Democratic South Carolina Debate: Obama, Clinton Take The Gloves Off
By Logan Murphy Sunday Jan 20, 2008 8:54pm
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During tonight's Democratic presidential debate in South Carolina, Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama engaged in what is by far the most heated and ugly exchange in the 2008 campaign and brought boos from the audience. Clinton brings up Obama's past statements on Iraq and refers to a recent statement he made about Ronald Reagan -- and it was on.
Clinton accused Obama of not being consistent in his statements about Iraq and his stance on Republican programs and Obama shot back sharply. There's plenty of nastiness in this exchange, both candidates took brutal shots at each other:
Obama:"...Because when I was working on those streets watching those folks see their jobs shipped overseas, you were a corporate lawyer sitting on the board of Wal-Mart. I was fighting these fights."
Clinton:"I was fighting those ideas while you were practicing law and representing your contributor, Rezko, in his slum-landlord business in inner city Chicago."
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I hate it when Mom and Dad fight.
At least they're more articulate than my Mom and Dad
Albatross @ 1:
This is the first time the first comment in a post here hasn't annoyed me.
meOW! saucer of milk for two!
Wow. Bought time. I really enjoy them doing this, shows their true nature. Go Obama!
Albatross @ 1:
Maybe they'll get a divorce and Edwards will get custody of America.
And what happened to that "truce" they had a few days ago..?
She's a divider, not a uniter.
Ruthless People @ 6:
If only ...
Even if Hillary is a devil-worshipping lesbian cannibal as some say, she's still smarter than the Republican field combined.
ah hell nah! you didn't just say "take the gloves off!" that's such a cliche in this campaign, come up with something else.
am i the only one who thinks john edwards was kicking ass in this debate?
stupid applauses , whey does CNN allow applauses??!!!!!!!!!!!!
I want Obama to win
Ozymandias @ 10:
Probably, but smart doesn't win presidencies. If it did, W would still be governor of Texas.
Ozymandias @ 10:
No, but got got in late.
Edwards sounds good the same reason Kusinich sounded good when he debated: it's impossible for him to win!
At least not this time...
He might still be president one day. He won't sound quite as good, but we'll remember all this stuff fondly.
joshsirjoshules @ 11:
Wrong comment. No, but I got in late.
It was ugly, but it was like looking at the nerdiest kid in school take on the bully during lunch. it was ugly, but you knew he had to do it.
I thought they were both pretty civil.
Obama won that one.
Edwards made the only salient point at the end of the clip
This debate has me supporting Edwards. He can point out differences between himself and the others without slinging mud. Obama showed his dark side tonight. He was condescending towards Edwards, like Edwards was a little kid invited by mistake to watch the grown-ups play. Unfortunately, the grown-ups acted like children and Edwards shined as a witty, intelligent, sincere southern gentleman. He received a lot of applause from the audience and would pose a serious threat to Republicans, especially in the South.
Got to debate late; watching only last one and one-half hours, but thought that
each of them did rather well, OR when compared to the Repug debatees, GREAT.
Gessuz wolf blitzer ALWAYS shamelessly self promoting , jumping on stage pimping the next 2 events , hyping his web site during the debate, but hey I'm just a Goyim , what do I know about sensationalism and hype .
Great job pitting one against each other CNN, typical sensationalistic crap questioning , but what I wish the pathetic , oh hear we go ...listen to the buzz words ...from "intensity ".." fireworks ' " going after each other ' ...get the MIND SET ? Not any particular issue . not asking what this bumper sticker , that I hear ALL the time , yet nobody bothers to ASK , " WHAT do you mean by " protecting out interests " (hillary Clinton said) when speaking about U.S. bases , troops in the middle east or keeping the occupation of Iraq going .
This is the key to the occupation , sending U.S. military to die for unnecessary wars and for continuing the occupation and why U.S. military should stay in the middle east , creating blow back from the resentment of U.S. occupations . I wanna know who's interests are really being served . Mine, yours or JP MORGAN and the Rockefeller's .
As usual CNN ( Blitzer) just like the last " debate" created another circus and shoutfest , and why they still get to run any debate is ridiculous .
I thought it was a great debate and that Hillary won hands down. Obama came across as stuttering and weak to me and it didn't help that Edwards sided with Hillary to attack him on a number of issues. She's the strongest candidate to take on the Republicans.
Wow, vote for the scumbag or vote for the douche bag. Or vote for the republican? I don't think so. None of them need my vote anyway. Why don't we just let the corporations and big media decide for us?
Fuck her. She's no better than Rove. Push the buttons, push the buttons. Get the press riled up. Another news cycle, please. Watch the dems dissolve. Great job, Hil. Where's the tears??? Where's the soft side that won you N.H.???
She's a cold-blooded, calculating, triangulating, self-serving machine. Reminds me of Edward Norton's character in Primal Fear. Say anything, anytime. The end always justifies the means. And she'll likely be the nominee. The best thing for McCain, 'cause it will cause all kinds of folks like me to re-think who will bring "real change" to Washington.
