U.S. Soldier Given Conscientious Objector Status For Religious Beliefs
By Logan Murphy Thursday Oct 18, 2007 6:01pm
Reuters Via Yahoo:
A U.S. soldier who said his Christian beliefs compelled him to love his enemies, not kill them, has been granted conscientious objector status and honorably discharged, a civil liberties group said on Tuesday.
Capt. Peter Brown -- who served in Iraq for more than a year and was a graduate of the elite U.S. Military academy West Point -- said in a statement issued by the New York Civil Liberties Union that he was relieved the Army had recognized his beliefs made it impossible for him to serve.
"In following Jesus' example, I could not have fired my weapon at another human being, even if he were shooting at me," said Brown, who plans to continue seminary classes he began by correspondence while in Iraq. Read more...
This story hasn't gotten a lot of attention, but I believe it will pave the way for many other soldiers who object to the tragedy in Iraq to get out. This sets an interesting precedent. If other soldiers choose to follow suit in big numbers, it could mean serious trouble for President Bush and an Army already failing to meet recruiting goals.
Login or Register to post comments.
I have a feeling that, were he a Quaker, he'd be in the brig.
When the Fundies start turning toward actual Christianity from wherever the hell they've been for the last few years, this administration is on the ropes.
Oh.yeah.
Yes, John West.
My god, imagine if the Christians actually started turning to Christianity, the republican party/military industrial complex
would be in deep shit.
There have been plenty of people:
IVAW supports war resisters and conscientious objectors. Learn more about service men and women who are presently refusing to participate in the occupation of Iraq.
Here's some info:
Conscientious Objector Information
Not a problem. They still have Blackwater and they can empty out the prisons by offering a deal for them to serve in Iraq for a length of time commensurate with their prison sentencing. They probably already have the plans drawn up.
John West @ 2:
Exactly. This soldiers identifies himself as a Christian, but the significant issue is that he actually practices his beliefs. If someone were to identify them self as a Christian, and is governor to a state that lead the nation in executions, and then this person violates national and international laws (including, but not limited to, starting and perpetuating an illegal war), then tortures and kills people, this person would be a complete hypocrite. It is a good thing we don't have a leader like that...oh, wait....
Who places more value on human life? The person who believes there is life after death or the person who doesn't believe in life after death?
The stumbling block would be proving that they are, in fact, COs and not just using it as a dodge to avoid serving. The military usually only allows this if the individual in question is a priest/rabbi/imam or other faith-based occupation. But it certainly would be an interesting fight to watch, if masses of soldiers and sailors decided they couldn't morally continue to serve in the occupation.
So what are the wingnuts going to call this guy when they attack him? Will they label him a phony soldier or a phony Christian?
Well thats good news! All soldiers can go home if they choose now. Unless the US government is going to be judging if other peoples religious beliefs are good enough of course. Which they just did with this case. oops. Hypocrisy alert....
The religious right will disown him. Modern day Christians aren't interested in peace, love, etc. The only people interested in that are those traitorous liberals.
Zenrage @ 8:
Well said. I've always thought that the best steward for the nation would be a non-believer, because they know how preciously short their time on earth is. The wacko end-timers don't give a shit about this world - they can always have do-overs in the next life. Maybe they'll all be reincarnated as polar bears searching for an iceberg to float on.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=R7ztWtO2SCA
Bush Justice Department Vote Chief John Tanner Argues That Voter ID Laws Discriminate against Whites. Tanner explained that "primarily elderly persons" are the ones affected by such laws, but "minorities don't become elderly the way white people do: They die first." So anything that "disproportionately impacts the elderly, has the opposite impact on minorities," he added. "Just the math is such as that." (more)
Also, someone should offer a prize for the first atheist to be rejected because of the same appeal to get listed as a conscientious objector and get a honourable discharge.
So why the f%#* did he go to the Academy? I'm glad that conscientious objectors can get out, but for the love of Jesus... HE JOINED THE ARMY! He wasn't drafted.
Believe me, my first act as President will be to get everyone out as quickly and safely as possible, but seriously, he joined the Army, jumped through amazing hoops to get into, and through West Point knowing full well that the Academy would extend his commitment and now his beliefs won't let him complete that commitment.
If his claim was based around findings that the war is illegal and immoral (which it clearly is) then I would be far more impressed/interested.
ok I get it......if you've found geebuss,you can get out.....What about if you simply think killing is immoral.....oh yeah......your a phoney soldier.....
