'Proud' of waterboarding?
By Steve Benen Sunday Nov 11, 2007 12:01pm
("Leaked Military" waterboarding instructions, may be inappropriate for work)
To highlight just how depraved some conservatives have become, consider the latest piece from Deroy Murdock, a contributing editor to the National Review. While some on the right have defended waterboarding as a necessary evil in a ticking-time-bomb scenario, Murdock went much further, arguing, “Waterboarding is something of which every American should be proud.”
Though clearly uncomfortable, waterboarding loosens lips without causing permanent physical injuries (and unlikely even temporary ones). If terrorists suffer long-term nightmares about waterboarding, better that than more Americans crying themselves to sleep after their loved ones have been shredded by bombs or baked in skyscrapers.
In short, there is nothing “repugnant” about waterboarding.
Remember, this isn’t some random crazy person ranting on a street corner; this is a published column in one of the nation’s biggest conservative political magazines.
For what it’s worth, Media Matters did some fact-checking, and found that Murdock — surprise, surprise — doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
But stepping back and considering the big picture, one question emerges: what is wrong with these people?
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"In short, there is nothing “repugnant” about waterboarding. It puts us alongside such greats as Tomas de Torquemada and the Khmer Rouge."
"what is wrong with these people?"
Simple - They think that they are right, and no one should question their motives or methods.
They're republicans.
We're traveling to my husband's hometown this week to visit relatives. He wonders why I'm nervous about the trip.
a fascist society always relies on its barbarity and supremacist sub humanity....
the very decay of society is what it relies on.
This is reich-wing pornography.
listen to these denials ... they are proud of torture - bullies whose overcompensation for weakness is on display for all to see at our Gulag.
The National Review has been a dishonest and immoral publication ever since it was founded. Why is everyone so surprised?
I think every defender of this practice should submit to some waterboarding to show us their pride in America. To do anything less would be cowardly... cut and run... retreat and defeat... uhm... help me out here... insert your favorite Fox/GOP talking point!
What was that old Pogo quote? We have found the enemy and he is us?
Which side are the good guys again? If you haven't been a terrorist or sympathiser before the torture, you sure are after the torment is over.
Didn't we prosecute countries after WW II for waterboarding?
Deroy Murdock is something of which every american should be ashamed.
I think one must be waterboarded to become a republican.
Anyone who supports waterboarding, or any form of torture, should experience it themselves.
Ann@anncoulterisevil.com @ 13:
No way! I would not have become a Republican if I had to be waterboarded first. That shit looks scary!
These people are like this for many reasons.
I'd argue (and have argued, and will continue to argue) that part of what's wrong with these people is that they're sadistic f*cktards.
They'll hurt people just 'cuz. They'll also torture because they think TERRORISTS think we'll be soft on them. We've always (supposedly) honored the Geneva convention, we've always gone out of our way and not tortured suspected terrosits, and look what happened? 9/11! 9/11! 9/11! (There isn't any other cause-and-effect to the events of that day, are there? Anyone? Bueller?) By gum, if we're tough now, show 'em we mean business (whoever "'em" are), they'll think twice about attacking this country God loves best. Of course, that mentality is even more insulting to a martyr willing to die for his cause in the first place. Kinda like how, in high school, if a weaker student decided to go all Ghandhi on a bully, tell him "I will not fight you, grasshopper," the bully would still kick the crap out of the nerd, laughing about what a puss-hole he was the entire time. That's how the neocons see terrorists - as bullies who are only MORE emboldened to kick the crap out of us if we claim that, if we catch 'em, we won't hurt 'em. Further proof that most people can't get past the ghosts that haunted them in high school.
They also happen to be suffering from serious PTSD of their own since 9/11. As Americans, we lead a pretty charmed life compared to most other nations that have had to come to grips with being in the presence of terrorist acts for some time now. Our mantra may as well have been "it can't happen here." Now, people are arguing, in so many words, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out. If you are suspected of beng a terrorist, they want to break you as payment for what someone else did to us 6 years ago. You're all one big group of anti-American freedom-hating evildoers - this Administration sees you as such, and has made great efforts to paint you as such to a pathetically uneducated populace.
Finally, and sadly, the ideals of what being an American are, are not really instilled in us as a nation, unless by accident. Sure, we're taught that we're the best country (does ANY country NOT teach their kids some sort of national pride? Any nation happily shouting "We're number 37?"), we're taught we're the most free, we're the strongest and richest and all sorts of BS that's not necessarily true anymore. But are taught what any of that means? Are taught about the responsibilities that come with strength? Are we taught that the best way to convince people our way of life is the best is to NOT be assholish about it? Are we taught about the sacrifices others have made for our way of life, and that we might one day have to do the same in order to protect that way of life for the next generation? Not really. We're just the best, and anyone who doubts it is an enemy, and anyone who strikes at us can't possibly have justification in their own minds for it, and therefore, we can shock their nipples and waterboard them. Classy.
A bloodlust to rub our way of life in the faces of The Others, combined with a desire to make someone - anyone - pay for what happened to us, and an Administration more than happy to cloud the differences between those who wronged us and those who didn't if they have something we might want (like, oh I don't know, oil or something) has turned our national discourse into a powder keg ready to explode in the direction of anyone wearing anything on their head besides a baseball cap or pimp hat. They're all guilty of something, or else they'd be Americans or they'd be wanting to be Americans. We dehumanize them in our rhetoric, demonize them in our battles, so of course we don't mind making them feel pain.
Fear. It's the American political discourse of the 21st century.
Too bad there's no trading market in fear. Oh, wait...
Sooooo.... let me get this straight. Waterboarding would have been OTAY! in the following cases :
April 2001 China waterboards 24 crew members of the U.S. Spy plane in the interest of state security
Jessica Lynch is waterboarded by Iraqis in the interest of state security (along with all the soldiers that were captured at the beginning of the invasion)
???