Fuck her.
Not sure what it means, but during her tirade, Hillary didn't look at Obama. she looked at the audience, and her eyes slid somewhat in OB's direction, but she never really looked at him.
By the way, was I the only one to note that most of the question posed(at least
during time I watched) seemed to be race related. Could it possibly be that such
was the case because it was MLK Day?...and of course in S. Carolina?
Hillary is a paranoid nag. I really hope she's not nominated. She will in fact galvanize the Repigs and even a lot of Democrats and Independents to vote against her. Go Edwards (or Obama)! Hillary is NOT CHANGE!
Hey, C&L guy, the boos were specifically for Clinton (after the "slum-lord" comment), not for Clinton AND Obama.
What is it with this web site's soft spot for the Clintons?
c_ray_86 @ 5:
Yes, Go Away.
He associated with Rezko for years and gladly accepted Rezko's contributions and political maneuvering, and favors went back and forth between them, but he has the gall to call out Hillary Clinton for serving on the board of Wal-Mart. Nor did he return the $40K until the Rezko crap came into close proximity with the media fan.
No way he didn't know Rezko's true character.
We are all too familiar with Ms. Clinton's warts, but Obama's are just beginning to show and the GOP is licking their chops to get hold of this silver-tongued talker. He beat Alan Keyes in Illinois. BFD.
jmac @ 23:
you have to be kidding, she lied and got pie-faced for it, and couldnt properly fight back the rest of the night. her biggest attack after this exchange was resoundly booed.
you'd have to be deaf to think she won. She was strongest on health care because Obama is too nuanced, however she certainly didn't win.
brithumeistheantichrist @ 25:
Same observation can be easily made as to McCain since there are many, many, many
Repug's who find him evil(not Christian enough), therefore I have been told by some
of those who feel that way, that they will stay home and not vote on election day
should McCain be the nominee.
I recognize that the title of this post alludes the the fight between Obama and Clinton, and given that I feel Obama won, I can't be completely upset about that. That being said, I think you should have then, or in the very near future focus on Edwards' response to the Clinton/Obama flap. I realize that you just brought attention to the core issues at/in the heart of the Edwards campaign with the post about the letter from Martin Luther King III, but people who may have missed out or would like to further reflect on the actual, substantive points made during this debate need to hear his whole response.
The only thing worse than watching Clinton and Obama sling mud is watching Edwards not know how to capitalize by just repeating his anti-lobbyist/anti-PAC mantra over and over and over. He would be much more appealing if he didn't sound like a broken records.
The "present" vote controversy from Clinton is so easily explained and so profoundly unimportant that it is funny. Attacking a guy for a sound legislative strategy or for having legitimate concerns about a bill is evidence of a candidate and a campaign that fundamentally doesn't understand how the legislative process works.
She should stick to being a professional victim.
Clinton:”I was fighting those ideas..."
Wait, fighting against what? Against Wal-Mart's policies?
If thats the case, she failed worse in changing Wal-Mart than Rudy Guiliani failed at serving New York.
The Rezko line was a non-sequiter that made her look like the vicious rabid power-seeker she really is. An out-of-the-blue roundhouse hook that landed with a thud. This from the witch of Whitewater, the twat of travelgate... and innumerable other oddities from her background. I sincerely wish she and her husband will start to show more class.
As Ann Coulter said a long time ago, "John Edwards is the real threat"...meaning that the Republicans are secretly the most scared about John Edwards than any other Democratic candidate. They WANT Hillary or Obama to be the nominee.
I notice Obama started the ATTACK mode. Clinton cleaned his clock. He probably thought he'd try some "Chicago Smackdown" and reduce her to tears. WRONG. No doubt about it, Clinton has got the stuff to be president.
You know it just occurred to me, for what its worth, in a race (as the MSM narrates it) between a black man and a white woman, all the friction so far seems to be racial. I don't think (not that I follow too closely) I've seen a lot of gender based friction, at least coming from the candidates.
Maybe cause it's MLK-day? Is it just me?
Why does Hillary hate America?
Hopefully America was watching and vote for Edwards or Kucinich.
jmac @ 23:
must be all that lobbiest money she takes!
coleshack @ 20:
In case you haven't notice, Obama is condescending to EVERYONE. It's his natural personality. You almost never see this guy smiling. He always has that irritated smirk on his face that he must have learned from W after he got to D. C. He's always looking like it's a shame everybody isn't perfect like he is.
He got his butt kicked tonight.
kaT @ 38:
So... just because Hilary has tough skin, she has the stuff to be President? Is that what this really is? If Hilary is enough of a man to be President? Is that how people view this?
No wonder this election is pretty much hopeless. "Is Hilary man enough to be President?" and "Is Obama white enough to be President?" are the only questions people seem to want to ask. Sickens me.
Terrible @ 41:
Hello!?!? America wasn't watching. Family Guy reruns, back2back on TBS!
Wolf fucking Blitzer needs a FREE TRANSFER to Fox.