Onward, Christian soldiers, marching back to home
Let Bush fight his own war
The dirty little gnome
I must be naive. I thought that this happened all of the time. My college roommate was a devout Christian and a CO in Viet Nam days. Even with the skepticism rampant then, it was fairly straightforward for him to get CO status. It surprises me that it's news.
Happenstance @ 18:
I love this.
Dilapidus @ 16:
In all fairness, the actualityof war probably brings someone in much more stark juxtoposition to his conscience than a military academy. I daresay anyone who has not been in a position where the norm is raining actual physical death has no idea what his response would be.
Why can't we simply choose not to kill people because WE DO NOT WANT TO KILL PEOPLE? Why does one have to invoke a supernatural god, or however Jesus is classified today, in order to justify our respect for another human life?
"The religious factions . . . are trying to force government leaders into following their position "The religious factions...are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent...Just who do they think they are? I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism."
-Five term Republican U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater, 1981 and author of "The Conscience of a Conservative,"
"I think the number one issue people should make [in the] selection of the President of the United States is, 'Will this person carry on in the Judeo Christian principled tradition . . .'"
-John McCain, Barry Goldwater's successor, interview with BeliefNet
"(I) believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute."..."Whatever issue may come before me as President...I will make my decision in accordance with what my conscience tells me to be the national interest and without regard to outside religious pressures or dictates."
- John F. Kennedy 1960 presidential campaign in a speech to the Greater Houston Ministerial Alliance
I'm surprised his reservations were given any credence at all. Repigs simply don't understand the teachings of Jesus. But it only takes one. The right person in the right place at the right time.
This is heartening.
But you'd better believe they're going to put a cork in this ASAP.
*
"...pray that I can be an instrument of God"
- Barack Obama, October 6, before 12,000 congregants of the Redemption World Outreach Center
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it."
-John Adams "Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
-Thomas Jefferson "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
-James Madison
They were probably so relieved he showed the credulity to call Iraqis "enemies" that they let him right out.
Zenrage @ 8:
Depends on what you think is likely to be waiting for you after the jump. ;) 72 virgins or a lake of fire. Of course, nihilists haven't been known to be the most compassionate people. I refer to the passage Lebowski, 4:24: "Nihilist: Ve don't care. Ve still vant ze money, Lebowski, or ve fuck you up!"
The soldier's right about the true teachings that other Dude, of course.
But, if you'll indulge me, there is a problem here. West Point isn't cheap. It is one of the finest academies on earth. So, if the agreement was "OK, Uncle Sam will give you a fine education with credentials that will make you wealthy when you leave the service. But you do have to sign up with us for at least 4 years active service and 2 reserve to pay for it." So, the kid goes to school on Uncle Sam's dime, then immediately gets an honorable discharge (so that he can safely put West Point on his 'resume'). That doesn't seem right. Isn't he just skipping out on his end of the bargain, costing us tens of thousands of dollars?
Nor does denying a contentious objector I admit, but to me that makes more sense in a draft. I don't really have any objection or answers here (just devil's advocate) -- hopefully these things are investigated a little on a case by case basis. All of our troops using this as a means of protest would be wrong in my opinion though.
Forgive me another pop culture reference:
Let me post this again error free:
“The religious factions…are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent…Just who do they think they are? I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism.”
-Five term Republican U.S. Senator Barry Goldwater, 1981 and author of “The Conscience of a Conservative”
This story will only bring out the hannitys, rushs and becks of the right wing smogosphere to thump their chests, lecturing about patriotism, the rule of law or blind obedience to authority.
Peace @ 25:
Read this statement as ~ "you evangelicals can take your sanctimonious posturing; hike on back to your intolerant, bigoted, hypocritical congregations and elders - and you can ALL suck eggs".
Those were the days - when we had REAL leaders.
*
Posted again, this time hopefully readable:
“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it.”
-John Adams
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.”
-Thomas Jefferson
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
-James Madison
Trittydi @ 26:
Yep and yep.
The only reason this guy got CI status is that he was a major. No way in hell will they ever allow us enlisted to do it. Doesn't matter if we convert to a different religion, have a serious injury, or developed Post Traumatic Stress, no one really gives a shit about us or this war. I love how people say "hey your a volunteer, your getting what you signed up for." Well first off, FUCK YOU. Second, I'm supposed to be the same person I was when I signed up at 18 as I am as a 26 year old and being in a war zone? Jesus, if you can looks at injured people and bodies not be affected, wow...stronger person than me. I tell you one think, at least I understand people from the middle east better than the US. Seriously how is brittney spears still popular?