This is a satire, is it not? Even the wing nuts take their torture very seriously, this just seems too flippant.
ciu @ 18:
It is shameful to consider that China and Iraqi citizens would have higher standards of humanity than US soldiers.
Am I in the United States of America?
I'm wondering whether posting a video instruction on the technique is the responsible thing to do? How many depraved individuals out there who stumble upon this site will feel inclined to ''try it out'' on someone someday?
Why would they be proud that you let the guy who could actually blow us up into the country, because you wasted time on someone who's not connected?
Set an egg timer for a Ron Paul comment from a Paultard.
How would he liked to be waterboarded by our enemies if he were ever captured?
Our enemies can't afford surfboards.
Wait...is this serious?
This can't be for real.
With that cheezy music in the back!? He can't be serious...
is he?
Sick, sick, sick psychopathic motherfuckers.
pissed off patricia @ 11:
Yup. Japan used waterboarding quite frequently.
Beating someone with a bag of oranges doesn't leave a mark!
angryspittle @ 26:
Wasn't that the name of an early 80's punk band?
Mayhaps they opened for these young ladies?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKR8NMGEt24
How about a neocon fund raiser for the pseudowar on terror? Instead of a dunk tank, people could line up to see their favorite warmonger get their lungs filled up with water.
Iraqi fighters 'grilled for evidence on Iran
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2209036,00.html
I can only imagine what these poor people must be going through. Another example why waterboarding and torture in general doesn't work.
When is the ignorant, bedwetting, Reslug going to volunteer to be waterboarded for the absolute fun of it??
and one of the excuses we used to justify going into Iraq was Saddam "tortured" his own people and this made it obvious he was a really bad man that needed to be caught and tried? Apparently when Bush greenlights torture this isn't the case...
Why do I get the feeling that's just some guy who went to the local costume shop and rented a costume to make it look like he is military? He's too sloppy in his grooming and the 'decorations' are all crooked. All the same, it's a very powerful. I am SO ashamed of my country.
s: what is wrong with these people?
They're a perfect example of the evil that lies in every Man's heart yet most people repress for the good of society. You know, like the sort of shit us godless liberal atheists get accused of all the time because we're all amoral without God as our center or something like that.
What is with the "happy" music in video? Is that guy trying to make waterboarding look like fun to the public? What ever the reason, this video would have been a big hit with Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein or some other dictator I'm sure. After all, each and every dictatorship has used similar methods of advertisement to sell their criminal acts and its always done under the guise of "national security".
jimmy @ 31:
Deja vu. Gotta find evidence implicating Iraq. They never learn. We tortured someone to find the link between al Qaeda and Saddam, which turned out to be wrong, and over a million people have died.
JerryO @ 34:
I don't think it's a real military video--the images of the actual waterboarding are, but I don't believe the guy in the uniform is.
I believe it's intended to be ironic.
#25 -
The film is "based on" actual water-boarding instructions from the military. It's being used to drive home the fact that it is NOT something for the American public to be "proud" of. They are making a mockery of those instructions by exhibiting them in public.
pissed off patricia @ 11:
We EXECUTED people for it.
It's open season on America....
Murdock's article is completely twisted. It's sickening. I can't believe rational conservatives - if there are any left - read and agree with this crap.
I really hope this is ironic.
IS THIS GUY FOR REAL? WATERBOARDING IS OK? SICK - SICK - SICK
what is wrong with these people?
If you look at torture as the ultimate demonstration of a state's power, rather than the red herring debate of whether it is effective as a means to extract information, it starts to make sense. If we get to you, the laws won't matter. It also explains why they welcome the public debate.
This video looks like bullshit to me. The cockiness of it, the drinking water while showing it and the last line make me think it has nothing to do with the military and is just a sick fu*king joke. When the subject dies and the other guy says, "maybe he didn't know anything" that's what gives it away.
I found this sentence from the Media Matters article of particular interest:
"Appropriately enough, waterboarding is not used on American citizens suspected of tax evasion, sexual harassment, or bank robbery."
All I have to say about that sentence is: Give it time. They will come around to using it on American citizens. This is what dictatorships do.
Didn't anyone watch the renowned expert on the use of torture last night?
He concluded with: "Is it really that bad? Keep in mind that it is almost never used, and besides, does anybody really think Khalid Sheik Muhammad didn't deserve worse"?
Sean Hannity - the new, self-anointed expert.
these bedwetters think Arabs are subhuman so it's okay to violate their human rights
jr @ 49:
Interestingly enough, that is exactly what the Nazis thought about the Jews. The ideology between the Nazis and the Republicans are the same. The only difference is the target.
Fear and Ignorance..Thats how the rethugs work..
Joe O. @ 50:
...the Nazis thought about the Jews, the Soviets thought about the Poles. They, however, have gone a small step farther. We're in the process of doing that step, after that, there's no coming back. After that, history hounts you forever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vgi1bd2zNv8
Perfect accompaniment to this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7lULaE6kv4
I don't believe the Bushies account of water-boarding's success. This is their MO, make up shit and find a shill to write it, cover their ass, and dupe the public. Murdock's piece smells of BS. In it he quotes two anonymous CIA sources (it would be treasonous to reveal their identities) who directly contradict themselves, one saying that after water-boarding was used KSM "cracked real quick," while the other one said KSM "lasted the longest under water-boarding." Also notice how shrub says over and over that "we don't torture." That may be true as pertains to water-boarding as the CIA says it doesn't do it any longer.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/09/cia-bans-water-.html
The real question to ask shrub is "have we ever water-boarded?" Which then makes me wonder, "if it was so effective, why did we stop?"
ronhohn @ 48:
I'm sure Hannity self-annoints himself alot.