What a fucking arsehole he is.
That's asshole to you lot over there.
Obama threw the first punch with the first question and she came back and punched harder. Exactly what I want to see in the Democratic candidate. Obama could not defend his positions and actually got laughed at with his defense on his vote on the credit card limits. Goon - did you even watch the debate?
Hillary is really starting to turn me off more and more. Her tactics and lack of class keep shining through more prominently as we go forward. If she ends up getting the nomination, I may just not vote at all in the election.
razzledazzle @ 37:
That's pure BS; especially if anyone is relying upon ANYTHING Ann C*nt had to say.
kaT @ 38:
Obama started the attack? Who brought up the Reagan lie? She got her clock cleaned and all the news reports are now explaining how she flat out LIED! The crowd resoundly BOOED HER when she had the gall to call on someone elses integrity.
smackdown indeed.
Doggiebobo - In truth, I will not vote for McCain. But I am disturbed by the way she handles Obama in these debates. She can turn on sympathy in a viewer just as easy as she can cause one to despise her. I sense I would not like her were we to meet. She is a polarizing figure and her attacks in these fora show her true nature. That said, I am also uncomfortable with her painting herself as an agent of change. She's just another agent of status quo. Bush, Clinton, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Clinton...
kaT @ 43:
jmac @ 47:
I watched a debate where the crowd called her on her bullshit and booed her out of the building? Was there a debate on a rerun of Seinfeld that I missed?
Man, I hope Edwards stays in this race all to the end. He can make a difference. And after watching those two duke it out, I hope Edwards is able to make a difference.
Obama and Clinton... Corrupt and Corrupter
Hillary is nothing but a sad joke and a fascist, ron paul will beat her.
I personally loved the snide "Sometimes I can't tell who I'm running agaisnt.." comment by Barak was awesome. If Hilliary allows Bill to sling mud on her behalf then she can't turn around in a debate an say "Well, that was Bill not me!". Can't have it both ways Senator. Why does the MSM hate Edwards sooooo much. Barely gets any camera time even in a debate. Oh yea, they're all owned by coorporations.
from:
"Don't forget the #1 tactic of an abuser. Isolation. Don't let the victim ever find out that they don't have to endure. And today... where is the coverage of John Edwards? Don't fall for the oldest trick in the book. If they say it enough times, then people will believe it must be the truth. Hillary was a certainty that they could handle. Obama is the new certainty that they can keep dicking around for 8 years. John Edwards knows their bullshit and they know that he is the only real threat.
John Edwards for President in 2008. Take our country back from these bastards... or they will continue to take our freedom until he have none left. And we ALL, here at Kos, know that this is true."
brithumeistheantichrist @ 36:
You could show some more class, yourself.
A word on the health care plans of obama and clinton.
I think we all learned from Sicko that the real issue is not so much that people cannot afford health care, but that people who do have health care get screwed over by the insurance companies. Not to mention the huge number of people who can't even get health care because they can't pass the background check to get care.
Obama's plan is to lower costs for people, but even with lower costs, who is to say the insurance companies won't fight harder to get their money back? I don't think his plan will make anything better. We need universal care, and get covered for everything.
I enjoyed the debate,except for wolf. I didn't like the stupid (I think) question: 'Was Bill Clinton Americas first black president?'......sorry...but that had nothing to do with the 3 debating. That must have been a stupid cnn idea to 'get a rise out of them,for ratings'.
Who did I think won the debate?....only my the voting booth will know that,no diebold hopefully. Who lost?....the republicans,thats the ones to beat.
That was pretty entertaining, I thought Obama won, though Hillary put up a good fight. Obama comes off as a lot quicker on his feat and that he's being extemporaneous. Hillary is good, but all her lines sound rehearsed. Though, hardly anyone will notice it. She still wins the nomination though. Thats a pity. Obama is clearly a lot smarter and funnier.
It seemed that Hillary was shown multiple times to have put forth flatly untrue statements. Obama did well to rebut these comments. He fought back and showed he won't take the Clintons misrepresenting and spinning his background, misrepresenting him, and so forth.
They were both tarnished by these exchanges, but Clinton ended up looking the worse for it.
My god, best line of the night:
OBAMA: Well your husband did
CLINTON: Well, I'm here, he's not
OBAMA: Well I can't tell who I'm running against sometimes
brithumeistheantichrist @ 25:
"...all kinds of folks like me to re-think who will bring "real change" to Washington."
God save us from "folks like you". You'll vote for McCain??? What crap.
A word on the health care plans of obama and clinton.
I think we all learned from Sicko that the real issue is not so much that people cannot afford health care, but that people who do have health care get screwed over by the insurance companies. Not to mention the huge number of people who can’t even get health care because they can’t pass the background check to get care.
Obama’s plan is to lower costs for people, but even with lower costs, who is to say the insurance companies won’t fight harder to get their money back? I don’t think his plan will make anything better. We need universal care, and get covered for everything.