I wonder if he voted for Bush? Y'know, the "values" issues and all.
Do you think they'd grant an Atheist conscientious objector status or can it only be Christians?
He was graduated form West Point and it never occured to him that the military kills people? I'm glad he isn't going to fight but come on, this stinks to hell and back. Why did he go to West point to begin with? Where was his moral compass while he was in school. It sure looks like he found god when the shooting AT HIM started.
The rules must have changed. When I joined the Navy in 1963, I signed up as a conscientious objector. That was the year before The Gulf of Tonkin non-event. I just remember filling up a little section of the enlistment form. I think the question was, "Are you a conscientious objector? It may have said something about religion, but I don't remember that. I did what most COs did, I became a medic.
I remember some kind of issue at the rifle range in boot camp because they weren't going to give me my turn at the range, but I wanted to shoot. I'm an excellent marksman, but not as good as my wife. I've always been a target shooter, I just don't believe in killing either people or animals. Being a conscientious objector doesn't keep you out of combat, you just aren't required to shoot at anyone. A FMS Corpsman (Navy Medic Serving with the Marines) would go into battle with nothing but a medical bag in hand.
A lot of people who wanted to avoid the Vietnam draft claimed to be conscientious objectors, I don't know if they won that argument. I've never heard of being a conscientious objector as a valid reason for a discharge though. Usually it just resulted in a reassignment.
There's a part of me that says I don't care why or how he got out. AFAIC, that's one less dead soldier in the future, one less potential killing machine sent from America to Iraq.
I've heard "Christians" say that Jesus is coming back as a warrior, so it's just fine and dandy with them if they kill in the name of the Lord. It's amazing how they rationalize and justify everything they do.
Trittydi @ 33:
I'm too young, but I always thought that read: "No, I am NOT puppet of the pope -- quit asking. I can be the president AND Catholic without being a traitor, thank-you-very-much!"
But like I said, I have a hard time imagining the "pope paranoia" of those days.
If every "Christian" started to follow in Jesus' footsteps and every Muslim followed the footsteps of Muhammad they would all lay down their weapons and we would have no more war no matter what this administration and those getting rich off the blood that is flowing in Iraq and Afghanistan. Perhaps he will serve as an inspiration to others who claim they too are Christians.
If you'd like to read a piece from Mother Jones about Hillary Clinton's involvement in a strange religious group called The Fellowship I highly recommend it. It may shock you to discover that Hillary appears to be a religious nutcase too! Why isn't anyone discussing this?
Some shocking highlights:
...When Clinton first came to Washington in 1993, one of her first steps was to join a Bible study group. For the next eight years, she regularly met with a Christian "cell".
...The Fellowship believes that the elite win power by the will of God, who uses them for his purposes. Its mission is to help the powerful understand their role in God's plan.
...the faith is always evangelical, and the politics always move rightward.
...According to the Fellowship's archives, the spirit has in the past led its members in Congress to increase U.S. support for the Duvalier regime in Haiti. The Fellowship's God-led men have also included General Suharto of Indonesia; Honduran general and death squad organizer Gustavo Alvarez Martinez; a Deutsche Bank official disgraced by financial ties to Hitler; and dictator Siad Barre of Somalia.
...These days, Clinton has graduated to the weekly Senate Prayer Breakfast. She prays with men such as Sam Brownback, James Inhofe (global warming denier), former Senator George "macaca" Allen, Senator Mark Pryor (who told us that the separation of church and state has gone too far) and holy Joe Lieberman (blood thirsty neo-con warmonger).
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2007/09/hillarys-prayer-2.html
Peace @ 43:
But what has Hilary done or said that leads you to believe that her religious believes would interfere with her ability to govern fairly? It seems like there's a lot of guilt by association here.
ckerst @ 38:
Yup, I agree. As a West Point cadet, our conscientious, 10 Commandment-observing Christian received 4 years of training in subjects such as hand to hand combat, marksmanship (probably using human-profile targets at some point), field combat training, battlefield tactics and probably some first aid for the treatment of gunshot wounds. According to the West Point website, he would have served on active duty for part of his last 2 years before graduation, taken advanced courses in combat warfare, or trained other cadets to drill, shoot and kill.
No way this guy didn't know from day one he was going to be asked to aim and fire his weapon at real human beings. Question is, should he be asked to repay the cost of the education provided to him courtesy of US taxpayers?