And when people outside his bathroom calling out, "Oh God...Oh God...Oh Gooodd!!" they think he's praying.
Joe O. @ 50:
I was listening to NPR yesterday and they had an interview with the Chief of Police in Los Angeles about a proposed plan to identify and map out the Muslim population as a "security" measure. This entails identifying about a half million people in that area. When this fascist goon was asked if this was racial or ethnic profiling he said oh no, it was a preenptive act to make sure there were no acts of violence. Guess the concept of presumptive innocence is really inconvenient. These paranoid retards have a million and one excuses to trash our civil rights under the banner of "national security." Enough is enough!
And how coincidental was it that they aired this program on the day of the 70th anniversary of Krystallnacht in Germany. Achtung Muslim!
Film good! Waterboarding good! Islamofascists bad! Err...I reckon I'm singing to the choir...oh well, back to the High Priest of the Church of the Painful Truth. See you non-believers later.
Dan @ 57:
Ooh. A littlegreennoballer. Say hi to the lizards for us.
whoa, so this video is an authentic military training film. I find that to be suspect.
jimmy @ 52:
http://usera.imagecave.com/lizol/wtc-katyn-copcar.jpg
After all, a picture's worth a thousand words.
We need to carpet bomb the entire world except Canada.
What's wrong with these people, you ask?
They're sick, angry phucks, that's what's wrong. Devoid of empathy, compassion, flexibility and the ability to engage in thoughtful self-introspection. They're grievously damaged, and they're taking it out on everybody else, decency and civility be damned.
I don't even have to watch the video; the "Rule of Law" has been completetly broken and is now about to be incinerated with Diane Fine stain about to vote for immunity for the telecoms.
Where are the impeachment proceedings as called for in the US COnstitution... yes gw & co. It used to be more than "just a piece of paper" and I am no longer able to recognize my country...
I'm going back to the "ghost dance"!
I believe bush actually said "just a God damn piece of paper" ; am I right?
And the far right wing extremists go into a fainting spell when you call them a bunch of Nazis.
Also, what this right wing Nazi is basically saying is "torture without permanent damage is O.K."
"What is wrong with these people?"
FEAR!
Mr. Murdock was kind enough to include his own photo along with people he would love to waterboard. Looks like another closeted GOP operative sending code for a gay pick up.
I look forward to Mr. Murdock's next public symposium at Stanford. Maybe someone will update Lincoln's axiom about imposing slavery upon its proponents.
I do love google; yes in November of 2005 G W BUSH(league)
"stop throwing the Constitution in my face"..."it's just a goddamn piece of paper"... yeh a piece of paper that I took a truthful oath to uphold, and unlike the liars who run our Federal Government, I took my oath seriously.
I know that there are others of you out there who are wondering just how and where this house of cards will fall...
I hope for the best, still.
"And on that day, many will stand before me saying, 'Lord, Lord, did we not drive out demons and do great works in your name?'
"And I will say, 'Away with you, evildoers! I know you not!"
Somehow, I don't think Christ Jesus, who was subjected to a showboat trial, flogged, crowned with thorns, made to carry a heavy crucifix up a hill, crucified and then skewered with a spear, is going to be looking at waterboarding as a good thing.
anyone and everyone who promotes waterboarding, should be WATERBOARDED. PERIOD
the so called christians like robertson and dodson are fucking crazy, they continually promote torture or threaten death. have they murdered their "GOD". I believe they would do that just to get their way. the christians in this country are more dangerous than any terrorists in the world. i say pack them up and send them to their precious home downstairs with their true god, satan.
Dr. Matt @ 6:
Exactly. I'm convinced that a substantial part the US right wing is comprised of sadists and people with a machismo fetish. The Guckert brand of machismo, I mean. Over the top, really "man's man" sort of stuff, if you know what I mean.
Are you implying that waterboarding each others "extrodinarily renditioned" prisoners is not what Jesus meant by "do unto others"?
At first I thought this was a joke, a satirical video. what the hell?
i'm having a tough time believing this video is serious. it looks so much like a spoof.
is it possible their mothers never showed them any love?( think of Babs, the pillar of compassion for the people of N.O. ) I always ponder the cause of this contempt of the human race by rich white repubs who comprise a tiny fraction of one percent of humanity.
PiL @ 75:
The presentation takes little away from the content, whatever it's supposed to be.
Our nation is in deep DEEP shit ladies and gents!
Here's ample proof of the fallacious reasoning of those stupid imbeciles who think that because they are in the military, they are somehow better human beings than those of us who have never had the blood lust. It's all part of the contemporary creeping jingoism that somehow has allowed soldiers to think that their service automatically makes them superior human beings. Like anything that is morally neutral, the spirit in which that service is carried out is central to whether it's a morally positive activity. If the motivation is, as in Alice's Restaurant, "Shrink, I wanna kill.", then service is a moral detriment. If the motivation is a selfless desire to pay back a debt they feel they owe their country or to otherwise "protect our freedoms" (as opposed to protecting conservative ideology, which is antithetical to freedom and democracy), then said service can only be a moral boon to them. This screwed up idea that military service is by definition ennobling finds it's apotheosis in the pressure that officers put on enlisted men to become Christians nowadays. These war-mongering, amoral cretins who falsely believe they belong to Jesus, actually think they are the standard to which the rest of us should aspire. Sickness! Madness! Evil!!
There was a photo that was circulating on the web just before the 2000 election that was originally posted on a site called Bushart.com; the site was taken over by someone else after the election... but the photo was of Babs (barbra bush) as the "salt sucking monster" of an original Star Trek episode... it was great work and I have tried to find it online with no luck.
Any???
feckless @ 68:
Actually, Murdock is openly gay. Probably the only Bush lapdog to actually admit it.
Symes @ 40:
no, we sentenced a japanese guy to 15 years hard labor.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/04/AR200610...
while serious, waterboarding is not something that merits execution.