Obama made a big mistake bringing up Ronald Reagan, and saying that Republican are the party of ideas. Why would someone seeking the Democratic nomination say something that can so easily be interpreted as supporting the opposition party? A rookie mistake, and Clinton was right in callin him on it.
And if Obama can't stand up to criticism from Bill Clinton, how in the hell will he be able to withstand the attacks that will come his way from the Republican smear machine?
Obama is clearly not ready for prime time -- maybe in eight years, but not today.
BAC
Sean @ 66:
If you want to bring up lessons from "Sicko", you can't omit that Hillary has been bought and paid for and now a friend of those she's supposedly against. I don't trust her to follow through on her promise whatsoever.
Obama, never says anything....All rhetoric..He doesn't believe in anything but serving himself and cant make the hard decisions...."Present"...what the hell kind of responsible vote is that?....give me a break, and why does even his latest tv spot align him with Republicans....?he cant win the general, especially against McCain.
Obama 2008
The debate just confirmed it for me!
Obama started the attack? Who brought up the Reagan lie? She got her clock cleaned and all the news reports are now explaining how she flat out LIED! The crowd resoundly BOOED HER when she had the gall to call on someone elses integrity.
Exactly true. I was pleased to see that the audience didn't let her get away with it, either.
I personally loved the snide “Sometimes I can’t tell who I’m running agaisnt..” comment by Barak was awesome. If Hilliary allows Bill to sling mud on her behalf then she can’t turn around in a debate an say “Well, that was Bill not me!”. Can’t have it both ways Senator.
I was thinking the same thing as I watched. If Bill is going to be the bad guy for his wife's campaign, Hillary doesn't get to stand there in the debate and pretend her hands aren't covered in mud. The Clintons are consummate campaigners, but hopefully voters are smart enough to see through these kinds of tactics.
Where was Edwards? He was a halogram again. He was there, then he was not. F**k CNN. I am really tired of the media picking our candidates. I hope C&L will give us more of the debate. Even after Wolf finally recognized Edwards, nobody got to see it.
The more I see her operate the more I hate her.
There's no "milk of human kindness" in that woman.
Rosie Marie you are just a women supporting another woman look at the polls Obama has a higher chance of beating McCain that Clinton...Do some damn research
BAC @ 67:
Obama made a big mistake bringing up Ronald Reagan, and saying that Republican are the party of ideas.
Well, Obama never actually said that, but whatever.
We cannot let Hillary be the candidate. Sure, another Clinton presidency is better than any Republican (and I don't really doubt that she'll win), but this... really does not give me a lot of hope for the future.
LT @ 64:
I think shots like that only help HRC. It's like Obama's saying that a married woman is only an appendage of her husband. There have to be plenty of women who will take that personally and rally around HRC.
But, yeah, good line, because it's kinda funny, but it's bad politics.
Rose Marie @ 69:
If you actually read anything, you'd know that "present" in Illinois politics means that they are not willing to completley vote it down, but reject the bill in its current state. Its not something that is well explained in 2 minute soundclips.
Think of Kerry and how he 'voted for it before he voted against it' - its a nuanced position that doesnt sound good, but when you look at it in detail it makes sense. If Kerry could have boted 'present' instead of against it the second time, he would have, because its a matter of being for the bill but declaring that it needs work.
Clinton crushed Obama, Obama whined, then Edwards took over.
And if Obama can’t stand up to criticism from Bill Clinton, how in the hell will he be able to withstand the attacks that will come his way from the Republican smear machine?
Seems like he stood up to it pretty well. He hit back and rebutted it so effectively that Hillary ended up looking like an unscrupulous liar, so much so that the audience booed her for it.
Exactly.
There have been many attacks on Hillary from conservative media only because that's what they know best and since they are so disorganized right now they are going on instinct only. But when they come under their candidate, even if they don't all really want Mccain, they will be the most offensive and sickening attack machine against Clinton or Obama. It doesn't matter. It might be worse that it's Obama because at least with Clinton, you know they are recycling criticism. They'll dig up so much on Obama that will make everyone think differently about him.
Clinton crushed Obama, Obama whined, then Edwards took over.
LOL!
I think you were watching another debate...
Andy K @ 78:
"It's like Obama's saying that a married woman is only an appendage of her husband."
not "A" married woman, but "THIS" married woman. it wasnt this way all along, but Bill has stepped in to a degree that he looks like a puppet master would be co-president, much like at times in the 90s Hillary was accused of the same and Bill was portrayed as well, pussy whipped. If Hillary wants to be overshadowed by an overly aggressive husband playing good cop/bad cop, that her business, but its getting on a lot of peoples nerves.
Obama kicked ass. Take that, Walmart woman!
Both Clintons are turning me totally OFF. This has to stop or they are going to make the Democrats lose the Whitehouse again. I don't think we can take anymore Hill and Bill and Bushes.