Carmikl @ 46:
Ever hear the phrase "birds of a feather stick together?" There are a few more as well but all mean the same thing.
[...] Check it out! While looking through the blogosphere we stumbled on an interesting post today.Here’s a quick excerptJohn Amato’s virtual online magazineOK, It’s a blog! By: Logan Murphy on Friday, October 19th, 2007 at 4:01 PM - PDT Reuters Via Yahoo : A U.S. soldier who said his Christian beliefs compelled him to love his … [...]
ckerst @ 38:
I don't see why he wasn't just reassigned. There are a lot of non-combat assignments he could have taken. Every facility needs a supply officer. There are a lot of staff positions.
EJG @ 48:
But in the end they all mean, "Guilt by Association."
Carmikl @ 46:
Lets see, she belongs to a religious group that operates in almost total secrecy and believes that elites such as herself were brought to positions of power by God. Oh yeah, she's running as a Democrat yet her religious beliefs compel her to move rightward. And I've never heard her publicly acknowledge any of this!
Dilapidus @ 16:
Excellent point. Why would you, as a Christian, join the army in the first place knowing it's eventual endgame; unless he had some kind of epiphany after seeing the results of war. It's possible.
Peace @ 52:
so the corporate whores a jesus freak too, kucinich 08
EJG @ 42:
EJG, Mohammed was a military as well as a religious leader. So if every Muslim followed his footsteps we would really have a lot of problems with the Muslim world.
http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=22730
Paul In SF @ 10:
Both....and they will throw in an appeaser of Islamofascists.
He's probably just looking to get a higher paying job at Blackwater. I hear they're run by a devout, God fearing Christian.
Surge update
http://www.gulfnews.com/region/Iraq/10161475.html
Peace @ 52:
Have you ever heard anyone ask her about this? Maybe if she knew it was an issue she'd offer a clarification. Just belonging to a religious group doesn't mean the accept everything that group believes in. There are a lot of Catholics out there using birth control and getting abortions.
evangelicos aint catholics!
Jimmie @ 45:
Huh???? Thou shalt not kill.
If this officer made C/O status, my question then is why he could not finish his service in the medical field or as a chaplain assistant???
This was a common road for C/Os during WW2 and many served with honor and distinction, a reminder to all that one doesn't always have to stab folks in the eye with a bayonet to make a difference.
I feel that this officer was able to obtain a seperate type of justice to resolve the circumstance in how he approached his dillema. Lt Watanabe out there in Ft Lewis is getting double jeapordy thrown at him , while other enlisted folks attempting th same thing recieved significantpenalties.
Peace @ 43:
What's wrong with praying once a week. I suppose it depends on what you pray for. It also seems like joining a weekly prayer group with a bunch of Republicans is one way to avoid the anti-religious allegation that are likely to come from the right in the general election.
Shared Humanity @ 62:
What the hell kind of bible do you have there?
Carmikl @ 64:
thats a general erection!!!!
Diablo @ 36:
Resources for Active Duty Soldiers, National Guard, and Reserves
Conscientious Objector information
This is progress for the military, but historically they've always been more forgiving of people who object on religious grounds. They've never been fond of people who say they don't believe in god, but it's against their conscience. Belief in an authority, even if it's not them, is more acceptable to them.
Diablo @ 36:
Also, keep your head up. Go somewhere like IVAW and talk to people. Here is a link to GI Rights Hotline. Call someone there and talk to them. Don't let the people on this thread or anyone else discourage you from following your conscience. If you want, you can go to my site and I will talk to you. You are not alone.
Members of the military who develop a “firm, fixed, and sincere objection to
participation in war in any form or the bearing of arms,” based on moral, ethical, or
religious beliefs, are entitled to discharge from the military or transfer to non-combatant
status. An applicant for conscientious objector (CO) status must submit a written
application and be interviewed by a chaplain, military psychiatrist, and investigating
officer.
Batocchio @ 68:
Actually they like people to believe in an afterlife. People who believe in an afterlife give up this life more easily than those who don't.
Carmikl @ 50:
Because that is still contributing to the war machine. Why are you judging this person for following their conscience?
I'm sorry, but fuck him! I enlisted and went to Officer Candidate School and served 22 years. I don't agree with what's going on and I elected to not get promoted and just retire. I didn't get a $350,000 tax paid education - and I've seen far too many West Point idiots serve their bullshit six years and take their free high-dollar degree to the private sector. He should have thought about the objector concept PRIOR TO getting his big fat degree. Or how about this --- make him pay it all back just like the rest of us with our student loans!!!!