There are no "necessary evils."
There are roads to hell paved with justifications and agendas masquerading as good intentions.
Actual wateboarding ain't the least bit funny... but this vid cracked me up.
Mostly, it's the festive latin jazz music playing in the background throughout. Hilarious!
Another great T-shirt idea; "WWJWB?" Who would Jesus water board?
While some on the right have defended waterboarding as a necessary evil in a ticking-time-bomb scenario, Murdock went much further, arguing, “Waterboarding is something of which every American should be proud.”
********************************
Proud that the United States of America -- a country which in times past, many people around the world have considered a beacon for the cause of liberty and human dignity -- has sunk so low that it resorts to torture?!?
I see no reason whatsoever to be proud of that. Far from it...I see no grounds for anything in that other than the deepest and most abject shame. To my way of thinking, anyone who thinks that waterboarding is a good thing is little more than a sadistic and ruthless barbarian who has completely lost touch with any sense of humanity he might have previously possessed.
This is yet another crazy person who writes for yet another national conservative magazine. The problem lies with about 25% of the voting public that don' think he is crazy because they are nuts also. That is what is scary!
Chitown @ 67:
Nah MONEY
The National Review is nothing more than a button down version of the Drudge Report.
Moose @ 84:
But waterboarding is fun!! Just listen to that peppy music in the background! They're having a frikkin fiesta!
Daniel @ 82:
People were executed in WWII because usually waterboarding was not the only thing they committed. Waterboarding is the small sister, the rest of the family comes with her. As usual the right wingers try to use diversionary tactics to the fact, that if you sanction a form of torture, you are de facto sanctioning torture in general. Which is the serious part, not whether or not waterboarding is "unpleasant."
Right wingers are the masters of red herrings, so gotta hand it to them though...
pissed off patricia @ 11:
Well, citizens - and one of "ours" that DeRoy would have given a big "Thumbs Up" to rather than a court-martial.
To be clear, the horror of waterboarding dates back to the dark days of the Spanish Inquisition. Not only was it a popular tool of torture by the likes Pol Pot’s Khmer Rogue in their genocide of 1,500,000 Cambodians; but after World War II the U.S. military tribunal prosecuted several Japanese soldiers for subjecting U.S. soldiers to waterboarding, and in 1968 a U.S. soldier was court-martialed for waterboarding a Vietnamese prisoner.
Although this video is definitely a spoof, it does show what waterboarding actually is and illustrates how some people think it is just a casual and harmless method of interrogation. I knew it was a spoof once I saw the mistakes on the guy's uniform. The "officer" narrating the video has his rank displayed improperly on his shoulders, and he is wearing both the Finance Corps branch insignia (diamond shaped lozenge) as well as the Special Forces branch insignia (crossed arrows) which are both improperly displayed. He also does not have a nametag on his uniform and the unit award is too high above the right pocket flap.
The fact that they're obsessing about waterboarding means that they're using plenty of other extra-legal intrrogation techniques.
Not to take away from the impact of this video, because waterboarding is sick, but this guy isn't a real soldier. His medals and ribbons are all messed up. Hell, he's not even squared-away.
remember - "if the preznit does it, it's not illegal!", says RMN
the video is bullshit, its one of those performance art pieces intended to say to people wake up. call it telling the truth with jokes.
redratio1 @ 28:
I'm telling you, anything that doesn't leave a mark is fair game. I'm sure of that. Waterboarding just got into the spotlight. Once you sanction torture, you're sliding down that slippery slope already. We are such fragile creatures, there are a million horrible things that might be done!! Decent people don't go there. So why is America?
Nicole Belle @ 38:
Yeah, I get that now.....I can pretty dense sometimes....a little slow on the up-take.
The Repugs want to add waterboarding to the Olympics. Soon they will be signing up for waterboarding weekends. These people are sick. amoral, and not human. What more can be said? When can we start the Nuremberg Triall II? We have lost our moral righteousness as a nation. Of course, the enablers that gave the pass on Mukassey who couldn't decide what to think about waterboarding are guilty also.
jimmy @ 60:
Thanks for the links. I'm not sure waht to make of the Cop car with the trade center collapsing in the background. But the YouTube video, showing soldiers administering individualized summary executions en masse, is exactly what Americans need to see.
And I agree: this is the sentiment that motivated the Nazis. But to point to Nazis and Republicans is to imply Democrats are somehow not tainted by this fateful ideology. Tragically, both Left and Right believe in life as holy war. We need to lift up our eyes past election cycles, look deeply into our past and ask, as a people, what are we all about?
Making war and enslaving others is no aberration for us: it's what we do. New Orleans should now be called New Israel. The hand of God cleared the heathen from the land for the chosen people, right? Isn't that our MO? Anyone from the Tribes want to comment? Where's Vine Deloria Jr. when I need him (yes, I know, he left his body a while ago).
Poetically speaking, this is what we do:
We send our machines out as our proxies into the fields of our lord to
make war on our other half in an effort to impress an absentee-landlord/absolute tyrant of the universe we made up as a
projection of our own mental line-making power. Strangely, we've turned into slaves of the corporations we invented in order to enslave others (the first colonies were administered by chartered corporations; see http://celdf.org/ for more info).
Susan Faludi recently has drawn much needed attention to the myth we've been living since 9/11. What were we living before that?
Once upon a time, a Sumerian god, Aot by name, when faced with a famine brought about by the laziness of the gods, decided to create a race of slaves.
Then upon a later time, Zoroaster conceived of the universe as having
once been pure good, but now as being corrupted by a dark and evil
influence. You're either making war on that corrupting influence,
battling to return the cosmos to a pure state, or you are the corrupting
influence.