Goon @ 50:
It was not a lie. It simply wasn't. Read the transcripts yourself. He's trying to spin his way out of it right now, but he clearly said that Reagan was responding to the "excesses" of the 60s? What "excesses" Barack? Was it the civil rights movement "excesses" that you didn't like? How about the "excesses" of medicaid which reduced elderly poverty by half? Was it voting rights "excesses" that you didn't like Barack? Reagan clearly wasn't running against the militarism of the 60s, so what are you talking about?
Barack, again, shows that he is not this great transformer that he pretends to be. He says he's this uniter but he uses Rovian tactics to take snippets of Hillary or Bills speeches in order to paint a completely false picture of the two being racist.
And once again, there's a double standard. Barack makes a crack about her working at Walmart and that's fair game, she comes back with his working for Rezko and, all of a sudden, it's a cheap shot.
This is not good for the Democratic Party. The more these two fight, the more the "undecided voters" become disillusioned and think about voting for the Republican nominee. I hate to see them tear each other down like this, because it is sure going to be awkward when one of them has to support the other one during the general election. It reminds me of the election for Governor of Alabama back in 1985 when the two Democrats fighting for the party nod had pissed off everyone so much that the Republican dark horse snuck in and won the race. There's a little more to the story, and if you want to know it, look up "Guy Hunt" on wiki or something.
Just my observations and my opinion
Obama remind me of a lot of politician in my original country, Indonesia, (in a good way) where he spent most of his childhood there. I understand where his stance from. It's the core of Indonesian politics where everyone "get along along political parties" to reach an agreement. Obama is very articulate person, persuasive and passionate. But i just don't think he's the answer, but i will take him any day over republicans. Hillary Clinton took tough issues on real policies. Even unpopular one. The problem now is to reverse Bush policies. Obama still have not adequate understanding of the impacts of what Bush's policies done to the people and he has no idea what the impact of reagan's policies. He always look at reagan because of his charm and appeal to democrats, not the policies, therefore, he's not ready yet.
These stupid Dems are tearing each other apart and leaving them open in a General Election.
Damn political egos.
Steve Charb @ 85:
Haha i rather take a Walmart woman than a Rezko's man. Safer for my life at least.
ah... divide and conquer. Edwards needs to step it up.
This was a major mistake by Hillary. A man with strong convictions is regarded as a good leader, and a woman is considered a b#tch.
Obama's regard for Reagan is not good. Reagan was the beginning of the end for the middle class. It started with the air traffic controllers union and rolled on from there.
GO EDWARDS!!!!
+50 slimy bitch points to Clinton
Insipid @ 87:
You're the one spinning here, pal, strawmanning about what excesses he's talking about. As for EXCESSES, do you not remember free love and drugs, how Reagan and America started hating hippies? Whether or not Obama considers them excesses, the country did and Reagan's view prevailed. Period.
LT @ 64:
Maybe he should ask Michelle or Oprah or McClurkin or Rev. Caldwell who he's running against.
It doesn't seem like the republicans have the perfect white candidate. Well republicans rejoice, you can vote for Edwards and have the perfect white president.
Insipid @ 87:
And once again, there's a double standard. Barack makes a crack about her working at Walmart and that's fair game, she comes back with his working for Rezko and, all of a sudden, it's a cheap shot.
both are cheapshots. Just one is much worse than the other. Hilary being a board member on Wal-Mart means she is everything Democrats do not want. Hell, Obama should just start calling her "Hilary-Mart"
Clinton comes across as being incredibly devisive in that debate, I guess thats why wolfie loves her.
Nice snappy comeback by Obama though "Well, I can't tell who I'm running against sometimes".
One thing I cant understand is how Hillary supporters cant' decide if Obama is this evil smear machine or a wimp who can't take on the Republicans.
So no one is worried this constant bashing between each other will divide the party and basically hand the Repubs the General in a nice neat bow?
Again, stupid Dems.
Goon @ 31:
Take the issue of health insurance for example, where Obama openly lied about mandated coverage, its effects, and who would be left in the proverbial cold, only to be sharply rebuked by Clinton and Edwards. Afterwards, he responded to their 'That's not at all true, Barack!' outcries with the same talking-points he had used a few minutes earlier, which were no longer really applicable to what they were saying.
I think this solidified my support for Edwards, but I was impressed how easily Obama fought back when attacked. This does show why it is so hard for a Senator to run for President... too long a voting record that can be mis-characterized and taken out of context. Bottom line is that to get what you want in the Senate, sometimes you have to deal and vote against your better judgment. It's called politics. That's why Kerry got spanked by "I voted for it before I voted against it."
Straight Shooter @ 95:
Obama can be just as low and slimy, if not moreso, than Hillary Clinton, but only she is vilified for it. It's weird.
I hope these guys can make up when it's all said and done. I want one of these three on stage to be in the White House. Maybe 2 of these 3 will be on the same ticket.
dm @ 54:
Is Obama a black male version of Hillary or is Hillary a white female version of Obama? The more they talk the less of a difference I can see between the two of them. I never cared for Hillary and the more I hear of Obama the less I like him. The fact that Edwards has no chance is really depressing.
I sent this message to Edwards campaign yesterday.
