morphing into exterminism). It is already on the table.
And didn't they get their butts kicked?
just like the British?
Even Alexander the Great knew enough to leave these people alone...
If you haven't read "Confessions of a Economic Hit Man" please grab a copy and read it. It sheds a whole new light on the relationships countries have with one another and why.
ah, i guess TAP is back in the works...
obama (like israeli policy, and bush, and a whole succesive group of leaders and misleaders) believes that the way to fight terrorism is to create a whole new batch of terrorists. the mind reels.
..we only have W to thank for all of this.
And speaking of W, isn't it time he be charged with War Crimes?
i throw a much wider net
but, that aside, bush and his merry band of war criminals are past due for a war crime trial.
"THE WAR ON TRUTH" 9/11, Disinforrmation, and the anatomy of terrorism. The powers that be (Energy Corporations) care more about profits and controling the resources than the world or our or Arab lives.
.
Especially when the current regime are continuing the same policies
his coterie of zany academics convinced him there would be some kind of cascade effect of Westernization that would magically ripple through the region. Oops.
we right the wrongs, rebuild the country, and create a stable and vibrant democracy in Afghanistan . . for our oil to flow through.
This is all a result of Boosh failing to do his job right the first time. He closed the office that was pursuing Bin Laden.
Was the Afghan gov't responsible for 911? No.
Was there a govt' representing Afghans at the time? No. It was the Taliban.
Due to Boosh's catastrophic failure, the Taliban have grown in strength and numbers. To the point that even Pakistan is under threat.
So? What do we do?
I'd like to see all of our troops come home . I'd like to see our troops be home.
But due to Boosh and Cheney, they tied Obama's hands on this.
Someone has to finish this. It won't fix itself.
I truly am sorry for the soldier that was captured. His fate is sealed.
But what do we do now?
Ignore it and hope it takes care of itself?
DID represent the Afghan nation before 911, ask your government. They dealt with them happily. Even giving aid. Bullshite about the Taliban growing in strength and numbers. Propaganda BS. How much is enough? When is enough? It's incredible that sheep on both sides of the left and right, know that their leaders are lying "sometimes" but believe claptrap bogus BS knowing that is exactly what it is. Every g-damn goat or wedding bombed, and the justification is that Taliban boogeyman, just like Bushie used the Al Keeda myth. It's a myth. Why people don't see that is way beyond me. If someone was in your nation for 7 years killing and bombing, you don't think you'd try to do anything possible to get rid of them? I sure as hell would, regardless what pet name they called me.
And if these asshats had rammed those planes into Toronto, you'd feel the same, wouldn't you?
C'mon CC, you can't be stupid all of your life.
did anyone from Afghanistan ram planes into anything? When did Al Keeda ram planes into anything? When was that ever proven by anyone? IT WASN'T. C'mon mudshark, you aren't as stupid as these politicians want you to be.
Osama was on the FBI most wanted list, but NOT for 911.
In case you didn't notice, OBL laid claim to all of it.
You can paint it any way you want. You can come up with all of the conspiracy theory's you want. But the fact is that clown laid claim to it. And the Taliban were harboring him in Afghanistan. Is he there now? Don't know. But his cohorts are.
And I'm sick of this shit.
Lets just get it over with and bring our troops home.
People claim to commit crimes 24/7!! Doesn't mean they did it!
We aren't talking theory we are talking fact and what can be proven.
Read more and you would know that the Taliban works for Pakistan!! And we gave pakistan $10B to fight their own creation!!!
And I'm sick of this shit.
Lets just get it over with and bring our troops home.
AGREED!!
Too many unnecessary deaths all around already. I'm just sick to death of governments lying their asses off to their people. At least they can tell the truth as to why they are there, and it sure as heck isn't a war on terror, and it sure as heck isn't for OBL.
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinla...
No mention of 911. Why? They have NO PROOF. But both Dems and Reps use him as the guilty party, don't they? As for harbouring terrorists, did the 911 guilty people according to the government, not get trained in the US? Doesn't that mean the US was actually harbouring them? Maybe the Taliban should be bombing Chicago.
How else would they know who was responsible?