And again upon a time, when the Habiru invaded Canaan, the priests
inverted the endogenous myths of the goddess, perverting signs and
symbols away from Mother and towards a bachelor Father with a very bad temper.
To this day, we live life as holy war waged upon our own shadow. That's
why the face of the Other terrifies us so: either we show this god how
much we hate the Other, as measured by our violence against them, thus
ensuring our own access to heaven, or we become the evil other.
Extermination of the Other or corruption of our precious selves and
eternal torment, that's the choice.
This devil's bargain is presented to us when we're most vulnerable, in a condition of shock. That's the immeasurable boon brought back to us by our own feminine Prometheus, Naomi Klein. OK, so maybe the praise is a bit over the top, she really has done us a huge favor.
Her Shock Doctrine explains how, from electroconvulsive therapy to torture to economic shock therapy, the goal is the same: induce a state of complete openness to imprinting, just like a hatchling. This is the machining of the human psyche in the manufacture of our consent.
When they want our opinion, they'll frighten and shock-and-awe it into us. They don't intend to engage us as fellow citizens, they don't intend to win hearts and minds, they don't waste time with brainwashing: they just blast our minds and build what they want on the cleared property.
It's a dictator's fondest wish: a remote-control populace.
Rods from God, anybody? Our SPACECOM wants to be able to kill anybody anywhere anytime. They try to use their infernal machine to play god, and end up, as Oppenheimer said, becoming Death, destroyer of worlds. If we allow SPACECOM to succeed, we will have enslaved the planet. That oughta make us REAL popular.
Look at our air force and the seeds of death we sow all over the planet.
Cluster bombs we dropped some 40 years ago will kill children in Cambodia today. Cluster bombs dropped by Israel in the last minutes of the US-sponsored war on Lebanon will likely go on killing for decades, too.
The nemesis of rational thought is the infamous Us Good\Them Bad false dichotomy. Look at our history. Look at your own habits of speech. Compare the positions of the other candidates. Look at how Kucinich has been treated for daring to call for impeachment, and tell me this isn't true: Making war and enslaving others is what we do, even to our own.
dmhlt @ 92:
Yohance @ 25:
This isn't "festive Latin jazz," as somebody erroneously called it.
Make no mistake about it, folks, it's 60's porno film music. [Trust me on this ;-) ]
What do you think this narrator guy is doing with his hands while he's talking?
Yes, it is satire. It was made to be funny.
I'm not laughing.
Cmon guys... take that video down. You know as well as I do that its a spoof video and not a real "leaved tape"
Be genuine guys.. leave the propaganda nonsense to the right.
I said it was fascism years ago, and no one believed me. Now I say they are trying to make a fourth reich.
Bluestocking @ 86:
cleo @ 100:
America will never recover until they pay war reparations to all the families of the dead they have made.
That we are even conducting this discussion is one more proof of how far we have sunk into depravity and degradation as a nation. I long for the day when these cockraoches slink back into the woodwork and the sewers that is their natural habitat. It was not so long ago that the advocates of these abominations would have been too ashamed to speak on behalf of such things in public. The peer pressure alone would have served as forceful reminder of the sickness and meaness of their ideas. There was a time when the vast and overwhelming majority of Americans would have intinctually or rationally perceived the deep depravity of such advocacy. No longer apparently.
Now, these deranged and unworthy people are elected politicians and news "pundits". People who enjoy positions of influence and trust. In large part, we can look to the failure of journalism in this country as a reason, for this, in other words, as a reason why we are failing as a people. One of journalism's roles is to serve as the public conscience. With the consolidation of all journalism and control of information effectively into the hands of 6 persons, all of who seem to lack conscience, the role of journalists has been corrupted into that of propagandist and prostitute, of advocate for the wholly unworthy, whose principal job as a profession is to dumb down and anesthetize the public. Hand in hand with a great many elected politicians, they have become advocates of pointless, monstrous cruelty, cruelty that exists only for its own sake. And many of the anesthetized never question, blindly accept the "arguments".
America's conscience gives evey indication that is is dying an orchestrated death. Other countries have gone through the same process, the killing of national conscience; it has happened in Germany, the Soviet Union, Italy, Spain, Cambodia, Serbia, China and Rwanda. It is insane to think that repeating an identical action will produce different results.
We are so running out of time to get it right.
Shadowgm @ 70:
Speaking of torture, did you know that crucifiction is "just" another stress posititon? Any stress position that is maintained from between 48 to 96 hours will kill. Anaerobic metabolic waste products like lactic acid build to such levels that muscles, including the heart, go into tetany. Hold any stress position long enough, and you die of heart failure - your heart goes into a massive cramp, and you die of a cardiac arrest. A consequence of these interoggations that rely of stress positions, is that the survivors, although not held in the positions long enough to kill, nonetheless acquire lasting coronary disease. Most will live shorter lives as a result. "Stress Position", a euphemism deliberately coined as an assistance in putting the conscience to sleep.
The standard response applies: Let little prick Murdock volunteer to be waterboarded, if he's not too much the coward to do so. Afterwards, AND ONLY AFTERWARDS, is little prick Murdock entitled to offer his extreme opinions on this topic. Come to think of it, after the lil' prick is waterboarded, we'll have to ask him a second question: If Murdock had a son who was a U.S. Marine, one who was captured by the enemy in battle, I assume little prick Murdock wouldn't mind if the "proud" method of waterboarding was used on his son, correct? Hey, if it's appropriate and "pround," then it's appropriate and "proud" even if the guy who's conducting it hails from some Middle Eastern country, right?
It does SO make me want to rendition these people and waterboard them silly on live TV. Luckily I'm Buddhist so I don't do that sorta thing. But the thought does occur to me . . . can't say it doesn't. Really think it would work, too. Empiricism. Can't beat it.
Good point.
Crucifixion = vertical waterless waterboarding.