I guess military folks should not come here looking for any kind of support.
Go here instead if you need support:
Resources for Active Duty Soldiers, National Guard, and Reserves
IF HE TRULLY BELIEVED, WHY DID HE GO TO WEST POINT? Is the goverment going to make him pay back the money we paid for his FREEeducation?
navyswan @ 70:
blockquote>
How was I judging him for following his conscience? Since I was a CO, I completely support his decision. I think everyone should be a conscientious objector. I was just wondering why they didn't just reassign him away from combat. That was the common solution during the Vietnam war. No one was discharged then for being a CO. I was a CO, so I became a medic (Corpsman) and spent my enlistment trying to heal people. There are a lot of options.
Courage to Resist
I somehow doubt many military folks looking for support come to a blog called "Crooks & Liars" as their first (or even 70th) choice but thanks for your concern.
Carmikl @ 74:
That is still an option. However, a CO also has the right to refuse to participate at all and request a full discharge. I put up a link earlier. Here it is again: CO Info
aL @ 73:
It's easier to convince people that you've just found God than it is to convince someone that your conscience just took over. Which ever it was, it was a good decision.
In my opinion anybody who can stop participating in actions that end the lives of others has my full support. I don't care of you are a Christian and Athiest or worship Krispy Kreme Donuts. If somebody got an education in the process that is one less person we will have to house in a prison at $100,000 a year. (Hmm, universal education through college would be cost effective!)
xoites defends Constitution @ 79:
Thank you.
You, my friend, are always welcome. :)
I wonder if they will let any atheists out because they don't want to kill anyone? I bet that wouldn't count. Separation of church and state would'nt apply when it should most.
[deleted - way over the top]
Kudos to Capt. Peter Brown for taking a stand
"Isn't it interesting that those who pray are the ones who want to go to war?" - Mike Gravel.
Except this one.
That's what you think.
That would be irony, huh?
Bible Boy's war goes to shit because the troops got religion.
steve @ 82:
"There are no atheists in fox holes."
And, apparently, there will be no believers there either.
LOL.
Anybody who claims to follow Jesus had better be a peace activist too, or else they're just another fake christian.
[deleted - consult the commenting policy]
I think that a person who goes into the army and then refuses to fight a war is kind of like someone who gets a job as a pharmacist and then refuses to administer birth control prescriptions. I don't agree with this war but come on. Why the hell would you join the army if you can't defend yourself - let alone your country - from someone who is shooting at you?
@ Hype-Jersey,
Guess you'd have to suddenly develop a conscience to realize the answer to the question your asking.
Hey atheists with a conscience don't count. It only counts if sky-pixies tell you what to do. It means you're mentally unstable. Good riddance to that jackass. I really do hope he has to pay back his taxpayer funded education. If he really had a conscience then he would honor his commitments and take responsibility for them. What he really has is a personality disorder.
Hype-Jersey @ 91:
There a lot of Chaplains, Doctors, nurses and medics who join the service with no intention of shooting anyone. In fact, they are forbidden from doing so.
To me this guy is a coward and a opportunist. What his purpose in attending West Point? Did he think he will receive a baguette instead of a rifle upon graduation? He enjoyed the ride. Suddenly he is a Christian! West Pointers are hired any place any where and any time thanks to West Point. He is just a coward! A survivor! He should reimburse the Academy. The Government.
Diablo @ 36:
I understand the frustration, but it's important to realize that it's already happened for enlisted soldiers to get CO status. Look up Aidan Delgado--he was a specialist stationed at Abu Ghraib who converted to Buddhism and received a CO discharge.
They don't want you to know it happens, and not that rarely. But it happens, and they don't want to risk it becoming a major story. If you or someone you know wants to receive CO classification, it can be done. Don't let them tell you otherwise, and don't think it's impossible. It's not easy, but it can be done.
re: posts @9, 19 & 95
I was granted a CO deferment at the height of the Viet Nam war from a draft board in the Bible belt. I can tell you it isn't exactly easy, but not impossible by any means.
You must be sincere in your beliefs and KNOW HOW TO ARTICULATE THEM. You above all need to be secure in those beliefs, secure enough to go against and perhaps lose both friends and family. if they don't share your philosophy.
Having counseled others back then I would encourage any one who SINCERELY believes that killing is wrong (please no scenarios about someone about to murder my grandmother-I've heard all that tripe) to at least look into the possibility of CO status.