Not to mention OBL laid claim to it.
go ahead, have at ,I'm done here.
how many years and how many deaths mudshark? How much is enough? Until all the brown people the government says are evil are killed? Half them? Three quarters? They bomb weddings and funerals and justify it with calling them terrorist slogans. When does it end? And IF some boogeyman group of thousands is responsible for 911, why have they not bombed the US again since? It sure isn't Bushies Homeland Gestapo stopping anything. It's a farce.
That it won't happen again?
Clinton got it right. He captured and prosecuted those who were responsible for the 1st WTC bombings.
If you think this is over, I've been giving you wayyy to much credit.
We don't know. Our government is so corrupt we can't believe them. We just want to stop killing brown people!
Genocide of all of Afganistan and Pakistan?
Boosh's negligence led us to this point.
Along time ago, miss_kitty questioned me on this.
And she was right. We never should have gone in there.
Or Iraq. But that's not the reality of the situation now. Obama's hands are tied. WE Have to do something now. Due to Boosh's ignorance.
Hey, I'd love to see all of our troops be at home safe and sound. I'd love to see the end to all of the killing.
But that's not the reality of the situation now.
Personally, I think Boosh went into Afghanistan and Iraq to flank Iran. If McCain was elected, you can bet your bottom dollar that Iran would have been bombed by now.
I just want it to end.
The Taliban did get stronger in Pakistan. To a point that they threatened the Pakistani Govt'
I said a few months ago that Pakistan would push the Taliban west into Afghanistan where they would be confronted with the US forces. That's what's happening now.
I just want this over.
But do you really think, that there would be any thing resembling anything remotely stable if we were to just pack up and leave?
Sorry, I know alot of people won't like this opinion.
But what is a viable alternative with long lasting peace in the region? I don't like it. But there it is.
I agree 100%, mudshark. Afghanistan WAS harboring OBL, but Bush didn't catch him and now we're in a war there for.....what?
Bring 'em ALL home NOW!
admitted to doing 9/11? The fat one or the skinny one?
The only time 'Osama' admitted to knowing about 9/11 was in a poorly done propaganda video, which the US put out a few days after the Skinny 'Osama' said he had nothing to do with it.
How about some links showing both of these said videos.
I must have been asleep when this all happened.
Here's a link to the video of the fat bin Laden supposedly confessing to 9/11 that was released by the DOD. Unfortunately, this bin Laden doesn't even look like the real bin Laden.
bin Laden Tape confessing 9/11
Below are excerpts from an interview he did that appeared in the Karachi daily Ummat. This is believed to be the last real interview with bin Laden and he flatly denies any involvement.
Your 1st vid proves my point. The link with it is worthless.
Your lower link, not credible. Try again Truther.
all the link proves is that a fake bin laden confessed to 911 ... please explain why the FBI doesn't have it listed as one of his crimes?
And Zawahiri and the others were fake to.
It was all staged. The US govt' did it.
The US govt' attacked the WTC and brought them down to the ground killing almost 3000 people. And causing Hundreds of MILLIONS of dollars in damage. Crippling the Airline industry. Stunting the economy of this country.
Yep, That's what happened. OKeeDoekee.
You are certifiably nuts.
In case you didn't notice, OBL laid claim to all of it.
No he didn't ... in fact he said he had nothing to do with it back in 2001 ... the only Bin Laden I've seen claiming he did it was in the fake tapes and videos the bush regime put out.
I agree about bringing the troop home.
Show me the proof of that.
What I recall was him saying that they got more than they had imagined.
He didn't expect them to come down.
I don't know where you were during all of this. But I remember this very well.
Now maybe you can show us another tape with the real bin Laden claiming he did 9/11?
You proved my point.
doyoueverwonder had provided it ... nuff said.
The truther conspiracy nuts are out in force.
I refer you to my above comment.
I watched your supposed facts. Bullshit.
Try again.
And sprittooo.
Don't let him do all the work for you.
Prove your assertions. His was bogus. What have you got?
to provide some proof. So far all you've got are insults.
You haven't proven a damned thing
Try again. Your the one saying some bullshit.
Give me some real credible evidence.
Your last effort proved I was right.
As much as you want to believe that there's some kind of conspiracy here, you haven't proved it. Try again.