Loonie @ 77:
EXXXACTLY. Spoof, serious, whatever, it's damn disturbing, and a how-to for those curious to try it.
Regardless of what anyone thinks about waterboarding, TORTURE, this guy is psychotic. The only place HE deserves to be is in a PSYCH WARD somewhere for the rest of his life and busted down to private or thrown out of the military completely. This is disgusting.
"If terrorists suffer long-term nightmares about waterboarding, better that than more Americans crying themselves to sleep after their loved ones have been shredded by bombs or baked in skyscrapers."
I would try and watch my profanity on this, but I can't... WHAT THE FUCK!?! Did this fucking moron tie him self to the tracks and let the stupid train run over him? I thought I heard that fat fuck Limbaugh say some stupid things before, but this takes the cake. If I used waterboarding on my room mate to get his bank account number... I GO TO FUCKING JAIL AND GET SEXUALLY ASSULTED BY SOME GUY NAMED TINY!!! I thought the dipshit fuck-stick we call president was a faith based little turd... Maybe he needs to read the definition of hypocracy. Why do we have so many douche-bags running this country into the ground? I dont get fired up a lot on political issues, but this one really chaps my ass.
Has Bush ever been tested for mental disorders? That's the only thing I can think of to explain all this
bullBushshitIf waterboarding is so very effective and humane, why doesnt this standard get applied to CEOs that wreck the environment to make a buck? Why dont we apply this same standard to the mgmt of companies like Enron or MCI/Worldcom when they decide to destroy employees lives so they can cash out their stocks before they are valueless?...
This is SOOOO fake guys. Come on.
Fake uniform. Facial hair on a soldier? If you know a soldier, they can tell you it is fake from that alone.
Also, videos are rarely classified. If they are, then they need to state the classification. Indeed, they should have a blurb in the corner stating the classification of the present content.
This video is a horrendously bad fake.
Listen, all of you so called Americans... WAR is ugly! Whether it is right, wrong needed or not, our soldiers are in another country fighting where they do not abide by these HUMANE rules we think should be used. If it takes waterboarding or cutting someones arms off to get them to talk I say DO IT!! Do whatever is neccessary to beat these animals who love blowing up Americans without thought. Maybe you would rethink torture if your mother or daughter or father died on 9/11. GO USA!
The video is a fake. While the issue is serious, it is unfortunate that CrooksandLiars is playing on some peoples naivety in even hinting this might be a military video. Officers in the military are clean shaven, they are trained to be professionals, not to be flipant as when the officer drank the bottled water. I do not agree with the current war and some of our policies, but to insinuate this might be real is blurring the line as to if this website is a news and information service or a satire site similar to the Onion.
“If terrorists suffer long-term nightmares about waterboarding, better that than more Americans crying themselves to sleep after their loved ones have been shredded by bombs or baked in skyscrapers.”
The only way to get out of all of this is to permanently debunk the initial lie that America was attacked from beyond its borders.
It was not. 9/11/2001 was a false flag op to justify exactly what has happened since.
If you continue to believe the initial lie then all of the excuses and lies built up on it may stand and still further be built upon with new ones. America and the rest of the world have been had many times over. Time to wake up.
Your military is imprisoned overseas in an endless gulag they will never return from, your treasury has been looted, any rights you enjoyed as independent citizens are gone, millions are losing their homes, immigrants and the poor are being rounded up into KBR work prisons in preparation to be used as a cheap labor force, you dollar is deliberately being tanked to keep you a prisoner in your own country. How much more do you need to see with your own damn eyes before you do something?!!
Wateboarding is in my opinion is acceptable when you have a high value target in your position and that target has information that can save lives. Since when should this evil person that is hell bent on taking innocent lives be treated with dignity and respect? Give them a cell with 3 squares and day? Let them have their religious propaganda and lay around and relax on the US tax payer’s dollar and then complain about how they are being treated? Are we (captured Americans) to expect that we will receive treatment that is dignified and respectful? We all know the answer to that question.
Let us remember that these people we send to the war zones have their hands tied behind their back. They are under big brothers eye for everything they do. You CAN’T win this war if the other side doesn’t have to play by the same rules.
I am a US citizen and have never served in the armed forces. But I believe war is an ugly thing, all facets of it. People need to understand this is not a be nice kind of war.
First, you guys need to calm down. Second, that is a spoof video. You are in such a hurry to detract from the professionalism of our military and intelligence services that you will actually put your counter-propaganda up as "leaked" video...makes you no different than the rest of the moon bats in the world. You want your arguments to be taken seriously? You want to have an actual discussion and debate about what it takes to defend American interest in the REAL world, then do so. But putting this crap up...then "digging it" so that you can push your agenda with false information makes you no different than the people you claim to hate. One could go even further and put you in the same category as terrorist and Islamic fascist. Or groups like Hamas that fake video and pictures to use as propaganda.
You want the truth about "torture"? It works when it is controlled and used as part of a professional intelligence gathering operation. Water-boarding is one of a few proven techniques. It is a standard around the world. Period. Every 1st world country does it...so does every 3rd world country. The difference...since you are so keen on that...the difference between the US and the 3rd world rejects: we stop at Water-boarding. Nothing that happened at Abu-Ghraib was out of bounds. It was all well under what our enemies do.
You have allowed your selves to be played. Our enemies really do torture. They cut off heads. They remove intestines of children, cook them, and feed them to their parents. They cut people up in their torture houses (which were found in Fallujah by US Army and Marine personnel). We Water-board. We deprive captives of sleep, food, and water for a couple days. We have them in uncomfortable positions for hours on end. We give them small electric jolts (well below lethal limits). We take pictures of them in compromising positions and threaten to show them to their families. None of that is "torture". You have allowed yourselves to be used by our enemies and that is the sad thing.