Since my situation had to do with the draft, I can't speak for anyone who is already in the armed forces, but I can tell you that applying for CO status was one of the smartest things I've ever done and I've never regretted it for a minute.
How could a Christian join the military in the first place?
If he was drafted I could understand what is going on but to volunteer?
Zenrage @ 8:
The soldiers that really ARE Christians, or the soldiers that believe there are 21 virgins waiting for him in seventh heaven place the same value on a human life.
A non-religious soldier knows he only has ONE chance at life. Therefore he places more value on a human life than the two above. What do they care? They'll get rewarded as soon as they die anyway, Zenrage.
Alessandra @ 98:
Remember: Post 9/11 this war was brought to market by Dubya as a crusade.
The Bible thumpers swallowed it, hook line and sinker.
JR @ 96:
It's better to grant the few that ask for it, and possibly avoid blowing the lid off, than to run the risk of having a court decision and definately blowing the lid off, yes.
You have to wonder, though, why on earth he chose a profession that is all about killing people, if he felt so strongly against it. Of course if it was his experiences in Iraq that affected his beliefs, then it's understandable--killing in theory and killing in fact being two entirely different things.
This is such bullshit. The idea that this is the Christian thing to do makes me puke. I was an atheist in the Marines and served in Iraq willingly, despite having to take so much shit from Christians the whole way through boot camp to the battlefield. If there was 1 reason, just 1 reason why I would ever seek conscientious objector status was because this is a Christian war perverted by religious belief on every level, from the public to the government to the troops fighting it. The hypocrisy of this asshole is so flagrant, so wrong. If he had a conscience he would become atheist himself. But now he's just another worthless jackass using a professed faith as his spiritual crutch to get out of anything that's slightly difficult in life.
This is one of the most disgusting thread I've seen in all my years of reading Crooks and Lairs. I hope everyone of you who criticizes this man remembers your callousness when your being shipped of to Iran under Presdent Clinton's draft.
Well, I support his decision. He is stronger than most people to follow his conscience. I am an atheist, but I would support anyone's moral decision to refuse this war, whether they be Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Hindu, Quaker, atheist, or whatever.
Frederick @ 104:
It is very depressing isn't it.
So I guess Secularists, Humanists, Agonists nor Antheists, are not included in having high enough morals or the "right" reason to be able to defend their belief that killing innocent people for a lie, or for any reason for that matter, is wrong.
Relgion and politics, when combined = evil.
Just ask the Founders of America and hey...how about those in the Middle east, those in England and any number of relgious motivated violence that has cluttered the history of the human race and has been the reason for so many deaths, tortures and attrocities...hey, how about the Holocost.....remember that one? Take a reads if "Theologians Under Hitler"...very eye-opening and scary.
Its like the whole thread has been taken over by right wingers. And some wonder why the peace movement hasn't got any traction. Between it's active suppression by the Democratic part and the lack of support for soldiers hoping to end the war, it looks like we'll get to ten years over there just as Petraeus suggested. I hope all the armchair critics here take the time to sit down and watch Sir! No Sir! and realize how the Vietnam war really ended.
Frederick @ 108:
Unfortunately, this is not an isolated event. There was a similar reaction to Watada when his story first broke. I second the suggestion of Sir! No Sir!
Corey @ 107:
This will be the third time I have posted this on this thread. Anyone with a moral objection to war has a right to CO status regardless of religious belief or lack thereof.
CO info:
Members of the military who develop a “firm, fixed, and sincere objection to
participation in war in any form or the bearing of arms,” based on moral, ethical, or
religious beliefs, are entitled to discharge from the military or transfer to non-combatant
status.
Thank you Logan! I really hope this story gets traction in the blogosphere. What is a war mongering Christian Right zealot to do here? Condemn him for following Jesus? Or praise him for leaving the war on ethical reasons?
Its a bullseye on madness of so called moralists and their absolute bloodlust.
Hallelu-YAH! This story has lessened my overwhelming sense of dread, so THANKS. If every "Christian" began practicing the actions of Jesus, would the result be a de facto return of the Messiah and a flowering of peace?
One wonders why this man would choose to attend West Point if he had such deeply held religious convictions. Did he not know that West Point is the nation's military academy at which we prepare young people to kill and die for their country??!!
Snowball @ 37:
Do you really have to ask that question? I have a feeling that you already know the answer.