It's not our job to prove anything ... our job is to get an non partisan independent investigation ... where witness testify under oath in public ... there is more than enough evidence that warrant it no matter how much you like to deny it.
It's not our job is bullshit.
I can say the moon is made of cheese, and you need to prove it's not . That's bullshit
Hey, I'm all for the investigation. Got no problems with that.
But this conspiracy nut crap is bullshit unless you can prove it without a shadow of a doubt. That's the way it works.
Oh yeah, I checked your link.
WAY TOO MANY PROBABLE'S
Just in case you happened to not have noticed, every separate comment had Probably in it.
Try again.
Didn't we have a 9-11 Commission hearing?
Yep. I don't have a whole lotta confidence in that one either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PGmnz5Ow-o
I guess spirittoo works for booshco
you figure I work for "booshco" ... that's a leap.
You mean where no one had to testify under oath ... where witnesses and evidence of explosions were ignored... that commission? ... where bush and cheney got to go behind close doors and "testify" ... that commission? ... where both parties when out of their way to block evidence and testimony ... that commission? If you want to call it that ... it was more of a dog and pony show ... nothing more.
Yeah ... it's always easy to go into "conspiracy nut" mode when you can't back the governments lies about 911 with evidence. He wasn't bogus. Plenty ...but I'll post just one.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/osa...
and there is this to ... note they did quote the source and the date ...
http://911review.com/articles/usamah/khilafah...
Give me something credible. You Know, Authentic. Not some damned truther link.
Geezzuusssss. I could make one of those.
And I'll bet I'd get some people to believe it too.
Next. Stop wasting my time.
If you can't give me something real and credible, stop wasting my time.
Date and time?
oyyy
You haven't provided any evidence that the government isn't lying. It may be a "some damn truther link" but I have yet to see you offer anything to dispute what was provided. The link clearly prove the video the government put out was fake and you have nothing to dispute it other than "some damn truther link" ... pretty obvious you got nothing put talking points ... No you are wasting my time. You can do nothing but call names ... I've made better people than you look like a complete ass on this issue... and it would be easy with you since all you do is shoot your mouth off with no backing ... easy as pie ... but a waste of my time. We provide proof it's not our problem you can't comprehend it ... nuff said.
But what I see is OBL claiming that he did it. Or at least planned it.
I would consider this( just for you mind you) to be compared to the Manson murders.
Old Charlie didn't kill anyone, did he?
But he planned it. And put everthing in motion to make it happen.
And that link by DoYouEverWonder, That proves beyond doubt that he did that very thing.
But hey, I'm tired of this conversation.
Believe what you want.
Be sure to check under your bed before you go to sleep tonight. There might be a govt' spy down there.
n/t
He has certainly capitalized on the event in his recruiting efforts.
Oh Canada!!!
The "alleged" flyers were Saudis and Egyptians. I say alleged because NO Arab names appear on the flight manifests of any of the 9/11 planes.
But if they did do it, should we invade Saudi and Egypt?
Hmmm?
and therein lies the horrible problem.
what is victory?
how will it be 'finished'?
the more civilians, children, elderly people, and women that are killed--either purposefully or accidentally--the more the population views the 'coalition' forces as the enemy. the central govt is about as effective as it is popular (which is to say it is not), and the locals, given a vote, would hardly vote for the american puppet leader.
so, american forces are sent into a horrible situation. they are to fight the taliban, other warlords, al qaeda, you name it. but, as has happened time and time again, civilians are the majority of the casualties in afghanistan, creating more and more enemies of the coalition troops. it is a vicious cycle.
do we just pull out and let it all fall apart?
do we force more troops in the country, and end up creating more incentive for people to turn militant?
tough questions...
What does "fixing" mean?
What have we ever "fixed"?
What do we do? Go home and stay home, defund Israel, stop importing oil, build a green economy, become a nation of laws and morals instead of consumption and hate. That's what we do. Let those goat herders kill each other, when they get tired they will quit.
WE CANNOT FIX ANYTHING WE ONLY BREAK WHATEVER WE TOUCH!
jhunter for President! You've got my vote! That's the most intellegent comment yet.