The truth is that all of those things that you consider so vile about our practices are ENDURED by our own military personnel on a daily basis during training. ALL American pilots and special operators go through all of that and more. They are Water-boarded. Deprived of food, water, sleep, and comfort. All in an effort to train them. The average American Soldier is deprived of sleep, food, and water for days on end during training, much less combat. The average basic trainee will spend many, many hours in very uncomfortable positions as a part of his/her training. Please, take a few minutes and put some of your rhetoric into perspective.
It would be an awesome thing if all of you would take a few minutes and actually research before just going off half-cocked because you are so pissed at the other political party and you hate America so much. Open your eyes. Learn the truth...and decide for yourselves. It is time to stop fighting amongst ourselves and put some effort in to fighting those that ACTUALLY do hate us and want to kill us. And when they capture an American...he'll be lucky if he is just water-boarded. More than likely he will be really tortured. His head will be cut off and video taped. That tape will be placed on the internet (not leaked, but intentionally uploaded). His mother will have to watch it. His family will have to endure it. His mutilated body will probably be burned and hung on a bridge, after it is dragged through town and beaten by the shoes of the men in the village. The whole world will watch as his body is treated so poorly and the mob is drunk off of the carnage. Yes...if he is lucky he will be water-boarded then released when they have gained all the useful information they think they can...if he is lucky. Yes, if he is lucky he will have to be water-boarded...an interrogation technique that he has probably already withstood in training. One he knows how to handle calmly and professionally. But he will more than likely not be that lucky...
In parting...just for the facts. We didn't execute German war criminals for "water-boarding", we executed them for killing 6 million Jews with gas and other expedient ways. We executed them for killing thousands of American, British, French, and Russian prisoners by firing squad or just in mass with machine guns in empty fields not far from a prison camp, or on some road some where. Not for torturing them. Please go back to History class.
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As far as I'm concerned, by ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. So what we waterboard them. I don't care. They're not Americans so who are they to demand the rights we've faught for?
One "middle ground guy" here thinks that we're not doinig enough. Eleminate the enemy, not "coerce them into being our friends". And yes, you could probably replace "eleminate" with "exterminate" and I wouldn't change my mind. War isn't pretty, but it appears the lackey's on the west coast would rather have us cow-tow to a bunch of terror mongers. I'd rather eleminate the threat. 3000 of my brothers and sisters were killed to prove a point on Sept of 2001 and now it's OUR issue and I intend to see it to the end. As Americans, I can not fathom how any one of you can have a reaction other than defend ourselves with every tool at our disposal. Yes, there's people in the world that hate us. That isn't the issue. But when that hate turns into attacks on our soil and a disruption to our way of life, well things gotta change.
This site is crazy. You guys use profanity like you were in the Navy.
Heres a hint, the video is a fake.
Here's another hint, the military routinely uses these techniques on its own members. Don't believe me? Watch some videos of SEAL training (not the animal type of seal). The instructors deny them sleep, make them exercise 24/7, make them go into the ocean day and night (and the Pacific is a cold ocean), scream at them, slap them around (when the cameras aren't around), deprive them of food, etc.
SEAL training isn't even the worst. There are courses that you have to sign waivers to take that involve real torture like breaking bones (fingers and toes), getting stuffed in a walk in freezer, caged in the water, black bagged, denied food and water for days and, if you're really tough or too stupid to remember the 'secret', waterboarding. The difference is that the military does it to teach two lessons:
1. Everyone breaks, unless you are too stupid to remember (I really felt sorry for that guy, although the instructors said he was the first all year to have not broken).
2. The 'secret' you are potecting is useless to the enemy after 12-24 hours. Your unit knows you've been captured and anything useful you knew will be changed.
Except for the profanity, you all seem like nice people. Incredibly naive and sheltered, but nice people.
Sorry to interrupt the flow of paranoid delusions... You may return to your regularly scheduled profanity...
What's wrong with these people is this. They have never experienced waterboarding themselves. Not real, determined interrogation waterboarding, and probably not even the weakly delivered FOX News reporter version.
Mr. Murdock conveniently forgets that the United States has officially condemned waterboarding numerous times and occasions stretching back over a hundred years ago. "The U.S. government -- whether acting alone before domestic courts, commissions and courts-martial or as part of the world community -- has not only condemned the use of water torture but has severely punished those who applied it. ... As far back as the U.S. occupation of the Philippines after the 1898 Spanish-American War, U.S. soldiers were court-martialed for using the "water cure" to question Filipino guerrillas. ... In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions. This generally included the placement of a towel over the nose and mouth of the prisoner and the pouring of water in the towel until the prisoner began to move, jerk, or otherwise indicate that he was suffocating and/or drowning." -Washington Post, 2 November 2007.
Waterboarding is torture. It provides in a form convenient for the interrogator a way to literally drown and suffocate the subject in a controlled manner, over and over again, until the subject "confesses" whatever the interrogator wants to hear. The drowning process is damaging to the body with real and irreversible damage to the nervous system, brain, lungs, and internal tissues. Mr. Murdock is completely out of touch with reality.
Perhaps Mr. Murdock would demonstrate his confidence in the benign nature of waterboarding by allowing himself to be subjected to a determined interrogation.
The most dangerous warmongers are those who have never been in war.
This method is a NECESSARY part of war. Why are some of you people so soft.
Do you REALLY think that these people we are fighting are nice or would be nice to you if you were their captive?
Most of you I agree with and we are all on the same page at some point. Which is do what it takes to protect this country.
this isnt real. this dude uniform is not professional
John @ 2:
Wait, are you talking about Murdock or a group of terrorists? I suppose it can be hard to tell them apart these days, what, with both factions serving their interests and the interests of those they care about without regard to others.
Bit NOLA @ 3:
I would like to point out that it isn't because they are republicans, because no matter how much the say they are they aren't. I'm proud to say that I am. I believe in small government and a states right to govern them selves, let alone the rights of people to rule there own lives. The type of people we are talking about are fascists not republicans.