I think you need to go to the progresiive radio advertising. The regular MSM is not going to cover you and financing that kind of advertising will use up your campaign funds. As the Rueters article pointed out, they are afraid of you John. On progressive radio, Ed Schultz, Thom Hartmann and others have given you more airtime than any of the MSM. I think you will benefit much more by reaching more of the progressive voter without the negative and dismissive attitude the MSM has given you.
We love your ideas John and the corporate media does not.
I urge you all to send a message also. The mainstream media will not give John the face time in MSM. Progressive radio is the fastest growing market in the airways. Do what you can, please.
It seems to me that the Clintons desperately want the campaign to heat up and become divisive. Bill is unfortunately doing his best to drag this into the mud, with Hillary smiling all the way. Obama then has to hit back and defend himself, and that way, he ends up getting mud on his shirt.
The Clintons want everyone covered in mud, because their whole mode of politics is wrangling in the mud. The most damaging thing to them in this campaign is that Obama is a candidate of Hope. If they can tarnish him with these exchanges, they think they can get Hillary to win. Unfortunately, it just means that the country loses in the process. But, in the Clintons' calculation, that's okay, as long as she becomes President.
Bill and Hillary had their chance. Eight years in the White House to enact whatever they felt was their highest priorities. I don't think the American people should buy into the Clinton's concept of dynasty, nor enable their divisive scorched-earth approach to politics.
Goon @ 94:
That's NOT what Barack said. He was talking about the growth of GOVERNEMENT not the diminishing of values. Here is Baracks quote:
I don't want to present myself as some sort of singular figure. I think part of what's different are the times. I do think that for example the 1980 was different. I think Ronald Reagan changed the trajectory of America in a way that Richard Nixon did not and in a way that Bill Clinton did not. He put us on a fundamentally different path because the country was ready for it. I think they felt like with all the excesses of the 1960s and 1970s and government had grown and grown but there wasn't much sense of accountability in terms of how it was operating. I think people, he just tapped into what people were already feeling, which was we want clarity we want optimism, we want a return to that sense of dynamism and entrepreneurship that had been missing.
Here he is CLEARLY complaining about the growth of government in the 60s and PRAISING Reagan for working hard to dismantle government programs that have helped MILLIONS of people. Again, he was CLEARLY praising Reagan for changing the trajectory of America. Basically, he won points from Obama for dismantling the great society and, largely, the New Deal. Spin it all yo want, but you can't read that passage and come up to any other conclusion.
Geo @ 107:
Hold on a second, it was Barack that took Bills words out of context and claimed that he was calling his ENTIRE campaign a "fairy tale" it was Barack that decided to take Hillary's very true statement about the history of the 60s and turn it into a put down of MLK. Who's being devisive?
Ruthless People @ 6:
Fuckin' bravo!! I couldn't have said that better myself, Ruthless P. I'm really getting sick of these two. I'm getting sick of the juvenile sniping while our country is on the express track to Hell. I want to hear a candidate talk about THE FUCKING ISSUES THAT MATTER, not what he did or she did twenty fucking years ago! Gimme Edwards or I'm staying home on Election Day!
Ruthless People @ 105:
While i'll actively campaign for ANY of thes candidates if they win, i do agree with this statement.
And i'm going to bed crying because Al Gore isn't in this race. Sob!
Ruthless People @ 105:
If their skin color and genitalia were the same , you'd believe you were gazing at clones .......Neither Clinton nor Obama says anything containing SUBSTANCE ; it's all milling around , skirting around the outer edges of things.
Nothing substantive , just great sound bites............
Filthy Harry @ 45:
then i was not alone
Dharma Pup @ 13:
lol...the best post i read tonight
Hillary played the attack dog back in the day when Bill was running - now it's his turn, and he's getting a lot more press for it than she did, obviously, since he's an articulate two-term ex-president who was impeached for lying under oath. Do we want the Clinton circus again for four or eight more years, or can we all just move on? I mean, those were good times and all, but what happened to the dynasty fatigue?
25's got it right; if HRC is the nominee, then the Republican candidate, especially McCain, looks like the best vote for change, and that's ridiculous.
joshsirjoshules @ 11:
Shawnmeat @ 103:
It isn't weird, really. The GOP has been going after the Clintons for years and years, and the so-called liberal media (Chris Matthews comes to mind) can't seem to get a grip on their Clinton Derangement Syndrome. After years of this barrage of CDS, the American public has developed a false image of Ms. Clinton.
Obama is the figurative new kid on the block, but tonight showed more of his character than what people normally get to see. It's like when a good attorney cross-examines a hostile witness and gets them to reveal more than they intended.
I frankly don't give a crap whether I like the presidential candidate or not, no more than I care if I like my mechanic or my plumber or my general contractor or even my surgeon if I need one. I just want someone competent who can focus and is most knowledgeable for the job. Obama leaves me unimpressed in that regard.
pongo @ 115:
Can someone explain this to me ...........
How can anyone believe a 70-something year old GOP douchebag , ever be considered "the best vote for change" ??????????????