Go home and stay home, defund Israel, stop importing oil, build a green economy, become a nation of laws and morals instead of consumption and hate. That's what we do. Let those goat herders kill each other, when they get tired they will quit.
I don't always agree with you, but I do on this. We may argue about whether OBL was involved in 9/11, but there is no reason whatsoever for us to remain in Afghanistan now. The point is moot.
Bring 'em home NOW!
is NOT going to fix anything there either.
Afghanistan was a gateway war that enabled bush to invade Iraq. With all the fear and shock still in this country after 9-11 it was easy for him to sell the country that there was another threat lingering in Iraq.
Excellent, like pot is a gateway drug to coke and horse. Well said.
Thank you. I truly believe he used it that way. While everyone was living in fear, he used that fear to start a second war. By the time the thoughts of bombing Iran came around the country had pretty much cleaned up its act. Simple fear no longer worked on them.
parasitic dependency on the rest of the world, and the dilemma that faces politicians is how to keep the domestic natives from becoming too restless (preserving their imperially-derived comforts) without exacerbating the restlessness of the rest of the world.
What Obama inherited is a nation whose power rested on the twin pillars of dollar hegemony and military capacity… and the former is in very deep trouble.
It's Obama's turn to kill more innocent people. Hell why not. Bush got to do it for 8 years, why not Obama? It's all bullshit. Taliban this, taliban that. Ya right. Oh lookie, we killed brown people, they must have been evil Taliban, or worse still, those Al Keeda Terrists, that have never been proven to be responsible for anything, except for the odd admitted videotapes. If you are going to keep using these lame excuses, at least kill them all Obomba, so the world can be safe for US corporate interests once and for all.
general attempt to re-establish stable US footprints in the world upon which to attempt another upwave of accumulation.
And people are swallowing this bullshit hook line and sinker.
We detained those A-Rabs and tortured them until they said they attacked us.
That means everything is legit
Afghanistan, where U.S. politics began.
The Obama stimulus package appears light or even nonexistent on raising wages while placing emphasis on keeping asset prices from falling. Until the Obama team takes measures to address the wage/price imbalance, the financial crisis and wars will continue.
We will not rest until Osama... er... Osama Bon-Jovi is brought to justice!
No wait, what was that guy's name again? Osama ...something? Osama Ben-Hur? Osama ... Bo-Peep...
Well you know what I mean! We will not rest until we have meted out just retribution to our sworn enemy, Osama *harumph-cough*!
Hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis, thousands of dead Afghans, and thousands (though much smaller) US troops. How many were killed on 911? Less than 3000? So the US government has and continues to, kill more of it's own troops than the supposedly the day that "changed everything". Oh, there's that change word again.
When will there be enough death that we can consider the score settled. Unless that's not the real reason we are int these wars, which brings me back to my earlier post.
3-4 million Iraqi refugees in Iraq
2-3 million Pakistani refugees in Pakistan
millions of refugees in Afghanistan
Yep we sure do know how to help people out alright
And if the government forces me to buy health insurance from ineffecient and corrupt insurance companies I'll be forced out and in refugee status too.
You people are unbelievable. Do you think that every terrorist attack carried out by Al Qaeda was some kind of false flag? If the whole war in Afghanistan now is over corporate interests, where is Obama's connection? Where is his Halliburton stock or Unocal connections?
The fact is that any time you try to perpetuate a big lie, you need at least some people in on it. The more people in on it, the more likely you'll get a leak. A lie as big as some people here are proposing would be leaked in a millisecond.
I'm all in favor of a skeptical mind, but Occam's razor comes into play at some point. The most likely facts are that the one-time CIA boywonder, Osama bin Laden leads (or at least led) a somewhat effective group of people who engage in blowing up civilians and others - shorthand: terrorists. That group was in Afghanistan, and whether further negotiations with the Taliban would have worked or not (I think not), Bush sent in the Army and Marines after him. Iraq distracted resources from this fight so it has lingered.
Fast forward to this year, Pakistan, fresh off its own experimentation with negotiation with the Taliban, has redoubled it's efforts in exerting governmental control over its country (are they in on the plot too?) Obama can A) engage in some combination of use of the military (in concert with NATO), training Afghan forces, and working with the Pakistanis to subdue the Taliban and Al Qaeda forces; or B) pull everyone the fuck out and see what happens. There are plenty of reasons to believe that the latter strategy would end in a worse situation (see: last 30 years of civil war in Afghanistan).