;)
If I may:
I claimed Conscientious Objector status in the Viet Nam War era, and after a long battle, I was granted a C.O. discharge in late 1970. I can tell all of you that Captain Peter Brown has had to make a tough decision, a very risky decision. Had the military not granted him his discharge, he would have been put in a position of refusing orders or violating his principles. And had he refused orders, he would have likely spent time in a Federal prison.
This type of discharge has not always been available to men who joined up and then realizing that being in the military was counter to their principles. Captain Brown and myself owe a large debt of gratitude to those in earlier conflicts who were, in fact, incarcerated or abused for their beliefs. I honor those who fought in their own way for the world that they believed in, one in which the insanity and immorality of war are lessened, even if it is only by one person at a time. The world can use a lot more Peter Browns.
I have faith that at some time in the distant future the world will have real peace. The people of the planet living then will be a fortunate lot.
In response to snowball and bill w,
Actually, the military regulation governing C.O. discharges requires a belief in "a supreme being," and that phrase is interpreted fairly broadly.
In my own C.O. case, which was in 1969 to 1970, although not an atheist, I was also not connected with any church or established religion at all, but that only made it a little more difficult for me. All the people, save one, I dealt with treated me pretty much the same as if I were a church goer. My beliefs were based on a reincarnationist point of view, and that only myself or my supreme being (which I did refer to as "God") could make a decision to put me in a "shoot them before they shoot you" situation.
I myself do not think that atheism is incompatible with being a conscientious objector. Those who evaluated me at that time asked questions that pertained to the degree of my beliefs, and they seemed to not be concerned with what supreme principle I believed in as much as they were with my devotion to those principles. They treated me with dignity during the whole of the process. My application was actually denied twice, and I had to re-apply twice, based on the increased intensity of beliefs, and was successful on the third attempt. Obviously, they did not adequately accept my position until I impressed it upon them sufficiently - but they did, in fact, come to realize my sincerity. Even when they were rejecting my application, they continued to treat me and my application with dignity and respect.
That does not exactly refute your perceptions - since I was not an atheist per se, but only an out-of-the-box C.O. - but I hope it allows you to give the military a little more credit than your comments above suggest. They do seriously consider - and even grant - C.O. discharges for weirdos like me.
navyswan @ 106:
Well, it looks to me as though most people aren't criticizing his objecting at all. Good for him.
But they wonder if he didn't "work the system" by going to West Point first. That is a valid question. If he served no active duty, perhaps they can convert a reasonable portion of the cost to a normal, low-interest student loan. The costs for the education granted by the Academies are said to be quite high.
That way, he does the right thing, and no one can call him a thief of tax payer money. Works for everyone, and might even satisfy those enlisted that resent this as special treatment.
But then, I'm a smart-ass that thanks his lucky stars that his parents talked him out of going for Annapolis. Turns out I don't have the right attitude anyway:
Corey @ 107:
Corey, you and everyone here that thinks that are simply wrong.
In 1970, I myself got a C.O. discharge for essentially "secular, humanist, agonist" reasons. My reasons given were exactly what you spell out. The military regulations support the arguments of navyswan.
I am proof of that. And I even got help from those in the military to get that discharge. And, to boot, I was treated with respect while the application was pending. They weren't all happy about it, but they honored my beliefs. I NEVER got one bit of flack about it, not even from soldiers who had spent time fighting in Viet Nam.
swarmofkillermonkeys @ 117:
Yes, the costs are high for putting someone through West Point. But they put a lot of money into training ALL soldiers, sailors and marines. Back in 1967, in basic training, we were told it cost $240,000 to turn a civilian into a soldier. Ha ha! I can imagine what that is today, especially for turning a plebe into an officer. But it is only a matter of degree.
Should they take all soldiers who get C.O. discharges and charge them for their training costs?
See the notes above by me. I got a C.O. discharge. What I didn't mention in those comments above is that I had actually had a nomination to West Point, too, which failed to turn into an appointment because of my eyesight. I later enlisted, then later on started to wake up to the reality.
For those who question someone gaming the system, like Corey_@_107 does, I can tell you all that I simply did not realize how MUCH the military is focused on killing. Until I got into the military, I simply had no idea. From their ads and their spin, you can get the impression that they do other things, too. But once you get inside, the whole atmosphere is an aura of "we are the guys who take out people". Non arms bearing soldiers are only adjuncts to the guys with the guns. It is ALL about killing. Period.
Their selling job masks that, and it takes a bit of time for someone of principle to realize all that - and to make that courageous decision to say, "No." You have to really take stock of yourself before committing to that course of action. Gaming the system is not part of it. Courage is. You are going up against one of the biggest, most powerful, institutions on earth, after all. It is not a decision made lightly.