Change what ?
His fucking Depends ?
Yes, Edwards won the debate. And poor Hillary, who tears up when she thinks of how difficult it is for her to campaign, can sure dish it out. What a fishwife...
Lone Rogue @ 35:
This is why Obama has so much support. He smears shit in Clinton's face, but has a big, toothy smile while he does it and people lap it up. Americans hate lawyers and believe Wal-Mart is entirely evil, so Clinton working for Wal-Mart in the eighties means that she must have been screwing over the Little Guy.
Obama is pandering and it's absolutely transparent to those with half a brain, and by the sounds of the audience, a good number of them were willing to boo him for his cheap shot at a woman who has been involved in politics and public life since she was only thirteen years old.
I refuse to enter endless debates here, because I've done so in the past and there's no point in it. I won't defend everything Clinton has done, is doing, or will do. But what is held against her is entirely irrational in the same way that Larry the Cable Guy fans think all intellectuals are stuck-up f****ts who don't love America.
Straight Shooter @ 117:
I don't get it, though. I agree with everything you have said, and have thought the same thing myself when I was more rational than frustrated. But tonight, after Clinton asked a question (even if she misrepresented what Barack said), it was Barack Obama who immediately used an ad hominem attack, but it's Clinton that people blame for being "divisive." In reality, Barack's campaign is rooted in divisive concepts wherein he throws many Democrats under the bus for being a part of the old guard and not the hip and new generation of youngsters who are going to take over Washington and its "entrenched" interests.
It would be nice if Obama would run against Hillary Clinton and not run against Bill Clinton
Insipid @ 108:
He's talking about taping into attitudes of voters, not praising the result of Regan's dismantling. Try and READ sometime.
I finally got to watch parts of it, both streaming and via clips here and elsewhere. If Obama gets the nomination, Hillary would be an incredible sparring partner to help him in debates with the Republican nominee; but right now, her distortions of his record and statements are not helping. Maybe she's trying to bait him into saying "There you go again..." :)
Edwards looked *much* better to me than he has in the past, not just because of his answers, but because (in the part I saw) he's no longer arching his eyebrows in that "I'm so sincere" way that has always bugged me. He's too pretty; his eyebrows should be neutral to frowning. (Very shallow of me, I know, I'm just saying.)
Watching this presidential campaign from Canada is quite a show! Much better than the super bowl! As many other people from all around the world, we would all like to see the first woman president or the first black president! But what we would wish you and the entire world more... is a President that makes sense! Someone who trully stands for something great, with values. and vocabulary for a change! Unfortunately... Clinton and Obama, aside from being poster girl and boy for gender and race, are not really convincing! All rhetorics. Pardon my english, I'm french canadian! McCain, Thompson, Huckabee, Romney, and Gulianni all look fresh out of a big bowl of mixed nuts! Wouldn't it be great To see Edwards as President and Ron Paul as vice President! unfortunately your political system is too screwed up for it to ever happen! I'm afraid if it continues this way, the world will end up with Hitler McCain policing the world and bringing the United States to bankruptcy!
I think since Edwards probably isnt going to win, he should show up at a major debate in drag and in blackface. It would totally break the ice I think
Shawnmeat @ 120:
You believe I'm being "irrational" by holding Hillary's voting for the Iraq war resolution and Kyl-Liberman against her ?
Or that she has zero grasp of economics or how to go about repairing America's screwed up health system ?
Come on C&L, or rather C&P...Really? "Take the gloves off?" You are really just going to rip off, word for cliched fucking word, the same exact thing that every brainless m$m news channel has said about every fucking debate for the past 6 months? Wow, very dissapointing. You have now lowered yourselves to CNN, Faux, and GENBC standards.
Oh, and btw, there was a third person in the debate who, absolutely shined against his competitors, and that name is Edwards. Clinton and Obama stuttered and stalled over their answers, generally looking pretty silly against the stronger candidate, John Edwards.
Jesse @ 123:
I did read it. You are simply a true believer who'd rather believe a myth than your own damn lying eyes.
Filthy Harry @ 126:
Can someone get this man a job as a writer for SNL?
What pissed me off was that when a DEBATE actually broke out in the middle of this scripted mainstream-media controlled event, Blitzer kept interrupting to get it back on the script.
I debated in college and what these networks call a debate is ridiculous. A group session of Meet the Press is not a debate. So I was happy when they actually engaged in each other. Timing the answers is totally legitimate but trying to direct everything with a moderator just stifles the conversation.
I don't see how defending your record and pointing out FACTS (she was on the corporate board of Wal-Mart at that time) qualifies as "mudslinging."
I heard Obama's comment about Reagan and the Republicans as a party of ideas and it was clear that he wasn't supporting their policies. Hillary and Bill deliberately misrepresented what he said and that is why he got pissed. Rightfully so.
Edwards seemed totally out of his league, whining about not being part of the debate. Then he tries to capitalize on their dispute by acting as if he is above the fray. He mischaracterized Obama's statement on Reagan too. If I hear about his damn mill-working father one more time I'm gonna sit these debates out until he's gone.