Some of you people sound like you'd be right at home with the stooges over at Red State talking about who murdered Vincent Foster.
Go ahead, tell me how naive I am.
I agree.
Have assholes like OBL and the like been attacking us and other countries? 40 years? 50 years?
Since 1947?
Like you, I believe OBL was behind 9/11, not some group of US politicians and CEOs. But since Bush did not capture OBL, and who knows where he is now (OBL, not Bush), it makes no sense to stay there.
I'm in favor of B) pull everyone the fuck out now and see what happens.
Certainly nothing worse than when the Taliban ran things pre-9/11.
With all the torture and Gitmo and Abu Graib.
It's too late for that now.
We will never see the end of this. No matter what Obama does.
He can pull out, or he can put more forces in there. We will never see the end of this in our life times.
The only up side to this, is that if Nato and the US make a big enough dent in these fuckers. We might see some peace for awhile.
But it will never be over. Not as long as the US's CIA, GB's MI6-7. and all the other countries that delve into other countries biz, keep interfering with how they operate. These countries should be able to police their own countries and put a stop to these kinds of radical elements.
But even then, someone will act out against someone. It's an ugly side of human nature.
Accept Israel, and police their radical elements, there will always be trouble. simple as that.
I'd be inclined to agree with you, Matt; but with events in Pakistan this year, I don't know.
Pakistan is, for the first time, committed to limiting the power of militant tribes in their territory. We might have the best chance in a long, long time to allow for the development of stable, peaceful states in central Asia. You could say, "isn't that central Asia's business?" Well, there is precedent for central Asia's business affecting us, and let's not forget that Pakistan is a nation with nuclear arms. Not only do we have a direct interest in ensuring those arms are secure, we have an interest in keeping Pakistan happy, stable, and cooperating with international organizations.
I'm not saying I want the US to stay there indefinitely, but I think we are moving in the right direction now.
This war doesn't directly parallel Vietnam - in which we had policies of forced depopulation of rural areas and we indescriminately bombed and poisoned huge regions of the country to prop up a clearly illegitimate and corrupt South Vietnamese government. Nor does it now even resemble the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan given Pakistan's assistance and the absence of any power proxy-fighting us (like we were versus the Soviets).
Maybe I'm naive, but I think that peace-keeping troops are sometimes effective, and if the UN can do it, the US can.
I suppose we could let the radical elements take over Pakistan.
Then they could nuke India over Kashmir. Then India would nuke the fuck out of Pakistan. Then we wouldn't have anything to worry about. right?
Problem solved.
Not Likely.
Don't misinterpret what I'm saying Billy.
I agree with you.
This is a huge issue. None of us like it. None of us want it.
But it's here.
...it will make all the GOPers STFU.
Biggus. A very Big IF. But it would be sweet.
Please read this:
http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_feat...
and this:
http://www.slate.com/?id=2059487
Now step back and take a deep breath. Seriously, folks, promoting conspiracies is for the weak minded. Leave that shit for Glenn Beck and Michelle Bachmann.
Why were plans made to invade Afghanistan on Sept.10/01 when it seemed no one in the Bush administration gave a crap about bin Laden and Al Queda up to that point?
You name any country in the world, and someone in our military has put together at least the rough outline of an invasion plan. The plans for invading Afghanistan, hot spot that it is for a number of different reasons, would be much more detailed than those for, say, Equatorial Guinea.
I'm hoping this is a short-term operation. Government forces, as well as citizens, in Pakistan have the Taliban on the run and where are they most likely to run? By entering Afghanistan where Obama has American forces at the ready.
And only by being physically present in the territory can they confirm whether Osama is alive or not. And if he is alive, and we capture him, he can put up a defense that he did not commit what he's accused of. Some of the evidence will likely be classified. But whether he's convicted or not it will either prevent his doing any other crimes, and if he claims he had nothing to do with attacking the US, that might lower his "heroic" status to much of the region.
A little help would be nice.
They're doing a pincer movement.:) don't do it. just get it out of your mind.:)
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