This movie is obviously a fucking fake you gullible bastards.
This is fake, you fucking morons.
J @ 126:
I live in the USA, my country does not torture people. I don't know where my country went.
When your country becomes more vile than your enemy, it becomes self-destructive. Allowing your enemy to change the character of your country does not protect it, it plays right into the enemys hands.
The method is not at all necessary, there are psychological techniques that are hundreds of times more effective than torture. They are more expensive and require some training, but are far more effective. You'll get more credible information with carrots than with sticks, it's common sense.
I also love how national security is usually the cause when civil liberties are taken away as well. Bravery means facing our enemies without changing the character of our country. Only a coward will advocate robbing us of freedoms and barbaric torture in the name of national security. I say live free or die, I'd rather die free than live in tyranny.
Fake.
I don't see what the big deal is... the only reason you people are flipping out is because of the fact that this crap is getting mainstream attention and because it's torture. They could be chopping peoples fingers off and shoving blades in them, than I could understand the plight, but pouring water on someone? Come on. The attention this is getting is out of control, it's getting more attention than Blackwater for christ sake.
WHEN IS MEDIA MATTERS BEING DEFUNDED? SOON I HOPE.
RYAN @ 130:
No Shit Sherlock. I really dont care if the video is fake or not. My number one question for all of this is why are we spending time and resources on this crap? All we are debating right now is wether or not this is torture. We know it is, but that doesnt mean they are gonig to stop using it. Why can't are leaders keep thier eye on the major problems of this country?
This is obviously a fake video. I concur with JW in pointing out that the officer in the video is not clean-shaven, and is also wearing his captain bars incorrectly. these are ridiculously obvious flaws in this botched attempt to make the military look bad. also, any officer who briefed a subject in such an unprofessional manner would never be allowed the opportunity to be in any training videos.
Familys of people that died in the twin towers were tortured.. This is a nothing compared to being burnt to death and/or having a building fall on you.. You dweebs have to remeber who started ALL this crap.. It wasn't us, but while I don't totally agree with everything Bush has done, I'm very glad he's our president now and not John F*ing Kerry. Hopefully you lefties will wake up one day before it's too late for you. Your party has never done anything for America, but raise taxes and support everything that goes against our Constitution.. Pitiful
mcrown @ 136:
Yes, in the real issues lie here, in this blog, with your grammatical errors and spelling mistakes.
Hmm, maybe if you handed over your Oxy pads the "leaders" could have a viable alternate energy source, and introduce it before Iowa?
This video is completely faked. While the method might be based in reality, the person guiding you through the method is NOT a member of the military.
"the captain's bars are turned the wrong way, he needs a shave, he has no nametag, his ribbon on the left is cockeyed, etc."
DONT BE FOOLED
Dr. Matt @ 23:
Why do non-Paulians obsess on something that they disapprove of so much?
Has anyone else noticed that this Airforce captain is wearing infantry pins on his lapel, is unshaven, and for some reason there is really benny hill music playing softly in the background? I think this is a fake...I'm just saying.
Steve @ 142:
It's a new dress code for the army, the most of us have determined anyways, which is explained easily by the authenticity of this video.
I am at work, so I cannot see the video. (Damn firewalls). Now, I didn't take the time to read all of the posts on here, but there were a few that I think should be addressed. For example, one of the earlier posts calls us a fascist country. And another states reich-wing pornography. Hmmmmm.......Now, what was said about the terrorists on 9/11? What is being said about all of our men and women dying in this war? Would you rather torture or be tortured? I believe the term that we can refer to at this point, is "Dog eat Dog", oh, and then there is "Nice guys finish last". For example, we became very complacent in the months/years prior to 9/11. Well, we woke up real quick now, didn't we? So, the way I see it, if we total up all of the dead from terrorist attacks and war since 2001, we are looking at around 7,000 Americans. Now, I don't know about you, but they deserve some type of justice. Some peace. I promise you, none of them died peacefully. It was painful. Some burned. Some were tortured. Some were crushed. American women and children were killed. Innocent lives were lost.
Maybe it's just me, but if I had to hurt someone to make sure that my family was able to feel safer at night, then I would have no problem with it. Waterboarding, bone breaking, ripping fingernails out. And there are plenty of people here that are entitled to their opinions. But, please remember that you are living in the same country that grants you those very liberties while you insult the way they secure them for you. People have, are, and will continue to die for our way of life. That is a fact of life. But please remember that no matter who you are, there are Americans that are willing to suffer for you, and/or inflict pain to protect you.
Semper Fi.
Your all a bunch of weenies, if we need to torture some asshole to prevent a disaster, then we do it. If your so adverse to the thought of protecting our home land, move to sweden!
xSledgewick @ 134:
Waterboarding is not pouring water ON someone. It is pouring water IN someone. Suffocating to the point of unconsciosness. Bit of a difference there. Try again.
Fugging Nazi. It's totally unbelievable what this country has become, all of the very things we once stood against we now are.
Richie Rich @ 144:
Maybe it's just me, but I don't need someone to simulate drowning on someone they pulled off a camel in the middle of the desert in order to feel safe at night. I already feel safe. I'd feel safer, in fact, if our government didn't start down this slippery slope. I fear the tyranny of government much more than some mere threat of terror. I'd feel safer if we secured our own borders instead of interferring in the civil wars of third world countries.
Why should I trust the government to kidnap and torture people responsibly? I can't trust them to deliver my mail on time or to pay me social security (in 30 years, even though I'm taxed for it), why should this be any different?
Dr. Matt @ 27:
And you have to look back at their outcome. Some of those guards were bound to have been executed for war crimes. How did this country get reduced to arguing about the propriety of war crimes?
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