Obama clearly dominated this debate.
jwrjr @ 122:
tell that to bill
Insipid @ 129:
I think you've got to take that label off my jacket and stick it on your own pal. If you really believe a life long democrat is some sort of closet republican, you are a bigger fool than your candidate.
Shawnmeat @ 121:
You said in an additional post, "Americans hate lawyers." People forget that Obama is also a lawyer. His brown-nosing of Reagan was clear as a bell in its intent, but sufficiently vague in its verbiage that people can argue until the end of time what he really meant, while he bides his time, sticks his finger in the wind, sees which way it's blowing, and then he bothers to explain himself, somewhat.
It's late, I'm shutting this computer down, but basically my problem with Obama is that his character is much, much less than the sum of his parts.
Filthy Harry @ 126:
and this would help how
How is it not obvious that not only is an Edwards/Obama an absolute lock against any other ticket with out the name Gore on it, but giving Obama the executive experience would almost lock him up for the next run?
Edwards/Obama '08 equals potentially locked up 16 years of solid, good, and true Democratic leadership.
coleshack @ 20:
Yes and no. Obama demonstrated that he can talk about a new kind of politics all he likes, but in the end he'll go to the old kind of politics to win. He started slinging the mud in that exchange.
If Edwards were in Obama's position he would do likewise.
Hillary missed a golden opportunity to slam Obama as well, when Obama said he wasn't sure who he was running against Hillary could have come back with a lot of good (nasty) retorts:
- Maybe you should pay more attention to what's going on
- What? Your staff didn't hand you that paper two seconds before coming out for the debate
KKKaT @ 43:
you are so pathetic!
Looks like we are going to need a better moderator cuz Wolfie sucks. Why does Hillary get so much damn time? You got Edwards asking, no pleading for Wolfie to give him some time. I love that fact that Hillary gets booed.
Hillary is complaining about Obama supporting the war? Come on, she is just as guilty.
Obama had the nice quip in response to Hillary saying "Bill isn't standing up here I am" "Well sometimes I can't tell who I am running against" That got a big round of applause. She uses that same tired line all the time, but then sends him out on the talk show circuit.
BOOO Hillary.
OBAMA EDWARDS '08
Kind of cheap of Sen. Clinton. A phrase about people who live in glass houses comes to mind.
ms b @ 132:
ditto
Agent Provocateur @ 136:
Until the Republicans cook up some meaningless issue to attack Edwards or Obama on and gets one of them impeached.
Barack Obama is just sickening. He's trying to get sympathy by whining that Bill & Hill are ganging up on him. What a twerp! He's always whining about something, first race, now it's not fair that Hil has a former president campaigning for her. WHAT? Obama didn't know that going in? If he can't tell who he's running against maybe he's just no smart enough for the job.
He's trying to get the Democratic nomination by dissing the Clintons. It's all he's got.
AJ @ 131:
Just as it's not wrong to point out the FACTS that Obama had a relationship with a slum lord and that he appeared to get a 300k discount off of his house because of it. Just as it's perfectly ok to point out the fact that Barack praised Reagan, claimed that Reagan was a unifying figure (rather than the devisive piece of excrement he really was) and that he claimed the Republican's were the party of "ideas" for the past 30 years. While no, he didn't say good ideas, the statement certainly seemed praiseworthy by any standards.
Cantor de Mambo @ 140:
LOL!
Kind of cheap by Obama with the slam about Hillary sitting on the Walmart board. You start slinging mud, don't be surprised when the other person slings back...
Hillary missed a golden opportunity to slam Obama as well, when Obama said he wasn't sure who he was running against Hillary could have come back with a lot of good (nasty) retorts:
- Maybe you should pay more attention to what's going on
- What? Your staff didn't hand you that paper two seconds before coming out for the debate
and that would prove what
Swashbuckler @ 137:
I totally agree with you on the missed opportunity. But, she had been hitting him pretty hard and it was a black audience so maybe she figured why bother? Like I said, he didn't know going in that her husband was a former president? Duh!
Insipid @ 144:
Yep. Too bad Hillary couldn't use the best come back there is to that: it depends on what the meaning of is is... ;-)
AJ @ 131:
Obama claimed that Ronnie Retard :
Yeah , he's correct ; Ronnie Retard brought us to the shitty place we currently are.
He made it possible for the current moron fouling the Oval Office to become president.
He took a country screwed by Nixon and Ford's bullshit claim of "healing" , and set us on a 1-way course to rhetorical bullshit and GOP mythology........
And the GOP has been singularly responsible since Ronnie Retard's garbage presidency , for expanding the government like never before......Obama's an idiot if he is trying to claim anything else.............
Insipid @ 144:
Okay, someone needs a history book. Regan's re-ellection, 1984: ALL BUT ONE STATE VOTED FOR HIM! You may hate his policies and his paranoia about communism, but you can't say he wasn't a unifier.
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