Anyone who accuses C.O. applicants of anything but having cojones simply does not know. You need pretty big ones.
Carmikl @ 74:
Hey, Dude, I am living proof that they did discharge people as C.O.s during Viet Nam.
Oct 23, 1970. Not a date I can easily forget.
Army Regulation 260-something, if I recall.
I honor your actions, both in getting classified as a C.O. (not easy, is it?), and for your actions in helping people in your way. I couldn't do that myself, but that is just me.
Annoyed Canuck @ 45:
Wow. You really bring back old thought processes. Note above that I was discharged as a C.O. in 1970. I did not go to West Point, though I almost did. Those comments might be worth reading for you.
Several weeks into basic training (I ended up an Specialist 4th Class), I abruptly woke up to the fact that they were really brainwashing us. I remember the moment, on a staircase, but don't need to go into it here. Prior to that I was a squad leader and was really into a lot of the hand-to-hand combat stuff, especially. I was reday for the Audie Murphy role. From then on, I was pretty much worthless to them.
My C.O. feelings came quite a bit later.
A few years later I read about the Moonies and how they brainwashed people, and every aspect of it was exactly what I had experienced with the military, from controlling your contact with the outside world to sleep deprivation and more. For the entire duration of basic training, the Army followed the Moonies' 'bible', as I experienced it. The Army did let up during our advanced training (assuming that more was not necessary, I presume), and by the time I was permanently assigned somewhere (I was the rarity who didn't go directly to Viet Nam), there was no more brainwashing being applied at all.
I have a fairly informed opinion that at West Point the brainwashing is even more severe. I have certainly read about how strong it is on the plebes (freshmen), and we all know how strong their code is throughout a cadet's time there. I would suggest that their code is part of the brainwashing, and that it takes some time for it to wear off.
I would certainly submit that Peter Brown was not able to wake up from the brainwashing until weeks or months after they stopped applying it. It was a small miracle that I woke up during the middle of it, during my basic training. No one else around me did. Controlling one's environment is very important to getting people to do heinous things like killing other human beings. They are a very large and experienced institution, and they are probably very good at brainwashing people. That brainwashing extends out into the general public's world, too, so that some of us are suckers for their "Army of One" spiels. They have to fertilize the ground in order to get the types of crops they desire and need. The brainwashing for Capt. Brown didn't start at the gates of West Point.
Mark Twain's War Poem, which should be required reading for all young men, age 18 to 26 or so:
At least a few more would be Conscientious Objectors if they read this before enlisting.
Being an Air Force Academy graduate, I can assure you that the only reason he was approved was because he graduated from a service academy, West Point, and he had already served. The majority of those serving would never get this kind of accommodation. I'm glad he did it...
We can expect to see many other reasons for "not fighting" coming up in the future as our troops get over-used over there. The contractors are making their lives much more complicated in many instances. Perhaps it is only a matter of time for soldiers over there to have a complete change of heart seeing how much they and their families have been getting screwed.
Well of course the Academies condition to kill. Unfortunately, for the foreseeable future, we'll still need some men and women to pull the trigger. An inherently immoral act. Unless society goes to hell and we ALL become psychopaths, we'll have to continue to "dehumanize" normal sane people to enable effective killing.
That's just the way it is. Today it is an illegal war of aggression, but tomorrow may be defending the last shred of democracy. So it is a necessary evil in the real world.
I do love the “Army of One” line though. A machiavellian-esque pun. See, the kids read it as: *I* am an army -- of one! The Army reads it as *we* are one -- as an army. Deceptive and cruel, but someone has to serve. Everyone else needs to do their duty of holding politicians accountable for the use of these resources, however. It sure hasn't happened yet.
The alternative is to end the "volunteer" part of our forces. Perhaps as part of a mandatory 2 year civil service/citizen training (which you can shift to a 2 year military service instead if you want). You know, before or after college. Minimum wage (everyone should experience the minimum wage lifestyle for 2 years to enable informed voting decisions). Restoring National Forest campgrounds, or daycare for the poor... kind of like the peace corps only cleaning up our OWN dirty laundry as well. Adventure seekers could opt for Marine training instead, COs could opt for planting trees or whatever.
It'd work for me. I think it'd make the country a much healthier place as well.
Frederick @ 104:
Too late. Went to Iraq twice voluntarily. Have fun getting drafted, though.
Login or Register to post comments.